The free will defense of evil VS the story of Exodus

[RobTheMonk8]

You mention one of my chief complaints about the "objective morality" christians claim to have tapped into: in their "objective morality" many people can be punished for one man's and one man can be punished for everyone's. I find this to be such a revolting ethical position. And I find it ironic that this is accepted by the same religious right that demands that minorities and the poor take responsibility for their own plight, while simultaneously professing this vicarious-punishment ethic.

[NemoUtopian]

i always doubt someone's "objective morality" when it does not even remotely match up to the principle of "let the punishment fit the crime"

[RobTheMonk8]

Hell, it's sufficient cause to berate a relativist :D

[thepentecostaltruth]

God hardened the Pharaoh's Heart all those times 2 show the Israelites his power and what He could do if they didn't follow him He put all of these things on Egypt. He speared the Israelites when He killed the First born and after that the Egyptians got so sick of them they pritty much said get out of here. God has his reasons 2 do things we question his will because of the sin within us. God has a plan for all those that follow him great things mighty things 2 claim these things we follow him

[thepentecostaltruth]

Ya we do have good and evil choices Follow God go 2 Heaven don't follow God go 2 Hell. going 2 Heaven does mean u need 2 live a life Jesus lead Holy. I can see that u don't really understand what God does im not calling you dumb or any thing im saying we live in sin right now because Satan tempted Adom&Eve in the Garden of Eden. with out the teaching of the Holy Ghost our human minds can't comprehend Gods will. ur making God ur enemy whose ur friend then Satan the one that wants to kill u?

[thepentecostaltruth]

GOD is our creator!!! which means we are the created!! which means we shouldn't get a choice in anything but thankfully God actually gives us a choice which He really doesn't have to it sound wrong to those that don't have the truth because everyone just wants to live life for themselves. and the bible tells of the mistakes of those that disobeyed him and the victory he gave to those that did. everyone wants to find wrong in Gods perfect will. for someone that hates god u sure know the bible!

[marcus033090]

The "choice" God gives us is such a hoax... He might as well put a gun to your head and let you "choose" to worship him or not...

[gambleor]

Actually the Pharaoh's heart was hardened through the matching of the plagues by his own magicians.Pharaoh needed reassurance that he still had the upper hand and that is what led to his heart being hardened until Egypt was struck with the death of the firstborn, Pharaoh's magicians matched every plague.

[gambleor]

In essence, whether the story actually happened or not, it tells us more about the condition of the ego when corrupted by power and the overwhelming affect of persistence from a group of peoples who are unified than it does about the matter of free will or the character of God.

[NemoUtopian]

i disagree,it tells us more about the hearts and minds of the isrealite people.the whole story is snuff porn that exhibits nothing of morality or justice

[NemoUtopian]

that pretty much sounds like it was pulled straight from your nethers.god said in advance he would harden Pharaohs heart,and there was no mention of it having anything to do with Pharaoh's magicians.also the magicians did not match every plague,they failed after matching the first few

[gambleor]

Exodus 3:18. "The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.'

19. But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.

[gambleor]

God makes the primary implication that Pharaoh was already hardened to the idea.

[NemoUtopian]

i would not expect a tyrant to give up slaves to some nobody off the street ,but it is rather clearly stated that god interferes with his decisions after each event with one exception,the murders of the firstborn.

[washingtonmutual123]

well not really God didnt literally come down from heaven and write in the bible humans did. God told humans what to write but does that necessarily mean that they didnt interpret things to their lifestyle or mindset at the time.

[NemoUtopian]

Ex.7:3, 13, 9:12, 10:1, 20, 27, 11:10, 14:4, 8.god says in advance that he will harden pharaohs heart,and it is repeatedly stated that he does harden Pharaohs heart,not that Pharaoh hardens his own heart.

it is not just implied that god hardens pharaohs heart,it is explicitly stated.

[gambleor]

Actually Ex. 7:13 doesn't say that God hardened Pharoah's heart.Read it again.You've also left out verses 8:15,8:19,8:32,9:7 and 9:34 which states that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

[gambleor]

To complicate things more,you have to remember that the books weren't written by one author so you have multiple theologies within the same text based on the perspective of the writer...it's much more difficult to understand than most people think.

[washingtonmutual123]

i like your way of thinking : )

[cheddar07]

the bible and scriptures are nothing more than a long line of stringed books that taime and time again contradict each other the entire thing is full of redundancy

[AVTPro]

Please reread the story. Pharaoh was first to harden his own heart. Pharaoh heart was already harden. Pharaoh had already refused to let the people go. Pharaoh already wouldn't not agree. God just hardened it more. This made it a perfect situation to show, that no matter how hard you heart is, God will still win.

[NemoUtopian]

sorry,but your statement is utter rubbish.yes Pharaoh was a dick,but if he would already not agree,then there is no reason for god to harden his heart.

[AVTPro]

Utter rubbish?? LoL. That's an extreme opinion. Gosh. Talk about hard hearts. Your statement is a classical example hard heart. Look in the bible. See if it says Pharoah was first to be hard hearted and God just gave him the desires of his heart.

[NemoUtopian]

yes utter rubbish.your comment contributes nothing other then incoherent knee jerk apologetic.you can accuse me of having a hard heart if it so pleases,but so far all i see is you having a hard head and a mushy brain.god violates Pharaoh's free will...so he could make him do what he would have done anyway?so he deprives him of responsibility for the choice he would have made anyway,so god can prove that he can exercise omnipotent power pointlessly?again rubbish.

[AVTPro]

Kind of mean spirit, I choice not argue. God Bless.

[ShaundalynChic]

God made a covenant with the nation of Israel (Abraham's descendants). He was their protector and they were his chosen people. they voluntarily gave up some of their free will to gain his direct leadership. Thus he led them out of Eygpt with a fiery cloud, knocked down the walls of Jericho, dropped manna from heaven to eat, etc. Israel promised to follow him and obey his commandments.

[NemoUtopian]

in addition to your statement not really making any sort of inherent sense,it does not even touch upon god interfering with Pharaoh's free will,which is what i was asking about.

[ShaundalynChic]

So God forced him to make one decision. It isn't like Pharaoh is a robot his whole life or something. The interference with that decision directly had an impact on Israel, which God had a special interest in and plans for. This fit with those plans.

[NemoUtopian]

"So God forced him to make one decision"such a casual dismissal of free will.and at any rate it was not just"one decision".god did not force him to drink coke instead of pepsi,god forced him into disobeying a command by god in order to torment and murder the citizens,slaves,and livestock of Egypt."it was for Isreal"?what?so long as it is for Isreal one is justified in raping freewill in order to torment an entire nation?

[ShaundalynChic]

"god forced him into disobeying a command by god"

Hunh? How is a second order countermanding a first one "disobeying"? Free will is a gift from God, his to take if he wants.

[NemoUtopian]

except he did not give a second order saying"ignore what moses just said",he gave a command and then did not allow the one so commanded to follow it.then god punished not just the one so ordered for disobeying a command he was prevented from obeying by god himself,but others as well.

[NemoUtopian]

"Free will is a gift from God,his to take if he wants"if it can be taken away it is a privilege and not a gift.a gift is what is freely given with no expectations of return.and is it also ok for god to harm someone for something god made him do?and to harm others for something they did not do at all?

[ShaundalynChic]

"and to harm others for something they did not do at all?"

If you notice people all over the earth get harmed for stuff they didn't do. It is part of the experience of life, so you can appreciate the afterlife. Seeing good and evil, fairness and unfairness, war and peace, happiness and sorrow, is a big part of why we are here. So then call free will a privilege that God grants, but could take away if he wanted.

[NemoUtopian]

sounds like what you are saying is god is neither fair nor just,good to hear since i agree.and again,he took away that free will solely to provide a flimsy excuse to torment and kill.you honestly think such a thing is just?you think it would be ok to lock someone in a jail cell,then tell him if he does not leave that locked jail cell you will kill his firstborn son,then go out and kill his firstborn son because he will not leave the room you have locked him in?

[ShaundalynChic]

Did you miss where the Israelites were enslaved? Where Moses had to defend an Isrealite who was being beaten? The Egyptians who "made their lives bitter with hard bondage"? Did you miss this in Exodus 1:15: "And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, ... And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, ... if it be a son, then ye shall kill him"? Yet you say God was unfair to Eygpt and its Pharoah? God returned to give Pharoah what Pharoah was dishing out to Israel.

[NemoUtopian]

so two wrongs make a right?where all Egyptians resposible for the actions of their unelected god-king tyrant?i am pretty sure the infants and children at least were not.

[ShaundalynChic]

"where all Egyptians resposible for the actions of their unelected god-king tyrant?"

I don't see the Egyptians opposing their leadership. Egypt had done wrong to Israel. God punished Egypt for it. He wasn't going to let them get away with it by just finally letting Israel go. Not without punishing them first for what they had done. Collective punishment, for sure, but that happens when nations fight. Kids in Japan and Germany were killed in WWII.

[NemoUtopian]

collective punishment is not what happens when nations fight,at least not as we have strived for civilization.

in fact the intentenal targeting of civilians is considered a war crime.

[NemoUtopian]

kids in japan and germany died because of collateral damage,something that happens due to our finite limitations as human beings,and something we have striven to limit.we build smart bombs in no small part in order to avoid such killings.god has no such excuse for faulty aim,much less willfuly targeting children.

[NemoUtopian]

in fact an activity like the murder of firstborn children would be considered terrorism in any civilized land.you might find an osama bin laden out there that would be eager to do such a thing,but few outside his level of low character.yet your god not only did such a thing,but bent over backwards in order to do so.nice chap.

[ShaundalynChic]

Again he kills everyone. He isn't the same as a human, he is the creator of humans. You are singling out the Egyptians as if they are different, but he requires that everyone die.

[NemoUtopian]

equivocating god sending out a hit-angel after infants and children with random heart attacks and chariot mishaps is the height of intellectual dishonesty.hurricanes caused by the cooling of the earths crust are not the same thing as god putting out a hit on every firstborn in a nation in order to cause their parents pain.all lives ending in death does not make all deaths the same.your deranged straw man that i am trying to exclude the Egyptians from the natural order is drivel.

[ShaundalynChic]

The Egyptians had tried to kill every firstborn male of the Israelites. Exodus 1:15. The Israelites were God's people who he had made a covenant with to protect. He wasn't going to just have Israel leave and not respond to that attempt. He did to Eygpt what they tried to do to Israel. God regularly decides who lives and dies. He decided to visit on Eygpt what they had meant for Israel.

[NemoUtopian]

it is not like the isrealites can complain about slavery,they had it to.

it is not like god can claim slavery itself is wrong.he sanctions it in the bible.

[fatguy4491]

God is against revenge...what a hypocrite.

[ShaundalynChic]

God is against revenge...what a hypocrite."

Revenge implies you have hurt him and that isn't possible. God does dole out punishment in the OT to those who oppose him. That isn't the same as revenge.

[fatguy4491]

that is revenge but in this case its not him but the jewish people hes taking up for and im wondering why for some reason god likes jews better than the rest of us. seeing as they are his chosen people.

[ShaundalynChic]

"im wondering why for some reason god likes jews better than the rest of us. seeing as they are his chosen people"

First, the nation of Israel and its prophets were preparing the way for Jesus to come to the world. They were chosen as the people who would hear and record the words of God and the prophecies of Jesus, through Israel's prophets. Only two men are referred to as "friends of God." They are Abraham and Moses. God made a covenant with Abraham about his descendants.

[ShaundalynChic]

Talking about Israel:

Exodus 19:5-6: "Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people. For all the earth is mine: and you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation".

Deuteronomy 7:6 "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth..."

[NemoUtopian]

even if you think it was ok to abuse Pharaoh's free will for Isreal,why not just make him say "yes i will let your people go",at least that (while still entirely dismissive of free will)would have had the advantage of sparing innocent lives.but instead he made him walk down a path that ended in the death of children and infants?

[ShaundalynChic]

"he made him walk down a path that ended in the death of children and infants"

You are under the impression those children and infants would have lived forever and not ever die? God kills everyone. Whether by disease, war, accident, old age or avenging angel, he kills us all. He doesn't spare any lives and doesn't look at death the way you do.

[NemoUtopian]

complete dodge of the question and you know it.

[ShaundalynChic]

No. To you avoiding the death of children and infants is one of the highest of priorities. It simply may not be as high a one to God.

[NemoUtopian]

to me justice is one of the highest of priorities,one would assume the same is true of god since he is supposed to be all just.one would think mercy might be one of his priorities since he is supposed to be all merciful.one would think that love would be one of his priorities as he is supposed to be all loving.one would think making up flimsy excuses to murder children would not be one of his priorities.and yes your answer was a dodge.

[CommonSpecies]

Free will, lol. Lucifer and 1/3 of fallen angels(now demons)had free will. And through time Lucifer became proud of himself and decided with a 1/3 of the angels he controlled to over power his own Creator. Lucifer now a rebel/satan was cast down to his throne(earth). 1/3 of God's family that rebelled. Sad, right? Lucifer lived the Good life and now knows both. Man 1st knows the bad life and after Christ returns will choose for eternity the Good life. The physical is temporary, spirit is forever.

[CommonSpecies]

Exodus 7:14, First of all it was Pharaoh's heart that was UNyielding throughout the plagues. It was Pharaoh's decisions that brought on the plagues. Exodus 10:1, this is when the Lord hardened his heart. And for what reason? Exodus 10:1-3. So even the Egyptians that saw miracles of a Higher Power before Exodus 10 was proof(for man)that the nature of man since Adam continues to be enmity towards his Creator. Gen3:4,5-Man now having takin the nature of Lucifer. Ezekiel 28:13-17.

[NemoUtopian]

"4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."sorry,but those are gods own words are they not?"BUT I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART,THAT HE SHALL NOT LET THE PEOPLE GO"that is a direct claim of god's action producing the result.

[CommonSpecies]

Exodus 4:21 harden-is from the Hebrew-chazaq-to cure, help, repair, conquer. In reference to Pharaoh it was/means to bring out Pharaoh's inherrit defiance. Pharaoh would have never let them go, no matter what, until Pharoah couldn't bear himself and his own defiance any longer. So emplying God "made" his heart harden is better said, God's actions will cure Pharoah's already natural hardened heart by bringing out Pharoah's nature, defiance. The more God did the more harden Pharoah became.

[NemoUtopian]

and of the definitions you give"conquer."most fits the context of the story."Pharaoh would have never let them go, no matter what"then their was no need to interfere if Pharaoh's resistance was what he desired.if you say that he would have refused anyhow,then that just makes god's interference with free will all that much more gratuitous.

[CommonSpecies]

I was just implying how defiant the Pharaoh was goning to be about the exodus. So how did God interfere with Pharaoh's free will ? Didn't Pharaoh have the choice to accept and submit or resist ? Didn't he also finally submit ? And then change his mind after the exodus ?

[NemoUtopian]

god clearly says he will harden Pharaoh's heart,and he does so repeatedly after the assorted plagues.

[NemoUtopian]

no such statement is made after the murders of the firstborn though,so it would appear that god does not interfere with his will immediately after that.

[NemoUtopian]

it does say that god hardens Pharaohs heart after they have left,causing him to pursue the isrealites.

[CommonSpecies]

The more God had done the more harden, unyielding Pharoah became. Thus the Lord hardened Pharoahs heart.

The Lord had also made it clear to Moses do all that was commanded. And be ready for or be expecting Pharaoh not to be fair or cooperate with you easily. The things commanded to do will harden Pharaoh's heart.

[NemoUtopian]

so when god says"i will do this"he is not saying "i will do this" but "Pharaoh will react so"i guess god just never means what he says then?sounds to me like you are tying your brains in knots in order to say that god does not say what god says

[Atheistblindchick]

I've always found that story quite disturbing... Great point and I hope you'll get an answer...

[NemoUtopian]

that story always reminded me of how some bullies will grab a smaller kids arm and smack them with it,all the while saying"why are you hitting yourself?".that story shows god at his most thuggish and bullying,and yet it was taught to me as a good story!