Cost of the ETS

[nickmt]

I count myself very fortunate to have studied some of the pertaining research as part of my degree.

The amount of research carried out in the field of paleoclimatolgy (study of past climate 1,000's of years ago or longer) and climate prediction is vast.

However what I learnt, pales in comparison to those of my professors and others elsewhere.

I can only hope those who feel skeptical or critical of climate change & related issues do their homework first rather than speaking out of ignorance.

[nickmt]

Overall I wish most of the skeptics who have posted comments so far would actually take the time to read the relevant scientific journals before jumping to conclusions based on a few media clips like the one above.

The main criticism put out by yourselves is a believing a media hype. Yet people like Jenny (I hope you don't mind your inclusion here) ahve actually read some of the work conducted by scientific experts - far from the media hype!

[mynah0]

Well done folks. It's about time we heard the true story. The Rudd government are quite happy to sell Australia down the river for a moments political advantage, and what about Prime Minister Rudd being prepared to sign the Copenhagen treaty without even having bothered to read it first? What kind of leadership do we have in Australia? Are they stupid, treacherous, traitorous or all three???

[1965ace]

Snake oil has been sold around the world and I believe the Americans will resist this absolute stupidity , phony science and corrupt politicians. When are the real scientists going to be heard from?? Morons like Al Gore are paraded out to promote this bucket of crap, while he is getting filthy rich from it.

[JennyFarlopez]

Yeah, everything is a conspiracy!

Don't listen to the millions of "phony" scientists!

Listen to the very few who are being paid by the oil companies!

[allegoryh]

Yeah because the environMENTAL scientists do it free, they get no financial benefits from their alarmist claims. Just because 99% of funding comes from the government their motives must be pure. Whose pockets are getting lined by the billion dollar "research" grants?

[JennyFarlopez]

Sure, it's a vast conspiracy involving every single nation in the world, including those which benefit more from oil, and scientists from all the political spectrum, with the only purpose of destroying the oil companies.

You see, it's all part of the same plan. 9/11 was an inside job, the moonlanding was a hoax and evolution is a conspiracy, too.

[mynah0]

Wow. Your naivety can only be described as breathtaking! Resorting to the old ruse of making outrageously irrelevant comparisons when you can't defend your belief. The Warming debate has become a religion driven by zealots supported by a vocal minority of converts who take on 'faith' whatever their high priests tell them.

They can't substantiate the claims except by resorting to predictions of computer models designed by the same high priests, & what would you expect the models to predict?

[JennyFarlopez]

The debate is done by people who actually know what they're talking about on peer-reviewed papers, not by some amateurs who read some crap here and there and feel they're entitled to contradict the experts and "teach" other ignorant people on the internet.

Science is not democracy. Not everybody is meant to understand the theories, models or predictions. Not every fool's opinion on a subject is equally valid to those given by the experts.

[mynah0]

Thank you for giving us your opinion:o)

I guess that by your own definition that makes you a... :o)

Also, you need to listen to the prognostications of scientists from both sides, rather than simply clinging with religious fervour to the ramblings of the mass media hype. Oh, unless any science that disagrees with your adopted position is simply foolishness. Even the once fiercely supportive David Bellamy now recants his prior support for the G/W theory and declares it to be "anti-science".

[JennyFarlopez]

It's pretty funny the utter idyosincratic language you use to describe those who opose your oppinion. You know, words like "religion", "worship", etc.

Makes you seem mental.

[JennyFarlopez]

"I guess that by your own definition that makes you a... :o)"

No. I am only listening to the experts.

What is your expertise in the field of climatology to contradict the scientific consensus whithout providing a single solid proof?

Do you think mocking everyone else is a substitute for an argument? It makes you seem like if you're rather trying to convince yourself.

[Niobium2000]

"scientific consensus"

Science doesn't work by consensus.

[JennyFarlopez]

Yes, it does.

When enough evidence is gathered for something, the conclusions are pretty obvious for everybody (in the field).

[Niobium2000]

sure...just like the consensus on Ptolemaic astronomy.

[1965ace]

Hey in all your vast studies did you happen to hear it's cooling now???? Also in the past few days hundreds of e-mails from the top IPCC scientists that were hacked show the absolute fraud so your "experts" were just experts at cooking the books . HA HA HA the truth is coming out finaly.

[mynah0]

You are a most amusing lady Jenny, with an amusing propensity for sending yourself up. You mocked those who expressed an opinion, made various claims and then attempted to seriously back them up with quotes from wikipedia, surely a flawless source of factual knowledge - not :o)

I'm an engineer, well versed and trained in applying established rules to careful measurements and observations to arrive at valid outcomes. Not grabbing a wild theory and shouting loudly to discourage dissension

[JennyFarlopez]

First of all, I'm a dude.

Second, I am a PhD in theoretical chemistry. Trained in using my brains to make useful, predicting models of reality starting from previous scientific theories and using computer grids to solve those problems.

The difference between you and me, apart from the physico-mathematical background, is that I don't hold dissenting oppinions on subjects that lie outside of my area of expertise.

[mynah0]

Sorry Jenny to have been misled by your name into thinking you to be a woman.

Seriously though, by your own definitions already stated, you're no better qualified than I to comment and present your opinion, as theoretical chemistry is even less directly related to environmental science than engineering is. You apparently have little concept of what engineering design and development entails. Your description of your own training is a pretty good definition of engineering as well

Goodbye :o)

[JennyFarlopez]

Theoretical chemistry is my specialization. I studied 4 years of general chemistry before, including atmospheric chemistry, advanced thermodynamics, spectroscopy, etc.

What I'm trying to explain is that even so, I have no basis to express an informed opinion compared to the real experts on the field.

So in that case it's preferable to listen to the scientific consensus insatead of inventing your iwn crazy theories or listenins to a few dissidents without even knowing the basics of climatology.

[Niobium2000]

@JennyFarlopez

You mean like the statisticians who exposed the hockey stick fraud?

[mynah0]

Actually it's more like a few thousand of those "phoney scientists" (your description) that support the theory of Anthropogenic Global Warming. There are far more scientists who are debunking it than supporting it, and finally they are beginning to be heard!

[JennyFarlopez]

Give me your sources or STFU. From wikipedia article "Scientific opinion on climate change":

"Since 2007, no scientific body of national or international standing has maintained a dissenting opinion."

Most of them have been defending antropogenic climate change for decades.

[mynah0]

You are obviously unaware that a significant number of those scientists whose opinions you worship wre stating in the mid 70's that we were all going to freeze as a result of anthropogenic global COOLING - they were tring to convince us that dust in the air as a result of human activity was going to drop the temperature by 2 or 3 degrees and trigger an ice age.

Seems the complete contradiction in their espoused views today means nothing. As I said, it's religion, not science :o)

[nickmt]

mynah if you actually read the scientific literature, you'll find that the main source of all the hype at the time was due to research into the ice cores of antarctica which indicated a possibility of entering another ice age.

Now if we are not experiencing significant cooling, but rather an overall trend that is more warming, what does that tell you about the anthropogenic effects?

Put simply we may be oppsoing a natural ice age cycle due to anthropogenic greenhouse emissions.

[mynah0]

Actually, I not only read a wide range of it, I actually understand it.

Consequently, I am convinced that there is no actual evidence for the global warming theory. We are still, in fact, heading for an ice age, that's why global temperatures continue to FALL - NOT RISE as many Russian Scientists have been trying to say for 3 decades now.

They are courageous enough not to follow the western hysteria and cook the books to get desired outcomes for funding rewards from their government :o)

[1965ace]

No just listen to the ones paid by the government to promote this myth. Hey Jenny why are they calling it climate change now?????

[nickmt]

Hear hear!

Remember there are more benefits for oil companies and those politicians who are aligned with them to not spend money on ETS or other schemes designed to safeguard Australia's future.

They won't be around to help you as they contribute to worsening the increasingly drier conditions in Australia. Let alone the changes globally.

[Niobium2000]

@JennyFarlopez

Appeals to authority and ad hominum attacks are a weak form of argument.

[nickmt]

Haha! Dude you're hilarious.

'Morons' like Al Gore need to earn a living like everyone else. It has only been 3 years since the inconvenient truth hit in 2006.

And as for 'phony science and corrupt politicians' ... open your eyes and look back a little!

Weapons maufacturers, pharmaceutical companies and petrochemical corporations have been doing this for ages!

However, apparently no problem with these companies and politicians in leaugue with them getting filthy rich all these decades.

[1965ace]

I'm against any fraud but the rate that gov is pissing away money now makes corporate fraud look like amateurs.

[marineninga]

WOAH! great presentation!