C'est quand même curieux, tous ces anglophones qui rouspètent sur le latin, en souhaitant une prononciation uniforme. L'anglais est pourtant une langue dont la prononciation varie à l'infini, ce qui contribue d'ailleurs à son charme.
I don't want anyone to think I'm putting down the wonderful maestro, orchestra, singers, and choir who are doing a SUPERB job in this marvelous performance. There are pronunciation problems with other languages also, such as English (vowels!, particularly in England) and Castilian Spanish (with the "theta"). I heard the English pronounce "Vyvatt Elizabetha Regyna" at the Queen's coronation! The Roman pronunication universally would be a welcome uniforming act. This is historical, however.
Excellent singers and musicians.! But I also would wish there would be uniformity everywhere on Ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation in the Roman style, that is Italian style, since Rome is the center of Latin Rite usage. Here it seems that the first (very good) singer is saying "Te Deum laudabis" instead of "laudamus". Laudabis means "you praise" instead of "we praise". "Sanctus" sounds like "sanctis". "Tibi omnes angeli" sounds like "Sibi omnes angeli" (The angels praise themselves).
Forse la pronuncia italiana è quella che più si avvicina al latino, dato che la nostra lingua ne è la diretta conseguenza ed è stato parlato parallelamente al diffondersi della lingua volgare (che ha dato l'avvio all'italiano attuale)...
(it must be said though that he is a wonderful high tenor as only England seems to be able to produce -in large quantities at least and not looking physionomically like a 'tenor' at all, rather like a bass. Weird... but wonderful)
@sists43 I also have a hard time listening to latin with the french accent.....it really twists my guts!!!!I can't stand hearing "Te deom" instead of " te deum" or even worse the pronouciation of "laudamus....I'm italian and I think that the fact that charpentier was a pupil of giacomo carissimi in rome for a decade should be considered....
I prefer the german accent for latin....if you ever listen to german choirs even when they perform Isaak or Shutz the don't change the words completly....
What you say makes sense, but is not wholly true...
1. Germanic Latin is not 100% "standard" Latin either (e.g. Mozart's Requiem - "quoniam" prounounced "kvoniam")
2. Although Charpentier did study with Carissimi for 3 years, he was obviously French and his musicians were Parisian. It is likely that they sung in Franco-Latin.
@MaybeDave The german pronounce Kvoniam because it is difficult for them to pronounce the uo... like the japaneese can't pronounce correctly the R. the germans also say agnus dei marking the g .... us italians we are funny when we try to speak in english...how many jokes are their about us!!!!!but the french way of singing in latin is totally different...far far away from any kind of pronounciation...sometimes i think they do it on porpose just to show how french they are.
@918790 No, that is not fair to the French. They pronounce it according to the French traditional pronunciation, although I also prefer the Roman way for all, as far as possible. (Try the English "r").
All this argument re Latin pronunciation is silly. Of course different countries pronounce Latin different.ly .I personally love that variation and how differnent modern languages interpret Latin- and I think that Latin in French is absoultely beautiful - just as is Latin in English, or Spanish or German, or for all I know Chinese is beautiful - just different.
@sists43 : in facts, they use the french pronunciation of the latin that was used at Charpentier's time, and still in traditionnal latin masses in France.
@donhenri01 Actually, since the papacy of Pope Pius X, who promoted Gregorian chant (see the motu proprio "Tra le sollecitudini") according to the method devised by the monks of Solesmes, the liturgical pronunciation of Latin in France has largely been "more Romano", without, however, the alveolar trill (its use by the choir of Notre-Dame de Paris being quite exceptional).
@donhenri01 Sorry this is not true. This pronounciation is very different from the pronounciation commonly used in traditional latin masses in France. I think latin is pronounced here the way it was at the baroque's time. I have never seen in any french traditional mass any sanctus pronounced with the french "u" like the singers do here.
@SimplyDavid42 : Well I probably know it better than you, because I attend a latin Mass in Paris once a week... ;)
But it is true that Priest celebrating in Latin tend to use more and more the italian pronunciation. Mine is probably one of the last defenders of the classical French pronunciation.
@donhenri01 et moi aussi je connais le latin plutôt pas mal, en cérémoniaire de cathédrale, et relativement proche de la frat St Pie X. Et j'ai jamais entendu aucun abbé français, diocésain ou non, prononcer ainsi le latin à la française comme ce devait être le cas du temps de l'âge d'or du gallicanisme. J'avoue que d'ailleurs je n'en vois pas l'intérêt, mais puisque vous dites que cela existe, je veux bien vous croire.
@SimplyDavid42 Le latin prononcé à la française, cela existe encore, notamment à la FSSP (les eleison avec le "on" comme dans "mouton" de tel Abbé) et chez les vieux prêtres qui n'ont jamais cessé de célébrer la Messe de leur ordination, avant en se cachant, maintenant au grand jour.
C'est quand même curieux, tous ces anglophones qui rouspètent sur le latin, en souhaitant une prononciation uniforme. L'anglais est pourtant une langue dont la prononciation varie à l'infini, ce qui contribue d'ailleurs à son charme.
lclmr8 2 months ago
Nul !
The31Look 2 months ago
I don't want anyone to think I'm putting down the wonderful maestro, orchestra, singers, and choir who are doing a SUPERB job in this marvelous performance. There are pronunciation problems with other languages also, such as English (vowels!, particularly in England) and Castilian Spanish (with the "theta"). I heard the English pronounce "Vyvatt Elizabetha Regyna" at the Queen's coronation! The Roman pronunication universally would be a welcome uniforming act. This is historical, however.
FRAGIORGIO1 2 months ago
Excellent singers and musicians.! But I also would wish there would be uniformity everywhere on Ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation in the Roman style, that is Italian style, since Rome is the center of Latin Rite usage. Here it seems that the first (very good) singer is saying "Te Deum laudabis" instead of "laudamus". Laudabis means "you praise" instead of "we praise". "Sanctus" sounds like "sanctis". "Tibi omnes angeli" sounds like "Sibi omnes angeli" (The angels praise themselves).
FRAGIORGIO1 2 months ago
Beautiful! Glory to God and blessing and gratitude for music performers.
franciszek8D 2 months ago
I am in love with the tenor. *-*
sue200012 7 months ago
@sue200012 Im in love with the violinist. :)
PiroozAzDirooz 3 months ago
Forse la pronuncia italiana è quella che più si avvicina al latino, dato che la nostra lingua ne è la diretta conseguenza ed è stato parlato parallelamente al diffondersi della lingua volgare (che ha dato l'avvio all'italiano attuale)...
:)
piedoneVI 8 months ago
I am in love with the first dessus
amatorynumber 10 months ago
@amatorynumber Not the violinist? ;)
molealto 8 months ago
(it must be said though that he is a wonderful high tenor as only England seems to be able to produce -in large quantities at least and not looking physionomically like a 'tenor' at all, rather like a bass. Weird... but wonderful)
amatorynumber 10 months ago
wonderful quartet, but could you please shut up a bit, mr haute-contre? I can't hear the second dessus at all and barely the first :-)
amatorynumber 10 months ago
@sists43 I also have a hard time listening to latin with the french accent.....it really twists my guts!!!!I can't stand hearing "Te deom" instead of " te deum" or even worse the pronouciation of "laudamus....I'm italian and I think that the fact that charpentier was a pupil of giacomo carissimi in rome for a decade should be considered....
I prefer the german accent for latin....if you ever listen to german choirs even when they perform Isaak or Shutz the don't change the words completly....
918790 11 months ago
What you say makes sense, but is not wholly true...
1. Germanic Latin is not 100% "standard" Latin either (e.g. Mozart's Requiem - "quoniam" prounounced "kvoniam")
2. Although Charpentier did study with Carissimi for 3 years, he was obviously French and his musicians were Parisian. It is likely that they sung in Franco-Latin.
MaybeDave 10 months ago
@MaybeDave The german pronounce Kvoniam because it is difficult for them to pronounce the uo... like the japaneese can't pronounce correctly the R. the germans also say agnus dei marking the g .... us italians we are funny when we try to speak in english...how many jokes are their about us!!!!!but the french way of singing in latin is totally different...far far away from any kind of pronounciation...sometimes i think they do it on porpose just to show how french they are.
918790 10 months ago 2
@918790 No, that is not fair to the French. They pronounce it according to the French traditional pronunciation, although I also prefer the Roman way for all, as far as possible. (Try the English "r").
FRAGIORGIO1 2 months ago
C'est beau!
MrAndrePBC 11 months ago
beautiful! good videography, as well. Great post! thank-you.
keebearfull 1 year ago
Are you all professionals? This is definitely a new favorite piece. Does your church teach the whole truth?
Dan Beane
danbeane 1 year ago
All this argument re Latin pronunciation is silly. Of course different countries pronounce Latin different.ly .I personally love that variation and how differnent modern languages interpret Latin- and I think that Latin in French is absoultely beautiful - just as is Latin in English, or Spanish or German, or for all I know Chinese is beautiful - just different.
Anjoucat 1 year ago 9
@sists43 : in facts, they use the french pronunciation of the latin that was used at Charpentier's time, and still in traditionnal latin masses in France.
donhenri01 1 year ago 11
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GrumpyOldTroll 1 year ago
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@donhenri01 Actually, since the papacy of Pope Pius X, who promoted Gregorian chant (see the motu proprio "Tra le sollecitudini") according to the method devised by the monks of Solesmes, the liturgical pronunciation of Latin in France has largely been "more Romano", without, however, the alveolar trill (its use by the choir of Notre-Dame de Paris being quite exceptional).
GrumpyOldTroll 1 year ago 5
@donhenri01 Sorry this is not true. This pronounciation is very different from the pronounciation commonly used in traditional latin masses in France. I think latin is pronounced here the way it was at the baroque's time. I have never seen in any french traditional mass any sanctus pronounced with the french "u" like the singers do here.
SimplyDavid42 10 months ago
@SimplyDavid42 : Well I probably know it better than you, because I attend a latin Mass in Paris once a week... ;)
But it is true that Priest celebrating in Latin tend to use more and more the italian pronunciation. Mine is probably one of the last defenders of the classical French pronunciation.
donhenri01 10 months ago
@donhenri01 et moi aussi je connais le latin plutôt pas mal, en cérémoniaire de cathédrale, et relativement proche de la frat St Pie X. Et j'ai jamais entendu aucun abbé français, diocésain ou non, prononcer ainsi le latin à la française comme ce devait être le cas du temps de l'âge d'or du gallicanisme. J'avoue que d'ailleurs je n'en vois pas l'intérêt, mais puisque vous dites que cela existe, je veux bien vous croire.
SimplyDavid42 10 months ago
@SimplyDavid42 Le latin prononcé à la française, cela existe encore, notamment à la FSSP (les eleison avec le "on" comme dans "mouton" de tel Abbé) et chez les vieux prêtres qui n'ont jamais cessé de célébrer la Messe de leur ordination, avant en se cachant, maintenant au grand jour.
+ PAX ET BONUM
donhenri01 10 months ago 2
@donhenri01 Pace e Bene, fratello francescano.
FRAGIORGIO1 2 months ago
@sists43 plz try to get some culture you stupid before writing nonsense
Kalterthewriter 1 year ago