Morality -- Part Two

[stevehayes13]

When theists say there is no reason why people would not be moral without god, I think they must be talking about themselves, only. For this extrinsic view is essentially immoral. I would avoid immoral actions in order to protect myself, for if I behave immorally I harm my self.

[owchywawa]

The problem I'm having thus far is that you are judging divine command theory with other theories of morality. If divine command theory is correct (I think not), then slavery is morally acceptable and thus there can be no objections on moral grounds.

[Coquipirate]

this takes some scriptures out of context. There are many more philosophies out there than christianity and atheism btw

[ProfMTH]

"this takes some scriptures out of context"

For example?

"There are many more philosophies out there than christianity and atheism btw"

I know.

[Coquipirate]

@ProfMTH What most readily comes to mind is the Ezekiel scripture. The "statues that were not good" were no so because they were immoral, but because mankind, at least at the time, would not or could not follow them unto perfection. I just felt like I should mention that there are other religions because you spent so much time attacking the one. Obviously the bible debate could carry on forever, but the cocepts of morality mentioned aren't held by all theistic religions.

[ProfMTH]

@Coquipirate writes, "What most readily comes to mind is the Ezekiel scripture. The 'statues that were not good' were no so because they were immoral, but because mankind, at least at the time, would not or could not follow them unto perfection."

Ah, by 'context' you mean the passage doesn't say what you'd like it to say. I get it now.

[Coquipirate]

@ProfMTH The hell if I care what the christian bible says, but the explaination you gave is clearly not the intended meaning. I thought the issue was morality.

[ProfMTH]

"the explanation you gave is clearly not the intended meaning"

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[danielyeh]

@Coquipirate

if a law is "not good" because the people can't follow them perfectly, then every single law he has decreed is "not good". your God is an idiot.

[Coquipirate]

@danielyeh My God? I'm no jew/christian, that just wasn't the intended meaning.

[lower3rdproductions]

I'm aware that many of you see contradictions in the Bible. I agree that at face value the words themselves are contradictory. We as Christians have done a poor job of being the example of Christ as we try and spout off information and convert everyone. What's very interesting to me is how so many from other beliefs continue to try and prove the Bible wrong. We're having "Tolerance" shoved down our throats, but everyone else is taking their shots at us. Sounds like contradiction to me!

[15131541984651]

@lower3rdproductions Try to prove the bible wrong? Man is that the biggest understatement of the 21st century. Forget athesism etc as that will get us no where.

Again and again, 'reproducable' scientific evidence has proved the bible wrong; just how feasible was it to make an arc that could carry two of each species of fauna on the planet that exist today as they apparently never evoled (plus the extinct ones); not to mention materials for construction and labour.

I guess god helped them out?

[Reproductivist]

Yes, using diving punishment and reward is the same as hedonism, just with delusional views of what causes those emotions. And both views  are bullshit since the ability to feel the emotions and what triggers what emotion exist because it benefited reproduction; therefore it is your own doom to act with anything but reproduction as an arbiter for the value of actions.

[cyxgun]

Another fascinating video! It would seem to me that atheist as well as theist should be devouring your videos, they have so much info you don't commonly hear from any other source.

[ligable]

Basically the people of whom wrote the Bible are idiots, and writing up some crazy-ass story. They should have all sat together before becoming fictional authors - to get their stories straight.

[GodLessRant]

ProfMTH, this is a great video that shows just how disgusting and horrible the bible and the xian faith is. i am so sick of hearing about how jesus was so loving and how "god showed his love in the NT". this slaughter is "love"? xians follow a fraudulent, evil and immoral religion, yes RELIGION, not a "faith"

[Eiketsu3000]

The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is really not as general as the King James version would indicate. The commandment actually refers to premeditated, unjustified killing - murder. Although God ordered the extermination of entire cities, He did so in righteous judgment on a people whose corruption had led to extreme wickedness, including child sacrifice. Did God destroy the righteous along with the wicked? In an exchange with Abraham,

[Eiketsu3000]

God indicated that He would spare the wicked to save the righteous. He demonstrated this principle by saving righteous people from Sodom and Jericho prior to their destruction. The charge that God indiscriminately murdered people does not hold to to critical evaluation of the biblical texts.

[ProfMTH]

First, I didn't use the King James Version in this video. Moreover, I almost never use the King James Version. As a general rule, I use the New American Standard and Everett Fox's translation of the Torah entitled "The Five Books of Moses."  So it's a mystery to me why you're bringing up the KJV in response to my video.

[ProfMTH]

Second, in the context of this video, the salient point in the Genesis 18 dialogue between Abraham and God is Abraham's argument that God's proposal to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah -- that is, to sweep away the guilty with the innocent -- was unjust. The same is true of Moses's dialogue with God about another of God's destruction proposals in Exodus 32.

[ProfMTH]

These stories illustrate that even the Bible doesn't have God always and everywhere proposing to do what is good, what is just. E.g., Abraham is very specific in telling God that God's original proposal *was* indiscriminate and, as such, unjust. This sort of stuff substantially undermines much of Divine Command Theory's underpinning -- at least its biblical underpinning.

[CapeandCowl]

are you seriously suggesting that the extermination of a city, including children is "righteous?"

[ProfMTH]

I take it, CapeandCowl, that your question is addressed to one of the believers who defended one of the divine acts of destruction (or threatened destruction) described in the Bible. The vast majority of believers whom I have encountered express beliefs that boil down to the proposition that God may do *anything*. It's usually attached to a claim about his being omnipotent, so it's "might makes right." Wild, eh?

[CapeandCowl]

it is. I am about to engage the Youtuber Yokeup on this very question.

I was addressing Eiketsu3000 on very grounds you note which boils down to "thou shalt not kill..well unless god says its ok"

[GodLessRant]

yokeup supports the present war in iraq wholeheartedly so he's right in line with the OT, LOL

[Eiketsu3000]

People tend to assume that children are innocent, even if their parents are doing bad things. The assumption is unfounded. For example, Palestinian Muslim children are officially taught in grammar school to hate their Jewish neighbors. They are so well indoctrinated that some of them give up their lives in suicide bombings as children. Corruption literally does breed corruption, which is why God did not want the Hebrews tainted by the other corrupt cultures of the Middle East.

[CapeandCowl]

Oh so its ok to murder children if their parents have taught them something bad? Well perhaps we ought to go about finding the children of bad people and put them death? What about new born infants? Should we kill them?

Never mind the ONLY crime the people had committed was BEING THERE before the Hebrews got there.

All you are doing is justifying genocide and the murder of children. Nice.

[GodLessRant]

xians respond by saying this was the "old covenant" blah blah blah. then suddenly god turned ok in the NT? they call this morality?

[GodLessRant]

what a stupid and ridiculous answer. this is the justification for the crimes of the OT? christian children are responsible then for the crimes of their parents as well, no?

[GodLessRant]

yes. to xians it is. then they claim their god is a god of mercy. it's such a FRAUD. in samuel 6:19, god wastes over 50,000 people for "looking in his ark". digusting stupid horrible buybull

[CapeandCowl]

And remember, Christians say the god of the OT is the same guy as in the NT. Well, I don't care if he had some dramatic attitude adjustment in the NT (he doesn't and wants to torture non-believers for all time.) His war criminal behavior in the OT cannot be forgotten. Would we have forgotten Hitler's past if after WW2 he became a children's aid worker?

No. There is a reason the gnostics said the god of the OT was a creature to be avoided.

[GodLessRant]

excellent point CandC, you know what i have thought of doing is listing the crimes of "God" in effect to make up a mock trial, if you will. how is it we are supposed to suddenly believe that "God" is so kind after the horrible slaughter of the OT?

[CapeandCowl]

Dude I would be so up for that kind video. God on trail!

[GodLessRant]

i am really thinking of making one! i am SO sick of hearing about the god of mercy and love, when what's depicted is so gruesome, so immoral, that it defies belief. "God" deserves to be put into the "hell" he supposedly created.

[GodLessRant]

example: he kills poor Onan for what? for "spilling his seed on the ground". this is grounds for killing? for not impregnating his dead brother's wife? how is this moral? how is this anything but a cruel crime? and these christians take the moral high ground? shame on them SHAME SHAME

[plk11]

still waiting on part 2

[ProfMTH]

Actually, you're waiting on part 3. The video you commented on is part 2. I'm getting it done as quickly as possible. As time has permitted, I've been trying to cut it down so it all fits in just one more ten-minute video. Alas, the need to make a living, familial obligations, and other real-life things don't always leave one with as much free time as one might like. I'm sure you understand. ;-) It will probably be up this weekend. Thanks.

[plk11]

brilliant!

[TruthBlazerXL]

All my life I asked myself a lot of the questions that you've stated in your videos, but I never really dug very deeply into them because questions were of the "devil" and it was morally wrong to critically question god and his "divine" word. Only within the last 6 months have I finally taken a step outside of the religious box. Better late than never, eh?

[ProfMTH]

Indeed. Are you finding that your asking these questions is libertating?

[TruthBlazerXL]

Liberating is a good way to put it. Scary is another one =) Every now and then my old mindset still tries to creep up on me and tell me that I'm spending eternity in hell. Oh well, I'll get over it eventually....i think....i hope =)

[ProfMTH]

Scary can be the sort of dark side of liberation.  When I was first making the transition, a good friend asked, "Are you finding this liberating or depressing?" I answered, "Both." It *does* get better though.

[TruthBlazerXL]

Indeed I hope it will get better. Thanks. Rome wasn't built in a day so I know that tearing down 29 years of influence is going to be a continuing process. Better to take this on now than 5, 10, 20, or 40 years from now, I suppose.

[TruthBlazerXL]

Great job, ProfMTH. I appreciate the effort that you put into all of your videos. 5 stars.

[caremi2]

The source of immorality lies in nature itself, your needs, your physical existence, your mind and memory -- I am convinced you would kill someone for getting food for you or your family if you would starve and would have no choice. You could also say, we decide to die therefore the stranger shall live. I bet you would prefer to throw some very heavy books at him, when he turns around.

[ProfMTH]

Thanks for your comment. I'm not sure I entirely understand it, but thanks nonetheless.

[hypothetisch]

why does someone exepting slaverymeans they say sometimes slavery is accetable

why don't you adress those that justthink slavery is always morally good?

[ProfMTH]

I'm not certain I understand what you're asking me here. Sorry. I *do* address those who think slavery is always good inasmuch as I say that it is morally outrageous.

[MercifulMing]

Gah! Disappointing - very little new info. Almost 6 minutes recapping part 1!

[ProfMTH]

Actually, only 3 minutes or so recapping part one. Then I expanded my critique of Divine Command Theory on two other points of failure. Sorry you didn't like it, but it seemed important to be thorough with the critique.

[MercifulMing]

Well I was really thought you were going to get to secular moral objectivism in part 2. I thought divine justice, reward, and punishment was starting to get off topic. Sorry!

[ProfMTH]

No problem. Just a reminder, in part one I said I wanted to address three things: 1) Divine Command Theory; 2) theistic notions of moral motivation; 3) and the possibility of moral objectivism without a deity.  I'd hoped to get all done in 2 parts, but it just didn't work out.

[lavoll]

another good video series. thumbs up :)

[ProfMTH]

Thanks very much.

[TruthBlazerXL]

Wow. Thank you for making logical statements and laying things out so understandably in your videos, ProfMTH. It's amazing how many things I didn't see as a christian that I can see clearly now that I'm an ex-christian. 5 stars.

[ProfMTH]

Thank *you*, TruthBlazerXL, for taking the time to comment and for the very nice words. Yes, there is so much one sees only when one steps out of the Christian context to view the Bible and the various theories about God and the rest in an objective fashion.

[CharlieDevilDog]

Fantastic as always professor

[ProfMTH]

Thanks so much. I appreciate your taking the time to comment. By the way, I have only gotten to one of your videos so far, but I intend to watch the rest as soon as I can.

[randyhelzerman]

Insanely great. Man, ProfMTH, this is gunna sound like a pretty stupid thing to say to somebody with your background, but, man, you can really put together a case....

[ProfMTH]

Well, thanks a whole bunch, Randy. I appreciate the very positive review. By the way, let me assure you, there are more than a few people with my background who couldn't put a case together if their lives depended on it. Nature has a way of spreading the dumb around. ;-)

[GodofAbrahamIsaacJac]

I approve, not that it means anything.

And the third part you're going to put up isn't bad.

[ProfMTH]

Thanks very much.

[StudentDan]

My comment made famous by ProfMTH at around the 8 minute mark.lol! Anyway I do believe that probably the best reason to act moral is for the sake of character and virtue itself. I need to study, and think about this more because I don't have the clearest understanding of the issue that I could have. Interested to see the next video though.

[ProfMTH]

Yes, it was your comment. I hope you don't mind my using it to illustrate the view. I'm glad to see that you've opted for a different "best reason" to behave morally. Always good to hear from you, StudentDan.

[StudentDan]

I don't mind at all.

[phenixwryter]

LoLed at God's banana peel of revenge.

Enjoyed your video and looking forward to Part 3.

[ProfMTH]

That and the angel throwing the guy into the fire were my two favorites in that video. lol

[whistlinphil]

Great video, Prof. I am looking forward to Part 3.

(I am uploading video responses...)

[loveisallneed]

Great video!  Looking forward to number 3. You planned it this way, you tease!

[ProfMTH]

LOL! Actually, I didn't. I truly did aim at getting it all into two parts. Well, the best laid plans and all that, eh? In any case, thanks for your nice words and taking the time to comment.

[Sweetkittenpie]

Keep the excellent work coming.

[ProfMTH]

Thanks very much.

[WeiSein]

Part 3, 4 and 5 ole!!!

[ProfMTH]

No, I mean to get this done in 3 parts. I'm chopping down the recording to fit it into one more ten-minute video. Damn you, YouTube! ;-)

[ubernerd35]

great videos as always.

[ProfMTH]

Thanks very much, Ubernerd.

[iconoclastic23]

I never could understand how God handing out decrees means morality is objective. If there were an extant deity, wouldn't that god's moral decree just be its own subjective moral preferences? If there is such a thing as objective morality, it seems to me that it must exist independent of what any deities might think of it.

[ProfMTH]

Yes, that's what I'm getting at when, for example, I talk about Divine Command Theory being arbitrary. If morality comes down to nothing more than Deus dixit, then it isn't much more than a compilation of subjective preferences -- albeit the deity's subjective preferences.

[loveisallneed]

I guess God could weave it into the fabric of the universe, much like the physical laws. But that would not explain the differences in the bible.

[guitarfan67]

Doh...now i want to see part 3, lol.

[ProfMTH]

This 10-minute limit is killing me on this subject. lol Part 3 is on the way.

[robtul12]

I've seen TheAmazingAtheist do videos longer than ten minutes and they are not taken down. His most recent one is almost sixteen minutes. Not that I am encouraging you to break the rules... Robert

[ProfMTH]

I believe he's been on YouTube way longer than I have, probably joining before the 10-minute limit was imposed. My understanding is that YouTube grandfathered out members who had joined before the limit came about. I definitely came after the limit was imposed and, therefore, couldn't break the rule even if I wanted to. I'll just have to be more efficient in my presentation on this topic.

:-)

[ProfMTH]

By the way, Robert, I appreciate your *not* encouraging me to break the rules with a video on morality. lol

[mdcaigoy]

I thought director accounts could post longer videos. Great videos, in any case.

[ProfMTH]

Thanks very much, Mdcaigoy. I believe you're right about the director accounts, but only the ones that were created before the imposition of the 10-minute limit.

[loveisallneed]

More than 10 minutes for most people tend to linger and banter about. Your videos are put together very well and very content dense. No wasted time.

[ProfMTH]

Thanks. Yeah, I suspect I might wander a bit if I had more time. When I teach my course in argumentation, I always tell the students that the time limit is their friend. Even on a complex topic like this, that is true.