10:00 the women of the Muslim world should rise up and take power :D staby their husbands while they are sleeping. Then they can raise their sons out of this way of life.
There has to be some intervention, or things will continue to run rampant and violate their human rights.
Sorry fanboys, Harris is completely out of his depth here. And the measure to which you fanboys defend Harris as somehow having a more advanced line of thinking only points up your own limitations.
Hedges' criticism of Harris as "bordering on racism" refered to the suggestion in Harris' book that Muslim mothers are proud of their sons' martyrdom. Hedges gives a complete explanation as to why this is not the case, but Harris doesn't even address Hedges' points. Weak, Harris, weak.
@bapyou It's perfectly fine to criticize Harris' arguments as Hedges does, but to call it "racist" is just wrong and foolish. You don't need to play that card.
We have lots of poor people living in black africa, a lot poorer than the people form gaza. But, they do not blow themselves up, because they are not muslims.
I like to see Sam live on a dollar a day for even a few months, I wont bother mimicking the conditions in Gaza, nor will i abuse him mentally or physically by killing his kids or taking his home. All i ask him to do is film himself. If he didn't go fuckin insane by the end of it, i would consider his pathetic attack on Palestinians plausible.I agree with religious stupidity but when it comes to Palestine Sam's clueless. Problem is he wont even admit it just to unnecessarily protect his position.
@architect333 Oh please. If poverty and oppression were enough to drive a society so barbaric that it would lead to suicide bombings and the murder of innocent people, then we should expect to see tibetan buddhists doing the same things. The tibetans have suffered from chinese oppression and poverty, yet they feel no need to take out their anger on non-combatants or civilians.
@Drgamedood humans react differently to abuse, human history and war is loaded with self sacrifice in despairing times and war. Muslim's are warriors, they prefer to die before oppression. Japan was similar, we are no different, having a special term for it "collateral damage" and soldiers sacrifice. I mean is this even an argument? were still dealing with oppression, poverty, despair, manipulation, power, greed and aggressive war which are the underlying causes hedges points out.
@architect333 But why do they react differently? Both arab muslims and tibetan buddhists suffer the same things. Yet only one side commits horrible atrocities against innocent people. It's the religion that makes the difference. We are not going to see atrocities commited by "Jain Extremists" because no matter how miserable they are, their religion forbids any form of violence.
@Drgamedood You seem to forget America invaded, and still occupies for 10 years now 2 nations while supporting a prison in Palestine, dictators all over the middle east. once this settles in you will realize using sam's pathetic argument jain's are not at war, Tibetan are clashing with Chinese, but would be foolish to push the super power to far and therefor remain in slaved, you not addressing hedges underlying factors,but actually agreeing to them or making the case it's ok to be abused.
@Drgamedood I mean look at the escalating school shootings by students, no religion involved and clearly murdering all abusers,innocents,and ending with suicide, classic example. sure some could have been religious,does it really matter? the underlying reasons are always the real cause. religion is simply a tool for good or bad just like any other ideology including politics as was recently the case in Norway. Hedges recognizes religion as a problem, but far bigger problems lay underneath.
Oh really... What about the "Sudeten Germans"? Tell the "Palestinians to renunciate Islamofascism and Islamonazism and to build new lives wherever they are. Especially and preferably in "Greater Syria". On the other hand, ask their fellow Arab brothers to accept them as they should be accepted, allowing them to assimilate properly and not to misuse them for their own Islamofascist/nazi agendas.
@Wrath0fKhan Muslim's don't suicide because we offer food,education,homes. It's obvious insanity comes when u.s bombs happen to kill loved ones. Poverty only helps recruit indoctrinate soldiers for the other agendas. Religion is our first attempt at civilized order, any further then that, only underlies other factors associated with any fundamentalism, especially group thinking and political power grabs as your video describes. It's basically a fact poverty leads to despair n vulnerability.
Estimates say that perhaps 2/3, maybe even 3/4 of all victims in these conflicts died at the hands of fellow "Muslims" (e.g. militant political groups claiming to be the "real Muslims"). Btw, when our parents, perhaps grand parents were fighting the Nazis, no one came up with such a nonsense just as you do.
"religion"
Religion has failed us all. Islam is evidently struggling most.
@Wrath0fKhan 'Doesnt lead to "jihadism'. then explain Scott atrans work in the field, to attempt to deny the universal conclusion poverty leads to hopelessness, struggle, vulnerability indoctrination and war is just pathetic. It's what history has been all about. Every war has been based on using the poor for someones agenda. At best jihad is what it is, a group of radical reformers using religion to unite against perceived injustice. And as invaders n occupiers hard to dismiss this fact.
@Wrath0fKhan As for religion, your beliefs are based on the foundation of religions before civilizations or societies got under way. At best you could say religions are obsolete today, particularly for well off educated people, but to deny the moral foundations and concepts discussed in philosophy is to ignore history or Dan Dennet's appreciation for religions in the past!
"Estimates say that perhaps?" you seem to ignore the fact they are in war, despair, poverty leading to power grabs. lol
"your beliefs are based on the foundation of religions before civilizations or societies got under way"
Dont know about that. For example like what? Im pretty much convinced you are in the process of committing some invalid logical operation right here. Id as well say it will pop up as soon as you provide the first concrete example.
@Wrath0fKhan oh please read Denial Dennet, you think Christianity has had no effect on forming behaviors and or cultural practices building the foundations for notions such as the need for forgiveness,charity,not to kill, sins,etc. Religion is nothing more the an attempt to explain life with limited knowledge, and a philosophy to behave, outdated it may be, you pretend it has not shaped or even dominated our morals/outlook from our barbarous past is to ignore history and human progression.
"foundations for notions such as the need for ..."
Exactly... As Ive suspected. Here comes the genetic fallacy. Its totally irrelevant what you are saying. All these "things" exist without Christianity, existed before Christianity, exist in other religions and systems of thought and conduct, too. And because Christianity served as a cultural vehicle for some time, it does not follow that therefore Christianity is right or divine command theory is right, etc.
@Wrath0fKhan "does not follow that therefore Christianity is right or divine command theory is right, etc" this seems like an automated response without recognizing it had nothing to do with i said. we not talking about the validity of morals or religions. Read my statement again, and again if you need to, then put it into the context of the discussion which is how Christianity or any religion shaped behavior in society to present day.
"not talking about validity of morals or religions"
Of course "we" are. More precisely thats what you seem to have suggested.
"shaped behavior"
I dont dispute that. I claim that "it" practically became irrelevant. Of course there are still people who adhere to some of the religious notions, some more some less, yet that doesnt matter, since the religion itself, as it was passed down the line of history, became irrelevant! So again; you are still committing the genetic fallacy.
No... I claim it is irrelevant (for our current purpose). A simple "Gedankenexperiment" nails it. If Christianity disappeared from history books, we would keep going on just as we do right now. If you educated people in "modern thought" only, they would have absolutely no need to invent Christianity at all. This implies the irrelevance of Christianity. (Of course this does not apply to a historic perspective, yet thats not in question.)
Yea... Christianity and barbarous past go well together. Ever heard of European religious wars? In those conflicts (and what resulted from them - e.g. epidemics) more people died in relation to total population than in WW1 and WW2 combined. This all happened at the peak of religion having a really firm grip on society.
@Wrath0fKhan k this is getting way to messy with comments, if you think ww's was the height of religion, you simply ignore history, the reformation, followed by secularism, newton's age of reason, and finally evolution which helped kill god. I'm afraid this is dragging on, i made my point in the comment ending with Politics as usual! respond to that leaving your point, not simply another fact, so I can understand you position and we can leave it at that. all the best
@architect333 "wws was the height of religion" What? What wws? Im talking about European religious wars. "ignore history" On the contrary! "reformation" Exactly... "followed by secularism" Exactly! "politics as usual" Thats what Islam is about. All encompassing - hence politics too. (Quite similar to medieval Christianity.) Just listen to some traditionalists/revivalists and listen carefully: watch?v=6wBfH8ExYfg
"At best you could say religions are obsolete today"
In general, religions (especially the relevant ones) make testable claims. Most of those testable claims were shown to be false. Hence comes the irrelevance. Adhering to demonstrably failed ideas is evidently disadvantageous if not outright futile.
"moral foundations"
Really? Like what? The divine command theory? Or what else did you have in mind?
"Dennet et al"
You mean as a study case - unraveling the mechanisms, histories, etc.
@Wrath0fKhan "With themselves in the first place?" thanks to the European domination just before entering the global age, followed by u.s domination of the world up until this very day. You unaware that we currently in 2 wars with them, and support dictators so we can control oil, keeping the people enslaved, poverty, despair, uneducated, resulting in the hope of religion?
"appreciate the research" she makes my case power grabs leads to manipulation/indoctrination to recruit soldiers/loyalty.
I dont have any problems with "US domination". They dont force "me" into anything. Since "we" joined the "West", on average "things" have been running quite in our favor.
"2 wars with them"
No... Not with "them". In fact the US and allies are inwars with diverse "Islamic revivalists". Its these "revivalists" who have killed (again, as evidence seems to suggest) vast majority of all the victims.
"power grabs leads to manipulation/indoctrination"
Its "running" these (memetic) indoctrinating systems that lead to "grabs" (just like the attempts at reviving traditional Islam). As well, its not the poor ones who do this. Its rather affluent ones (specifically her point).
"to recruit soldiers/loyalty"
Yes. Yet this is exactly what "Uswa Hasana" did. They are just modeling their behavior according to him. Thats what "Uswa Hasana" implies, anyway.
@architect333 I simply agree with hedges fundamentalism comes from underlying causes, he does not suggest religion is not a problem, he's atheist! But suggests Religion can produce stupidity no more then any other ideology coupled with group thinking. In other words addressing the underlying problems he mentioned and dominated against sam's simplistic case of just believing. Most of the Arab world condemn jihads. Quran does not call for opposing sects, but unity for Muslims. Politics as usual!
No... Most of the Arab and especially Muslim world ask for more Islam (e.g. 80%+ people in Pakistan would prefer if "rajm" was officially implemented as punishment against adulterers - see PEW). Yet "more Islam" (e.g. return to traditions) as well implies more "jihad".
"unity for Muslims"
Sure... Yet who will bring this unity? Who will lead them? Too many seem to make that claim. As well they seem to be fighting about nuances among themselves.
the ramblings of the moderator are comical...something tells me he has never had a job outside academia .....he is so self unaware he has no idea how laughable he is.
"The only way they can reaffirm themselves is by death". Complete nonsense, they can escape to USA and get a job in a free country, we should create some kind of policy to welcome people to our countries who want to escape and become agnostics and leave their religion behind.
K im a huge Sam Harris fan but everyone listen. Islamic people are pissed off due to political reasons. Put anyone in that position and they will crash planes into buildings (look at Joseph Stacks). Yes Islam is harmful to society like any religion. But the attacks are because of American Policy. Almost strictly American Policy. It's harmful to think its not. WE need to recognize how American policy affects the world. Don't blame it on Islam.
" WE need to recognize how American policy affects the world. Don't blame it on Islam." ~ JP
No one is claiming Islam is the ONLY problem, Sam even admits this a couple times in this debate. The question is not whether there is ONE problem, but how Islam affects the reactions to a problem. The FACT is that the radical islamist mindset is gearing the reactions towards irrational, suicidal violence. OTHER reactions, like the recent events in Egypt, are SUPPORTED by the US.
So the question then becomes, "What is the difference between reacting against your own oppressive governments, which have been supported by the US in the past, and simply reacting against the US?". The answer is two-fold: the first scenario produces support from the western world, while the second produces bombs from the western world.
Lashing out against large nations for political grievances in your own is not an acceptable means of protest, and it is not the key to reform.
Sam's fundamental complaint is the irrational, superstitious foundation upon which Islamists, christian fundamentalists, and others build their reactions to events in the world. His main point is that these belief systems produce behavioral results which do little, if any, good towards remedying the REAL problem. Apocalyptic visions of the world achieve nothing but apocalypse when seen to their end, and that, I think we can agree, solves nothing.
Hedges and the moderator implies that even if religion is useless, we should keep it and focus on curing human evil instead. It would be like saying homeopathy is useless and does nothing, so we should keep it and not heavily criticize it or attack it, because at least homeopathy does some good for many people. If this is the case, why don't we also justify all sorts of other things too - if believing in the tooth fairy helps adults, should we not encourage that false b.s. to be believed?
@lefredvoncarstein "If anyone thinks Islam is non-violent, I have 3 words for them."
If anyone thinks that Christianity is non-violent, I have a few words for them: Pat Robertson and his admonition to "take out" Hugo Chavez. American soldiers in Iraq & Afghanistan regularly pray Christian prayers before they go out & shoot up the countryside. When it comes to violence, Christianity does not have an upper moral hand.
The Gospel of John (3:18-20) promotes complete hatred of non-Christians.
@bapyou //Pat Robertson and his admonition to "take out" Hugo Chavez.//
The difference is. Christians are not compelled to obey everything well known christian figures say. In fact, many have criticized pat.
//American soldiers in Iraq & Afghanistan regularly pray Christian prayers before they go out & shoot up the countryside. //
Most americans are against the war. Plus the american military, unlike islamic militants, have strict rules against killing non-combatants and civilians.
Hedges, like so many others seems to think Iraq should instantly now become a wonderfully democratic country now that the US has dismantled Saddam Hussein. It will take a few decades, maybe 40 or 50 years before that country will begin to see the benefits of what that sick war did ... but it wil come.
Look at Russia or the Czech Republic ... it has taken decades for those countries to slowly become better and better.
it's irrelevant whether or not individual institutions are secular, what is important is what do the people who support those institutions believe. the US is a secular nation and even that didn't stop a religious lunatic from taking power and advancing religious agendas
grasping race is grasping straws, it is a point guaranteed to incite a response. a response that can be a smoke screen. he flails and fails. Hedges is a waffling moderate apologist grasping..he has no credibility..he just knows how to punctuate his weak points with hot points that are easy crowd pleasers
This guy is the worst moderator I have ever seen. This is a debate between two people. Why is he voicing his experience an opinion? He is obviously uncomfortable and insecure about sitting between these two. There is a reason his is not invited to debate. There is a reason is moderating. He needs to recognize this reason
Boy, Hedges doesn't know much about Islam for someone who claims to have spent some time in the Muslim world. No apparent idea that the Quranic verses which are deplorable are not cast in historical as Biblical ones we do not like. When in the Bible God says do this or that to such and such a people, there's a clear sense that was then and those people (for whatever reason, good or bad). In the Quran, it's maybe there was an historical context but it's not clear and it's still for all time.
Are you serious? Hedges is extremely well read and worldly. He does an excellent job of exposing Harris's overly simplistic ideas about world events. Society is very complex...that's his point. This idea that the complete secularization of society will progress us toward some utopian future completely ignores man's basic nature, one that religion's have understood for centuries: man is wolf to man
@rntlee Are you serious? Hedges (and this "moderator") are a pair of ignorant morons...they are constantly giving their resumes in some vain attempt to gain credibility for their weak arguments. Please listen to the agruments given. Without religions there would still be tribalism to overcome...it's everywhere and takes many forms...
The main problem with Harris is that his argument is ahistorical. In doing this, he fails to take in any political, sociological, or economic factors that develop over time and produce current realities. It's not apologetic, it's explanatory. In fact, it seems like whenever these issues arise, he jumps back and says '... well the Koran says THIS!' So I'm gonna have to say, Harris loses.
How does Hedges not see the direct connection between Islam and the actions of the suicide bombers he talked about? If they were not religious, believing in an afterlife and a reward for the action they take, one strains to think of a reason that would motivate a suicide bombing.
@inademv The society has create fame for it, what motivates americans to do things that seem crazy granted they do not typically kill themselves. But are the kids who go killing at schools motivated by religion? Or is it to become famous and revenge... How is that so different than to those in palestine doing this? The Quran if you look into, you can debate his message, but on suicide its clearly against it. Preservation of life seems to be one of the main focal points. Yet they ignore it.
A moderator's job is not to eat up half the time by telling us what HE things about the subject. His job is to facilitate the conversation between the debaters. Regardless of his credentials, this guy is an awful moderator.
Why are there so many thumbs down on this particular video? It´s good quality, a good discussion and Harris makes some great points., even Hedges manages to makea few ones as well).
Wow, Harris really dealt Hedges an incredible blow with his last speech before the end of this video. Hedges loses his head here and doesn't try to salvage any of his points, which is great. But then goes on to make a classic 'it seems' point based on a passage from Harris' book.
That was an amazing rebuttal though. The Ayaan Hirsi Ali point really put the icing on the cake there. Made it come full circle.
I don't think Harris thinks we should rid Muslim culture of their religion so much as he wants to rid the WORLD of ALL religion. He is arguing that blending iron age philosophies with modern weaponry is dangerous. He further argues (elsewhere) that religious moderates give "cover" for extremists by, in a sense, allowing them to hold unreasonable ideas without evidence (faith).
I don't know much about proper debate format or whatever. Why does everyone think the moderator is so bad? Did he talk too much? was he too opinionated?
Yes, the moderator isn't supposed to do anything other than get things moving along. He can pick up a point that maybe one side missed, but when you continually jump into the fray it doesn't make you look neutral whatsoever.
sam should have responded: yes despair drives them into the arms of religion, but those are not the best arms to run to. let's give everyone something better!
There are Muslims who are oppressed by Islam and then there are oppressed Muslims who use Islam to fight against oppression. They both miss this point and talk in circles.
Is violence not justified against oppression? Hedges talked about the oppressed Palestinians in pretty good detail and Harris had nothing to say about it. Harris either supports this oppression or just doesn't care for it (seeming that he quotes Dershowitz in his book). It's naive to just brush it off as religious stupidity.
I think Harris does a pretty good job here considering the way Sheer piles on, misrepresents and attacks. While Sheer is a good columnist he's a terrible moderator.
9:00 the difference is that Islam has not been dragged to the secular society that we supposedly have but Christianity has the same problems but with decades and decades of secular wisdom
Chris Hedges is pitching to the anti-war crowd like a clown to a baby.
Hedges offers no alternative to any situation. All he can muster is..
"Harris is being racist (for some reason Muslim is an ethnicity now), Harris is a war-mongerer, Harris doesn't know what he's talking about because he didn't spend two decades wandering around the Middle East like me."
Yet, he only briefly and vaguely describes that economic, and social pressures inflict the society. He's useless in a debate.
dude he gave a very tangilble reason for people to be entangled in despair. You dont have to be poor to be depressed and he gave a good example of it. And sam generalizes about an area hes never been in.
For example: Im sure you can tell me about what goes on in your house better than i can because i dont live in your house and never have. Even if i see you in your house a couple times, you know way more about it. Thats what hedges brings to the table.
@visualkei72 I wouldn't have gone with the racist argument, but what's troubling to me about Sam's book is when he says (I forget which chapter) that the west should consider a preemptive nuclear first strike against a religious enemy.
@visualkei72--Sam Harris had the same debate with Scott Atran, Scott is one of the leading experts on this field and he accuses Sam of talking nonsense also. I think their all right in their own way in that their on the same side in this debate. Scott Atran says people are driven to fight against the west by the horrors they witness against innocent people in the middle east.
And I'm no fan of Islam or political correctness toward Islam, I think theres two seperate issues here.
I reckon Hedge's must have sold himself to the Islamists who had him incarcerated. He keeps decrying arguments that Harris himself doesn't support ..... disingenuous ass! His determination to remain ignorant in the face of all evidence that he is ignorant is the vehicle by which the West as a whole will commit suicide to a backward intolerant 8th century ideology. Just as the common muslim is brainwashed by their religious leaders, so are we who give credence to this smarmy apologist.
Anyone who opens there eyes and knows what is happening in Palestine which is Ethinic cleansing, would have to be atheist. Your hate for Islam shows your true Identity.
Ur right,anyone who knows whats happening in palestine can be an atheist. But its in the name of theism that so much slaughter is done. You prove my point, it is murder in the name of God...whether Jew, Christian or Muslim.......i hope my true identity is fully clear, you nullity. Only the theist (whatever form of the virus you are inflicted with) once convinced of an absurdity (god) will then find it easy to commit the attrocity. Frame it in religion and the theist will do anything in its name
Wrong again. If you know 95% of Israel doesn't practice Judaism or any other religion, you would know they are atheist. Israelis have a extreme hatred for Muslim, and religion in general. " Zionism is the demon, and it is under the guise of religion.. More manipulation, of man.
I never understand why people defending religion (as Chris Hedges is doing here) always bring up socio-economic factors and say, "So they had no choice but to turn to religion..." as if they makes religion any better! IF RELIGION CAN SO EASILY CORRUPT THE MIND OF SOMEONE WHO HAS LEGITIMATE POLITICAL/ECONOMIC GRIEVANCES... DOESN'T THAT STILL SHOW THAT RELIGION IS BAD???
Ok Hedges has officially lost my respect with the whole "the passages in the Hebrew bible are on the same footing with the hateful passages in the quran". oh come off it. as Harris states, you will find in NO other religion on earth, such a detailed and eloquent account of hatred of infidels then you do in Islam. Islam took the worst of the Hebrew bible and managed to make it even more horrific.
i really think hedges is being purposefully obscuring. i agree with his views on the political circumstances surrounding gaza, but it seems as if he's just using this to dodge sam's larger point about the influence of insane metaphysical views on behavior, hiding behind the applause of the audience
Harris speaks to a rebellious anti-religious group of people. For better or worse this group is growing. this rebellion, if people are smart enough and have enough courage, will help these people like Harris and those who follow him to realize religion is not the problem. the problem is, as Hedges maintains, tribalism.
Tribalism comes in more forms then religion. Once you notice this religion becomes a non-issue. It's like 'whatever dude'
I wrote another post but it didnt go through. It was about Harris dodging (for real, not like people claim Hedges does) Rob's question about Iraq going from a "basically secular society" to embracing suicide bombings after the US occupation. Harris says "well i think this goes to show that we underestimated the religious presence in Iraq"(3:30).
I said that was Ad Hoc (because it is). But this is characteristic of Harris throughout the debate.
To me, Harris just seems to come off as a sort of a know-it-all who scoffs at the idea that socio-economic circumstances could drive people to commit horrible injustices JUST AS MUCH as religous intolerance could.
The fact is, atheists have the potential, because of their (apparent) moral & intellectual superiority, to be just as intolerant of the religous as the religous are of them. The other side is simply a threat, it's that black & white to them.
Sam Harris in other debates (perhaps also in this one) clearly states that religion is not the ONLY source of conflict, merely that it is indeed A source.
That's the whole point of his message. Why are we so scared of admitting that simple fact. Indeed sometimes people want stronger socio/economic circumstance . But maybe, just maybe, they also sometimes simply want acknowledgment from a prideful father in the sky . They SAY as much. Why do we continue to "scoff" at their own admission.
Who is really influenced by a particular religion so much so that it encompasses their whole life? not many in the core countries. more so people whom have nothing left but their religion.
How does Harris propose to remedy this? apparently Harris wants to nuke them, go to war with them, bomb them. Granted he may have some other ideas which would be at least acceptable but these horrible ideas obfuscate a sane and rational discourse. and they're really just hate mongering.
Yeah! I like what Hedges says about the externalization of evil. That's what christian fascists do and thats what he's saying people like Harris and Hitchens are doing. I read Karl Poppers' "the open society and its enemies", it was a very good two volume book. Best thing I ever read. Hedges uses a lot of concepts from that book even though he quotes theologians more often. Glad there is someone out there thinking with their head straight. oh and nice montage!
Would you agree that Islamofascists externalize evil in much the same way as far right Christians?
Would you say Islam - as a philosophy or set of teachings, if you will - poses no more threat to the world than, say, the teachings of Buddhism or Janism? If so, then from where, for instance, are the Iranian theocratic fascists getting their permission to carry out stonings for apostasy, gender-based subjugation, forced conversions and more?
Externalizing 'evil' is an element of fascism. But Hedges quotes Umberto Eco in American Fascists as saying fascist movements may or may not have any number of the elements he would call fascistic. That said, I have no idea. Understanding fascists hurts my brain.
to your second point: Hedges' argument is that none of these religions are harmful in and of itself.
your third point: The Iranian theocracy don't ask permission. or if they do it is through a system of closed societal taboos
You are retarding progress by not acknowledging the differences between religions. They all share one thing in common: the worship of dogmatic bullshit. But let's not say they all teach the same things and to the same extents for some politically correct prerogative. Good for Harris.
So the repeated daily cries of "death to america, praise allah, glory to islam" is completely divorced from religion? There's absolutely no connection between middle eastern viloence and the desire for a caliphate? Sharia law just happens to be the reflexive response of the oppressed?
If all this is caused by oppression, completely unrelated to religious ideology, why is it we have no Buddhist suicide bombers attacking China over grievances in Tibet?
Buddhists dont use the quaran. I think we can say that religion is a part of the problems in the middle east but we can not say that it is the source or the only problem there. Religion does not explain every problem in the middle east.
Thats quite a racist statement. Harris does somewhat say that though. He thinks that one poll can tell us everything we need to know about the middle east and thats ridiculous especially when the guy hes debating has lived there for over 5 years. Thats like me tellin sam harris what goes on in his house. I would never claim to know more about an area than someone who lives there. You are bound to sound ignorant. Books an polls cant give you experience and wisdom
why is it that when the arguments of theist are being slaughtered and even their chair is bleeding because of the battering, they stil keep on talking?
wow, talk about harris fighting a straw man. hedges didn't say his criticism of islam borders on racism, he said his false description of palestinian mothers who do not grieve but celebrate the death of their children borders on racism, as it's based on the racist assumption that palestinian mothers are by nature inhumanly indurate to the suffering of their children
it's pathetic how harris keeps avoiding the questions, like why egypt, iran, palestine and iraq being were secular until recently
I'm glad Robert Shearer is speaking up. Chris Hedges, despite his forceful speaking style, and impressive resume, has a very hard time speaking to the points truly at hand. It's as if Hedges listens through a filter, then talks through a megaphone. Shearer does a very good job of tying Hedges scatter-shot passions into topics worth discussing.
Well mr Hegdes, Judaism does not produce, nor has ever produced suicide bombers! Jews does not preach nor palm off their religion to other people. Christianity and Islam are the only viruses on this planet, consciously spreading their disease. . .
armelix73: Judaism produces (or better buys) rockets, tanks and helicopters. No need for desperate, cheap suicide bombing when you've got far better and precise arms at handm, isn't it? To compare the way people is killing each other is cynical. There is no diff between suicide bombers and remotely guided rockets. The result is the same. Only the price is different. The core principal of all religions is ostracism. Its always "them or us" and never "both of us". Face it.
You seem to confuse notions. Judaism is a religion, Israel is a secular state. Islamists are fighting against the state of Israel, not Judaism. Hamas and Hezbollah are religious in nature, Israel is not. Thus, my previous statement stands as valid. . .
Moderator = knob
orbital92hotmail 1 month ago
8:30 + : Sam Harris swallows.
woodbell67 1 month ago
10:00 the women of the Muslim world should rise up and take power :D staby their husbands while they are sleeping. Then they can raise their sons out of this way of life.
There has to be some intervention, or things will continue to run rampant and violate their human rights.
Typho0n86 2 months ago
Sorry fanboys, Harris is completely out of his depth here. And the measure to which you fanboys defend Harris as somehow having a more advanced line of thinking only points up your own limitations.
Hedges' criticism of Harris as "bordering on racism" refered to the suggestion in Harris' book that Muslim mothers are proud of their sons' martyrdom. Hedges gives a complete explanation as to why this is not the case, but Harris doesn't even address Hedges' points. Weak, Harris, weak.
bapyou 4 months ago in playlist CHRIS HEDGES
@bapyou I agree, I think Hedges did nothing but bring up relevation points and critiscisms to Harrisis arguments
dvzqz87 2 months ago
@bapyou It's perfectly fine to criticize Harris' arguments as Hedges does, but to call it "racist" is just wrong and foolish. You don't need to play that card.
MichaelTheOliver 1 month ago 2
@MichaelTheOliver "Racist" is an absolutely correct characterization of Harris' comment.
bapyou 1 month ago
When policor fuckfarts come with the racism-card, it's obvious they have no argument
sonykroket 5 months ago
Who the hell cares what the moderator has to contribute? This debate shouldn't involve him.
johnjsal 5 months ago
Can't believe this guy played the racism card.
Joeofiowa 5 months ago
We have lots of poor people living in black africa, a lot poorer than the people form gaza. But, they do not blow themselves up, because they are not muslims.
bhigr 7 months ago 15
I like to see Sam live on a dollar a day for even a few months, I wont bother mimicking the conditions in Gaza, nor will i abuse him mentally or physically by killing his kids or taking his home. All i ask him to do is film himself. If he didn't go fuckin insane by the end of it, i would consider his pathetic attack on Palestinians plausible.I agree with religious stupidity but when it comes to Palestine Sam's clueless. Problem is he wont even admit it just to unnecessarily protect his position.
architect333 7 months ago
@architect333 Oh please. If poverty and oppression were enough to drive a society so barbaric that it would lead to suicide bombings and the murder of innocent people, then we should expect to see tibetan buddhists doing the same things. The tibetans have suffered from chinese oppression and poverty, yet they feel no need to take out their anger on non-combatants or civilians.
Drgamedood 7 months ago
@Drgamedood humans react differently to abuse, human history and war is loaded with self sacrifice in despairing times and war. Muslim's are warriors, they prefer to die before oppression. Japan was similar, we are no different, having a special term for it "collateral damage" and soldiers sacrifice. I mean is this even an argument? were still dealing with oppression, poverty, despair, manipulation, power, greed and aggressive war which are the underlying causes hedges points out.
architect333 7 months ago
@architect333 But why do they react differently? Both arab muslims and tibetan buddhists suffer the same things. Yet only one side commits horrible atrocities against innocent people. It's the religion that makes the difference. We are not going to see atrocities commited by "Jain Extremists" because no matter how miserable they are, their religion forbids any form of violence.
Drgamedood 7 months ago
@Drgamedood You seem to forget America invaded, and still occupies for 10 years now 2 nations while supporting a prison in Palestine, dictators all over the middle east. once this settles in you will realize using sam's pathetic argument jain's are not at war, Tibetan are clashing with Chinese, but would be foolish to push the super power to far and therefor remain in slaved, you not addressing hedges underlying factors,but actually agreeing to them or making the case it's ok to be abused.
architect333 7 months ago
@architect333 ur fucking stupid.
Drgamedood 7 months ago
@Drgamedood I mean look at the escalating school shootings by students, no religion involved and clearly murdering all abusers,innocents,and ending with suicide, classic example. sure some could have been religious,does it really matter? the underlying reasons are always the real cause. religion is simply a tool for good or bad just like any other ideology including politics as was recently the case in Norway. Hedges recognizes religion as a problem, but far bigger problems lay underneath.
architect333 7 months ago
@architect333
"live on a dollar a day"
Busted...
watch?v=nBKOOZOR7K4
"Palestine"
Oh really... What about the "Sudeten Germans"? Tell the "Palestinians to renunciate Islamofascism and Islamonazism and to build new lives wherever they are. Especially and preferably in "Greater Syria". On the other hand, ask their fellow Arab brothers to accept them as they should be accepted, allowing them to assimilate properly and not to misuse them for their own Islamofascist/nazi agendas.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@Wrath0fKhan Muslim's don't suicide because we offer food,education,homes. It's obvious insanity comes when u.s bombs happen to kill loved ones. Poverty only helps recruit indoctrinate soldiers for the other agendas. Religion is our first attempt at civilized order, any further then that, only underlies other factors associated with any fundamentalism, especially group thinking and political power grabs as your video describes. It's basically a fact poverty leads to despair n vulnerability.
architect333 7 months ago
@architect333
"when u.s. bombs happen to kill loved ones"
Estimates say that perhaps 2/3, maybe even 3/4 of all victims in these conflicts died at the hands of fellow "Muslims" (e.g. militant political groups claiming to be the "real Muslims"). Btw, when our parents, perhaps grand parents were fighting the Nazis, no one came up with such a nonsense just as you do.
"religion"
Religion has failed us all. Islam is evidently struggling most.
"poverty"
Doesnt lead to "jihadism" at all.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@Wrath0fKhan 'Doesnt lead to "jihadism'. then explain Scott atrans work in the field, to attempt to deny the universal conclusion poverty leads to hopelessness, struggle, vulnerability indoctrination and war is just pathetic. It's what history has been all about. Every war has been based on using the poor for someones agenda. At best jihad is what it is, a group of radical reformers using religion to unite against perceived injustice. And as invaders n occupiers hard to dismiss this fact.
architect333 7 months ago
@Wrath0fKhan As for religion, your beliefs are based on the foundation of religions before civilizations or societies got under way. At best you could say religions are obsolete today, particularly for well off educated people, but to deny the moral foundations and concepts discussed in philosophy is to ignore history or Dan Dennet's appreciation for religions in the past!
"Estimates say that perhaps?" you seem to ignore the fact they are in war, despair, poverty leading to power grabs. lol
architect333 7 months ago
@architect
"your beliefs are based on the foundation of religions before civilizations or societies got under way"
Dont know about that. For example like what? Im pretty much convinced you are in the process of committing some invalid logical operation right here. Id as well say it will pop up as soon as you provide the first concrete example.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@Wrath0fKhan oh please read Denial Dennet, you think Christianity has had no effect on forming behaviors and or cultural practices building the foundations for notions such as the need for forgiveness,charity,not to kill, sins,etc. Religion is nothing more the an attempt to explain life with limited knowledge, and a philosophy to behave, outdated it may be, you pretend it has not shaped or even dominated our morals/outlook from our barbarous past is to ignore history and human progression.
architect333 7 months ago
@architect333
"foundations for notions such as the need for ..."
Exactly... As Ive suspected. Here comes the genetic fallacy. Its totally irrelevant what you are saying. All these "things" exist without Christianity, existed before Christianity, exist in other religions and systems of thought and conduct, too. And because Christianity served as a cultural vehicle for some time, it does not follow that therefore Christianity is right or divine command theory is right, etc.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@Wrath0fKhan "does not follow that therefore Christianity is right or divine command theory is right, etc" this seems like an automated response without recognizing it had nothing to do with i said. we not talking about the validity of morals or religions. Read my statement again, and again if you need to, then put it into the context of the discussion which is how Christianity or any religion shaped behavior in society to present day.
architect333 7 months ago
@architect333
"not talking about validity of morals or religions"
Of course "we" are. More precisely thats what you seem to have suggested.
"shaped behavior"
I dont dispute that. I claim that "it" practically became irrelevant. Of course there are still people who adhere to some of the religious notions, some more some less, yet that doesnt matter, since the religion itself, as it was passed down the line of history, became irrelevant! So again; you are still committing the genetic fallacy.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@architect333
"you pretend"
No... I claim it is irrelevant (for our current purpose). A simple "Gedankenexperiment" nails it. If Christianity disappeared from history books, we would keep going on just as we do right now. If you educated people in "modern thought" only, they would have absolutely no need to invent Christianity at all. This implies the irrelevance of Christianity. (Of course this does not apply to a historic perspective, yet thats not in question.)
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@architect333
"barbarous past"
Yea... Christianity and barbarous past go well together. Ever heard of European religious wars? In those conflicts (and what resulted from them - e.g. epidemics) more people died in relation to total population than in WW1 and WW2 combined. This all happened at the peak of religion having a really firm grip on society.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@Wrath0fKhan k this is getting way to messy with comments, if you think ww's was the height of religion, you simply ignore history, the reformation, followed by secularism, newton's age of reason, and finally evolution which helped kill god. I'm afraid this is dragging on, i made my point in the comment ending with Politics as usual! respond to that leaving your point, not simply another fact, so I can understand you position and we can leave it at that. all the best
architect333 7 months ago
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@a
"At best you could say religions are obsolete today"
In general, religions (especially the relevant ones) make testable claims. Most of those testable claims were shown to be false. Hence comes the irrelevance. Adhering to demonstrably failed ideas is evidently disadvantageous if not outright futile.
"moral foundations"
Really? Like what? The divine command theory? Or what else did you have in mind?
"Dennet et al"
You mean as a study case - unraveling the mechanisms, histories, etc.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@architect333
"you seem to ignore the fact they are in war"
With themselves in the first place? Looks like to me.
"despair, poverty leading to power grabs"
Really? Looks like you didnt appreciate the (genuine) research (not punditry) Ive been relating to at all.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@Wrath0fKhan "With themselves in the first place?" thanks to the European domination just before entering the global age, followed by u.s domination of the world up until this very day. You unaware that we currently in 2 wars with them, and support dictators so we can control oil, keeping the people enslaved, poverty, despair, uneducated, resulting in the hope of religion?
"appreciate the research" she makes my case power grabs leads to manipulation/indoctrination to recruit soldiers/loyalty.
architect333 7 months ago
@architect
"thanks to the European domination"
Thank goodness! LOL
"followed by US domination"
I dont have any problems with "US domination". They dont force "me" into anything. Since "we" joined the "West", on average "things" have been running quite in our favor.
"2 wars with them"
No... Not with "them". In fact the US and allies are inwars with diverse "Islamic revivalists". Its these "revivalists" who have killed (again, as evidence seems to suggest) vast majority of all the victims.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@a
"she makes my case"
No! She does not!
"power grabs leads to manipulation/indoctrination"
Its "running" these (memetic) indoctrinating systems that lead to "grabs" (just like the attempts at reviving traditional Islam). As well, its not the poor ones who do this. Its rather affluent ones (specifically her point).
"to recruit soldiers/loyalty"
Yes. Yet this is exactly what "Uswa Hasana" did. They are just modeling their behavior according to him. Thats what "Uswa Hasana" implies, anyway.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago
@architect333 I simply agree with hedges fundamentalism comes from underlying causes, he does not suggest religion is not a problem, he's atheist! But suggests Religion can produce stupidity no more then any other ideology coupled with group thinking. In other words addressing the underlying problems he mentioned and dominated against sam's simplistic case of just believing. Most of the Arab world condemn jihads. Quran does not call for opposing sects, but unity for Muslims. Politics as usual!
architect333 7 months ago
@a
"most of the Arab world condemn jihads"
No... Most of the Arab and especially Muslim world ask for more Islam (e.g. 80%+ people in Pakistan would prefer if "rajm" was officially implemented as punishment against adulterers - see PEW). Yet "more Islam" (e.g. return to traditions) as well implies more "jihad".
"unity for Muslims"
Sure... Yet who will bring this unity? Who will lead them? Too many seem to make that claim. As well they seem to be fighting about nuances among themselves.
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Chris Hedges takes Harris to school.
Pertemba40 7 months ago
@Pertemba40 I hope you're joking. . .
fuckthedumb1 7 months ago 5
@Pertemba40
"Chris Hedges"
Is a tool of ignorance...
Wrath0fKhan 7 months ago 2
@Wrath0fKhan I love your channel dude. Pay no mind to idiots like bapyu. Just keep doing what you doing. :)
Drgamedood 7 months ago
Actually, this would probably have been a far better discussion if it was just between Sam Harris and the moderator.
DanDare2050 7 months ago 6
@DanDare2050 - if the moderator had a sock stuffed in his mouth. :D
gwcstudio 7 months ago
Whoever decided to allow applause during this debate was a fucking moron.
ArgoSG 10 months ago 3
the ramblings of the moderator are comical...something tells me he has never had a job outside academia .....he is so self unaware he has no idea how laughable he is.
funcpl2741054 10 months ago 21
@funcpl2741054 No, he just loves the sound of his own voice. And he likes to make sure everyone knows he knows stuff.
DaToNyOyO 5 months ago
"The only way they can reaffirm themselves is by death". Complete nonsense, they can escape to USA and get a job in a free country, we should create some kind of policy to welcome people to our countries who want to escape and become agnostics and leave their religion behind.
SeeProfileForDetails 11 months ago
K im a huge Sam Harris fan but everyone listen. Islamic people are pissed off due to political reasons. Put anyone in that position and they will crash planes into buildings (look at Joseph Stacks). Yes Islam is harmful to society like any religion. But the attacks are because of American Policy. Almost strictly American Policy. It's harmful to think its not. WE need to recognize how American policy affects the world. Don't blame it on Islam.
johnpotter26 1 year ago
" WE need to recognize how American policy affects the world. Don't blame it on Islam." ~ JP
No one is claiming Islam is the ONLY problem, Sam even admits this a couple times in this debate. The question is not whether there is ONE problem, but how Islam affects the reactions to a problem. The FACT is that the radical islamist mindset is gearing the reactions towards irrational, suicidal violence. OTHER reactions, like the recent events in Egypt, are SUPPORTED by the US.
Reerrpad5515 1 year ago
So the question then becomes, "What is the difference between reacting against your own oppressive governments, which have been supported by the US in the past, and simply reacting against the US?". The answer is two-fold: the first scenario produces support from the western world, while the second produces bombs from the western world.
Lashing out against large nations for political grievances in your own is not an acceptable means of protest, and it is not the key to reform.
Reerrpad5515 1 year ago
Sam's fundamental complaint is the irrational, superstitious foundation upon which Islamists, christian fundamentalists, and others build their reactions to events in the world. His main point is that these belief systems produce behavioral results which do little, if any, good towards remedying the REAL problem. Apocalyptic visions of the world achieve nothing but apocalypse when seen to their end, and that, I think we can agree, solves nothing.
Reerrpad5515 1 year ago
Hedges and the moderator implies that even if religion is useless, we should keep it and focus on curing human evil instead. It would be like saying homeopathy is useless and does nothing, so we should keep it and not heavily criticize it or attack it, because at least homeopathy does some good for many people. If this is the case, why don't we also justify all sorts of other things too - if believing in the tooth fairy helps adults, should we not encourage that false b.s. to be believed?
SeeProfileForDetails 11 months ago 2
If anyone thinks Islam is non-violent, I have 3 words for them. :p
YA HYA CHOUHADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
lefredvoncarstein 1 year ago
@lefredvoncarstein "If anyone thinks Islam is non-violent, I have 3 words for them."
If anyone thinks that Christianity is non-violent, I have a few words for them: Pat Robertson and his admonition to "take out" Hugo Chavez. American soldiers in Iraq & Afghanistan regularly pray Christian prayers before they go out & shoot up the countryside. When it comes to violence, Christianity does not have an upper moral hand.
The Gospel of John (3:18-20) promotes complete hatred of non-Christians.
bapyou 11 months ago
@bapyou //Pat Robertson and his admonition to "take out" Hugo Chavez.//
The difference is. Christians are not compelled to obey everything well known christian figures say. In fact, many have criticized pat.
//American soldiers in Iraq & Afghanistan regularly pray Christian prayers before they go out & shoot up the countryside. //
Most americans are against the war. Plus the american military, unlike islamic militants, have strict rules against killing non-combatants and civilians.
Drgamedood 11 months ago
@bapyou err. did you get the point of what i said? i am guessing not.
lefredvoncarstein 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lefredvoncarstein "did you get the point of what i said?" Yes.
Did you get the point of what I wrote? Apparently no.
bapyou 11 months ago
Robert Scheer is a huge windbag that doesn't know how to moderate. Ruined what could have been an interesting debate.
scudder99 1 year ago 4
Hedges, like so many others seems to think Iraq should instantly now become a wonderfully democratic country now that the US has dismantled Saddam Hussein. It will take a few decades, maybe 40 or 50 years before that country will begin to see the benefits of what that sick war did ... but it wil come.
Look at Russia or the Czech Republic ... it has taken decades for those countries to slowly become better and better.
dweeper1020 1 year ago
it's irrelevant whether or not individual institutions are secular, what is important is what do the people who support those institutions believe. the US is a secular nation and even that didn't stop a religious lunatic from taking power and advancing religious agendas
HolyFictionOrg 1 year ago
That moderator is a real piece of work.
lashkaretoiba 1 year ago 4
chris playing the race card was really cheap. he had no argument...
13stevejohnson 1 year ago 6
Dear Moderator,
SSSSHHHHUUUUUUUUTTTTTT UUUUUUPPPPPP!!!!
AnotherMasterMind 1 year ago 79
grasping race is grasping straws, it is a point guaranteed to incite a response. a response that can be a smoke screen. he flails and fails. Hedges is a waffling moderate apologist grasping..he has no credibility..he just knows how to punctuate his weak points with hot points that are easy crowd pleasers
eahazell 1 year ago
I am in complete disbelief of this moderator-STFU!!! You are a moderator not a member of the debate!
dnallred 1 year ago 3
This guy is the worst moderator I have ever seen. This is a debate between two people. Why is he voicing his experience an opinion? He is obviously uncomfortable and insecure about sitting between these two. There is a reason his is not invited to debate. There is a reason is moderating. He needs to recognize this reason
sing1995 1 year ago 8
man I hate this moderator.
doedicurus 1 year ago 5
Boy, Hedges doesn't know much about Islam for someone who claims to have spent some time in the Muslim world. No apparent idea that the Quranic verses which are deplorable are not cast in historical as Biblical ones we do not like. When in the Bible God says do this or that to such and such a people, there's a clear sense that was then and those people (for whatever reason, good or bad). In the Quran, it's maybe there was an historical context but it's not clear and it's still for all time.
12ut5 1 year ago
muslim countries??
johnnyd101 1 year ago
Hedges is just stupid.
Pacinofan78 1 year ago
@Pacinofan78
Are you serious? Hedges is extremely well read and worldly. He does an excellent job of exposing Harris's overly simplistic ideas about world events. Society is very complex...that's his point. This idea that the complete secularization of society will progress us toward some utopian future completely ignores man's basic nature, one that religion's have understood for centuries: man is wolf to man
rntlee 1 year ago
@rntlee Robert Wright also addresses this point in his book, "The Moral Animal." Desperation produces adaptation, which is what man does best.
isisdron 1 year ago
@rntlee Are you serious? Hedges (and this "moderator") are a pair of ignorant morons...they are constantly giving their resumes in some vain attempt to gain credibility for their weak arguments. Please listen to the agruments given. Without religions there would still be tribalism to overcome...it's everywhere and takes many forms...
RayThaw 1 year ago 8
The main problem with Harris is that his argument is ahistorical. In doing this, he fails to take in any political, sociological, or economic factors that develop over time and produce current realities. It's not apologetic, it's explanatory. In fact, it seems like whenever these issues arise, he jumps back and says '... well the Koran says THIS!' So I'm gonna have to say, Harris loses.
brucejuice52 1 year ago
How does Hedges not see the direct connection between Islam and the actions of the suicide bombers he talked about? If they were not religious, believing in an afterlife and a reward for the action they take, one strains to think of a reason that would motivate a suicide bombing.
inademv 1 year ago 5
@inademv The society has create fame for it, what motivates americans to do things that seem crazy granted they do not typically kill themselves. But are the kids who go killing at schools motivated by religion? Or is it to become famous and revenge... How is that so different than to those in palestine doing this? The Quran if you look into, you can debate his message, but on suicide its clearly against it. Preservation of life seems to be one of the main focal points. Yet they ignore it.
ASexyChef 1 year ago
A moderator's job is not to eat up half the time by telling us what HE things about the subject. His job is to facilitate the conversation between the debaters. Regardless of his credentials, this guy is an awful moderator.
mrw21 1 year ago 5
When the crowd are applauding a comment the moderator makes, you need a more impartial moderator!
GodTheHypothesis 1 year ago 2
I wish the moderator would SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!
I don't give a shit what he has to say!
The debate is between the two guys on stage.
He needs to learn his role as a moderator.
Quellers 1 year ago
Harris makes good points; although he is completely outclassed by Hedges. Harris has no field experience; no first hand knowledge.
Randys138 1 year ago 2
religion undermines progress.
somalia is about 100% believers
DSCW33 1 year ago
Why are there so many thumbs down on this particular video? It´s good quality, a good discussion and Harris makes some great points., even Hedges manages to makea few ones as well).
papasitoman 1 year ago
@papasitoman Logically its because religious people do not like what they say.. Yet the thumbs up still are more than the downs on the video.
ASexyChef 1 year ago
Wow, Harris really dealt Hedges an incredible blow with his last speech before the end of this video. Hedges loses his head here and doesn't try to salvage any of his points, which is great. But then goes on to make a classic 'it seems' point based on a passage from Harris' book.
That was an amazing rebuttal though. The Ayaan Hirsi Ali point really put the icing on the cake there. Made it come full circle.
countertreason 1 year ago
I don't think Harris thinks we should rid Muslim culture of their religion so much as he wants to rid the WORLD of ALL religion. He is arguing that blending iron age philosophies with modern weaponry is dangerous. He further argues (elsewhere) that religious moderates give "cover" for extremists by, in a sense, allowing them to hold unreasonable ideas without evidence (faith).
moonymoomoo 1 year ago
8:40 Hedges: "Demonizing Islam for hateful passages in the Koran holds no more validity than demonizing Judaism." Exactly, it is just as valid.
fctchk 1 year ago 5
@fctchk hahahahahaha, i like this comment
pp0u50f3 1 year ago
It's 2 vs 1 here but Harris completely crushes them both.
ray38montreal 1 year ago 6
It just shows how belief-crazed people are when they cite bad things from other religions to defend religion itself.
jodiebug1 1 year ago
I don't know much about proper debate format or whatever. Why does everyone think the moderator is so bad? Did he talk too much? was he too opinionated?
mhennek 1 year ago
Yes, the moderator isn't supposed to do anything other than get things moving along. He can pick up a point that maybe one side missed, but when you continually jump into the fray it doesn't make you look neutral whatsoever.
He debased the hell out of this debate.
SocialDissimulation 1 year ago
sam should have responded: yes despair drives them into the arms of religion, but those are not the best arms to run to. let's give everyone something better!
birdlivesforever 1 year ago
Moderator; this is not a talk show. Terrible moderator ever exist.
ET45349D 2 years ago 2
There are Muslims who are oppressed by Islam and then there are oppressed Muslims who use Islam to fight against oppression. They both miss this point and talk in circles.
Is violence not justified against oppression? Hedges talked about the oppressed Palestinians in pretty good detail and Harris had nothing to say about it. Harris either supports this oppression or just doesn't care for it (seeming that he quotes Dershowitz in his book). It's naive to just brush it off as religious stupidity.
bjarczyk 2 years ago
I think Harris does a pretty good job here considering the way Sheer piles on, misrepresents and attacks. While Sheer is a good columnist he's a terrible moderator.
MaryJesusJoseph 2 years ago 3
9:00 the difference is that Islam has not been dragged to the secular society that we supposedly have but Christianity has the same problems but with decades and decades of secular wisdom
alejandronoe 2 years ago
This is the most bias MODERATOR of all time!
TheDrunkenAtheist 2 years ago 113
@TheDrunkenAtheist i think the moderator from "hitchens vs 4 christians" was worse, but this guy is still pretty bad
memento18poker 1 year ago
@TheDrunkenAtheist He's not even really a moderator. He's more like a third participant.
countryjim13 1 year ago 5
@TheDrunkenAtheist yes. and he is a moron.
iloverumi 11 months ago
@TheDrunkenAtheist That is a great username.
GleekItsOlly 11 months ago
@TheDrunkenAtheist He needs to learn the meaning of the word "moderator." This guy is unbearable!
crackingskulls 7 months ago 4
Chris Hedges is pitching to the anti-war crowd like a clown to a baby.
Hedges offers no alternative to any situation. All he can muster is..
"Harris is being racist (for some reason Muslim is an ethnicity now), Harris is a war-mongerer, Harris doesn't know what he's talking about because he didn't spend two decades wandering around the Middle East like me."
Yet, he only briefly and vaguely describes that economic, and social pressures inflict the society. He's useless in a debate.
visualkei72 2 years ago 10
dude he gave a very tangilble reason for people to be entangled in despair. You dont have to be poor to be depressed and he gave a good example of it. And sam generalizes about an area hes never been in.
For example: Im sure you can tell me about what goes on in your house better than i can because i dont live in your house and never have. Even if i see you in your house a couple times, you know way more about it. Thats what hedges brings to the table.
Owunthrizzel 2 years ago
@visualkei72 I wouldn't have gone with the racist argument, but what's troubling to me about Sam's book is when he says (I forget which chapter) that the west should consider a preemptive nuclear first strike against a religious enemy.
Meloman0001 2 years ago
@visualkei72--Sam Harris had the same debate with Scott Atran, Scott is one of the leading experts on this field and he accuses Sam of talking nonsense also. I think their all right in their own way in that their on the same side in this debate. Scott Atran says people are driven to fight against the west by the horrors they witness against innocent people in the middle east.
And I'm no fan of Islam or political correctness toward Islam, I think theres two seperate issues here.
shallbeagain 2 years ago
The moderator should not interrupt so often. It distracts from the debate.
donnyv78 2 years ago 5
Ben Stiller would do a great Harris
shatner99 2 years ago 5
Hi I'm Sam Haris I've poorly researched the middle-east please take seriously
side1981 2 years ago
I reckon Hedge's must have sold himself to the Islamists who had him incarcerated. He keeps decrying arguments that Harris himself doesn't support ..... disingenuous ass! His determination to remain ignorant in the face of all evidence that he is ignorant is the vehicle by which the West as a whole will commit suicide to a backward intolerant 8th century ideology. Just as the common muslim is brainwashed by their religious leaders, so are we who give credence to this smarmy apologist.
gallus1 2 years ago
@gallus1
Anyone who opens there eyes and knows what is happening in Palestine which is Ethinic cleansing, would have to be atheist. Your hate for Islam shows your true Identity.
360atGOD 2 years ago 2
Ur right,anyone who knows whats happening in palestine can be an atheist. But its in the name of theism that so much slaughter is done. You prove my point, it is murder in the name of God...whether Jew, Christian or Muslim.......i hope my true identity is fully clear, you nullity. Only the theist (whatever form of the virus you are inflicted with) once convinced of an absurdity (god) will then find it easy to commit the attrocity. Frame it in religion and the theist will do anything in its name
gallus1 2 years ago 2
@gallus1
Wrong again. If you know 95% of Israel doesn't practice Judaism or any other religion, you would know they are atheist. Israelis have a extreme hatred for Muslim, and religion in general. " Zionism is the demon, and it is under the guise of religion.. More manipulation, of man.
360atGOD 2 years ago
@360atGOD 95% huh.....i thought you might have had something worthy of listening to......my mistake.
toodle-pip
God B.less
gallus1 2 years ago
@gallus1
Good night zionist
360atGOD 2 years ago
I never understand why people defending religion (as Chris Hedges is doing here) always bring up socio-economic factors and say, "So they had no choice but to turn to religion..." as if they makes religion any better! IF RELIGION CAN SO EASILY CORRUPT THE MIND OF SOMEONE WHO HAS LEGITIMATE POLITICAL/ECONOMIC GRIEVANCES... DOESN'T THAT STILL SHOW THAT RELIGION IS BAD???
Amorisey2010 2 years ago
Ok Hedges has officially lost my respect with the whole "the passages in the Hebrew bible are on the same footing with the hateful passages in the quran". oh come off it. as Harris states, you will find in NO other religion on earth, such a detailed and eloquent account of hatred of infidels then you do in Islam. Islam took the worst of the Hebrew bible and managed to make it even more horrific.
BillKiernan 2 years ago
this moderator is not moderating but siding with Hedges.
BillKiernan 2 years ago 2
And babbling too much.
TBlake34 2 years ago
i really think hedges is being purposefully obscuring. i agree with his views on the political circumstances surrounding gaza, but it seems as if he's just using this to dodge sam's larger point about the influence of insane metaphysical views on behavior, hiding behind the applause of the audience
chupacabra 2 years ago 4
by anti-scientific I mean Ad Hoc. that's all.
Harris speaks to a rebellious anti-religious group of people. For better or worse this group is growing. this rebellion, if people are smart enough and have enough courage, will help these people like Harris and those who follow him to realize religion is not the problem. the problem is, as Hedges maintains, tribalism.
Tribalism comes in more forms then religion. Once you notice this religion becomes a non-issue. It's like 'whatever dude'
incubatorfunk 2 years ago
Thank God(lol) that someone else understands that side of the discussion.
mutefx 2 years ago
thanks mutefx!
I wrote another post but it didnt go through. It was about Harris dodging (for real, not like people claim Hedges does) Rob's question about Iraq going from a "basically secular society" to embracing suicide bombings after the US occupation. Harris says "well i think this goes to show that we underestimated the religious presence in Iraq"(3:30).
I said that was Ad Hoc (because it is). But this is characteristic of Harris throughout the debate.
incubatorfunk 2 years ago
Your right, he did sidestep that one.
To me, Harris just seems to come off as a sort of a know-it-all who scoffs at the idea that socio-economic circumstances could drive people to commit horrible injustices JUST AS MUCH as religous intolerance could.
The fact is, atheists have the potential, because of their (apparent) moral & intellectual superiority, to be just as intolerant of the religous as the religous are of them. The other side is simply a threat, it's that black & white to them.
mutefx 2 years ago
Sam Harris in other debates (perhaps also in this one) clearly states that religion is not the ONLY source of conflict, merely that it is indeed A source.
That's the whole point of his message. Why are we so scared of admitting that simple fact. Indeed sometimes people want stronger socio/economic circumstance . But maybe, just maybe, they also sometimes simply want acknowledgment from a prideful father in the sky . They SAY as much. Why do we continue to "scoff" at their own admission.
chrizdb 2 years ago
Who is really influenced by a particular religion so much so that it encompasses their whole life? not many in the core countries. more so people whom have nothing left but their religion.
How does Harris propose to remedy this? apparently Harris wants to nuke them, go to war with them, bomb them. Granted he may have some other ideas which would be at least acceptable but these horrible ideas obfuscate a sane and rational discourse. and they're really just hate mongering.
incubatorfunk 2 years ago
Yeah! I like what Hedges says about the externalization of evil. That's what christian fascists do and thats what he's saying people like Harris and Hitchens are doing. I read Karl Poppers' "the open society and its enemies", it was a very good two volume book. Best thing I ever read. Hedges uses a lot of concepts from that book even though he quotes theologians more often. Glad there is someone out there thinking with their head straight. oh and nice montage!
incubatorfunk 2 years ago 4
Would you agree that Islamofascists externalize evil in much the same way as far right Christians?
Would you say Islam - as a philosophy or set of teachings, if you will - poses no more threat to the world than, say, the teachings of Buddhism or Janism? If so, then from where, for instance, are the Iranian theocratic fascists getting their permission to carry out stonings for apostasy, gender-based subjugation, forced conversions and more?
moiphx2 2 years ago
Externalizing 'evil' is an element of fascism. But Hedges quotes Umberto Eco in American Fascists as saying fascist movements may or may not have any number of the elements he would call fascistic. That said, I have no idea. Understanding fascists hurts my brain.
to your second point: Hedges' argument is that none of these religions are harmful in and of itself.
your third point: The Iranian theocracy don't ask permission. or if they do it is through a system of closed societal taboos
incubatorfunk 2 years ago
Thanks for the response.
P.S, To be fair, they weren't points, they were questions. I'm not really into starting online arguments.
moiphx2 2 years ago 2
I wish the chairman would just STFU and let these two guys debate.
vornander9 2 years ago 2
@vornander9
I guess they know there's no way *one* idiot can beat Harris in a debate, so they're trying a tag team approach (and still failing terribly) :p
Gliktch 2 years ago
Harris got owned!
DakotaMutated 2 years ago
He did?
mattyohe 2 years ago
You are retarding progress by not acknowledging the differences between religions. They all share one thing in common: the worship of dogmatic bullshit. But let's not say they all teach the same things and to the same extents for some politically correct prerogative. Good for Harris.
athlete117 2 years ago 2
No they don't, Harris even acknowledges that.
DomingoHMaCoolstein 2 years ago
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sam harris should be headed for insulting islam! islam rule the world!
samgee2007 2 years ago
So the repeated daily cries of "death to america, praise allah, glory to islam" is completely divorced from religion? There's absolutely no connection between middle eastern viloence and the desire for a caliphate? Sharia law just happens to be the reflexive response of the oppressed?
If all this is caused by oppression, completely unrelated to religious ideology, why is it we have no Buddhist suicide bombers attacking China over grievances in Tibet?
kaeBR 2 years ago
Might it be, oh, I don't know....the fucking fundamental difference in the ideology they subscribe to driving their response to their conditions?
Beliefs do not exist in a vacuum.
kaeBR 2 years ago
Buddhists dont use the quaran. I think we can say that religion is a part of the problems in the middle east but we can not say that it is the source or the only problem there. Religion does not explain every problem in the middle east.
Owunthrizzel 2 years ago
Arabs explain every problem in the middle east.
Glad Harris points this out, used to hate him but now he's gold.
DakotaMutated 2 years ago
Thats quite a racist statement. Harris does somewhat say that though. He thinks that one poll can tell us everything we need to know about the middle east and thats ridiculous especially when the guy hes debating has lived there for over 5 years. Thats like me tellin sam harris what goes on in his house. I would never claim to know more about an area than someone who lives there. You are bound to sound ignorant. Books an polls cant give you experience and wisdom
Owunthrizzel 2 years ago
what is this, 2v1? some debate...
ryanb9 2 years ago
why is it that when the arguments of theist are being slaughtered and even their chair is bleeding because of the battering, they stil keep on talking?
johnnyvi 2 years ago 4
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9:02 point to hedges - who knew harris and bush had so much in common
nubbs 2 years ago
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wow, talk about harris fighting a straw man. hedges didn't say his criticism of islam borders on racism, he said his false description of palestinian mothers who do not grieve but celebrate the death of their children borders on racism, as it's based on the racist assumption that palestinian mothers are by nature inhumanly indurate to the suffering of their children
it's pathetic how harris keeps avoiding the questions, like why egypt, iran, palestine and iraq being were secular until recently
nubbs 2 years ago
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nubbs 2 years ago
When Hedges played the race card, he lost all credibility in my mind. Religion is not a race.
heathdwatts 2 years ago 63
he was talking about being Palestinian, which isn't a religion but isn't a race either.
luckyclover012 2 years ago
@heathdwatts Totally. What a weak puss!
rooflee 1 year ago
@heathdwatts indeed i like you
FIGHTFANNERD3 1 year ago
@heathdwatts Yeah, there was nothing racist at all in anything Sam said.
paolung 1 year ago
Moderator! shut the fuck up let them talk ...
babakbiglari 2 years ago 8
I'm glad Robert Shearer is speaking up. Chris Hedges, despite his forceful speaking style, and impressive resume, has a very hard time speaking to the points truly at hand. It's as if Hedges listens through a filter, then talks through a megaphone. Shearer does a very good job of tying Hedges scatter-shot passions into topics worth discussing.
LaWrytr 2 years ago
Well mr Hegdes, Judaism does not produce, nor has ever produced suicide bombers! Jews does not preach nor palm off their religion to other people. Christianity and Islam are the only viruses on this planet, consciously spreading their disease. . .
armelix73 3 years ago
armelix73: Judaism produces (or better buys) rockets, tanks and helicopters. No need for desperate, cheap suicide bombing when you've got far better and precise arms at handm, isn't it? To compare the way people is killing each other is cynical. There is no diff between suicide bombers and remotely guided rockets. The result is the same. Only the price is different. The core principal of all religions is ostracism. Its always "them or us" and never "both of us". Face it.
WolYou 3 years ago 10
You seem to confuse notions. Judaism is a religion, Israel is a secular state. Islamists are fighting against the state of Israel, not Judaism. Hamas and Hezbollah are religious in nature, Israel is not. Thus, my previous statement stands as valid. . .
armelix73 3 years ago
Not very secular. It is a jewish state.
1CountryIndivisible 2 years ago
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Christianity hasn't produced suicide bombers too
HecklerBoy7 2 years ago
Hes kinda right. Sam harris probably missed to do his cultural research. But that doesnt mean that Harris is wrong
Nades129 3 years ago