Checkers opening moves and the best counter moves

[Jenkins1155]

lol the general public is dumb for always using that opening move lets all lol at the general public!!!

[rollexx]

FML....i've been doing the worst possible move my entire life............

[animalnt]

checkers hahaha

[olivernavarros]

lol wtf that's all the moves possible...best move my ass

[obaidCarkey]

best move????

thats all the moves possible!

[mrvsg1]

your so wrong ! i allways start with the move you sed the worst ! and normaly i allways win against my friends . im very good at it..

[skyjuiceification]

@mrvsg1

ur more than likely playing against players who are not very good. because that is the worst move to open a game with. going to the center is the strongest.literally and psychologically. u are playing novices.

[mrvsg1]

@skyjuiceification if i play 40 games i normaly win 32 so.. anyway everyone got his own way right..

[crabbit87]

Why? How?

[Zenthel76]

Ah yes, I forgot. Chess must be more complex or something.

[asherasator]

@Zenthel76 It's a myth Chess is more complex. Math from chess.com: opening move positions #1-10 has 40 x 10^6. Mid game #11-16 has 45 x 10^6. Mid game #16-20 has 40 x 10^6. End game #21-30 or more has 5 x 10^6.

According to Jonathon Schaeffer a chess master who programmed Chinook, checkers has total 5 x 10^20 positions [quintillions], 10^18 reachable under regular rules. A program penetrates these levels better than humans, chess programs are still beat by GrandMasters.

[Intiom]

@asherasator It is not a myth, you have cherry-picked numbers and presented 'possible positions' as the only measure of complexity.

You need to compare the game-tree complexity AND the state-space complexity. Chess is considerably more complex.

"A program penetrates these levels better than humans, chess programs are still beat by GrandMasters. "

Umm, what? You've just made a point against yourself. Checkers has been calculated out (look up Professor Jonathan Schaeffer). Chess hasn't.

[asherasator]

@Intiom Do you understand chess? Those numbers were from chess.com & mathematically legitimate, It peaks at complexity in moves at #11-16 in the hundreds of millions Checkers from Schaeffer himself a chess master: Checkers is 5 x 10^20 [other rule variations] & with regular rules 10^18, you get that? Those are huge numbers Quintillions. CHESS IS SOLVED, PLAYED PERFECT IT IS A DRAW & HAPPENS ALL TIME, humans can access into the hundred millions range, Quintillions only computers can go there.

[Zenthel76]

@asherasator So, you're saying, that if played perfect on both sides then on checkers, it won't be a draw? Remember, we're using the word perfect here. Draws in Checkers happen. I'm not completely sure what your point is, to be quite honest. Am I saying that checkers is not complicated? Hell no, that would just be stupid. However, I am saying that Chess is more complicated. Different pieces move in different ways. There are 6 different pieces that move in different ways.

[asherasator]

@Zenthel76 If you're playing Chinook it will go deeper than you, so playing perfect against it is something quite special. Against a human is another story, humans aren't perfect & even with inaccurate play can get draws in both chess & checkers, but there are points in both games where it can become a no mans land & theory is sidelined, & "perfect play" in these regions & depths means playing well against the "evolving" positions, that's how Kasparov imbalanced his opponents in chess.

[asherasator]

@Zenthel76 It is assumed bcus chess has more pieces & they move different ways is more technical & complex, it isn't. It's nothing more than a myth & benefits the chess world. Terminology for chess as "unsolved" isn't correct, the potential of legitimate combinations & positions as pieces are eliminated has a much lower ceiling than Checkers, that's why many GMs can beat programs, chess by it's rules has limitations & accessible to humans at those depths, checkers ceiling is higher & specialized

[asherasator]

@Zenthel76 Especially original Checkers "Jeu Plaisant" from France with option to jump or not, takes the game to levels of the gods into extreme Quintillion range & cannot be solved & is absolutely way beyond chess. Creativity & human error keep it fresh & open through the evolving positions & keep chances for both sides through many aspects of the game. Checkers is King of the classical board games, that's why there's a crown on the pieces of sets from most stores :)

[asherasator]

@Zenthel76 In chess per side there is one K, Q, 8 Pawns, & 2 of the other pieces. In Checkers 12 pieces that are the same until they reach the end of the board & get a Superpower. Precisely because they're the same the exponentiation rises to higher levels, that's what most don't get & assume purely on "more pieces with different abilities make it deeper", no that actually means more limitations in combinations & limited scope & as the pieces are removed especially after move #21 in chess.

[asherasator]

@Intiom It doesn't matter what the computer can do [solve it], it's what the human can do to the depths of it, that's why Chinook has less contenders than top chess programs. At best a human can hope to draw Chinook & some may beat it once in a while. Chess programs are beaten more because Grandmasters can go into the hundred millions & more rigid 50,000,000 range of end games after moves #21-30. For the human Checkers is more complex & a higher climb of positional depths.

[Zenthel76]

@asherasator You're talking about how human beings are not perfect. I agree completely. We are in no way perfect. However, Chess computers can play perfect, thus why grand masters are losing to computers now. You seem to think that grand masters beat computers still. You are wrong. The best computers beat grandmasters, and grandmasters usually do not draw with computers. Because as stated, computers do perfect play, while grandmasters, while they are grand, do not. They are human.

[asherasator]

@Zenthel76 I know GMs get beat, I play Houdini all the time & it's incredibly strong, but I did beat Rybka 2.2 last week & a few others through out the years. Some of the top chess GMs draw once in awhile & also win. Chinook on the other hand a long time ago was clearly superior to humans in Checkers back in 1989 & that is because of the depths of the game. I play & enjoy both games.

[AceofDlamonds]

The general public........lmfao....

[Zenthel76]

wah- wait, isn't this just like someone going through chess and saying just the move e4 is the best opening? and that e4 in itself is an opening, when e4 usually goes into an opening?

[azcheckers]

@Zenthel76 Yes, it would be like that, but this is checkers, not chess.

[Zenthel76]

wah- wait, isn't this just like someone going through chess and saying just the move e4 is the best opening?

[Kamen1]

thanks to this vid, i have more draws than losses ^_^

[TheGrass67]

I use the last move almost every time i play and i still win

[dreweeks]

Good to know I've been doing the worst move as my opener. :)

[shanaje103]

@OprVer: I do believe I read that it the game was "SOLVED" which theoretically means that all possible moves were made and the game should be a draw if no mistakes are made. This may only apply to "Standard Checkers" one variant of the game though. Not in Pool Checkers (pieces are allowed to capture forward or backward and Kings can move more than one space)

[azcheckers]

@shanaje103 That's right, Chinook solved the GAYP version of this game. All I am showing in this video is theoretical best replies to each of the seven different initial opening moves. Of course, when humans play each other, there are always mistakes.

[5tonyvvvv]

@shanaje103 So then its really not solved then?

[5tonyvvvv]

@shanaje103 on the wiki game tree complexity chart, it says fanorona and nine men morris is more complex?

[DelCristo41]

No your wrong I'm sorry....The best move for red is who gives a shit.

[OprVer]

isnt checkers played on a 10x10 board though?

[azcheckers]

@OprVer In different places in the world, checkers is played on a 10x10 board. But in America and other English speaking nations, it is played on an 8x8 board.

[OprVer]

@azcheckers Ok, and there was something else I was wondering about. In chess, opening theory nowadays goes up till like move 28. Since there are less possibillities in checkers, hasn't the whole game been theorized to death?? I mean isn't the game thought out entirely?

[azcheckers]

@OprVer While checkers isn't as deep as chess, it certainly is not an easy or simple game by any means. The number of theoretical moves in checkers are beyond what a human could ever comprehend. There are some general principles and theories, none of which have been exhausted, even after all this time checkers has been around (since 3000 BC, making it much, much older than chess).

[MikeDunn]

@azcheckers I had the same question, myself. Great explanation. Did you go to Arizona State?

[azcheckers]

@MikeDunn Thanks, and yes, I did attend ASU.

[ty99999returns]

when is ur next video?

[omer8836]

dont white always starts....

[azcheckers]

@omer8836 Not in American/English checkers.

[Connen1]

@omer8836 Most types checkers always start when darker colour, usually red or black. I'm not sure what kind of checkers white move first, but it is definitely chess game for white to move first. :p I'm a weak grandmaster in checkers, advanced in chess, intermediate in go and beginner in backgammon.

[APolaris]

Our of curiosity, was it ever proven 24-19 was stronger against 10-14 than 22-18? Liking the Bristol Cross though.

22-17 against 11-15 seems good for one reason only: fewer people have studied it than the others.

With red, I like 9-14 more than 11-15 actually, since it results in more red wins/has more traps. 11-15 seems to almost always draw against a decent player. That's why I play 22-17 against it - it often forces the other person into 11-15 openings like the Fife or Souter.

[azcheckers]

@APolaris Yes, 24-19 is theoretically the strongest reply to 10-14. 22-17 is also theoretically the strongest reply to 11-15. Tinsley and Fortman discussed this in a past ACF Bulletin which I can't find at the moment. In Go-As-You-Please tournaments, you'll find most players will play 11-15, since it is theoretically the strongest initial move. 9-14 (as used by Richard Hallett in the 2003 NT.) can prove to be a worthwhile alternative. You just won't find many people playing it.

[OnlyJustUnknown]

I thought the worst opening was the best because it is impossible to take it out as long as it is located there.

[azcheckers]

@OnlyJustUnknown That's a common misconception. Sure, it won't get captured right away, but it doesn't develop any pieces and allows your opponent to take over the center of the board.

[OnlyJustUnknown]

@azcheckers It's a good thing I watched your video then :) I guess the strategies in checkers is similar to chess.

[azcheckers]

@OnlyJustUnknown That's right. The basic strategy is very similar.

[Zezcez]

I am the general public

[Zezcez]

@Zezcez or at least part of



[lazimofo90]

Dude go deeper in the openings please.

[DelCristo41]

@lazimofo90 your joking right? Im sure this guy is taking the piss

[howincrediblyshit]

@DelCristo41 Sadly, this guy really does love his checkers. Look at his videos...

[azcheckers]

@mnandi984 You may be right for all practical purposes, but from a strictly theoretical standpoint, those are in fact the best responses. I know it may seem strange, but it's the honest to goodness truth. Tinsley and Fortman both discussed in great detail why 22-17 is the best theoretical response to 11-15 in an ACF Bulletin back in the early 1990s.

[stansarproductionz]

Great vid bro! You should make a video on how to win with a disadvantaged ending. E.G: him having 3 kings, and me only 2 but still winning.

Lovely vids tho man, keep 'em comin!