yeah realizing we are 3 parts, mind body and spirit, we must bring all essences to the same discipline. it would be just as foolish to say "ah, it doesn't matter what you think! the symbols are useless, the aim is free thought!"
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For all of those who are wondering, as long as you achieve the goal of meditation, it doesn't matter how you sit. Sitting in the lotus position may be more traditional, but it is not necessary. Laying one hand on the other may help, but that isn't necessary either. I have seen Buddhist monks sit in many different ways including cross-legged, lotus, full-lotus arms it side, arms fully extended in front of you, etc. As long as you can meditate, do not worry on tradition at first. Mind over body.
@ChrisRiley93 but does it matter if you sit at all, if you can go throughout your day, walking around talking to people doing work, but not actually think a single thought or put yourself in this state of consciousness then is it the same as just sitting still?
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should this manner of zazan prove to be unpleasantly difficult see yuttadhammo's zen video 'how to meditate '(old) but still good!! he uses a theravada buddhist pose which is very simple and very easy to do and poses no hinderance to zazen no counting necessary
I don't quite agree with the part that you should make sure you have no pain. For me the physical pain I can get after sitting for a long time does have a meaning and I think it teaches me something. So, I would not say that you are doing something wrong when you experience pain while sitting.
I also can't sit in half or full lotus, even with something under my butt. No chance that my knees rest at the ground, something would break.
To be honest I think some postures are helpful, but not a requirement, e.g. there is also walking meditation. If you compare the two, then it's clear what both are about: To be within the moment, observe thoughts, emotions as the come and go, without drifting away, always coming back to your body e.g. your breath, your feet touching the ground etc.
i can do the lotus without being taught, because i am very elastic by nature, but my back hurts when i try to keep erect and that is a distraction because i am having some back problems (a lumbar hernia). I also find laying down without touching any part of my body with my hands or feet a lot more relaxing and helpful. is that incorrect, or it doesn't really matter? can anyone give me some advice?
I shows that "promatheos" has really no idea about Zen meditation. Posture and breathing help with both concentration and clearing the mind from clutter, not slouching on a sofa staring at the items in the room. Perhaps he should start reading "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind", by S. Suzuki, as a start. Then seek a local Zen center and receive instructions, if he is interested in real meditation.
nice, but if this is aimed at novices how on earth are they expected to sit in half-lotus? Let alone full? Unless they are already yoga experts this is just not going to be possible.
I've never understood the need for strict rules. If we all have an innate buddha nature then surely practicing Zen in a way that is most comfortable for each of us is THE way.
I have been trying to sit in half lotus for about a month now and I still can put my knees to the floor. I have much better results sitting in a more comfortable position. I try strech when watching TV maybe in 6 months my legs will be flexible anough for the half lotus.
I find that the Burmese position is a good posture as well ! Here one simply sits with knees on floor and feet on floor Read Suzuki Beginners mind :-) The posture is important but not sacred !
Zazen means just sitting. The student must practice without trying to achieve any goal, and in times of difficulties learning to adapt. Right posture, breathing deeply naturally. Nice =]
The method of zazen allows one to see what going on with ourselves if practiced. We as human beings don't really connect with our original nature. We have been conditioned, overwhelmed, and subject to an identity that brings pain and suffering; we know this as our false self, the ego... which seeks only to gain at all costs.
The method of zazen is to realize this false self that limit us and to transcend it so that one can connect once again with the true nature of reality.
Buddha probably didn't even really fully consider himself enlightened for to do that he would be differentiating. It isn't something one can really talk about without losing the Dharma battle.
Hi Ummarth9 - According to the early Pali Suttas Gotama Buddha addressed his former friends thus: "Do not call me friend. I am [now] a fully enlightened Buddha, a Tathagata, and I now teach."
It seems modern notions of modesty don't sit well with ancient Indian enlightened types :-) And why should they?
"Dharma battle" sounds a tad zen to me; Gotama was born at a different time, in a different culture. Let's not forget he was a human being.
Thus we can pose the question.. Did Buddha consider himself a "master"..did he teach a method for others to become "masters".. or was he teaching the way to become a Student....
Also, since I have mentioned the concept of a "goal" to this practice.. I would also be inclined to state that the "Goal" is infact, not a "finite" one. Honestly in the truest concept of MA.... no one is a "master" ... in fact all are students for the Goal is joyfully an Infinite one with infinite reward.. thus the reason the "masters" never stop their own practice..
Personally... I believe the secrets of various Breathing techniques during meditation are for more beneficial to achieving the goal then simply posture alone.. but when combined.. Bliss becomes plentiful... Peace..
But at the same time.. if your goal is the Ultimate goal.. then doesn't it make sense to make the most of your efforts/time spent in the practice of meditation by utilizing the advantages that these postures provide.
Spine alignment and posture is extremely important in achieving the chemical reactions that take place in the "awakened mind"..it has to do with the nervous system and allowing the energy to travel up your spine to your mind from the lower mid section... it is highly, highly, highly advantages to put in the work to meditate in these postures.. but i would say.. not an absolute requirement in achieving the state of being that is the goal..
I shows that "promatheos" has really no idea about Zen meditation. Posture and breathing help with both concentration and clearing the mind from clutter, not slouching on a sofa staring at the items in the room. Perhaps he should start reading "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind", by S. Suzuki, as a start. Then seek a local Zen center and receive instructions, if he is interested in real meditation.
I think all of this posturing and where your eyes should be and hands in egg shapes etc is nonsense and distracting. If you're thinking "Am I in the right posture? Is my back straight? Where am I looking?" you aren't even doing zazen.
Just sit in any way that's comfortable for you. This is a mind practice not a body practice.
Mind and body is not separated...if you think it is not important the posture then you have never practiced zazen, that is the teaching of budha transmitted throughout all the patriarchs...If that way is ok for you just dont transmit it as the right posture. If you want comfort go lie in a hammock !
No one is an authority that can say this way of sitting is right and all others are wrong. There's tradition, sure. There's also wisdom in ways to sit that won't hurt your back and legs. But there is no "official" way to meditate anymore than there is an official way to eat or to sleep. Everyone is different.
Wrong, there sure is a "right zazen posture" , just as there are right postures for yoga asanas, for karate katas, for speed swiming, for running the 100 meters dash etc... The zazen posture is the posture Budha adopted under the bodhi tree where he realized his true nature. It has nothing to do with tradition, it is transmission.
Sure everyone is different, but the zazen posture is the way it is. If not, then it is not zazen. I said before if you want comfort go meditate in a hammock.
No one knew until he stood up, and started teaching it, and later transmitted it to Mahakasyapa, who then transmitted it to Ananda and so on it passed through Bodhidharma, Dogen, Keizan, Deshimaru...
I'll can concede all of this, because I'm not as educated on the topic as you are, obviously.
But even admitting my ignorance, I still must disagree that the posture is essential. Do you believe that the Buddha could not have realized our true nature if he was sitting in another way, or even laying down?
I believe posturing can be very helpful, certainly. But it's not as necessary as you seem to believe.
In the Shobogenzo it is written that when someone asked Dogen " why practice zazen when there are many other ways of waking to our true nature (Tai Chi, Kung Fu, Visualization, Chanting sutras, Meditate in a chair, in bed...etc)" Dogen answered: "Because zazen is the main gate to enter the Dharma". Sure there are many other ways..It is just a pitty that many people advice on how to practice zazen when they have never sat in the posture. My advice: always make an extra effort.
@Promatheos Keeping the spine straight is the most important aspect of the posture, it will facilitate breathing, energy flow, concentration, and is the most ergonomically correct way of sitting, though you should not force yourself into any posture, just take it step by step and relax into the posture and one day you will not need to think about it.
By the way zazen is both a physical and mental practice as mind and body are interconnected, you can't train one and not the other.
@Promatheos : The posture is a very important part of Zen meditation. The straight sitting posture allows you to removes any strain while you practice. It also allows the diaphragm to move freely. The eyes are kept nearly closed so as to cut off visual distractions while restraining the body from going into sleep. The Cosmic mudra is also significant. These are mere guidelines. You can meditate while lying down, while walking or sitting on a chair.
haha i wish it were true for me. my knees have tendonitis from over training. it feels very real to me... but i use my training as a type of meditation. I am christian and an athlete so i like to train in the presence of God it is very relaxing for me.
It could be very bad for your knees. It depends on your physical... I have been practicing for more than 15 years now, and my knees are in very bad condition....But still parcticing sometime...It s also possible to practice on a chair!
You're right it sucks on the knees, for me anyway, so i sit alternatively until Im flexible enough but i dont think i have correct bone structure for this
I thought the same thing when i started martial arts. It's a flexibility problem. try doing it for a minute a day and add an additional minute every week. after about 2 months you will feel that it is no problem at all to sit for at least 15 mins.
eyes pointing down... one metre in front. Except when your mind is wandering all over the bit, you're eyes are pointing up, left, right, sometimes down. So I'm noticing at least... Then there are the eyes themselves how they sense and what they access--- eyes seem to be doing a lot more than physically sensing all the time... Not really sure what i'm trying to say here, but there you go ha ha
I do not want to seem too fussy, but someone had to correct his posture (one reason why is good to practice in community. Someone goes around to correct). He did not pull his chin in enough and his left shoulder is very much higher than the left one. If you film an exemplary sitting, do not allow your model such mistakes. Thumbs have to be horisontal, without pushing against each other. The model is seemingly a bit tensed (sanran). There are too many incorrect positures in videos and books
Very nice introduction. i believe the full lotus is discouraged in the west nowadays. also, they eyes are usually kept open in zazen. not mentioned here.
No offense, but apparantly your mind was wondering a bit during the video. Watch again. As for the full lotus, I don't know where it's discouraged unless it's too uncomfortable. Full lotus is best.
so what if the mind wanders. r u trying to feign perfection? one of the problems with spiritual people. also, full lotus is too difficult on the legs for most westerners doing daily sitting.
"If you make (yourself) a sitting Buddha this is precisely killing the Buddha. If you adhere to the sitting position, you will not attain the principle of Zen." -- Zen master Huai-jang
Exactly. Sit comfortably. There is no need to create undue suffering, whether by the contortions of your own body or another. There is suffering enough in life as it is.
The idea is not to follow the in and out breath but to be before the in and out breath so as to surround (pari) it in the sense of exiting (mukham) from it (UdA 188). Our true nature is not in the cycle of breathing but before the cycle of breathing.
This is interesting. I've been doing Zazen for a little while and the correct breathing is very challenging. For some reason it's easier for me not to count but focus on my hara and the breath. Sometimes I feel I'm doing it right and sometimes not. But I can never pinpoint it. it's more like a groove I get in and slip out, on and off. I agree with you about the sitting Buddha, but when meditating right one is not just sitting. One is involved in a very active process.
Lotus is not compulsory for meditation. You can sit in half-lotus, no lotus whatsover or even sit upright in a chair. Just make sure you have no pain in your back or legs. Also if you sit, use a thick high cushion to raise your knees off the ground and help you correct a sagging back. If your goal is to sit in Lotus, there are a few stretching exercises and some Yoga positions that can help.
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If you want to waste your time with this garbage thats your decision. I've already been there, done that. Its abunch of rules and postures and sitting and breathing,all non sense,means nothing, accomplishes nothing. we are high functioning animals nothing more ,live your life and stop wondering about things that have no merit, like this.
Maybe this doesn't work for you, even though it may help for others. My interpretation is that the rules, breathing, etc are tools to focus on your inner (spiritual) development. But, without a mentor or teacher who can help you focus on what you cannot describe in words, or logic, you will most likely fail to evolve spiritually.
It sounds like you have rejected your spiritual side. This is your choice to do so. However, remember that is your opinion and it doesn't apply to everyone.
High functioning animals... who's minds have been stained with the gift awareness, of being able to know that we know. The animals have not left the garden of Eden, we are outcast who seek to return to the PRESENT. It is a double edged sword, but zen is a path. Zen says nothing about God, morals, political doctrines, ethics, and rules.... it says when you eat truly EAT, when you drink truly DRINK.
I prefer someone like this 'killerwocz' extremely harsh, but he speaks of HIS experience, than someone who writes things that he has not lived! The great risk of zen is this unbelievable tradition of aforism, koan, that must to be secret, showed only for those who really are ready!
Waste of time.Buddhism is so fatalistic. After a while in buddhism you begin to think what is the point of anything.Which could on one hand be comforting,but it just left me feeling very empty. So much of it is utter non-sense. Just as crazy as any other religeon.
Your commentary shows clearly you are confused. Buddha emphatically denied nihilism. You need first to find a proper dharma teacher and ask him before taking confused conclusions like that.
i figured out buddhist are dead people walking. i turned to my wiccan roots. the desire to live was leaving me in buddhism. That desire is life. not death in a void of nothing. There is a god and there is a Goddess and that spirit is in me. im alive. but if you do zen and be buddhist thats ok too. ;]
i would suggest that you have not understood the basic principles of Buddhism, what to speak of way of Zen.
you may still want to remain a sleep enjoying your dreams of gods and goddesses and create belief systems that justify your desire addictions. if you want to face reality and the honest experience of true being, then zen is the gate-less gate.
Unity, that is quite unzen...your body only screams pain because you believe that it needs to not feel pain. focus on the one that is everything, the soup of our perceptions, and mold it into that of absolute non-negative creation within your own self. Then you realize pain is just like the sun, and waken to the new identity of your self at each moment in being
Even enlightened beings feel physical pain. Setting oneself on fire (like the famous Buddhist monk of the Vietnam protest) is not pleasant. Do not deny pain. When in pain, be fully in pain. Do not think of escaping pain. Do not imagine the moment of no-pain. Go deep into pain. Breathing in, breathe in pain. Breathing out, breathe out pain. Be completely present to the reality of your experience in the moment. No wandering thoughts about other moments and what could be. There is no "could be".
Isn't it natural to avoid pain and seek pleasure? Can we be fully human, or even living beings, if we accept pain and don't attempt to change our painful circumstances? Isn't the central idea of Buddhism that existence entails suffering and that we can escape from that pain through Buddhist practice? With zazen we attempt to still the monkey-mind that lures us into unhappy circumstnces. With a quiet consciousness like a still pond on a windless day, our minds reflect the world. Or not . . .
how much pain do you feel? DO you eat anything you like and actually taste it? I dont .. do you see well . i dont.. do you wiegh your right weight ..i dont. only thing is i feel pain at least i know im alive.
this is a tough thing to do when your overweight and have arthritis. My right foot was cracked once and ever since then hardly can walk on it let alone put it under my leg. I know excuses excuses. So how do you sit quiet when your body screams pain.
Remember this method is only for people who WANT to meditate using THIS method. There are many methodsand one must use one that suitable for your emotional and physical needs. No, you DONT have to sit in this position (very few adults can). As a Buddhist and Meditation Teacher i encourage my pupils to sit on cushions,on a bench or simply on a hard backed chair. If the body is relaxed and at ease, the mind relaxes and focuses. Peace to all.
Thanks! As a new Buddhist, I've hd a hard time with some of the meditation postures because I have implants in my ankle, and that makes it hard sometimes for me. Thanks again.
The realization that there is no separation between all things animate and inanimate, self and other, large and small, is enlightenment. So is knowing there is only now and not a past or future. You do not choose to realize these things, there is no choice to be made at all. You either come to understand or don't, either one is Zen. Zazen might quiet the mind enough for realization to occur.
The wandering of the mind does not came from the breath, why concentrates on the breath(your breath have nothing to do with the things that going on in your mind)? Go straight to your mind and concentrate in your mind, turning many things to one thing and from one thing to nothing. When there is nothing then your original mind will show up.
there is a physical link between tension in the stomach and the slowing of thought, strong words from someone who meditates. The counting of the breath is also a beginners exercise, once mastered one typically moves on to shikantaza or "just sitting".
I can recommend using a meditation bench. You sit in seiza instead. It is also wery usefull! I have knee problems, thats why I cannot sit in lotus position. The most importion thing is to sit in balance, with straigt back, chin in and breathing correct, using the hara - ocean of energy!
And remember to train step by step with patient. To meditate should be an enjoying thing, not a boring thing!
These postures are not practical for todays modern man. Most westerners I know cannot even sit with their legs crossed long enough to eat dinner in a Korean restaurant! how can you expect them to meditate peacefully when fighting against their own body? I know the body can adjust but can it adjust before a man loses interest in the pursuit of nothing?
I know, I had that problem when I first began to practice zazen. It's a good example of the middle way though. One dosen't need to subjugate the body or ignore it. Realize it's there, accept it for what it is so that you might continue your practice beyond that.
This is what I hate of western society, we want things to change to suit our needs but we are unwilling to change ourselves for another thing. What makes us think we are so superior as to force change on others?
if you are too lazy to adjust to a posture, than you should just quit.
so basically anyone who as had a hip replacement is lazy and therefore cannot do zazen? what about people with one leg? are you sure that in order to meditate/zazen that you HAVE TO attain this position?
So called 'enlightenment' means: truth realization. Do you think Truth cares how you sit? Do you think a human without arms or legs wouldn't be able to 'get elightened'? Duh. Truth realization is not about effort. You are already That. Find out what you are. That is liberaton.
The position in zazen, as in other methods of meditation, is an aid. Can a person with no arms and legs eat? Of course. But for those WITH arms and legs, eating becomes much easier once you know how to use a fork and spoon. In other words, for those who are able to follow correct posture and practice, this will be benificial for them. For those who cannot for whatever reason (older, etc) modifications are obviously acceptable.
The buddha himself became enlightened by himself and by his own efforts. Think about it, he didnt have any buddhist books to go read haha... However we nozw have many resources at our disposal that can help us on the path wit much more ease. What has been proven to work for others for literally thousands of years is something to at least try for yourself.
Well,no person becomes enlightened. That's not how it works. What is realized (by direct experience, not by reasoning or thinking about it) is that 'that which is awake' is being you. Not the other way around. No identity, no doer, no 'owner' of experience. In a way: no I. May sound strange but it can't bt put in words anyway. I'm not saying meditation isn't usefull, only that posture really makes no difference.
Posture makes no spiritual difference, this is true. However it makes a practical difference. For instance, few people can meditate while laying down because they fall asleep. So this position is not benificial for meditation. The proscribed postures have been found to be the most condusive to meditation, and are helpful for most, if not all, people.
The Buddha did 'become enlighted'. Perhaps you seek to point out that it is just a realization of what has always been, as opposed to a new object being introduced?
This is true, but the moment whn the Buddha experienced this realization is refered to as his enlightenment, ie when h became enlightened. Obviously language cannot properly express this, but that is the standard usage.
The Buddha studied for many years with many teachers before he became enlightened. He reached enlightenment himself, as most meditators are striving to do, but he didn't just become enlightened without some previous help.
It's a valid point, yes. However the validity of the teachings you are refering to is rather shakey to say the least. While he did indeed study under many different teachers in many different philosophies, the point is that he came to reject these teachings.
very interesting thanks
distractionxx 1 week ago
some great inforamtion here thanks
rodswebdesign 1 week ago
yeah realizing we are 3 parts, mind body and spirit, we must bring all essences to the same discipline. it would be just as foolish to say "ah, it doesn't matter what you think! the symbols are useless, the aim is free thought!"
towerofrebel 3 weeks ago
posture isnt all that important, just look at eckhart tolle, dude is a zen master and sits like a chooch.
Truburgh 3 months ago
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August Turak talks of the red hot cannonball of zen. Is his karma missing? Or was there a leap in evolution?
bezelbub2010 4 months ago
It is the Mind that sits.
MrOhjok 8 months ago
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RoseannStewart 9 months ago
For all of those who are wondering, as long as you achieve the goal of meditation, it doesn't matter how you sit. Sitting in the lotus position may be more traditional, but it is not necessary. Laying one hand on the other may help, but that isn't necessary either. I have seen Buddhist monks sit in many different ways including cross-legged, lotus, full-lotus arms it side, arms fully extended in front of you, etc. As long as you can meditate, do not worry on tradition at first. Mind over body.
ChrisRiley93 9 months ago
@ChrisRiley93 but does it matter if you sit at all, if you can go throughout your day, walking around talking to people doing work, but not actually think a single thought or put yourself in this state of consciousness then is it the same as just sitting still?
nikokungreenfuzzey 7 months ago
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ArielSebastianikx 11 months ago
..corps et esprit ne font qu'1 .....
cabochard76 1 year ago
should this manner of zazan prove to be unpleasantly difficult see yuttadhammo's zen video 'how to meditate '(old) but still good!! he uses a theravada buddhist pose which is very simple and very easy to do and poses no hinderance to zazen no counting necessary
atfatw 1 year ago
:P i think i am sitting in the half lotus posture right now and i was doing so also while watching this video. :P
UberGamer1030 1 year ago
For the full lotus, do you recommend sitting on a cushion or on a completely flat surface?
pragzter 1 year ago
I don't quite agree with the part that you should make sure you have no pain. For me the physical pain I can get after sitting for a long time does have a meaning and I think it teaches me something. So, I would not say that you are doing something wrong when you experience pain while sitting.
wortels85 1 year ago
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dings1337 1 year ago
I also can't sit in half or full lotus, even with something under my butt. No chance that my knees rest at the ground, something would break.
To be honest I think some postures are helpful, but not a requirement, e.g. there is also walking meditation. If you compare the two, then it's clear what both are about: To be within the moment, observe thoughts, emotions as the come and go, without drifting away, always coming back to your body e.g. your breath, your feet touching the ground etc.
dings1337 1 year ago
Very nice. I do enjoy sitting in half-lotus more than full-lotus. It is more comfortable.
faetrn 1 year ago
i can do the lotus without being taught, because i am very elastic by nature, but my back hurts when i try to keep erect and that is a distraction because i am having some back problems (a lumbar hernia). I also find laying down without touching any part of my body with my hands or feet a lot more relaxing and helpful. is that incorrect, or it doesn't really matter? can anyone give me some advice?
Sainasan 1 year ago
you can also sit in seiza!
Kizenkai 1 year ago
Is the breathing a normal breathing, during this meditation, or it is abdominal (buddhist), or reverse abdominal (taoist)?
kenadra13 1 year ago
I shows that "promatheos" has really no idea about Zen meditation. Posture and breathing help with both concentration and clearing the mind from clutter, not slouching on a sofa staring at the items in the room. Perhaps he should start reading "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind", by S. Suzuki, as a start. Then seek a local Zen center and receive instructions, if he is interested in real meditation.
Fajian
.
fajian2007 1 year ago 2
superb, thank you very much
frezai 1 year ago
nice, but if this is aimed at novices how on earth are they expected to sit in half-lotus? Let alone full? Unless they are already yoga experts this is just not going to be possible.
JO911B 1 year ago
I've never understood the need for strict rules. If we all have an innate buddha nature then surely practicing Zen in a way that is most comfortable for each of us is THE way.
Phranky 1 year ago
I have been trying to sit in half lotus for about a month now and I still can put my knees to the floor. I have much better results sitting in a more comfortable position. I try strech when watching TV maybe in 6 months my legs will be flexible anough for the half lotus.
timmydeleu 1 year ago
I find that the Burmese position is a good posture as well ! Here one simply sits with knees on floor and feet on floor Read Suzuki Beginners mind :-) The posture is important but not sacred !
mizz77anna 1 year ago
Zazen boys rock!!!
supersyrupboy 2 years ago
How to empty your mind?
Easy! Be the observer of the egos thoughts, just let them flout by...
mattiasbrand 2 years ago
Zazen means just sitting. The student must practice without trying to achieve any goal, and in times of difficulties learning to adapt. Right posture, breathing deeply naturally. Nice =]
iistee 2 years ago
The method of zazen allows one to see what going on with ourselves if practiced. We as human beings don't really connect with our original nature. We have been conditioned, overwhelmed, and subject to an identity that brings pain and suffering; we know this as our false self, the ego... which seeks only to gain at all costs.
The method of zazen is to realize this false self that limit us and to transcend it so that one can connect once again with the true nature of reality.
CerebralTwilight 2 years ago
Buddha probably didn't even really fully consider himself enlightened for to do that he would be differentiating. It isn't something one can really talk about without losing the Dharma battle.
Ummarth9 2 years ago
Hi Ummarth9 - According to the early Pali Suttas Gotama Buddha addressed his former friends thus: "Do not call me friend. I am [now] a fully enlightened Buddha, a Tathagata, and I now teach."
It seems modern notions of modesty don't sit well with ancient Indian enlightened types :-) And why should they?
"Dharma battle" sounds a tad zen to me; Gotama was born at a different time, in a different culture. Let's not forget he was a human being.
hceggeberth 2 years ago
Thus we can pose the question.. Did Buddha consider himself a "master"..did he teach a method for others to become "masters".. or was he teaching the way to become a Student....
eternalbliss786 2 years ago
Also, since I have mentioned the concept of a "goal" to this practice.. I would also be inclined to state that the "Goal" is infact, not a "finite" one. Honestly in the truest concept of MA.... no one is a "master" ... in fact all are students for the Goal is joyfully an Infinite one with infinite reward.. thus the reason the "masters" never stop their own practice..
eternalbliss786 2 years ago
there is no "reward"
Bjarku 2 years ago
Personally... I believe the secrets of various Breathing techniques during meditation are for more beneficial to achieving the goal then simply posture alone.. but when combined.. Bliss becomes plentiful... Peace..
eternalbliss786 2 years ago
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there is no "goal"
Bjarku 2 years ago
But at the same time.. if your goal is the Ultimate goal.. then doesn't it make sense to make the most of your efforts/time spent in the practice of meditation by utilizing the advantages that these postures provide.
eternalbliss786 2 years ago
Spine alignment and posture is extremely important in achieving the chemical reactions that take place in the "awakened mind"..it has to do with the nervous system and allowing the energy to travel up your spine to your mind from the lower mid section... it is highly, highly, highly advantages to put in the work to meditate in these postures.. but i would say.. not an absolute requirement in achieving the state of being that is the goal..
eternalbliss786 2 years ago
A bit too dark...
FormerlyMrBean667 2 years ago 5
I shows that "promatheos" has really no idea about Zen meditation. Posture and breathing help with both concentration and clearing the mind from clutter, not slouching on a sofa staring at the items in the room. Perhaps he should start reading "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind", by S. Suzuki, as a start. Then seek a local Zen center and receive instructions, if he is interested in real meditation.
Fajian
.
fajian2007 1 year ago
Can't see a damn thing either, FormerlyMrBean667
SiliconBong 3 months ago
I think all of this posturing and where your eyes should be and hands in egg shapes etc is nonsense and distracting. If you're thinking "Am I in the right posture? Is my back straight? Where am I looking?" you aren't even doing zazen.
Just sit in any way that's comfortable for you. This is a mind practice not a body practice.
Promatheos 2 years ago 19
Mind and body is not separated...if you think it is not important the posture then you have never practiced zazen, that is the teaching of budha transmitted throughout all the patriarchs...If that way is ok for you just dont transmit it as the right posture. If you want comfort go lie in a hammock !
videovolador 2 years ago
The "right" posture...? There's no such thing.
No one is an authority that can say this way of sitting is right and all others are wrong. There's tradition, sure. There's also wisdom in ways to sit that won't hurt your back and legs. But there is no "official" way to meditate anymore than there is an official way to eat or to sleep. Everyone is different.
Promatheos 2 years ago
Wrong, there sure is a "right zazen posture" , just as there are right postures for yoga asanas, for karate katas, for speed swiming, for running the 100 meters dash etc... The zazen posture is the posture Budha adopted under the bodhi tree where he realized his true nature. It has nothing to do with tradition, it is transmission.
Sure everyone is different, but the zazen posture is the way it is. If not, then it is not zazen. I said before if you want comfort go meditate in a hammock.
videovolador 2 years ago 2
And how would anyone know how he was sitting? He was alone.
Promatheos 2 years ago
No one knew until he stood up, and started teaching it, and later transmitted it to Mahakasyapa, who then transmitted it to Ananda and so on it passed through Bodhidharma, Dogen, Keizan, Deshimaru...
videovolador 2 years ago
I'll can concede all of this, because I'm not as educated on the topic as you are, obviously.
But even admitting my ignorance, I still must disagree that the posture is essential. Do you believe that the Buddha could not have realized our true nature if he was sitting in another way, or even laying down?
I believe posturing can be very helpful, certainly. But it's not as necessary as you seem to believe.
Promatheos 2 years ago
In the Shobogenzo it is written that when someone asked Dogen " why practice zazen when there are many other ways of waking to our true nature (Tai Chi, Kung Fu, Visualization, Chanting sutras, Meditate in a chair, in bed...etc)" Dogen answered: "Because zazen is the main gate to enter the Dharma". Sure there are many other ways..It is just a pitty that many people advice on how to practice zazen when they have never sat in the posture. My advice: always make an extra effort.
Peace and Love.
videovolador 2 years ago
@Promatheos i aprecciate your comment
japanhorror1 1 year ago
@Promatheos
comfort is a distraction i find. Sometimes its better not choosing which way u sit, ul just be giving into desire in a small way.
penguinxxxx 1 year ago
@Promatheos Keeping the spine straight is the most important aspect of the posture, it will facilitate breathing, energy flow, concentration, and is the most ergonomically correct way of sitting, though you should not force yourself into any posture, just take it step by step and relax into the posture and one day you will not need to think about it.
By the way zazen is both a physical and mental practice as mind and body are interconnected, you can't train one and not the other.
libriano91 1 year ago
@Promatheos it is a mind practice and a body practice as well.
Zenboy23 10 months ago
@Promatheos from my perspective, mastering the body comes before mastering the mind. but to each his own. there are many ways to wiggle ones noodle.
LucidWhispers 10 months ago
@Promatheos You are a very wise person.
ChrisRiley93 9 months ago
@Promatheos not true:
/watch?v=bsOI9UoHW2M
JackNuttsack 8 months ago
@Promatheos Both. Mind and body. Hence the focus on the posture.
MilesD3 4 months ago 10
@Promatheos : The posture is a very important part of Zen meditation. The straight sitting posture allows you to removes any strain while you practice. It also allows the diaphragm to move freely. The eyes are kept nearly closed so as to cut off visual distractions while restraining the body from going into sleep. The Cosmic mudra is also significant. These are mere guidelines. You can meditate while lying down, while walking or sitting on a chair.
spartanthree100 2 weeks ago
@spartanthree100 I concur...but: eyes somewhat open w/ 'soft' focus is the way i was taught(Choygam Trungpa)...
Some do eyes closed...
posture is extremely important.
Peace
caryzia 1 week ago
@Promatheos Mind and body aren't separate in Buddhism. Also, it's not like the posture is difficult AT ALL so why complain about it?
destructicon500 2 days ago
Looks almost like self-hypnosis
NYCZ31 2 years ago
oh and i didn't mean to offend anyone i just have a histiory in personal training and i cant help but point out things like that.
teamjinsoku 2 years ago
that looks like it would be very bad for you knees.
teamjinsoku 2 years ago
your knees are an illusion
baronkinder 2 years ago 2
haha i wish it were true for me. my knees have tendonitis from over training. it feels very real to me... but i use my training as a type of meditation. I am christian and an athlete so i like to train in the presence of God it is very relaxing for me.
teamjinsoku 2 years ago
haha
danfranthizzco 2 years ago
your mom is an illusion
tjd07x 2 years ago
your knees are a donut.... and also a clandestine nebula.
rjs0416 2 years ago
Oh Yes, you are right,
It could be very bad for your knees. It depends on your physical... I have been practicing for more than 15 years now, and my knees are in very bad condition....But still parcticing sometime...It s also possible to practice on a chair!
chezfranck 2 years ago 2
You're right it sucks on the knees, for me anyway, so i sit alternatively until Im flexible enough but i dont think i have correct bone structure for this
tjd07x 2 years ago
I thought the same thing when i started martial arts. It's a flexibility problem. try doing it for a minute a day and add an additional minute every week. after about 2 months you will feel that it is no problem at all to sit for at least 15 mins.
Humble Regards
Keep up the Budo
budoispeace 2 years ago
hankafuzaは俺のお気に入りだ
sfg4yrg 2 years ago
I meditate lying down and become much more aware than when I sit. I don't fall asleep.
itsonelouder1 2 years ago
can we sit on something else for example bed?
windslasherx 2 years ago
If we don't have any zafu.
windslasherx 2 years ago
Yes, of course.
nanhuazhenren 2 years ago
YOU don't sit Zazen!
ZAZEN sits Zazen!!!
AlaskanSky 2 years ago
yes!
tegid699 2 years ago
excuse me, whenever I try this my feet fall asleep. What am I doing wrong?
ollilui 2 years ago
Take your sitting position down a notch, or sit further forward on your zafu.
Nihm420 2 years ago
Nothing, it´s normal in the beginning.
nanhuazhenren 2 years ago 2
This is some trippy stuff.
pisisamio7 2 years ago
There are other postures for the legs as well - kneeling with a support cushion or in a chair.
JayWeik 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
"Anti Christ" is "Lord Maitreya".
He is truly "Lucifer" himself !
"Little Pebble" & "Father Jean-Marie" defeat "Lord Maitreya"!
littlepebble2 2 years ago
this could help if there were some video!!
infrenis 2 years ago
Nice but... there is much more to learn with the body and to concentrate the mind.
unzoshokan 2 years ago
helpful...
originalmtnb72 2 years ago
clouds float silently
around in the river
get up you wimps!
gusheneshin 2 years ago
How come i was taught "daimond mudra?"
mizdierbeatz 2 years ago
eyes pointing down... one metre in front. Except when your mind is wandering all over the bit, you're eyes are pointing up, left, right, sometimes down. So I'm noticing at least... Then there are the eyes themselves how they sense and what they access--- eyes seem to be doing a lot more than physically sensing all the time... Not really sure what i'm trying to say here, but there you go ha ha
johnny1250000 2 years ago
eyes half open? häää? this isn´t easy, also the lotos seat.... and how can I breath easily when I have to sniff?
Vagabund92 2 years ago
don't worry about it
sniff, scratch, stretch
whatever
& then come back
your body and mind will wander
keep coming back
that is the practice
onebobtwo 2 years ago 29
"sit and think not in words"
mizdierbeatz 2 years ago 3
i like this. its concise.
agenorski 2 years ago
we are what we think having become what we thought......
gands1102 2 years ago
JUST sit.
DoctorIncredible 2 years ago 3
I do not want to seem too fussy, but someone had to correct his posture (one reason why is good to practice in community. Someone goes around to correct). He did not pull his chin in enough and his left shoulder is very much higher than the left one. If you film an exemplary sitting, do not allow your model such mistakes. Thumbs have to be horisontal, without pushing against each other. The model is seemingly a bit tensed (sanran). There are too many incorrect positures in videos and books
dozo328 2 years ago
correct
incorrect
have to be
much to fussy
for a beginning guide
onebobtwo 2 years ago
Very nice introduction. i believe the full lotus is discouraged in the west nowadays. also, they eyes are usually kept open in zazen. not mentioned here.
ChiothHaQadesh 2 years ago
No offense, but apparantly your mind was wondering a bit during the video. Watch again. As for the full lotus, I don't know where it's discouraged unless it's too uncomfortable. Full lotus is best.
zencat 2 years ago
so what if the mind wanders. r u trying to feign perfection? one of the problems with spiritual people. also, full lotus is too difficult on the legs for most westerners doing daily sitting.
Jaime439 2 years ago
there comes a time to walk...let's go for a walk zen
aerycksmusic 2 years ago 2
easier said then done lol
mmfcljuggalette4lyfe 2 years ago
"If you make (yourself) a sitting Buddha this is precisely killing the Buddha. If you adhere to the sitting position, you will not attain the principle of Zen." -- Zen master Huai-jang
mujaku 3 years ago 2
Exactly. Sit comfortably. There is no need to create undue suffering, whether by the contortions of your own body or another. There is suffering enough in life as it is.
Shadsykins 2 years ago
There is no principle of Zen to attain. Simply sit, do nothing more.
plathhs 2 years ago
I did Hankafuza for about a week but now my right knee is killing me. Is there any way to remedy this? It's been like this for over a month now.
taichibailongball 3 years ago
The idea is not to follow the in and out breath but to be before the in and out breath so as to surround (pari) it in the sense of exiting (mukham) from it (UdA 188). Our true nature is not in the cycle of breathing but before the cycle of breathing.
mujaku 3 years ago
This is interesting. I've been doing Zazen for a little while and the correct breathing is very challenging. For some reason it's easier for me not to count but focus on my hara and the breath. Sometimes I feel I'm doing it right and sometimes not. But I can never pinpoint it. it's more like a groove I get in and slip out, on and off. I agree with you about the sitting Buddha, but when meditating right one is not just sitting. One is involved in a very active process.
losos2008 3 years ago
No "I",..... no problems,..... or.. not. ;-)
teatonaz 3 years ago 2
Can you tell me this stretching exercises and Yoga positions.
I try realy hard to sit in kekkafuza and hankafuza position but my legs hurts,sry for my bad english.
danijeelm8 3 years ago
Lotus is not compulsory for meditation. You can sit in half-lotus, no lotus whatsover or even sit upright in a chair. Just make sure you have no pain in your back or legs. Also if you sit, use a thick high cushion to raise your knees off the ground and help you correct a sagging back. If your goal is to sit in Lotus, there are a few stretching exercises and some Yoga positions that can help.
emptymindfilms 3 years ago 3
I can,t do lotus posture is there any exercises for this?
danijeelm8 3 years ago
It is the thinking above not-thinking
It is the thinking, but not-thinking
Not-thinking, but thinking
This is the thinking from depth of not-thinking
LevisOrdo 3 years ago
It may not make you suddenly realize some amazing truth but it is very stress relieving.
ArmesPryein 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
If you want to waste your time with this garbage thats your decision. I've already been there, done that. Its abunch of rules and postures and sitting and breathing,all non sense,means nothing, accomplishes nothing. we are high functioning animals nothing more ,live your life and stop wondering about things that have no merit, like this.
killerwocz 3 years ago
Maybe this doesn't work for you, even though it may help for others. My interpretation is that the rules, breathing, etc are tools to focus on your inner (spiritual) development. But, without a mentor or teacher who can help you focus on what you cannot describe in words, or logic, you will most likely fail to evolve spiritually.
It sounds like you have rejected your spiritual side. This is your choice to do so. However, remember that is your opinion and it doesn't apply to everyone.
WhoWorksInSilence 3 years ago
well if it dosent work for you thats your problem. Dont get pissed off at the method, there are so many. And everything is relative.
clickswitchh 3 years ago
High functioning animals... who's minds have been stained with the gift awareness, of being able to know that we know. The animals have not left the garden of Eden, we are outcast who seek to return to the PRESENT. It is a double edged sword, but zen is a path. Zen says nothing about God, morals, political doctrines, ethics, and rules.... it says when you eat truly EAT, when you drink truly DRINK.
BE.... HERE..... NOW
FreshD2008 3 years ago 4
everything is what you make it to be, if it was empty it was because you made it like that.
lithaine 3 years ago
good opinion...now here comes mine...you´re an ignorant hick
LevisOrdo 3 years ago
I prefer someone like this 'killerwocz' extremely harsh, but he speaks of HIS experience, than someone who writes things that he has not lived! The great risk of zen is this unbelievable tradition of aforism, koan, that must to be secret, showed only for those who really are ready!
skyjuke2006 2 years ago
Waste of time.Buddhism is so fatalistic. After a while in buddhism you begin to think what is the point of anything.Which could on one hand be comforting,but it just left me feeling very empty. So much of it is utter non-sense. Just as crazy as any other religeon.
killerwocz 3 years ago
Your commentary shows clearly you are confused. Buddha emphatically denied nihilism. You need first to find a proper dharma teacher and ask him before taking confused conclusions like that.
joaodestri 3 years ago
These things are nice, but they aren't as important as many monks and practioners beleive.
Richardtheincredible 3 years ago
i figured out buddhist are dead people walking. i turned to my wiccan roots. the desire to live was leaving me in buddhism. That desire is life. not death in a void of nothing. There is a god and there is a Goddess and that spirit is in me. im alive. but if you do zen and be buddhist thats ok too. ;]
Unityspirit49 3 years ago
i would suggest that you have not understood the basic principles of Buddhism, what to speak of way of Zen.
you may still want to remain a sleep enjoying your dreams of gods and goddesses and create belief systems that justify your desire addictions. if you want to face reality and the honest experience of true being, then zen is the gate-less gate.
joseph60611 3 years ago 4
Buddha Nature is inside us too!
Olebruc 3 years ago
Unity, that is quite unzen...your body only screams pain because you believe that it needs to not feel pain. focus on the one that is everything, the soup of our perceptions, and mold it into that of absolute non-negative creation within your own self. Then you realize pain is just like the sun, and waken to the new identity of your self at each moment in being
tj1039 3 years ago
Woah!
Buji-Zen.
Nihm420 3 years ago
Even enlightened beings feel physical pain. Setting oneself on fire (like the famous Buddhist monk of the Vietnam protest) is not pleasant. Do not deny pain. When in pain, be fully in pain. Do not think of escaping pain. Do not imagine the moment of no-pain. Go deep into pain. Breathing in, breathe in pain. Breathing out, breathe out pain. Be completely present to the reality of your experience in the moment. No wandering thoughts about other moments and what could be. There is no "could be".
lsfein 3 years ago
Isn't it natural to avoid pain and seek pleasure? Can we be fully human, or even living beings, if we accept pain and don't attempt to change our painful circumstances? Isn't the central idea of Buddhism that existence entails suffering and that we can escape from that pain through Buddhist practice? With zazen we attempt to still the monkey-mind that lures us into unhappy circumstnces. With a quiet consciousness like a still pond on a windless day, our minds reflect the world. Or not . . .
luv2bud 3 years ago
how much pain do you feel? DO you eat anything you like and actually taste it? I dont .. do you see well . i dont.. do you wiegh your right weight ..i dont. only thing is i feel pain at least i know im alive.
Unityspirit49 3 years ago
When the body screams, you laugh.
IotaCarinae 3 years ago
I like that comment.
Unityspirit49 3 years ago
this is a tough thing to do when your overweight and have arthritis. My right foot was cracked once and ever since then hardly can walk on it let alone put it under my leg. I know excuses excuses. So how do you sit quiet when your body screams pain.
Unityspirit49 3 years ago
If ya cannot sit in any of the postures without intense pain, then don't.
There is nothing wrong at all with sitting in a chair to practice zazen.
Nihm420 3 years ago 5
Remember this method is only for people who WANT to meditate using THIS method. There are many methodsand one must use one that suitable for your emotional and physical needs. No, you DONT have to sit in this position (very few adults can). As a Buddhist and Meditation Teacher i encourage my pupils to sit on cushions,on a bench or simply on a hard backed chair. If the body is relaxed and at ease, the mind relaxes and focuses. Peace to all.
LeafBoy1 3 years ago 7
Thanks! As a new Buddhist, I've hd a hard time with some of the meditation postures because I have implants in my ankle, and that makes it hard sometimes for me. Thanks again.
clr2sea 3 years ago
You're very welcome. And may I wish you every happiness in your Buddhist efforts. Love and joy to you.
LeafBoy1 3 years ago
you should look into seiza posture if you cannot achieve a comfortable position with these 2
bickybocky 3 years ago 2
Funny... I was just thinking "what about seiza?" - Gassho :)<
JishinShugyosha 3 years ago
it doesn't matter what you do with the body. what is important is what's done with the mind.
empyblessing 3 years ago
thank you, this was very helpful, especially now that i now know of the half lotus,
boredomkill5 3 years ago
The realization that there is no separation between all things animate and inanimate, self and other, large and small, is enlightenment. So is knowing there is only now and not a past or future. You do not choose to realize these things, there is no choice to be made at all. You either come to understand or don't, either one is Zen. Zazen might quiet the mind enough for realization to occur.
milk7man 3 years ago 3
Try Counting the thoughts :)
until the vanish
rgersh5 3 years ago
The wandering of the mind does not came from the breath, why concentrates on the breath(your breath have nothing to do with the things that going on in your mind)? Go straight to your mind and concentrate in your mind, turning many things to one thing and from one thing to nothing. When there is nothing then your original mind will show up.
xiang22 3 years ago
there is a physical link between tension in the stomach and the slowing of thought, strong words from someone who meditates. The counting of the breath is also a beginners exercise, once mastered one typically moves on to shikantaza or "just sitting".
chumfilter 3 years ago
lmao- youre an obvious student of zazen.
mudblind 3 years ago
Thank you for posting this.
heptadecagon 3 years ago
I can recommend using a meditation bench. You sit in seiza instead. It is also wery usefull! I have knee problems, thats why I cannot sit in lotus position. The most importion thing is to sit in balance, with straigt back, chin in and breathing correct, using the hara - ocean of energy!
And remember to train step by step with patient. To meditate should be an enjoying thing, not a boring thing!
IsshoBenkyo 3 years ago
Proper practice unlocks the door.
larryndiour 4 years ago
great video but i tried that and its PAINFULL!!!!!!
ShinigamiGirl1021 4 years ago
Stretching helps.
elsairon 3 years ago
thanks, ill try that^w^
ShinigamiGirl1021 3 years ago
very useful video!
5amuray 4 years ago
These postures are not practical for todays modern man. Most westerners I know cannot even sit with their legs crossed long enough to eat dinner in a Korean restaurant! how can you expect them to meditate peacefully when fighting against their own body? I know the body can adjust but can it adjust before a man loses interest in the pursuit of nothing?
kiwi73 4 years ago
I know, I had that problem when I first began to practice zazen. It's a good example of the middle way though. One dosen't need to subjugate the body or ignore it. Realize it's there, accept it for what it is so that you might continue your practice beyond that.
22weeks 4 years ago
you're right lol. I can do full lotus for about 30 min it's quite not comfortable but it's good for "stretching" i guess.
Rocky1990 4 years ago
It all depends how much you want it.
Nobody ever said zazen was easy, it has been compared to
fighting and battle by more than one Roshi.
I think the illution of it being easy is something born in the west through getting it mixed up with 'new age'.
'Zazen is not something that should be taken up half-heartedly'.
If you are interested read 'The Three Pillars of Zen' by
Kapleau.
Good Luck.
Peekingduck 4 years ago 2
This is what I hate of western society, we want things to change to suit our needs but we are unwilling to change ourselves for another thing. What makes us think we are so superior as to force change on others?
if you are too lazy to adjust to a posture, than you should just quit.
mjfan123085 3 years ago
so basically anyone who as had a hip replacement is lazy and therefore cannot do zazen? what about people with one leg? are you sure that in order to meditate/zazen that you HAVE TO attain this position?
kiwi73 3 years ago
mjfan, what's wrong with doing something to
suit your own needs. Different strokes for
different folks.
Your attempting to meditate, the only right
way, is the one that works. I'm not dismissing
the video, there are reasons why they encourage this form, but having said that,
if the method gets in the way of the 'goal'
then you change the method.
fntime 3 years ago
Everyone's a zen master these days, lol.
guynamedtroy 4 years ago 2
So called 'enlightenment' means: truth realization. Do you think Truth cares how you sit? Do you think a human without arms or legs wouldn't be able to 'get elightened'? Duh. Truth realization is not about effort. You are already That. Find out what you are. That is liberaton.
imeddy 4 years ago
The position in zazen, as in other methods of meditation, is an aid. Can a person with no arms and legs eat? Of course. But for those WITH arms and legs, eating becomes much easier once you know how to use a fork and spoon. In other words, for those who are able to follow correct posture and practice, this will be benificial for them. For those who cannot for whatever reason (older, etc) modifications are obviously acceptable.
divinemercyguy 4 years ago
The buddha himself became enlightened by himself and by his own efforts. Think about it, he didnt have any buddhist books to go read haha... However we nozw have many resources at our disposal that can help us on the path wit much more ease. What has been proven to work for others for literally thousands of years is something to at least try for yourself.
divinemercyguy 4 years ago
Well,no person becomes enlightened. That's not how it works. What is realized (by direct experience, not by reasoning or thinking about it) is that 'that which is awake' is being you. Not the other way around. No identity, no doer, no 'owner' of experience. In a way: no I. May sound strange but it can't bt put in words anyway. I'm not saying meditation isn't usefull, only that posture really makes no difference.
imeddy 4 years ago
Posture makes no spiritual difference, this is true. However it makes a practical difference. For instance, few people can meditate while laying down because they fall asleep. So this position is not benificial for meditation. The proscribed postures have been found to be the most condusive to meditation, and are helpful for most, if not all, people.
divinemercyguy 4 years ago 3
The Buddha did 'become enlighted'. Perhaps you seek to point out that it is just a realization of what has always been, as opposed to a new object being introduced?
This is true, but the moment whn the Buddha experienced this realization is refered to as his enlightenment, ie when h became enlightened. Obviously language cannot properly express this, but that is the standard usage.
divinemercyguy 4 years ago
Yes, That is what I mean. Thank you!
imeddy 4 years ago
Haha, sweetness!
peace and love,
ryan
divinemercyguy 4 years ago
The Buddha studied for many years with many teachers before he became enlightened. He reached enlightenment himself, as most meditators are striving to do, but he didn't just become enlightened without some previous help.
Irjip 4 years ago
It's a valid point, yes. However the validity of the teachings you are refering to is rather shakey to say the least. While he did indeed study under many different teachers in many different philosophies, the point is that he came to reject these teachings.
divinemercyguy 4 years ago