The Fundamentals Of Pool With Greyghost Part 2 of 2

[gsab415]

Is there anywhere else online I can get more info about 'piston' style stroke? I changed my stroke a bit and could use some more tips on it

[turaniko]

Ok, it sounds great and it makes alot of sense. putting the cue right infront of the cue ball to maintain the same distance and everthing. Think about a blind pocket shot. First you look at a contact point then you put the cue right infront of the cue ball.. Well.. I just lost the contact point. What are your suggestions on that? It makes sense on the shots that are not blind pocket but what are your suggestions on the blind pocket shots? How do I keep my distance the same with the cue ball?

[GetMeThere1]

Also, I have a problem with discussions of grip vs "ball action." According to DrDave (and to common sense) the ONLY parameters that affect ball action are the point and angle where the tip meets the CB, and the speed of the cue at the point of hit. Since actual contact time is only 1 ms, there is NO TIME for any human applied "magic" to a stroke (like flicking the wrist).

Someone prove (or explain) to me how "ball action" can depend on grip.

[LeonFleisherFan]

@GetMeThere1 It's a fascinating topic for sure. There are probably more ways to throw stroke timing off, but theoretically, given simultaneous forward movement (as in perfect timing), the wrist action may add to (e.g. Bustamante's break) rather than detract from (most people who move more body parts than necessary, especially in different directions) the stroke, and thus action (such as draw depends on the relation of back spin applied versus force/forward motion, i.e. it's a matter of timing).

[LeonFleisherFan]

@LeonFleisherFan What I meant in terms of timing is add to or detract from the acceleration Keebie is putting so much emphasis on in the video. Apart from the feel one should develop learning it, I'm convinced one can hear it, by the way. Players with great timing make less of a thumping noise - it would be interesting to know if that is due to their tip keeping contact to the cue ball longer (all a matter of friction, after all), wonder if there's a measurable difference. DrDave?! :-)

[LeonFleisherFan]

@GetMeThere1 Had an interesting discussion with a martial arts instructor about the break in pool some time ago: it's apparently all about flicking, as the more inert parts of the body need to be put in motion first (i.e. watch Bustamante's hips), the lighter ones (i.e. the wrist and foot) last, as in a multiple suspension of pendulums. That's why it's near-impossible to get right without the practice time of a pro (amateurs may be better off being more economic in their movements).

[keebie2]

@GetMeThere1 CUE BALL ACTION depends on the MOMENTUM that you gave the CB.......The CB gets its momentum from the CUE STICK......Your CUE STICK gets it momentum from the stroking arm.  If you grip the cuestick too tight then you KILL ITS MOMENTUM....B/C your hand can not keep up properly with the momentum of THE CUE. Which gives you a PUSHING EFFECT in the shot, as opposed to attaining more POP off the ball.

[GetMeThere1]

@keebie2 : Please know I appreciate the video, and people sharing their info. Still, I would really like to know the TRUE FACTS on all these issues (the subject of "stroke" is endlessly fascinating to anybody who loves pool). According to Dr.Dave, the SPEED of the tip as it hits the CB is the relevant parameter. Others have noted that flex in the shaft effectively HIDES much of the mass of the cue (and the player's arm) from a "momentum transfer." It simply shouldn't matter how cue is gripped.

[keebie2]

@GetMeThere1 Go grip the hell out of the cue then and see how much action you can deliver on the ball.

You say Dave says its all about speed? Well speed and momentum are linked....you can't swing your arm as fast as the cue stick....THAT IS WHY

When a baseball pitcher throws a 100mph fastball his arm IS NOT TRAVELING 100MPH

Do you understand that now?

[GetMeThere1]

@keebie2 : I don't think you're thinking about this clearly. If speed is all that matters, and your hand doesn't actually SLIDE on the cue, then it simply doesn't matter whether the cue is gripping tightly or loosely--it's the same thing. (sure, I wouldn't--I COULDN'T--grip a cue tightly, but that's for matters of "feel" and not having my wrist muscles interfere with stroke consistency). It has to be physically demonstrated that grip matters. Nobody has demonstrated that.

[keebie2]

@GetMeThere1 Oh i don't doubt that you do....and thanks for the compliment. Its all in good discussion and learning

[GetMeThere1]

@keebie2 : I thought about this more. Speed is everything. In stroke, speed is achieved ONLY by the bicep (pendulum stroke). If you grip tightly and feel the muscles, you can feel the TRICEPS tense. So...by gripping tight you may end up stiffening your triceps, which could work contrary to the force of your biceps, which might slow down your arm movement--and thus limit "ball action." This is probably true is ALL SPORTS: unnecessarily tightening muscles counteracts the muscles you WANT to use.

[keebie2]

@GetMeThere1 The Cue stick has about 3x the mass of the CB.....the momentum that the Cue can attain is much more than that which the hand/arm can deliver. 

Its not about penetration distance or anything like you said.

The momentum of the cue along with angle of hit etc.. is what determines the action of the CB.

The cues momentum is greater than the hand can deliver, so you take the hand out of the equation.

[GetMeThere1]

@keebie2 : I'm not really clear on what you're saying. First, there's no argument: the issue is momentum transfer. BUT, considering that, you should be able to transfer MORE momentum by gripping tightly, because then the mass of your entire arm would be added to the momentum (momentum is mass x velocity). The cue can't "get past" your arm/grip--the cue moves only in response to the force your arm exerts on it.

[keebie2]

@GetMeThere1 Like i said its just like a pitcher......pitchers grip light to throw fireballs....it they grip tight, well they would not be in the majors b/c they wouldn't get no heat.

Just go to a table brother and grip the crap out the cue and light grip and look at the results....if your any kind of player at all it will be obvious in your results.

[GetMeThere1]

@keebie2 : I would one day like to build a "stroke machine" to test some of these ideas. The main idea I would wish to test is whether speed alone accounts for ALL "CB action." I'd do it by comparing CB action achieved by the machine vs actual human players--at the same speeds. I'd also try to make a machine that actually "threw" the cue stick--so there was no continuing "force" when tip met CB. I think those answers might FINALLY settle many "stroke" questions to everybody's satisfaction.

[GetMeThere1]

I have a lot of disagreement with the discussion of grip here. First, I think "straightness" is over-emphasized (business with extending the thumb, etc.). Bodies and bones aren't straight. What is needed is CONSISTENCY, not straightness. Consistency is best achieved by MINIMIZING muscle tension (if muscles are relaxed there's no variation from one stroke to the next). Thus, the hand should hang down with the wrist relaxed--at whatever angle that happens to be.

[LeonFleisherFan]

@GetMeThere1 It's all a means to an end: the movement of the cue has to be straight. Question is, how are you going to achieve and teach consistency in doing so. Agree on what you say on muscle tension: best is a "dangling" grip hand, and a grip that'll allow the player to not "do" anything during the stroke - a cradle with sufficient friction rather than a "grip" (it's really noun versus verb here, since gripping/clenching one's fingers - what too many players do - is what causes problems).

[xXxadam5xXx]

i have started using the vee grip in the past year or so and its actually helped me stay loose but not to where the cue slips out of my hand. its helped me get more action and i think it is a great grip that people should learn.......are you going to have anymore segments with greyghost? because this segment was very informative and it would be nice to see his views on other topics.

[forcefollow]

@xXxadam5xXx Much more is planned. It will be a couple of months, but stay tuned. I will post a break video later today.

[pjwoolw]

Nicely done!

[Real5am]

Again, very instructive. Hope you have more discussions on fundamentals with other folks. 

[Real5am]

Again, very instructive. Hope you have more discussions on fundamentals with other folks.

[doilyfilm]

interesting talk. i'm glad to finally get some info about the cryptic "vee grip"