Chomsky vs Bolkestein : Dutch Debate

[DeweyZinnChomskyFisk]

i have the full interview on my computer. i must've either downloaded it from iSoHunt or ThePirateBay. possibly Demonoid but probably not

[SUpersaiyajinjerkbag]

IS there a full debate?

[Trinivalts]

I loved what he said about conspiracy theories, so many people dismiss strong points with this booo phrase these days.

[littleflags]

anyone know where i can find the FULL debate? i would love to watch it in it's entirety but can't find it anywhere!

[HumaninSeoul]

"Intellectual Intimidation"

Translation: He trying to win the debate by being smarter than me, [insert tears here]

[henkiskwaad]

In a sense this is what Stalinism amounts to - Chomsky's insisting that all that matters is the absence of coercive capital. "We must replace, condemn, and - well, live by capitalism." The original comrades were far more human - they went for themselves, rallied people to action, believed in the power of the proletariat subjectively - they believed in the good. They didn't care if they needed to use words, money or arms - but then, they had an incredibly weak opponent in the spineless Czar.

[BCsJonathanTM]

He accuses Chomsky of a straw man and then mounts an attack with an appeal to bad character by non sequitur-ing into an a marginalization of his dissent?

AHAHAHA... FAIL

(ps, I'm new at all this, and very excited by it all, so please excuse any poor writing above)

[ninjacobra]

Go Chomsky!

[Otzmatron]

'An attempt at Intellectual intimidation' and 'Ways of the bully'? Argh! Gimme all your lunch money or I'mma smash your face in, with... my lengthy dissertation? What is this scatterbrained wish-wash? And in what what world does data constitute a straw man argument? Who is this man was he half-asleep when he decided to go on a personal vendetta against Chomsky?

[henkiskwaad]

@Otzmatron The straw man Bolko refers to in his panic is Chomsky's 'violent imposition of terrible data' on the limited space his audience has for a notion of capitalist reality. He makes it seem as if his data, which is true as well as terrible, is a representation of the entire system of which it is part.

In other words, Bolko objects to Chomsky's notion of manufacture of consent as the fundamental logos of western democracy. Bolko is right because it is a dialectic, not a perfect imposition.

[SUpersaiyajinjerkbag]

Wheere can I find the full debate?

[jeff5102]

I see I said almost the same twice. My apologies.

[jeff5102]

The editing of this film is very confusing. I can hardly believe that Bolkestein left after five minutes. Furthermore, what is that boxing match doing there inbetween?

It is a very "LordPrivySeal"-ish report, I should say.

[florisbolkestein]

@jeff5102 Of course he did not leave in five minutes, if you only knew how busy he always is you would understand

[jeff5102]

@florisbolkestein I do understand that. That is why I complain about the editing, and not about Bolkestein´s behaviour.

And about that editing, please search on `Lordprivyseal` on Youtube.

[florisbolkestein]

@jeff5102 Actually it wouldn’t surprise me if this movie is made by a American or somebody slightly in favour of Chomsky.

[rspawn]

Bolkestein had to read from his prepared script, he can not improvise, except maybe by injecting poorly hidden insults.

[SUpersaiyajinjerkbag]

@rspawn

No, yo liberalism is a nuisance and VIOLATING MY CONSERVATIVE FREEDOM!!

[TheLastAnarchist69]

You know, I love Chomksy. Certainly one of my heroes, no doubt. I'm still trying to get an interview with him for the magazine I right for - he's since declined most of my offers, for those who are interested - but mainly because I disagree with a few of the things he says. Luckly, Chomsky IS an intellectual, and doesn't mind having a discussion about subjects. With this example here - no contest. That idiot had to leave suddenly because he was getting embarresed.

[MrSalamander7]

This was as one-sided as the Ali VS Liston fight.

[pfoff013]

@sleeperkickers c'est ce que je pensais merci pour ta reponse.En france sa commence a devenir comme en amerique !! petit a petit les esprits libres sont boycotté voir meme diabolisé..(désolé mais ton francais est bien meilleur que mon americain; j'espere que tu me comprendras quand meme)

@deslauriersmatthew etes vous a l'université au etats unis?

[AussiePolitics]

chomsky still denies that the Khmer Rouge slaughtered millions of people in cambodia.

[CJWilly]

Long live Noam Chomsky!

[AndroidPolitician]

Like shortly after saying that chomsky got his information from US newspapers (even though Chomsky got it from human rights reports)

He says that Chomsky ANSWERING the question is a straw man. Like what the hell.

[AndroidPolitician]

Jesus christ Bolkestein can't even touch on the issues without using dishonest tactics.

[fleawill]

From what I gather the oldest intellectual trick on record is to present overwhelming amounts of evidence and to thoroughly footnote their research.

[pfoff13000]

chomsky est un grand homme!! un des rare a lutter contre la propagande ,la guerre , l'imperialisme ...les francais ne le connaissent pas! trop de censures.... je me demande si chomsky est aimé en amerique?si un americain comprend le francais sa serais bien!

[deslauriersmatthew]

les américains ne le connaissent pas non plus. meme les professeurs de mon université ne le connaissent pas. je pense que c'est pourquoi tout le monde ici pense qu'il est trop radical, meme les "liberals"

[sleeperkickers]

@deslauriersmatthew tout a fait. c'est tres dangereux a parler comme lui..

[sleeperkickers]

@pfoff13000 oui on lui connait mais pas bp de gens.. vous avez raison, aux etats-unis il faut avoir le courage a parler contre ces choses... ils lui appellent "anti-american" c'est dommage je pense, mais a etre un americain vrai, il faut etre "un-american". j'suis desole, mon francais est merde...

[DBaudino]

4zion4life - Chomsky is the guy wearing glasses, not the other guy. You must have them confused - seems to be the only way your comments would make sense. (He was also wearing glasses when he "ripped" Buckley a new one.)

[worriedaboutlife]

maybe chomsky wins because the other guy is not speaking in his mother tongue?

[4zion4life]

the best parts follow, too bad motsor2 censored it out for your liberal pleasure

[4zion4life]

Bolke ripped Chomsky's a new one.

I always said that Chomsky is nothing but a pseudo-intellectual poseur.

Check out his interview with Buckley.

[JimmyeDallas]

Have you ever even read Manufacturing Conscent?

[josgvis]

Bolkenstein is a Bilderberger, that tells me enough, who's in heaven's name in the audience, what a ingorant bunch of idiots to take Bolkenstein serious. Een zelfingenomen eliet, dat is de titel die ik hem geef!

[michielhuis]

plz show they full version. This is verry one-sided editted.

[njanjej]

kellymich, mm. I´m thinking about the capitalism expirament. And I don´t know what to say...

[upsidown13]

I seems to me that Bolkestein was really badly edited in this video. He's actually a very smart guy. He is one of the main promoters of free trade and free markets in the EU.

[kahmed89]

Chomsky strongly supported his arguments

[AnonymousWhitePerson]

Bolkestein talks like Dracula.

[Frankfritz]

Intellectual Idiots!

[flyhead2]

I'll remove the adjective, exclamation mark and the plural denominator, and leave that as my reply to you. I will throw in a full stop, just as a sign of respect for your comment.

[jeremybalfe]

Wow, I think this Bolkestein clowned got owned by Chomsky even worse than Richard Perle was.

[polymath7]

That's a bold statement. The Perle debate is likely the most thorougoing intellectual trouncing I have ever seen.

If you ever hear someone say they're skepical that any public debate is ever completely one-sided, that's the example to cite to disabuse them. Not halfway through, Perle stammers "I..I have no answer to that...". Chomsky just sodomizes, decapitates, and skullfucks him from every conceivable angle.

Then again, Bolkestein actually seems to shit himself and run for the crapper.

[ysfaljanabi]

tell me one thing that bush hasn't lied about then?

YSF

[godjei]

excuse me. first comment was meant for gzaly and 2nd was for the first one to comment on this vid. youtube messes up i guess

[BadMunckY]

That's a poor debate indeed, as you have on one hand someone who knows what he is talkin about, and on the other hand a guy who can't produce more than a few childish provocations. Anyway we Europeans already know Bolkestein and very few of us have a good opinion of this guy, and this does not help for sure.

[kellymich]

Sadly you are right about chomsky's opponent in this so called debate BadMunckY. He does a poor job.

Nevertheless, those involved in the movements for classless societies and the "end of exploitation" have so far produced tremendous human horror and suffering themselves-- in the name of ending exploitation-- 100 million people were killed during the 20th centuries socialistic expiraments-- around 18 times the number of Jews killed by Germany's facist regime.

[ElCHuey]

interesting end remarks. Still valid today as the day Chomsky said them.

[beaminbk]

Interesting. Chomsky was only given a general topic, but Bolkestein had statements prepared.

[godjei]

I agree. But I dont think it's just the Dutch people having this problem.

En aan bolkestein, ik hoop dat je je schaamt voor deze wanvertoning. Een politicus die geen debat durft te voeren, grappig doch triest.

[Ozonx]

I think it is just this guy who is an idiot.

[YuriKenobi]

Is the entire debate found anywhere?

[allthings509]

Run away neocon loser.

This is the reason these moron neocons are afraid of debate and need constant chaos and war, because they cannot possibly win any debate, not on any point. Dirty stupid cowards.

[croscream]

@allthings509

Oh noes, leftist political histeria.

[florisbolkestein]

@allthings509 , Funny that you think he ran away, if you saw his agenda you probably would understand that he had to leave.

[DJHarrie]

@allthings509 so true - today Bolkestein is actually revered as a pioneering liberal intellectual in the Netherlands, but there you have it - in a land of hysterics the mediocre half-wit is an authority, the conscientious scholar an "extremist"

[henkiskwaad]

@DJHarrie But the problem is that Chomsky, as a scholar, poses as a philosopher, which he is not - he has no comprehensive idea or vision. His analyses of how 'evil' (let's call it that) works are very conscientious, but he never takes a step to explain the context in which this evil is able to exist.

Bolko is, though less conscientious in his approach to this debate, more 'in touch with' reality, in that he accepts it. Chomsky does dream a boys dream - he has no solutions, no world-view.

[henkiskwaad]

@allthings509 They are too busy making money. They could only win by being honest and that would take too much time. Power is in organization, not in statement of facts. Organization is a time consuming occupation and also results in a much different view of reality - a subjective, involved one (I try to do the best I can for myself and those who I know enough to matter to me emotionally). Chomsky holds an emotionally objective and intellectually passive view; the negative valuation of reality.

[Leibo07]

One should add one thing. Bolkestein has said : "There is no NEO-liberalism, only liberalism full stop".

He might be right, there?

[Leibo07]

It means you employ workers from elsewhere, say Poland in, say Holland, via flexwork of course, but on the wages & "contracts" of Poland. It is vulgar wagepushing.

Furthermore he was on the forefront of Islamophobia: rather long before Fortuyn he wrote books on the 'Culture Clash' in Holland. Fortuyn, Wilders and Verdonk are all Bolkestein-creaturs, and almost all former party members, too.

[Leibo07]

At 4.06 when talking about direct democracy, Bolkestein : "It is the dream of a boy, too."

Bolkestein is a prominent member of the "VVD"

--> they are the right wing liberals. They are especially strong in health care's management. Later on Bolkestein got a high position in EU and now his name's intertwined with the 'B-directive' (Lissabon agenda).

[4ourthofjuly]

that is the most interesting part, bc you dont have to rely on someone elses research. it just fell.

and it is kind of odd. i suppose i could look up that 'popular mechanics' article.

[4ourthofjuly]

the wtc conspiracy is kind of silly.

[Wabiisabii]

Ya soon as the old blithering fool started calling him names and said he was packing up his toys and going home. I started laughing. Wow he was totally ripped apart on nearly every level of his debate. He just wanted to pontificate, and his last point of view was retarded, he basically said freedom was a boys a dream and people needed to be ruled. And I bet he thought he was the one to do it.

[italstal07]

chomsky has been trying to change the us for decades..the american people are so lazy they don't even know who he is..they watch dancin with the stars..

[IntelligentHoodlum]

the tone and language you use is repulsive. it makes it sound like chomsky is a god and that the ignorant masses do not realize his divinity.

[LaterlaterMD]

Or that they are more or less indifferent to, preferring (for obvious heuristic or otherwise reasons) the typically packaged clinches, platitudes and traditional pieties that pass as "rational discourse", all in the duration of 5-8 minutes and between two commercial.

Of course, thats not to say such is the case, however, of everyone without qualifications. Its a sweeping generalization, and as such, simply not true. Chomsky not being the exclusive case.

At least thats what id infer

[CIPPALA]

Chomsky change USA!!!!!!!!Please the world ask you

[IntelligentHoodlum]

to CIPPALA: "Hitler change Germany! The Aryan race asks you." This is more post WWI logic of having a dictator sort out our problems, rather than we the people ourselves doing it.

[CIPPALA]

USA must change your economic, no global, no neolberism...Adam Smith and Lippman it was Sucker man.

[gerauddeville]

What debate is this when we see Frits Bolkestein (the famous former EU Commissioner) reading his attacks from a prepared attack-speech?

This is one of the most ridiculous debates I have ever seen - and I'm sure Bolkestein cringes today when he recalls the event. He came out like a stalinist dictator in a totalitarian society.

[IntelligentHoodlum]

Or more appropriately, a Dutch commissar!

[myapari]

Bolkestein had no argument whatsoever other than attacking Chomsky... I guess he found out he had no point and hurriedly left with a stupid excuse supposed to give people the idea he had something more important to do. For his sake, I certainly hope so, but what a horrible debater! Chomsky rules!!!

[mose3]

"[Chomsky] continues to challenge our assumptions long after other critics have gone to bed. He has become the foremost gadfly of our national conscience."

--Christopher Lehmann-Haupt, New York Times Book Review

"One of the West's most influential intellectuals in the cause of peace."

The Independent

"Arguably the most important intellectual alive."

--The New York Times

[g587802]

Chomsky 1 - Bolkestein 0

Go Chomsky - Bolkestein had no logical arguements that held up. I love it when he points out the straw man and then attacks Chomsky personally ignoring his arguements, another logical falicy.

[uninoculated]

Noam Chomsky is the most articulate and smartest man in the world, maybe ever. I wish I had just 10% of Chomsky's brain power. The man posseses inexhaustible genius. 100 years from now, if the human race is still around, people will say, "I wish I was alive in the time of Noam Chomsky." I declare December 7th an international holiday - Noam Chomsky day.

[TheOtherView]

He is a genius, but not the smartest man ever!

[AntonBatey]

Read the text of the debate. This one was edited. Chomsky definitely "won".

[Aistulf]

De eeuwige jood Bolkenstein weer eens bezig, het lef dat hij heeft namens wie dan ook - in Europa - te spreken. Die gore jid!

[croscream]

@Aistulf

Chomsky is de Jood, maar goed: Dat is net zoals Marokkanen die Wilders voor Jood en Nazi uitschelden. Heft heeft geen ander doel dan mensen te pijnigen.

[khayyam847]

urthogie, one is allowed to have the most idiotic points of view, be an imbecile and still write things on a keyboard.

The truth is that your point of view is merely your point of view, not being able to be factual supported. So, you merelly attack Chomsky.

So, you are either: an idiot, and still you have a right to express yourself. Or an agent provocateur (and therefore idiot)

[urthogie]

Chomsky lost the debate, in my view. He's an anarchist, trying to make childish rebellious views appear credible.

[edbingey]

Erm...at what point does he try to do that here? He doesn't, you lost and Bolkestein was Chomskyd

[qqleq2]

So, give just one example where he's wrong...

[urthogie]

I'm not interested in an internet argument.

[qqleq2]

LOL. That's a nice way to say you just raised an opinion that is not at all supported by the facts. Don't say something that you cannot justify, and then say you just don't want to. That is what my nine year old does all the time. "I CAN do it, but I don't WANT to." ;-)

[noisecape]

wtf urthogie? Bolkestein literally fled the scene after realising he couldnt pit a single decent arguement against chomsky, who had real evidence (not stuff from newspapers) to backup every word he was saying. winners and losers in this debate are not a matter of 'your view', learn the different between fact and opinion.

[calamaro70]

Chomksy rules!

[chomskyfan11]

I don't know the full context of this debate, but it seems ridiculus today that anyone would dare call the genocide in East Timor a conspiracy theory. Although, Indonesian officials today might regard it as inconvient fact.

[GlobalHuntMan]

Bolkestein was probably, in that statement, referring to Chomsky and Herman's propaganda model, not the genocide in East Timor. Of course, the model, as Chomsky explains at the end of this clip, has nothing to do with the notion of making conspiratorial claims. It only has to do with the conclusions one must necessarily draw when confronted with the fact that a small group of people with interests often opposed to the truth own, and hence control, the media apparatus.

[fusionguitar]

Chomsky is my hero

[spoor12b]

Bolkestein KO! En hij verdwijnt met de staart tussen de benen...

[indoctus41]

Chomsky's theories are iron-clad because he does his homework; he can back them up with facts. All Bolkestein can do is espouse generalities and to me he appears to be intellectually lazy, offering very little in the way of insight.

[rutgerjimmyjayjay]

Goed zo Bolkie! Pak die rooie praatjesmaker aan door al z'n blabla filosofie aan te pakken.

[Leibo07]

Bla bla filosofie : Chomsky is een vd nuchterste denkers, uit de analytische traditie. U moet verschil maken tussen bla bla en het filosoferen over taal...

Rooie praatjesmaker : die doet zich zoveel moeite niet met ellenlange boeken, artikelen, mails, etc. Die had het zich een STUK gemakkelijker gemaakt.

Maar uw partijgenoot Bolkestein heeft vrijwillig een modderfiguur geslagen.

[godjei]

hahahaha gewoon niet nadenken. Stempel rooie praatjesmaker erop en afzeiken. Heb je überhaupt gekeken?