I was curious whether he would kill each one personally, or run them through some kind of Masada decimation method and kill the remainder. And would he do the 'hold their eyes open and yell at the sky' thing everytime, or just save one big one until the end?
Worf: "I'm ready to Captain, I've said .. goodbye to my descendants."
Sisko: "Oh Mr. Worf, good news. While you were away we took a vote and changed our minds."
I like this episode but it leaves me fealing angry at future Odo. He made 8000 people vannish just for 1 person. Because of this episode I kinda hate Odo's and Kira's love becouse this is how Kira found out Odo's love for her. I just feal like it's a mean spirited episode.
Why is it always a planet of white people? They never encounter a planet of dark-skinned people, or yellow-skinned or red-skinned. No, even in the future, the non-pale-skinned people are still the minority, thrown in there to meet a quota.
@ElveeKaye what the hell are you talking about? the planet was full of the crew's offspring... and if you are just trying to make a blanket statement for Trek in general, you'd be wrong as well.
Most of the characters on Star Trek are deliberately written as bland as possible. Sisko only acquired his characteristics as an African American, at the insistence of Avery Brooks, from the third season onward. La Forge never had a background beyond vague references to being born in the "African Confederation." Though I don't fault the writers for this because they can't write about experiences they have never had. And simply relying on stereotypes isn't a good idea.
I believe Gene was partially to blame for the "bland humans" ideal. The idea that humanity had evolved somehow with different ethics and standards of culture from ours. As for the writing, I don't see that as an excuse, if you can write an ALIEN species and culture consistantly in a non realistic genre (sci-fi), than it is possible to write people of different cultures realistically. It's called RESEARCH! It's why SF has such a bad reputation for hack writers: they fail to.
Alien cultures are easier to "accurately" represent precisely because they are fictional. You can reboot or retcon any inconsistencies (e.g. the Klingon forehead ridge problem). It is a lot more complicated with humans. Research is a good starting point. Whether archives can actually replace the actual experience is debatable though.
Well, writers in general can ASK people (or the actors themselves) or take in life experiences. We're not talking black ghettos in space or Islamic terrorism or anything that requires even a tiny amount of writing talent: we're talking about Star Trek! Even just hiring someone who could relate closer to the characters could be useful, but as cab be seen with Sisko, he doesn't start sprouting ebonics or doing weed, he has a relatable culture that is still futuristic.
Given any situation where saving a person in the present will prevent their a future self/descendant (encountered due to a timey whimey wibbly wobbly situation) from existing, the present selfs are IMO always more important than the future selfs. See also that Doctor Who episode where Amy Pond gets stuck for a few decades. The future selfs are only possibilities; the present selfs are actualities.
You're not going to comment on the ultra-gayness of the line, "Time is their enemy. We should help them defeat it"?!
And that was just the culmination of all the gay the Neo-Klingons had going on. What a pack of annoyingly self-righteous dipshits. Their little sect is like what would happen after 200 years if you stranded the population of Jonestown, the Amish and The Village People.
And their 'warrior code' sounds like it was written by the most badass Internet Tough Guy at Dragon Con.
@IRONMANAustralia I'M going to comment on your use of the word 'gay' as an insult. I don't know if you actually meant to disparage homosexuals in your use of it, but regardless of your intentions using the word in that way promotes homophobia and the open abuse of an entire group of people. Please don't do that.
@IRONMANAustralia That was uncalled for. nthoctave did not insult you (I believe) in any way.
Anyways, Worf was raised on Earth and/or an Earth colony by Humans. As Klingon as he wants to be, I don't think he could let himself kill those innocent children and followers, even if they asked him to. Killing Duras is one thing, but killing the "Sons of Worf" would completely go against his Starfleet code of ethics and weird semi-Klingon code of honor. It would haunt him for the rest of his days.
@IRONMANAustralia Well, gee. Now that I've been insulted by someone on the internet (with such brilliance and wit) I guess I should hang my head in shame. Once again, a reasoned plea for tolerance is met with ignorance and hate. I'm just trying to help create a world where teenagers don't kill themselves over all the harm caused by ignorant individuals such as yourself. One has to wonder why you even watch Star Trek because you have obviously missed the entire point of the show.
These are legitimate concerns. But there is very little one can say to a unrepentant bully. You can only have respectful disagreement with a person who is respectful.
@SciFi2285 I do realize this. My intent is to show others who may be going through something alone and in silence that someone is willing to stand up and say something. It is also to serve as a reminder to those who hold prejudices silently that if they do decide to share their hate with the world, someone is willing to stand up and say something back.
Funny, if I had the choice (Let's say our escape would alert enemies) I would say "We have to stay" but since those people will never have existed I would try to get off this planet
This is one of the few DS9 episodes I watched when it was new, and it has always left a mark on me. I think of what I'd do in that situation. Would I fullfill my own dreams at the expense of others, or would I give up my life for others? Which is right? Is there a right? I don't think it's that simple. The song "slow fade" says to stay on one side or the other. However, the entire world is tinted in grey. You just can't apply black or white thinking to everything and expect it to be okay.
For all the arguments made about all the descendents that would never be if the crew didn't deliberately maroon themselves, I often wondered why the argument was never made for all the descendants that would never be if they never got back to DS9.
@ThePolysyllabist I think they did make that argument at one point, but it was very quickly dismissed with a line like "but they don't exist yet, these people do".
But that's just temporal prejudice. Those descendants are just as real. They're just not around to be seen. The prophets see the future as no different from the present, and they would not see any difference between the two possible sets of descendants. Perhaps their perspective is more realistic and we're just biased linear beings.
As others have said, I'm suprised this merited only a 6. I thought it was worth a 7 or 8 myself, and your comments at the end of the review (excellent as always) seem to suggest a higher score too.
Thanks again for yet another wonderful, insightful review.
I thought Relm of Fear was this weeks. Etherway I enjoyed this ep. both your review and the DS9 ep. I would have giving this a 7 based on your scale but thats just me.
This is the kind of dilemma that should have trapped Voyager in the Delta Quadrant. One that actually portrayed Janeway making a tough choice rather than a stupid one.
I think a six is fair. I rewatched the episode last night and actually revised my opinion downward from when I'd first seen it. I remembered the gist of the story, the crew facing a dilemma, an emotionally powerful scene in a field, and some beautiful landscape shots. Beyond those elements, it's a decent one-off episode but really just isn't that great overall.
The thing I never understand about time travel can be summed up at the beginning of this episode: Did the descendants exist before Dax noticed the planet?
If they'd done this in Voyager, what are the odds the quantum BS would have worked just fine - barring the usual need for the barking out of nonsensical word-strings?
On a related note, I had a big laugh when I saw Odo go into that stasis chamber because it was obviously a BREAD MAKER with Starfleet doohickies attached. I guess Bashir wanted some fresh bread...
@aperson22222 the shuttle still crush landed the first time, so yea, maybe it didn't "burn baby burn", but I think a crush landing is enought to ward that.
and as for the other, yes I agree with "it never really happened".
Hey, does anybody of you know how many people there should have been necessary on the Defiant that such a Colony would not die out because of genetical inbreeding? Approx.100 people on the Defiant are definetely not enough!
Well 48 are definetely not sufficient to build up a colony. A few Generations later the descentents would all have died out becuase of genetical inbreeding. I wonder how many people would have been necessary
@Exverlobter Actually, according to the "50/500" rule developed by geneticists, a minimum of 50 is all you need to prevent genetic disorders resulting from the inbreeding. 500 or more is preferable to maintain genetic diversity over thousands of years.
Qualified animal breeders generally work with the Ne=50 rating, but it has to be heavily controlled.
Anthropologist John Moore, seperate from the geneticists, also studied this. He determined a median of about 150 people would suffice.
Well actually i can remember an episode of Battlestar Galactica, where Baltar warned them, that mankind would perish, if the amount of the population continues to decline(because of genetical inbreeding). And they were about 40000 people!
@Exverlobter I seem to recall 500 men and 500 women being the rule of thumb. Given that not everyone here is of the same species, though, maybe the boost that gives genetic diversity whittles that number down a bit?
That generation would have been doomed anyway. If they crashed again, it would be an entirely different generation coming forward. After all the new information they accumulated, there is no way they'd be producing the exact same sperm and fucking the exact same way all over again.
Chuck, you mentioned that you're not assigning any other awards because you're not sure if it happened. Which awards would they be if they were assigned?
much like how I feel about Hard Time I like this episode but it really annoys me that we never see the characters dealing with it in any other episode, Odo's future self committed genocide just to save one person....yet we never see him react to that or see any of the characters treating him differently because of that
@doctorwhoknows1 I think the reason the crew never treats him differently is because the Odo we see never did it--the future Odo was the one who did it. I don't think it's fair to blame him for something he hasn't done yet (and might never do).
@mitmfan Or maybe because he, like Garak in "In the Pale Moonlight" or, more recently, the Doctor in "The Girl Who Waited," did something that the crew badly wanted somebody to do for them, but that their consciences would not allow them to do themselves. The fact that that was not Odo's motivation does not mean that the crew doesn't benefit from it.
Though of course you're also right. It would be very unfair of them to hold alternate future Odo's actions against regular Odo.
@torchwoodchesterfiel I don't doubt it, especially because at that point they were in a string of "borrowing" earlier episodes every few weeks: "North Star" ("A Piece of the Action"/"The 37s"), "Carpenter Street" (ST IV/"Future's End"), "Chosen Realm" ("Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"), and the most blatant ripoff of all, "Doctor's Orders" ("One"). With E^2 I didn't mind so much, for several reasons: They made it somewhat different, it wasn't glaringly inferior to its "source material," and
most importantly, it actually advanced the Xindi Arc instead of interrupting it with pointless side adventures like all the others I just named--which by the way is more than I can say for this episode, though I guess it has significance to the metastory as being (I believe) the final prewar trip to explore the Gamma Quadrant. One last farewell to the device that had driven so many early season stories.
@aperson22222 Oh, and "Extinction." That one recycled the TNG episode "Identity Crisis," though thankfully with the creepiness significantly dialed down. Didn't notice so much because it riffed on such a forgettable episode to begin with and because, as the first in this string, it didn't stand out as part of a pattern.
Yes, I don't quite understand why this received a 6. Was it the annoying kid? Any other flaws in the story/acting/screenplay weren't addressed, so a 6 wasn't really justified... :/
@fenrisulf1r it's not a matter of "good things push it up, bad things pull it down." Compared to the rest of the series it's better than average, but there are a substantial number that are still better, not because this failed, but because they did better. If an auto shop is the sixty-third best in the country, that doesn't mean it's because the shop has shortcomings, just that there are some which are better even though that one is really great.
@sfdebris I think this tends to happen because of reviewers using 7 as a benchpoint for 'no real flaws' or 'average', instead of 5. (And that's not taking into account that each series review scores are only compared to each other in your videos, when they just use one scale).
Personally I think it deserved even less than a 6 because it's an average bordering on awful episode. The whole ''lets sacrifice ourselves for these people that shouldn't exist'' crap annoyed the hell out of me. Don't worry Sisko I'm sure the Dominion war can wait or the Bajorans can do without their Jesus just because these people told you a few sad stories. No dice.
@clearspira Oh and O'Brien deciding to abandon his wife and kids also sickened me. I know from personal experience that growing up without a dad is hard - the fact he was choosing to abandon his children because he PLOUGHED A FIELD was completely contrived. I wonder how the story would have gone if Keiko was there alongside him and Molly and Kirayoshi were with a babysitter on DS9. God a hate this episode.
A 6? Man, I would've thought, based on everything, including your closing statements, that this would be an 8 or 9.. I mean, that's how I would've ranked it. It's one of my favorite episodes. Yes, the reset button was hit, but we all had mixed feelings about it.
This episode doesn't make sense. If Odo would always make sure that Kira didn't die, that would mean that that timeline where she did die could never exist. And they don't have any weird method of time travel to fall back on since no one actually goes back in time.
In other words, if the settlement never existed, why do our heroes remember them? And if such a paradox can exist, why CAN'T the paradox of a civilization that started from a different timeline?
@trlkly Time paradoxes are like that. If they didn't run into their descendants, they would have gone back in time.. where they would've made their descendants, which would make it so they won't go back in time, but if they don't go back in time, they won't make their descendants .... you see where this is going? Such a thing is impossible (grandfather paradox, with a twist), but in science fiction, it does make for an interesting story, so I let the writers have fun.
@trlkly Well it's a time travel episode. What can you expect in terms of "making sense"? Still, it's one of my favorite DS9 episodes. It puts the crew in a tough and interesting situation and has a lot of good and touching moments to offer.
Isaac Asimov once said something aboiut science fiction being about people, about putting them in such extreme situations that in the end what comes out is pure humanity, the gimmicks and techno-babble are tools for putting them in those situations
if you take the science fiction out of science fiction you're left with people, if you take the people out of science fiction you're left with nothing
this episode was great because it was not about the time paradox or the science but about the people
@notpointed True, though I am a bit surprised that it was Asimov who would say that. Characterization was not his strongest suit, notwithstanding The End of Eternity and perhaps the final chapter of Foundation and Empire, when the Mule explains his backstory and motivations to Bayta.
@aperson22222 well as far as I remember it was Asimov, then again I have the rough outline of the quote from an interview with Christopher Judge who quoted it there which I can't find anymore, so my information might not be entirely accurate... I figured since this is the youtube comment section it might not matter as much
@notpointed It may well have been, and I'm not demanding a footnote or anything. It's just that Asimov's best-known sci fi always struck me as being more into big ideas as opposed to characterization. For instance, I've always thought the Mule had the potential to be a really top-notch character, as memorable a sci fi villain as Darth Vader himself, but that Asimov spent way too little time examining him to make it happen. That's one example; I could name many others.
@aperson22222 I have to admit I am a horribly pretentious sci fi fan, the only things from Asimov I know are the three laws for robots and most of his famous quotes (because I went looking for the one I meant, didn't find it though), so I do not know who the Mule is... but from your words I guess it's like with sports and healthy eating: you know how it's supposed to work in theory but you just don't manage it in real life quite like you imagined it
I always liked Odo in this particular Episode because his Bahama looks rock.
SFdebris, I thank you for all your excellent work. Every Saturday, I grab one of my special Star Trek mugs, pour me a nice english tea and enjoy the insights you share in your OVEGs. And for 10 minutes I'm on a holiday. When you know some of the episodes by hard and have known them from young age you tend to accept stupid plots because of good feelings from childhood memories. I would not want to miss your opinion.
why didn't you comment on the fact that this episode completely ignored the genetic issues you'd get from breeding a society of 1000s from 48 people (and that's assume every one had kids)?
I remember when Stargate universe did a story based on a similar premise last year people debated that on forums for days
I really wanted to see Worf kill everybody.
I was curious whether he would kill each one personally, or run them through some kind of Masada decimation method and kill the remainder. And would he do the 'hold their eyes open and yell at the sky' thing everytime, or just save one big one until the end?
Worf: "I'm ready to Captain, I've said .. goodbye to my descendants."
Sisko: "Oh Mr. Worf, good news. While you were away we took a vote and changed our minds."
Worf: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
IRONMANAustralia 1 month ago
I like this episode but it leaves me fealing angry at future Odo. He made 8000 people vannish just for 1 person. Because of this episode I kinda hate Odo's and Kira's love becouse this is how Kira found out Odo's love for her. I just feal like it's a mean spirited episode.
MammonDaughter 1 month ago
Why is it always a planet of white people? They never encounter a planet of dark-skinned people, or yellow-skinned or red-skinned. No, even in the future, the non-pale-skinned people are still the minority, thrown in there to meet a quota.
ElveeKaye 1 month ago
@ElveeKaye what the hell are you talking about? the planet was full of the crew's offspring... and if you are just trying to make a blanket statement for Trek in general, you'd be wrong as well.
DarylPell 1 month ago
@ElveeKaye
I'd argue because of the false belief that non-whites are too alien for sci-fi! Or in general, we're done badly.
Nothingisasitseems 1 month ago
@Nothingisasitseems
Most of the characters on Star Trek are deliberately written as bland as possible. Sisko only acquired his characteristics as an African American, at the insistence of Avery Brooks, from the third season onward. La Forge never had a background beyond vague references to being born in the "African Confederation." Though I don't fault the writers for this because they can't write about experiences they have never had. And simply relying on stereotypes isn't a good idea.
SciFi2285 1 month ago
@SciFi2285
I believe Gene was partially to blame for the "bland humans" ideal. The idea that humanity had evolved somehow with different ethics and standards of culture from ours. As for the writing, I don't see that as an excuse, if you can write an ALIEN species and culture consistantly in a non realistic genre (sci-fi), than it is possible to write people of different cultures realistically. It's called RESEARCH! It's why SF has such a bad reputation for hack writers: they fail to.
Nothingisasitseems 1 month ago
@Nothingisasitseems
Alien cultures are easier to "accurately" represent precisely because they are fictional. You can reboot or retcon any inconsistencies (e.g. the Klingon forehead ridge problem). It is a lot more complicated with humans. Research is a good starting point. Whether archives can actually replace the actual experience is debatable though.
SciFi2285 1 month ago
@SciFi2285
Well, writers in general can ASK people (or the actors themselves) or take in life experiences. We're not talking black ghettos in space or Islamic terrorism or anything that requires even a tiny amount of writing talent: we're talking about Star Trek! Even just hiring someone who could relate closer to the characters could be useful, but as cab be seen with Sisko, he doesn't start sprouting ebonics or doing weed, he has a relatable culture that is still futuristic.
Nothingisasitseems 1 month ago
@ElveeKaye yeah you know, except for like, the klingons.
Startmenu4 1 week ago
Given any situation where saving a person in the present will prevent their a future self/descendant (encountered due to a timey whimey wibbly wobbly situation) from existing, the present selfs are IMO always more important than the future selfs. See also that Doctor Who episode where Amy Pond gets stuck for a few decades. The future selfs are only possibilities; the present selfs are actualities.
jliller 1 month ago
Oh no, I remember this sad ep! Time to watch it get lampooned LAWLAWLwaw
alextoob1 1 month ago
You're not going to comment on the ultra-gayness of the line, "Time is their enemy. We should help them defeat it"?!
And that was just the culmination of all the gay the Neo-Klingons had going on. What a pack of annoyingly self-righteous dipshits. Their little sect is like what would happen after 200 years if you stranded the population of Jonestown, the Amish and The Village People.
And their 'warrior code' sounds like it was written by the most badass Internet Tough Guy at Dragon Con.
IRONMANAustralia 1 month ago
@IRONMANAustralia I'M going to comment on your use of the word 'gay' as an insult. I don't know if you actually meant to disparage homosexuals in your use of it, but regardless of your intentions using the word in that way promotes homophobia and the open abuse of an entire group of people. Please don't do that.
nthoctave 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@nthoctave Fuck you gay pussy PC faggot. I hope you die of AIDS.
IRONMANAustralia 1 month ago
@IRONMANAustralia That was uncalled for. nthoctave did not insult you (I believe) in any way.
Anyways, Worf was raised on Earth and/or an Earth colony by Humans. As Klingon as he wants to be, I don't think he could let himself kill those innocent children and followers, even if they asked him to. Killing Duras is one thing, but killing the "Sons of Worf" would completely go against his Starfleet code of ethics and weird semi-Klingon code of honor. It would haunt him for the rest of his days.
TimThomason 1 month ago
@IRONMANAustralia Well, gee. Now that I've been insulted by someone on the internet (with such brilliance and wit) I guess I should hang my head in shame. Once again, a reasoned plea for tolerance is met with ignorance and hate. I'm just trying to help create a world where teenagers don't kill themselves over all the harm caused by ignorant individuals such as yourself. One has to wonder why you even watch Star Trek because you have obviously missed the entire point of the show.
nthoctave 1 month ago
@nthoctave
These are legitimate concerns. But there is very little one can say to a unrepentant bully. You can only have respectful disagreement with a person who is respectful.
SciFi2285 1 month ago
@SciFi2285 I do realize this. My intent is to show others who may be going through something alone and in silence that someone is willing to stand up and say something. It is also to serve as a reminder to those who hold prejudices silently that if they do decide to share their hate with the world, someone is willing to stand up and say something back.
nthoctave 1 month ago
I loved the zoom effect on o'brien. Should use that in future
philyburkhill1 1 month ago
I wonder if this episode has spawned a new kind of pick up line at Star Trek conventions.
"Think of all the generations of people who won't be born if we don't go back to my hotel room and seek jamaharon!"
JimPlaysGames 1 month ago
@JimPlaysGames
boy: "Think of all the generations of people who won't be born if we don't go back to my hotel room and seek jamaharon!"
girl: "I'd love to but I couldn't do that to yours and that fat 40 year old chick dressed dressed as 7of9's descendants"
doctorwhoknows1 1 month ago
Funny, if I had the choice (Let's say our escape would alert enemies) I would say "We have to stay" but since those people will never have existed I would try to get off this planet
TheStrayCross 1 month ago
This is one of the few DS9 episodes I watched when it was new, and it has always left a mark on me. I think of what I'd do in that situation. Would I fullfill my own dreams at the expense of others, or would I give up my life for others? Which is right? Is there a right? I don't think it's that simple. The song "slow fade" says to stay on one side or the other. However, the entire world is tinted in grey. You just can't apply black or white thinking to everything and expect it to be okay.
SailorBalance 1 month ago
For all the arguments made about all the descendents that would never be if the crew didn't deliberately maroon themselves, I often wondered why the argument was never made for all the descendants that would never be if they never got back to DS9.
ThePolysyllabist 1 month ago
@ThePolysyllabist I think they did make that argument at one point, but it was very quickly dismissed with a line like "but they don't exist yet, these people do".
But that's just temporal prejudice. Those descendants are just as real. They're just not around to be seen. The prophets see the future as no different from the present, and they would not see any difference between the two possible sets of descendants. Perhaps their perspective is more realistic and we're just biased linear beings.
JimPlaysGames 1 month ago
@JimPlaysGames the colonists' existence is curtain where as their other possible descendants' is not
doctorwhoknows1 1 month ago
Typo in the description on your website, "...future incarnation sills the beans...", just FYI.
alphaswimmer55 1 month ago
As others have said, I'm suprised this merited only a 6. I thought it was worth a 7 or 8 myself, and your comments at the end of the review (excellent as always) seem to suggest a higher score too.
Thanks again for yet another wonderful, insightful review.
STNeish 1 month ago
I thought Relm of Fear was this weeks. Etherway I enjoyed this ep. both your review and the DS9 ep. I would have giving this a 7 based on your scale but thats just me.
UstraMage 1 month ago
This is the kind of dilemma that should have trapped Voyager in the Delta Quadrant. One that actually portrayed Janeway making a tough choice rather than a stupid one.
cloudkitt 1 month ago
I think a six is fair. I rewatched the episode last night and actually revised my opinion downward from when I'd first seen it. I remembered the gist of the story, the crew facing a dilemma, an emotionally powerful scene in a field, and some beautiful landscape shots. Beyond those elements, it's a decent one-off episode but really just isn't that great overall.
aperson22222 1 month ago
@aperson22222
Not to mention the fact that a 6 out of 10 DS9 episode is still better than a 6 out of 10 Voyager or Enterprise episode...
shuboy05 1 month ago
The thing I never understand about time travel can be summed up at the beginning of this episode: Did the descendants exist before Dax noticed the planet?
playadominical 1 month ago
finger bones joke was waaaay to funny
sparton1199 1 month ago
If they'd done this in Voyager, what are the odds the quantum BS would have worked just fine - barring the usual need for the barking out of nonsensical word-strings?
ProphetTenebrae 1 month ago
I really think writers should stay away from time-travel stories, particularly when the reset button is employed after 45 minutes.
Danny77uk 1 month ago
On a related note, I had a big laugh when I saw Odo go into that stasis chamber because it was obviously a BREAD MAKER with Starfleet doohickies attached. I guess Bashir wanted some fresh bread...
shuboy05 1 month ago
no burn baby burn? no lazerous of the week?
eyallev 1 month ago
@eyallev He explained that.
aperson22222 1 month ago
@aperson22222 the shuttle still crush landed the first time, so yea, maybe it didn't "burn baby burn", but I think a crush landing is enought to ward that.
and as for the other, yes I agree with "it never really happened".
eyallev 1 month ago
Hey, does anybody of you know how many people there should have been necessary on the Defiant that such a Colony would not die out because of genetical inbreeding? Approx.100 people on the Defiant are definetely not enough!
Exverlobter 1 month ago
@Exverlobter
The episode actually states that the colony started with 48 people (not sure whether Odo was counted there).
shuboy05 1 month ago
@shuboy05
Well 48 are definetely not sufficient to build up a colony. A few Generations later the descentents would all have died out becuase of genetical inbreeding. I wonder how many people would have been necessary
Exverlobter 1 month ago
@Exverlobter Actually, according to the "50/500" rule developed by geneticists, a minimum of 50 is all you need to prevent genetic disorders resulting from the inbreeding. 500 or more is preferable to maintain genetic diversity over thousands of years.
Qualified animal breeders generally work with the Ne=50 rating, but it has to be heavily controlled.
Anthropologist John Moore, seperate from the geneticists, also studied this. He determined a median of about 150 people would suffice.
TimThomason 1 month ago
@TimThomason
Well actually i can remember an episode of Battlestar Galactica, where Baltar warned them, that mankind would perish, if the amount of the population continues to decline(because of genetical inbreeding). And they were about 40000 people!
Exverlobter 1 month ago
@Exverlobter I seem to recall 500 men and 500 women being the rule of thumb. Given that not everyone here is of the same species, though, maybe the boost that gives genetic diversity whittles that number down a bit?
aperson22222 1 month ago
That generation would have been doomed anyway. If they crashed again, it would be an entirely different generation coming forward. After all the new information they accumulated, there is no way they'd be producing the exact same sperm and fucking the exact same way all over again.
Mutex50 1 month ago
Chuck, you mentioned that you're not assigning any other awards because you're not sure if it happened. Which awards would they be if they were assigned?
mitmfan 1 month ago
@mitmfan Well, you could make an argument for Lazarus of the Week for the crew
Aravaganthus 1 month ago
much like how I feel about Hard Time I like this episode but it really annoys me that we never see the characters dealing with it in any other episode, Odo's future self committed genocide just to save one person....yet we never see him react to that or see any of the characters treating him differently because of that
doctorwhoknows1 1 month ago
@doctorwhoknows1 I think the reason the crew never treats him differently is because the Odo we see never did it--the future Odo was the one who did it. I don't think it's fair to blame him for something he hasn't done yet (and might never do).
mitmfan 1 month ago
@mitmfan Or maybe because he, like Garak in "In the Pale Moonlight" or, more recently, the Doctor in "The Girl Who Waited," did something that the crew badly wanted somebody to do for them, but that their consciences would not allow them to do themselves. The fact that that was not Odo's motivation does not mean that the crew doesn't benefit from it.
Though of course you're also right. It would be very unfair of them to hold alternate future Odo's actions against regular Odo.
aperson22222 1 month ago
@doctorwhoknows1
where is my minority report?!
Mastaeoe 1 month ago
do you think wen it came down to making the enterprise ep called e2 they just dusted of this script and made a few tweaks?
torchwoodchesterfiel 1 month ago
@torchwoodchesterfiel I don't doubt it, especially because at that point they were in a string of "borrowing" earlier episodes every few weeks: "North Star" ("A Piece of the Action"/"The 37s"), "Carpenter Street" (ST IV/"Future's End"), "Chosen Realm" ("Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"), and the most blatant ripoff of all, "Doctor's Orders" ("One"). With E^2 I didn't mind so much, for several reasons: They made it somewhat different, it wasn't glaringly inferior to its "source material," and
aperson22222 1 month ago
most importantly, it actually advanced the Xindi Arc instead of interrupting it with pointless side adventures like all the others I just named--which by the way is more than I can say for this episode, though I guess it has significance to the metastory as being (I believe) the final prewar trip to explore the Gamma Quadrant. One last farewell to the device that had driven so many early season stories.
aperson22222 1 month ago
@aperson22222 Oh, and "Extinction." That one recycled the TNG episode "Identity Crisis," though thankfully with the creepiness significantly dialed down. Didn't notice so much because it riffed on such a forgettable episode to begin with and because, as the first in this string, it didn't stand out as part of a pattern.
aperson22222 1 month ago
Yes, I don't quite understand why this received a 6. Was it the annoying kid? Any other flaws in the story/acting/screenplay weren't addressed, so a 6 wasn't really justified... :/
fenrisulf1r 1 month ago 2
@fenrisulf1r it's not a matter of "good things push it up, bad things pull it down." Compared to the rest of the series it's better than average, but there are a substantial number that are still better, not because this failed, but because they did better. If an auto shop is the sixty-third best in the country, that doesn't mean it's because the shop has shortcomings, just that there are some which are better even though that one is really great.
sfdebris 1 month ago 5
@sfdebris I think this tends to happen because of reviewers using 7 as a benchpoint for 'no real flaws' or 'average', instead of 5. (And that's not taking into account that each series review scores are only compared to each other in your videos, when they just use one scale).
TheGerkuman 1 month ago
@fenrisulf1r Its probably because the colony never existed, Kira never died and so all of this had absolutely no consequences.
Danny77uk 1 month ago
IRC, didn't Odo meld with himself in this ep? No word on that?
Aravaganthus 1 month ago 9
@Aravaganthus That's right, he linked (!) with himself, so the Odo from the original timeline knew everything that happened.
dokinafaso 1 month ago
@Aravaganthus Chuck doesent care much for the romance plot between Kira and Odo (see the his way review) , so its no surprise really
DarkZoneIrratonalys 1 month ago
@DarkZoneIrratonalys It's not about the romance, it's about the linking with himself.
Aravaganthus 1 month ago
Personally I think it deserved even less than a 6 because it's an average bordering on awful episode. The whole ''lets sacrifice ourselves for these people that shouldn't exist'' crap annoyed the hell out of me. Don't worry Sisko I'm sure the Dominion war can wait or the Bajorans can do without their Jesus just because these people told you a few sad stories. No dice.
clearspira 1 month ago
@clearspira Oh and O'Brien deciding to abandon his wife and kids also sickened me. I know from personal experience that growing up without a dad is hard - the fact he was choosing to abandon his children because he PLOUGHED A FIELD was completely contrived. I wonder how the story would have gone if Keiko was there alongside him and Molly and Kirayoshi were with a babysitter on DS9. God a hate this episode.
clearspira 1 month ago
A 6? Man, I would've thought, based on everything, including your closing statements, that this would be an 8 or 9.. I mean, that's how I would've ranked it. It's one of my favorite episodes. Yes, the reset button was hit, but we all had mixed feelings about it.
tgbotg 1 month ago
@tgbotg a 6 indeed! What's up with that?!
oEQjet 1 month ago
This episode really touched me, it's not everyday you get a second chance to confess your feelings.
animeownage86 1 month ago
This episode doesn't make sense. If Odo would always make sure that Kira didn't die, that would mean that that timeline where she did die could never exist. And they don't have any weird method of time travel to fall back on since no one actually goes back in time.
In other words, if the settlement never existed, why do our heroes remember them? And if such a paradox can exist, why CAN'T the paradox of a civilization that started from a different timeline?
trlkly 1 month ago
@trlkly Time paradoxes are like that. If they didn't run into their descendants, they would have gone back in time.. where they would've made their descendants, which would make it so they won't go back in time, but if they don't go back in time, they won't make their descendants .... you see where this is going? Such a thing is impossible (grandfather paradox, with a twist), but in science fiction, it does make for an interesting story, so I let the writers have fun.
tgbotg 1 month ago
@trlkly Well it's a time travel episode. What can you expect in terms of "making sense"? Still, it's one of my favorite DS9 episodes. It puts the crew in a tough and interesting situation and has a lot of good and touching moments to offer.
dokinafaso 1 month ago
Threshold on the upcoming... I remember that series being interesting... and cancelled. All too common a fate for Network Sci-Fi...
firebornliger 1 month ago
Isaac Asimov once said something aboiut science fiction being about people, about putting them in such extreme situations that in the end what comes out is pure humanity, the gimmicks and techno-babble are tools for putting them in those situations
if you take the science fiction out of science fiction you're left with people, if you take the people out of science fiction you're left with nothing
this episode was great because it was not about the time paradox or the science but about the people
notpointed 1 month ago 8
@notpointed True, though I am a bit surprised that it was Asimov who would say that. Characterization was not his strongest suit, notwithstanding The End of Eternity and perhaps the final chapter of Foundation and Empire, when the Mule explains his backstory and motivations to Bayta.
aperson22222 1 month ago
@aperson22222 well as far as I remember it was Asimov, then again I have the rough outline of the quote from an interview with Christopher Judge who quoted it there which I can't find anymore, so my information might not be entirely accurate... I figured since this is the youtube comment section it might not matter as much
notpointed 1 month ago
@notpointed It may well have been, and I'm not demanding a footnote or anything. It's just that Asimov's best-known sci fi always struck me as being more into big ideas as opposed to characterization. For instance, I've always thought the Mule had the potential to be a really top-notch character, as memorable a sci fi villain as Darth Vader himself, but that Asimov spent way too little time examining him to make it happen. That's one example; I could name many others.
aperson22222 1 month ago
@aperson22222 I have to admit I am a horribly pretentious sci fi fan, the only things from Asimov I know are the three laws for robots and most of his famous quotes (because I went looking for the one I meant, didn't find it though), so I do not know who the Mule is... but from your words I guess it's like with sports and healthy eating: you know how it's supposed to work in theory but you just don't manage it in real life quite like you imagined it
notpointed 1 month ago
The ending: I wonder if Quark ever found out his image was teaching children math? :D
Foebane72 1 month ago
I always liked Odo in this particular Episode because his Bahama looks rock.
SFdebris, I thank you for all your excellent work. Every Saturday, I grab one of my special Star Trek mugs, pour me a nice english tea and enjoy the insights you share in your OVEGs. And for 10 minutes I'm on a holiday. When you know some of the episodes by hard and have known them from young age you tend to accept stupid plots because of good feelings from childhood memories. I would not want to miss your opinion.
Mastaeoe 1 month ago
@Mastaeoe Heh, "Bahama looks," never thought of it that way. Hee. Well said.
Cassadinegirlaz 1 month ago
@Cassadinegirlaz
Its in the review and I must forward compliments to SF Debris.
Mastaeoe 1 month ago
@Mastaeoe Yes I realized that once I watched the actual review. Good of you to give credit where it's due though.
Cassadinegirlaz 1 month ago
why didn't you comment on the fact that this episode completely ignored the genetic issues you'd get from breeding a society of 1000s from 48 people (and that's assume every one had kids)?
I remember when Stargate universe did a story based on a similar premise last year people debated that on forums for days
doctorwhoknows1 1 month ago
I never Liked Odo after this one , and what made my hate for this character grow is him letting Rom get arrested .
Joeybsmooth 1 month ago