I don't mean to cause offence- but this is bloody dangerous.
Firstly, Why blame the BHPA for accidents and say they are unsafe- How good schools are have nothing to do with the BHPA. I fly with a very safe school where eveyone completes their training at their own paste- we go by the BHPA training. The only cause for accidents is normally pilot error or equipment.
Secondly, I can ground handle in windy conditions better than this. All this video shows is how not to do it.
Jade What a lot of crap! The bhpa have injured & killed (directly & indirectly many thousands!) 'Safe School' HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED AT THE BHPA INJURY & DEATH RATES!!!! They had YET ANOTHER ONE LAST WEEK!!!
RE 'BETTER'... PROVE IT! Just rember to make sure your will is up to date first! I've been hearing this same sort of crap from the bhpa funders/supporters since before their last 80+ DEATHS.... wake up and smell what your wallowing in!
i agree the bhpa is a rip off thay look after there own cfi s as i had a crash in spain and i reported it to them 3 week later found out he should have done it 48 hours after it happened . he sold me an ellus3 XL when i should have been on an ellus3 L i was 98kg all up on a wing 100-130kg in spain in 40 deg heat . it was like trying to control pitbull on heat . thus i smashed into the ground crushing my L1 . the bhpa look after there own .
'Supermax'? I could not find any (relevant) refrence....?
Mind you I'm not sure that a video demonstrating just how EASY it is to stay SAFE in VERY strong conditions can be regarded by any resonably minded pilot as 'Hilarious'..... Of course in the case of the UK we DO have a bunch of nutters known as the BHPA who find it acceptiable to charge 'pilots' £1,300 for 'training' which see a pilot 'rated' with as (AND I QUOTE!) 'As much as 30 mins airtime by the end of training'
Try a search on You Tube for Supermax 1 or 2 - PG films. I'm sure you didn't mean your clip to be funny Murray, but it is. Not a bad thing by any means......
Hi zekezero12345 I found the comedy clip you were refering to.... but as it has no relevance to my video clip which is all about SAFETY in very strong conditions it's hard to see why you would choose to mention it!
Brakes. NO! A very LARGE number of 'normal' trained PG pilots, over the 20+ years of the sport have been injured (or killed) by trying to control ('kill') the wing in winds of even 1/2 this strength!
I spend a LOT of time with RE-training students to STOP the UNsafe 'Regression' 1st trained habit of pulling brakes!
'Safety Risers' are wing dependant, in 3 riser designs they are ALWAYS the C's, on 4 riser gliders they can be C's OR (sometimes) the D's. NB pulling TOO much 'SR' is also bad
@murrayhay the BHPA recomends the same as a lot of this vid shows. The brakes:if you have landed when it's strong wind,pull a riser("safety riser" murray calls it for some reason) and keep ulling until you have the wing and it is controlled.
The running falling over and then leaning back to control the wing.I don't think you had much choice in this now Murray,lying on your face would have been a bit stupid.
The BHPA clearly does NOT "recomend the same as..", after all IF THEY DID UNDERSTAND HOW PARAGLIDERS WORK they would NOT have killed & injured as many as they HAVE!
NOTE! (for SAFETY!!!!) you should NOT simply 'keep pulling until you have the wing'..
Nor do I EVER teach pilots to A (single) riser, only those as incompetent as the BHPA will (these days!) advise this sort of dangerous practice!
NB: a No. of BHPA 'schools' issue CP 'ratings' to 'students' with UNDER 30min airtime!
Nice handling. Nevertheless you might try to brake it a bit less during the uprise, being more gentle on the A risers (so you wont be dragged back). When the wing is allmost over your head a short 100% brake impulse, which will avoid you to be lifted up.
In this conditions you may allso try to lift up the wing frm the side, using the edge of the wind window.
Yoshyoka, your comments make ZERO sense! As clearly seen there is near ZERO brake applied as the PILOT MOVES UNDER the rising wing! NB There is only a inch or so A riser applied while bringing the wing off the ground.. in fact I could have done with applying a little bit MORE A's at this stage.
100% (even 'short' impulse) has got to be one of the MOST DANGEROUS bits of launch 'advice' I've ever heard!!!
Tip Launches work well in these conditions BUT was NOT what we were out to film this day!
Hi Yoshyoka it is EASY to improve, all pilots world wide need to do is reject the nonsense that is taught to PG pilots!
Almost everything I teach directly contridicts 'normal PG training' which is why I get students traveling to Scotland to RE-train with me from Europe as well as England/Ireland/Wales :-)
NOTE!!! Yoshyoka In this sort of wind I.E. ABOVE the trim speed of the glider... the Ground Speed WILL be 'negative' (you WILL go backwards)
Bringing the wing up more SLOWLY will keep the wing in the stalled stage of the launch for LONGER... which results in a LOT more drag/drag distance!!!
FYI the sort of 'advice' you have given is similar to what I hear from the instructors who generated the 80 odd deaths and THOUSANDS of injuries the BHPA in the UK, have had!!!
checking your airspace is the least of your worries dude. you want to be checking your groundspace as thats where you're gonna be dragged at 20 miles an hour (that gorse bush don't look too enticing!) but you're quite right about BHPA training - i've been trying to get the wing down with brakes in strongish conditions and they quite often make things worse (sudden drags etc.)
Hi Ramases, the 'Airspace' is as important in strong conditions as it is in flyable winds :-) In part this is down to 'Regression' (safe v un-safe) i.e. Airspace MUST ALWAYS be a core part of your flying!
BTY I've around 7,000 hrs airtime and have yet to have anything more than a minor bruise or two from playing in these strong conditions :-)
The BEST choice I've ever made was to NOT train with the BHPA back in the late 90's!!!
I've done demo's in both stronger winds (flat and ridge sites) as well as demo's in gustier conditions, I would say the SEQUENCE of events that far too often result in injuries/deaths takes at least 20sec to develop.... the KEY is first a SOLID understanding of the Physics at work AND solid training to AVOID both the normal human reactions AND those responses taught/developed during 'normal' PG training!
I've now got about 6,500hrs airtime, much of it in 'top end' conditions!
The AFE (Air Plan Flight Equipment) PPL training books are a good, aviation related, starting point.... start by study of the 'engine failure' (unpowered) GLIDING section...
Also of course any (high school level) PHYSICS text books, the basic physics involved in PG flight has been well understood for about 300 years.
As my background includes physics little extra study was needed in my case.
My initial post hasn't come through. BAsically, I was saying that your videos encouraged me to start paragliding, although I have no choice where I live to access training from any other source other than the BHPA.
I was wondering if you could explain more fully (perhaps by over dubbing your videos) about what risers are being pulled and when - because ultimately I'm interested in learning the techniques you promote. The more I learn the better!
It can be a LOT safer to 'self train' PROVIDED you do NOT use information in 'normal' PG books... the reason is of course the SAME errors tend to generate the SAME results... (Accident Rates)
This is why I CHOSE to 'self train' to AVOID 'normal' PG accident rates..
The 'experienced' BHPA pilot I got my first wing from would not belive I had never flown when on my very 1st flight I 'out launched' and 'flew circles around' his (BHPA) 'standard'!
Try refresh, NOTE posts don't show unless 'friends' until one of the members cliks 'aprove' (I will add you as a friend to save the delay in post appearing on line, handy fo 'split' posts due to word limit on YouTube)
would read with interest and I'm sure others would too.
It is no good you just telling people they are wrong. Just explain in simple terms why and people will understand you better.
Please stop ranting. I'm sure once you have taught as many people as the BHPA you will get to the point where pilots although instructed not to, will make simple mistakes. There is nothing you can do about it once they are not in your control. However, if BHPA techniques are really dangerous I want to know why.
The BIGGEST single factor in incidents is 'REGRESSION'... that is the tendency in humans to revert to their FIRST training.
So taking the example of launch accidents about 40% of PG accidents (including a significant No. of tandem deaths) are a direct result of the errors in 'normal' PG theory.... correct/remove thos core (physics & HP&L) errors and you have a near instant reduction of 40% in PG accident rates!
Yep it IS that easy.. BUT there is no short cut to good solid science!
I'd appreciate more info in your posts too. I appreciate you want to get across how many hours you have flying, and how bad the accident rate is for BHPA qualified students but it starting to put me off you.
You must understand that people will listen if you explain properly and don't resort to ranting or even getting into conversations with those people that are simply trying to wind you up.
Perhaps you could start a blog that instructs people about your techniques. I for ..
First: It is not a case of how many hours I fly... it is a case of how many hours my students fly... WITHOUT suffering from the sort of accident rates that are a RESULT of 'normal' PG training....
A bit of PG history helps to put this into perspective... I WAS in effect willing to leave the BHPA alone (despite the No. of pilots they kill/injure) until THEY started their hate/attack campain against me back in the 90's.. Quoting 'Murray's dangerous, Murray breaks the law' (nonsense) Etc. etc.
murrayhay and imasuper0308.. You guys should focus less on the insults and more on the interesting stuff. You guys need to behave like adults now.
I have conventional norwegian PG training and that was ok with me. I learned NO skills for strong conditions, but taught myself after the course. 80% of my flying buddies still have no clue about strong conditions. I take off in winds close to my wing's trim speed now. Not fighting the wing is the key, just like M says. Your bragging is childish btw.
What is 'insulting' about pointing out WHY 'normal' PG training kills & injures so many PG pilots, remember it's not just the numerous common theory/practice INSTRUCTION ERRORS.. it's the FAILINGS in training that RESULT in PG accident rates!
My stating FACTS is not 'bragging' by the way, if you find the truth uncomfortable then that is something you will need to work through yourself, just as (from your statement) you needed to 'self train' for real flying conditions i.e. launching in a wind!
You said: "Your level of stupidity & incompetence is reaching new highs.." AND "All I need do is out live idiots like you! "
Dell said: "Stop pretending to be an instructor."
I think we need to be a lot more constructive if we want to get anywhere. I think one of the main problems here is the total lack of communication skills you guys are showing. Your "bragging" may be "stating FACTS", but pls stop repeating your 1000s of hours and yrs of experience. Makes you look like a no-good showoff.
Being a LOT more constructive in paragliding is VERY... All any an instructor needs do is teach (and demonstrate in EVERY flight!) just how EASY it is to slash PG accident rates by as much as 95%!
Also IF an 'expert' IS making INCOMPETENT statments those who DO have a far higher (safer) standard have a 'Duty of Care' to highlight that fact.
The BEST proof of a higher standard is to simply out live all those who promote dangerous standards, MANY 1,000's hrs SAFE flying reinforce my case.
I really see your frustration, and I truly respect your cause. I'm just saying that to me it seems like you are not getting through to anyone with your ways of communicating. Telling someone that you'll outlive them isn't really the way to get your point through. Again, I understand your frustration. I also agree with you that accident rates are much too high, and that bad training is a big part of the problem.
In fact I've KNOWN from my very first PG flight that groups like the BHPA will keep doing what they do until the courts stop them... and I NEVER let things beyond my direct control 'get to me' so I'm not frustrated :-)
Ref: 'it seems like you are not getting through to anyone'...
Except that of course I do get a LOT of PG pilots traveling from all over the UK (and abroad) to RE-train with me... so clearly I AM getting through to a growing section of the PG world..
I'm from Africa (Kenya) there are a LOT of needless/pointless deaths there...
Regarding PG: Personally I've no problem with PG pilots dying/ending up in wheelchairs due to their CHOOSING 'normal' PG training... PROVIDED their CHOICE was an informed one..
I do however have a big issue with Instructors/sporting bodies lying/missleading those pilots.
AT 2:74 --> This is what always happens to me, when trying to get the wing up in high wind -> The wing speeds upwards then pulls me heavily back and then collapses . After the collapse it dragged me through 50meters of yard :-D It was just impossible getting the wing up without collapsing right after getting up..
As a general rule the key component collapse/no frontal collapse is the slope below the pilot.... the issue arises when the pilot clear of the ground swings too far past (under) the rising wing...
2:47 - 2: 50 I mean ^^ In these 3 seconds we can see that the wing pulls so hard that the pilot can't effort not to be thrown under it. That's what happens to me all the time . At that time I didn't know yet that pulling the C's or D's control the wing better then grabbing as much brake as possible , so I was dragged through some gras ^^
The (Safety Risers) C's (or D's) are not used to 'control' the wing as such (harnees/pilot position is used for that)... but rather along with direct/indirect PITCH control the 'Safety Risers' are used during the KILL stage..
NOTE By (direct & indirect) going significantly PITCH NEGATIVE (almost to the stage of a 'frontal' almost no strength is required to 'kill' the wing... this is all about PHYSICS (and skill) not 'fighting' the wing :-)
Today i was very dissapointed when i came home from that "grounhanling" in 16.1m/s, i mean my mojo( not my wing) was crushed, but only that and for short time becouse then i realize that another pilot can end injured.
Hey "imastupid" today i go to grounhandling and the wind it was about 8 to 12 m/s.I decide to give a try and all was good until a gust of wind at 16.1m/s arrived and i was lucky becouse i saw all of Murray clips, not loose my presence of spirit and do what right.I escape untouched eighter me and the wing and all what happend was i learn a lesson, thats all.I would like to see one of your retarded students or even u -the best ignorant in the world- do what i do.
Don't be silly, the first most obvious point is that there is no point in the clip where I am 'blown backwards into the hill'!
High winds and a slope mean there is plenty of lift so it would be easy to fly (with a negative ground speed) up and top land.. but as that would be out of sight of the camera it would be pointless!
In fact the video clip shows how easy it is to AVOID being yet another BHPA accident stat... DESPITE the wind speed easily exceeding 'trim speed'!
'imaginary things'... there is nothing imaginary in the toll of injuries & deaths that RESULT from the incompetence of BHPA instruction.
You said 'blown backwards into the hill', now try to remember that the POINT of the clip is to show how even in NEGATIVE ground speed situations (wind > trim speed) there is in fact no need to end up yet another BHPA accident!
So my CHOOSING to launch and then drift backwards to LAND is certainly NOT a case of being 'blown into the hill'!
This is what he trains/teaches - ground handling and flying a wing in +20kms winds. Can YOU do that with your training right now without breaking something other than your ego ?
Question: In view of the number of PG pilots injured & killed over the years following BHPA Ltd 'training' (remembering that a 'pilot' can get a CP rating with as little as 20 mins airtime...)
No, this is what he trains/teaches - ground handling and flying a wing in +20kms winds. Can YOU do that with your training right now without breaking something other than your ego ?
Murray, you do not appear in control to me! Of course the wing can be controlled in strong winds with "D"s, brake and line pressure and a careful balance of all 3 but that still does not make it safe in high winds. Flying backwards is never a good idea and being lifted straight up before you can check the canopy is not being in control. A man with a wing purchased on ebay without any knowledge or training would do exactly what you are "teaching". Nice one Murray, keep up the good work!
Please please please produce more of these videos!
Very entertaining both from the Chaplin style slapstick humour to reading the comment trail left in it's aftermath! Very funny. I particularly like the part about being in "Control".
'Control' is obvious, just stop and think about the fact that I have been demonstrating HIGH wind PG control for over ten years on a wide variety of paragliders (both mine and on students own wings) and in that time I have not had a single accident/injury...
I note that on your YouTube account you don't have any PG clips... have you ever flown a aircraft?
Just had to watch the film again to be sure we are talking about the same one. If you were in "control" of the glider, firstly you would have it packed neatly in it's rucksack ready for a flyable day. I understand about your apparent need to show people how wings can be handled even in strong conditions but fail to see how being dragged around the hill whilst having a full frontal collapse and even falling over does this.
As for youtube, I choose not to embarrass myself on it.
This clip (and my others) show just how easy it is to AVOID 'normal' accidents by AVOIDING 'normal' theory/practice/procedures!
NOTE: There would be little point in demonstrating/filming a HIGH WIND safety clip in 'flyable conditions'.
One KEY point is that pilots need to be able to LAND.. in conditions you would not wish to launch (fly) in.. This sort of training RESULTS in a close to zero FLYING accident rate, hence 4,000+hrs SAFE airtime!
It's not the BHPA that kills pilots Murray, nobody forces pilot to fly in conditions they cant handle or fly wings they cant recover from.
I'm glad your a "safe" pilot, I wouldn't like to think you do what you do and write your scathing rants if you were not completely "safe". I tell myself every time I fly that I am safe, well to the point that I have assessed the risks and am flying to the best of my abilities. Nope! cant find the Safety Risers in my instruction book, are they next to the Cs?
The BHPA could IF THEY HAD THE MORAL COURAGE... slash their accident rates.. but to do so would involve facing up to the truth about all those 'Pilot Error' deaths..
The fact is that any pilot that trains based on 'normal' PG theory/practice/procedures WILL risk falling into the middle of the bell curve of PG accident!
As 95% of what I teach (and of course use EVERY time I fly) DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS the BHPA my students are at the far left of the 'curve' i.e. near zero accidents.
Of course you are free to think that a sporting body WITH NO LEGAL AUTHORITY that passes its self of as the 'UK governing body' & states on its website that PG pilots 'must be a member' etc. while PERMITTING its instructors to 'qualify' Club Pilots with as little as 20 mins airtime is 'Good', DESPITE their appalling accident rates..
Clearly I DON'T think injuring/killing pilots is a good idea!
'Safety Risers' are wing defendant, the ones when used CORRECTLY with the harness 'kill' the wing.
Regarding PG pilots & 'I tell myself every time I fly that I am safe'
PILOTS WILL OF COURSE BASE THEIR VIEW OF HOW SAFE THEY ARE ON THEIR TRAINING/FLYING EXPERIENCE..
It is safe to say that the majority of 'experienced' BHPA pilots/coaches/instructors who had been severely injured/killed also judged that final launch to be for a 'safe flight'...
Personally IF I had done BHPA 'normal' training I judge would have been dead well over 100 times in the last 4,500+ hours flying..!
I agree you travelling backwards over the ground but that is still ill-advised. You are not in control of your aircraft whilst you can not fly forwards over the ground because you can not land safely!
The best and ONLY thing to do if you find yourself flying in these conditions is to kill the wing as quickly as possible and be glad you are OK. You are clearly a very experienced pilot but my concern is that people might imitate what you are doing here. Agreed?
Having demonstrated many 100's of spot landings while flying configured for a negative ground speed clearly it is easy to control the flight & landing even when the WIND speed is above the AIRspeed.
Re 'Kill .. as quickly as possible' this is almost never the best idea, in the vast majority of all ('accidental') negative GS situations is to take your time and CHOOSE the spot for the best landing.
Re 'imitate' the point is to show how easy it is to avoid 'normal' PG accidents!
No, still looks dangerous to me; you get lifted and then are flying backwards and then fall over.
I can't see what you are demonstrating other than it is dangerous to inflate your glider in strong conditions because it can't be controlled, may get damaged in bushes and and you will get hoisted into the air and fly backwards.
Maybe a commentry would be good so you can explain what is happening?
Hi Colin, there are a number of Dual Control Tandem flights that includ thermaling on G-BZJI, currently fairly few solo pure thermal flights.
The reason of course is that most of the clips are filmed on the core training days, more advanced training tends to be up in the Scottish mountains and not carrying unnessary (video) equipment.
I've READ a LOT of material you've posted on a NUMBER of SUBJECTS. One thing I KEEP wondering is: do you HAVE an INTERMITTENT fault with the CAPS LOCK key on YOUR keyboard? :-)
Hi no I don't have a problem with either my UK or USA keyboards... however the observant YouTuber will have noticed that there is no facility for italics or BOLD type to indicate KEY points in posts...
My personal opinion: In strong wind, Flex legs, once the paragliding starts lifting run towards it, do not resist or pull backwards. The purpose is to lessen the force of the wind, not to increase it. Stop pulling on the wing once you're behind the hill (ever heard of rotors and turbulence?).
I have to state the obvious (ref your comment metric/Knots) that in a 20+ Kt wind you can NOT 'run' as the wing WILL lift you!
The idea is NOT in fact to 'lessen the force of the wind' (DRAG) but rather the pilot should as shown here control/manage the LIFT vector generated by the wing!
NB Rotor is a VASTLY overrated problem, I both fly and launch/land through/past 'rotor' all the time with zero problems!
It's incompetent theory/instruction that generates MOST PG 'Rotor' accidents!
By the way Scott the Welsh PG BHPA instructor I was speaking to the other day (the one that mentioned the BHPA 'CP' [Novice] 'pilot' with a TOATL airtime of 20 mins...) Teaches EXACTLY what I stated is the BHPA 'normal'.. that is 'Ram Air' and 'pressurised'...
Unless of course YOU are saying that in the last couple of days the BHPA has suddenly seen the light and NOW states the PHYSICS I've been teaching for the LAST 10+ YEARS...
Scott If you truly think that it is time you pulled your heaad out of the sand and studied EXACTLY WHY BHPA TRAINING RESULTS IN SO MANY INJURED & DEAD UK PILOTS...
The bottom line remains that as long as what I teach (INCLUDING my SOP's) DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS what the BHPA teach my students will NOT suffer from the accident rates that RESULT from BHPA training/SOP's!
'Operating procedures'.. well we know that 'pilots' can have a BHPA CP [Novice] rating issued with ONLY 20 mins airtime so perhaps BHPA 'operating procedures' CAN be listed in a sentence or two...
However GOOD aviation SOP take a LOT of training to cover, YOU keep showing you can't even grasp basic PHYSICS so I am hardly likely to waste 10+ days teaching YOU what you are incapable of learning/understanding.
NB. It generaly takes RE-training EX-bhpa pilots a LOT longer to learn GOOD PG SOP!
Quote: 'Someone might read .. & think a second time about training with Murray. Murray is reading this & might think a second time about what he is doing..'
Fredrik: MOST OF MY STUDENTS ARE ESCAPING THE DANGERS OF THE BHPA..
Am I going to stop helping pilots CHOOSE to AVOID injury & death at the hands of 'normal' training? NOPE!
10+ years ago I pointed out the errors (DANGERS) in what YOU support.. just ask yourself 'How many 'normal' PG pilots have been injured & died in that time?'
What technique do you use that allows you to bring a wing up and maintain control in such high winds?
I don't live in the UK and as such could not attend any of your courses.
Would you please share your technique in the interests of general safety. What I would hope for is a short description of what I need to do to control the wing in such conditions.
I am an experienced thermic pilot of 12+ years, so groundhandling is well within my grasp.
Hi Rod, the key is to understand the diffrence between DRAG and LIFT.. Start by looking at the problem in reverse, most pilots think after bringing on LOT's of brakes to drop the wing and getting pulled in the latter stages of the wing 'dropping' that this is 'DRAG', when it is in fact mainly LIFT produced by the REVERSED airflow over the top of the wing..
Once students FULLY understand the core difference between 'drag' and 'lift' PULLING them along the ground.. (cont.)
(cont.) then they can apply this to high wind launches (but in REASONABLE winds ~ NB THIS clip is how to survive with NO problem a HIGH wind LANDING..)
In the strong wind launch (MANY Vid clips) the pilot is 'lifted' and due to the 'parachute reaction', they PULL LOTs of brake... etc
The problem with Mitos IN STRONG conditions is it almost locks out 'wing warp' control (and other issues) one KEY to a safe launch is for the pilot to be free to 'warp' the wing.. AND have the risers (cont.)
(con.t) ..have the risers at normal (width) seperation.. NOT held together!
The KEY is to FLY the wing UP.. while the WING brings the pilot (off the ground) to a ON the ground position that is BOTH below AND 'BEHIND' (down wind) the CoP of the wing..
Then the pilot is free to CHOOSE to launch OR to use the safety procedure shown in the clip to 'CYCLE', getting the wing to dive so the pilot is BACK on the ground WITH THE COP WELL AHEAD OF THE PILOTS MASS.. THEN 'SAFETY RISER' KILL THE WING!
Qoute: 'experiance' is mainly (in mainstream PG) simply SURVIVING long enough to be classed as an 'experianced pilot'.. i.e. relys on a LOT of 'luck'.
In RE-training 'experianced pilots' I spend a LOT of time correcting all the errors they were first taught, so ONLY IF you can understand the information (SCIENCE) I have already given you CAN do this safely!
There is NO 'short description' as any answer MUST involve FIRST gaining a SOLID understanding of the (fairly basic) PHYSICS involved.
You are asking me to take your word for it, when it flies in the face of both common sense and the recommended advice from some of the worlds top instructors, not just those from the UK.
As you are not capable of an explanation, I'll simply have to conclude that you're making it up, and I simply don't believe you.
You also suggest "experienced" pilots who are not dead are relying on a lot of luck. Well straight back at you then...
I am not asking YOU to take my word for it, YOU like all PG pilots are free to keep flying based on theories/practices/procedures that RESULT in the accident, injury & death rates normaly seen in the sport.
Regarding your last line.. There were plenty of incompetent PG 'experts' saying that to me over 10 years ago.. Some of them are even still alive!
Over the next 20+ years YOU count the human cost of incompetence, me I will keep providing RE-training to pilots looking to AVOID accidents!
I simply asked for an explanation of how to do what you say you can do. You have not been forthcoming with that explanation, and until you do I simply won't beleive you.
If you told me pigs could fly I'd ask for proof or a description of how to get them to do it, it only seems reasonable to me.
1) To understand how to do this SAFELY pilots MUST understand the BASIC physics involved in PG flight, i.e. NOT the incompetent nonsense in PG books! So clearly you start from a massive disadvantage.
2) While the core physics involved IS simple the APPLICATION involves a LOT of overlap/feedback loops, i.e. There is NO 'simple' one paragraph answer.
For 10+yrs I've heard the sort of crap you just posted, DESPITE the evidence shown as in my vids!
Scott the actions and responses a pilot makes are goverened by two main factors:
Training undertaken ~ in the case of 'normal' PG this is BASED on 'normal' theory, in the case of 'my' training 95% of the theory DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS 'normal' so there are a vast number of diffrences in the practice.
The second factor CAN be modified by HP&L TRAINING.. IF that training is provided!
In PG simply CORRECT theory errors to slash the accident rates.
HP&L for those that did NOT get Human Performance & Limitations PG training from their CHOOSEN instructor/association is the science of (in simple terms):
How & Why humans can OR fail to learn
In addition~ How & Why they act in response to certain situations and Do/Do Not act in a manner that training (should) dictate.
If you will, the diffrence between the natural 'Human' reaction and the (PROVIDED TRAINED with HP&L) 'Pilot' reaction to the SAME situation.
To be of use in the SAFE operation of an aircraft in flight 'operating procedures' are of course BASED on the theory of how the aircraft flys.
PILOTS DO NOT (in general) NEED TO 'CALCULATE' ANY NUMBERS... But they DO need to fly based on CORRECT theory IF they wish to AVOID the sort of accident rates that RESULT from 'normal' PG training!
BHPA 'operating procedures' RESULT in BHPA accident rates! Avoid those errors and you greatly redure your risk exposure.
'Normal' PG pilots are taught the THEORY that PG wings in flight are 'pressurised by Ram Air', further more they are told that adding brake increases the pressure in the wing.
That particular bunch of THEORY errors has over the years probably injured & killed more PG pilots than any of the other errors 'normaly' taught in the sport!
It should come as NO surprise that as I teach based on SCIENCE what I teach DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS presurised/ram Air (in flight)
Well Fredrik.. which do YOU think sounds a greater number?
Twelve or one dozen?
FL 100 or 10,000 feet?
Of course what you perhaps SHOULD be asking is ~ 'How many dead & injured 'normal' PG pilots are... 'too many'...'
Just try and remember MOST of those (75%) that CHOOSE to train with me are in fact RE-training pilots ESCAPING the dangers of 'normal' (BHPA) training...
Ref: (Is it only me that think that "many 100's of students" sounds less than "WELL over 1,000 pilots"?)
Is this supposed to show how to ground handle in a strong wind, or HOW NOT TO?
How about using a 's and c's and bringing up the wing in a controlled way? I 've seen day two students in Australia launching better than that in strong winds using the Mitsos method.
Hi Bob, yep I am well aware of 'Mitos'... more important I am well aware of the DANGERS of that method..
YEP I'VE WITNESSED AUS TRAINED PILOTS GET INJURED USING IT!!!
I STRONGLY CAUTION RE-training pilots to stop using 'Mitos'! By the way it DOES work fairly well in 'fresh' but REASONABLE wind speeds.. and at fairly easy locations.. BUT it is VERY risky in strong winds & significantly restricts control options.
I would NEVER personaly use it as I like staying alive & walking too much!
Having witnesses a LOT of BHPA pilots go 'SPLAT' in REASONABLE winds (10-15kts) this clip shows how it is EASY in fact to avoid injury even in conditions WELL above that that can be considered 'reasonable/safe'..
Those like Dave Massie should ask themselves is it moral (and legal?) to support training that RESULTS in the accident. injury & death rates produced by the BHPA?
PG pilots should ask themselves 'Do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution?'
If I saw someone with the ground handling skills demonstrated here (on a wing that's really easy to ground handle), I'd go and offer them some advice as to how to handle strong wind launches, and landings. My advice wouldn't include falling over arse over tit, and grabbing the rear risers. If I did this sort of stuff, (and I'll readily admit I have on occasion), I'd be embarrassed to display it in public as an example of good control.
Sorry, Murray, it must be be the drugs you're on, or something. The video shows you failing to launch properly, and falling over on landing, and this is teaching us what, exactly? If you want some lessons, I can tell you 3 or 4 better ways to launch in a gale, and some better ways of keeping in your feet. ...and where is my answer to the other question? Not censored, surely?
No Dave, what the clip shows is that in winds WELL ABOVE what could be considered 'reasonable' is is VERY easy to avoid becoming yet another 'normal' (BHPA) accident stat!
Your comment indicates you are even more incompetent than I guessed if you belive you can 'tell of 3 or 4 better ways', I know of many OTHER all with + AND - points, none are overall 'better'.
Try to remember unlike you I DO NOT SUPPORT 'training' that has a L O N G history of injuring & killing UK PG pilots!
So just how many BHPA pilots have died and been seriously injured now due to the incompetent theory, practice and procedures YOU support..?
NB It was intresting speaking to a BHPA instructor on the phone the other day who commented they had a visiting BHPA CP (Novice) 'rated' pilot asking about the 'conditions'.... turns out he had a TOTAL of 20 mins airtime!
He was scathing of the BHPA (so called) 'FSC'!
No wonder the BHPA accident rates are so appaling!
I'll debate relative accident rates, Murray, when YOU publish accurate figures for your accident rates, eg numbers trained, and accidents occurred, over the last ten years. Then, and only then, can we compare them. This is something you have consistently failed to do so far.
The bottom line Dave is that to be SAFER than the BHPA I would only need to have a (slightly) LOWER accident rate than they have..
75% of my students over the last 10 years have been RE-training BHPA pilots CHOOSING a safer standard, it should come as no surprise that RE-training pilots DO choose a SAFER standard...
By the way the chap out today has 1,500 hrs fixed wing/300+ hrs rotary + sailplane + HG etc. etc. and is FULLY (as all are) aware of the BHPA.... SAFETY is EASY in paragliding!
One problem is that not HAVING any accidents in many of the years.. makes it difficult to have an 'accident rate'!
This is as students who have trained using the THEORY, PRACTICE, & PROCEDURES I teach have, over time, considerably LESS than 5% of the accident rates seen from 'normal' PG (BHPA) training..
Of course in view of the fact there are BHPA CP (Novice) 'rated' pilots with LESS than one hour airtime during 'training'... it is NO surprise it is VERY easy to provide better training!
Don't be ingenuous, Murray, You've already admitted on a public forum that one of your students has been to hospital multiple times, since you 'retrained' him. That creates your accident rate.
So YOU are saying.. 'Don't be Candid, Fair, Open, Frank'... (and yes I did look up the word as I was not 100% sure your comment made no sense!)
YOU can make as many stupid/pointless comments as you want BUT the truth is that Duncan had accidents both as a DIRECT & INDIRECT result of his FIRST 'normal' (BHPA) training...
So no matter you much YOU try to distort the truth the most significant factor in UK PG accidents IS the BHPA! (Duncan was PIC)
Dave remember to be SAFER than the BHPA would ONLY require that my training (THEORY/PRACTICE/PROCEDURES) generate LESS accident, injuries & deaths than BHPA training..
With WELL over 1,000 pilots trained/RE-trained over the last 10 years, and EXCLUDING BHPA 'training' resultant accidents... we are talking still LESS accidents than I have witnessed at ONE BHPA site in ONE afternoon! (BHPA was EIGHT accidents)
1,000?! No, sorry, not even in your Walter Mitty world, Murray. 3 or 4 years ago, you'd trained about 5 people. We could read in your flight diary the names of ALL of them. C'mon, the REAL figures, please.
The point (as is clearly stated) is to show that if you use PHYSICS (along with HP&L) in training then it is EASY to prevent paragliding INCIDENTS (situations going wrong) from developing into the far too common BHPA type ACCIDENTS (injury and/or damage), now the procedures demonstrated here are practiced by my student pilots (Esp the EX-bhpa RE-training ones which make up about 75% of my students) BUT of course in FAR more reasonable conditions... RESULT? We do NOT suffer BHPA accident rates!
Correct, of course the reason students TRAIN (but in FAR safer conditions!) for how to land & kill the wing, is so the members can avoid the sort of accidents the sport suffers from far too often. These Practices & Procedures are best ONLY worked on in winds of 10-15 kts! Pilots should then 're-fresh' their safety practice for about 30mins EVERY month. My demonstrating in real OVER LIMIT winds shows students just how effective Precision Safety Procedures are in comparison to what the BHPA do..
I've been training reverse launch wind in similar conditions, with similar problems. Wind was indeed around 13-14 knots. In your case a little bit more maybe like 18 knots? Seems you DO have a problem with your anemometer. Mark
Similar conditions... Intresting so you think 13-14kts (i.e. near perfect small ridge flying conditions) is the same as 20 PLUS knots! Try to get a grip of the basics of paragliding, the TRIM AIRSPEED of the glider is about 20kts... so with a NEGATIVE grounds speed the WIND speed is ABOVE trim speed i.e. GREATER than 20 kts.
20 (+!!!) Knots is 37kph, a nautical mile is a bit longer than a statute mile (i.e. 10kts is about 11.5 mph)
Use of Knots is fairly standard in aviation hence when teaching even to my non-UK PG students the prime units used are knots, of course for those from metric background I give them the approx values in terms they are more used to.
You miss the point, Murray. The folks you see in the Whidbey clips are very low-time pilots and students - all flying in the same moderate winds that you brag about, and mostly flying better than you. I know, you keep insisting that you're heroicly kiting in 25 knots, but your video speaks for itself - 15 knots tops. If you honestly believe otherwise, then your wind meter is broken. Quit the bragging and practice!
Nope however your incompetence as regarding airspeed/wind speed certainly DOES 'speak for its self'! Time you learnt some basics about aviation and paragliding in particular... when flying at trim speed (zero brake) and with a significant NEGATIVE ground speed is a CLEAR indication that the WIND speed is GREATER than the airspeed of the glider.. i.e. indicates in this case wind speeds well ABOVE twenty knots... Feel free to comment further only WHEN you finaly learn some of the basics!
Murray, laddie: wake up and smell the coffee. If this video is supposed to be an example of your stellar skills, then you need few thousand more hours ground-handling. I expect better results from my 50 hour students. By the way, you're confusing knots for kilometers, Sally. 25km is nothing to brag about.
You have just proved your incompetence at least on the subject of wind speeds/airspeed of the glider! It is of course 25 KNOTS.. or if you prefer 28.8 mph or 46 Kmh ('25km' would be a DISTANCE not a speed!) As I said I would have serious doubts as to the odds of you surviving 'kiting' in these conditions, which are as even a new student could see are in winds WELL above the trim speed of a paraglider!
I wonder in your 'vast experiance' when you will (if ever) get around to posting up your FIRST ever PG clip on YouTube... Here is a suggestion... start in EASY conditions of say only 25kmh winds.. (by the way that's only a nice easy 13.5kts...)
I'm laughing so hard I can barely type! Maybe I'll get around to posting some footage soon. In the mean time you can view a few of my students. Just look for videos on Whidbey Island soaring. Thanks for the laughs!
Mmmm nothing 'funny' (excluding the tongue twisters) on the (11) Whidbey Island clips, there is some nice flying in easy conditions... BUT also a LOT of VERY poor standard ground handling/launches/landings, I guess the pilot 'standard' reflects the quality of training... to quote one clip on some pilots fortunate survival... 'Lucky man...!' Oh and some VERY poor 'tandem' standards!
What are doing up at four in the morning obsessing over youtube comments? Get some rest. You'll need your energy to work on your ground handling. At least we agree on the lack of skills among those tandem schmucks - they don't have the skill to fly themselves, let alone passengers.
I am at work... (and being amused by the ineptitude of your comments!) by the way it was about 3am which is only just the end of the typical working day for me! Based on your students/fellow pilots GH lack-of-skills they could do with coming over to (windy!) Scotland to RE-train with me... Oh and have you worked out yet that 25 kts nearly DOUBLE 25kmh... I look forward (Don't kill yourself!) in time to seeing you GH in 25kts at an inland site...
Quote 'Maybe I'll get around to posting some footage soon.'
And a year later... NOPE Vertigopilots has still not got a single YouTube paragliding clips... so no surprise there!
Oh and it's also no surprise I am still getting lots of RE-training BHPA pilots as well as those that come from abroad... as they also wish to AVOID 'normal' PG accident, injury & death rates!
Well I'm beat Murray, clearly your 4,500+ hours has made you an exceptionally gifted pilot, not that anybody would know, you are clearly very modest about it!
My dear old Grandad at 96 is a very experienced driver so he tells me, very switched on. I guess he must be due to all the hours he has racked up behind the wheel. Always very open to new ways of thinking.
Happy flying Murray, maybe catch you on a hill someday!
(Now where do I attach my Wing Defendants? On the ends of my Brummels?)
My very first flight I 'flew circles' around the BHPA (Hill & Tow) pilot who was selling his wing and leaving the sport after one too many accidents!
He would not believe I had never flown before... which showed the MASSIVE advantage of flying a paraglider based on science rather than the nonsense the BHPA preaches! I've been pointing out exactly why 'normal' training RESULTS in accidents since '98, when I had my first RE-training EX-bhpa student!
Not too bad for a low-time intermediate. With a few refinements you should be able to control and fly that wing in those moderate-wind conditions. Keep working on it. You'll get there. Be the wing.
VERY amusing... OR.. I would have to guess you don't actualy fly paragliders! 'moderate wind' Mmmmm 25kts is in fact Beaufort Force 6.. just a couple more knots (Force 7) is clasified as 'Near Gale'... By the way don't even THINK of trying this sort of wind speed until like me you have flown several THOUSAND hours airtime on comp & DHV 2/3 gliders!
Try not to take yourself too seriously, Murray. 3000hrs and 10 yrs makes you very much my junior. But my comments weren't meant to pull rank. Kiting badly in 25 knots is not something to brag about, except to grommets who stand around with their knees knocking. Instead of bragging about "killing" the wing, redirect your efforts to flying the wing. 25 knots is not a big deal if you've got it together. BTW, is all of your airtime is on comp wings, or do you log your lesser-mortal time separately?
What I take VERY seriously is 'normal' (BHPA in the UK) training that keeps killing and injuring pilots.. Gusty 25kts + some thermals, so this is in fact VERY good ground handling (kiting)! I would be 'intrested' in seeing YOU (but try not to kill yourself) 'kite' in these conditions/location. In addition to the hrs on comp and (modified) ex-DHV 2/3 wings I've down about 1,000 hrs on lower rated wings.. (not including LOTS of GH time by the way!)
All these training schools just rip you off. I am completely self taught. Going out and learning fro yourself how the wing works and how to control it is much more rewarding and gives you a better understanding. Paragliding schools are for retards with too much money.
I'm not to sure which schools the comment is directed at but as a self taught pilot & instructor I have to agree with the sentiment based on what those coming to me having first 'trained' with the BHPA say! Hence I've approved your comment!
since I havent been to any school, none in particular. The only time I think schools could be of any real value are when they try and refine skills already learnt or teach more complicated moves
Ok, most 'pilots' coming to me to re-train have spent about 900 pounds doing the BHPA EP & CP course and generaly range in 40 (FORTY!) mins to 5 hours airtime... this has often taken one to two years... with me it is not unusual to soon average over three hours per day!
It's easy to log up 3 hrs a day when you count your hours when you arrive on the hill and not time spent in the air, 3000hrs in scotland in 10years. I find that hard to believe as I have lived in the Alps for 15years and have just under 2000hrs. Oh by the way I don't register my glider with innsbruck airport or count my hours when I clip in my harness and was BHPA trained.
Yep it would be... however unlike those who train with the dangerous incompitent instructions of the BHPA which has in the last ten years RESULTED in many thousands of accidents and about 70 deaths in the UK, I only count my airtime as air time! On a decent day either Dual Control tandem training or just solo flying I will often FLY eight hours in a day!
Oh and by the way so far THIS month I've flown on 15 days including Dual Control tandem training flights lasting up to an hour per flight with a total of 6 new students... with currently being fairly busy with work the flying has on some days only been for an hour or two between or after photoshoots so it looks like being a sub 50 hours airtime month...
High wind control ? What control ? You're being dragged all over the place. And to even think that you got your wing out of the bag with 25 knots blowing ? That's almost 10 km/h over trim speed! Crazy and irresponsible behaviour especially from an instructor ...
I have to presume you are a supporter of the bhpa... remind me just how many of their members have been seriously injured (or worse)... The clip show that it is in fact easy to fly down and land SAFELY if the conditions pick up... provided pilots do in fact understand who our wings work... something the bhpa clearly have no clue about as indicated by their appaling accident rates!
It may also help you to consider that theses days 75% of my students are EX-bhpa 'pilots' who are no longer prepared to put up with thie accident rates, as 95% of the theory and so much of the practice DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS the bhpa we of course do NOT suffer from the typicl PG accident rates! Showing it pays to train to a better standard!
Well I guess you're not advocating flying at 25 knots then, thats good or your going backwards. Are you perhaps trying to demonstrate b-stalling for killing the wing in high wind after landing ? It wasn't clear to me. I don't do politics, haven't lived in UK for 15 years can't comment on how BHPA pilots fly - don't think **that** many are dying though.
Trim speed of the glider (in air) is approx 20kts, with the pilot on the ground trim speed is around 17kts (due to pitch change). flat out in air (pilot configured to give MAX drag + speed bar) is about 28kts. "Bstall" is a VERY BAD idea, use the "safety risers" (C's in this case) instead. Mmm only if about 70 is considered "not many".... It is NOT about "politics" it IS about incompitence in PG sporting bodies!
In view of your comment I have added the following to the description for clarity...
"At PPC we train to be able to LAND safely if needed if the wind increases too ABOVE trim speed. NB. for students this training is done in winds that remain BELOW trim speed".. MH
First it is NOT of course B-stalling... that would NOT make the wing do what is seen in the clip! Rather use of the "safety risers" (in the case of this wing the C's). Re BHPA deaths.. well that rather depends if you consider (UK only) 70 odd deaths to be "not many"... not to mention the thousands of others "only" injured...
hey great vid murray now i know how 2 go out and get dragged around and look like a total pr**
i realy didnt see any skil l in this video
even when building a wall you couldnt tell that the tips were going to come up faster than the middle and to me it was obvius you should come down to yorkshire and ill give you some lessons on ground handeling
I don't mean to cause offence- but this is bloody dangerous.
Firstly, Why blame the BHPA for accidents and say they are unsafe- How good schools are have nothing to do with the BHPA. I fly with a very safe school where eveyone completes their training at their own paste- we go by the BHPA training. The only cause for accidents is normally pilot error or equipment.
Secondly, I can ground handle in windy conditions better than this. All this video shows is how not to do it.
XxTazJadeSpencexX 3 months ago
Jade What a lot of crap! The bhpa have injured & killed (directly & indirectly many thousands!) 'Safe School' HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED AT THE BHPA INJURY & DEATH RATES!!!! They had YET ANOTHER ONE LAST WEEK!!!
RE 'BETTER'... PROVE IT! Just rember to make sure your will is up to date first! I've been hearing this same sort of crap from the bhpa funders/supporters since before their last 80+ DEATHS.... wake up and smell what your wallowing in!
murrayhay 3 months ago
i agree the bhpa is a rip off thay look after there own cfi s as i had a crash in spain and i reported it to them 3 week later found out he should have done it 48 hours after it happened . he sold me an ellus3 XL when i should have been on an ellus3 L i was 98kg all up on a wing 100-130kg in spain in 40 deg heat . it was like trying to control pitbull on heat . thus i smashed into the ground crushing my L1 . the bhpa look after there own .
ellus2flyer 6 months ago
That's classic!! Made me laugh out loud..... 02:48 is hilarious :) Reminds me of 'Supermax'
zekezero12345 1 year ago
Hi zekezero12345
'Supermax'? I could not find any (relevant) refrence....?
Mind you I'm not sure that a video demonstrating just how EASY it is to stay SAFE in VERY strong conditions can be regarded by any resonably minded pilot as 'Hilarious'..... Of course in the case of the UK we DO have a bunch of nutters known as the BHPA who find it acceptiable to charge 'pilots' £1,300 for 'training' which see a pilot 'rated' with as (AND I QUOTE!) 'As much as 30 mins airtime by the end of training'
murrayhay 1 year ago
Try a search on You Tube for Supermax 1 or 2 - PG films. I'm sure you didn't mean your clip to be funny Murray, but it is. Not a bad thing by any means......
zekezero12345 1 year ago
Hi zekezero12345 I found the comedy clip you were refering to.... but as it has no relevance to my video clip which is all about SAFETY in very strong conditions it's hard to see why you would choose to mention it!
murrayhay 1 year ago
@murrayhay By safety risers are you talking about brakes? Are they clipped in in this video?
ollycopter 10 months ago
Brakes. NO! A very LARGE number of 'normal' trained PG pilots, over the 20+ years of the sport have been injured (or killed) by trying to control ('kill') the wing in winds of even 1/2 this strength!
I spend a LOT of time with RE-training students to STOP the UNsafe 'Regression' 1st trained habit of pulling brakes!
'Safety Risers' are wing dependant, in 3 riser designs they are ALWAYS the C's, on 4 riser gliders they can be C's OR (sometimes) the D's. NB pulling TOO much 'SR' is also bad
murrayhay 10 months ago
@murrayhay the BHPA recomends the same as a lot of this vid shows. The brakes:if you have landed when it's strong wind,pull a riser("safety riser" murray calls it for some reason) and keep ulling until you have the wing and it is controlled.
The running falling over and then leaning back to control the wing.I don't think you had much choice in this now Murray,lying on your face would have been a bit stupid.
freeflyinmik 1 month ago
The BHPA clearly does NOT "recomend the same as..", after all IF THEY DID UNDERSTAND HOW PARAGLIDERS WORK they would NOT have killed & injured as many as they HAVE!
NOTE! (for SAFETY!!!!) you should NOT simply 'keep pulling until you have the wing'..
Nor do I EVER teach pilots to A (single) riser, only those as incompetent as the BHPA will (these days!) advise this sort of dangerous practice!
NB: a No. of BHPA 'schools' issue CP 'ratings' to 'students' with UNDER 30min airtime!
murrayhay 1 month ago
Nice handling. Nevertheless you might try to brake it a bit less during the uprise, being more gentle on the A risers (so you wont be dragged back). When the wing is allmost over your head a short 100% brake impulse, which will avoid you to be lifted up.
In this conditions you may allso try to lift up the wing frm the side, using the edge of the wind window.
yoshyoka 1 year ago
Yoshyoka, your comments make ZERO sense! As clearly seen there is near ZERO brake applied as the PILOT MOVES UNDER the rising wing! NB There is only a inch or so A riser applied while bringing the wing off the ground.. in fact I could have done with applying a little bit MORE A's at this stage.
100% (even 'short' impulse) has got to be one of the MOST DANGEROUS bits of launch 'advice' I've ever heard!!!
Tip Launches work well in these conditions BUT was NOT what we were out to film this day!
murrayhay 1 year ago
@murrayhay Sorry, my mistake. By watching the video it looked to me that you were applying brake during the uprise, since it was looking slow!
And do not take my comments as a critique, it's just trying to understand how we (and I am the first who has something to learn) can improve.
With gentle I do not mean that you should be slower in the power zone, but after you past it.
(I write from Italy, what does BHPA stands for??)
yoshyoka 1 year ago
Hi Yoshyoka it is EASY to improve, all pilots world wide need to do is reject the nonsense that is taught to PG pilots!
Almost everything I teach directly contridicts 'normal PG training' which is why I get students traveling to Scotland to RE-train with me from Europe as well as England/Ireland/Wales :-)
murrayhay 1 year ago
NOTE!!! Yoshyoka In this sort of wind I.E. ABOVE the trim speed of the glider... the Ground Speed WILL be 'negative' (you WILL go backwards)
Bringing the wing up more SLOWLY will keep the wing in the stalled stage of the launch for LONGER... which results in a LOT more drag/drag distance!!!
FYI the sort of 'advice' you have given is similar to what I hear from the instructors who generated the 80 odd deaths and THOUSANDS of injuries the BHPA in the UK, have had!!!
murrayhay 1 year ago
checking your airspace is the least of your worries dude. you want to be checking your groundspace as thats where you're gonna be dragged at 20 miles an hour (that gorse bush don't look too enticing!) but you're quite right about BHPA training - i've been trying to get the wing down with brakes in strongish conditions and they quite often make things worse (sudden drags etc.)
ramases1 1 year ago
Hi Ramases, the 'Airspace' is as important in strong conditions as it is in flyable winds :-) In part this is down to 'Regression' (safe v un-safe) i.e. Airspace MUST ALWAYS be a core part of your flying!
BTY I've around 7,000 hrs airtime and have yet to have anything more than a minor bruise or two from playing in these strong conditions :-)
The BEST choice I've ever made was to NOT train with the BHPA back in the late 90's!!!
murrayhay 1 year ago
Wind this powerful may kill you in a split-second!
matijabl 1 year ago
I've done demo's in both stronger winds (flat and ridge sites) as well as demo's in gustier conditions, I would say the SEQUENCE of events that far too often result in injuries/deaths takes at least 20sec to develop.... the KEY is first a SOLID understanding of the Physics at work AND solid training to AVOID both the normal human reactions AND those responses taught/developed during 'normal' PG training!
I've now got about 6,500hrs airtime, much of it in 'top end' conditions!
murrayhay 1 year ago
@murrayhay wow,good words....thx. marco
waldbeobachter 1 year ago
Wind this powerful may kill you in a split-second!
A GOOD Comment for PG pilots to take to heart!
murrayhay 1 year ago
Thanks for your replys Murray.
Look forward to hearing more about your techniques and can you provide me with any references to material that I should read.
For example, what stuff did you read when you self trained?
Thanks again
therealgiblet 2 years ago
The AFE (Air Plan Flight Equipment) PPL training books are a good, aviation related, starting point.... start by study of the 'engine failure' (unpowered) GLIDING section...
Also of course any (high school level) PHYSICS text books, the basic physics involved in PG flight has been well understood for about 300 years.
As my background includes physics little extra study was needed in my case.
murrayhay 2 years ago
My initial post hasn't come through. BAsically, I was saying that your videos encouraged me to start paragliding, although I have no choice where I live to access training from any other source other than the BHPA.
I was wondering if you could explain more fully (perhaps by over dubbing your videos) about what risers are being pulled and when - because ultimately I'm interested in learning the techniques you promote. The more I learn the better!
therealgiblet 2 years ago
Hi I've just got more audio Eq for this.
It can be a LOT safer to 'self train' PROVIDED you do NOT use information in 'normal' PG books... the reason is of course the SAME errors tend to generate the SAME results... (Accident Rates)
This is why I CHOSE to 'self train' to AVOID 'normal' PG accident rates..
The 'experienced' BHPA pilot I got my first wing from would not belive I had never flown when on my very 1st flight I 'out launched' and 'flew circles around' his (BHPA) 'standard'!
murrayhay 2 years ago
Quote 'My initial post hasn't come through'
Try refresh, NOTE posts don't show unless 'friends' until one of the members cliks 'aprove' (I will add you as a friend to save the delay in post appearing on line, handy fo 'split' posts due to word limit on YouTube)
MH
murrayhay 2 years ago
would read with interest and I'm sure others would too.
It is no good you just telling people they are wrong. Just explain in simple terms why and people will understand you better.
Please stop ranting. I'm sure once you have taught as many people as the BHPA you will get to the point where pilots although instructed not to, will make simple mistakes. There is nothing you can do about it once they are not in your control. However, if BHPA techniques are really dangerous I want to know why.
therealgiblet 2 years ago
I've written (and had published) a number of technical & safety articles.
I've been pointing out EXACTLY the errors in 'normal' theory/training that RESULT in 'normal' PG accident rates..
With about 1,000 re-training/training students (since '98) just HOW MANY do think I need to have trained?
The 'mistakes' that tend to injure & kill PG pilots are INSTRUCTION ERRORS..
The bottom line is almost everything the BHPA teach is dangerous i.e. it RESULTS in the BHPA accident rates!
murrayhay 2 years ago
The BIGGEST single factor in incidents is 'REGRESSION'... that is the tendency in humans to revert to their FIRST training.
So taking the example of launch accidents about 40% of PG accidents (including a significant No. of tandem deaths) are a direct result of the errors in 'normal' PG theory.... correct/remove thos core (physics & HP&L) errors and you have a near instant reduction of 40% in PG accident rates!
Yep it IS that easy.. BUT there is no short cut to good solid science!
murrayhay 2 years ago
interesting!
I'd appreciate more info in your posts too. I appreciate you want to get across how many hours you have flying, and how bad the accident rate is for BHPA qualified students but it starting to put me off you.
You must understand that people will listen if you explain properly and don't resort to ranting or even getting into conversations with those people that are simply trying to wind you up.
Perhaps you could start a blog that instructs people about your techniques. I for ..
therealgiblet 2 years ago
First: It is not a case of how many hours I fly... it is a case of how many hours my students fly... WITHOUT suffering from the sort of accident rates that are a RESULT of 'normal' PG training....
A bit of PG history helps to put this into perspective... I WAS in effect willing to leave the BHPA alone (despite the No. of pilots they kill/injure) until THEY started their hate/attack campain against me back in the 90's.. Quoting 'Murray's dangerous, Murray breaks the law' (nonsense) Etc. etc.
murrayhay 2 years ago
Hi Murray
I've watched a lot of your videos and you inspired me to go ahead and learn paragliding.
I don't have the luxury of having anyone else to learn from except BHPA instructors.
I'm interested in everyone's views and would appreciate a more thorough explanation of the techniques you promote.
I don't understand exactly what risers you're using and when as you don't explain in your videos.
Would it be possible for you to overdub some better commentary as I find your videos very ....
therealgiblet 2 years ago
murrayhay and imasuper0308.. You guys should focus less on the insults and more on the interesting stuff. You guys need to behave like adults now.
I have conventional norwegian PG training and that was ok with me. I learned NO skills for strong conditions, but taught myself after the course. 80% of my flying buddies still have no clue about strong conditions. I take off in winds close to my wing's trim speed now. Not fighting the wing is the key, just like M says. Your bragging is childish btw.
andersdr 2 years ago
What is 'insulting' about pointing out WHY 'normal' PG training kills & injures so many PG pilots, remember it's not just the numerous common theory/practice INSTRUCTION ERRORS.. it's the FAILINGS in training that RESULT in PG accident rates!
My stating FACTS is not 'bragging' by the way, if you find the truth uncomfortable then that is something you will need to work through yourself, just as (from your statement) you needed to 'self train' for real flying conditions i.e. launching in a wind!
murrayhay 2 years ago
You said: "Your level of stupidity & incompetence is reaching new highs.." AND "All I need do is out live idiots like you! "
Dell said: "Stop pretending to be an instructor."
I think we need to be a lot more constructive if we want to get anywhere. I think one of the main problems here is the total lack of communication skills you guys are showing. Your "bragging" may be "stating FACTS", but pls stop repeating your 1000s of hours and yrs of experience. Makes you look like a no-good showoff.
andersdr 2 years ago
Being a LOT more constructive in paragliding is VERY... All any an instructor needs do is teach (and demonstrate in EVERY flight!) just how EASY it is to slash PG accident rates by as much as 95%!
Also IF an 'expert' IS making INCOMPETENT statments those who DO have a far higher (safer) standard have a 'Duty of Care' to highlight that fact.
The BEST proof of a higher standard is to simply out live all those who promote dangerous standards, MANY 1,000's hrs SAFE flying reinforce my case.
murrayhay 2 years ago
I really see your frustration, and I truly respect your cause. I'm just saying that to me it seems like you are not getting through to anyone with your ways of communicating. Telling someone that you'll outlive them isn't really the way to get your point through. Again, I understand your frustration. I also agree with you that accident rates are much too high, and that bad training is a big part of the problem.
andersdr 2 years ago
Ref: 'frustration'
In fact I've KNOWN from my very first PG flight that groups like the BHPA will keep doing what they do until the courts stop them... and I NEVER let things beyond my direct control 'get to me' so I'm not frustrated :-)
Ref: 'it seems like you are not getting through to anyone'...
Except that of course I do get a LOT of PG pilots traveling from all over the UK (and abroad) to RE-train with me... so clearly I AM getting through to a growing section of the PG world..
murrayhay 2 years ago
Pilots die in vain, but you are not frustrated. Well done Sir! Well done.
andersdr 2 years ago
I'm from Africa (Kenya) there are a LOT of needless/pointless deaths there...
Regarding PG: Personally I've no problem with PG pilots dying/ending up in wheelchairs due to their CHOOSING 'normal' PG training... PROVIDED their CHOICE was an informed one..
I do however have a big issue with Instructors/sporting bodies lying/missleading those pilots.
murrayhay 2 years ago
AT 2:74 --> This is what always happens to me, when trying to get the wing up in high wind -> The wing speeds upwards then pulls me heavily back and then collapses . After the collapse it dragged me through 50meters of yard :-D It was just impossible getting the wing up without collapsing right after getting up..
EnduroTasmania 2 years ago
2:74?
As a general rule the key component collapse/no frontal collapse is the slope below the pilot.... the issue arises when the pilot clear of the ground swings too far past (under) the rising wing...
murrayhay 2 years ago
2:47 - 2: 50 I mean ^^ In these 3 seconds we can see that the wing pulls so hard that the pilot can't effort not to be thrown under it. That's what happens to me all the time . At that time I didn't know yet that pulling the C's or D's control the wing better then grabbing as much brake as possible , so I was dragged through some gras ^^
EnduroTasmania 2 years ago
The (Safety Risers) C's (or D's) are not used to 'control' the wing as such (harnees/pilot position is used for that)... but rather along with direct/indirect PITCH control the 'Safety Risers' are used during the KILL stage..
NOTE By (direct & indirect) going significantly PITCH NEGATIVE (almost to the stage of a 'frontal' almost no strength is required to 'kill' the wing... this is all about PHYSICS (and skill) not 'fighting' the wing :-)
murrayhay 2 years ago
Comment removed
HotGaSoLine 2 years ago
Today i was very dissapointed when i came home from that "grounhanling" in 16.1m/s, i mean my mojo( not my wing) was crushed, but only that and for short time becouse then i realize that another pilot can end injured.
HotGaSoLine 2 years ago
Hey "imastupid" today i go to grounhandling and the wind it was about 8 to 12 m/s.I decide to give a try and all was good until a gust of wind at 16.1m/s arrived and i was lucky becouse i saw all of Murray clips, not loose my presence of spirit and do what right.I escape untouched eighter me and the wing and all what happend was i learn a lesson, thats all.I would like to see one of your retarded students or even u -the best ignorant in the world- do what i do.
HotGaSoLine 2 years ago
Yep Dell does make a lot of 'interesting' claims.... 'Inventing' Powered **** Skydiving **** is one of his true 'classics'!
murrayhay 2 years ago
I take it, that the guy in this video, who was blown backwards into the hill was one of those badly trained BHPA pilots then??
beau5757 2 years ago
Don't be silly, the first most obvious point is that there is no point in the clip where I am 'blown backwards into the hill'!
High winds and a slope mean there is plenty of lift so it would be easy to fly (with a negative ground speed) up and top land.. but as that would be out of sight of the camera it would be pointless!
In fact the video clip shows how easy it is to AVOID being yet another BHPA accident stat... DESPITE the wind speed easily exceeding 'trim speed'!
murrayhay 2 years ago
I must be one of those dangerous BHPA pilots who see imaginery things
beau5757 2 years ago
'imaginary things'... there is nothing imaginary in the toll of injuries & deaths that RESULT from the incompetence of BHPA instruction.
You said 'blown backwards into the hill', now try to remember that the POINT of the clip is to show how even in NEGATIVE ground speed situations (wind > trim speed) there is in fact no need to end up yet another BHPA accident!
So my CHOOSING to launch and then drift backwards to LAND is certainly NOT a case of being 'blown into the hill'!
murrayhay 2 years ago
Looks like you are from your comments.
This is what he trains/teaches - ground handling and flying a wing in +20kms winds. Can YOU do that with your training right now without breaking something other than your ego ?
FegrusMojo 2 years ago
Question: In view of the number of PG pilots injured & killed over the years following BHPA Ltd 'training' (remembering that a 'pilot' can get a CP rating with as little as 20 mins airtime...)
Do YOU think BHPA Ltd training is good or bad?
murrayhay 2 years ago
Glider safer left in the sack.
beau5757 2 years ago
One obvious problem with that idea is it's hard to film high wind safety videos if you don't take the glider out of the bag :-)
NOTE: No gliders (or pilots) were harmed in the making of this motion picture....
murrayhay 2 years ago
ground handling ground handling groundhandling simple
cookie5347 2 years ago
No, this is what he trains/teaches - ground handling and flying a wing in +20kms winds. Can YOU do that with your training right now without breaking something other than your ego ?
FegrusMojo 2 years ago
Murray, you do not appear in control to me! Of course the wing can be controlled in strong winds with "D"s, brake and line pressure and a careful balance of all 3 but that still does not make it safe in high winds. Flying backwards is never a good idea and being lifted straight up before you can check the canopy is not being in control. A man with a wing purchased on ebay without any knowledge or training would do exactly what you are "teaching". Nice one Murray, keep up the good work!
Wonkymungbeansprout 2 years ago
So Mr 'Anon' Wonky...
Remind me just how many 'pilots' is it that the BHPA have killed now (don't forget the ones so far this year!)
'Safe' is EASY to prove, I've flown well over 4,500hrs since the late 90's, lots of airtime in conditions with winds (like this) of above 20kts..
Note: VERY few wings are safe to control in these winds using the D's... Which is why I teach RE-training EX-bhpa students to use th 'Safety Risers'
NB. on a 3 riser like the Vertex there are NO D's...!
murrayhay 2 years ago
Ha ha - that guy is 'OWNED' big time as he doesn't even know the wing !
Lets see him flying the 'Body Bag' as it's known and see he's 'training' LOL
FegrusMojo 2 years ago
Please please please produce more of these videos!
Very entertaining both from the Chaplin style slapstick humour to reading the comment trail left in it's aftermath! Very funny. I particularly like the part about being in "Control".
mcdudley 3 years ago 7
Hi Dudley
'Control' is obvious, just stop and think about the fact that I have been demonstrating HIGH wind PG control for over ten years on a wide variety of paragliders (both mine and on students own wings) and in that time I have not had a single accident/injury...
I note that on your YouTube account you don't have any PG clips... have you ever flown a aircraft?
murrayhay 3 years ago
Hi Murrayhay,
Just had to watch the film again to be sure we are talking about the same one. If you were in "control" of the glider, firstly you would have it packed neatly in it's rucksack ready for a flyable day. I understand about your apparent need to show people how wings can be handled even in strong conditions but fail to see how being dragged around the hill whilst having a full frontal collapse and even falling over does this.
As for youtube, I choose not to embarrass myself on it.
mcdudley 2 years ago 6
Yep we are talking about the same clip..
This clip (and my others) show just how easy it is to AVOID 'normal' accidents by AVOIDING 'normal' theory/practice/procedures!
NOTE: There would be little point in demonstrating/filming a HIGH WIND safety clip in 'flyable conditions'.
One KEY point is that pilots need to be able to LAND.. in conditions you would not wish to launch (fly) in.. This sort of training RESULTS in a close to zero FLYING accident rate, hence 4,000+hrs SAFE airtime!
murrayhay 2 years ago
i agree, i fleww in wind like that, my mistake. i wasnt ready for the superfast inflation, and stall at start.
ground training in that wind, would have made me more prepared
mijares40 2 years ago
It's not the BHPA that kills pilots Murray, nobody forces pilot to fly in conditions they cant handle or fly wings they cant recover from.
I'm glad your a "safe" pilot, I wouldn't like to think you do what you do and write your scathing rants if you were not completely "safe". I tell myself every time I fly that I am safe, well to the point that I have assessed the risks and am flying to the best of my abilities. Nope! cant find the Safety Risers in my instruction book, are they next to the Cs?
Wonkymungbeansprout 2 years ago
The BHPA could IF THEY HAD THE MORAL COURAGE... slash their accident rates.. but to do so would involve facing up to the truth about all those 'Pilot Error' deaths..
The fact is that any pilot that trains based on 'normal' PG theory/practice/procedures WILL risk falling into the middle of the bell curve of PG accident!
As 95% of what I teach (and of course use EVERY time I fly) DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS the BHPA my students are at the far left of the 'curve' i.e. near zero accidents.
murrayhay 2 years ago
Of course you are free to think that a sporting body WITH NO LEGAL AUTHORITY that passes its self of as the 'UK governing body' & states on its website that PG pilots 'must be a member' etc. while PERMITTING its instructors to 'qualify' Club Pilots with as little as 20 mins airtime is 'Good', DESPITE their appalling accident rates..
Clearly I DON'T think injuring/killing pilots is a good idea!
'Safety Risers' are wing defendant, the ones when used CORRECTLY with the harness 'kill' the wing.
murrayhay 2 years ago
Regarding PG pilots & 'I tell myself every time I fly that I am safe'
PILOTS WILL OF COURSE BASE THEIR VIEW OF HOW SAFE THEY ARE ON THEIR TRAINING/FLYING EXPERIENCE..
It is safe to say that the majority of 'experienced' BHPA pilots/coaches/instructors who had been severely injured/killed also judged that final launch to be for a 'safe flight'...
Personally IF I had done BHPA 'normal' training I judge would have been dead well over 100 times in the last 4,500+ hours flying..!
murrayhay 2 years ago
I agree you travelling backwards over the ground but that is still ill-advised. You are not in control of your aircraft whilst you can not fly forwards over the ground because you can not land safely!
The best and ONLY thing to do if you find yourself flying in these conditions is to kill the wing as quickly as possible and be glad you are OK. You are clearly a very experienced pilot but my concern is that people might imitate what you are doing here. Agreed?
pearyogurt 3 years ago 3
Having demonstrated many 100's of spot landings while flying configured for a negative ground speed clearly it is easy to control the flight & landing even when the WIND speed is above the AIRspeed.
Re 'Kill .. as quickly as possible' this is almost never the best idea, in the vast majority of all ('accidental') negative GS situations is to take your time and CHOOSE the spot for the best landing.
Re 'imitate' the point is to show how easy it is to avoid 'normal' PG accidents!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Looks dangerous to me!
Incidentally, on the first inflation, shouldn't you have been moving towards the glider instead of resisting?
pearyogurt 3 years ago
Yep, the whole point was to show how it is easy to stay safe in conditions which clearly have the potential to be very dangerous!
Eh? As you can seen in the clip I am in fact moving (up slope/down wind) towards the glider (while maintaining the correct line load)
murrayhay 3 years ago
I see, thanks. I'll take another look at the clip; it's tricky to see exactly what's happening and I missinterpreted it.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
pearyogurt 3 years ago 3
Hello Again!
No, still looks dangerous to me; you get lifted and then are flying backwards and then fall over.
I can't see what you are demonstrating other than it is dangerous to inflate your glider in strong conditions because it can't be controlled, may get damaged in bushes and and you will get hoisted into the air and fly backwards.
Maybe a commentry would be good so you can explain what is happening?
Regards.
pearyogurt 3 years ago 2
Mmm there is no 'falling over', at 2:50 I sit down to keep the load on the lines..
As the wind is ranging 15-25kts much of the time the GROUND speed is 'negative', the AIRspeed is of course always 'positive' in flight.
NB. IF it was 'can't be controled' I would not be able to do this year in year out injury free!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Do you have any videos on thermalling or XC tips? I see a lot of soaring but not much else ...
CornishColin 3 years ago
Hi Colin, there are a number of Dual Control Tandem flights that includ thermaling on G-BZJI, currently fairly few solo pure thermal flights.
The reason of course is that most of the clips are filmed on the core training days, more advanced training tends to be up in the Scottish mountains and not carrying unnessary (video) equipment.
Note: XC tips are audio only (Airband Radio)
murrayhay 3 years ago
Hi Murray.
I've READ a LOT of material you've posted on a NUMBER of SUBJECTS. One thing I KEEP wondering is: do you HAVE an INTERMITTENT fault with the CAPS LOCK key on YOUR keyboard? :-)
SonOfRojBlake 3 years ago
Hi no I don't have a problem with either my UK or USA keyboards... however the observant YouTuber will have noticed that there is no facility for italics or BOLD type to indicate KEY points in posts...
Murray Hay
murrayhay 3 years ago
My personal opinion: In strong wind, Flex legs, once the paragliding starts lifting run towards it, do not resist or pull backwards. The purpose is to lessen the force of the wind, not to increase it. Stop pulling on the wing once you're behind the hill (ever heard of rotors and turbulence?).
dannau 3 years ago
I have to state the obvious (ref your comment metric/Knots) that in a 20+ Kt wind you can NOT 'run' as the wing WILL lift you!
The idea is NOT in fact to 'lessen the force of the wind' (DRAG) but rather the pilot should as shown here control/manage the LIFT vector generated by the wing!
NB Rotor is a VASTLY overrated problem, I both fly and launch/land through/past 'rotor' all the time with zero problems!
It's incompetent theory/instruction that generates MOST PG 'Rotor' accidents!
murrayhay 3 years ago
By the way Scott the Welsh PG BHPA instructor I was speaking to the other day (the one that mentioned the BHPA 'CP' [Novice] 'pilot' with a TOATL airtime of 20 mins...) Teaches EXACTLY what I stated is the BHPA 'normal'.. that is 'Ram Air' and 'pressurised'...
Unless of course YOU are saying that in the last couple of days the BHPA has suddenly seen the light and NOW states the PHYSICS I've been teaching for the LAST 10+ YEARS...
murrayhay 3 years ago
Scott If you truly think that it is time you pulled your heaad out of the sand and studied EXACTLY WHY BHPA TRAINING RESULTS IN SO MANY INJURED & DEAD UK PILOTS...
The bottom line remains that as long as what I teach (INCLUDING my SOP's) DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS what the BHPA teach my students will NOT suffer from the accident rates that RESULT from BHPA training/SOP's!
murrayhay 3 years ago
'Operating procedures'.. well we know that 'pilots' can have a BHPA CP [Novice] rating issued with ONLY 20 mins airtime so perhaps BHPA 'operating procedures' CAN be listed in a sentence or two...
However GOOD aviation SOP take a LOT of training to cover, YOU keep showing you can't even grasp basic PHYSICS so I am hardly likely to waste 10+ days teaching YOU what you are incapable of learning/understanding.
NB. It generaly takes RE-training EX-bhpa pilots a LOT longer to learn GOOD PG SOP!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Quote: 'Someone might read .. & think a second time about training with Murray. Murray is reading this & might think a second time about what he is doing..'
Fredrik: MOST OF MY STUDENTS ARE ESCAPING THE DANGERS OF THE BHPA..
Am I going to stop helping pilots CHOOSE to AVOID injury & death at the hands of 'normal' training? NOPE!
10+ years ago I pointed out the errors (DANGERS) in what YOU support.. just ask yourself 'How many 'normal' PG pilots have been injured & died in that time?'
murrayhay 3 years ago
What technique do you use that allows you to bring a wing up and maintain control in such high winds?
I don't live in the UK and as such could not attend any of your courses.
Would you please share your technique in the interests of general safety. What I would hope for is a short description of what I need to do to control the wing in such conditions.
I am an experienced thermic pilot of 12+ years, so groundhandling is well within my grasp.
Awaiting your response Murray, thanks.
freeflyingduck 3 years ago
Hi Rod, the key is to understand the diffrence between DRAG and LIFT.. Start by looking at the problem in reverse, most pilots think after bringing on LOT's of brakes to drop the wing and getting pulled in the latter stages of the wing 'dropping' that this is 'DRAG', when it is in fact mainly LIFT produced by the REVERSED airflow over the top of the wing..
Once students FULLY understand the core difference between 'drag' and 'lift' PULLING them along the ground.. (cont.)
murrayhay 3 years ago
(cont.) then they can apply this to high wind launches (but in REASONABLE winds ~ NB THIS clip is how to survive with NO problem a HIGH wind LANDING..)
In the strong wind launch (MANY Vid clips) the pilot is 'lifted' and due to the 'parachute reaction', they PULL LOTs of brake... etc
The problem with Mitos IN STRONG conditions is it almost locks out 'wing warp' control (and other issues) one KEY to a safe launch is for the pilot to be free to 'warp' the wing.. AND have the risers (cont.)
murrayhay 3 years ago
(con.t) ..have the risers at normal (width) seperation.. NOT held together!
The KEY is to FLY the wing UP.. while the WING brings the pilot (off the ground) to a ON the ground position that is BOTH below AND 'BEHIND' (down wind) the CoP of the wing..
Then the pilot is free to CHOOSE to launch OR to use the safety procedure shown in the clip to 'CYCLE', getting the wing to dive so the pilot is BACK on the ground WITH THE COP WELL AHEAD OF THE PILOTS MASS.. THEN 'SAFETY RISER' KILL THE WING!
murrayhay 3 years ago
NOTE.... AND THIS IS VITAL...
DO NOT EVEN THINK OF TRYING THIS STUFF BASED ON 'NORMAL' PG THEORY...
If you are not sure why simply look at the history of 'normal' PG accident/injury & deaths..
To do this SAFELY, year in year out for over 10 yrs REQUIRES pilots to have a SOLID grasp of the core PHYSICS of PG flight!
UN-SAFE REGRESSION is a significant factor in RE-training pilots STILL having problems in conditions my trained (NOT 'RE') students find fairly easy..
murrayhay 3 years ago
That all sounds wonderful, but it doesn't actually tell me what I need to do to bring up and groundhandle a wing in "higher than trim" wind speeds.
I was hoping for a short description of what I need to do.
The "how" & the "what to do", as it were, I can follow simple instructions.
In the interests of making paragliding a safer sport, it would be good to put this knowledge into the public domain for experienced pilots.
thanks again.
freeflyingduck 3 years ago
Qoute: 'experiance' is mainly (in mainstream PG) simply SURVIVING long enough to be classed as an 'experianced pilot'.. i.e. relys on a LOT of 'luck'.
In RE-training 'experianced pilots' I spend a LOT of time correcting all the errors they were first taught, so ONLY IF you can understand the information (SCIENCE) I have already given you CAN do this safely!
There is NO 'short description' as any answer MUST involve FIRST gaining a SOLID understanding of the (fairly basic) PHYSICS involved.
murrayhay 3 years ago
You are asking me to take your word for it, when it flies in the face of both common sense and the recommended advice from some of the worlds top instructors, not just those from the UK.
As you are not capable of an explanation, I'll simply have to conclude that you're making it up, and I simply don't believe you.
You also suggest "experienced" pilots who are not dead are relying on a lot of luck. Well straight back at you then...
IT'S ONLY LUCK THAT HAS KEPT YOU ALIVE SO FAR.
freeflyingduck 3 years ago
I am not asking YOU to take my word for it, YOU like all PG pilots are free to keep flying based on theories/practices/procedures that RESULT in the accident, injury & death rates normaly seen in the sport.
Regarding your last line.. There were plenty of incompetent PG 'experts' saying that to me over 10 years ago.. Some of them are even still alive!
Over the next 20+ years YOU count the human cost of incompetence, me I will keep providing RE-training to pilots looking to AVOID accidents!
murrayhay 3 years ago
With you (and those like you) I am reminded of a (miss)quote regarding Maggie T & the IRA...
While most ('normal') PG pilots partaking in the 'extreme sport' of paragliding need to be lucky almost EVERY time they fly...
I only needed to be RIGHT once, and that was 10+ years ago.. THAT is the advantage I have from flying (and teaching) based on SCIENCE :-)
murrayhay 3 years ago
OK, I give up.
I simply asked for an explanation of how to do what you say you can do. You have not been forthcoming with that explanation, and until you do I simply won't beleive you.
If you told me pigs could fly I'd ask for proof or a description of how to get them to do it, it only seems reasonable to me.
Enough said I think.
freeflyingduck 3 years ago
Rod, the points I made above are two fold:
1) To understand how to do this SAFELY pilots MUST understand the BASIC physics involved in PG flight, i.e. NOT the incompetent nonsense in PG books! So clearly you start from a massive disadvantage.
2) While the core physics involved IS simple the APPLICATION involves a LOT of overlap/feedback loops, i.e. There is NO 'simple' one paragraph answer.
For 10+yrs I've heard the sort of crap you just posted, DESPITE the evidence shown as in my vids!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Who flies by theory?
Hands up
paraglenner 3 years ago
Just about every pilot in the world!
Scott the actions and responses a pilot makes are goverened by two main factors:
Training undertaken ~ in the case of 'normal' PG this is BASED on 'normal' theory, in the case of 'my' training 95% of the theory DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS 'normal' so there are a vast number of diffrences in the practice.
The second factor CAN be modified by HP&L TRAINING.. IF that training is provided!
In PG simply CORRECT theory errors to slash the accident rates.
murrayhay 3 years ago
HP&L for those that did NOT get Human Performance & Limitations PG training from their CHOOSEN instructor/association is the science of (in simple terms):
How & Why humans can OR fail to learn
In addition~ How & Why they act in response to certain situations and Do/Do Not act in a manner that training (should) dictate.
If you will, the diffrence between the natural 'Human' reaction and the (PROVIDED TRAINED with HP&L) 'Pilot' reaction to the SAME situation.
Human dies/Pilot survives!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Yeah your right Murray I hear every pilot working out the calculations to ensure they fly safly!
Rather the follow operating procedures.
paraglenner 3 years ago
To be of use in the SAFE operation of an aircraft in flight 'operating procedures' are of course BASED on the theory of how the aircraft flys.
PILOTS DO NOT (in general) NEED TO 'CALCULATE' ANY NUMBERS... But they DO need to fly based on CORRECT theory IF they wish to AVOID the sort of accident rates that RESULT from 'normal' PG training!
BHPA 'operating procedures' RESULT in BHPA accident rates! Avoid those errors and you greatly redure your risk exposure.
murrayhay 3 years ago
Example:
'Normal' PG pilots are taught the THEORY that PG wings in flight are 'pressurised by Ram Air', further more they are told that adding brake increases the pressure in the wing.
That particular bunch of THEORY errors has over the years probably injured & killed more PG pilots than any of the other errors 'normaly' taught in the sport!
It should come as NO surprise that as I teach based on SCIENCE what I teach DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS presurised/ram Air (in flight)
murrayhay 3 years ago
Well Fredrik.. which do YOU think sounds a greater number?
Twelve or one dozen?
FL 100 or 10,000 feet?
Of course what you perhaps SHOULD be asking is ~ 'How many dead & injured 'normal' PG pilots are... 'too many'...'
Just try and remember MOST of those (75%) that CHOOSE to train with me are in fact RE-training pilots ESCAPING the dangers of 'normal' (BHPA) training...
Ref: (Is it only me that think that "many 100's of students" sounds less than "WELL over 1,000 pilots"?)
murrayhay 3 years ago
Hi Fredrik, ref club numbers who are NOT BHPA members:
Currently in the LOCAL area (25 miles) we have about 20 pilots who fly with the club.
In the wider (East Scotland) area (mainly to the north) add in another few pilots.
Other parts of Scotland (central & west) another few.
With a few more down in Wales.
NOTE: Over the last 10 years MOST (75%) of my students have been from > 100 miles..
Paul (just up for his 2nd weekend) has NINE 'local' BHPA schools.. yet drives from England!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Is this supposed to show how to ground handle in a strong wind, or HOW NOT TO?
How about using a 's and c's and bringing up the wing in a controlled way? I 've seen day two students in Australia launching better than that in strong winds using the Mitsos method.
bobflyman 3 years ago
Hi Bob, yep I am well aware of 'Mitos'... more important I am well aware of the DANGERS of that method..
YEP I'VE WITNESSED AUS TRAINED PILOTS GET INJURED USING IT!!!
I STRONGLY CAUTION RE-training pilots to stop using 'Mitos'! By the way it DOES work fairly well in 'fresh' but REASONABLE wind speeds.. and at fairly easy locations.. BUT it is VERY risky in strong winds & significantly restricts control options.
I would NEVER personaly use it as I like staying alive & walking too much!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Having witnesses a LOT of BHPA pilots go 'SPLAT' in REASONABLE winds (10-15kts) this clip shows how it is EASY in fact to avoid injury even in conditions WELL above that that can be considered 'reasonable/safe'..
Those like Dave Massie should ask themselves is it moral (and legal?) to support training that RESULTS in the accident. injury & death rates produced by the BHPA?
PG pilots should ask themselves 'Do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution?'
murrayhay 3 years ago
If I saw someone with the ground handling skills demonstrated here (on a wing that's really easy to ground handle), I'd go and offer them some advice as to how to handle strong wind launches, and landings. My advice wouldn't include falling over arse over tit, and grabbing the rear risers. If I did this sort of stuff, (and I'll readily admit I have on occasion), I'd be embarrassed to display it in public as an example of good control.
massdave2 3 years ago
Dave yet another classic example of 'foot in mouth'/ sheer stupidity on your part..
Try and remember just how may BHPA 'trained' pilots have been injured (or died) in wind speed that are less than HALF of these conditions!
The whole POINT of this clip is to show how easy it is, even in winds WELL above trim speed... for pilots to AVOID 'normal' (BHPA) accidents!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Sorry, Murray, it must be be the drugs you're on, or something. The video shows you failing to launch properly, and falling over on landing, and this is teaching us what, exactly? If you want some lessons, I can tell you 3 or 4 better ways to launch in a gale, and some better ways of keeping in your feet. ...and where is my answer to the other question? Not censored, surely?
massdave2 3 years ago
No Dave, what the clip shows is that in winds WELL ABOVE what could be considered 'reasonable' is is VERY easy to avoid becoming yet another 'normal' (BHPA) accident stat!
Your comment indicates you are even more incompetent than I guessed if you belive you can 'tell of 3 or 4 better ways', I know of many OTHER all with + AND - points, none are overall 'better'.
Try to remember unlike you I DO NOT SUPPORT 'training' that has a L O N G history of injuring & killing UK PG pilots!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Question to Dave Massie...
So just how many BHPA pilots have died and been seriously injured now due to the incompetent theory, practice and procedures YOU support..?
NB It was intresting speaking to a BHPA instructor on the phone the other day who commented they had a visiting BHPA CP (Novice) 'rated' pilot asking about the 'conditions'.... turns out he had a TOTAL of 20 mins airtime!
He was scathing of the BHPA (so called) 'FSC'!
No wonder the BHPA accident rates are so appaling!
murrayhay 3 years ago
I'll debate relative accident rates, Murray, when YOU publish accurate figures for your accident rates, eg numbers trained, and accidents occurred, over the last ten years. Then, and only then, can we compare them. This is something you have consistently failed to do so far.
massdave2 3 years ago
The bottom line Dave is that to be SAFER than the BHPA I would only need to have a (slightly) LOWER accident rate than they have..
75% of my students over the last 10 years have been RE-training BHPA pilots CHOOSING a safer standard, it should come as no surprise that RE-training pilots DO choose a SAFER standard...
By the way the chap out today has 1,500 hrs fixed wing/300+ hrs rotary + sailplane + HG etc. etc. and is FULLY (as all are) aware of the BHPA.... SAFETY is EASY in paragliding!
murrayhay 3 years ago
So answer my original question! What IS your accident rate?
massdave2 3 years ago
One problem is that not HAVING any accidents in many of the years.. makes it difficult to have an 'accident rate'!
This is as students who have trained using the THEORY, PRACTICE, & PROCEDURES I teach have, over time, considerably LESS than 5% of the accident rates seen from 'normal' PG (BHPA) training..
Of course in view of the fact there are BHPA CP (Novice) 'rated' pilots with LESS than one hour airtime during 'training'... it is NO surprise it is VERY easy to provide better training!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Don't be ingenuous, Murray, You've already admitted on a public forum that one of your students has been to hospital multiple times, since you 'retrained' him. That creates your accident rate.
massdave2 3 years ago
'Ingenuous' = Candid, Fair, Open, Frank
So YOU are saying.. 'Don't be Candid, Fair, Open, Frank'... (and yes I did look up the word as I was not 100% sure your comment made no sense!)
YOU can make as many stupid/pointless comments as you want BUT the truth is that Duncan had accidents both as a DIRECT & INDIRECT result of his FIRST 'normal' (BHPA) training...
So no matter you much YOU try to distort the truth the most significant factor in UK PG accidents IS the BHPA! (Duncan was PIC)
murrayhay 3 years ago
Oops! I meant to type 'disingenuous'.
massdave2 3 years ago
Well, still makes you totaly wrong.. but at least would (from your twisted 'BHPA' perspective) make some sense..
In end as long as the BHPA fail to learn from their accidents, injuries & deaths they WILL keep hurting their members...
Just as long as I keep teaching what I teach I WILL attract students who do NOT want to suffer 'normal' PG accident rates..
'Pilots' may be subjective in their views but SCIENCE is OBJECTIVE!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Dave remember to be SAFER than the BHPA would ONLY require that my training (THEORY/PRACTICE/PROCEDURES) generate LESS accident, injuries & deaths than BHPA training..
With WELL over 1,000 pilots trained/RE-trained over the last 10 years, and EXCLUDING BHPA 'training' resultant accidents... we are talking still LESS accidents than I have witnessed at ONE BHPA site in ONE afternoon! (BHPA was EIGHT accidents)
murrayhay 3 years ago
1,000?! No, sorry, not even in your Walter Mitty world, Murray. 3 or 4 years ago, you'd trained about 5 people. We could read in your flight diary the names of ALL of them. C'mon, the REAL figures, please.
massdave2 3 years ago
Dave it looks like your incompetence knows no bounds... so while YOU state as 'fact' that a few years ago I'd only 'trained about 5 people'...
YET THERE ARE LOT's OF VIDEO CLIPS WITH LOT's of students... and a significant number of the clips are from years ago..
YOU live in a 'Walter Mitty' world IF you trully think supporting the current BHPA accident, injury & death rate is a 'good thing'.
IF (unlikely) you ever DO want to CUT BHPA accident rates get in touch! For now bye!
murrayhay 3 years ago
why are you bothering to fly? what is the point of this movie? It looks windy...
xckelly 3 years ago
The point (as is clearly stated) is to show that if you use PHYSICS (along with HP&L) in training then it is EASY to prevent paragliding INCIDENTS (situations going wrong) from developing into the far too common BHPA type ACCIDENTS (injury and/or damage), now the procedures demonstrated here are practiced by my student pilots (Esp the EX-bhpa RE-training ones which make up about 75% of my students) BUT of course in FAR more reasonable conditions... RESULT? We do NOT suffer BHPA accident rates!
murrayhay 3 years ago
similar wind could be dangerous even on a flat airfield.Btw that hill looks like in our place :)
ottogiftmacher 3 years ago 2
Correct, of course the reason students TRAIN (but in FAR safer conditions!) for how to land & kill the wing, is so the members can avoid the sort of accidents the sport suffers from far too often. These Practices & Procedures are best ONLY worked on in winds of 10-15 kts! Pilots should then 're-fresh' their safety practice for about 30mins EVERY month. My demonstrating in real OVER LIMIT winds shows students just how effective Precision Safety Procedures are in comparison to what the BHPA do..
murrayhay 3 years ago
I've been training reverse launch wind in similar conditions, with similar problems. Wind was indeed around 13-14 knots. In your case a little bit more maybe like 18 knots? Seems you DO have a problem with your anemometer. Mark
dannau 3 years ago 2
Similar conditions... Intresting so you think 13-14kts (i.e. near perfect small ridge flying conditions) is the same as 20 PLUS knots! Try to get a grip of the basics of paragliding, the TRIM AIRSPEED of the glider is about 20kts... so with a NEGATIVE grounds speed the WIND speed is ABOVE trim speed i.e. GREATER than 20 kts.
murrayhay 3 years ago
Oups, that slipped, I was talking kms of course, not knots (I don't even know what a knot is, I leave that to you in the UK, I'll stay with metric).
dannau 3 years ago
20 (+!!!) Knots is 37kph, a nautical mile is a bit longer than a statute mile (i.e. 10kts is about 11.5 mph)
Use of Knots is fairly standard in aviation hence when teaching even to my non-UK PG students the prime units used are knots, of course for those from metric background I give them the approx values in terms they are more used to.
murrayhay 3 years ago
You miss the point, Murray. The folks you see in the Whidbey clips are very low-time pilots and students - all flying in the same moderate winds that you brag about, and mostly flying better than you. I know, you keep insisting that you're heroicly kiting in 25 knots, but your video speaks for itself - 15 knots tops. If you honestly believe otherwise, then your wind meter is broken. Quit the bragging and practice!
vertigopilotdiablo 4 years ago
Nope however your incompetence as regarding airspeed/wind speed certainly DOES 'speak for its self'! Time you learnt some basics about aviation and paragliding in particular... when flying at trim speed (zero brake) and with a significant NEGATIVE ground speed is a CLEAR indication that the WIND speed is GREATER than the airspeed of the glider.. i.e. indicates in this case wind speeds well ABOVE twenty knots... Feel free to comment further only WHEN you finaly learn some of the basics!
murrayhay 4 years ago
Murray, laddie: wake up and smell the coffee. If this video is supposed to be an example of your stellar skills, then you need few thousand more hours ground-handling. I expect better results from my 50 hour students. By the way, you're confusing knots for kilometers, Sally. 25km is nothing to brag about.
vertigopilot 4 years ago
You have just proved your incompetence at least on the subject of wind speeds/airspeed of the glider! It is of course 25 KNOTS.. or if you prefer 28.8 mph or 46 Kmh ('25km' would be a DISTANCE not a speed!) As I said I would have serious doubts as to the odds of you surviving 'kiting' in these conditions, which are as even a new student could see are in winds WELL above the trim speed of a paraglider!
murrayhay 4 years ago
I wonder in your 'vast experiance' when you will (if ever) get around to posting up your FIRST ever PG clip on YouTube... Here is a suggestion... start in EASY conditions of say only 25kmh winds.. (by the way that's only a nice easy 13.5kts...)
murrayhay 4 years ago
I'm laughing so hard I can barely type! Maybe I'll get around to posting some footage soon. In the mean time you can view a few of my students. Just look for videos on Whidbey Island soaring. Thanks for the laughs!
vertigopilot 4 years ago
Mmmm nothing 'funny' (excluding the tongue twisters) on the (11) Whidbey Island clips, there is some nice flying in easy conditions... BUT also a LOT of VERY poor standard ground handling/launches/landings, I guess the pilot 'standard' reflects the quality of training... to quote one clip on some pilots fortunate survival... 'Lucky man...!' Oh and some VERY poor 'tandem' standards!
murrayhay 4 years ago
What are doing up at four in the morning obsessing over youtube comments? Get some rest. You'll need your energy to work on your ground handling. At least we agree on the lack of skills among those tandem schmucks - they don't have the skill to fly themselves, let alone passengers.
vertigopilot 4 years ago
I am at work... (and being amused by the ineptitude of your comments!) by the way it was about 3am which is only just the end of the typical working day for me! Based on your students/fellow pilots GH lack-of-skills they could do with coming over to (windy!) Scotland to RE-train with me... Oh and have you worked out yet that 25 kts nearly DOUBLE 25kmh... I look forward (Don't kill yourself!) in time to seeing you GH in 25kts at an inland site...
murrayhay 4 years ago
Quote 'Maybe I'll get around to posting some footage soon.'
And a year later... NOPE Vertigopilots has still not got a single YouTube paragliding clips... so no surprise there!
Oh and it's also no surprise I am still getting lots of RE-training BHPA pilots as well as those that come from abroad... as they also wish to AVOID 'normal' PG accident, injury & death rates!
murrayhay 2 years ago
Well I'm beat Murray, clearly your 4,500+ hours has made you an exceptionally gifted pilot, not that anybody would know, you are clearly very modest about it!
My dear old Grandad at 96 is a very experienced driver so he tells me, very switched on. I guess he must be due to all the hours he has racked up behind the wheel. Always very open to new ways of thinking.
Happy flying Murray, maybe catch you on a hill someday!
(Now where do I attach my Wing Defendants? On the ends of my Brummels?)
Wonkymungbeansprout 2 years ago
Nope its simply science no a 'gift'..
My very first flight I 'flew circles' around the BHPA (Hill & Tow) pilot who was selling his wing and leaving the sport after one too many accidents!
He would not believe I had never flown before... which showed the MASSIVE advantage of flying a paraglider based on science rather than the nonsense the BHPA preaches! I've been pointing out exactly why 'normal' training RESULTS in accidents since '98, when I had my first RE-training EX-bhpa student!
murrayhay 2 years ago
Wing defendants?
You've got me intrigued...
;-)
murrayhay 2 years ago
Not too bad for a low-time intermediate. With a few refinements you should be able to control and fly that wing in those moderate-wind conditions. Keep working on it. You'll get there. Be the wing.
vertigopilot 4 years ago
VERY amusing... OR.. I would have to guess you don't actualy fly paragliders! 'moderate wind' Mmmmm 25kts is in fact Beaufort Force 6.. just a couple more knots (Force 7) is clasified as 'Near Gale'... By the way don't even THINK of trying this sort of wind speed until like me you have flown several THOUSAND hours airtime on comp & DHV 2/3 gliders!
murrayhay 4 years ago
Try not to take yourself too seriously, Murray. 3000hrs and 10 yrs makes you very much my junior. But my comments weren't meant to pull rank. Kiting badly in 25 knots is not something to brag about, except to grommets who stand around with their knees knocking. Instead of bragging about "killing" the wing, redirect your efforts to flying the wing. 25 knots is not a big deal if you've got it together. BTW, is all of your airtime is on comp wings, or do you log your lesser-mortal time separately?
vertigopilot 4 years ago
What I take VERY seriously is 'normal' (BHPA in the UK) training that keeps killing and injuring pilots.. Gusty 25kts + some thermals, so this is in fact VERY good ground handling (kiting)! I would be 'intrested' in seeing YOU (but try not to kill yourself) 'kite' in these conditions/location. In addition to the hrs on comp and (modified) ex-DHV 2/3 wings I've down about 1,000 hrs on lower rated wings.. (not including LOTS of GH time by the way!)
murrayhay 4 years ago
All these training schools just rip you off. I am completely self taught. Going out and learning fro yourself how the wing works and how to control it is much more rewarding and gives you a better understanding. Paragliding schools are for retards with too much money.
bomaoneuk 4 years ago
I'm not to sure which schools the comment is directed at but as a self taught pilot & instructor I have to agree with the sentiment based on what those coming to me having first 'trained' with the BHPA say! Hence I've approved your comment!
murrayhay 4 years ago
since I havent been to any school, none in particular. The only time I think schools could be of any real value are when they try and refine skills already learnt or teach more complicated moves
bomaoneuk 4 years ago
Ok, most 'pilots' coming to me to re-train have spent about 900 pounds doing the BHPA EP & CP course and generaly range in 40 (FORTY!) mins to 5 hours airtime... this has often taken one to two years... with me it is not unusual to soon average over three hours per day!
murrayhay 4 years ago
It's easy to log up 3 hrs a day when you count your hours when you arrive on the hill and not time spent in the air, 3000hrs in scotland in 10years. I find that hard to believe as I have lived in the Alps for 15years and have just under 2000hrs. Oh by the way I don't register my glider with innsbruck airport or count my hours when I clip in my harness and was BHPA trained.
xckelly 3 years ago
Yep it would be... however unlike those who train with the dangerous incompitent instructions of the BHPA which has in the last ten years RESULTED in many thousands of accidents and about 70 deaths in the UK, I only count my airtime as air time! On a decent day either Dual Control tandem training or just solo flying I will often FLY eight hours in a day!
murrayhay 3 years ago
Oh and by the way so far THIS month I've flown on 15 days including Dual Control tandem training flights lasting up to an hour per flight with a total of 6 new students... with currently being fairly busy with work the flying has on some days only been for an hour or two between or after photoshoots so it looks like being a sub 50 hours airtime month...
murrayhay 3 years ago
High wind control ? What control ? You're being dragged all over the place. And to even think that you got your wing out of the bag with 25 knots blowing ? That's almost 10 km/h over trim speed! Crazy and irresponsible behaviour especially from an instructor ...
CornishColin 4 years ago 3
I have to presume you are a supporter of the bhpa... remind me just how many of their members have been seriously injured (or worse)... The clip show that it is in fact easy to fly down and land SAFELY if the conditions pick up... provided pilots do in fact understand who our wings work... something the bhpa clearly have no clue about as indicated by their appaling accident rates!
murrayhay 4 years ago
It may also help you to consider that theses days 75% of my students are EX-bhpa 'pilots' who are no longer prepared to put up with thie accident rates, as 95% of the theory and so much of the practice DIRECTLY CONTRIDICTS the bhpa we of course do NOT suffer from the typicl PG accident rates! Showing it pays to train to a better standard!
murrayhay 4 years ago
Well I guess you're not advocating flying at 25 knots then, thats good or your going backwards. Are you perhaps trying to demonstrate b-stalling for killing the wing in high wind after landing ? It wasn't clear to me. I don't do politics, haven't lived in UK for 15 years can't comment on how BHPA pilots fly - don't think **that** many are dying though.
CornishColin 4 years ago 2
Trim speed of the glider (in air) is approx 20kts, with the pilot on the ground trim speed is around 17kts (due to pitch change). flat out in air (pilot configured to give MAX drag + speed bar) is about 28kts. "Bstall" is a VERY BAD idea, use the "safety risers" (C's in this case) instead. Mmm only if about 70 is considered "not many".... It is NOT about "politics" it IS about incompitence in PG sporting bodies!
murrayhay 4 years ago
In view of your comment I have added the following to the description for clarity...
"At PPC we train to be able to LAND safely if needed if the wind increases too ABOVE trim speed. NB. for students this training is done in winds that remain BELOW trim speed".. MH
murrayhay 4 years ago
First it is NOT of course B-stalling... that would NOT make the wing do what is seen in the clip! Rather use of the "safety risers" (in the case of this wing the C's). Re BHPA deaths.. well that rather depends if you consider (UK only) 70 odd deaths to be "not many"... not to mention the thousands of others "only" injured...
murrayhay 4 years ago
hey great vid murray now i know how 2 go out and get dragged around and look like a total pr**
i realy didnt see any skil l in this video
even when building a wall you couldnt tell that the tips were going to come up faster than the middle and to me it was obvius you should come down to yorkshire and ill give you some lessons on ground handeling
cya
parakid ric
ppgerric 4 years ago