Sam Harris vs. Robert Wright - Council for Secular Humanism conference 6/10

[bkgibson]

"There's more to life than just understanding the world, scientifically, clearly, and people need to find some way to be happy in this world."

This is the difference b/w explicitly scientific thinkers and the rest of the world. This is the crux of the problem--and the seed of the solution, if considered. How do we communicate the value of life as atheists to believers? Preaching to the choir is rewarding to us, but value lies in the communication of facts to believers in a convincing fashion.

[CzarTyush]

These are the types of debates I prefer. I hate it when two debaters just talk past one another 

[andthereisntone]

I think what Sam is getting at here is incredibly important and just as profound.

[fjoo]

lol, sam is swinging and missing, to try to get a debate going, but Wrights positions are so evasive. Sam hits over here, and Wright suddenly is over there... ;p

From what I gather is that he is a hippy who want everyone to be nice, and have a hint of the supernatural.

[jaggerlags]

@fjoo Wrights evasive because he has to be. Sam's cornering because he wants an explanation. I think I'd have to agree with Sam, Islam is the major cause of jihad. It's not poverty or other kinds of abuse, it's those things paired with Islam. Wright just thinks it might be a factor, but not the main one. Religion convinces these people and Wright won't admit it. I don't know why though, he's smart enough. It's true with gay marriage and bigotry through Christian views.

[jjhjjff]

Robert Wright is an example of a non-believer who can't stop surprising you. He's unpredictable unlike New-Atheists for example. He's more skeptic, less dogmatic, and, unlike Harris, he doesn't hold a belief.

[jaggerlags]

@jjhjjff Do you find this assessment a good thing for Wright or not?

[JarethGT]

@jjhjjff Robert Wright is just an unsure secularist who wants everyone to get along, but he doesn't realize that with people believing unjustified bullcrap that pitts one person against another, it makes it difficult (if not impossible) for people to get along.

[LightningKnee]

@rockstarcola100 Thank you, I will look into that book. I think that Wright has some serious issues with delivering his knowledge on those subjects you mentioned, wouldn't you agree? If he is not well suited for this kind of debate, I won't hold that against him. However, I am just aware of his incapability of addressing the questions that arises throughout this conversation. Also, I don't share his views on religion for a number of reasons. Bests / Lightning

[PhilosopherSY]

Sam is wrong to blame suicide bombing on Islam when the Quran condemns suicide. Al-Qaeda is a political meovement, not a religious school. Wright is correct. Terrorism is driven by politics.

[sonykroket]

@PhilosopherSY

Thats is bullshit

Its the fundamentals of islam that use politics

[FIGHTFANNERD3]

@PhilosopherSY idiot read the quran

[FIGHTFANNERD3]

@PhilosopherSY such a loser you won't let people see your channel

[shutuprafa]

One problem I have with Harris, and I'm a huge Sam Harris fan, is his unwillingness to be honest about variation within Islam. To equate Sufism with Wahabism is simply at odds with evidence. Curious to know his views of the more spiritual and mystical branches of Islam, namely Sufism and to a much lesser extent Ismailism.

[LightningKnee]

Robert Wright seems very reserved in this discussion. He has obvious problems with sticking to the point and even present his arguments in a coherent way. What does he believe? I can't wrap myself around his ideas.

[PeterK1984]

If you had a armed robber in your house Robert Wright would probably not warn you about him out of fear that calling him an armed robber might make him angry and cause him to rob and shoot you.

[Keeban3]

Damnit Harris, let him talk!

[tooclassy4most]

@ 1:09 Bob Wright says all he needs to say. Sam Harris constantly hedges his bet on whether or not criticizing islam the way he does has negative effects. He constantly says "we can have that debate' on the best way to use rhetoric in diminishing violence from Muslims. He apparently thinks calling them out for their ridiculous beliefs has better consequences than showing muslims respect and trying to moderate them like other religious groups in America.

[gyniest]

@tooclassy4most Yes, Harris does seem unsure of where the line is, exactly, and admits to shades of gray in terms of which Muslims to talk to, how to talk to them, and what to say about their articles of faith. He must realize it's an open-ended question, and far from a simple answer. But he is quite sure that someone, somewhere, should be able to openly investigate the core truth claims of the faith, and in public (at lest in America) how likely it is to be true.

[RipTheJackR]

Robert isnt being really honest in this vids timeframe (infact hes not appealing at all), but comparing north korea to afghanistan doesnt make sam look too good imho.

[gyniest]

@RipTheJackR What he should have asked Wright is: If it's elitist and insensitive to openly ridicule Muslims' beliefs (as they simply had the bad luck of being in a worse environment) then why is it ok to talk about North Korean beliefs in a similarly "insensitive" way? His answer seems to be: "what are they going to do to us"?. Wright upholds the belief that Muslims, being inherently irrational and volatile, will predictably react with violence to ridicule (and maybe have a right to be so mad).

[scruffyexaminer]

if these two agree on so much, why can't they look each other in the face for more than 1/2 a second?

[lukeism2]

Wrights arguments are so hollow.. I can't stand accomodationalists

[dorsk188]

I can understand Wright getting impatient, and even peeved with Harris' tendency to lecture rather than converse, but if I were faced with two possible options: 1) lecture to an audience about something interesting, or 2) listen to Wright's vacuous opinions on... well just about everything in these videos, I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same.

What did Wright bring to the conversation of value? Empty criticism and hand-wringing? Real intellectuals do their worrying before the debate, not during.

[dorsk188]

Wright: "Well, what are they [North Korea] going to do?" (laugh)

They have a massive standing army and nuclear weapons, what are you fucking laughing about? This disconnection from REALITY while claiming to be focused on "pragmatics" is why Wright cannot be taken seriously.

[alphacause]

Robert Wright claims that religion is a neutral medium, in that it is not good or bad (10:10 - 10:19). Wrong. Anytime your motivation to action is based on irrational and unprovable premises, which what religion is, then the ultimate result will be negative.

[Fike2308]

Sam seems scared of Robert.

[Drgamedood]

@Fike2308 LOL NO

[Fike2308]

@Drgamedood LOL YES

[Drgamedood]

@Fike2308 roberts such a pussy. he's like the annoying little kid that can't comprehend advanced mathematics. I understand why sam is so frustrated with the idiot.

[Fike2308]

@Drgamedood Maybe you should call him names so that everyone knows how superior you are ;)

[mateenmajid]

Primarily one needs a switch in perspective, for a religious person if he can accept the possibility that, he can be wrong is enough to give him the perspective to look at things differently..

the first thing that, made me think about things.. is when i heard that muslims after conquering a place where allowed to use females as slaves.. i found this unacceptable and on investigation, i found alot of other problems..

websites like secularislam, faithfreedom and others helped.

[maynordj]

DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF THESE GUYS GET PAID TO APPEAR?OR IS IT MERELY AN OPPORTUNITY TO SELL BOOKS AND NETWORK..?

[nilbud]

Ol' Sam ain't much of a philosopher and his knowledge of Humanity is sketchy at best.

[Fike2308]

@nilbud - AND HE MONOLOGUES TOO MUCH!

[smokinokun87]

Sam schooled wright. The idiot tried to make Sam feel guilty for being white and educated. I'm sorry to say, but I didn't find he had one good point.

[Fike2308]

@smokinokun87 - Sam rambled like and idiot and wouldn't let Wright answer his questions, put words in Wright's mouth, etc.....took the moderator to get Sam to shut his mouth for 2 minutes so Robert could get a few words in.

[mateenmajid]

@isisdron Everything we do, could be traced to our nature (if any).. even if "human nature" is using stories like religion for violence, why shouldn't we as humans use other stories to avoid violence, that's in our nature too..

you can perceive the criticism of Sam Harris as an effort to give reasons to people to avoid violence, or an effort to make the "violence logic" ineffective, which he is successfully doing..

so by stressing on "human nature" robert is working against his own logic..

[isisdron]

@mateenmajid I note that Robert Wright often struggles against his own logic, which is why he is easy debate prey, even if he did have some valid points to make.

[isisdron]

@isisdron I guess mateen's comment was removed, so no reply is necessary. But thanks for writing me back anyways.

[annata12]

His only valid points where points of pragmatism, in principle Sam had all the victories! He would do better in diplomacy, where you have to have a certain accommodating attitude.

[Fike2308]

@annata12 - Sam had the "victory" of rambling on and on and asking questions but not giving Wright a chance to respond....thank God the moderator was there.

[dweeper1020]

Holy crap, did Robert Wright just say, "My view is that religion is a neutral medium."? 10:05

IS HE SERIOUS? This man needs to get educated! What an absolutely outrageous thing to say.

[TheFabdulla]

The threat level is severe - meaning a terrorist attack is highly likely. This threat mainly comes from Muslims.

If this was the first few months of WWII( for argument's sake) Robert Wright would be banging on about how we in the west created the conditions for Hitler and Nazi Germany to come about - and he would be 100% right. But he would be irrelevant because the pressing question would be how to defeat Hitler not understand him.

We need to defeat aggressive Islam first not just understand it

[architect333]

sam just got burned and his rare emotional state shows it, sure religion has it's problems but what doesn't, its like saying get rid of capitalism because it enslaves mankind to corporations, nothing is perfect, he pretends it should be, you need a system in place to work realistically and Islam offers plenty in cultural bonds, values, identity far superior then lost Americans chasing money. it needs modernization by freedom from U.S oppression for resources and you wont see any jihad!

[nontheistdavid]

I read Robert Wrights book "The Evolution of God" and it was much ado about NOTHING.

[equsnarnd]

Sam says he gets emails by the 100's of thousands. Anyone have his email address?

[badtrunk456]

I love that point...If we simply didn't teach, or taught religion as myth to our children, we would be done with this stupidity in one generation..How the hell do you do that though?

[ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz]

@badtrunk456 It's easy. Just don't teach them. Imagine how much better our world would be if all the priests, imams, rabbis, theologians, apologists, etc became doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, fire-fighters, etc.

[tooclassy4most]

Sam, I love ya...but give the guy a second to talk! If they both just asked each other questions the entire time, nothing would get accomplished.

[memoryhero]

"People rarely change their mind in real time...and give you credit for it...and I certainly don't expect that to happen in this conversation..."

Sam Harris is a living, breathing, memorable quote factory.

[niinja2]

we make up devisive doctrines when we ned them to get rid of people we dont like

communism in russia and china is an example.

[mateenmajid]

Robert is wrong, at core what he is saying is that, good reasoning had a bad impact on people, i.e. people who are discussing with good arguments are wrong..

I can tell you once i was a fundamentalist Muslim, which now i'm not..

[isisdron]

@mateenmajid Robert believes that human nature is the problem, that human nature uses stories like religion to caricature and target an enemy when a group or individual is under threat, applicable to all humans. Sam seems to think that Islam in particular contributes to a general offensive on the part of Muslims who aim to conquer the globe. Since you are no longer a fundamentalist...I would greatly love to hear why you changed your mind, and why Robert is wrong in your view. PM or here is ok

[omegavalerius]

@mateenmajid

May I ask what factors influenced that change in your life?

[mellamosean]

@mateenmajid

What caused you to stop being a fundamentalist Muslim? What are you now, moderate Muslim? Atheist?

[mateenmajid]

@mellamosean To leave religion you need a change in perspective, so once i got the right perspective and i could raise the question, that why i believe what i believe, then i realized i don't have any reasons to believe.. So i'm an atheist..

[mellamosean]

@mateenmajid

what caused your change in perspective?

[mateenmajid]

@mellamosean It takes time to change perspective, first it started for me with conversation with an atheist friend, i thought he is totally wrong, but i read testimonies of some ex-muslims, and they got interested me more.. then i read alot of stuff in philosophy.. and had discussions on alot of online forums.. so now i'm completely an atheist, i believe "testimonies of ex-muslims" had a big contribution in changing my perspective.

[clockedlife]

@mateenmajid Beautiful! You reinforced my belief in Human capabilities of introspection and reasoning.

[1canondocre]

I just don't agree with Harris' view as to the problems we face as world citizens. The operating myths in our American society are doing the real damage to the environment and to people throughout the world. Our adherence to an economic belief system that exploits other people's resources and forces them to adopt the "Washington consensus" is the problem. This is our active 'religion' that we all follow without considering it to be a religion. Harris chooses an easy target.

[1canondocre]

We would be monsters not to wave the magic wand to change our history of overthrowing leaders in the Middle East. The same goes for South America. Harris would be a courageous dissident if he lived in the countries he reserves his scathing criticism of. It requires virtually no sacrifice or discomfort to criticize Islam from the US and I don't see what it achieves. It doesn't enhance my understanding and in the end it shifts the blame. We need to do what we can to improve our society.

[sylviabombs15]

robert wright is wrong. big time. he means well, and is probably a nice guy, but he doesn't understand the consequences of specific ideas.

[geromino2007]

@sylviabombs15 Robert actually tries to give more real world view. Islam is identity to muslims, one cannot try to take the indetity of another without getting serious backslash, because it's so personal. I am affraid that Sam's blunt approach inspires less intellectual racists part of the population for creating havoc he never intended. It's not enough that one is intelligent, he/she must be wise as well.

[johneamer]

@sylviabombs15 Very well put.

[VictorEchoNovember79]

sams face at 10:18 says it all