King Henry was a psycho/neurotic idiot even if he was smart and powerful. Most of these woman could not properly conceive probably because of his infidelity. If a man leaves a woman for you, you can be sure you stand to be the next in line to be left by him. She was to young/naive and thought she could change him. He is soo ugly in my eyes even with his power, money and intelligence(cant say looks because he looked like a toad).
Yeah they should have started from the beginning and gotten an actress who actually looked like Catherine, actually Maria should have worn a wig because she is an amazing Catherine!
i feel bad for Catherine most,because she didnt do anything wrong she didnt want Mary to be a bastard,so she wouldnt go through with the divorce but henry got a divorce as we all no.I fell bad for Anne too,because she never got to be the memerable mother figure that Catherine got to be,poor Elizabeth barley could remeber her mother.
Elizabeth blocked Anne out of her memory as a defence mechanism. She later was able to recall things and I think even reinstated her mother's title as queen (I'm not 100% sure on that one though) so obviously she made a good enough impression on the toddler, even if she was insanely young ^_^
I feel bad for Catherine in some ways, but she was more worried about titles then her daughter in general is what it seemed to me with all Mary's health issues. And that just... bugs me.
She was NOT more worried about her title than Mary! Mary also didnt reliquish her title. Thye both stood true to their faith and rights rather than see eachother, which is terribly sad, but they both understood eachother that they HAD to do this. If she had reliquished her title this would have been the worst thing she could have done for Mary, she loved Mary deeply,
Mary knew that she reinstated her as Queen and it was her dying wish to be buried with her - Elizabeth sadly didnt let this happen, which is very sad as they were not allowed to be together in death or in life.
I love this video, the truth is that Katherine gives me grief, but I love the relationship between Henry and Anne Boleyn jeje. Hey a question. What song is it? I would love to have it on my computer.
Katherine annoys me greatly so I can understand. Jane Seymour is sadly coming on the scene soon and I think I'll end up not watching her she annoys me so much. But yes. It's Between by Vienna Teng.
I assume you're not meaning a direct descendant seeing as she has none, but all the same. In my personal opinion I think Katherine was a complete fool. Even if I were related to her in any way, I would still think this. Anyone could see that Henry was going to leave her no matter what she did and her persistence to stay with him in what I believe was a way to simply preserve face and character becomes heavily annoying to me all the time. In the show and in real life.
Damn character limit. Anyway - on top of that, the fact that she lied about being a virgin (and yes, it's historically accurate now that she was in fact lying about her marriage with Arthur never being consummated) just to attempt to make a marriage that was falling apart stay together was also very off putting. Her refusal to give up the crown jewels, teaching Mary to automatically hate and disrespect Anne when she didn't even know her that well... It just seems like bull to me.
Kat was a Princess of Spain No one wanted to beleive Henry would risk war with Spain & the Church to supplant her She went through 7 years of poverty & neglect under Henrys father She endured so much to become Queen She wasnt going to be discarded as an incestuous whore make her child a bastard & hand her title to some French wannabe upstart The title was hers The Jewels were hers Henry was hers she had every right to fight to the death for it
I suspect she lied but it was a noble lie & I dont blame her for telling it Some say she should have surrendered if only to protect the Catholic Church & prevent the reformation but Im not sure Kat told Mary to endure Anne silently & obey her father in all things Mary was a teen who was losing her parents her Legitimacy & her title Kat didnt need to teach Mary to hate Anne though Henry treated her worse than Anne did even after Anne died
The title was only hers because Henry's father didn't want to lose Katherine's wealth that came from her marriage to his son Arthur. By all Catholic aspects which were practically the law back then, her marrying him given the actual consummation of their marriage was completely wrong and thus caused the entire thing to be a sham - even if she wouldn't admit it. Because she lied, because she slept with Arthur, and even because Henry stopped loving her, the title stopped being hers
if it was ever hers to begin with considering. And even if it wasn't, my biggest issue with her was how she treated EVERYONE else. She was rather cold hearted, even before Anne, and she always made it seem like it was the fault of the women that Henry slept with for him cheating rather then his. She was bitter, for good reason I suppose, but she had no right to take it out on everyone else.
I personally think she was uptight, arrogant, and a complete fool. My opinion won't change.
Beleive what you want but it wasnt Kat who vented her rage at Henrys many mistresses Kat upbraided HENRY once for an affair Saw that it was pointless & bore the rest with quiet dignity Anne almost Amputated her hand ripping a necklace from Jane Seymours neck Henrys lust & need for a son made the marriage a sham Kats 1st marriage was just a lame excuse for a catalyst That lust & need grew til it made Annes marriage a sham & went on to take yet another life
Beleive what you want but it wasnt Kat who vented her rage at Henrys many mistresses Kat upbraided HENRY once for an affair Saw that it was pointless & bore the rest with quiet dignity Anne almost Amputated her hand ripping a necklace from Jane Seymours neck Henrys lust & need for a son made the marriage a sham Kats 1st marriage was just a lame excuse for a catalyst That lust & need grew til it made Annes marriage a sham & went on to take yet another life
You cant blame that on Kat She did a lot for England the People loved her Protestants supported her cause when they shouldve been thrilled to see the Pope cast down in england & Anne marriage was also invalid & incestuous by Catholic law b/c Henry had Annes sister Mary She wasnt perfect or a saint & she was prideful but no fool no more than anne anyway
I never said that Anne didn't behave badly or violently towards Henry's mistresses - I am very aware that she often dismissed women for being attractive or what not so Henry wouldn't lust after them. I've never heard anything about her dong anything violent or harmful to others or herself in any book, so I'm not sure where you've heard about it, but I won't question it.
I can blame whatever I want to on Katherine and how she reacts to situation. I didn't like her. I won't like her. So stop?
Hm, well, I find it best to not believe a fact that is only given by one person and not repeated by others. It's often something they heard that was most likely a piece of propaganda and has very little factual basis behind it. Just for future reference. Always try and find multiple sources. At least, that's what I've been taught to do as a history major.
And it's not MISjudging, it's a PERSONAL opinion based on historical fact. You have yours, I have mine. Clearly you care as much as me.
I dont like Wier but I think she mentioned the incident Its just that Anne fans dismiss Kat too easily they rage about how what happened to Anne was such a travesty & she was a hero for standing up for herself & her daughter while what happened to Kat was understandable & she was just a "fool" for not rolling over & played dead for Anne & Henry Like disinheriting Mary & busying herself with a well paid stable boy were really options
It has nothing to do with my love for Anne that causes me to dismiss Katherine so easily. I love Anne and Henry together very much in The Tudors. Historically, I actually think Anne was just as much a fool as Katherine was - she fell for a King who couldn't love. I think she was a fool for not taking Henry's offer for a divorce. She should've realized no matter what it was a lose/lose situation for Elizabeth. Don't stop to think that my hate for Katherine has anything to do with Anne.
Katherine was barren. She was a fool for not realizing that even if Henry hadn't gone for Anne, he would have found ANOTHER girl to leave her for later. She had nothing left to offer. Just like Anne had nothing left to offer Henry when he found Jane. They were all fools for thinking that they could keep Henry.
She should have given Henry what she wanted to spare herself humiliation. Anne should have given Henry what he wanted to spare her life. What do my opinions have to do with my
Did Anne even have the option? Her failure to have a son was the ultimate betrayal to Henry She had to pay with her life & I was refering to fans in general Anne fans say Kat was a boring cow & Kat fans say Anne was a skank whore when niether is the case In the end Henry didnt get a son til after Kat died anyway She knew she couldnt have much time left She wanted to keep Marys title & die with dignity I dont blame her for lying or persevering against Henry Even though it was a lost cause
Anne did have the option. Throughout the entire trial all Henry did was beg her to take a divorce instead - he promised to clear the charges, give her a nice settlement and just banish her from court. But she refused because she, like Katherine, didn't want to make her child a bastard and have her lose the title as heir to the thrown. Not that it mattered since Jane forced him to get rid of her just like Anne forced him to get rid of Mary, but whatever XD
Where did you find the part about Henry offering Anne an out during her trial? I haven't read it before. I know that after she had been tried and sentenced, the execution was delayed so that her marriage could be annulled, but that didn't save her life.
Henry doesn't seem to have ever seen her after she was arrested.
I'd be surprised if Henry genuinely considered allowing a repeat of the Katherine/Anne situation, putting Jane's position as Queen and her child's legitimacy in doubt.
I'm pretty sure that I read it in the book "Mistress Anne" and I recall seeing it in a documentary about her, I just can't recall which one. If I find it again, I'll be sure to link you to it though.
I think that Henry realized he wouldn't have had as much a situation with it with Ann. The Pope probably would have recognized a divorce for them immediately if he'd gone and asked. I just know that Anne put her foot down about it and refused to give him one because of Elizabeth.
But for the Pope to recognize a divorce, Henry would have had to ask for one, acknowledging the Pope's authority. A reconciliation with the Catholic Church would have meant that Henry wouldn't get to keep church revenues.
Anne was also very well thought of among a lot of Protestants. Henry basically moved Heaven and Earth to marry her, changing laws to suit his purposes and to safeguard her as Queen.
I don't think that there would have been an uprising on Anne's behalf but maybe (TBC)
there would have been enough of a risk that she would be seen as Queen by a sizeable minority to be cause for concern.
With Anne alive, however unpopular she had been, there would be some who would have their doubts about whether or not Jane was really Queen, and Jane's children were legitimate. Anne may not have been Queen in the eyes of the Catholic Church, but she was Queen under English law.
With both Anne and Katherine dead, Henry was free to marry (TBC - blasted limit!)
and there would be no contenders to challenge Jane as Queen, or her son as heir.
Killing Anne was a political no-no. May 19th 1536 was aptly described as a day that shook the world in a documentary a few years back and Henry had a lot of trouble finding a fourth wife because of his reputation in Europe; he was seen as having had her unjustly executed.
If there was an easier option - and, given Anne's lack of clout, divorce was possible - surely Henry would have had the sense to take it.
Henry became Catholic again for Jane Seymour though, didn't he? At least, that's what I heard, I could be wrong on that. I know he didn't reconcile with the Pope, but I'm pretty sure that Henry's main concern was if other countries recognized the legitimacy rather then his own - for marriage purposes. If he'd gotten rid of Anne without killing her, France and Spain and the others still would have recognized his marriage to Jane given that they never thought the one to Anne was real - (TBC)
even after Katherine's death since they didn't renew their vows.
I'm almost positive that there was a change for divorce. I remember distinctly finding it in a couple of places. The sources could have been wrong I suppose - but I dunno. I didn't check their sources too heavily because Mistress Anne's author (blanking on the name D: I Suck at names) is usually pretty accurate.
Blah. Now I have to find it again. XD Stupid history.
I know that Henry's marriage to Anne was annulled before she was executed - which, if you think about it, would have made her innocent of the crime for which she was executed; adultery in a queen was treason, but the unmarried Marquess of Pembroke was a different story - but I've never read that she would have lived if she'd agreed.
Joanna Denny writes that she was offered her life if she cooperated but that there was never any intention of following through on the promise even if she agreed.
Yeah, I knew about the annulment too - I remember being like "LMAO WTF" and wanting to kick Henry in the balls for it. Even if he is already dead. It was kind of a shitty thing to do.
I think I remember reading that too. I really can't remember where I heard about the divorce. I'll have to ask my World History professor when I see him next. Or maybe my fiancee will remember. When I get the source, I'll be sure to give it to you.
It really is. If you haven't read Mistress Anne or Great Harry by... Um... Carolly Erickson I think, you should really check them out! She gives a really painting of the time period and makes it read almost more like a novel then a biography.
I think that's why it was annulled - with Anne dead, Henry was free to remarry, but if Jane Seymour didn't have a child, or if she only had daughters, Elizabeth would have been heiress presumptive to the throne.
That's right. Mary had already been declared illegitimate so, even though she was older, she was out of the line of succession.
I've read that with Elizabeth also declared illegitimate, Henry was considering making his illegitimate son heir after Jane Seymour's children, but Fitzroy died not long after Anne.
felt like you were saying that I was only hating on Katherine because I was an Anne fan. Sorry about that. I can understand why Katherine lied - I really can - but I personally still think she was a fool for it, just like Anne was. It's great she died with dignity but she didn't gain anything and she didn't save Mary anything either. If Edward hadn't died, she never would have gotten the thrown at all, and she still ended up divorced...
I dunno. If I'd been them, I'd have said "OKAY!" XD
If Katherine wanted to preserve Mary's title as princess, there were at least two options available to her.
If she retired to a convent, Mary would still have been legitimate and she would have been released from her marriage instead of it being declared invalid.
If she didn't want to enter a convent, then as long as she and Henry admitted that they had been wrong to marry but that they had married in good faith, Mary would still have been legitimate and would still have been a princess.
Yes but to Katherine they would be bastards She thought Anne was a Heretic and whore sent by Satan to destroy Her Henry and the whole of England In her mind the only thing standing between Henry and God's wrath was her (a little prideful on her part) As far as Kat was concerned if Henry wanted a son he would just have to wait until she was dead
There had been a precedent for divorces to be granted when a queen did not provide an heir, and even the Pope was encouraging Katherine to retire to a nunnery - he had the authority to release her from her earthly marriage in order to allow her to become a Bride of Christ.
I sympathize with all three of them.
Katherine would have been raised to believe that it was her duty to tie England to Spain - which the marriage of Mary, heir to the throne, and the Emperor would have achieved.
Henry's concerns about what would happen to England if he didn't have a son were not groundless. If Mary had married Charles and had a son, England would have become part of Spain. There was also the possibility of civil war.
Anne was trapped between a rock and a hard place; I don't think that she thought that Henry would marry her when she refused to be his mistress, but once he called her bluff, backing out would have been easier said than done, especially as the Great Matter progressed.TBC
God's wrath wouldn't have been an issue, nor would Anne's children have been bastards in the eyes of the law or of the Church.
However, chances are that Katherine would have preferred to see her child on the throne rather than Anne's child or any other woman's - human nature, really. It can't have been easy for Katherine to know that her husband wanted to set her aside, but there were options that could have made it easier for all concerned.
She signed her last letter to him Katherine the Queen so I guess not The Pope and the Catholics applied pressure to Kat b/c they thought she was the weakest link in this chain & breaking her would be fastest way to a resolution that would protect Catholic interests in England but she choose to fight & she had every right and reason to I dont blame her at all & Anne knew what she was doing & the risk she was taking when she made a play for the throne Her every move was strategic & calculated
Anne never planned to move for the throne. She planned to keep the King's interests prolonged. There's no proof she went in expecting a marriage - not that I've found, any. I don't know why people assume she did. Yes, she refused to be his mistress at first, but that's because she was attempting to keep his desire for her. Sleeping with him right away wouldn't have done that, now would it?
The david Starkey miniseries doesnt count? Kat was in trouble the minute she hit menopause Henry was already looking for a way out his marriage before he met Anne She didnt want to settle for being a Mistress at all not when she could be queen
I have never liked Starkey, actually. That miniseries has given a lot of points I've NEVER heard anywhere and a lot of what was given felt like it as going off of opinion and propaganda more then fact. But maybe that's just me. As far as I've been able to tell of EVERY biography of Anne I've read, she never PLANNED on being Queen - it started out as a plan to keep Henry's interests in tact for as long as possible. It just went farther then any party expected it to.
Not to mention, after rewatching the miniseries from your comments, I never heard any of the things you claim - I never heard about the almost mutilation of her hand from tearing off Jane's necklace as you claimed. And my fiancee (who rewatched more of it then me) says she never heard that NOR your claim that he said she tried to be Queen first from it. So maybe you're confusing your sources? I do that sometimes given that I have so many D:
In cases where a marriage was made in good faith, which was the case with Henry and Katherine, the children could be considered legitimate, even if it was later annulled - for example, when Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII's marriage was annulled, their daughters were declared legitimate.
Had the pope found in favour of Henry, or had Katherine consented to an annulment, Mary could have continued to be recognized as legitimate.
The cases are diffrent, In Louis and Eleanor's case it was annulled because of the need for a male heir. In Hnery and Catherine's case it would be annulled on the grounds it was INVALID - and if I marriage is invalid ergo it never legally existed the children of that union would be illegitimate
A marriage could not be annulled on the grounds of sonlessness. It might be the *reason* why an annulment was sought, but it wouldn't be the *grounds* for it being granted.
Louis and Eleanor's marriage was annulled on the grounds of consanguinity; they were third cousins once removed or something like that (ironically, almost exactly the same affinity by blood that Henry and Catherine shared), so it provided an official excuse to annul their marriage.
Anyway why did Catherine have any reason to believe Henry in his promise when he had broken every promise he had ever made her? And why shouldn't she have fought for her daughter's rightful claim instead of letting her put behind Anne's children?
Trust me, I didnt't mean direct, but that's not important. She stood against the odds not to make her child a bastard. I respectfully don't think she lied. Seeing the way she was raised a pious Catholic, she wouldn't lie, seeing that I am a pious Catholic myself, I would'nt lie about something like that.
I was raised Catholic and my mother was raised a pious Catholic and I knew lots of people who were in the church so I don't think that her religion had anything to do with it. There's proof she lied, it's in almost half the books I have, so this statement isn't ungrounded. I think all she did was make a fool out of herself. That's my opinion, you don't have to agree.
I finally able to see the first two episodes of Season 2. Which was very good. *g* Such a great video you did. By the way, can I make a request? Could you do a video based on the love story of Henry and Anne from the first two episodes of Season 2?
They were! I'm sad that the third one sounds rushed and terrible, but I haven't seen it yet so I don't knoooow D: But sure! Is there any specific song you'd like it to or preference on genre?
I love all the videos that you do. *g* Um any song you can think of for the video is fine with me. Can the preference be Henry/Anne tender moments before their relationship goes down hill. *lol* Thanks!
Sure! I think that Will You Fall For Me is the closest thing I have to that (and maybe this video, but Katherine shows the strain on it) but I'd be happy to make one that is just filled with fluff.
King Henry was a psycho/neurotic idiot even if he was smart and powerful. Most of these woman could not properly conceive probably because of his infidelity. If a man leaves a woman for you, you can be sure you stand to be the next in line to be left by him. She was to young/naive and thought she could change him. He is soo ugly in my eyes even with his power, money and intelligence(cant say looks because he looked like a toad).
11marylena 1 year ago
Too bad Katherine's gone from the series :(
SpanishDescendent 3 years ago 12
Yeah they should have started from the beginning and gotten an actress who actually looked like Catherine, actually Maria should have worn a wig because she is an amazing Catherine!
katharinethequene 3 years ago
i feel bad for Catherine most,because she didnt do anything wrong she didnt want Mary to be a bastard,so she wouldnt go through with the divorce but henry got a divorce as we all no.I fell bad for Anne too,because she never got to be the memerable mother figure that Catherine got to be,poor Elizabeth barley could remeber her mother.
wanna2h 3 years ago 16
Elizabeth blocked Anne out of her memory as a defence mechanism. She later was able to recall things and I think even reinstated her mother's title as queen (I'm not 100% sure on that one though) so obviously she made a good enough impression on the toddler, even if she was insanely young ^_^
I feel bad for Catherine in some ways, but she was more worried about titles then her daughter in general is what it seemed to me with all Mary's health issues. And that just... bugs me.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
She was NOT more worried about her title than Mary! Mary also didnt reliquish her title. Thye both stood true to their faith and rights rather than see eachother, which is terribly sad, but they both understood eachother that they HAD to do this. If she had reliquished her title this would have been the worst thing she could have done for Mary, she loved Mary deeply,
katharinethequene 3 years ago
Mary knew that she reinstated her as Queen and it was her dying wish to be buried with her - Elizabeth sadly didnt let this happen, which is very sad as they were not allowed to be together in death or in life.
katharinethequene 3 years ago
S..love the vid..Man you were not kidding about the debate....whew!!!~~~~~S
DejaVuSu 3 years ago
ROTF We get carried away :( We're dorks.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
S, No you are not a dork...you are a very intelligent, talented, great guy...now reapeat after me..lol...~~~S
DejaVuSu 3 years ago
lmao Aw, thanks!
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Very good video, I congratulate you. Excuse my bad English.
Use a traducctor. : D
FantasiaProductions 3 years ago
Haha no problem! Thank you so much.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
I love this video, the truth is that Katherine gives me grief, but I love the relationship between Henry and Anne Boleyn jeje. Hey a question. What song is it? I would love to have it on my computer.
FantasiaProductions 3 years ago
Katherine annoys me greatly so I can understand. Jane Seymour is sadly coming on the scene soon and I think I'll end up not watching her she annoys me so much. But yes. It's Between by Vienna Teng.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Not to be mean, but I don't see anything wrong with Catherine. I am her descendant after all.
supergirl011 3 years ago
I assume you're not meaning a direct descendant seeing as she has none, but all the same. In my personal opinion I think Katherine was a complete fool. Even if I were related to her in any way, I would still think this. Anyone could see that Henry was going to leave her no matter what she did and her persistence to stay with him in what I believe was a way to simply preserve face and character becomes heavily annoying to me all the time. In the show and in real life.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Damn character limit. Anyway - on top of that, the fact that she lied about being a virgin (and yes, it's historically accurate now that she was in fact lying about her marriage with Arthur never being consummated) just to attempt to make a marriage that was falling apart stay together was also very off putting. Her refusal to give up the crown jewels, teaching Mary to automatically hate and disrespect Anne when she didn't even know her that well... It just seems like bull to me.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Kat was a Princess of Spain No one wanted to beleive Henry would risk war with Spain & the Church to supplant her She went through 7 years of poverty & neglect under Henrys father She endured so much to become Queen She wasnt going to be discarded as an incestuous whore make her child a bastard & hand her title to some French wannabe upstart The title was hers The Jewels were hers Henry was hers she had every right to fight to the death for it
justlooking213 3 years ago
I suspect she lied but it was a noble lie & I dont blame her for telling it Some say she should have surrendered if only to protect the Catholic Church & prevent the reformation but Im not sure Kat told Mary to endure Anne silently & obey her father in all things Mary was a teen who was losing her parents her Legitimacy & her title Kat didnt need to teach Mary to hate Anne though Henry treated her worse than Anne did even after Anne died
justlooking213 3 years ago
The title was only hers because Henry's father didn't want to lose Katherine's wealth that came from her marriage to his son Arthur. By all Catholic aspects which were practically the law back then, her marrying him given the actual consummation of their marriage was completely wrong and thus caused the entire thing to be a sham - even if she wouldn't admit it. Because she lied, because she slept with Arthur, and even because Henry stopped loving her, the title stopped being hers
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
if it was ever hers to begin with considering. And even if it wasn't, my biggest issue with her was how she treated EVERYONE else. She was rather cold hearted, even before Anne, and she always made it seem like it was the fault of the women that Henry slept with for him cheating rather then his. She was bitter, for good reason I suppose, but she had no right to take it out on everyone else.
I personally think she was uptight, arrogant, and a complete fool. My opinion won't change.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Beleive what you want but it wasnt Kat who vented her rage at Henrys many mistresses Kat upbraided HENRY once for an affair Saw that it was pointless & bore the rest with quiet dignity Anne almost Amputated her hand ripping a necklace from Jane Seymours neck Henrys lust & need for a son made the marriage a sham Kats 1st marriage was just a lame excuse for a catalyst That lust & need grew til it made Annes marriage a sham & went on to take yet another life
justlooking213 3 years ago
Beleive what you want but it wasnt Kat who vented her rage at Henrys many mistresses Kat upbraided HENRY once for an affair Saw that it was pointless & bore the rest with quiet dignity Anne almost Amputated her hand ripping a necklace from Jane Seymours neck Henrys lust & need for a son made the marriage a sham Kats 1st marriage was just a lame excuse for a catalyst That lust & need grew til it made Annes marriage a sham & went on to take yet another life
justlooking213 3 years ago
You cant blame that on Kat She did a lot for England the People loved her Protestants supported her cause when they shouldve been thrilled to see the Pope cast down in england & Anne marriage was also invalid & incestuous by Catholic law b/c Henry had Annes sister Mary She wasnt perfect or a saint & she was prideful but no fool no more than anne anyway
justlooking213 3 years ago
I never said that Anne didn't behave badly or violently towards Henry's mistresses - I am very aware that she often dismissed women for being attractive or what not so Henry wouldn't lust after them. I've never heard anything about her dong anything violent or harmful to others or herself in any book, so I'm not sure where you've heard about it, but I won't question it.
I can blame whatever I want to on Katherine and how she reacts to situation. I didn't like her. I won't like her. So stop?
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Starkey as I recall So keep your misjuding her What do I care!
justlooking213 3 years ago
Hm, well, I find it best to not believe a fact that is only given by one person and not repeated by others. It's often something they heard that was most likely a piece of propaganda and has very little factual basis behind it. Just for future reference. Always try and find multiple sources. At least, that's what I've been taught to do as a history major.
And it's not MISjudging, it's a PERSONAL opinion based on historical fact. You have yours, I have mine. Clearly you care as much as me.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
I dont like Wier but I think she mentioned the incident Its just that Anne fans dismiss Kat too easily they rage about how what happened to Anne was such a travesty & she was a hero for standing up for herself & her daughter while what happened to Kat was understandable & she was just a "fool" for not rolling over & played dead for Anne & Henry Like disinheriting Mary & busying herself with a well paid stable boy were really options
justlooking213 3 years ago
It has nothing to do with my love for Anne that causes me to dismiss Katherine so easily. I love Anne and Henry together very much in The Tudors. Historically, I actually think Anne was just as much a fool as Katherine was - she fell for a King who couldn't love. I think she was a fool for not taking Henry's offer for a divorce. She should've realized no matter what it was a lose/lose situation for Elizabeth. Don't stop to think that my hate for Katherine has anything to do with Anne.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Katherine was barren. She was a fool for not realizing that even if Henry hadn't gone for Anne, he would have found ANOTHER girl to leave her for later. She had nothing left to offer. Just like Anne had nothing left to offer Henry when he found Jane. They were all fools for thinking that they could keep Henry.
She should have given Henry what she wanted to spare herself humiliation. Anne should have given Henry what he wanted to spare her life. What do my opinions have to do with my
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
being a fan of a purely fictionalized version of Anne?
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Did Anne even have the option? Her failure to have a son was the ultimate betrayal to Henry She had to pay with her life & I was refering to fans in general Anne fans say Kat was a boring cow & Kat fans say Anne was a skank whore when niether is the case In the end Henry didnt get a son til after Kat died anyway She knew she couldnt have much time left She wanted to keep Marys title & die with dignity I dont blame her for lying or persevering against Henry Even though it was a lost cause
justlooking213 3 years ago
Anne did have the option. Throughout the entire trial all Henry did was beg her to take a divorce instead - he promised to clear the charges, give her a nice settlement and just banish her from court. But she refused because she, like Katherine, didn't want to make her child a bastard and have her lose the title as heir to the thrown. Not that it mattered since Jane forced him to get rid of her just like Anne forced him to get rid of Mary, but whatever XD
And I get what you mean now. It
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Where did you find the part about Henry offering Anne an out during her trial? I haven't read it before. I know that after she had been tried and sentenced, the execution was delayed so that her marriage could be annulled, but that didn't save her life.
Henry doesn't seem to have ever seen her after she was arrested.
I'd be surprised if Henry genuinely considered allowing a repeat of the Katherine/Anne situation, putting Jane's position as Queen and her child's legitimacy in doubt.
HollyBastat 3 years ago
I'm pretty sure that I read it in the book "Mistress Anne" and I recall seeing it in a documentary about her, I just can't recall which one. If I find it again, I'll be sure to link you to it though.
I think that Henry realized he wouldn't have had as much a situation with it with Ann. The Pope probably would have recognized a divorce for them immediately if he'd gone and asked. I just know that Anne put her foot down about it and refused to give him one because of Elizabeth.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
But for the Pope to recognize a divorce, Henry would have had to ask for one, acknowledging the Pope's authority. A reconciliation with the Catholic Church would have meant that Henry wouldn't get to keep church revenues.
Anne was also very well thought of among a lot of Protestants. Henry basically moved Heaven and Earth to marry her, changing laws to suit his purposes and to safeguard her as Queen.
I don't think that there would have been an uprising on Anne's behalf but maybe (TBC)
HollyBastat 3 years ago
there would have been enough of a risk that she would be seen as Queen by a sizeable minority to be cause for concern.
With Anne alive, however unpopular she had been, there would be some who would have their doubts about whether or not Jane was really Queen, and Jane's children were legitimate. Anne may not have been Queen in the eyes of the Catholic Church, but she was Queen under English law.
With both Anne and Katherine dead, Henry was free to marry (TBC - blasted limit!)
HollyBastat 3 years ago
and there would be no contenders to challenge Jane as Queen, or her son as heir.
Killing Anne was a political no-no. May 19th 1536 was aptly described as a day that shook the world in a documentary a few years back and Henry had a lot of trouble finding a fourth wife because of his reputation in Europe; he was seen as having had her unjustly executed.
If there was an easier option - and, given Anne's lack of clout, divorce was possible - surely Henry would have had the sense to take it.
HollyBastat 3 years ago
Henry became Catholic again for Jane Seymour though, didn't he? At least, that's what I heard, I could be wrong on that. I know he didn't reconcile with the Pope, but I'm pretty sure that Henry's main concern was if other countries recognized the legitimacy rather then his own - for marriage purposes. If he'd gotten rid of Anne without killing her, France and Spain and the others still would have recognized his marriage to Jane given that they never thought the one to Anne was real - (TBC)
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Hnery was always a Catholic, he was NEVER Protestant just a reformer when he wanted an annullment
katharinethequene 3 years ago
even after Katherine's death since they didn't renew their vows.
I'm almost positive that there was a change for divorce. I remember distinctly finding it in a couple of places. The sources could have been wrong I suppose - but I dunno. I didn't check their sources too heavily because Mistress Anne's author (blanking on the name D: I Suck at names) is usually pretty accurate.
Blah. Now I have to find it again. XD Stupid history.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
I know that Henry's marriage to Anne was annulled before she was executed - which, if you think about it, would have made her innocent of the crime for which she was executed; adultery in a queen was treason, but the unmarried Marquess of Pembroke was a different story - but I've never read that she would have lived if she'd agreed.
Joanna Denny writes that she was offered her life if she cooperated but that there was never any intention of following through on the promise even if she agreed.
HollyBastat 3 years ago
Yeah, I knew about the annulment too - I remember being like "LMAO WTF" and wanting to kick Henry in the balls for it. Even if he is already dead. It was kind of a shitty thing to do.
I think I remember reading that too. I really can't remember where I heard about the divorce. I'll have to ask my World History professor when I see him next. Or maybe my fiancee will remember. When I get the source, I'll be sure to give it to you.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Thanks. :-)
It's always interesting to look at the different angles.
HollyBastat 3 years ago 2
It really is. If you haven't read Mistress Anne or Great Harry by... Um... Carolly Erickson I think, you should really check them out! She gives a really painting of the time period and makes it read almost more like a novel then a biography.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
The marriage was already annulled when she was executed? That means Elizabeth would have been a bastard before her mother was executed.
supergirl011 3 years ago 4
I think that's why it was annulled - with Anne dead, Henry was free to remarry, but if Jane Seymour didn't have a child, or if she only had daughters, Elizabeth would have been heiress presumptive to the throne.
HollyBastat 3 years ago
I thought it would be Mary? Oh, yeah, the Act of Succession.
SpanishDescendent 3 years ago
That's right. Mary had already been declared illegitimate so, even though she was older, she was out of the line of succession.
I've read that with Elizabeth also declared illegitimate, Henry was considering making his illegitimate son heir after Jane Seymour's children, but Fitzroy died not long after Anne.
HollyBastat 3 years ago
felt like you were saying that I was only hating on Katherine because I was an Anne fan. Sorry about that. I can understand why Katherine lied - I really can - but I personally still think she was a fool for it, just like Anne was. It's great she died with dignity but she didn't gain anything and she didn't save Mary anything either. If Edward hadn't died, she never would have gotten the thrown at all, and she still ended up divorced...
I dunno. If I'd been them, I'd have said "OKAY!" XD
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
If Katherine wanted to preserve Mary's title as princess, there were at least two options available to her.
If she retired to a convent, Mary would still have been legitimate and she would have been released from her marriage instead of it being declared invalid.
If she didn't want to enter a convent, then as long as she and Henry admitted that they had been wrong to marry but that they had married in good faith, Mary would still have been legitimate and would still have been a princess.
HollyBastat 3 years ago
But Kat wasnt going to let Mary be displaced by a bastard son gotten off a Boleyn the great whore & scandal of Christendom
justlooking213 3 years ago
If Katherine withdrew from the marriage voluntarily, then Henry would be able to marry Anne - so any sons they had would have been legitimate.
HollyBastat 3 years ago
Yes but to Katherine they would be bastards She thought Anne was a Heretic and whore sent by Satan to destroy Her Henry and the whole of England In her mind the only thing standing between Henry and God's wrath was her (a little prideful on her part) As far as Kat was concerned if Henry wanted a son he would just have to wait until she was dead
justlooking213 3 years ago
There had been a precedent for divorces to be granted when a queen did not provide an heir, and even the Pope was encouraging Katherine to retire to a nunnery - he had the authority to release her from her earthly marriage in order to allow her to become a Bride of Christ.
I sympathize with all three of them.
Katherine would have been raised to believe that it was her duty to tie England to Spain - which the marriage of Mary, heir to the throne, and the Emperor would have achieved.
TBC
HollyBastat 3 years ago
Henry's concerns about what would happen to England if he didn't have a son were not groundless. If Mary had married Charles and had a son, England would have become part of Spain. There was also the possibility of civil war.
Anne was trapped between a rock and a hard place; I don't think that she thought that Henry would marry her when she refused to be his mistress, but once he called her bluff, backing out would have been easier said than done, especially as the Great Matter progressed.TBC
HollyBastat 3 years ago
God's wrath wouldn't have been an issue, nor would Anne's children have been bastards in the eyes of the law or of the Church.
However, chances are that Katherine would have preferred to see her child on the throne rather than Anne's child or any other woman's - human nature, really. It can't have been easy for Katherine to know that her husband wanted to set her aside, but there were options that could have made it easier for all concerned.
I wonder if she regretted her choices later on.
HollyBastat 3 years ago
She signed her last letter to him Katherine the Queen so I guess not The Pope and the Catholics applied pressure to Kat b/c they thought she was the weakest link in this chain & breaking her would be fastest way to a resolution that would protect Catholic interests in England but she choose to fight & she had every right and reason to I dont blame her at all & Anne knew what she was doing & the risk she was taking when she made a play for the throne Her every move was strategic & calculated
justlooking213 3 years ago
Anne never planned to move for the throne. She planned to keep the King's interests prolonged. There's no proof she went in expecting a marriage - not that I've found, any. I don't know why people assume she did. Yes, she refused to be his mistress at first, but that's because she was attempting to keep his desire for her. Sleeping with him right away wouldn't have done that, now would it?
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
The david Starkey miniseries doesnt count? Kat was in trouble the minute she hit menopause Henry was already looking for a way out his marriage before he met Anne She didnt want to settle for being a Mistress at all not when she could be queen
justlooking213 3 years ago
I have never liked Starkey, actually. That miniseries has given a lot of points I've NEVER heard anywhere and a lot of what was given felt like it as going off of opinion and propaganda more then fact. But maybe that's just me. As far as I've been able to tell of EVERY biography of Anne I've read, she never PLANNED on being Queen - it started out as a plan to keep Henry's interests in tact for as long as possible. It just went farther then any party expected it to.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Limits :(
Not to mention, after rewatching the miniseries from your comments, I never heard any of the things you claim - I never heard about the almost mutilation of her hand from tearing off Jane's necklace as you claimed. And my fiancee (who rewatched more of it then me) says she never heard that NOR your claim that he said she tried to be Queen first from it. So maybe you're confusing your sources? I do that sometimes given that I have so many D:
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
England would not have become part of Spain
katharinethequene 3 years ago
Actually in both of those cases Mary would have been deemed illigitamte
katharinethequene 3 years ago
Not necessarily.
In cases where a marriage was made in good faith, which was the case with Henry and Katherine, the children could be considered legitimate, even if it was later annulled - for example, when Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII's marriage was annulled, their daughters were declared legitimate.
Had the pope found in favour of Henry, or had Katherine consented to an annulment, Mary could have continued to be recognized as legitimate.
HollyBastat 3 years ago
The cases are diffrent, In Louis and Eleanor's case it was annulled because of the need for a male heir. In Hnery and Catherine's case it would be annulled on the grounds it was INVALID - and if I marriage is invalid ergo it never legally existed the children of that union would be illegitimate
katharinethequene 3 years ago
A marriage could not be annulled on the grounds of sonlessness. It might be the *reason* why an annulment was sought, but it wouldn't be the *grounds* for it being granted.
Louis and Eleanor's marriage was annulled on the grounds of consanguinity; they were third cousins once removed or something like that (ironically, almost exactly the same affinity by blood that Henry and Catherine shared), so it provided an official excuse to annul their marriage.
HollyBastat 3 years ago
Anyway why did Catherine have any reason to believe Henry in his promise when he had broken every promise he had ever made her? And why shouldn't she have fought for her daughter's rightful claim instead of letting her put behind Anne's children?
katharinethequene 3 years ago
10 episodes of "I'M A VIRGIN!" didn't help my annoyance with her any either lmao.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
Trust me, I didnt't mean direct, but that's not important. She stood against the odds not to make her child a bastard. I respectfully don't think she lied. Seeing the way she was raised a pious Catholic, she wouldn't lie, seeing that I am a pious Catholic myself, I would'nt lie about something like that.
supergirl011 3 years ago
I was raised Catholic and my mother was raised a pious Catholic and I knew lots of people who were in the church so I don't think that her religion had anything to do with it. There's proof she lied, it's in almost half the books I have, so this statement isn't ungrounded. I think all she did was make a fool out of herself. That's my opinion, you don't have to agree.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
I finally able to see the first two episodes of Season 2. Which was very good. *g* Such a great video you did. By the way, can I make a request? Could you do a video based on the love story of Henry and Anne from the first two episodes of Season 2?
lexa4227 3 years ago
They were! I'm sad that the third one sounds rushed and terrible, but I haven't seen it yet so I don't knoooow D: But sure! Is there any specific song you'd like it to or preference on genre?
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
I love all the videos that you do. *g* Um any song you can think of for the video is fine with me. Can the preference be Henry/Anne tender moments before their relationship goes down hill. *lol* Thanks!
lexa4227 3 years ago
Sure! I think that Will You Fall For Me is the closest thing I have to that (and maybe this video, but Katherine shows the strain on it) but I'd be happy to make one that is just filled with fluff.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
You are too good!
I can't wait to see what you'll come up with as the season progresses!
Kitty273 4 years ago
Ugh, I can't WAIT for the next few episodes to get sent to me online. Or for them to be posted SOMEWHERE that I can get them. jdkfsd SO EXCITED.
heirofamalfoy 4 years ago
Define "sent to me online"
justlooking213 3 years ago
It was given to me by a friend who had it on her computer. She sent it to me through AIM.
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago
I bought the 1st two episodes off ebay unless someones posting the rest of season 2 somewhere Im outta luck til Oct 08 thats when it airs in Canada
justlooking213 3 years ago
Well at least you got the first two x.x If I get the others (which I ought to), I'll try my best to find a way to send them your way!
heirofamalfoy 3 years ago