Is a dragon fly amazing? Yes! Is it related to humans? It seems a perfect design that does not change much at all. If it is an ancestor of mine why don't I fly. LOL
This is a great video and all, but i still don't see how this helps creation, since "it evolved" can be used against it. Not that evolution is right. (yes, bold statement)
Such great thought put into the design of the humble dragonfly. On the other hand the design is not too hot on the showpiece of creation i.e. humans with curvature of the spine, heart defects, menstruation pains, still borns, siamese twins, cancer, blindness, inability to create the vital vitamin C, wisom teeth, transgenderism, many diseases to numerous to list.
Thankfully, we have moved on from the "it's complicated so god must have done it" days.
@pilgrimpater So your argument here is that because something is imperfect in your view, it cant have been made by an intelligent being, it has to have evolved?
My car breaks down, the tires wear out, the paint fades, I have to refuel it all the time, add oil, it gets scratched or dented. Therefore my car must have surely evolved from the first ford ever built. This is the logic you are employing right?
PS..I am not a xtian. (let me cut off your typical parroted answer first)
@karamarouge Your car analogy is poor. You are talking about wear & tear of moving parts & not the actual design. Wear & tear happens to every organism & happens to every car even a Rolls Royce. This is totally different to design where a badly designed car is disfunctional from the start. If people are designed then the designer is responsible for numerous cock ups. It only makes any sense under Evolution. P.S. Couldn't give a stuff if you ae Xtian, Muslim or Atheist.
@pilgrimpater Oh well then let me tell you about a laptop I bought from Dell some time back. The Dvd player didnt work, two of the usb ports were damaged and didnt function. The software was poorly installed. The laptop got viruses all the time.
That is not wear and tear thats how it came from the factory. So I guess it must have evolved from the abacus or something.
No matter how you put it your logic is just plain nonsense. There is no other way to put it!
@karamarouge Was your Dell designed badly or did the quality control procedures at manufacturing fail? Either way this says nothing about design because the vast majority of laptops, including Dells, are well designed. They have to be else they go out of business. However, looking at humans we ALL suffer from the same poor "design" faults.Design makes no sense but thisd is exactly what would be predicted of evolution.
Your "logic" is fatally flawed. A Design fault maybe?
@pilgrimpater lol...this is getting funnier by the post. The vast majority of laptops are well designed? Well sir the vast majority of humans are well designed. They dont have 4 arms and birth defects etc. Humans all suffer from the same design faults? All laptops suffer from the same design faults. They crash, catch viruses. battery runs out, they are too big and bulky, they cant make coffee. (see that is my own personal perception of design flaws. just like yours about humans.
@karamarouge Indeed it get's funnier. We don't have 4 arms because that would give us 6 limbs and we would be unique within our phylum. But what we do have is an appendix that can be removed with no detrimental effect yet if retained has the potential to burst causing instant death. This applies to ALL humans whereas differing makes of laptop can have differing design faults (btw the viruses are in the software).
@pilgrimpater Wait one second, you think all humans will die from the horrible bursting appendix if it is not removed? Or is this just a risk? Kind of how any laptops can get fried and die and instant death if there is a power surge? hmm? Does that mean laptops evolved?
Did you say viruses are in the software? You dont know much about computers do you?
Say what you will but the fact is that your perceived design flaws of the human body are not arguments against a designer.
@pilgrimpater Wait one second, you think all humans will die from the horrible bursting appendix if it is not removed? Or is this just a risk? Kind of how any laptops can get fried and die and instant death if there is a power surge? hmm? Does that mean laptops evolved?
Did you say viruses are in the software? You dont know much about computers do you?
Say what you will but the fact is that your perceived design flaws of the human body are not arguments against a designer.
@karamarouge "you think all humans will die from the horrible bursting appendix if it is not removed? " Pay attention. I didn't say that. Indeed it is a risk. A risk that we have no control over and a risk placed there solely by this unprovable & imaginary designer.
Don't be silly, vuruses are totally to pertianing to software unless you want to count taking a hammer to your hardware as a virus. Just disable your Anti virus software if you don't believe me.
@pilgrimpater Yes and the risk of a short circuit exists potentially for every computer ever designed. A risk put there by the designer. So is the potential for a critical viral infection that can wipe out all the data and kill the computer. Through avenues, (software, ports etc)
that were put there by the designer.
Again. Perceived flaws are not evidence for lack of an intelligent designer.
@karamarouge "Yes and the risk of a short circuit exists potentially for every computer ever designed" True but again it is not part of the design. The circuitry is vital for the running of the computer and a short is a risk worh taking and indeed extremely rare (else the punters would not risk owning computers).
The appendix on the other hand has a vital function in other mammals but this function is not necessary for humans. So why put in this potential time bomb?
@pilgrimpater Again your argument is absurd. The microphone on a computer is not vital. Yet it can be the cause of a short circuit! And the potential for a short circuit is every bit part of the design of the computer. Parts that transmit electricity were used, just as the appendix which also has a use in humans (google that). Those parts can cause a short circuit and were put there by design not by accident just like the appendix.
@karamarouge "The microphone on a computer is not vital. " It fulfils a function. If YOU want that function YOU buy & add it to your computer. Again it isn't designed to kill. "Parts that transmit electricity were used," Because without electricity it can't work. No potential fatal short circuits are designed.
"the appendix which also has a use in humans" Not it's original use & it can still be removed with no ill effect unlike electricity in your pc. Your analogy is flawed.
@pilgrimpater Likewise the appendix fulfils a function. And again the appendix was not designed to kill apparently just like the mic. I dont see how you make such a silly disjointed argument that the appendix is not like electricity in the computer. Be a man and compare it to the mic just like I posted. Enough of these silly cheap parlor tricks you play, trying to make silly comparisons that no one is alluding to to hide the obvious flaw in your logic!
@karamarouge "Likewise the appendix fulfils a function." Yes but it is not a vital function and it is not the same function as with our evolutionary cousins (i.e. breaking down cellulose in a raw vegeabtle diet). So it makes sense under evolution but not under design.
"Enough of these silly cheap parlor tricks you play," It's yor analogy that is found wanting.
@pilgrimpater No...you pretty much lied when you made the bogus comparison between electricity in a laptop and the appendix yet because you knew your argument falls apart if you stuck with my analogy, which was the Mic on the the laptop. That was the cheap and rather shallow parlor trick attempt on your part
@karamarouge Sorry but it is absoluteley clear and it is certainly a cowardly and cheap trick to label me as a liar just because i don't fall for your poor analogy.
It's simple.
No electricity= No laptop. Which is equivalent to No Blood = No Human BUT Totally different to, No Appendix = perfectly functioning human being.
I am amazed that you cannot grasp this simple point.
@karamarouge "MICROPHONE IS TO LAPTOP AS APPENDIX IS TO HUMAN!!"
Sorry to labour the point but you don't quite get it.
Electricity is equivalent to the blood i.e. necessary for the object to function even in it's most basic form.
The microphone is a peripheral device that you have the choice to implement (and it is designed not to blow up the rest of the PC) whereas we have no choice but to start out with the potentially fatal appendix. You failing to comprehend makes me no liar.
@pilgrimpater So what is your argument that the choice of what peripherals you choose or not choose determines the existence of the designer? What difference does it make if I chose the mic. or not? Does a creator seize to exist because he apparently gave us no choice in what parts we want or dont want? What kind of logic is this.
@karamarouge I make no correllation between periphereals & a "designer". I merely described YOUR analogy of a MIc as a peripheral in that it is your choice whether you add it or not. You have no choice. The Mic is something that you ADD to improve your computer but the appendix you SUBTRACT to continue your life.
@pilgrimpater May be some one should explain to you the use of the appendix because to this point I dont think you get it. The appendix is key to development of the human immune system. In fetuses it produces important biogenic compounds important for biological control mechanisms. It has several safeguards to protect it from infection but like the mic, even the best safeguards in any designed system can and do fail.
@karamarouge "May be some one should explain to you the use of the appendix " Maybe someone should explain it's use in other mammals. It is vital for breaking down cellulose. Humans cannot break down cellulose so obviously our appendix can no longer fulfil this function. You can argue all you like about other functions but these cannot be vital else no surgeon would ever carry out an appendix remova operation.
@pilgrimpater To further cement how silly your argument is. in the USA 300,000 appendectomies are carried out. 60-80% of those are not even necessary. There are over 311 million people. So appendectomies are carried out on about 0.1 of the population.
If any designed product had such a failure rate, the designer and consumer would be much pleased with it! Shit that means over 99% of the use population dont ever have to worry about appendicitis.
To avoid wasting my time please do a google search on the necessity of appendectomies before you respond to the FACT that majority of them have been deemed unecessary. It seems some real scientists found valid proof that the appendix was indeed designed to wither infection and return to normal function without killing its owner. (or bursting and releasing bacteria that ultimately kills the person to be specific.)
@pilgrimpater" 2) It can kill you if not removed." Once again you are an individual who is not afraid of telling out right lies on a public forum to advance pseudo science.
The appendix will not kill you if not removed! 99.9% of the world population actually live happy health lives with their appendices intact and un removed.
Enough with the silly lies. You are putting science to shame with these myths and exaggerations.
@karamarouge "Once again you are an individual who is not afraid of telling out right lies on a public forum to advance pseudo science."
Such a liar that i personally know two otherwise fit people having to be rushed to hospital in the middle of the night with burst appendix in order to have their lives saved.
Some Lie. Some crap "design".
You still don't get it. Both the heart and appendix can kill you. The difference is that the former is vital & the latter is not.
@karamarouge "So appendectomies are carried out on about 0.1 of the population."
I suspect a smaller proportion of people are killed by being run over, so hey, jay walking on the motorway is a good idea. i in a 1000 is quite frightening. I'm relatively happy to have a computer that has a 1 in 1000 chance of failure but a device in my body? Sorry, i want better odds than that. Considering it's vestigial use, this cannot possibly be the result of a designer.
@pilgrimpater "Sorry, i want better odds than that. Considering it's vestigial use"
Once again comprehension fails and logic seems to be completely lacking.
Your needs or wants are not the standards by which the world determines design.
Your failure to understand that the appendix is not a vestigial organ as proven by real scientists is something I will not waste my time trying to further educate you on. It seems I am wasting my time talking to some one with a hatred for FACTS.
@karamarouge "Your needs or wants are not the standards by which the world determines design." I want evidence that any "designer" is competent. Without that evidence and confidence then everything points to at worse (for you), no designer or at best a totally incompetent designer and if the latter it cannot be god. Add to that our genetic history as revealed by molecular biology then we are obsviously looking at a vestige from the evolutionary process.
@pilgrimpater "Your needs or wants are not the standards by which the world determines design." I want evidence that any "designer" is competent.
But you have been given plenty of this evidence. You refused to accept it. I did see where you constantly argue that the appendix is a vestigial device despite the fact that you yourself have said you have read peer reviewed papers from scientists saying it indeed has a use and is not vestigial. THAT DIDNT STOP YOU FROM LYING DID IT?
@pilgrimpater That is the correct comparison to make but you falsely changed the comparison to electricity!!
That is the cheap parlor trick on your part. I clearly picked the microphone for a reason!
Dont twist my words and then try to squeeze in electricity as though I brought it up or that its even a fair argument considering the clear comparison I made!
@karamarouge "you falsely changed the comparison to electricity!!" I had to as your analogy was incorrect and forgive me if i am wrong but i think you will find that short circuits involve electricity.
"That is the cheap parlor trick on your part. " Your analogy mate. Your problem.
@pilgrimpater No the analogy is quite correct. But because you seem to think that electricity is what causes a short circuit therefore electricity is at fault right?
Some one needs to explain to u yet again that the appendix itself does not kill! Its the germs and other septic fluids it was holding. (protecting your body organs) that r released when it bursts. That is what kills kill you not the appendix. The bacteria it is to protect you from!!
@karamarouge "No the analogy is quite correct." It's not.
Designer A can build a computer in it's most basic form e.g. power source, processor, main memory, storage, screen, keyboard, operating system. Any of these missing and nothing else works (practically). Now Designer B may design the same but add a device that adds some minor unnecessary functionality but is prone to shorting out & blowing all the circuits. Whose design are you going to buy?
@karamarouge "That is what kills kill you not the appendix." Oh please it is you who is playing word games. I'm not saying the appendix comes out and hits you on the head with a hammer. The fact is that when it bursts then without immediatte medical help, you can die. Replace Appendix with germs and septic fluids if you like but it's still the same argument of bad design.
@pilgrimpater Oh where was this freaking logic when I said the mic would cause a short that will kill the computer. You went off on some tangent about how the electricity is the one the kills the computer. Thus my analogy is exactly the same. Two peripheral parts that can be the cause of of a system wide failure.
@karamarouge "You went off on some tangent about how the electricity is the one the kills the computer." No i'm trying to get you to understand that there are some things that computer MUST have to operate and otheres that are not necessary (a luxury even) e.g. the mic. So WE cannot operate without blood or a heart (yes they can both fail) but we can operate WITHOUT an appendix which can kill you no matter how well you look after yourself.
@pilgrimpater Once again, the appendix does not kill. (I am getting quite tired of educating you on this). It is the infection that kills you.
And I dont see how that differentiates between any peripheral on a laptop and a "peripheral" organ for humans.
You are yet to make a clear and concise defense. Your babbling on and on about electricity has nothing to do with the fact that the mic can cause a short circuit and kill the computer.
@karamarouge "It is the infection that kills you." Well let's go with this. It bursts and releases infection. So it is the cause of that infection getting into your body. You trully are playimng with words here to dig yourself out of this hole that you have dug. Name anothere organ that can "burst" and put life threatening infection into your body.
The mic, again, YOUR analogy. Not my fault if it is a poor one.
@pilgrimpater This is quite stupid. No the appendix is not the cause of the infection getting into your body. That is about as stupid as stupid gets and the more you post the move evident it becomes that you are an idiot that does not understand science at all. Bacteria actually enter your body through a multitude of ways, through your mouth, nose, eyes, skin etc. ARe you so stupid that you think bacteria teleport to the appendix?
@karamarouge "the move evident it becomes that you are an idiot that does not understand science at all. "
No need to embarrass yourself like this with such childish rants.
I really don't understand the point that you make about bacteria entering the human body. Of course they do but also many bacteria are there from day one & vital such as those that aid digestion. The bacteria in the appendix cannot be vital if it can be removed with no ill effect.
@pilgrimpater My calling you and idiot is not a childish rant it is the very accurate description of your pathetic understanding of biology. Now like a fool you post more proof of your own stupidity.
The good bacteria in the appendix are not the ones that cause death if released into the abdomen you ignoramus. You dont want me to call you an idiot then refrain from making idiotic statements.
@pilgrimpater My calling you and idiot is not a childish rant it is the very accurate description of your pathetic understanding of biology. Now like a fool you post more proof of your own stupidity.
The good bacteria in the appendix are not the ones that cause death if released into the abdomen you ignoramus. You dont want me to call you an idiot then refrain from making idiotic statements.
@pilgrimpater The stomach you dumbass!!! a perforation in the stomach lining will lead to the very same peronitis that will kill you when your appendix burst.
For crying out loud kid stop arguing about issues you obviously do not understand!
This arguments you are making a just plain stupid! I am playing with words? I am not the one doing something as stupid as blaming a body organ for getting infected!
@karamarouge "The stomach you dumbass!!! a perforation in the stomach lining will lead to the very same peronitis that will kill you when your appendix burst."
The stomach is necessary. We can't live without a stomach (well not a normal life anyway) but we can, and many do, live without the appendix. So why put it there just so it can be infected and kill you?
Hint, if you dispense with your childish rants then you may be able to fit more into each comment.
@karamarouge "You went off on some tangent about how the electricity is the one the kills the computer." No i'm trying to get you to understand that there are some things that computer MUST have to operate and otheres that are not necessary (a luxury even) e.g. the mic. So WE cannot operate without blood or a heart (yes they can both fail) but we can operate WITHOUT an appendix which can kill you no matter how well you look after yourself.
@pilgrimpater And I will state my argument again so you cant obfuscate or try to twist my words. You can remove an appendix from a human and the human will survive. U can remove the mic and the laptop will still work! The appendix has the potential to kill you and the mic has the potential to kill the laptop as well!
Now will u argue that because the laptop mic can cause a short and destroy the laptop that it evolved?
@karamarouge "And I will state my argument again" No need to repeat it. I fully understand & i've found numerous flaws with it. If you can't address my points then refering back to your initial claim will not suffice.
Can you not understand that you have no choice to have an appendix but you DO have a choice to own a mic (i bought mine 4 years after my PC).
Safeguards are designed into the mic but not in the appendix which is a lottery.
@pilgrimpater Again you make one of your unscientific made up facts.No safeguards are designed into the appendix? Is this the part where I point out the absurdity of your claim and then you pretend like it was a simple mistake and walk back these factually bogus statements? The appendix has safe guards. It doesnt just burst. What kind of nonsense is this that you are trying to pass of as science?
@karamarouge "The appendix has safe guards. It doesnt just burst. "
I am not saying it is a literal explosion but of course they "burst"
I know two people who have ben rushed to hospital overnight with the condition and had they not they would have died. That's not trying to pass off something as science..
@pilgrimpater First you said that the appendix has no use. Then i correctly challenged that false claim and directed you to google to find several articles from scientists revealing the critical use of the appendix. Then you made silly claims that you knew this all along. (Which begs the question, why you keep making this factually wrong and inconsistent statements) Are you this desperate to get your argument ahead?
@karamarouge "First you said that the appendix has no use." It harbours useful bacteria but so do other parts. These other parts cannot necessarily be removed but the appendix can because it's ORIGINAL use is now redundant. So yes it has no use. Now who is playing parlour games? If it can be removed with NO adverse effect then it is not necessary.
@pilgrimpater I will say again no i can not understand what my choice has to do with anything. The mic came built into the laptop. I didnt have a choice about it. It can be the source of a short that can kill the whole laptop. How does my choice (in this case none existant have to do with whether my laptop was designed or not)
@karamarouge "The mic came built into the laptop." You know fully well that we are discussing optional extras. Of course some computers come with a built in Mic but we are talking about peripherals that can be added later. It doesn't have to be a mic but a mic is being used just for the sake of argument. If you want then why not change mic to scanner/printer. It makes no difference.
Bottom line is you don't design in a removable part that if not removed will blow up your computer.
@pilgrimpater "Bottom line is you don't design in a removable part that if not removed will blow up your computer." Logical reasoning seems to be the problem here. The mic, just like the appendix does not kill!
You are now making up stories that the appendix will kill you if not removed. That is another lie I am yet catching you in.
@karamarouge "Logical reasoning seems to be the problem here. " If you insist on nipicking then replace the word "will" with "can". You know full well the point i was making.
"You are now making up stories that the appendix will kill you if not removed. " Your comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired. The appendix which can be removed with no adverse effect (i.e. is not vital) has the potential to kill you if not removed (as the "designer" intended). Is that clearer?
@pilgrimpater "The appendix which can be removed with no adverse effect (i.e. is not vital) has the potential to kill you if not removed (as the "designer" intended). Is that clearer?"
It is clearer but this tortured logic. How do you know the intention of the designer? ARe you able to communicate with him in some manner that some of us are not aware of?
The designer made the appendix for a specific reason. It can suffer infection just like every other part of the body.
@karamarouge "How do you know the intention of the designer? "
a) There is no evidence of a designer b) even if designed, it is still a bad design even if do nnot know the intentions. The uintentions are irrelevent when a design fault can kill me.
"ARe you able to communicate with him "
a) I cannot communicate with that which has no evidence for it's existence b) "HE"??
"It can suffer infection just like every other part of the body." So definately not needed.
@pilgrimpater No no you dont get to this. This is may analogy not yours. You dont get to decide for me what peripheral parts are in my laptop. My laptop came with a mic and other parts that I had no choice but to buy along with it! CASE CLOSED!
I am the one who presented the built in mic i will appreciate it if you dont go out of you way to corrupt my analogy so that it fits your logic.
@karamarouge "This is may analogy not yours" Maybe you should have chosen a better one. Bottom line does not change. You do not design in something that is not necessary for the functioning of the body while that something has the capacity to kill you. Compare this to the heart which can fail (& that's more often than not to do with lifestyle) yet is absolutely vital. That is why i refer to the appendix & not the heart. Your analogy is poor anyway.
@pilgrimpater "Bottom line does not change. You do not design in something that is not necessary for the functioning of the body while that something has the capacity to kill you"
But the mic on my laptop is not necessary for the functioning of the computer but it also has the capacity to kill it as well.
It is a very appropriate analogy. Very appropriate you are yet to explain why it is not. (or yeah that tortured logic about electricity was your retort..lol)
@pilgrimpater Once again, the appendix does not kill you.. I repeat, the appendix, does not kill you. Just like if a mosquito bites you, its not your skin that kills you because that was the entry point for the organism that killed ya.
Once again, educate yourself on the biology of the human body so you dont make silly statements. Any system once infected by outside agents can be destroyed by those agents.
@karamarouge "Once again, the appendix does not kill you"
Once again it does kill you if it bursts. What do you want me to say? That the appendix grabs a gun and shoots you? You are playing word games now because the appendix DOES kill if it bursts. The Mosquito is another crap analogy because it is an external fact or not designed as part of your body from day one.
I do not need to understand the appendix more than a i do a magnum to know that they kill. All i get is word games.
@pilgrimpater Whats worse yet, many american industries have indeed designed very many products with optional features that have the potential to kill you and did indeed kill people. This goes to show your basic understanding of industry and technology. There are so so many products from heaters, to hair dryers etc etc. That is a really worthless argumet from you.
It is. For those creatures that still have it, it is used to process cellulose. WE can't do that despite having an appendix, so since it doesn't fulfil it's ORIGINAL function, it is vestigial.
"Mic on laptop- I didnt have choice whether to have it or not."
Originally you inferred that you added it. Make your mind up.
If it does short and kill you then that is bad design. See the similarity?
@pilgrimpater This argument is really getting stupid. Its like I am talking to a 4 year old that is just plain stupid. The appendix in humans is not vestigial. REAL SCIENTISTS HAVE PROVEN THIS!. Arguing with you on this is like trying to convince a fool that the world is not flat.
If you are dumb and want to continue arguing like a daft child then do so. But I will not waste my time trying to convince some illiterate idiot of scientific fact.
@karamarouge "This argument is really getting stupid."
"Its like I am talking to a 4 year old that is just plain stupid. "
"If you are dumb and want to continue arguing like a daft child then do so"
I would prefer you offered some relevant points rather than such childish rants.
Who are these REAL scientists that have proven the appendix is not vestigial? B because most believe it is? Why does it process cellulose in other animals but not in us?
@pilgrimpater Um no. No where did I post that I added the mic. you are now making up crap because you realize that your argument based on choice is just silly.
And lets not get hangup on what you think I said, The fact is many laptops and other appliances come with peripheral features that can lead to a system wide collapse without the consumer opting for them.
@karamarouge "The fact is many laptops and other appliances come with peripheral features" And they do something useful that if you take them away then that useful action can no longer be fulfilled i.e. you've lost some functionality.
On the other hand, you can remove the appendix & no functionality of the human body is lost. Add to this that it has the potential to kill you then you are left with crap "design" (assuming you could ever prove design in the first place).
@pilgrimpater ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE MAKING IDIOTIC STATEMENTS BASED ON YOUR IGNORANCE OF SCIENCE. The removal of the appendix leaves one body more vulnerable to infection via the intestinal track. But I guess because you are mentally retarded to some extent and cant simple google the use of the appendix to avoid making such scientifically innaccurate statements, I shall have to repeat this about 20 times before in sinks into your un-educated mind.
@pilgrimpater ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE MAKING IDIOTIC STATEMENTS BASED ON YOUR IGNORANCE OF SCIENCE. The removal of the appendix leaves one body more vulnerable to infection via the intestinal track. But I guess because you are mentally retarded to some extent and cant simple google the use of the appendix to avoid making such scientifically innaccurate statements, I shall have to repeat this about 20 times before in sinks into your un-educated mind.
@pilgrimpater Bad design is still design! However awful it may be! It is still designed. Artist Nelly Furtado has very bad music in my opinion that does not change the fact that a human wrote it and that there is no process in nature that can write the same bad songs.
@karamarouge "Bad design is still design!" True, but nobody has ever proven design and the worse the "design" then the more difficult that elusive task becomes. Certainly if it was "design" but bad "design" then the designer cannot be claimed as a god (just so you know).
@karamarouge "AGain it does not matter whether is optional or not,"
It does matter if you are cursed with something that can potentially kill you in a matter of hours only to know that it was never necessary in the first place.
If that is "design" then the Designer(s) must be the most incompetent prick(s) imaginable.
@pilgrimpater Yes he may be the most incompetent prick imaginable in your small mind. But he is still the designer and the system just like my laptop was indeed designed. Especially being that you have not designed or created a human life that is apparently immune to infection or any system that is eternal for that matter and violates the 3rd law of thermodynamics.
FOR THE LAST TIME DESIGN IS STILL DESIGN AND IS NOT DETERMINED BY THE YOUR FEEBLE MENTAL PERCEPTIONS.
@pilgrimpater There is plent of evidence that the natural world was designed. From the coded language of DNA to the fine tuning of the universe. Evidence that science to this day can not explain but with arguments about how they may not have answers but god didnt do it.
Your other points are just stupid. Refering to god as he/she/them or it takes or adds absolutely nothing to the argument.
But I did say are stupid and you prove me right again.
@karamarouge Who said DNA was a code (even if the term is used to simplify understanding)? It is no more a code than the number of protons in a nucleus determining the identity of an element. You are making one hell of a leap of faith
Who said the universe was fine tuned? Exploding stars, Black holes, colliding galaxies, Earth threatening asteroids etc are anything but fine tuning.
I still want to know why you apply a gender to your imaginary god. Does it have a penis?
@pilgrimpater"Who said DNA was a code" This is the stupidity I have been talking about from you. Total unabashed ignorance of science.
Ever geneticist even molecular biologist every biologist who has ever written on DNA refers to it as code so much so that its information can be mathematically measured.
Then your incredibly stupid question about the fine tuning of the universe? Son thats why universal laws of physics exist.
@pilgrimpater I dont care if they dont say it was designed. The fact is that you stated that DNA is not code. And every single living scientist clearly refers to it as code.
That is a statement from your ignorance of science.
Dont try to forment a new argument because you have been exposed.
If the laws and constants that govern the universe were different then life wouldnt exist.
But then again, I guess you didnt know that did you?
@karamarouge "And every single living scientist clearly refers to it as code."
Yet these very same scientists never attribute this "code" to a designer. It's not code in the sense of that written by a software engineers. We know that the code alters via every single generation from parent to child. Where is the "designer" there?
"If the laws and constants that govern the universe were different then life wouldnt exist." You mean life as we know it but A universe would still exist.
@pilgrimpater So what there are natural disasters, or earth threatening asteriods.
Last I checked humanity is still doing quite fine. We are still here and increasing every day.
Like i said before until you design a universe free from all the "perils" you perceive earth to be in. you should really shut up and stop making idiotic statements as though there is something better to which you are comparing earth to.
@karamarouge "So what there are natural disasters, or earth threatening asteriods."
Don't forget the diseases and epidemics. Seems rather stupid to spend all that time fine tuning the WHOLE universe so that humans can live in the tiniest speck imaginable within that universe, yet place all human life under such dreadful perils as if a lottery Madness.
"We are still here and increasing every day." And screwing billions of years of biodiversity into oblivion. What a Grand Design.
@pilgrimpater lastly and just as important. The phrase Fine tuning does not refer to natural disasters or asteroids. That is just your ignorance speaking. Fine tuning argument refers to certain universal physics constants.
Try and educate yourself about a topic before you run your mouth. Like how you just made a fool of yourself talking about DNA code like a semi-literate fool who to this date is unaware that it is code
@karamarouge "Fine tuning argument refers to certain universal physics constants."
Exactly. Well done & if any of the constants were different we'd have a different universe but we'd still have a universe. We could even have life based on those different constants albeit totally alien to ours. We don't even know how many universes there.
Why go to the effort of fixing constants while making life so damned perilous? It makes absolutely no sense if you bother to think about it.
@pilgrimpater Nope we would not have universe you dumbass!! Jesus christ you can say the dumbest things I have seen an atheist say. If the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off, then there would be no planets, no stars go galaxies. Only an idiot would think life possible in such an environment. Only a fool so stupid would claim such without any proof. (actually a person steeped in some kind of insane religion could claim such faith based nonsense without any proof at all
@karamarouge "Nope we would not have universe you dumbass!! " You can never grasp the point can you. Take any law that involves constants. Change the constants & you change the law but what do have is another law & a totally different universe. Why assume there should be galaxies?
"If the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off," Well these (& neutrons) DO vary. That's why you get different elements & isotopes.
Btw i cannot be steeped in religion if i don't have one.
@pilgrimpater No its you who has a problem grasping the simplest of things. It is not the universe alone we who make the fine tuning argument refer to. Its the ability to support life.
Now tell me again how would life exist without energy? the sun? what exactly would it be composed of..Let me guess you have no clue. You are just making claims based on what exactly? nothing? Nothing that can be seen, tested or falsified.(in other words faith alone. THAT IS YOUR RELIGION! SHEESH!)
@karamarouge "It is not the universe alone we who make the fine tuning argument refer to. Its the ability to support life." The abiliy to support life? To what end? Life is perilous at best. If life was fine tuned there would be no death, no killing. Why design life just to give it a shelf life? Why make life debilitating diseases? Why allow parasites make their hosts's lives a misery? Some utterly crap design. Some utterly crap designer.
@karamarouge For a supposedly intelligent person, you sure do curse alot. It subracts from all your arguments. We want to see how eloquently you can support your position not how vilely you can curse someone out. Read all your responses then hang your head in shame.
@karamarouge "Now tell me again how would life exist without energy? the sun? " I never claimed life could exist without energy. Your comprehension skills get worse.
Btw bacteria thrive in Hydrothernal Vents with no input from the sun & likewise extremophiles in deep caves by living off minerals.
"You are just making claims based on what exactly?" I make no claims of what another universe would be like. I only claim that if the constants were different then so would the universe.
@pilgrimpater "If the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off," Well these (& neutrons) DO vary. That's why you get different elements & isotopes."
Now people, when I call people retarded, I am called rude and abrasive. This man has just been told that the ratio or protons to electrons in the universe is constant.
And look at the incrediblyidiotic stupid response he comes back with..Seriously, you sound dumber than Miss Arkansas for saying something this stupid.
@karamarouge "If the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off,"
Well you didn't clarify that you were talking about the whole universe but big deal so what? If you are claiming that protons & electrons can neither be created nor destroyed then that statement is bleeding obvious. As well as brushing up on your poor comprehension skills maybe you could also learn to clarify your statements. That way, hopefully we can avoid confusion.
@karamarouge "I clarified it. It is written crystal clearly in my post! I"
This is what you wrote originally where you claim is so "crystal clear" (as mud).
"If the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off, then there would be no planets, no stars go galaxies " i.e. you made no clarification of this ration being based upon the totals of each within the universe. That's the trouble when you pick sound bites & slogans from creotard sites. Your communication skills are dire.
@pilgrimpater I will advise you one last time. Before posting something monumentally boneheaded and indicative of the level of ignorance you have, freaking use google.
ITS FUCKING EASY. USE GOOGLE DUMBASS. TYPE IN "RATIO OF PROTONS TO ELECTRONS IN THE UNIVERSE"
I promise you that will get so much info on the subject you wont make such stupid statements in your responses.
@karamarouge "ITS FUCKING EASY. USE GOOGLE DUMBASS. TYPE IN "RATIO OF PROTONS TO ELECTRONS IN THE UNIVERSE""
Yes but what is the relevance? How does that prove with a different ratio, we would have no universe at all? OK to help you grasp this point let's go into cat sat on the mat mode. Take equation x=c*y where c is a constant.
Plot a graph with c=1. Now change c=2 and replot. You will get a totally different graph but you still get a graph. Do you get it now?
@pilgrimpater Seriously, go pick up a science book and stop wasting my time with your infantile stupidity.
I am sick and tired of holding a general science course for you and guiding you to what the hell science is all the while you make these stupid comments.
honestly I am done with your stupidity. I will proudly say you are simply too stupid for me to argue with any more.
@karamarouge "Nope we would not have universe you dumbass!! " We would but not in the form that we recognise. You seem to be inferring the only alternative to our universe is nothing. How?
"if the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off, then there would be no planets, no stars go galaxies." I never claimed otherwise but you cannot be sure. How do you arrive at this?
"Only an idiot would think life possible in such an environment. " Again you assume life as we know it.
@pilgrimpater What makes you think that the creator had you in mind when he created the universe? What makes you think that your opinion of life being perilous even matters.
the 7 billion people on earth and growing would indicate that human life is doing quite well in spite of the perils you allege are wiping us out.
How do we know that the creators intentions were? You make the silly assumptions about what his intentions could/should have been.
@pilgrimpater I will not waste my time addressing my reference to the creator as one or the gender because it is rubbish. A stupid argument designed to dodge the fact that you are losing.
They have absolutely no baring whatsoever on the discussion. thats why they are rubbish that is why I wont waste my time on them.
@karamarouge "I will not waste my time addressing my reference to the creator as one or the gender because it is rubbish. "
Indeed. So why do you do it. All you have argued for here is design. Even though you cannot prove design, you make the giant blind leap of claiming there is only one designer and of the male gender at that. I am merey intrigued as to how you arrive at this comclusion. I think it is relevant to the discussion if you want to provide some sort of evidence.
@pilgrimpater On the day you or any other creationist do design the "perfect human" or show existence of the so called perfect human then we can have something to compare our human life with and indeed agree that there is a better human design out there. (not just in your feeble mind.)
Since we are the only examples of humans around your perception that we are imperfect is just plain stupid! My laptop can be badly designed because there are many to compare it to. NONE FOR HUMANS.
@karamarouge "On the day you or any other creationist do design the "perfect human" " You're already communicating with the perfect human being i.e. me.
Of course human "design" will improve, as we are still evolving (but unnatural selection by us could negate this). Oh btw i am not a creationist.
"our perception that we are imperfect is just plain stupid!" The useless but potentially lethal appendix is but one example in a long line of poor "design" features. I'd have done better.
@pilgrimpater And until you can prove that you know the intentions of the designer, If you cant prove that he did not mean to build the whole human body with all its vulnerabilities and capabilities then your argument is just plain stupid. If you can prove to us that his goal was to build an invulnerable superman like being then you win the argument.
@pilgrimpater "I fully understand & i've found numerous flaws with it"
You are yet specify even one flaw in my analogy that does not compare directly with the appendix. Both can be removed, both have a use, both can be the cause of a system wide failure. Where exactly is the flaw in the analogy? (Pray tell you wont leap back to that electricity nonsense, as though you are still unaware that the appendix is not the cause of death it is bacteria.)
@karamarouge "Both can be removed, both have a use, both can be the cause of a system wide failure."
Only one is enforced upon you from day one and that one's "use" is not critical for any functiion whereas the one that you added layer is critical for the function for which you purchased it.
Re elecricity. Try running your computer without it. Re Mic. Your computer will operate fine without it.
@pilgrimpater I will say again whether one is forced upon you or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was designed or not. Secondly, My mic was indeed forced upon me. I dont use it for anything whatsoever. And the appendix is critical in the development of the fetus and the development of the human immune system
@karamarouge "I will say again whether one is forced upon you or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was designed or not. " Oh so the appendix may not have been designed but some line manager decided it shhould go in. In which case the whole "designer" argument goes out the window anyway (actually it does even without this topic).
"My mic was indeed forced upon me." Was your appendix forced on you? Analogy fail again.
@pilgrimpater "I will say again whether one is forced upon you or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was designed or not. " Oh so the appendix may not have been designed but some line manager decided it shhould go in. In which case the whole "designer" argument goes out the window anyway (actually it does even without this topic)."
What the heck does this mean? How does a sane person arrive to this conclusion?
@karamarouge "And the appendix is critical in the development of the fetus and the development of the human immune system" In what way is the appendix vital in the fetus? There are numerous other stages in the fetus that come and go (we even have a tail so presumably that is vital yet it soon disappears, well most times). But for the umpteenth time, if it is vital for the human immune system then how come you can live a totally healthy lifestyle without it?
@pilgrimpater Whether you like it or not, it is not a scientific of even logical argument for that matter to claim that because you perceive of something as flawed or imperfect, that this automatically negates a designer. That is silly reasoning. It is not scientific it makes no sense especially since all your perceptions are made with absolutely no knowledge of the designer's intent.
@karamarouge "that this automatically negates a designer. " It negates an efficient and perfect designer. If this is part of design then the designer has failings and cannot be labelled god. The truth is that the vestigial (regardless of it's secondary use) ties in perfectly with an evolutionary past. There is not one single paper that has proved design "It's complicated so it must be designed" is not evidence). btw i chose the appendix as one of many "design" flaws.
@pilgrimpater A good example is the american car industry that build various products with "planned absolescence". Designed specifically to become useless after a while due to various factors like mechanical failure so customers would come back and buy more!
Shall we now argue that all these products from these industries evolved because there is a design flaw specifically put there?
Your argument is illogical which ever way u put it!
@karamarouge "A good example is the american car industry " Another crap analogy. So now you are saying we are designed to die. So how does the lootery of a burst appendix fit into this scenario? Are you saying that are lives are planned from cradle to grave? How come surgeons are allowed to remove and undermine the "designer"'s time bomb?
"Shall we now argue that all these products from these industries evolved " No they are not self replicating.
@pilgrimpater REgarding the use of the appendix. before making more un-informed comments about it being useless(or not being used for its original use..whatever that means) I encourage you to google it and read several scientific articles written about it, by scientists no less.
@karamarouge "encourage you to google it and read several scientific articles written about it, by scientists no less. " No need to. I already know enough that the appendix and other parts of the colon harbor beneficuial bacteria. However, an individual can lead a perfectly normal life with the removal of the appendix (original use to break down cellulose) yet cannot survive without a truly vital organ such a the heart.
btw Fancy having to design in beneficial bacteria.
@pilgrimpater Again with your silly parlor tricks. Did i say a human can survive without a heart? Secondly your statement that the appendix has no use is completely false. Let us put that to rest right now!
Thirdly the argument that a person can live a normal life without an appendix is just silly. A person can live without an arm, or an eye, or ear lobes, even a nose.
That is not proof that there is no designer. Goes back to the mic on my laptop. I dont need it.
@karamarouge "Did i say a human can survive without a heart? " No but i am making a comparison about that which is vital yet which can still fail and kill you with that which is unnecessary yet can also still kill you. Again, it's a very simple point to grasp.
"A person can live without an arm," True but an arm can never be a potential killer prior to it being removed.
@pilgrimpater You have a questionable understanding of human anatomy and biology as a whole.
Yes sir your arm can kill you. So can your eye, your testis, every single part of your body just like the appendix can suffer from an infection and lead to your death. Every single part of your body just like the appendix is open to some kind of infection which can ultimately kill. Again you keep making these statements that have no basis in reality.
@karamarouge "Yes sir your arm can kill you. So can your eye, your testis, every single part of your body " So an arm, eye, testis can burst to the degree that you die within a matter of hours? Infections can be cured WITHOUT removal and they are not urgent. No the appendix is akin to designing a cobra to live in your stomach that may or may not fatally bite you depending upon your luck.
@karamarouge "Yet it can be the cause of a short circuit! " No a microphone did not come with my pc. I had to buy it. Unlike my appendix where i had no choice in having this dangerous piece of equipment. If all PCs came with an exploding hard wired mic then you may have an analogy worth considering. The bottom line is that we can live without an appendixbut we are still encumbered with one.
@pilgrimpater Oh BTW, my laptop also has a bunch of useless software and bits and pieces I can remove with no detrimental effect, like the msn messaging stuff, the games and other stuff like the monitor port, even built in camera and microphone. I can even remove a few keys that i never use and it will still function very well. (pg down key for example) heck I can even remove a few screws here and there and it wont fall apart.
@karamarouge "my laptop also has a bunch of useless software and bits and pieces " That is useless software which you will you have added. However, it came with a fully functioning operating system as part of the design. You can't remove the operating system without making your laptop totally useless.
The keys you don't use are irrelevant as they won't blow up your computer through lack of use. On the other hand the appendix is a potential killer for ALL of us that still have one.
@pilgrimpater i asked you a question before if you understand a thing about computing and you said you didnt. This useless software just like the appendix can be exploited by viruses and completely mess up the operating system and killing my computer. Same with the appendix. The act of bursting is not what kills you its the after effects. And you wrong about other accessories. The camera and microphone wires can cause a short killing the whole laptop.
@karamarouge "i asked you a question " I missed but now answered. Good example of a design fault. You miss the point horriblt. Computers are not designed with a virus but all humans are "designed" with a potentially deadly appendix. You are comparing apples with pears.
"The camera and microphone wires can cause a short killing the whole laptop." Again, not designed to. Besides a mic has a use, the appendix hasn't but it's evolutionary past has. So many clues supporting Evolution.
Is a dragon fly amazing? Yes! Is it related to humans? It seems a perfect design that does not change much at all. If it is an ancestor of mine why don't I fly. LOL
jamesrking1 1 week ago
This is a great video and all, but i still don't see how this helps creation, since "it evolved" can be used against it. Not that evolution is right. (yes, bold statement)
dmd356 3 months ago
@assym2006 science crap
Eltsacwenify 3 months ago in playlist CREATION VS. EVOLUTION
Such great thought put into the design of the humble dragonfly. On the other hand the design is not too hot on the showpiece of creation i.e. humans with curvature of the spine, heart defects, menstruation pains, still borns, siamese twins, cancer, blindness, inability to create the vital vitamin C, wisom teeth, transgenderism, many diseases to numerous to list.
Thankfully, we have moved on from the "it's complicated so god must have done it" days.
pilgrimpater 3 months ago
@pilgrimpater So your argument here is that because something is imperfect in your view, it cant have been made by an intelligent being, it has to have evolved?
My car breaks down, the tires wear out, the paint fades, I have to refuel it all the time, add oil, it gets scratched or dented. Therefore my car must have surely evolved from the first ford ever built. This is the logic you are employing right?
PS..I am not a xtian. (let me cut off your typical parroted answer first)
karamarouge 2 months ago
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pilgrimpater 2 months ago
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@karamarouge Your car analogy is poor. You are talking about wear & tear of moving parts & not the actual design. Wear & tear happens to every organism & happens to every car even a Rolls Royce. This is totally different to design where a badly designed car is disfunctional from the start. If people are designed then the designer is responsible for numerous cock ups. It only makes any sense under Evolution. P.S. Couldn't give a stuff if you ae Xtian, Muslim or Atheist.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Oh well then let me tell you about a laptop I bought from Dell some time back. The Dvd player didnt work, two of the usb ports were damaged and didnt function. The software was poorly installed. The laptop got viruses all the time.
That is not wear and tear thats how it came from the factory. So I guess it must have evolved from the abacus or something.
No matter how you put it your logic is just plain nonsense. There is no other way to put it!
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge Was your Dell designed badly or did the quality control procedures at manufacturing fail? Either way this says nothing about design because the vast majority of laptops, including Dells, are well designed. They have to be else they go out of business. However, looking at humans we ALL suffer from the same poor "design" faults.Design makes no sense but thisd is exactly what would be predicted of evolution.
Your "logic" is fatally flawed. A Design fault maybe?
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater lol...this is getting funnier by the post. The vast majority of laptops are well designed? Well sir the vast majority of humans are well designed. They dont have 4 arms and birth defects etc. Humans all suffer from the same design faults? All laptops suffer from the same design faults. They crash, catch viruses. battery runs out, they are too big and bulky, they cant make coffee. (see that is my own personal perception of design flaws. just like yours about humans.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge Indeed it get's funnier. We don't have 4 arms because that would give us 6 limbs and we would be unique within our phylum. But what we do have is an appendix that can be removed with no detrimental effect yet if retained has the potential to burst causing instant death. This applies to ALL humans whereas differing makes of laptop can have differing design faults (btw the viruses are in the software).
They can't make coffee but neither can my Missus.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Wait one second, you think all humans will die from the horrible bursting appendix if it is not removed? Or is this just a risk? Kind of how any laptops can get fried and die and instant death if there is a power surge? hmm? Does that mean laptops evolved?
Did you say viruses are in the software? You dont know much about computers do you?
Say what you will but the fact is that your perceived design flaws of the human body are not arguments against a designer.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Wait one second, you think all humans will die from the horrible bursting appendix if it is not removed? Or is this just a risk? Kind of how any laptops can get fried and die and instant death if there is a power surge? hmm? Does that mean laptops evolved?
Did you say viruses are in the software? You dont know much about computers do you?
Say what you will but the fact is that your perceived design flaws of the human body are not arguments against a designer.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "you think all humans will die from the horrible bursting appendix if it is not removed? " Pay attention. I didn't say that. Indeed it is a risk. A risk that we have no control over and a risk placed there solely by this unprovable & imaginary designer.
Don't be silly, vuruses are totally to pertianing to software unless you want to count taking a hammer to your hardware as a virus. Just disable your Anti virus software if you don't believe me.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Yes and the risk of a short circuit exists potentially for every computer ever designed. A risk put there by the designer. So is the potential for a critical viral infection that can wipe out all the data and kill the computer. Through avenues, (software, ports etc)
that were put there by the designer.
Again. Perceived flaws are not evidence for lack of an intelligent designer.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Yes and the risk of a short circuit exists potentially for every computer ever designed" True but again it is not part of the design. The circuitry is vital for the running of the computer and a short is a risk worh taking and indeed extremely rare (else the punters would not risk owning computers).
The appendix on the other hand has a vital function in other mammals but this function is not necessary for humans. So why put in this potential time bomb?
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Again your argument is absurd. The microphone on a computer is not vital. Yet it can be the cause of a short circuit! And the potential for a short circuit is every bit part of the design of the computer. Parts that transmit electricity were used, just as the appendix which also has a use in humans (google that). Those parts can cause a short circuit and were put there by design not by accident just like the appendix.
Your argument is still flawed!
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "The microphone on a computer is not vital. " It fulfils a function. If YOU want that function YOU buy & add it to your computer. Again it isn't designed to kill. "Parts that transmit electricity were used," Because without electricity it can't work. No potential fatal short circuits are designed.
"the appendix which also has a use in humans" Not it's original use & it can still be removed with no ill effect unlike electricity in your pc. Your analogy is flawed.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Likewise the appendix fulfils a function. And again the appendix was not designed to kill apparently just like the mic. I dont see how you make such a silly disjointed argument that the appendix is not like electricity in the computer. Be a man and compare it to the mic just like I posted. Enough of these silly cheap parlor tricks you play, trying to make silly comparisons that no one is alluding to to hide the obvious flaw in your logic!
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Likewise the appendix fulfils a function." Yes but it is not a vital function and it is not the same function as with our evolutionary cousins (i.e. breaking down cellulose in a raw vegeabtle diet). So it makes sense under evolution but not under design.
"Enough of these silly cheap parlor tricks you play," It's yor analogy that is found wanting.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater No...you pretty much lied when you made the bogus comparison between electricity in a laptop and the appendix yet because you knew your argument falls apart if you stuck with my analogy, which was the Mic on the the laptop. That was the cheap and rather shallow parlor trick attempt on your part
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge Sorry but it is absoluteley clear and it is certainly a cowardly and cheap trick to label me as a liar just because i don't fall for your poor analogy.
It's simple.
No electricity= No laptop. Which is equivalent to No Blood = No Human BUT Totally different to, No Appendix = perfectly functioning human being.
I am amazed that you cannot grasp this simple point.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater but the comparison was to a microphone on the laptop! NOT THE ELECTRICITY. THIS IS WHY YOU ARE A LIAR!
MICROPHONE IS TO LAPTOP AS APPENDIX IS TO HUMAN!!!!
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "MICROPHONE IS TO LAPTOP AS APPENDIX IS TO HUMAN!!"
Sorry to labour the point but you don't quite get it.
Electricity is equivalent to the blood i.e. necessary for the object to function even in it's most basic form.
The microphone is a peripheral device that you have the choice to implement (and it is designed not to blow up the rest of the PC) whereas we have no choice but to start out with the potentially fatal appendix. You failing to comprehend makes me no liar.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater So what is your argument that the choice of what peripherals you choose or not choose determines the existence of the designer? What difference does it make if I chose the mic. or not? Does a creator seize to exist because he apparently gave us no choice in what parts we want or dont want? What kind of logic is this.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge I make no correllation between periphereals & a "designer". I merely described YOUR analogy of a MIc as a peripheral in that it is your choice whether you add it or not. You have no choice. The Mic is something that you ADD to improve your computer but the appendix you SUBTRACT to continue your life.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater May be some one should explain to you the use of the appendix because to this point I dont think you get it. The appendix is key to development of the human immune system. In fetuses it produces important biogenic compounds important for biological control mechanisms. It has several safeguards to protect it from infection but like the mic, even the best safeguards in any designed system can and do fail.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "May be some one should explain to you the use of the appendix " Maybe someone should explain it's use in other mammals. It is vital for breaking down cellulose. Humans cannot break down cellulose so obviously our appendix can no longer fulfil this function. You can argue all you like about other functions but these cannot be vital else no surgeon would ever carry out an appendix remova operation.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater To further cement how silly your argument is. in the USA 300,000 appendectomies are carried out. 60-80% of those are not even necessary. There are over 311 million people. So appendectomies are carried out on about 0.1 of the population.
If any designed product had such a failure rate, the designer and consumer would be much pleased with it! Shit that means over 99% of the use population dont ever have to worry about appendicitis.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge CONTD.
To avoid wasting my time please do a google search on the necessity of appendectomies before you respond to the FACT that majority of them have been deemed unecessary. It seems some real scientists found valid proof that the appendix was indeed designed to wither infection and return to normal function without killing its owner. (or bursting and releasing bacteria that ultimately kills the person to be specific.)
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "It seems some real scientists found valid proof that the appendix was indeed designed to wither infection "
Yes this is all very god but you don't seem to be able to absorb two simple facts.
1) It can be removed with no adverse effect.
2) It can kill you if not removed.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater" 2) It can kill you if not removed." Once again you are an individual who is not afraid of telling out right lies on a public forum to advance pseudo science.
The appendix will not kill you if not removed! 99.9% of the world population actually live happy health lives with their appendices intact and un removed.
Enough with the silly lies. You are putting science to shame with these myths and exaggerations.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "Once again you are an individual who is not afraid of telling out right lies on a public forum to advance pseudo science."
Such a liar that i personally know two otherwise fit people having to be rushed to hospital in the middle of the night with burst appendix in order to have their lives saved.
Some Lie. Some crap "design".
You still don't get it. Both the heart and appendix can kill you. The difference is that the former is vital & the latter is not.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@karamarouge "So appendectomies are carried out on about 0.1 of the population."
I suspect a smaller proportion of people are killed by being run over, so hey, jay walking on the motorway is a good idea. i in a 1000 is quite frightening. I'm relatively happy to have a computer that has a 1 in 1000 chance of failure but a device in my body? Sorry, i want better odds than that. Considering it's vestigial use, this cannot possibly be the result of a designer.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater "Sorry, i want better odds than that. Considering it's vestigial use"
Once again comprehension fails and logic seems to be completely lacking.
Your needs or wants are not the standards by which the world determines design.
Your failure to understand that the appendix is not a vestigial organ as proven by real scientists is something I will not waste my time trying to further educate you on. It seems I am wasting my time talking to some one with a hatred for FACTS.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Your needs or wants are not the standards by which the world determines design." I want evidence that any "designer" is competent. Without that evidence and confidence then everything points to at worse (for you), no designer or at best a totally incompetent designer and if the latter it cannot be god. Add to that our genetic history as revealed by molecular biology then we are obsviously looking at a vestige from the evolutionary process.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
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@pilgrimpater "Your needs or wants are not the standards by which the world determines design." I want evidence that any "designer" is competent.
But you have been given plenty of this evidence. You refused to accept it. I did see where you constantly argue that the appendix is a vestigial device despite the fact that you yourself have said you have read peer reviewed papers from scientists saying it indeed has a use and is not vestigial. THAT DIDNT STOP YOU FROM LYING DID IT?
karamarouge 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater That is the correct comparison to make but you falsely changed the comparison to electricity!!
That is the cheap parlor trick on your part. I clearly picked the microphone for a reason!
Dont twist my words and then try to squeeze in electricity as though I brought it up or that its even a fair argument considering the clear comparison I made!
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "you falsely changed the comparison to electricity!!" I had to as your analogy was incorrect and forgive me if i am wrong but i think you will find that short circuits involve electricity.
"That is the cheap parlor trick on your part. " Your analogy mate. Your problem.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater No the analogy is quite correct. But because you seem to think that electricity is what causes a short circuit therefore electricity is at fault right?
Some one needs to explain to u yet again that the appendix itself does not kill! Its the germs and other septic fluids it was holding. (protecting your body organs) that r released when it bursts. That is what kills kill you not the appendix. The bacteria it is to protect you from!!
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "No the analogy is quite correct." It's not.
Designer A can build a computer in it's most basic form e.g. power source, processor, main memory, storage, screen, keyboard, operating system. Any of these missing and nothing else works (practically). Now Designer B may design the same but add a device that adds some minor unnecessary functionality but is prone to shorting out & blowing all the circuits. Whose design are you going to buy?
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@karamarouge "That is what kills kill you not the appendix." Oh please it is you who is playing word games. I'm not saying the appendix comes out and hits you on the head with a hammer. The fact is that when it bursts then without immediatte medical help, you can die. Replace Appendix with germs and septic fluids if you like but it's still the same argument of bad design.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Oh where was this freaking logic when I said the mic would cause a short that will kill the computer. You went off on some tangent about how the electricity is the one the kills the computer. Thus my analogy is exactly the same. Two peripheral parts that can be the cause of of a system wide failure.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "You went off on some tangent about how the electricity is the one the kills the computer." No i'm trying to get you to understand that there are some things that computer MUST have to operate and otheres that are not necessary (a luxury even) e.g. the mic. So WE cannot operate without blood or a heart (yes they can both fail) but we can operate WITHOUT an appendix which can kill you no matter how well you look after yourself.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Once again, the appendix does not kill. (I am getting quite tired of educating you on this). It is the infection that kills you.
And I dont see how that differentiates between any peripheral on a laptop and a "peripheral" organ for humans.
You are yet to make a clear and concise defense. Your babbling on and on about electricity has nothing to do with the fact that the mic can cause a short circuit and kill the computer.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "It is the infection that kills you." Well let's go with this. It bursts and releases infection. So it is the cause of that infection getting into your body. You trully are playimng with words here to dig yourself out of this hole that you have dug. Name anothere organ that can "burst" and put life threatening infection into your body.
The mic, again, YOUR analogy. Not my fault if it is a poor one.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater This is quite stupid. No the appendix is not the cause of the infection getting into your body. That is about as stupid as stupid gets and the more you post the move evident it becomes that you are an idiot that does not understand science at all. Bacteria actually enter your body through a multitude of ways, through your mouth, nose, eyes, skin etc. ARe you so stupid that you think bacteria teleport to the appendix?
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "the move evident it becomes that you are an idiot that does not understand science at all. "
No need to embarrass yourself like this with such childish rants.
I really don't understand the point that you make about bacteria entering the human body. Of course they do but also many bacteria are there from day one & vital such as those that aid digestion. The bacteria in the appendix cannot be vital if it can be removed with no ill effect.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater My calling you and idiot is not a childish rant it is the very accurate description of your pathetic understanding of biology. Now like a fool you post more proof of your own stupidity.
The good bacteria in the appendix are not the ones that cause death if released into the abdomen you ignoramus. You dont want me to call you an idiot then refrain from making idiotic statements.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@pilgrimpater My calling you and idiot is not a childish rant it is the very accurate description of your pathetic understanding of biology. Now like a fool you post more proof of your own stupidity.
The good bacteria in the appendix are not the ones that cause death if released into the abdomen you ignoramus. You dont want me to call you an idiot then refrain from making idiotic statements.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater The stomach you dumbass!!! a perforation in the stomach lining will lead to the very same peronitis that will kill you when your appendix burst.
For crying out loud kid stop arguing about issues you obviously do not understand!
This arguments you are making a just plain stupid! I am playing with words? I am not the one doing something as stupid as blaming a body organ for getting infected!
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "The stomach you dumbass!!! a perforation in the stomach lining will lead to the very same peronitis that will kill you when your appendix burst."
The stomach is necessary. We can't live without a stomach (well not a normal life anyway) but we can, and many do, live without the appendix. So why put it there just so it can be infected and kill you?
Hint, if you dispense with your childish rants then you may be able to fit more into each comment.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "You went off on some tangent about how the electricity is the one the kills the computer." No i'm trying to get you to understand that there are some things that computer MUST have to operate and otheres that are not necessary (a luxury even) e.g. the mic. So WE cannot operate without blood or a heart (yes they can both fail) but we can operate WITHOUT an appendix which can kill you no matter how well you look after yourself.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater And I will state my argument again so you cant obfuscate or try to twist my words. You can remove an appendix from a human and the human will survive. U can remove the mic and the laptop will still work! The appendix has the potential to kill you and the mic has the potential to kill the laptop as well!
Now will u argue that because the laptop mic can cause a short and destroy the laptop that it evolved?
Dont try and twist my words again!
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "And I will state my argument again" No need to repeat it. I fully understand & i've found numerous flaws with it. If you can't address my points then refering back to your initial claim will not suffice.
Can you not understand that you have no choice to have an appendix but you DO have a choice to own a mic (i bought mine 4 years after my PC).
Safeguards are designed into the mic but not in the appendix which is a lottery.
Rarely is a mic short fatal. Appendix fail is
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Again you make one of your unscientific made up facts.No safeguards are designed into the appendix? Is this the part where I point out the absurdity of your claim and then you pretend like it was a simple mistake and walk back these factually bogus statements? The appendix has safe guards. It doesnt just burst. What kind of nonsense is this that you are trying to pass of as science?
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "The appendix has safe guards. It doesnt just burst. "
I am not saying it is a literal explosion but of course they "burst"
I know two people who have ben rushed to hospital overnight with the condition and had they not they would have died. That's not trying to pass off something as science..
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater First you said that the appendix has no use. Then i correctly challenged that false claim and directed you to google to find several articles from scientists revealing the critical use of the appendix. Then you made silly claims that you knew this all along. (Which begs the question, why you keep making this factually wrong and inconsistent statements) Are you this desperate to get your argument ahead?
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "First you said that the appendix has no use." It harbours useful bacteria but so do other parts. These other parts cannot necessarily be removed but the appendix can because it's ORIGINAL use is now redundant. So yes it has no use. Now who is playing parlour games? If it can be removed with NO adverse effect then it is not necessary.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater I will say again no i can not understand what my choice has to do with anything. The mic came built into the laptop. I didnt have a choice about it. It can be the source of a short that can kill the whole laptop. How does my choice (in this case none existant have to do with whether my laptop was designed or not)
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "The mic came built into the laptop." You know fully well that we are discussing optional extras. Of course some computers come with a built in Mic but we are talking about peripherals that can be added later. It doesn't have to be a mic but a mic is being used just for the sake of argument. If you want then why not change mic to scanner/printer. It makes no difference.
Bottom line is you don't design in a removable part that if not removed will blow up your computer.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater "Bottom line is you don't design in a removable part that if not removed will blow up your computer." Logical reasoning seems to be the problem here. The mic, just like the appendix does not kill!
You are now making up stories that the appendix will kill you if not removed. That is another lie I am yet catching you in.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Logical reasoning seems to be the problem here. " If you insist on nipicking then replace the word "will" with "can". You know full well the point i was making.
"You are now making up stories that the appendix will kill you if not removed. " Your comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired. The appendix which can be removed with no adverse effect (i.e. is not vital) has the potential to kill you if not removed (as the "designer" intended). Is that clearer?
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater "The appendix which can be removed with no adverse effect (i.e. is not vital) has the potential to kill you if not removed (as the "designer" intended). Is that clearer?"
It is clearer but this tortured logic. How do you know the intention of the designer? ARe you able to communicate with him in some manner that some of us are not aware of?
The designer made the appendix for a specific reason. It can suffer infection just like every other part of the body.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "How do you know the intention of the designer? "
a) There is no evidence of a designer b) even if designed, it is still a bad design even if do nnot know the intentions. The uintentions are irrelevent when a design fault can kill me.
"ARe you able to communicate with him "
a) I cannot communicate with that which has no evidence for it's existence b) "HE"??
"It can suffer infection just like every other part of the body." So definately not needed.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater No no you dont get to this. This is may analogy not yours. You dont get to decide for me what peripheral parts are in my laptop. My laptop came with a mic and other parts that I had no choice but to buy along with it! CASE CLOSED!
I am the one who presented the built in mic i will appreciate it if you dont go out of you way to corrupt my analogy so that it fits your logic.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "This is may analogy not yours" Maybe you should have chosen a better one. Bottom line does not change. You do not design in something that is not necessary for the functioning of the body while that something has the capacity to kill you. Compare this to the heart which can fail (& that's more often than not to do with lifestyle) yet is absolutely vital. That is why i refer to the appendix & not the heart. Your analogy is poor anyway.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
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@pilgrimpater "Bottom line does not change. You do not design in something that is not necessary for the functioning of the body while that something has the capacity to kill you"
But the mic on my laptop is not necessary for the functioning of the computer but it also has the capacity to kill it as well.
It is a very appropriate analogy. Very appropriate you are yet to explain why it is not. (or yeah that tortured logic about electricity was your retort..lol)
karamarouge 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Once again, the appendix does not kill you.. I repeat, the appendix, does not kill you. Just like if a mosquito bites you, its not your skin that kills you because that was the entry point for the organism that killed ya.
Once again, educate yourself on the biology of the human body so you dont make silly statements. Any system once infected by outside agents can be destroyed by those agents.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Once again, the appendix does not kill you"
Once again it does kill you if it bursts. What do you want me to say? That the appendix grabs a gun and shoots you? You are playing word games now because the appendix DOES kill if it bursts. The Mosquito is another crap analogy because it is an external fact or not designed as part of your body from day one.
I do not need to understand the appendix more than a i do a magnum to know that they kill. All i get is word games.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Whats worse yet, many american industries have indeed designed very many products with optional features that have the potential to kill you and did indeed kill people. This goes to show your basic understanding of industry and technology. There are so so many products from heaters, to hair dryers etc etc. That is a really worthless argumet from you.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge lets see the erroneous stuff that you have posted so far.
Appendix-IT IS NOT VESTIGIAL.
Mic on laptop- I didnt have choice whether to have it or not.
both can be removed with no adverse effect on system.
One relies on electricity, the other blood.
What exact argument are you trying to make here. Because all your excuses seem to be illogical tortured arguments.
Can you be specific and explain your position.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@CONTD.
Your explanation regarding electricity is irrelevant information that has nothing to do with this argument.
Your argument about choice is also irrelevant.
What exactly is your argument. Explain it in clear logical terms based in fact.
(ie..screaming like a young child that the appendix is vestigial is just silly and childish because all scientists now acknowledge that it is NOT)
So please stop that childish nonsense. It is shameful and proves you wont accept facts.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "What exactly is your argument. Explain it in clear logical terms based in fact."
How many more times? It is so simple.
1) The appendix can be removed with absolutely no adverse effect and hence is unnecessary.
2) It has the potential to kill (or to satisfy your word games the potential to burst and start a chain reaction that can cause death).
All your analogies and wanting me to become a world authority on the appendix don't detract from this as bad "design".
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Appendix-IT IS NOT VESTIGIAL."
It is. For those creatures that still have it, it is used to process cellulose. WE can't do that despite having an appendix, so since it doesn't fulfil it's ORIGINAL function, it is vestigial.
"Mic on laptop- I didnt have choice whether to have it or not."
Originally you inferred that you added it. Make your mind up.
If it does short and kill you then that is bad design. See the similarity?
Electric/blood. Both vital. The appendix isn't.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater This argument is really getting stupid. Its like I am talking to a 4 year old that is just plain stupid. The appendix in humans is not vestigial. REAL SCIENTISTS HAVE PROVEN THIS!. Arguing with you on this is like trying to convince a fool that the world is not flat.
If you are dumb and want to continue arguing like a daft child then do so. But I will not waste my time trying to convince some illiterate idiot of scientific fact.
I 4get which one of supports science
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "This argument is really getting stupid."
"Its like I am talking to a 4 year old that is just plain stupid. "
"If you are dumb and want to continue arguing like a daft child then do so"
I would prefer you offered some relevant points rather than such childish rants.
Who are these REAL scientists that have proven the appendix is not vestigial? B because most believe it is? Why does it process cellulose in other animals but not in us?
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Um no. No where did I post that I added the mic. you are now making up crap because you realize that your argument based on choice is just silly.
And lets not get hangup on what you think I said, The fact is many laptops and other appliances come with peripheral features that can lead to a system wide collapse without the consumer opting for them.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "The fact is many laptops and other appliances come with peripheral features" And they do something useful that if you take them away then that useful action can no longer be fulfilled i.e. you've lost some functionality.
On the other hand, you can remove the appendix & no functionality of the human body is lost. Add to this that it has the potential to kill you then you are left with crap "design" (assuming you could ever prove design in the first place).
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE MAKING IDIOTIC STATEMENTS BASED ON YOUR IGNORANCE OF SCIENCE. The removal of the appendix leaves one body more vulnerable to infection via the intestinal track. But I guess because you are mentally retarded to some extent and cant simple google the use of the appendix to avoid making such scientifically innaccurate statements, I shall have to repeat this about 20 times before in sinks into your un-educated mind.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@pilgrimpater ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE MAKING IDIOTIC STATEMENTS BASED ON YOUR IGNORANCE OF SCIENCE. The removal of the appendix leaves one body more vulnerable to infection via the intestinal track. But I guess because you are mentally retarded to some extent and cant simple google the use of the appendix to avoid making such scientifically innaccurate statements, I shall have to repeat this about 20 times before in sinks into your un-educated mind.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "with optional features that have the potential to kill you and did indeed kill people"
Two points here. 1. OPTIONAL features (the appendix isn't). 2. Yes that's bad design too (which is the whole point i am making)..
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Bad design is still design! However awful it may be! It is still designed. Artist Nelly Furtado has very bad music in my opinion that does not change the fact that a human wrote it and that there is no process in nature that can write the same bad songs.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "Bad design is still design!" True, but nobody has ever proven design and the worse the "design" then the more difficult that elusive task becomes. Certainly if it was "design" but bad "design" then the designer cannot be claimed as a god (just so you know).
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater AGain it does not matter whether is optional or not, that has absolutely nothing to do with determining whether it was designed or not.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "AGain it does not matter whether is optional or not,"
It does matter if you are cursed with something that can potentially kill you in a matter of hours only to know that it was never necessary in the first place.
If that is "design" then the Designer(s) must be the most incompetent prick(s) imaginable.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Yes he may be the most incompetent prick imaginable in your small mind. But he is still the designer and the system just like my laptop was indeed designed. Especially being that you have not designed or created a human life that is apparently immune to infection or any system that is eternal for that matter and violates the 3rd law of thermodynamics.
FOR THE LAST TIME DESIGN IS STILL DESIGN AND IS NOT DETERMINED BY THE YOUR FEEBLE MENTAL PERCEPTIONS.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Yes he may be the most incompetent prick imaginable in your small mind. "
One sentence & 3 baseless aassumptions with no evidence
1) That life or anything in the narural world was designed
2) It was just one designer
3) You apply a gender to it
Just because your laptop was designed (by a many) it doesn't mean that nature was..
Wha' the 3rd Law to do with what we are discussing here? Do you actually know what it is? I doubt it. Design is only design when it is design.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater There is plent of evidence that the natural world was designed. From the coded language of DNA to the fine tuning of the universe. Evidence that science to this day can not explain but with arguments about how they may not have answers but god didnt do it.
Your other points are just stupid. Refering to god as he/she/them or it takes or adds absolutely nothing to the argument.
But I did say are stupid and you prove me right again.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge Who said DNA was a code (even if the term is used to simplify understanding)? It is no more a code than the number of protons in a nucleus determining the identity of an element. You are making one hell of a leap of faith
Who said the universe was fine tuned? Exploding stars, Black holes, colliding galaxies, Earth threatening asteroids etc are anything but fine tuning.
I still want to know why you apply a gender to your imaginary god. Does it have a penis?
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater"Who said DNA was a code" This is the stupidity I have been talking about from you. Total unabashed ignorance of science.
Ever geneticist even molecular biologist every biologist who has ever written on DNA refers to it as code so much so that its information can be mathematically measured.
Then your incredibly stupid question about the fine tuning of the universe? Son thats why universal laws of physics exist.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Ever geneticist even molecular biologist every biologist who has ever written on DNA refers to it as code "
Yet none of them say it is designed code no more than they say quarks are pieces of code. Yet again wishful thinking.
"Son thats why universal laws of physics exist."
If these laws didn't exist then others would.
The universe (& even the Earth) is hostile to life so what is it's purpose?
Earth threatening Asteroids,Natural Disasters are Fine Tuned? Really?
T
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater I dont care if they dont say it was designed. The fact is that you stated that DNA is not code. And every single living scientist clearly refers to it as code.
That is a statement from your ignorance of science.
Dont try to forment a new argument because you have been exposed.
If the laws and constants that govern the universe were different then life wouldnt exist.
But then again, I guess you didnt know that did you?
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "And every single living scientist clearly refers to it as code."
Yet these very same scientists never attribute this "code" to a designer. It's not code in the sense of that written by a software engineers. We know that the code alters via every single generation from parent to child. Where is the "designer" there?
"If the laws and constants that govern the universe were different then life wouldnt exist." You mean life as we know it but A universe would still exist.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater So what there are natural disasters, or earth threatening asteriods.
Last I checked humanity is still doing quite fine. We are still here and increasing every day.
Like i said before until you design a universe free from all the "perils" you perceive earth to be in. you should really shut up and stop making idiotic statements as though there is something better to which you are comparing earth to.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "So what there are natural disasters, or earth threatening asteriods."
Don't forget the diseases and epidemics. Seems rather stupid to spend all that time fine tuning the WHOLE universe so that humans can live in the tiniest speck imaginable within that universe, yet place all human life under such dreadful perils as if a lottery Madness.
"We are still here and increasing every day." And screwing billions of years of biodiversity into oblivion. What a Grand Design.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater lastly and just as important. The phrase Fine tuning does not refer to natural disasters or asteroids. That is just your ignorance speaking. Fine tuning argument refers to certain universal physics constants.
Try and educate yourself about a topic before you run your mouth. Like how you just made a fool of yourself talking about DNA code like a semi-literate fool who to this date is unaware that it is code
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Fine tuning argument refers to certain universal physics constants."
Exactly. Well done & if any of the constants were different we'd have a different universe but we'd still have a universe. We could even have life based on those different constants albeit totally alien to ours. We don't even know how many universes there.
Why go to the effort of fixing constants while making life so damned perilous? It makes absolutely no sense if you bother to think about it.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Nope we would not have universe you dumbass!! Jesus christ you can say the dumbest things I have seen an atheist say. If the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off, then there would be no planets, no stars go galaxies. Only an idiot would think life possible in such an environment. Only a fool so stupid would claim such without any proof. (actually a person steeped in some kind of insane religion could claim such faith based nonsense without any proof at all
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Nope we would not have universe you dumbass!! " You can never grasp the point can you. Take any law that involves constants. Change the constants & you change the law but what do have is another law & a totally different universe. Why assume there should be galaxies?
"If the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off," Well these (& neutrons) DO vary. That's why you get different elements & isotopes.
Btw i cannot be steeped in religion if i don't have one.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater No its you who has a problem grasping the simplest of things. It is not the universe alone we who make the fine tuning argument refer to. Its the ability to support life.
Now tell me again how would life exist without energy? the sun? what exactly would it be composed of..Let me guess you have no clue. You are just making claims based on what exactly? nothing? Nothing that can be seen, tested or falsified.(in other words faith alone. THAT IS YOUR RELIGION! SHEESH!)
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "It is not the universe alone we who make the fine tuning argument refer to. Its the ability to support life." The abiliy to support life? To what end? Life is perilous at best. If life was fine tuned there would be no death, no killing. Why design life just to give it a shelf life? Why make life debilitating diseases? Why allow parasites make their hosts's lives a misery? Some utterly crap design. Some utterly crap designer.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater "he abiliy to support life? To what end? Life is perilous at best. If life was fine tuned there would be no death, no killing."
I think I am just gonna quote the incredibly dumb shit you say every time you post.
Seriously you think this in an argument? This is dumb shit retards from arkansas would respond with.
lol..Fine tuning of life.. Who the fuck said anything about fine tuning life. What the hell is a fine tuned life anyway? WTF are you talking about..
lmao
karamarouge 2 months ago
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pilgrimpater 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "I think I am just gonna quote the incredibly dumb shit you say every time you post."
That's because you have run out of baseless slogans and bullshit.
"Who the fuck said anything about fine tuning life. "
You did when i pointed out that the universe cannot be fine tuned. In other words you changed your tune or should i say fine tune?
Anyhow it appears that you have no answers which is a shame because you are the one making the claims.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@karamarouge For a supposedly intelligent person, you sure do curse alot. It subracts from all your arguments. We want to see how eloquently you can support your position not how vilely you can curse someone out. Read all your responses then hang your head in shame.
cybanet 1 month ago
@cybanet Fuck off..(hangin my head high)
karamarouge 1 month ago
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@karamarouge "Now tell me again how would life exist without energy? the sun? " I never claimed life could exist without energy. Your comprehension skills get worse.
Btw bacteria thrive in Hydrothernal Vents with no input from the sun & likewise extremophiles in deep caves by living off minerals.
"You are just making claims based on what exactly?" I make no claims of what another universe would be like. I only claim that if the constants were different then so would the universe.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater "If the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off," Well these (& neutrons) DO vary. That's why you get different elements & isotopes."
Now people, when I call people retarded, I am called rude and abrasive. This man has just been told that the ratio or protons to electrons in the universe is constant.
And look at the incrediblyidiotic stupid response he comes back with..Seriously, you sound dumber than Miss Arkansas for saying something this stupid.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "If the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off,"
Well you didn't clarify that you were talking about the whole universe but big deal so what? If you are claiming that protons & electrons can neither be created nor destroyed then that statement is bleeding obvious. As well as brushing up on your poor comprehension skills maybe you could also learn to clarify your statements. That way, hopefully we can avoid confusion.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Yes you dumbass I clarified it. It is written crystal clearly in my post! I specifically said the universe.
And there is no other possible interpretation one could have about my statement in regards to the fine tuning of the universe.
Only a dumbass idiot who is pretending to know what the hell they are talking about could respond with such a monumentally stupid retort.
As I have said before. You have proven your ignorance beyond a shadow of a doubt to every one.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "I clarified it. It is written crystal clearly in my post! I"
This is what you wrote originally where you claim is so "crystal clear" (as mud).
"If the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off, then there would be no planets, no stars go galaxies " i.e. you made no clarification of this ration being based upon the totals of each within the universe. That's the trouble when you pick sound bites & slogans from creotard sites. Your communication skills are dire.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater I will advise you one last time. Before posting something monumentally boneheaded and indicative of the level of ignorance you have, freaking use google.
ITS FUCKING EASY. USE GOOGLE DUMBASS. TYPE IN "RATIO OF PROTONS TO ELECTRONS IN THE UNIVERSE"
I promise you that will get so much info on the subject you wont make such stupid statements in your responses.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "ITS FUCKING EASY. USE GOOGLE DUMBASS. TYPE IN "RATIO OF PROTONS TO ELECTRONS IN THE UNIVERSE""
Yes but what is the relevance? How does that prove with a different ratio, we would have no universe at all? OK to help you grasp this point let's go into cat sat on the mat mode. Take equation x=c*y where c is a constant.
Plot a graph with c=1. Now change c=2 and replot. You will get a totally different graph but you still get a graph. Do you get it now?
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater let me list of the number of dumb and ignorant statements you have made.
-Appendix is vestigial. (WRONG)
-Appendix has no use (WRONG)
-Appendix will kill you if not removed (WRONG)
-Appendix will kill you if it bursts. (WRONG, bacterial infection kills you not organ)
-No other organ will kill you if it bursts. (WRONG)
-DNA is not code (WRONG)
And that incredibly stupid and incomprehensible gibberish about ratio of protons to electrons (man that is stupid has hell.)
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "let me list of the number of dumb and ignorant statements you have made."
Let me highlight & correct your abysmal comprehension skills.
The Appendix IS vestigial. It no longer has the original use that it has in other animals.
The appendix does have a use but not it's original use & nor a critical use.
The appendix only has the POTENTIAL to kill you if not removed. It can be removed with no adverse effect.
It is inflamation of the appendix that causes the infection.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@karamarouge Continued "let me list of the number of dumb and ignorant statements"
"No other organ will kill you if it bursts. (WRONG)"
I never claimed that though i'd love you to tell me what other organs can burst.
What i said was that other organs can fail and some (most) of these are vital, unlike the appendix which can fail and kill you even though not vital.
"DNA is not code (WRONG)" I said it is not "designed" code unless you can prove otherwise but you'd be the first.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Seriously, go pick up a science book and stop wasting my time with your infantile stupidity.
I am sick and tired of holding a general science course for you and guiding you to what the hell science is all the while you make these stupid comments.
honestly I am done with your stupidity. I will proudly say you are simply too stupid for me to argue with any more.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "Seriously, go pick up a science book and stop wasting my time with your infantile stupidity."
You would be the last person from whom anyone would take advice on science.
"I am sick and tired of holding a general science course for you"
Sorry i must have missed it.
What you need to do is to brush up on your abysmal comprehension skills and understand what you are being told, even if you disagree.
There is a limit as to how long i can tolerate an hysterical fool.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Nope we would not have universe you dumbass!! " We would but not in the form that we recognise. You seem to be inferring the only alternative to our universe is nothing. How?
"if the ratio of protons to electrons was just a bit off, then there would be no planets, no stars go galaxies." I never claimed otherwise but you cannot be sure. How do you arrive at this?
"Only an idiot would think life possible in such an environment. " Again you assume life as we know it.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
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@pilgrimpater What makes you think that the creator had you in mind when he created the universe? What makes you think that your opinion of life being perilous even matters.
the 7 billion people on earth and growing would indicate that human life is doing quite well in spite of the perils you allege are wiping us out.
How do we know that the creators intentions were? You make the silly assumptions about what his intentions could/should have been.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater U wont get me into a stupid argument about gods gender.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the obvious in nature.
You can keep trying but I guarantee you I will stick to the design argument
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "U wont get me into a stupid argument about gods gender."
It's you who insists on applying a gender to it. As i said "does it have a penis?".
"It has absolutely nothing to do with the obvious in nature."
What is "obvious" in nature is that it is cruel and heartless and obviously the result of a cold evolutionary process.
"You can keep trying but I guarantee you I will stick to the design argument"
I'd already sussed that you are totally close minded.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater At least one thing is for sure your 3 points were all rubbish!!!
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "At least one thing is for sure your 3 points were all rubbish!!!"
Yet you cannot address them and tell me why.
More conformation of your refusal or your inability to listen to objections to your carved in stone beliefs.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater I will not waste my time addressing my reference to the creator as one or the gender because it is rubbish. A stupid argument designed to dodge the fact that you are losing.
They have absolutely no baring whatsoever on the discussion. thats why they are rubbish that is why I wont waste my time on them.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "I will not waste my time addressing my reference to the creator as one or the gender because it is rubbish. "
Indeed. So why do you do it. All you have argued for here is design. Even though you cannot prove design, you make the giant blind leap of claiming there is only one designer and of the male gender at that. I am merey intrigued as to how you arrive at this comclusion. I think it is relevant to the discussion if you want to provide some sort of evidence.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater On the day you or any other creationist do design the "perfect human" or show existence of the so called perfect human then we can have something to compare our human life with and indeed agree that there is a better human design out there. (not just in your feeble mind.)
Since we are the only examples of humans around your perception that we are imperfect is just plain stupid! My laptop can be badly designed because there are many to compare it to. NONE FOR HUMANS.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "On the day you or any other creationist do design the "perfect human" " You're already communicating with the perfect human being i.e. me.
Of course human "design" will improve, as we are still evolving (but unnatural selection by us could negate this). Oh btw i am not a creationist.
"our perception that we are imperfect is just plain stupid!" The useless but potentially lethal appendix is but one example in a long line of poor "design" features. I'd have done better.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater And until you can prove that you know the intentions of the designer, If you cant prove that he did not mean to build the whole human body with all its vulnerabilities and capabilities then your argument is just plain stupid. If you can prove to us that his goal was to build an invulnerable superman like being then you win the argument.
BUT YOU CANT. CAN YOU?
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "And until you can prove that you know the intentions of the designer,"
A totally redundant challenge as you've absolutely no evidence for a designer beyond wishful thinking.
"If you cant prove that he did not mean to build the whole human body"
Again, you provide no evidence for designer(s) & then define it/them as a "he".
How can you apply a gender to this unprovable designer? I guess it's because you can fabricate what you want.
The ball is in your court, not mine.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater "I fully understand & i've found numerous flaws with it"
You are yet specify even one flaw in my analogy that does not compare directly with the appendix. Both can be removed, both have a use, both can be the cause of a system wide failure. Where exactly is the flaw in the analogy? (Pray tell you wont leap back to that electricity nonsense, as though you are still unaware that the appendix is not the cause of death it is bacteria.)
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Both can be removed, both have a use, both can be the cause of a system wide failure."
Only one is enforced upon you from day one and that one's "use" is not critical for any functiion whereas the one that you added layer is critical for the function for which you purchased it.
Re elecricity. Try running your computer without it. Re Mic. Your computer will operate fine without it.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater I will say again whether one is forced upon you or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was designed or not. Secondly, My mic was indeed forced upon me. I dont use it for anything whatsoever. And the appendix is critical in the development of the fetus and the development of the human immune system
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "I will say again whether one is forced upon you or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was designed or not. " Oh so the appendix may not have been designed but some line manager decided it shhould go in. In which case the whole "designer" argument goes out the window anyway (actually it does even without this topic).
"My mic was indeed forced upon me." Was your appendix forced on you? Analogy fail again.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
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@pilgrimpater "I will say again whether one is forced upon you or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was designed or not. " Oh so the appendix may not have been designed but some line manager decided it shhould go in. In which case the whole "designer" argument goes out the window anyway (actually it does even without this topic)."
What the heck does this mean? How does a sane person arrive to this conclusion?
karamarouge 2 months ago
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pilgrimpater 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "And the appendix is critical in the development of the fetus and the development of the human immune system" In what way is the appendix vital in the fetus? There are numerous other stages in the fetus that come and go (we even have a tail so presumably that is vital yet it soon disappears, well most times). But for the umpteenth time, if it is vital for the human immune system then how come you can live a totally healthy lifestyle without it?
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Whether you like it or not, it is not a scientific of even logical argument for that matter to claim that because you perceive of something as flawed or imperfect, that this automatically negates a designer. That is silly reasoning. It is not scientific it makes no sense especially since all your perceptions are made with absolutely no knowledge of the designer's intent.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "that this automatically negates a designer. " It negates an efficient and perfect designer. If this is part of design then the designer has failings and cannot be labelled god. The truth is that the vestigial (regardless of it's secondary use) ties in perfectly with an evolutionary past. There is not one single paper that has proved design "It's complicated so it must be designed" is not evidence). btw i chose the appendix as one of many "design" flaws.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater A good example is the american car industry that build various products with "planned absolescence". Designed specifically to become useless after a while due to various factors like mechanical failure so customers would come back and buy more!
Shall we now argue that all these products from these industries evolved because there is a design flaw specifically put there?
Your argument is illogical which ever way u put it!
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "A good example is the american car industry " Another crap analogy. So now you are saying we are designed to die. So how does the lootery of a burst appendix fit into this scenario? Are you saying that are lives are planned from cradle to grave? How come surgeons are allowed to remove and undermine the "designer"'s time bomb?
"Shall we now argue that all these products from these industries evolved " No they are not self replicating.
It is you who is illogical.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater REgarding the use of the appendix. before making more un-informed comments about it being useless(or not being used for its original use..whatever that means) I encourage you to google it and read several scientific articles written about it, by scientists no less.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "encourage you to google it and read several scientific articles written about it, by scientists no less. " No need to. I already know enough that the appendix and other parts of the colon harbor beneficuial bacteria. However, an individual can lead a perfectly normal life with the removal of the appendix (original use to break down cellulose) yet cannot survive without a truly vital organ such a the heart.
btw Fancy having to design in beneficial bacteria.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Again with your silly parlor tricks. Did i say a human can survive without a heart? Secondly your statement that the appendix has no use is completely false. Let us put that to rest right now!
Thirdly the argument that a person can live a normal life without an appendix is just silly. A person can live without an arm, or an eye, or ear lobes, even a nose.
That is not proof that there is no designer. Goes back to the mic on my laptop. I dont need it.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Did i say a human can survive without a heart? " No but i am making a comparison about that which is vital yet which can still fail and kill you with that which is unnecessary yet can also still kill you. Again, it's a very simple point to grasp.
"A person can live without an arm," True but an arm can never be a potential killer prior to it being removed.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater You have a questionable understanding of human anatomy and biology as a whole.
Yes sir your arm can kill you. So can your eye, your testis, every single part of your body just like the appendix can suffer from an infection and lead to your death. Every single part of your body just like the appendix is open to some kind of infection which can ultimately kill. Again you keep making these statements that have no basis in reality.
karamarouge 2 months ago
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@karamarouge "Yes sir your arm can kill you. So can your eye, your testis, every single part of your body " So an arm, eye, testis can burst to the degree that you die within a matter of hours? Infections can be cured WITHOUT removal and they are not urgent. No the appendix is akin to designing a cobra to live in your stomach that may or may not fatally bite you depending upon your luck.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@karamarouge "Yet it can be the cause of a short circuit! " No a microphone did not come with my pc. I had to buy it. Unlike my appendix where i had no choice in having this dangerous piece of equipment. If all PCs came with an exploding hard wired mic then you may have an analogy worth considering. The bottom line is that we can live without an appendixbut we are still encumbered with one.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater Oh BTW, my laptop also has a bunch of useless software and bits and pieces I can remove with no detrimental effect, like the msn messaging stuff, the games and other stuff like the monitor port, even built in camera and microphone. I can even remove a few keys that i never use and it will still function very well. (pg down key for example) heck I can even remove a few screws here and there and it wont fall apart.
Your arguments are really weak and illogical man.
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "my laptop also has a bunch of useless software and bits and pieces " That is useless software which you will you have added. However, it came with a fully functioning operating system as part of the design. You can't remove the operating system without making your laptop totally useless.
The keys you don't use are irrelevant as they won't blow up your computer through lack of use. On the other hand the appendix is a potential killer for ALL of us that still have one.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago
@pilgrimpater i asked you a question before if you understand a thing about computing and you said you didnt. This useless software just like the appendix can be exploited by viruses and completely mess up the operating system and killing my computer. Same with the appendix. The act of bursting is not what kills you its the after effects. And you wrong about other accessories. The camera and microphone wires can cause a short killing the whole laptop.
TRY AGAIN SIR
karamarouge 2 months ago
@karamarouge "i asked you a question " I missed but now answered. Good example of a design fault. You miss the point horriblt. Computers are not designed with a virus but all humans are "designed" with a potentially deadly appendix. You are comparing apples with pears.
"The camera and microphone wires can cause a short killing the whole laptop." Again, not designed to. Besides a mic has a use, the appendix hasn't but it's evolutionary past has. So many clues supporting Evolution.
pilgrimpater 2 months ago