Tired Ass Arguments 1.3: Human Nature pt 3

[niza310]

watch?v=ThUaBAGJpQs

[CaptainFrantic]

I'm no expert on this topic but you certainly seemed to cover all the bases in this trilogy. Really well presented argument and ***** x 3.

The only basic assumption of human nature that I can listen to is that "each will almost invariably act out of personal self interest" (and even this is open to debate). For a few this means fucking over and "pwning" everyone within reach whilst others realise that co-operation is better than conflict and coercion.

Anyway, great job.

[soundmoneyfan]

great trilogy of great thoughts

[organdva]

5* all 3 parts. :)

The only two arguments that (I know of)suggest genetic predisposition for authority and conformity are: Father(mother) figure and heard(kinship).Fallowing the biggest individual and the biggest numbers increase chance of survival.

This can be argument for anarchism while this is hijacked by the power structures.

Dawkins in ''The Purpose of Purpose'' make it more clear.

[blackacidlizzard]

Yeah, there's some interesting ideas I've come up with (I'm sure many others have as well) about the relation of statism to evolution, I plan to delve into that in detail much later in this series.

[organdva]

Greg Graffin said that religion is in adaptation to evolution. We are actually talking to atheists so evolutionary biology is probably the best place to start.

I think this should expand beyond statism to authorities in business and conformity in markets and democracy.

For me it all resolve in one question (for ancaps in particular). Human condition require education in order to participate in society. So, this implies positive rights. That's all from me.

[blackacidlizzard]

I believe that evolution is over-used, and even among some atheists becomes anthropomorphic to the detriment of real understanding.

I hold that rights are mere claims, and to say they are anything more is to deny reality. The question in my mind is what will yield a better result. And my answer is that any unquestionable authority sows the seeds for degeneration.

[blackacidlizzard]

(continued)

Greg wrote some good songs back in the day (not so much, this decade) but i have never heard anything from him that I could take as something to be seriously considered as accurate or thoroughgoing insights into reality. What you typed above does the opposite of changing my opinion. :p

;)

[organdva]

He got PHD in evolutionary biology.....and he is cool. lol (send you link)

Not changing your opinion man :)

What is needed to be questioned. Can one participate without the basic knowledge, like language and math? Can (s)he make contracts at all then?

[blackacidlizzard]

Evolutionary biology is a far cry from philosophy. (and, for that matter, much philosophy is a far cry from reality :p )

Are you proposing a singular model of accepted agreements? If so, I believe you will run into problems with holding back the belief in an "unquestionable ruler from on high."

[organdva]

''Singular model of accepted agreements?'' -No, but I can only argue for systems that will not have problem with that. Humans are born without knowledge. I can't ignore that part of our nature and obligations that future system will have because of that.

[blackacidlizzard]

Are obligations a fact or a claim?

[organdva]

This part of human nature is fact. Obligations are always claims, and all of them.

[NoDeity]

I've also heard the idea that it is necessary for the survival of small children that they be inclined to obey unquestioningly and that a failure to completely grow out of that is responsible for the popularity of both religion and government.

[blackacidlizzard]

I think I agree with that. Or at least, I take it as a SERIOUS possibility.

[organdva]

NoDeity, underage prostitute in Thailand would definitely hate that idea while she is investing in her education in economics to become a boss one day.

[NoDeity]

organdva, I don't get the connection between my comment and your response.

[organdva]

NoDeity, I'm sorry to hear that.

[NoDeity]

Well, it's a bit puzzling. Are most underage Thai prostitutes small children, eg. four or five years old?

[organdva]

What, you are interested?

[NoDeity]

lol

[GuardofLiberty]

I hate the fatalistic reasoning of people who say it will inevitably relapse into a state.

[tattooskin72]

I've never used the human nature argument in the way that you are describing it. The vast majority of human beings have shown me that we are no better than some ape out in the wild... as a matter of fact, I think they are better than us in many ways. At least they are "honest" in what they do and why they do it. Our larger, more developed brains have done very little for us. State or no state, we will find a way to destroy ourselves because we are stupid.

[tattooskin72]

Now, I should say... I could just be a bit pissy this morning since I had very little sleep, it's fucking raining again, my arthritis is fucking pissing me off... and yeah, ...

anyway, this is definitely a great video for thought. I say it a lot, but you and Erik are a couple of my favorite anarchists on youtube. I always enjoy your videos.

[blackacidlizzard]

Thanks, I appreciate it. I actually didn't even know that you kept up with my output, that's a pleasant surprise. :)

What you put forward is an inevitability argument, but not one about the state, so, yeah.. my "no eternal stability" point here kind of addresses that, but not really.

I definitely understand (and have been feeling, recently) the pessimism about the human condition. On "inevitable self-destruction," I will say this: 10K+ years, 40 with the easy capacity, we haven't done it yet.

[tattooskin72]

Give us time, I'm sure we'll do it... hehe

[TheBigHo111]

*****