This sort of wicked deceit is called "neutral point of view" and stands in strong opposition to everyone who speaks and everything that is written which state support or acceptance or faith in God's testimony which He's given us in the Holy Scriptures, which have stood the test of time.
Liars cannot be trusted to tell the truth and all who oppose Scripture are liars.
Jesus testified that it was easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the law to fail.
Jesus was nailed to a cross, and his stomach was cut open (and liquid poured out). I don't think you just wake up 3 days later after that, and walk around like nothing happened just because you took some strong drugs. I'm not saying you need to believe the story of Jesus, just saying that some strong drugs won't make everything okay after your body has gone through that much trauma.
@mindinclined It is when you're an eyewitness to the resurrection as I am.
Jesus appeared to me and spoke to me in 1972 and He is indeed risen from the dead and the Scriptures are true. Furthermore, you're a fool to oppose God when you're thoroughly and completely ignorant. You know nothing of your suppositions and speculations -- you're just a blasphemer without a cause, except to deny the truth. That's the devil's job and Jesus said the whole world lies in his power. Should make you think.
@911dispatcher You saw someone who appeared to look the same as Jesus.
Prove that you did actually see the real Jesus. Prove that anything you believe is true.
I don't believe anything that has not been objectively demonstrated by physical evidence.
Besides, you really think that what you said is going to make mindinclined think? You have no evidence to support your statements, so they will be disregarded and completely ignored.
@pro4skill What you're too dead to understand is that God is a spirit and this world is ruled by spirits. The spirits of darkness and light. Those of the light communicate light and truth and those in the light know what's going on. Those in the darkness love the darkness because their deeds are evil and lying to oneself is part and parcel of the "darkness."
You refuse to believe our testimony because your deeds are evil and you love the darkness. "Prove" to you?
@911dispatcher Interesting how you always make unfalsifiable hypotheses. The properties of what you are hypothesizing are unknown, therefore your hypothesis cannot be proved wrong.
It is OK to be afraid of dying, it is normal, and death is inevitable. I understand your need to convince yourself that you may live on after death because you cannot comprehend the idea of not having any thoughts or even a pulse after death.
By the way, if I see a physical demonstration, I will believe it.
@mindinclined Only fools will ignore the mountains of evidence for the veracity of Scripture and substitute the fantasies of their minds and consider it reasonable and responsible.
Servants of satan will go far beyond that and fabricate mountains of lies to deceive people.
The Bible is its own best witness and a true heart will hear God speak.
Those seeking to justify themselves will find all the excuses they want to deny God's Word and when Judgment comes, they'll see they have no excuses.
Michael Persinger, a christian.... hum! hum! Don't believe that Wayneoss! Or are you trying to launch an urban legend like the one forged by the muslims who proclaimed that the oceanographer "Commandant Custeau" converted to islam...
I would just like to take this time to say I am glad I do not throw away 10-20 grand on an education to hear professors like this idiot talk about speculative shit he really has no grasp of. Besides clearly having not read the bible the nonsense you speak of sir is astounding. Everyone of those kids is now dumber for hearing you speak and I hope just out of the goodness of your hear you donate some of that fat professor paycheck to charity cause your a fraud buddy.
The wages of sin is DEATH...not drugs. This guy doesn't present any "evidence" by the way; he simply states that a drug existed 2,000 years ago. I don't see the big deal... Jesus wasn't a magician or an illusionist; He's the Son of God and didn't need to 'fake His death'.
To address a previous comment from ch40z.... the historical record of Josephus is RIFE with references to Christ, but I'm sure that fact escapes you.
@ActorRyanFelton You neglect to mention that Josephus was born after Jesus died... hardly can his work be considered primary evidence if he did not even exist at the time of Jesus' supposed life. His work is also rife with forgery and additions by monks long after his life.
This video shows how easily one could fake death, in order to fool people. Oral traditions are prone to systematic distortion and exaggeration.
We are all son's of god - but 'Jesus' is just a myth.
@mindinclined Too many drugs keep you from using your brain? Josephus lived over 1900 years ago and was far closer to eyewitnesses than lying scorners such as yourself and has long been considered a very credible historian and very many things which he said have been confirmed and verified... yet you feel compelled to open your mouth with worthless nonsense and finish it with a blatant lie. Your user name should be "liesinclined" since spreading nonsense, deceit and lies is your agenda.
Many people in history, have thought they were the "son of god"...or any reincarnation, etc. etc. etc...it's old hat, and was, even during the time of jesus...he was nothing special, just another psychotic individual with a split personality complex.
I agree with nazree7 or whatevr that name is he was stabed with a spere people stop leting the world and satin steal ur mind and life the more u read the bible and pray u just start 2 no its truue i know he was and still is and always will be lord and savior and no 1 could survive being hung on a cross staving stab beatin torutured come on now
@1krystalgoon1 How can you prove he was stabbed? or that he even really existed? The historical record is seriously lacking in support for the Jesus myth... and if you cite the bible, you are just fooling yourself because most of it was written starting from the at least 100 years after his supposed death. Taking the bible as proof of anything is about equivalent to taking the works of Dr. Theodor Seuss Geisel as proof of the existence of the Lorax...
@1krystalgoon1 P.S. I don't know why I even bothered writing that, trying to speak in terms of logic and fact to a believer is usually about as effective as trying to teach calculus to a doorknob...
Jesus died on the cross 4 our sins and got up and he is lord king savoior he will give u peace from this world he wasnt on drugs or the peole who saw him it relly happen and hes real so is satin which road will u chose ? plz choose jesus god our savior he died 4 us and if u dont belive u will end up empty with no peace god is peace and long story short he ddidnt take drugs the facts r iin the bible
this is too intellectually embarrassing for some... GOD works in mysterious ways D's mysterious code in that word and name =26 G7 O15 D4 using just simple alphanumerics there is no coincidence that there is that many letters in the English alphabet and letters make words we should trust GOD's word that name can be assured don't forget oh yeah JESUS code =74 the first and last numbers of GOD something is 100% for sure 2nd verse 'Good News' sounds better in song love!!!
@Spetsop Rubbish because it's looking for a far fetched "possible" explanation for this part of the Jesus myth. We all know it's just the rising of the sun after winter solstice, the rising from the dead. I do not hold any "ancient beliefs" and I do not try marrying modern science to an ancient story like in this video.
I wouldn't say it's 'far fetched', given the fact that this drug was known to people at that time and drugs were routinely used to alter one's consciousness... especially for religious purposes.
Some might say that the astronomical explanation you provided is 'far fetched', due to the fact that most believe that Jesus did exist.
My apologies for the outburst though... most of the people I meet on here want science out when it contradicts their faith.
@Spetsop I do not accept the little proof some present for a historical Jesus. The idea that somewhere on the line this mythical savior got a special drug so to survive torture, piercing with a spear and such, is looking for a way of explanation that helps disguise the fact that it was just a fairy tale. The Buddha was not a real historical figure also and that maybe one of the roots for the invention of a Jesus story. (It has been proven that ALL "original" Buddha sites are later fakes).
I'm not arguing with you that it's a fairy tale, it's a story used by countless other religions that predate Jesus. I'm just saying that this is something that actually happens when this drug is used on certain individuals.
lol the point of this video was not to refute or support the myth of Jesus, it was to explain how the drug works... it's actually the opposite of what you said, Jesus was just mentioned briefly, while the main topic was the drug... just like the entire lecture was: "Psychotropic Drugs and Nature of Consciousness"
@Spetsop I don't care what the whole lecture was about. It's the bit called "Jesus resurrection and drugs". This exert clearly suggests that Jesus Christ could have used this drug what would possibly make his resurrection factual. Total rubbish it is linking a fairy tale to a chemical, not to help sell the chemical but the imaginary tale. A fairy tale that brain damages people ever since it conception. Causing hypocritical delusions and psychosis all over the world.
Well, then your issue should be with the title of this video... because this is simply a segment of the overall presentation! The whole Jesus thing is an example of how this drug could have been used, so that the public understands better (because, once again most people believe Jesus was real). It's an analogy! You wouldn't have said anything about this lecture if the last 40 seconds were cut out.
@Spetsop Indoctrinated people believe in Jesus indeed + they lack the insight and imagination that such lies can be invented, supported and used for so many century's for power without much hassle. Catholicism is established evil of the most sophisticated kind with masses of naive believers willing to die for what them hypocrites think is good. People don't have any idea about the top level corruption + old boys networking of politicians, notary, royals, cardinals and other such Jesus vermin.
"A fairy tale that brain damages people ever since it conception. Causing hypocritical delusions and psychosis all over the world." What is that even supposed to mean? :/
This is ignorant. When Jesus was pierced with the Centurion's spear, blood and water came out. Such separation is a sign of physical death.
Google: "Josh McDowell," and,
"Dr. Alex Metherall wraps up His look at how the Roman Executioners left NO room for any other conclusion than the TOTAL DEMISE of their crucifixion victims."
The destiny of your soul depends on what you do with Jesus.
This is ignorant. When Jesus was pierced with the Centurion's spear, blood and water came out. Such separation is a sign of physical death.
Google: "Josh McDowell," and,
"Dr. Alex Metherall wraps up His look at how the Roman Executioners left NO room for any other conclusion than the TOTAL DEMISE of their crucifixion victims."
The destiny of your soul depends on what you do with Jesus.
@Spetsop Persinger is implying that the resurrection can be explained because of this drug, which the person shows death like symptoms of hypothermia, thus Jesus would have been seen as suffering from hypothermia is this theory had any ground, but that is false.
"Death-like hypothermia" doesn't simply mean that the person shows "death like symptoms of hypothermia", it means that to the outsider the person APPEARS to be dead, with the most readily observed symptom of hypothermia (a cold dead body). There is also extremely low heart beat and respiratory rate (which is ok when the person is hypothermic because the metabolism slows down drastically in a cold body, like in the case of suspended animation).
So Jesus, or any other person with temporal lobe lability, would have been seen as if they were dead (and at those times, without modern technology, it was impossible to tell if the person was still alive when they exhibited the above symptoms, there are lots of cases from as recent as just 100 years ago when people were buried alive because they were thought to be dead simply because of external observation).
@Spetsop You really think Jesus was still alive after being flogged to the bone, beat to the ground, stuck with thorns in his head, having to carry his cross while being flogged, two large nails thrusted through his wrists and ankles, left out on the cross for hours, stabbed with a spear, and entombed for 3 days with no food or water?
If he even existed... yep! The Bible has tons of contradictions and exaggerations in it... so more likely than not, the whole Jesus story was blown out of proportion too... once again, if he even did exist (look at my and isleofyew1 conversation).
In modern times monks in Tibet get buried for days to put their meditative abilities to the test, and survive. You have people who survive for days under earthquake rubble. Well you get the point.
@Spetsop That's a red herring. And the passages of the crucifixion were proven accurate because of our knowledge about how the Romans conducted them. Let's assume he did exist, now please answer: did Jesus survive the crucifixion and entombment while only suffering death like symptoms of hypothermia? If not then this theory has no ground.
Also, those who saw Jesus after being resurrected saw him with a glorious body that they wanted too, not one battered and bloody.
What's a "red herring"? My comment on how people in modern times can withstand extreme conditions (like Jesus supposedly did) and still survive? Or that he probably didn't even exist?
The Bible ITSELF contradicts the story of crucifixion and resurrection! In terms of times and witnesses!
"death like symptoms of hypothermia"... ONCE again. It's 'death-like hypothermia' and it's NOT just this one "symptom" it's a number of things!
Hypothermia is just something that is most observable from the first glance/touch of the body. There are numerous cases in medicine (before proper techniques of evaluating whether or not the person IS actually dead), especially at the turn of the century and before, of people getting buried alive specifically BECAUSE they were thought to be dead! And only later, when coffins were opened, there were scratches on the walls, bodies turned the other way, etc. showing that ppl were alive.
@Spetsop You complain about me trying to prove a portion of the Bible while using the Bible as ONE of the references. Yet Persinger is trying to disprove the Bible using the Bible as one of the resources.
And yes, if you're aiming to prove something in the Bible, you have to use the Bible as one of the resources, if you don't then you won't know what it is you're trying to prove.
Bah, seriously? It has everything to do with it! It shows how easy it was at those times to mistakenly assume that the person is dead!
And once again, the Bible is an exaggeration of events (a lot of which are FICTIONAL), and in a lot of cases it even contradicts itself (as in the case of Jesus resurrection).
This "Jesus" story goes WAY back, before Christianity was even established! There are numerous accounts of other prophets with the same birth/death stories!
I don't take the Bible as historical document. It's full of contradictions and fictional stories. You're trying to prove the story in the Bible by going TO the Bible for reference, it doesn't work like that.
@LittleSn00py Hmmm, and I suppose it's just coincidence that everything we know about him can be found in ancient mythology? It's like people 2000 years from now looking at our movies and calling them history - as if we worshipped Superman and James Bond. Ridiculous.
@mindinclined No similarities can be found in ancient mythology. This is established pseudohistory. The only thing that is ridiculous here is your readiness to believe anything what anti-religious kooks say on the internet. I prefer people with credentials to the people with tin foil hats.
@LittleSn00py LOL, I was expecting you to tell me the Devil had planted those stories in advance (the official view of the catholic church). So if even the catholic church recognizes these facts and you don't, I gotta ask... do you wear those foil hats yourself to protect yourself from outside information? I don't want to call you a liar, so I'm just going to assume you are uneducated. Please research Adonis, Osiris, Dionysus, and Tammuz. Another great resource is "Hero With A Thousand Faces".
@LittleSn00py Try Justin Martyr's 'First Apology' for starters. I will take a 'Jungian Kook' over child-molesting murderers and AIDS promoters anytime. I guess we believe those who are like us.
@mindinclined Justin Marytr's 'First Apology' is not a document of the Catholic Church, nor is it used as presenting the official stance of the Catholic Church. You made this up. Martyr's Apology also does not support your kooky, fringe view, which shows that you have not even read the work in question. This makes you a liar.
The remaining hysterical statements show how inadequate you are.
@LittleSn00py Ahhh the last stance of an cornered fool: denial. You started by claiming that the story of Jesus is entirely unique, now you claim one of the Church's father's is not a church father. Truly a man of no shame.
I admit my words were a little over-the-top, but seriously, you are a follower of one of the most reprehensible organizations of people that have ever walked this earth. I have no respect for your or anyone that blindly follows them or their ideas. It is sickening.
@LittleSn00py LOL, you call me fringe and a conspiracy follower, while attacking me for name-calling and straw man? Did you get your degree in politics?
I attacked your mythology and your ideas. That's called argument.
Although I am no Xtian I am going to play jesus's advocate: if he was drugged while on the cross, explain the wound in his side and the centurion affirming to pilate he was dead assuming the gospels are accurate. Also explain the image of his apparent resurrection on that burial shroud now in Turin.
There's always mysteries, you'll never answer WHY, just HOW. A description rather than a solution to describing its TRUE meaning. For me real truth lies in love and compassion.
Yikes. What are you atheists so afraid of? And no, I'm not a Christian, either. But you guys are a rabid as the born-agains! Proof that the voice of reason comes from neither camp.
Agreed. It can be that way. Atheists claim to be free thinkers but they're mostly just anti-religious to a fault. In no way open minded or scientific.
Umm I wasn't commenting on the video, I think Persinger is brilliant (though I do think this is a bit of a stretch). I was agreeing with that guy, but should have said SOME atheists. I find that it's most true for the quasi-educated internetz atheists. Besides, not entirely sure if he meant the video either. He may have meant the comments. :)
@21jmeff because those things aren't scientific. You have to be able to measure something in order to apply scientific method. Those things are the realm of philosophy, which has in my opinion, advanced those very things.
Not even dude......Mark only started writing about the event 70 years later? Come on? Can you say myth, because the people needed one? Welcome to the dark ages, people stopped asking questions, and science died.
Seriously, I just don't have faith to believe in this crap. It's all BS by Atheist trying to demonize religion and the probably of this actually ocurring is close to zero.
Now there's a good argument! And probably the PROBABILITY is much higher than zero, certainly higher than the probability that he died and rose from the dead.
The most likely scenario of all is that the whole story is fairy tale. But if you don't get the point, don't make brain-dead arrogant comments like that, you look like a moron.
The fact is that the chances of what Dr. Persinger described is very low and also a person rising from the dead is also very low (lower than former) .
I think most Atheist become blind to logic and reason as emotions overcomes them. You are replacing one story with another story, and making it more valid to reason simply because the latter story has more probability than the former, even though both are close to zero.
Again, I am not replacing one story with another. It is providing an alternative. What this shows is that even if witnesses passed on a story and were truly amazed by what they thought was a resurrection, it could have been faked. It further decreases the plausibility of the resurrection - rather than speak as though this were some kind of historical fact.
unfortunately for this theory, the symptoms Jesus underwent reveal he likely died due to heart failure. so therefore, he actually DIED. another scientific theory trying to explain Jesus' death down the drain.
Symptoms? Heart Failure? Could you please direct me to the medical authority that has written this and the passage it is based on?
Not that it matters, what this theory suggests is that the whole story is a sham, that a fraud caused people to write a bogus account (most likely with invented details). So whatever 'symptoms' you refer to, they are irrelevant. People can write whatever they please. The point is simply that miracles can be faked.
There are 1200 different christian denominations just in the US. If it's god's word evidently he isn't being very clear. To me the story of jesus dying and resurrecting is about ego death which we can achieve by eating his "flesh" ie. an entheogen. Do THIS in remembrance of me.
That's all bullshit. Jesus is a myth, to take the story literally is to miss the point. The old testament was borrowed from Babylonian mythology. The new testament is a conglomeration of different writings that were edited over and over and over. As far as "holy books" go it's one of the weakest.
Got any support for that or is it just conjecture? "Holy books" aside and "mythology" aside, what does the book say? Compared to other "suggestions for life" it has been accepted by more people than any other known to mankind (save perhaps the Buddhist writings .... but wait. Buddha neglected anything of permanence, including a written word! Precisely why it changes across cultures.)
You are telling a large part of humanity that they are all fools. if you're that smart, we can't even debate.
jedit- Yes, if you believe the bible is the literal truth you're a fool. I assume a lot of christians understand that it's myth and metaphor. My main point is we really don't know what we are or how we got here but I'm sure it's not as simple as the old/new testament story. As far as suggestions for life there are thousands of better books, as far as how life started it's a mystery, maybe outside our comprehension as mere humans. part 2
oh the good appeal to the masses! How logically powerful! What a moron Galileo was trying to convince 99% of the population that the earth wasn't the center of the universe! He couldn't have been right against all of those people! No way, no how. So jedit? Does the sun revolve around the earth then?
Or maybe the earth only started revolving around the earth once the opinion swayed above 50% in favor of the sun hypothesis? Until then, Galileo was wrong. How kind of us to prove him right.
Aside from other things: eg. Romans knew how to kill someone. They were rather good at it. Stabbing someone to make sure they are dead is pretty good assurance.
Even then, had a guy NOT died after the scourging Christ (or any robber) received, walking around afterwards with those wounds would hardly inspire resurrection theology.
You won't believe in resurrection, but you put faith in spontaneous life theory of evolution? What logic is that?
All of YOUR information comes from one book. The one the Christians wrote and rewrote themselves. There is NO other proof of any thing in the bible. No contemporary historian, nothing. You can't even argue using logic or critical thinking, only "faith".
"There is NO other proof of any thing in the bible."
Hmm..Josephus, Pliny the Younger, I could list a number of contemporary outside sources which testify to the historicity of the Bible if you'd like. . .
LOL. Evolution can be observed, deduced, and broken down into simple chemistry. Resurrection is supported by ancient scribblings, far removed from the delusional epileptics that mumbled them. Yes I like my logic just fine.
Um..actually the gospel accounts were written within the lifetimes of the disciples, and counterintiuitive to 21st century thinking, in the ancient world oral tradition was used and viewed as a much more reliable than written documents. The accounts were written down after Christians began to be persecuted and killed. Although to your credit I think it is naive to say that evolution didn't occur. The thing I disagree with is the antisupernatural bias.
So this just means that BOTH written and verbal reports were likely seriously flawed. Your point suggests that the original gospel accounts are not even as reliable as oral retelling. I think that alone casts serious doubt.
I would understand a problem with antisupernatural bias if the evidence for supernaturalism was on the same ground as materialism. What you refer to as 'bias' is merely an appeal to the strongest of evidence.
I think that a more fair evaluation of my efforts is an attempt to overcome supernatural bias. Which I believe is merely an appeal to ignorance, positing supernatural forces only where understanding is not complete. Besides ignorance, the supernatural argument is on extremely shaky positive evidencial grounds.
This definition of "Evolution" cannot in fact be observed. Adaptation and change over time may be observed, we have no problem with this whatsoever. Its the presumption of "nothing" changing by chance into rational beings that is not witnessed nor has the science to support that we do not agree with.
Ones logic is not good logic if it doesn't agree with all the facts - just as mathematics that doesn't come out to the right sum. Science cannot make absolute statements on non-empirical matters.
Nobody says "nothing changed by chance into rational beings". Matter, chemistry, and biology did. Only theists posit something from nothing. I maintain that the universe is simply in constant flux. Occasionally resulting in yes, life.
And nobody can make absolute statements on non-empirical matters. Well they can, but it doesn't mean anything.
Again putting words in my mouth. I am going to call you straw-man killer. I am referring to individuals that claim burning bushes spoke to them and angels gave them messages. Plato wrote about some philosopher that spoke to people. I appreciate the attempt at equating them but, be serious, you look like a fool.
Jesus had it easy compared to a lot of the veterans coming back from Iraq, some of whom will have to spend the rest of their lives looking like Dr. Phibes. Iraq veterans have come back with amputated limbs, paralysis, brain damage, 3rd degree burns over much of their bodies, major organ failures, parts of their faces blown off. If the Romans had done some of that stuff to Jesus so that he looked like a Halloween costume when he "rose from the dead," I doubt christians would hold him in such awe.
I agree with that - dying is easier than a living death. And stab wounds are easier than half blown off faces. But dead is still dead. Amputated limbs and brain damage are horrid things, things most of us are blessed not to live with. Its not just soldiers that must live with them though. We must be forever thankful to those willing to lay down their lives (living or dying) for our freedoms; physical or spiritual.
Lazarus was dead some four days - I am pretty sure he was pretty foul as well.
"Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise."
Straight from a human that recently lived: "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
there's no proof that jesus was given anything on the cross
its was also impossible for his apostles to give him any drugs science he was arrested and tortured for days while they all ran away and hide. they were not present when he was crucified
plus Romans usually pierced the sides of crucified bodies to confirm death
jesus was stabbed by a spear, witnesses attest to water coming out before blood (a sign of death) then he was buried. even if he was drugged he would have bleed to death
Well, for one, Palestine wasn't exactly considered "big news" so there isn't much of anything from Roman about that era. Certainly about some upstart, dead or alive.
Two, by that same logic, isn't it odd that out of all the reports that it DID happen, ie, the how many thousand copies we have from Gospels and other reasonably reliable reports, that there isn't ONE refuting it? Some one was likely to say, 'Hey! I was there! It didn't happen!' But we don't have that.
He forgot to mention that 'Dead-like' features include breathing, urinating on yourself, seizures, and inadvertent shaking; hardly what onlookers would consider a dead person. After he 'recovered' he would have further exhibited seizures, loss of mobility, and memory. Conjecture.
I respect Persinger and his work in the field of Neuroscience, but those of you who are listening in on this bit of lecture do not understand that his classes do involve controversial material. That's the point behind the disclaimers he has us sign when we take the classes. I'm kind of discomforted that this kind of material actually made it onto youtube. You're supposed to pay tuition to hear this stuff. Come on mindinclined... Save this stuff for the people who pay for it.
It was a response to someone saying this knowledge should have been restricted to the class room, moron. And YES it is knowledge. ANYONE who has had ANY experience with 5HT2a agonists knows that "revelations" is a fucking acid trip described by bronze age minds.
If that drug is so powerful, why is it not used in medical science today for the dead? Read "THE CASE FOR THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS, by Habermas and Licona.
This guys theory that the use of Reserpine explains the resurrection of Jesus is completely unfounded. Mark 15:23 states that they offered Jesus a bitter drink (probably wine mixed with myrrh) and that He REFUSED IT!
So the question of what it was is irrelevant. This man's statements regarding this matter are an insult to the scientific method and theology. Don't allow someone to force feed you "truth" just because it sounds good.
So the syngergism of the drugs put him into a deep consiousness and healed his wounds and the gash he took to the his right side? thats harder to believe than the resurrection itself
Fascinating. I've never met someone that has read every certified scholar's work... Are you sure you aren't the reincarnated Jesus himself? It would be bold say that the very of existence of Jesus is a historical fact... you sir have gigantic kahoonas
Well, no, I did not mean literally EVERY scholar (perhaps there are a few, such as Robert Price and Richard Carrier.)
But if you're going to evaluate the criteria for ancient facts, it qualifies. And I DON'T know of more than three scholars (of which I can think of, Carrier, Price and Doherty) who don't accept the existence of a historical Jesus. It's not really up for debate, and if you can name other scholars, that'd be great.
A lack of a resurrection provides appreciation, awe, and motivation to not take this life for granted. Living, dying, joy all take on new meaning. Perhaps the problem is your lack imagination - Your God drains it.
Why would the creative force of the universe and all that exists within it drain imagination or creativity? I respectfully disagree with you. My God is the source and nutrition of creativity. Also, while I can understand your perspective of how a lack of resurrection could incite a greater appreciation of life, it could possibly dampen the experience by seeing life as a destination, not a journey. It also considerably negates the hope of an afterlife.
he shows the existence of that which the messengers of god or gods energy may use , he shows the real existence of our receptivness to these forces already in our brain before the technology and you slag him off. for some reason the proof that this what you believe is real is a threat to your beleif system maybey becos you have had none of your own direct experiences. understand that just because we can cause these experiences doesnt mean that something of a higher truth doesnt use them to .
First of all, I didn't accuse "science" of anything. As you may or may not be aware, "science" is not a sentient being and is therefore incapable of emotions such as arrogance. Second, I never at any time even mentioned a holy book of any kind. But you were too busy thinking of ad hominum attacks to notice this. Key word here is "available information." sometimes "science" forgets that "available information" does not mean "all information" and attacks anyone who disagrees. part 1
Not to mention, Yeshua REFUSED the gall & hissop (that bitter drink that u are painfully uneducated about its very name or substance). HE REFUSED IT. This guy needs a heavy warning about his UNETHICAL tugging of one's faith out from under their feet. BS course, whatta fool.
Thanks Doc. But I find a greater lack of ethics in the brainwashing bull literature that you profess as history. This theory is just much more plausible than yours so your pissed off. Get over it crybaby.
This guy is right about one thing. The bible is does have a lot of bullshit in it. No offense but even if it was written under divine inspiration by prophets, they were still human and as we well know, nothing humans have ever done is perfect; not science and not the bible.
SHAME and AGONY on this "professor: as if"...Leading others away from the TRUTH in Yeshua's death and resurrection is utterly ABOMINABLE in the sight of GOD (YHVH). All biblical accounts FURTHERMORE aquainted Y'Shua AS NOT BEING likened to AMNESIA; 1st thing he did was go to His disciples in the Upper Room. This professor does nothing but PROFESS HIS OWN FOOLISHNESS! SHAME!
Scientific method is indeed powerful but it is arrogant to say it is the most powerful tool to understand the truth. Many things "proven" by science have been found to be inaccurate and many things "debunked" by science have been found later to have solid foundations. The problem is that the scientists had closed their minds to anything but their own methods of understanding the world. An open mind is far more powerful.
Arrogant? You have the audacity to accuse science of arrogance? Arrogance is claiming that an ancient book is the inerrant and inspired word of a nonexistent being.
Sounds like you don't even have the slightest clue as to what science is. Science precludes certainty. It is a method of developing the best explanation for available information. Religion was a kind of science at one time... luckily some of us have evolved
third. "non-existent being" You are aware, are you not, that it is impossible to prove this statement even with the most stringent application of scientific method. Whether you like it or not, you have no way of knowing if there is a god or not. You're just going to have to wait until you die to find out like the rest of us.
And of course we don't know if there is or isn't any god. We don't know and cant prove if there are unicorns and fairies, trolls and pink elephants, why don't believe in those also? You see, the fact that we can't prove god is in no way proof of anything. This is not about having a winning argument by default.
That's exactly what I said. The problem is when people decide that a lack of proof in god's existence is actually proof that he doesn't exist. Just as there is no scientific proof that he exists, there is no scientific evidence that rules out his existence either. Of course the bible is not accurate, they were trying to explain the existence of the universe to a bunch of shepherds.
In other words, science is NOT perfect, is NOT infallible and is NOT the end all be all of finding the truth. Science is practices by "scientists" who are usually "human" and are therefore not perfect. To attack and insult someone for pointing this out goes beyond arrogance and settles at immaturity.
But of course that science is not perfect nor infallible, but that is what it makes it the best tool we currently have for finding out the truth. Science is about questioning itself and bringing down its own dogmas, in which it constantly succeeds, as the complete opposite of religion, which is all about not questioning and blindingly accepting.
yes but belief in a higher power does not constitute acceptance of religion. I personally feel that my spiritual life is no one else's concern and don't go to any church, nor do I accept every word of any book as true without thinking about it. I also think that to believe that life, the universe and everything is simply an accident requires far more faith than any religion.
This sort of wicked deceit is called "neutral point of view" and stands in strong opposition to everyone who speaks and everything that is written which state support or acceptance or faith in God's testimony which He's given us in the Holy Scriptures, which have stood the test of time.
Liars cannot be trusted to tell the truth and all who oppose Scripture are liars.
Jesus testified that it was easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the law to fail.
911dispatcher 9 months ago
Jesus was nailed to a cross, and his stomach was cut open (and liquid poured out). I don't think you just wake up 3 days later after that, and walk around like nothing happened just because you took some strong drugs. I'm not saying you need to believe the story of Jesus, just saying that some strong drugs won't make everything okay after your body has gone through that much trauma.
rickgut2004 9 months ago
@rickgut2004 Is it so hard to believe that a story is embellished and exaggerated over many years?
mindinclined 9 months ago
@mindinclined It is when you're an eyewitness to the resurrection as I am.
Jesus appeared to me and spoke to me in 1972 and He is indeed risen from the dead and the Scriptures are true. Furthermore, you're a fool to oppose God when you're thoroughly and completely ignorant. You know nothing of your suppositions and speculations -- you're just a blasphemer without a cause, except to deny the truth. That's the devil's job and Jesus said the whole world lies in his power. Should make you think.
911dispatcher 9 months ago
@911dispatcher You saw someone who appeared to look the same as Jesus.
Prove that you did actually see the real Jesus. Prove that anything you believe is true.
I don't believe anything that has not been objectively demonstrated by physical evidence.
Besides, you really think that what you said is going to make mindinclined think? You have no evidence to support your statements, so they will be disregarded and completely ignored.
pro4skill 6 months ago
@pro4skill What you're too dead to understand is that God is a spirit and this world is ruled by spirits. The spirits of darkness and light. Those of the light communicate light and truth and those in the light know what's going on. Those in the darkness love the darkness because their deeds are evil and lying to oneself is part and parcel of the "darkness."
You refuse to believe our testimony because your deeds are evil and you love the darkness. "Prove" to you?
LOL You're a willing fool.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@911dispatcher Interesting how you always make unfalsifiable hypotheses. The properties of what you are hypothesizing are unknown, therefore your hypothesis cannot be proved wrong.
It is OK to be afraid of dying, it is normal, and death is inevitable. I understand your need to convince yourself that you may live on after death because you cannot comprehend the idea of not having any thoughts or even a pulse after death.
By the way, if I see a physical demonstration, I will believe it.
pro4skill 6 months ago
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@pro4skill "I understand... ." If you had any understanding at all, you'd thank me or pray for me.
"if I see a physical demonstration, I will believe it."
I seriously doubt that. Furthermore, you're unlikely to see anything. God hides from fools... and laughs at them.
You want God to act for you? Show Him the honor He's due FROM your heart.
If you understand propriety and due respect to natural authority, then why are you playing so stupid with the REAL thing?
Consider your ways. He sees.
911dispatcher 5 months ago
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911dispatcher 5 months ago
@mindinclined Only fools will ignore the mountains of evidence for the veracity of Scripture and substitute the fantasies of their minds and consider it reasonable and responsible.
Servants of satan will go far beyond that and fabricate mountains of lies to deceive people.
The Bible is its own best witness and a true heart will hear God speak.
Those seeking to justify themselves will find all the excuses they want to deny God's Word and when Judgment comes, they'll see they have no excuses.
911dispatcher 5 months ago
Michael Persinger, a christian.... hum! hum! Don't believe that Wayneoss! Or are you trying to launch an urban legend like the one forged by the muslims who proclaimed that the oceanographer "Commandant Custeau" converted to islam...
athingofbeauty 9 months ago
I would just like to take this time to say I am glad I do not throw away 10-20 grand on an education to hear professors like this idiot talk about speculative shit he really has no grasp of. Besides clearly having not read the bible the nonsense you speak of sir is astounding. Everyone of those kids is now dumber for hearing you speak and I hope just out of the goodness of your hear you donate some of that fat professor paycheck to charity cause your a fraud buddy.
jspecaspec23 9 months ago
funnily enough this man became a christian not long after doing this talk, our family knows his.seems he finally did find the truth.
wayneoss 10 months ago
@wayneoss LOL. Nice try.
mindinclined 10 months ago 4
@mindinclined haha, maybe i was being prophetic?...lol
wayneoss 10 months ago
@wayneoss Nice try. He's my thesis supervisor and does not believe in "god"
summoningifrit 9 months ago
The wages of sin is DEATH...not drugs. This guy doesn't present any "evidence" by the way; he simply states that a drug existed 2,000 years ago. I don't see the big deal... Jesus wasn't a magician or an illusionist; He's the Son of God and didn't need to 'fake His death'.
To address a previous comment from ch40z.... the historical record of Josephus is RIFE with references to Christ, but I'm sure that fact escapes you.
ActorRyanFelton 10 months ago
@ActorRyanFelton You neglect to mention that Josephus was born after Jesus died... hardly can his work be considered primary evidence if he did not even exist at the time of Jesus' supposed life. His work is also rife with forgery and additions by monks long after his life.
This video shows how easily one could fake death, in order to fool people. Oral traditions are prone to systematic distortion and exaggeration.
We are all son's of god - but 'Jesus' is just a myth.
mindinclined 10 months ago
@mindinclined Too many drugs keep you from using your brain? Josephus lived over 1900 years ago and was far closer to eyewitnesses than lying scorners such as yourself and has long been considered a very credible historian and very many things which he said have been confirmed and verified... yet you feel compelled to open your mouth with worthless nonsense and finish it with a blatant lie. Your user name should be "liesinclined" since spreading nonsense, deceit and lies is your agenda.
911dispatcher 9 months ago
@ActorRyanFelton
Many people in history, have thought they were the "son of god"...or any reincarnation, etc. etc. etc...it's old hat, and was, even during the time of jesus...he was nothing special, just another psychotic individual with a split personality complex.
ilovewiki 3 months ago
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ActorRyanFelton 10 months ago
I agree with nazree7 or whatevr that name is he was stabed with a spere people stop leting the world and satin steal ur mind and life the more u read the bible and pray u just start 2 no its truue i know he was and still is and always will be lord and savior and no 1 could survive being hung on a cross staving stab beatin torutured come on now
1krystalgoon1 11 months ago
@1krystalgoon1 How can you prove he was stabbed? or that he even really existed? The historical record is seriously lacking in support for the Jesus myth... and if you cite the bible, you are just fooling yourself because most of it was written starting from the at least 100 years after his supposed death. Taking the bible as proof of anything is about equivalent to taking the works of Dr. Theodor Seuss Geisel as proof of the existence of the Lorax...
ch40z7h30ry 11 months ago
@1krystalgoon1 P.S. I don't know why I even bothered writing that, trying to speak in terms of logic and fact to a believer is usually about as effective as trying to teach calculus to a doorknob...
ch40z7h30ry 11 months ago
Jesus died on the cross 4 our sins and got up and he is lord king savoior he will give u peace from this world he wasnt on drugs or the peole who saw him it relly happen and hes real so is satin which road will u chose ? plz choose jesus god our savior he died 4 us and if u dont belive u will end up empty with no peace god is peace and long story short he ddidnt take drugs the facts r iin the bible
1krystalgoon1 11 months ago
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VowOneWisdom 1 year ago
@VowOneWisdom
On what bases do you make such an assumption? Sounds to me like you're just throwing words around in an effort to make a point that doesn't exist.
Spetsop 1 year ago
This guy is useless.
VowOneWisdom 1 year ago
misterdeeeep 1 year ago
You must consider yourself a Christian. What would Jesus say about cutting off his finger?
TheKate1945 1 year ago
This is maximum stupid. He should loose that finger he raises as a punishment and also be banned from teaching rubbish.
isleofyew1 1 year ago
@isleofyew1
"Teaching rubbish"? "Rubbish" because it's scientific or because it goes against your ancient beliefs?
Spetsop 1 year ago
@Spetsop Rubbish because it's looking for a far fetched "possible" explanation for this part of the Jesus myth. We all know it's just the rising of the sun after winter solstice, the rising from the dead. I do not hold any "ancient beliefs" and I do not try marrying modern science to an ancient story like in this video.
isleofyew1 1 year ago
@isleofyew1
I wouldn't say it's 'far fetched', given the fact that this drug was known to people at that time and drugs were routinely used to alter one's consciousness... especially for religious purposes.
Some might say that the astronomical explanation you provided is 'far fetched', due to the fact that most believe that Jesus did exist.
My apologies for the outburst though... most of the people I meet on here want science out when it contradicts their faith.
Spetsop 1 year ago
@Spetsop I do not accept the little proof some present for a historical Jesus. The idea that somewhere on the line this mythical savior got a special drug so to survive torture, piercing with a spear and such, is looking for a way of explanation that helps disguise the fact that it was just a fairy tale. The Buddha was not a real historical figure also and that maybe one of the roots for the invention of a Jesus story. (It has been proven that ALL "original" Buddha sites are later fakes).
isleofyew1 1 year ago
@isleofyew1
I'm not arguing with you that it's a fairy tale, it's a story used by countless other religions that predate Jesus. I'm just saying that this is something that actually happens when this drug is used on certain individuals.
Spetsop 1 year ago
@Spetsop So this video is rubbish except for the mentioning of some drug that was know, he says!
isleofyew1 1 year ago
@isleofyew1
lol the point of this video was not to refute or support the myth of Jesus, it was to explain how the drug works... it's actually the opposite of what you said, Jesus was just mentioned briefly, while the main topic was the drug... just like the entire lecture was: "Psychotropic Drugs and Nature of Consciousness"
Spetsop 1 year ago
@Spetsop I don't care what the whole lecture was about. It's the bit called "Jesus resurrection and drugs". This exert clearly suggests that Jesus Christ could have used this drug what would possibly make his resurrection factual. Total rubbish it is linking a fairy tale to a chemical, not to help sell the chemical but the imaginary tale. A fairy tale that brain damages people ever since it conception. Causing hypocritical delusions and psychosis all over the world.
isleofyew1 1 year ago
@isleofyew1
Well, then your issue should be with the title of this video... because this is simply a segment of the overall presentation! The whole Jesus thing is an example of how this drug could have been used, so that the public understands better (because, once again most people believe Jesus was real). It's an analogy! You wouldn't have said anything about this lecture if the last 40 seconds were cut out.
Spetsop 1 year ago
@Spetsop Indoctrinated people believe in Jesus indeed + they lack the insight and imagination that such lies can be invented, supported and used for so many century's for power without much hassle. Catholicism is established evil of the most sophisticated kind with masses of naive believers willing to die for what them hypocrites think is good. People don't have any idea about the top level corruption + old boys networking of politicians, notary, royals, cardinals and other such Jesus vermin.
isleofyew1 1 year ago
@isleofyew1
Well, at least we agree on that.
P.S. Just to be clear, this proff or me, do not advocate religion, quite the opposite actually.
Spetsop 1 year ago
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@isleofyew1
"A fairy tale that brain damages people ever since it conception. Causing hypocritical delusions and psychosis all over the world." What is that even supposed to mean? :/
Spetsop 1 year ago
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TheWolfTimmington 1 year ago
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TheWolfTimmington 1 year ago
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This is ignorant. When Jesus was pierced with the Centurion's spear, blood and water came out. Such separation is a sign of physical death.
Google: "Josh McDowell," and,
"Dr. Alex Metherall wraps up His look at how the Roman Executioners left NO room for any other conclusion than the TOTAL DEMISE of their crucifixion victims."
The destiny of your soul depends on what you do with Jesus.
TheWolfTimmington 1 year ago
This is ignorant. When Jesus was pierced with the Centurion's spear, blood and water came out. Such separation is a sign of physical death.
Google: "Josh McDowell," and,
"Dr. Alex Metherall wraps up His look at how the Roman Executioners left NO room for any other conclusion than the TOTAL DEMISE of their crucifixion victims."
The destiny of your soul depends on what you do with Jesus.
TheWolfTimmington 1 year ago
Jesus did not die of hypothermia... This is not any explanation to the resurrection of Jesus.
nazra7 1 year ago
@nazra7
Persinger didn't say "Jesus died of hypothermia", he didn't even say that Jesus died at all.
Spetsop 1 year ago
@Spetsop Persinger is implying that the resurrection can be explained because of this drug, which the person shows death like symptoms of hypothermia, thus Jesus would have been seen as suffering from hypothermia is this theory had any ground, but that is false.
nazra7 1 year ago
@nazra7
"Death-like hypothermia" doesn't simply mean that the person shows "death like symptoms of hypothermia", it means that to the outsider the person APPEARS to be dead, with the most readily observed symptom of hypothermia (a cold dead body). There is also extremely low heart beat and respiratory rate (which is ok when the person is hypothermic because the metabolism slows down drastically in a cold body, like in the case of suspended animation).
Spetsop 1 year ago
@nazra7
So Jesus, or any other person with temporal lobe lability, would have been seen as if they were dead (and at those times, without modern technology, it was impossible to tell if the person was still alive when they exhibited the above symptoms, there are lots of cases from as recent as just 100 years ago when people were buried alive because they were thought to be dead simply because of external observation).
Spetsop 1 year ago
@Spetsop You really think Jesus was still alive after being flogged to the bone, beat to the ground, stuck with thorns in his head, having to carry his cross while being flogged, two large nails thrusted through his wrists and ankles, left out on the cross for hours, stabbed with a spear, and entombed for 3 days with no food or water?
nazra7 1 year ago
@nazra7
If he even existed... yep! The Bible has tons of contradictions and exaggerations in it... so more likely than not, the whole Jesus story was blown out of proportion too... once again, if he even did exist (look at my and isleofyew1 conversation).
In modern times monks in Tibet get buried for days to put their meditative abilities to the test, and survive. You have people who survive for days under earthquake rubble. Well you get the point.
Spetsop 1 year ago
@Spetsop That's a red herring. And the passages of the crucifixion were proven accurate because of our knowledge about how the Romans conducted them. Let's assume he did exist, now please answer: did Jesus survive the crucifixion and entombment while only suffering death like symptoms of hypothermia? If not then this theory has no ground.
Also, those who saw Jesus after being resurrected saw him with a glorious body that they wanted too, not one battered and bloody.
nazra7 1 year ago
@nazra7
What's a "red herring"? My comment on how people in modern times can withstand extreme conditions (like Jesus supposedly did) and still survive? Or that he probably didn't even exist?
The Bible ITSELF contradicts the story of crucifixion and resurrection! In terms of times and witnesses!
"death like symptoms of hypothermia"... ONCE again. It's 'death-like hypothermia' and it's NOT just this one "symptom" it's a number of things!
Spetsop 1 year ago
@nazra7
Hypothermia is just something that is most observable from the first glance/touch of the body. There are numerous cases in medicine (before proper techniques of evaluating whether or not the person IS actually dead), especially at the turn of the century and before, of people getting buried alive specifically BECAUSE they were thought to be dead! And only later, when coffins were opened, there were scratches on the walls, bodies turned the other way, etc. showing that ppl were alive.
Spetsop 1 year ago
@Spetsop You complain about me trying to prove a portion of the Bible while using the Bible as ONE of the references. Yet Persinger is trying to disprove the Bible using the Bible as one of the resources.
And yes, if you're aiming to prove something in the Bible, you have to use the Bible as one of the resources, if you don't then you won't know what it is you're trying to prove.
nazra7 1 year ago
@Spetsop "There are numerous cases in medicine"
This has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus was punished in such a way that no man would survive to be able to have such a case.
nazra7 1 year ago
@nazra7
Bah, seriously? It has everything to do with it! It shows how easy it was at those times to mistakenly assume that the person is dead!
And once again, the Bible is an exaggeration of events (a lot of which are FICTIONAL), and in a lot of cases it even contradicts itself (as in the case of Jesus resurrection).
This "Jesus" story goes WAY back, before Christianity was even established! There are numerous accounts of other prophets with the same birth/death stories!
Spetsop 1 year ago
@nazra7
I don't take the Bible as historical document. It's full of contradictions and fictional stories. You're trying to prove the story in the Bible by going TO the Bible for reference, it doesn't work like that.
Spetsop 1 year ago
Ah Michael Persinger.. any information on where we can see this entire talk?
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@givebirthathome you bet, search goolge video for persinger. It's one of the first videos.
mindinclined 1 year ago
ohh Jese got Drugs... he use drug?
jnnycliff 1 year ago
Jesus was not an Essene, and he definitely died on the cross.
LittleSn00py 1 year ago
@LittleSn00py You believe Jesus is based on an actual person?
mindinclined 1 year ago
@mindinclined Yes. This is what mainstream history is saying, last time I checked.
LittleSn00py 1 year ago
@LittleSn00py Hmmm, and I suppose it's just coincidence that everything we know about him can be found in ancient mythology? It's like people 2000 years from now looking at our movies and calling them history - as if we worshipped Superman and James Bond. Ridiculous.
mindinclined 1 year ago
@mindinclined No similarities can be found in ancient mythology. This is established pseudohistory. The only thing that is ridiculous here is your readiness to believe anything what anti-religious kooks say on the internet. I prefer people with credentials to the people with tin foil hats.
LittleSn00py 1 year ago
@LittleSn00py LOL, I was expecting you to tell me the Devil had planted those stories in advance (the official view of the catholic church). So if even the catholic church recognizes these facts and you don't, I gotta ask... do you wear those foil hats yourself to protect yourself from outside information? I don't want to call you a liar, so I'm just going to assume you are uneducated. Please research Adonis, Osiris, Dionysus, and Tammuz. Another great resource is "Hero With A Thousand Faces".
mindinclined 1 year ago
@mindinclined Show me which document of the Catholic Church states that the Devil planted the story in advance.
Joseph Campbell? He is a Freudian/Jungian New Age kook, whose theses were put to sleep long time ago. Keep wearing that tin foil hat.
LittleSn00py 1 year ago
@LittleSn00py Try Justin Martyr's 'First Apology' for starters. I will take a 'Jungian Kook' over child-molesting murderers and AIDS promoters anytime. I guess we believe those who are like us.
mindinclined 1 year ago
@mindinclined Justin Marytr's 'First Apology' is not a document of the Catholic Church, nor is it used as presenting the official stance of the Catholic Church. You made this up. Martyr's Apology also does not support your kooky, fringe view, which shows that you have not even read the work in question. This makes you a liar.
The remaining hysterical statements show how inadequate you are.
LittleSn00py 1 year ago
@LittleSn00py Ahhh the last stance of an cornered fool: denial. You started by claiming that the story of Jesus is entirely unique, now you claim one of the Church's father's is not a church father. Truly a man of no shame.
I admit my words were a little over-the-top, but seriously, you are a follower of one of the most reprehensible organizations of people that have ever walked this earth. I have no respect for your or anyone that blindly follows them or their ideas. It is sickening.
mindinclined 1 year ago
@mindinclined You can call me names how much you want and straw man me, but you still have not established your fringe nonsense.
The repeated hysterical descriptions and accusations of the Catholic Church are typical of a conspiracy follower.
LittleSn00py 1 year ago
@LittleSn00py LOL, you call me fringe and a conspiracy follower, while attacking me for name-calling and straw man? Did you get your degree in politics?
I attacked your mythology and your ideas. That's called argument.
mindinclined 1 year ago
Although I am no Xtian I am going to play jesus's advocate: if he was drugged while on the cross, explain the wound in his side and the centurion affirming to pilate he was dead assuming the gospels are accurate. Also explain the image of his apparent resurrection on that burial shroud now in Turin.
EdM021 1 year ago
There's always mysteries, you'll never answer WHY, just HOW. A description rather than a solution to describing its TRUE meaning. For me real truth lies in love and compassion.
21jmeff 1 year ago
I tried this and pulled a cool "Resurrection" on my friends!!
leeroynaggins 1 year ago
Oh for God's sake Persinger, shut the hell up. These kind of theories have been abandoned long ago. Stick to your own field.
squeehunter 2 years ago
Yikes. What are you atheists so afraid of? And no, I'm not a Christian, either. But you guys are a rabid as the born-agains! Proof that the voice of reason comes from neither camp.
enoughalready2012 2 years ago
Agreed. It can be that way. Atheists claim to be free thinkers but they're mostly just anti-religious to a fault. In no way open minded or scientific.
BTW I'm not religious either.
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
Could you point to the rabid anti-religiosity in this video? It is merely a hypothesis being thrown out there.
I admire how the spineless, no-stance, free thinkers like to sluff off everything on a whim and then claim to be 'open-minded'.
mindinclined 2 years ago
Umm I wasn't commenting on the video, I think Persinger is brilliant (though I do think this is a bit of a stretch). I was agreeing with that guy, but should have said SOME atheists. I find that it's most true for the quasi-educated internetz atheists. Besides, not entirely sure if he meant the video either. He may have meant the comments. :)
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
My bad, and yes I mostly agree!
mindinclined 2 years ago
@mindinclined we have had so many advancements, why can't science make any progress in thins like humility, understanding, or love.
21jmeff 1 year ago
@21jmeff because those things aren't scientific. You have to be able to measure something in order to apply scientific method. Those things are the realm of philosophy, which has in my opinion, advanced those very things.
mindinclined 1 year ago
Check out the movie The Serpent and the Rainbow
proliteriate 2 years ago
Not even dude......Mark only started writing about the event 70 years later? Come on? Can you say myth, because the people needed one? Welcome to the dark ages, people stopped asking questions, and science died.
bigboy45454545 2 years ago
Seriously, I just don't have faith to believe in this crap. It's all BS by Atheist trying to demonize religion and the probably of this actually ocurring is close to zero.
I am not Christian by the way.
cooolway 2 years ago
Now there's a good argument! And probably the PROBABILITY is much higher than zero, certainly higher than the probability that he died and rose from the dead.
The most likely scenario of all is that the whole story is fairy tale. But if you don't get the point, don't make brain-dead arrogant comments like that, you look like a moron.
mindinclined 2 years ago
I am sorry for that typo, I meant probability.
The fact is that the chances of what Dr. Persinger described is very low and also a person rising from the dead is also very low (lower than former) .
I think most Atheist become blind to logic and reason as emotions overcomes them. You are replacing one story with another story, and making it more valid to reason simply because the latter story has more probability than the former, even though both are close to zero.
cooolway 2 years ago
Again, I am not replacing one story with another. It is providing an alternative. What this shows is that even if witnesses passed on a story and were truly amazed by what they thought was a resurrection, it could have been faked. It further decreases the plausibility of the resurrection - rather than speak as though this were some kind of historical fact.
mindinclined 2 years ago
unfortunately for this theory, the symptoms Jesus underwent reveal he likely died due to heart failure. so therefore, he actually DIED. another scientific theory trying to explain Jesus' death down the drain.
supermariofj 3 years ago
Symptoms? Heart Failure? Could you please direct me to the medical authority that has written this and the passage it is based on?
Not that it matters, what this theory suggests is that the whole story is a sham, that a fraud caused people to write a bogus account (most likely with invented details). So whatever 'symptoms' you refer to, they are irrelevant. People can write whatever they please. The point is simply that miracles can be faked.
mindinclined 3 years ago
part2
There are 1200 different christian denominations just in the US. If it's god's word evidently he isn't being very clear. To me the story of jesus dying and resurrecting is about ego death which we can achieve by eating his "flesh" ie. an entheogen. Do THIS in remembrance of me.
tonypeters69 3 years ago
That's all bullshit. Jesus is a myth, to take the story literally is to miss the point. The old testament was borrowed from Babylonian mythology. The new testament is a conglomeration of different writings that were edited over and over and over. As far as "holy books" go it's one of the weakest.
tonypeters69 3 years ago
Got any support for that or is it just conjecture? "Holy books" aside and "mythology" aside, what does the book say? Compared to other "suggestions for life" it has been accepted by more people than any other known to mankind (save perhaps the Buddhist writings .... but wait. Buddha neglected anything of permanence, including a written word! Precisely why it changes across cultures.)
You are telling a large part of humanity that they are all fools. if you're that smart, we can't even debate.
jeditsuyoshi 3 years ago
jedit- Yes, if you believe the bible is the literal truth you're a fool. I assume a lot of christians understand that it's myth and metaphor. My main point is we really don't know what we are or how we got here but I'm sure it's not as simple as the old/new testament story. As far as suggestions for life there are thousands of better books, as far as how life started it's a mystery, maybe outside our comprehension as mere humans. part 2
tonypeters69 3 years ago
oh the good appeal to the masses! How logically powerful! What a moron Galileo was trying to convince 99% of the population that the earth wasn't the center of the universe! He couldn't have been right against all of those people! No way, no how. So jedit? Does the sun revolve around the earth then?
mindinclined 3 years ago
Or maybe the earth only started revolving around the earth once the opinion swayed above 50% in favor of the sun hypothesis? Until then, Galileo was wrong. How kind of us to prove him right.
mindinclined 3 years ago
So... which one of those fishermen was a chemist?
Aside from other things: eg. Romans knew how to kill someone. They were rather good at it. Stabbing someone to make sure they are dead is pretty good assurance.
Even then, had a guy NOT died after the scourging Christ (or any robber) received, walking around afterwards with those wounds would hardly inspire resurrection theology.
You won't believe in resurrection, but you put faith in spontaneous life theory of evolution? What logic is that?
jeditsuyoshi 3 years ago
All of YOUR information comes from one book. The one the Christians wrote and rewrote themselves. There is NO other proof of any thing in the bible. No contemporary historian, nothing. You can't even argue using logic or critical thinking, only "faith".
tonypeters69 3 years ago
"There is NO other proof of any thing in the bible."
Hmm..Josephus, Pliny the Younger, I could list a number of contemporary outside sources which testify to the historicity of the Bible if you'd like. . .
OgadaNosaFasu 3 years ago
LOL. Evolution can be observed, deduced, and broken down into simple chemistry. Resurrection is supported by ancient scribblings, far removed from the delusional epileptics that mumbled them. Yes I like my logic just fine.
mindinclined 3 years ago
Um..actually the gospel accounts were written within the lifetimes of the disciples, and counterintiuitive to 21st century thinking, in the ancient world oral tradition was used and viewed as a much more reliable than written documents. The accounts were written down after Christians began to be persecuted and killed. Although to your credit I think it is naive to say that evolution didn't occur. The thing I disagree with is the antisupernatural bias.
OgadaNosaFasu 3 years ago
So this just means that BOTH written and verbal reports were likely seriously flawed. Your point suggests that the original gospel accounts are not even as reliable as oral retelling. I think that alone casts serious doubt.
I would understand a problem with antisupernatural bias if the evidence for supernaturalism was on the same ground as materialism. What you refer to as 'bias' is merely an appeal to the strongest of evidence.
mindinclined 3 years ago
I think that a more fair evaluation of my efforts is an attempt to overcome supernatural bias. Which I believe is merely an appeal to ignorance, positing supernatural forces only where understanding is not complete. Besides ignorance, the supernatural argument is on extremely shaky positive evidencial grounds.
mindinclined 3 years ago
This definition of "Evolution" cannot in fact be observed. Adaptation and change over time may be observed, we have no problem with this whatsoever. Its the presumption of "nothing" changing by chance into rational beings that is not witnessed nor has the science to support that we do not agree with.
Ones logic is not good logic if it doesn't agree with all the facts - just as mathematics that doesn't come out to the right sum. Science cannot make absolute statements on non-empirical matters.
jeditsuyoshi 3 years ago
Nobody says "nothing changed by chance into rational beings". Matter, chemistry, and biology did. Only theists posit something from nothing. I maintain that the universe is simply in constant flux. Occasionally resulting in yes, life.
And nobody can make absolute statements on non-empirical matters. Well they can, but it doesn't mean anything.
mindinclined 3 years ago
So, you think "delusional epileptics" wrote the Bible? You seemingly also apply this to all "ancient scribblings."
In that case, by your logic, Plato, Lucretius and Marcus Aurelius were also scribbling, delusional epileptics?
...
Or does that only refer to those who you, yourself, don't happen to agree with?
jeditsuyoshi 3 years ago
Again putting words in my mouth. I am going to call you straw-man killer. I am referring to individuals that claim burning bushes spoke to them and angels gave them messages. Plato wrote about some philosopher that spoke to people. I appreciate the attempt at equating them but, be serious, you look like a fool.
mindinclined 3 years ago
Jesus had it easy compared to a lot of the veterans coming back from Iraq, some of whom will have to spend the rest of their lives looking like Dr. Phibes. Iraq veterans have come back with amputated limbs, paralysis, brain damage, 3rd degree burns over much of their bodies, major organ failures, parts of their faces blown off. If the Romans had done some of that stuff to Jesus so that he looked like a Halloween costume when he "rose from the dead," I doubt christians would hold him in such awe.
advancedatheist 3 years ago
I agree with that - dying is easier than a living death. And stab wounds are easier than half blown off faces. But dead is still dead. Amputated limbs and brain damage are horrid things, things most of us are blessed not to live with. Its not just soldiers that must live with them though. We must be forever thankful to those willing to lay down their lives (living or dying) for our freedoms; physical or spiritual.
Lazarus was dead some four days - I am pretty sure he was pretty foul as well.
jeditsuyoshi 3 years ago
Ever wonder why God hates amputees? He heals sick people and raises people from the dead. Somehow though, can't regrow a limb. What a biased a**hole
mindinclined 3 years ago
I wonder where this guy got his inspiration:
"Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise."
- Adolf Hitler
mindinclined 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Straight from a human that recently lived: "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
mindinclined 3 years ago
there's no proof that jesus was given anything on the cross
its was also impossible for his apostles to give him any drugs science he was arrested and tortured for days while they all ran away and hide. they were not present when he was crucified
plus Romans usually pierced the sides of crucified bodies to confirm death
jesus was stabbed by a spear, witnesses attest to water coming out before blood (a sign of death) then he was buried. even if he was drugged he would have bleed to death
godscuttingyoudown 3 years ago
Proof you say? Hah! Don't you find it odd that there is this big elaborate story, witnesses, and earth shaking scenario but yet...
Not a single historian that was writing during this period had recorded anything about it. And...
The Romans, who kept very strict legal records, have nothing written about it either.
You have some pretty wild claims yourself there. It seems your standards for proof are radically skewed.
mindinclined 3 years ago
Well, for one, Palestine wasn't exactly considered "big news" so there isn't much of anything from Roman about that era. Certainly about some upstart, dead or alive.
Two, by that same logic, isn't it odd that out of all the reports that it DID happen, ie, the how many thousand copies we have from Gospels and other reasonably reliable reports, that there isn't ONE refuting it? Some one was likely to say, 'Hey! I was there! It didn't happen!' But we don't have that.
Just using your own logic.
jeditsuyoshi 3 years ago
He forgot to mention that 'Dead-like' features include breathing, urinating on yourself, seizures, and inadvertent shaking; hardly what onlookers would consider a dead person. After he 'recovered' he would have further exhibited seizures, loss of mobility, and memory. Conjecture.
jumpwedge 3 years ago
there is no better way to put it
plan4urlife 3 years ago
I respect Persinger and his work in the field of Neuroscience, but those of you who are listening in on this bit of lecture do not understand that his classes do involve controversial material. That's the point behind the disclaimers he has us sign when we take the classes. I'm kind of discomforted that this kind of material actually made it onto youtube. You're supposed to pay tuition to hear this stuff. Come on mindinclined... Save this stuff for the people who pay for it.
kpunkk 3 years ago
Sure, I'll fly down and take a class right away... what an a-hole I am.
mindinclined 3 years ago
Personally, I'm glad you posted this. The people who think the wealthy and powerful should have a monopoly on knowledge are tyrants.
bamboo4tameshigiri 3 years ago
what do wealthy and powerful have to do with anything? and you call THIS knowledge?
jeditsuyoshi 3 years ago
It was a response to someone saying this knowledge should have been restricted to the class room, moron. And YES it is knowledge. ANYONE who has had ANY experience with 5HT2a agonists knows that "revelations" is a fucking acid trip described by bronze age minds.
bamboo4tameshigiri 3 years ago
Religion and science can co-exist. Its just the same thing...but different.
kawuabonga 3 years ago
If that drug is so powerful, why is it not used in medical science today for the dead? Read "THE CASE FOR THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS, by Habermas and Licona.
AlbertLeviValdez 3 years ago
This guys theory that the use of Reserpine explains the resurrection of Jesus is completely unfounded. Mark 15:23 states that they offered Jesus a bitter drink (probably wine mixed with myrrh) and that He REFUSED IT!
So the question of what it was is irrelevant. This man's statements regarding this matter are an insult to the scientific method and theology. Don't allow someone to force feed you "truth" just because it sounds good.
gr8simboni 3 years ago
LOL, yes and I guess if you didn't take the bible as the inerrant word of God, then you might think "Hey, thats kinda suspicious"
mindinclined 3 years ago
hahahah...hah. this is scientific mythic literalism! And reductionism of course.
He is trying to pin down an answer through his discipline.
A moree broader mind knows that the 'rising from the dead' is an entheogenic metaphorical experience, and is also astrotheological
dont dont dont dont believe the HYPE!
zezt 4 years ago
what about all the stuff the embalmed him with?wouldnt that suffocate him?
MachiavelliFan25 4 years ago
So the syngergism of the drugs put him into a deep consiousness and healed his wounds and the gash he took to the his right side? thats harder to believe than the resurrection itself
ectoplasmicentity 4 years ago
Wow, i'm not even gonna bother...
mindinclined 3 years ago
if the cruxifiction is a historical fact (it's accepted by virtually every certified scholar), then the swoon theory is rendered implausible.
DiMagRocks 3 years ago
Fascinating. I've never met someone that has read every certified scholar's work... Are you sure you aren't the reincarnated Jesus himself? It would be bold say that the very of existence of Jesus is a historical fact... you sir have gigantic kahoonas
PinceAli 3 years ago
Well, no, I did not mean literally EVERY scholar (perhaps there are a few, such as Robert Price and Richard Carrier.)
But if you're going to evaluate the criteria for ancient facts, it qualifies. And I DON'T know of more than three scholars (of which I can think of, Carrier, Price and Doherty) who don't accept the existence of a historical Jesus. It's not really up for debate, and if you can name other scholars, that'd be great.
Why you threw a hissy fit is beyond me.
DiMagRocks 3 years ago
I can only say, without the hope of resurrection, there is just no hope at all. Living, dying, joy as well as agony and pain all are for nothing.
Libertas78 4 years ago
A lack of a resurrection provides appreciation, awe, and motivation to not take this life for granted. Living, dying, joy all take on new meaning. Perhaps the problem is your lack imagination - Your God drains it.
mindinclined 3 years ago
Why would the creative force of the universe and all that exists within it drain imagination or creativity? I respectfully disagree with you. My God is the source and nutrition of creativity. Also, while I can understand your perspective of how a lack of resurrection could incite a greater appreciation of life, it could possibly dampen the experience by seeing life as a destination, not a journey. It also considerably negates the hope of an afterlife.
gr8simboni 3 years ago
amazing prof and real genius
ask222 4 years ago
amazing prof and real genius
ask222 4 years ago
he shows the existence of that which the messengers of god or gods energy may use , he shows the real existence of our receptivness to these forces already in our brain before the technology and you slag him off. for some reason the proof that this what you believe is real is a threat to your beleif system maybey becos you have had none of your own direct experiences. understand that just because we can cause these experiences doesnt mean that something of a higher truth doesnt use them to .
KH6778 4 years ago
Dr. Persinger is a great prof!
Blahcetera 4 years ago
First of all, I didn't accuse "science" of anything. As you may or may not be aware, "science" is not a sentient being and is therefore incapable of emotions such as arrogance. Second, I never at any time even mentioned a holy book of any kind. But you were too busy thinking of ad hominum attacks to notice this. Key word here is "available information." sometimes "science" forgets that "available information" does not mean "all information" and attacks anyone who disagrees. part 1
hibraisil 4 years ago
Not to mention, Yeshua REFUSED the gall & hissop (that bitter drink that u are painfully uneducated about its very name or substance). HE REFUSED IT. This guy needs a heavy warning about his UNETHICAL tugging of one's faith out from under their feet. BS course, whatta fool.
78sEVEn78 4 years ago
Thanks Doc. But I find a greater lack of ethics in the brainwashing bull literature that you profess as history. This theory is just much more plausible than yours so your pissed off. Get over it crybaby.
mindinclined 4 years ago
This guy is right about one thing. The bible is does have a lot of bullshit in it. No offense but even if it was written under divine inspiration by prophets, they were still human and as we well know, nothing humans have ever done is perfect; not science and not the bible.
hibraisil 4 years ago
SHAME and AGONY on this "professor: as if"...Leading others away from the TRUTH in Yeshua's death and resurrection is utterly ABOMINABLE in the sight of GOD (YHVH). All biblical accounts FURTHERMORE aquainted Y'Shua AS NOT BEING likened to AMNESIA; 1st thing he did was go to His disciples in the Upper Room. This professor does nothing but PROFESS HIS OWN FOOLISHNESS! SHAME!
78sEVEn78 4 years ago
Scientific method is indeed powerful but it is arrogant to say it is the most powerful tool to understand the truth. Many things "proven" by science have been found to be inaccurate and many things "debunked" by science have been found later to have solid foundations. The problem is that the scientists had closed their minds to anything but their own methods of understanding the world. An open mind is far more powerful.
hibraisil 4 years ago
Arrogant? You have the audacity to accuse science of arrogance? Arrogance is claiming that an ancient book is the inerrant and inspired word of a nonexistent being.
Sounds like you don't even have the slightest clue as to what science is. Science precludes certainty. It is a method of developing the best explanation for available information. Religion was a kind of science at one time... luckily some of us have evolved
mindinclined 4 years ago
third. "non-existent being" You are aware, are you not, that it is impossible to prove this statement even with the most stringent application of scientific method. Whether you like it or not, you have no way of knowing if there is a god or not. You're just going to have to wait until you die to find out like the rest of us.
hibraisil 4 years ago
And of course we don't know if there is or isn't any god. We don't know and cant prove if there are unicorns and fairies, trolls and pink elephants, why don't believe in those also? You see, the fact that we can't prove god is in no way proof of anything. This is not about having a winning argument by default.
Djnti 4 years ago
That's exactly what I said. The problem is when people decide that a lack of proof in god's existence is actually proof that he doesn't exist. Just as there is no scientific proof that he exists, there is no scientific evidence that rules out his existence either. Of course the bible is not accurate, they were trying to explain the existence of the universe to a bunch of shepherds.
hibraisil 4 years ago
In other words, science is NOT perfect, is NOT infallible and is NOT the end all be all of finding the truth. Science is practices by "scientists" who are usually "human" and are therefore not perfect. To attack and insult someone for pointing this out goes beyond arrogance and settles at immaturity.
hibraisil 4 years ago
But of course that science is not perfect nor infallible, but that is what it makes it the best tool we currently have for finding out the truth. Science is about questioning itself and bringing down its own dogmas, in which it constantly succeeds, as the complete opposite of religion, which is all about not questioning and blindingly accepting.
Djnti 4 years ago
yes but belief in a higher power does not constitute acceptance of religion. I personally feel that my spiritual life is no one else's concern and don't go to any church, nor do I accept every word of any book as true without thinking about it. I also think that to believe that life, the universe and everything is simply an accident requires far more faith than any religion.
hibraisil 4 years ago