1 of 3: Why the Bible is better when read from the secular perspective (ex: Book of Job)

[JohnTheHutDweller]

I agree

[JarOfRats]

Not a fan of the ladies, are you...

[ToddAllenGates]

@JarOfRats

> Not a fan of the ladies, are you

I LOVE ladies (including my wife of 23 years). Not sure what this has to do with this video though ...

[TheBratcat1]

i'm glad to be MUSLIM.

Quran has no mistake.

i'm blessed to be a muslim.

[matthewtaylorbrown]

@TheBratcat1 Good for you, that will be great right up to the moment you die. Which, I hope, is when you are over 100 years old.

[1984vrs]

It's not a modern American fiction story book. The Bible is and always has been a religious text.

[ToddAllenGates]

@1984vrs

> The Bible is and always has been a religious text.

Agreed.

Judging it against the standards of good literature is just a format to discuss the reasons for the Bible's lack of credibility as a coherent religious text: the inherent contradictions of an Omnipotent Being experiencing "conflict," the unbelievability of Satan deciding to challenge Omnipotence, the way the Bible's characters fail to solve their problems as efficiently as real people would, etc.

[1984vrs]

@ToddAllenGates I see your point. But I mean that it;s not supposed to be a compelling story like the Jungle or Dracula. It is meant to be a spiritual guide from the theological perspective. Things like freewill, to choose good or evil, are the human qualities in the story. Satan's challenge to G-d is for the souls of man. So things like the war in heaven are allegorical poetry.

[ToddAllenGates]

@1984vrs

1 of 4:

> I mean that it's not supposed to be a compelling story like the Jungle or Dracula.

I find that the Bible *is* compelling in many ways . . . "compellingness" is not necessarily an area in which I feel its credibility is damaged. It's just that many of the Bible's conflicts depend on characters "suffering conflicts" for the sake of drama alone.

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 4:

Take Yahweh during the flood story: an Omniscient God would have KNOWN that humans were going to sin, so He there would be no reason to say "I regret that I made man" (Gen 6:7). And an Omnipotent and Benign God would have no reason to use such a crude method—one involving massive collateral damage—as drowning all living things (no exceptions for pandas or puppies).

[ToddAllenGates]

3 of 4:

But from the perspective that ancient man experienced a local flood and thought the angry gods were flooding the whole earth, well, then the story becomes completely coherent. That is, if we assume man alone wrote these stories, everything makes sense.

But if we take the position that an Omnipotent Omniscient Higher Power inspired these stories, we have to do a lot of creative—even tortuous—interpretations to try to shoehorn these ancient tales into something Divine & Benign.

[ToddAllenGates]

4 of 4:

> Things like freewill, to choose good or evil, are the human qualities in the story.

We can find similar qualities in stories in the scriptures of other religions: and non-religious texts as well. So yes, conflicts such as our desires for selfish gain vs. care for the community is an ageless problem, one that people have written about for thousands of years. The Greek myths contain these themes too, but that doesn't mean the tales were inspired by the gods.

[1984vrs]

@ToddAllenGates I see your perspective.

[PhatLarkin]

I'm not getting the maximum capacity thing w/Jesus. I mean, especially with the fig tree. I've read that as being a performance piece prophesy. It wasn't budding in the off season by the time it should be, showing it would never bud, so god cursed it to whither. (Duno if the budding thing is true) I could take a gun and shoot a man over a land dispute, but EVEN if I could get away with it I wouldn't. I wouldn't be working at maximum capacity, but it wouldn't make the writing bad or thoughtless.

[ToddAllenGates]

@PhatLarkin

> I've read that as being a performance piece prophesy

I feel that people can use their creativity to make the story *look* like it's meaningful ... but I can't help see the story as simply weak.

> I wouldn't be working at maximum capacity [shooting a man over a dispute], but it wouldn't make the writing bad

If you could find a more efficient way to solve the problem, I think it *would* make the writing bad (unless you wanted to show the character as unnecessarily violent).

[alexross8]

There is meaning in the bible.

For what Jesus doesn't do , there is reason behind it.

For example , he was riding on an ass , which would be embarrassing.

He could have gotten a nice horse , but he chose the ass.

One reason why he chose the ass , is to show humility.

Showing humility was a messianic prophecy.

There are a lot of good reasons behind the life of Jesus.

The bible isn't supposed to be taken as a story , that is why it has a bad storyline.

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 2:

@alexross8

> The bible isn't supposed to be taken as a story, that is why it has a bad storyline

Point taken—but believers often refer to the Bible as "the greatest story ever told." And when one day I read a book on how to write good realistic fiction, it made me think about the bible and all the ways it falls into the "bad fiction" category.

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 2:

(1) There's no compelling reason for the main protagonist (an All-Powerful God) to experience conflict

(2) Satan is a two-dimensional bad guy

(3) The Bible's characters do not operate at maximum capacity: instead of solving their problems as cleverly and efficiently as they can, they behave unrealistically for the sake of forced (unnecessary) conflict/drama.

[hobbitsarecool]

you kind of look like Itsthesuperfly.

[ToddAllenGates]

@hobbitsarecool

> you kind of look like Itsthesuperfly.

Ha-ha -- my wife said the same thing!

[babyblueeyes1963]

for someone who has sight and cannot see should be made blind!

[chrisnu]

Great kalsolarUK impression. My favorite video of his (and another example of God not operating at maximum capacity) is "The Divine Justice of God All Smitey".

[ToddAllenGates]

> Great kalsolarUK impression.

Thank you!

[morthim]

wow... well said

[ToddAllenGates2]

> wow... well said

Thanks Leny!

[STFUNOWlol]

In all seriousness though, this is an excellent critique of the bible. Never seen it done from a literary standpoint before.

[ToddAllenGates]

> this is an excellent critique of the bible.

Thanks!

[STFUNOWlol]

Man, no conflict, no antagonist, 2d-characters.... it's like this book was written in the bronze age!!

[kaminarigaston]

I always saw the fig tree story not as a silly display of power but as a parable of sorts. It's Jesus' way of telling us that those who don't bear the fruits of the spirit will be crushed. But that just makes it worse, just like fig trees can't give fruit every season, humans can't stop sinning. It's human nature. And it's unreasonable for a god that should be able to give us a better nature to punish us for being as he created us.

[kaminarigaston]

It's like Jesus saying "I give a fuck if things are flawed because I wanted them to be so, that won't stop ME from punishing them. I'm the strongest guy in the block and if I want to make things just to hate and torture them, and if i want to blame them for being as I made them I will do so. And I will be right because I say what's right or wrong. And I say that whatever I do is right, however contradictory, self-defeating or pointless.

[ToddAllenGates]

> it's unreasonable for a god that should be able to give us a better nature to punish us for being as he created us

It's about as reasonable as designing a fruit tree to be seasonable, and then cursing it in anger for its inability to bear year-long fruit!

[kalsolarUK]

Its not written as a parable though - its written as something that took place (not that I believe for one moment that it actually did). It may have been meant as a parable by those who made the story up...but they made the mistake of writting it as something that really happened. I don't think that jesus (if he lived) went through life acting out parables, without telling anyone they were parables in the hopes they would be written up and decifered as such one day. lol.

[kaminarigaston]

@ToddAllenGates

Yeah, that's my point

@kalsolarUK

It looks like an acted out parable, who knows if the one who writed it down was the one who came up with it. Maybe it was a legend that was going around by that time. It's a great story anyway, at leas it has great comedic value.

[buzzausa]

Great Austin Powers reference.

Moving on to part 2! :D

[tdcr1986]

I totally agree with your ideologies.

[Domzdream]

I loved Raw. And Delirious. Both Eddie Murphy shows. I thought Raw was even better though. He starts talking about Haff! (half). And Mfufu, the crazy zebra bitch with a bone in her nose and a big fucked up affro ha ha.

[ToddAllenGates]

I loved Raw. And Delirious.

Likewise—they're up there with the great classics of comedy.

[Darwinsgift]

Great stuff! I agree that Kal should have a larger following!

[ToddAllenGates]

> Great stuff!

Thanks!

> I agree that Kal should have a larger following!

I'm doing what I can to spread the Gospel of Kal!

[ChrisJMoor]

This is going to be an enjoyable series I think. You are actually managing to convince me to open the book at read it, something that few religious people ever manage because they sell it the wrong way.

[ToddAllenGates]

> This is going to be an enjoyable series

Thanks!

> You are actually managing to convince me to open the book at read it

You just have to hunt around a bit to find the good parts!

A book I recommend as a guideline: "GOOD BOOK: The Bizarre, Hilarious, Disturbing, Marvelous and Inspiring Things I Learned When I Read Every Single Word of the Bible" by David Plotz. (See my channel for my video review.)

[sheepwshotguns]

KalSolarUK is really hilarious, he deserves about 20,000 more subscribers.

[ToddAllenGates]

> KalSolarUK is really hilarious, he deserves about 20,000 more subscribers.

Agreed!

[AlmightyAtheismo]

Same here.

Good vid, by the way.

I say this about the Bible all the time.

The Iliad is still better though.

[ToddAllenGates]

> The Iliad is still better though

Yes--no contest!

[dieyou2000]

Daniel Quinn does a wonderful job of explaining the story of Genesis and Cain and Abel.  Just check out his Ishmael series.

[ToddAllenGates]

> check out his Ishmael series

Will do: thanks!

[jbrowsingj]

I agree, after reading the story of adam and eve from a secular perspective, I found an extremely beautiful commentary on the struggle between knowledge and happiness.

[ToddAllenGates]

> after reading the story of adam and eve from a secular perspective ...

Agreed: *much* of it is greatly improved when you don't have to interpret it all from the perspective of Yahweh being an Omnipotent Loving god.

[8WholeThing]

Loved the impression! I've begun to think the Book of Mark was written as an excuse for why the Messiah never returned. Mark ends with the women being afraid to tell. The Disciples never really get who Jesus was Jesus curses the tree, throws his temple tantrum, then they see the tree withered. It is foreshadowing for the destruction of the temple and Judea when God gives up on the Hebrews. Matthew and Luke found it necesssary to improve the story.

[ToddAllenGates]

> Loved the impression!

Thanks!

> Matthew and Luke found it necessary to improve the story.

I think they could have taken the editing a bit further!

[unassumption]

It's still badly written...when it's translated multiple times.

ROFLING at your Kalsaur UK impression XD

[ToddAllenGates]

> It's still badly written

Only *most* of it . . . there are still some good parts (I discuss one in parts 2 & 3).

> ROFLING at your Kalsaur UK impression XD

Thanks!

[CognosSquare]

Elisha can do all the tricks of Jesus (raise the dead, heal the sick, etc.). Here he cures a leper, but only after the leper dips himself seven times in the Jordan.

2 Kings 5:14

Elisha makes an iron ax head swim.

2 Kings 6:6

[8WholeThing]

In Acts 5:15, Peter's shadow heals people.

[CognosSquare]

:) no sacrifice of livestock needed? No bathing 7 times? It almost seems straightforward.

[kalsolarUK]

The bible can in someways be likened to to watching a James Bond movie. You suspend your disbelief in order to accept the larger-than-life Bond Character's exploits and actions. So you take it at face value and don't really dig deeper into the plot. But then as soon as you analyze these plots and adventures and villains more closely it all falls to pieces in front of your eyes.

Incidentally - loved the impression! (Even if I did have to watch through my fingers) lol.

[ToddAllenGates]

> You suspend your disbelief in order to accept the larger-than-life Bond

Or the Wayans brothers' "White Chicks"—once you suspend disbelief that everyone would be fooled by the Wayans brothers' disguise as two attractive blonds, it's a funny movie.

> Incidentally - loved the impression!

As I mentioned to others, I almost scrapped that part—glad I kept it!

> (Even if I did have to watch through my fingers)

I can see how that would have improved it!

[ebaltrace]

Very good comment.

Ebal the Atheist

[CHAS1422]

Your recent biblical critiques are among the best on youtube. There are also some compelling moments in the new testament that reveal powerful changes in human morality. Jesus was a literary vehicle for expressing these changes. For example, when the author has Jesus forgiving an adultress, thus saving her from being stoned.

Being secular allows you to try to see through the eyes of the authors and try to decipher their influences and intent, rather than focus on the characters they created.

[8WholeThing]

"For example, when the author has Jesus forgiving an adultress, thus saving her from being stoned."

That story was an "improvement" added a few hundred years later.

[CHAS1422]

I've heard that that was an addendum added later, which is further proof that the story was an evolving syncretic faith with many contributors. Christ was sort of a supernatural superhero. Inventing and developing religions was a favorite pastime and profession in the ancient middle east.

[ToddAllenGates]

> Your recent biblical critiques are among the best on youtube.

TOO kind, but thanks!!!

[kalsolarUK]

I have to agree with Chas1422 - From my perspective what makes your critiques particularly useful is that you have a knack for exploring scripture and looking at it in ways that expose anomolies and weaknesses that would often breeze right by many (including me! lol).

[ToddAllenGates]

> you have a knack for exploring scripture and looking at it in ways that expose anomolies and weaknesses that would often breeze right by many

But likewise for you: it's your videos that drew my attention to Jesus' "victory over the fig tree" and the insight that if Jesus really was who he said he was, he could well have turned off his pain receptors (unless he was a masochist and *wanted* the pain—but again, that's hardly a reason to pity him).

[ebaltrace]

My favorite...Numbers 22:28-29 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.

The donkey talks and Balaam answers the donkey like a talking donkey is a normal occurence.

The conversation is inappropriate to human experience.

Ebal the Atheist

[ToddAllenGates]

> The conversation [between human and donkey] is inappropriate to human experience.

KalSolarUK has a video on this one too. His comment - "Am I reading the Word of God or friggin' Shrek???"

[ebaltrace]

Really great!

The problem is that there are grown-ups who really believe the Donkey and Balaam had a conversaton.

Ebal the Atheist

[zarkoff45]

I always considered the cursing of the fig tree to be a veiled threat to people -- tie it to "by their fruits you shall know them."

[Cafeeine]

Seeing your comment made me draw a very uncomfortable correlation to the fig leafs traditionally used to cover the 'fruit' in pictures.

[gigantibyte]

Interesting perspective. However, one has to wade through a lot of preachy parts in the Bible to get to the story parts. I think I'd rather read Sarah Palin's new book. I'll contend myself with your video report on the matter.

Thanks for pointing out KalSolarUK. Figgin' hilarious!  Your impression wasn't too bad.

[ToddAllenGates]

> one has to wade through a lot of preachy parts in the Bible to get to the story parts.

Quite true! I actually find that children's versions of the bible are superior to the original: they cut out the boring parts and the flagrant contradictions.

> Thanks for pointing out KalSolarUK. Figgin' hilarious!

I'm pleased to be able to spread the Gospel of Kal!

[Eddiethepizzaboy]

I hope part 2 is coming quickly, that was one of the best videos iv seen about the bible in ages, i'v read bits of the bible as a kid in sunday school, never read it cover to cover though.

Might give it a read, see what its like......must be pretty good if millions believe its real.

Star Wars is pretty good and you see people joining the jedi religion!

Religion with a soundtrack by John Williams, i think this one might have a shot of growing.

May the force be with you.

[ToddAllenGates]

> that was one of the best videos I've seen about the bible in ages,

Thank you!

[Misterb0z]

Ah, brilliant! 5 stars for the KalSolarUK impression alone!

[ToddAllenGates]

> 5 stars for the KalSolar UK impression alone!

As I mentioned to julzabro, I almost left that part out (my rehearsals of it sounded more Australian than British) - glad you liked it!

[julzabro]

I've even felt that a secular read of the Bible actually propels the main points or meaning therein. Obviously, Jesus not using His power (if one considered it) is as a means to push the plan through. This shows a much more covert Jesus than that of religious thought.

[julzabro]

Great KalSolar impression!!! LOL! Just checkin in with u, Todd! I haven't got your books yet but I'm about to. Also, I agree that the secular Bible read actually delivers more.

[kalsolarUK]

I really enjoyed reading his "Dialogue with a Christian Prostheletizer" book. An excellent one to have on the shelf.

[julzabro]

Definitely one I want to get as well as some others he's done. And, btw, I'm still waiting for a KalSolar Does the Bible complete series DVD....;)

[ToddAllenGates]

> Great KalSolar impression!!!

I almost didn't include that part - my first few tries sounded more Austrialian than British - glad you liked it!

> I haven't got your books yet but about to

Thanks: hope you like the book as much as the video! (That is, most of my videos are based on my book.)