@fretfrek jerk, which world?? did u see any foreign maps, where nkr mentioned as armenia ? this is your dream not mine..moreover, if it is not occupied territories why armenia doesn't recognize NKR? why? coz they afraid of being occupants.Furthermore, AGHDAM is not part of Nagorno Karbakh, it is part of the 7 regions which are under occupations.that's fuck yourself and your nose.
@fretfrek dalbaeb,firstlyy, this is not armenia, for ur concern..secodnly, it's territories which are under occupation.Thirdly, all what u see , got destroyed by dickhead armenians.
almost all azeris were forced out of Armenia by the end of 88. While Armenians lived comfortably in Baku until 1990. So if you are blind to 1-2 year lag between events in Armenia nad Azerbaijan. go read up on archives.
The end of in 1988, is already something AFTER Sumgait and Kirovabad pogroms. And I can hardly imagine a comfortable life in Baku when you know that an anti-Armenian pogrom happened in Sumgait in 1988, mostly unpunished and multiple pogroms were going on in Kiravabad. By the end of 1988, about 100,000 Armenian residents of Kirovabad were gone. Most of Baku Armenians were packing their bags and leaving immediately after Sumgait, until the remainders were finished off in 1990.
yeah in 1988 there were plenty of Azeris in Yerevan being loaded onto trans and chased out of Armenia. Though I disagree with violance agains Armenians inSUmgait, but it was primarily because there at least 200K Azeri that were kicked out of Armenia proper that were settled in Sumgait. So here is your cause and effect. re-Rise of Amenian nationalism in 87, ethnic cleansing of Azeris from mainland Armenia 87-88, backlash of agains Armenians in Sumgait in 88.
There were no 200K Azeri refugees before Sumgait pogrom. Maybe not even 1k. At most a small group of them from Kapan and nearby places in Zangezur came. I doubt there were even 100K, much less 200K in Zangezur. A few 10s thousands at most and not all forced to leave before Sumgain pogrom.
Armenian ultro nazzi dashnag tsutsun party made sure there are almost no ethnic groups left in territoro of Armenia and occupied territories of Azerbaijan. where Azerbaijan does have embargo on Armenia, but it is still amutiethnic state with many caucasian and non-caucasian nationalities well represented. So when one million Azeris can return to their occupied hiomeland then maybe Armenians will be welcome in Baku. untill then Armenia is gonna stay in economic isolation.
Let me remind you that most of 400,000 or so Armenians that were forced to leave Azerbaijan were forced to leave by mid-1990 or so. At that time, most Azeri's, who are now refugees, including those living in former NKAO and the territories around it were still living in their homeland. Stepanakert was under non-stop fire from Shusha and Agdam. Expelling Azeris and ruining their cities was the only way to stop the Azeri aggression against Armenians.
If Azeris were not expelled from the territory around NKAO, then the war would never end and at worst Armenians would have been expelled, just like Armenians of Northern Karabakh were: those from Artsvashen, Getashen, Kamo, Shahumian,etc . All were expelled in 1992 or before then. Regarding Azeris from Armenia proper, how can you imagine them living there at the when Kapan and Goris were under non-stop fire from Azeri side? People from Kapan had no food and were cut off from the rest of Armenia.
and let me remind youthat by 1988 befoere Karabkh issue even surfaced almost entire Azeri population of Armenia was evicted. The agressions towards Armenians in Azerbaijan did not start until 90s which was due to influx of large number of Azeri refugies.
This happened again by 88 and not by 92. so dont tell me how it is or it was safe in Armenian for Azeris. There was nofire or food shortage in Azeri villages inmainland Armenia. But they were forced to cross the mountains barefoot or on trains and busses that were shot at. And this all happend in 87-88in Armenia proper. and again way before there was any violance against Armenians in Azerbaijan
when dashnaks were beating Azeris out of Yerevan and Kafan and later infectred Karabakh rmenians with ulta nationalism and separatism Azerbaijan had no nationalist movementg. The nationalism that rose in Azerbaijan in 80s was reactionary.
thus if you r going to start pointing fingure learn the history, and accept the dashnaks role behind hte death of innocents both on zeri and Armenian sides.
I can accept history, but clearly not your version which was fed to you by Azeri state propaganda. I can see the brainwashing clearly from your non-stop references to dashnaks. They exist and are nationalists, but their role in the whole thing was far less than what Azeri propaganda ascribes to them. It actually does not have the intended propaganda effect.
ARF (Dashnaks) is an opposition political party in Armenia that gets usually less than 10% of vote in most elections. According to your story, they were responsible for all evil things done to Azeris, automatically clearing the role of the rest of Armenians.
Dasnaks is ulta nationalist party that may only get 10% of fake votes in Armenia, is responsible for Azerbaijani genocide. they were the instrument of execution in hands of Bolsheviks at the begining of last century. In Baku alone they slaughtered 20K Azeris.
This number just keeps getting bigger. Most historians put Azeri victims of March masacres between 5 and 10 thousand, which is still a huge number. And note that then the same year in September, Azeris killed between 10 and 20 thousand Armenians in Baku.
But let's drop this anyways. The fact is that anyone with an Armenian name cannot go to Azerbaijan, point. But Azeris can visit Armenia, and even NKR. This was my claim originally and it still stands.
The state-sponsored anti-Armenian racism of Azerbaijan cannot be compared even to the Dashnaks of today, who are not a ruling party, and who really are only a caricature of what they were in early 20th century.
By 1988 there were plenty of Azeri in Yerevan proper. Sumgait pogrom was in February 1988. Only after that mass migration of Azeris started all over Armenia.
Like I said, any Azeri, anyone actually, can travel to Armenia and NKR. Get an NKR visa, and that's that. There are Georgian Azeris selling their produce in northern Armenia. It might indeed be a case that if you try to go too far in NKR, say in the former Kelbajar (that's Karvachar for you now) or Fizuli, you might not be allowed to go there because those territories are a military zone with a higher level of security. But if you want to visit say Shusha or Stepanakert, that should be no prob.
Armenian state kicked 1 million azeris outr Armenia and Azerbaijani proper so you can then tell that Azeris can travel to their homeland only if they get a visa from Armenia. Ofcourse state of Azerbaijan in going ot embargo Armenia. Kelbajar is Internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan aunder Armenian occupation for you.
It's not the Armenian state that's preventing those refugees from returning. Most of those refugees are not from mountainous Karabakh, but the areas that surround it. Most Armenians agree that if Azeri government had a serious intention of giving up a claim to what does not belong to it then most of those refugees would have been living on their homeland again. But Azeris are maximalists. They want everything, and I am afraid that in the end, they will end up with nothing because of that.
dear friend, i like you feel very sorry for the situation of this town. also, as i live in a muslim country and do know a bit more about the culture itself, it actually hurts my heart to see this "house of god" in this conditions. thanks for the comment.
Azerbaijanis can travel to Yerevan (on Armenian visa, which they can obtain in Tbilisi), obtain there NKR visa in their passport and go to NKR. No problem. At the same time, half of million Armenians who were born in Baku, Gandzak, and other places in Azerbaijan cannot go there to visit graves of their ancestors, no matter which passport they hold right now.
what about the 100Ks Azeris that were beaten out of Armenia? r U gonna guarantee their security when they try to go to their motherland in Kafan, Yerevan and etc? It's total BS that Azeris can freely go visit their ancestoral grave in Shusha.. total BS or Aghdam or Lachin or kelbejer, or Fizuli and etc. How canyou claim that Armenia is safe for Azeris to visit after all the ethnic cleansings inArmenia? It is the only monoethnic state in the Caucasus. and it became that way in last few decades.
I am not going to guarantee anyones safety in Armenia, not only of Azeris but even of Armenians. There isn't a 100% guarantee that you're not going to run into some idiot who would say or do something bad, specially after a war. Nonetheless Armenia should be a safe country for Azeris. Unlike in Azerbaijan, where there is a state-level state-run hate campaign against everything Armenian, there is no such thing in Armenia, and most people don't say anything bad about Azeris who lived in Armenia.
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@fretfrek
Go fuck yourself, you ugly Armenia shit!
KoolCamSucka 1 year ago
@fretfrek jerk, which world?? did u see any foreign maps, where nkr mentioned as armenia ? this is your dream not mine..moreover, if it is not occupied territories why armenia doesn't recognize NKR? why? coz they afraid of being occupants.Furthermore, AGHDAM is not part of Nagorno Karbakh, it is part of the 7 regions which are under occupations.that's fuck yourself and your nose.
Emilaze 2 years ago
@fretfrek dalbaeb,firstlyy, this is not armenia, for ur concern..secodnly, it's territories which are under occupation.Thirdly, all what u see , got destroyed by dickhead armenians.
Emilaze 2 years ago
that evil city should have been destroyed like cathage by now
atfatw 2 years ago
almost all azeris were forced out of Armenia by the end of 88. While Armenians lived comfortably in Baku until 1990. So if you are blind to 1-2 year lag between events in Armenia nad Azerbaijan. go read up on archives.
agilm 2 years ago
The end of in 1988, is already something AFTER Sumgait and Kirovabad pogroms. And I can hardly imagine a comfortable life in Baku when you know that an anti-Armenian pogrom happened in Sumgait in 1988, mostly unpunished and multiple pogroms were going on in Kiravabad. By the end of 1988, about 100,000 Armenian residents of Kirovabad were gone. Most of Baku Armenians were packing their bags and leaving immediately after Sumgait, until the remainders were finished off in 1990.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
yeah in 1988 there were plenty of Azeris in Yerevan being loaded onto trans and chased out of Armenia. Though I disagree with violance agains Armenians inSUmgait, but it was primarily because there at least 200K Azeri that were kicked out of Armenia proper that were settled in Sumgait. So here is your cause and effect. re-Rise of Amenian nationalism in 87, ethnic cleansing of Azeris from mainland Armenia 87-88, backlash of agains Armenians in Sumgait in 88.
agilm 2 years ago
There were no 200K Azeri refugees before Sumgait pogrom. Maybe not even 1k. At most a small group of them from Kapan and nearby places in Zangezur came. I doubt there were even 100K, much less 200K in Zangezur. A few 10s thousands at most and not all forced to leave before Sumgain pogrom.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
Armenian ultro nazzi dashnag tsutsun party made sure there are almost no ethnic groups left in territoro of Armenia and occupied territories of Azerbaijan. where Azerbaijan does have embargo on Armenia, but it is still amutiethnic state with many caucasian and non-caucasian nationalities well represented. So when one million Azeris can return to their occupied hiomeland then maybe Armenians will be welcome in Baku. untill then Armenia is gonna stay in economic isolation.
agilm 2 years ago
Let me remind you that most of 400,000 or so Armenians that were forced to leave Azerbaijan were forced to leave by mid-1990 or so. At that time, most Azeri's, who are now refugees, including those living in former NKAO and the territories around it were still living in their homeland. Stepanakert was under non-stop fire from Shusha and Agdam. Expelling Azeris and ruining their cities was the only way to stop the Azeri aggression against Armenians.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
If Azeris were not expelled from the territory around NKAO, then the war would never end and at worst Armenians would have been expelled, just like Armenians of Northern Karabakh were: those from Artsvashen, Getashen, Kamo, Shahumian,etc . All were expelled in 1992 or before then. Regarding Azeris from Armenia proper, how can you imagine them living there at the when Kapan and Goris were under non-stop fire from Azeri side? People from Kapan had no food and were cut off from the rest of Armenia.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
and let me remind youthat by 1988 befoere Karabkh issue even surfaced almost entire Azeri population of Armenia was evicted. The agressions towards Armenians in Azerbaijan did not start until 90s which was due to influx of large number of Azeri refugies.
agilm 2 years ago
This happened again by 88 and not by 92. so dont tell me how it is or it was safe in Armenian for Azeris. There was nofire or food shortage in Azeri villages inmainland Armenia. But they were forced to cross the mountains barefoot or on trains and busses that were shot at. And this all happend in 87-88in Armenia proper. and again way before there was any violance against Armenians in Azerbaijan
agilm 2 years ago
when dashnaks were beating Azeris out of Yerevan and Kafan and later infectred Karabakh rmenians with ulta nationalism and separatism Azerbaijan had no nationalist movementg. The nationalism that rose in Azerbaijan in 80s was reactionary.
agilm 2 years ago
thus if you r going to start pointing fingure learn the history, and accept the dashnaks role behind hte death of innocents both on zeri and Armenian sides.
agilm 2 years ago
I can accept history, but clearly not your version which was fed to you by Azeri state propaganda. I can see the brainwashing clearly from your non-stop references to dashnaks. They exist and are nationalists, but their role in the whole thing was far less than what Azeri propaganda ascribes to them. It actually does not have the intended propaganda effect.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
ARF (Dashnaks) is an opposition political party in Armenia that gets usually less than 10% of vote in most elections. According to your story, they were responsible for all evil things done to Azeris, automatically clearing the role of the rest of Armenians.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
Dasnaks is ulta nationalist party that may only get 10% of fake votes in Armenia, is responsible for Azerbaijani genocide. they were the instrument of execution in hands of Bolsheviks at the begining of last century. In Baku alone they slaughtered 20K Azeris.
agilm 2 years ago
This number just keeps getting bigger. Most historians put Azeri victims of March masacres between 5 and 10 thousand, which is still a huge number. And note that then the same year in September, Azeris killed between 10 and 20 thousand Armenians in Baku.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
But let's drop this anyways. The fact is that anyone with an Armenian name cannot go to Azerbaijan, point. But Azeris can visit Armenia, and even NKR. This was my claim originally and it still stands.
The state-sponsored anti-Armenian racism of Azerbaijan cannot be compared even to the Dashnaks of today, who are not a ruling party, and who really are only a caricature of what they were in early 20th century.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
By 1988 there were plenty of Azeri in Yerevan proper. Sumgait pogrom was in February 1988. Only after that mass migration of Azeris started all over Armenia.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
Like I said, any Azeri, anyone actually, can travel to Armenia and NKR. Get an NKR visa, and that's that. There are Georgian Azeris selling their produce in northern Armenia. It might indeed be a case that if you try to go too far in NKR, say in the former Kelbajar (that's Karvachar for you now) or Fizuli, you might not be allowed to go there because those territories are a military zone with a higher level of security. But if you want to visit say Shusha or Stepanakert, that should be no prob.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
Armenian state kicked 1 million azeris outr Armenia and Azerbaijani proper so you can then tell that Azeris can travel to their homeland only if they get a visa from Armenia. Ofcourse state of Azerbaijan in going ot embargo Armenia. Kelbajar is Internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan aunder Armenian occupation for you.
agilm 2 years ago
It's not the Armenian state that's preventing those refugees from returning. Most of those refugees are not from mountainous Karabakh, but the areas that surround it. Most Armenians agree that if Azeri government had a serious intention of giving up a claim to what does not belong to it then most of those refugees would have been living on their homeland again. But Azeris are maximalists. They want everything, and I am afraid that in the end, they will end up with nothing because of that.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
It's really sad to see the town in ruins and especially the conditions of the mosque but a traveler doesn't take sides, he travels and discovers.
chennaiszauna 3 years ago
Sad to see that tourist from Hungary can climb the tower of the mosque, but native Azerbaijanis of Aghdam cannot even visit their ancestoral graves
agilm 3 years ago
dear friend, i like you feel very sorry for the situation of this town. also, as i live in a muslim country and do know a bit more about the culture itself, it actually hurts my heart to see this "house of god" in this conditions. thanks for the comment.
joaopedroleitao 3 years ago
well if it lightens your pain, armenians also are not allowed to go there
hosank 3 years ago
Azerbaijanis can travel to Yerevan (on Armenian visa, which they can obtain in Tbilisi), obtain there NKR visa in their passport and go to NKR. No problem. At the same time, half of million Armenians who were born in Baku, Gandzak, and other places in Azerbaijan cannot go there to visit graves of their ancestors, no matter which passport they hold right now.
urchalka2000 2 years ago
what about the 100Ks Azeris that were beaten out of Armenia? r U gonna guarantee their security when they try to go to their motherland in Kafan, Yerevan and etc? It's total BS that Azeris can freely go visit their ancestoral grave in Shusha.. total BS or Aghdam or Lachin or kelbejer, or Fizuli and etc. How canyou claim that Armenia is safe for Azeris to visit after all the ethnic cleansings inArmenia? It is the only monoethnic state in the Caucasus. and it became that way in last few decades.
agilm 2 years ago
I am not going to guarantee anyones safety in Armenia, not only of Azeris but even of Armenians. There isn't a 100% guarantee that you're not going to run into some idiot who would say or do something bad, specially after a war. Nonetheless Armenia should be a safe country for Azeris. Unlike in Azerbaijan, where there is a state-level state-run hate campaign against everything Armenian, there is no such thing in Armenia, and most people don't say anything bad about Azeris who lived in Armenia.
urchalka2000 2 years ago