An Anglo-American commission of inquiry in 1945 and 1946 examined the status of Palestine. Jews had purchased 6 to 8 percent of the total land area of Palestine. This was about 20% of the land that could be settled and cultivated. About 46% of the land was registered in the tax registers to Arab villages, to Arabs living on the land, or absentee owners, and about the same amount was government land. However, most of this land was not privately owned.
The Arabs of Palestine had received much of their land in leases conditional upon cultivation or used land that was part of village commons. The partition borders were drawn to give the Jews a majority within the allotted area of the Jewish state.
Of course this doesn't make the partition "fair" but one should not take for granted that the Arabs of Palestined OWNED the other 92-94% of the land.
It would also be interesting to know what kind of compensation (if any) was offered to Arabs.
My "view" was taking into consideration ALL of the land divisions that took place after WWI, not just the Middle East. It was that, compared to all other conquered territories, the Arabs fared pretty well even though the land that was eventually partitioned in 1947 contained a Jewish minority (30%) that got about 50% of that land. Not equally "fair" to all sides but not that much different than what the British did in India: splitting it into India and Pakistan in 1947.
Not to "split hairs" but, according to what I have read, the area of what is now called Jordan WAS part of the original Palestine Mandate given to the British at the San Remo conference in 1920. In 1922 the mandated land was split up and the area east of the Jordan river was designated as Transjordan. The map also shows what looks to be probably the Golan Heights as being given to Syria in 1923. :-)
The Israel/Palestine issue is just one example of the Allies dividing & re-distributing conquered lands after WWI. New countries were formed and not always along lines of ethnic majorities. Look at Czechoslovakia & Yugoslavia. These 2 areas were later divided during WWII & there was quite a bit of animosity between enthic groups, particularily in Yugoslavia. While Czechoslovakia split into two states peacefully after the collapse of the Soviet Union, look at what happened to Yugoslavia.
When looked at from this view, the Arabs got more than their fair share of the land. While the Arabs were promised MOST of the land and not ALL of it, the Allies should have been more considerate of the religious claims to Jerusalem and declared that an "international city" from the start.
As it was, the small percentage of land allocated to the Jews from ALL of the conquered Ottoman territories seems quite reasonable when compared to Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.
Yes...they were original occupants even before the Ottomans. they always said they were to go back...but that is the bible.
With regard to land and percentages...Israel has 5%, about of the 100 that was doled out...after the end of the Ottoman empire. Ask Jordan and Syria and the other countries to give their land back...you are speaking foolishness. If the Muslims wanted peace they could have accepted the 5% given to Israel ...
they wouldn't didn't and will never. They chose WAR.
What occurs under the peace process...is the launching of rockets from the returned Gaza.
See, Yirmeyahu..both sides have a position. You just see one..yours and the Pals. My favorite Pal position is open the gates and will will stop launching rockets long enough for us to fill our larders, ammo depots, send in a few bombers get some more rockets, etc. Then the war will start again. I really can not have this discussion with you...your inability to see that the Jews are small and isolated.
90% of the Ottoman Empire was given to the Muslim Arabs...the remaining 10% divided between Jews and Muslims. Don't forget the 90%. Convenient thinking.
Now when you read the Jerusalem and Haaretz and the people's responses, I am sure you notice that they don't all love Iran, etc. But when you read Al Jazeera do you ever notice that the questions asked are what should the US do or Israel do about their President, or about some other internal situation and everybody has an answer on how to run this country. Even those from Pakistan, India, Afghanistan while news of from these countries tell of internal strife, Muslim VS Muslim, often starving.
Muslims do not compromise...it is seemingly against their religion. They are allowed to tell tales to make their point. Yirmeny may be a nice person but doesn't have a clue about the history as he has limited access to the stories as do many who don't realize how much Muslim readings are revisionist. Some don't even mention the association with Hitler. Some don't mention how Jordan became such a large country, etc. Gazaans have chosen not to assimilate into the lands and have chosen war.
but don't you think that the Jews living in the land were a bit intimdated by the Nazis in full dress who were walking around the territory and visiting the Jewish holy sites etc. Especially at the guest of the Muslims that you claim lived peacefully with their neighbors? How friendly was that?
Jews always lived in the land...always, well before the Christians and the Muslims. Again you are saying Arabs or Pals. I am a Arab and I left my home because the Muslims made our lives miserable jealous of our business near the church in Bethlehem where we sold Christian memoribilia. It was the British that divided the land...they won the land from the Ottoman Empire after WWI and gave 90% to the Muslim countries, the last 10% was divided between Pals and Jews. Giving Jews the arid land.
Yes, this is easy to confirm: the original Palestine Mandate included what is now Jordan. From the maps I've seen it might not quite be 90& of the original mandate but easily 2/3 or 3/4 of it. Of the remaining land, the Jews had by 1946 already legally purchased about 6 to 8%. I think the main issue the Arabs had was that they didn't want to share the GOVERNING of Palestine with the Jews. They didn't want increased Jewish immigration which could result in a Jewish Majority.
I think the whole issue boiled down to failure of the Arabs to compromise. It's easy to look back and say "if only the Arabs had accepted the 1947 partition..." but I suspect that there was more going on behind the scenes than that.
Egypt and Syria in particular had plans of their own for Palestine. Lebanon and Jordan and Iraq also provided troops that would eventually attack the Jews. They each had their own agendas and were not willing to coordinate their armies. They lost.
I don't know all of the current issues that are involved in preventing a peaceful settlement but we all know that Israel has been able to make peace with other countries that wanted peace. Can it be that the extremists (on both sides) don't WANT peace because it would involve giving up too much?
These are rhetorical questions meant to invite comment from anyone, not just rezasantorini and Yirmeyahu001. :-)
There aren't many Jewish extremists except those that don't believe Israel should exist. Few don't want peace, even though they don't like Muslims. Israelis want peace, without suicide bombers and rocket launchers. They'd not mind sharing the water etc. Just not the terror. They'd like the Muslims to stop saying we will give you peace but we can't account for those Muslims that want to kill you..be they PLO, Hamas or whatsoever. That is how it has been.
You show no understanding of the need for the Jews to have a bit of land for a safety net especially after the Holocaust. You only see what is happening to the poor Gazaans not what they did to themselves..that led to what is happening. You don't give them credit for what they do give the Gazaans. You don't give them credit for allowing them citizenship, nor a vote in the Knesset, or even for allowing them to vote in the Gaza elections. You blindly support the anti Israelis.
I have sent you numerous links to readings that tell a different story about the Mufti and then numerous one to history about the land of the Ottomans and how it was divided. You keep on ignoring this. Are you in an area that blocks and censors your utube...wherein you can't get the material. You insist you won't discuss these areas with me, and I wonder why. You do not seem to be unintelligent but call these particular points lies or revisionists. I am wondering, if this is the problem?
My goodness...I lived what I lived and saw what I saw. If you do not have the heart nor compassion to understand the hell that the Jewish people experienced or the effect of the Hitler visits to the Palestinian territory you are sadly missing a part of that heart and compassion.
Yes, many may have believed this. Now let me ask you about you. Why are you living here? You really seem to hate this country? You have no faith in it or its future. I am a naturalized citizen and I just love it here. So proud to have my children have this open education.
read my post giving you facts on the Mufti. Call it what you want. They had a deal. With regard to calling me a liar,,,you have, and I really don't care. It is your way. With regard to Palestinians the Gazans are Palestinians, it is just that saying the Palestinians without calling attentions to which when referencing all, you intone the whole population, not just the Muslims which makes some people think the whole Ottoman territory was Muslim, it wasn't. It is part of the numbers game.
Yrimeyahu...I lived in the area, I saw the welcome he received, even as a little girl I saw the terror he brought to the eyes of the Christians and Jews...I also saw the Muslims greetings as if he was going to make the Ottoman empire theirs. I don't care what you are reading it is revisionists writings, I lived it...
I didn't see his welcome literally but I did see the respect he received and the hope he brought to the Muslims...they thought he would give them the whole Ottoman Empire...Jewless and with Islam in charge...just as Europe would have no Jews, they wouldn't either. They'd not have to divide the land as per Balfour or any mandate. They never wanted that ... never.
Yep, many of us believed there were WMD. Saddams refusal to let the UN inspect helped this. I never believed he was the source of 9/11 ...never and never did I hear any of my friends say they did.
They did think bin Laden and AlQaeda.
We did think Saddam was a brutal dictator and that he was invading Iran...sorry he didn'tand was torturing his people, he was. We thought his sons were evil as evil could be. They were. WMD, we thought our government knew. We were wrong.
You don't understand because you don't know what it means to see beyond your own point in time, in space in history. It is only YOUR view, point in time and moment of validity that counts. Thus there isn't a broad spectrum..here is a dead body, thus it must be the Jews fault, is your thinking/
You repeatedly call the poor isolated people in Gaza the Palestinians...when in fact they are Muslims who chose to be isolated and poor when they voted in Hamas, democratically, to live a life that supported a terrorist group..determined to wipe out another.
You called me names but do not insult... \I've heard denial before. Hitler \the Mufti existed met and planned, they didn't sign your "alliance" paper, but they "did the dirty xdeed" started to execute it. Muslim brotherhood as a group is to me Muslims who will stick together against Jews and others
...inspite of country and tribal lines. Iran fighting in Iraq, Syria in Lebanon the threats of bin Laden and Iran.
What was done to the COLE. London Spain. cheered by all of ISLAM. Hate US
No one I know, here in the US or in Israel, or in Italy think Iraqis pulled of the attacks against the US...unless a few were involved, by chance. We believe it was Muslims...a group most likely run by Bin Laden...a spin off group from many places...part of Islam.
I associate the people of Iraq, those who worked with Saddam with terrorism. I do not associate
all Palestinians with Hitler, just those that welcomed him and his into their hearts. I throw in Bin Laden because he is a hero for some...it is not psychological it is association by acceptance of his behavious. No one is turning him in. Yet he speakes to them in a manny one speaks as a leader.
I say this over and over again because you seem to forget the whole territory belonged to Palestinians of all religion and ethnicity ...and all were moved around and all were frightened. Many displaced, not just those of Islam. Jewish Pals were taken care of by their own people not left in tents, Jews from other countries came and were included in Israel, not ignored, they assimilated. Thus they are now a country...What is the W.Bank but Muslims
Sure Israel pulled out to be the bad guys, and to make sure Gillat was kidnapped, to have Gazaans bomb the internal holy places and start launching rockets. Yep, they were just bad Jews again.
Dork..they pulled out and they the stuff started happening ... instead of celebrating and getting to work on their country they starting beating their macho chests. We won we won. Now give us more.
Calling me a liar is one of your names...I don't know what each Muslim group is call I reference the group of Muslims who call themselves Muslims and believers in Islam, Muslims, regardless of what tribe or name. That means Gaza part of the Muslim brotherhood and so is Iran and bin Laden
I'm an Arab, I wasn't expelled. Muslims who were willing to fight the Jews were. And they were in the area. Muslims all over Islamic countries kicked out Jews, not just the Middle East.
Well, I don't think anyone expects that Israel will give ALL the land back. That's a bit like the US saying to the Native American Indians "sorry 'bout that, here's all your land back". :-)
I have answered your questions time and time again. You just don't accept my answers. You call me names. Call it an alliance, call it what you want...the Muslims and Hitler slept together, I gave you links and there are links on line. You refuse to accept them because they never I am a Muslim and I loved Hitler. Meanwhile the links are available. I will not
respond to this anymore. I have revealed my experience, that is all I can do. You call me names I call you fool.
Growing up in Bethlehem, I was a Palestinian...my parents read the Palestinian Post and my friends regardless of their religion were Palestinians. As we speak your posts become increasingly narrow and indicative of your background that sees the world through a slit..rather than a broad perspective.
Lie, Lie, Lie, when you say Palestinians and reference that period of time you include me, my family and all the people of the Ottoman Empire who were not then part reassigned to other Muslim countries land, including the very increased area called Jordan. I was one of them and resent being called a Palestinian, for it intones Muslim to the world. They chose the word for purposes of propaganda. At once time I felt pride in the word but when it was used against the Jews it ceased to be.
You call it a lie, I call it realistic. But, you see the Muslim Palestinians as nearly innocent and just victims in this and I don't.
I see them as people who don't want Israel or Jews in the area, they want control of all the remaining Ottoman Empire and feel much like the Koran should should have the legal right of being the law. Alas, we disagree. BTW, have you lived in the area?
It was never hey Gaza was alone, Muslims are each separate and they won't interfere. hahah.
Sure...just like Iran and Syria aren't interfering now...just like bin Laden isn't Muslim and just like Fatah can't control Hamas and the other way around, and no one can take responsibility for the various splinter groups, ever. Wasn't Hezbollah suppose to leave Lebanonon? Who created the tension and kidnapped the soldier that started the Lebanese War against Israel?
Wrong, it wasn't the Palestinian people, it was the Muslims. I am a Palestinian, but a Christian. There were Christian and Jewish Palestinians. Why do some people not get the fact that the area, the old Ottoman Empire was not all Muslim. Why do the Muslims refuse to accept responsibility for the Mufti, the British eventually were victims of Hitler...that sure wasn't in the name of the Brits.
Use whatever word you choose. The Mufti and his followers were supporters of Hitler. Go look up the history and hear what was said of this Mufti guy during the Nurenburg trials and the trial
of Eichman, years later. I will not call you a liar, just a typical Muslim who gets on a point and thinks saying it over and over makes it so. Yes, Jews are bad, Islam is the religion of PEACE...everything is the fault of Jews and the US. Read it on Al Jazeera views.
No..if the US would stop support for Israel, it would stop support for all allies. It would mean Muslims everywhere, not only the mid east would invade, as they did before as they do anywhere they can and are doing everywhere leaving their countries and moving in and demanding laws be changed. How terrible that 9/11 happened but even more terrible that he threatens again and Islam shuts up..how terrible that Jews aren't safe in Muslim lands. But they scream about bias towards them.
Jewish people have had a terrible time andare determined to exist. Even now some say they didn't fight hard enough in Germany, that they use gentile blood in matza ( still taught in some Muslim countries) that they control this and that, all garbage. They would be invaded and wiped out by Islam if not for the West. But most of all Israel cares for their own and it is why they built a country with shelters and hospitals...and if they weren't attacked, they would have helped Gaza and all Pals.
Muslims in general, which included the so called Palestinian Muslims, not me and my Christian Palestinians, did embrace him and the Nazi's that came. Please do not treat this lightly for it scared the heck out of us who embrassed our Jewish neighbors..and it didn't scare Muslims. They as a whole did not care what happened to the Jews, then or now. Or even before the Nazi's. Islam wants religious dominance everywhere...
are innocent and not backed by all of Islam and haven't been all along...they just happen to be
a tool of the rich oil laden ones. They are the
pimple that all are willing to sacrifice instead of allowing to heal. Nothing Israel has done compares to what has been done to Jews, the US, London, Spain, etc. You see no
corollary because you choose to pretend Pals are isolated and what has happened to Jews all over the world is the same.
Everywhere and even in the UN Muslim nations tie themselves to Pals...they vote in such a way to make it appear as if Pals treachery doesn't count but only Israel does bad things. No one
commented about the attack on the school of teens, on the rocket launchings on the years Jews couldn't pray at the Western Wall at the destruction of Jewish cemetaries, etc. I could go on and on...it is the mentality of the Islamics to say, "who me.? No, Arafat didn't speak with forked tongue?
They are Muslim people from the area of the middle east and reflect the feelings of the people...you think you can pretend that there is a difference. Arafat was his nephew and took leadership of the Pals. Egypt was one of the countries that attacked Israel at the begining. There is a Muslim brotherhood...they claim it all the time. Please...the world is not dumb...
Israel is alone with no one but the US. What happened here with the twin towers was horrendous and that was illegal. What happened in Spain and LOndan and elsewhere. What Bin Ladin threatens is horrendous. Yet you have the nerve to act as if Pals are alone... You are not worth a discussion. I and speaking of oppression, Muslims did and do all they can write because I hope others see you for what you are. A MUSLIM who sees only a Muslim as worthy.
Yes, Pals always begin with after this and this happens like the return of all lands, return of all prisoners and we get what we want we will consider negotiating nor more attacks. We will not discuss our past transgression or what led to them, only your bad.
I think both sides are reluctant to admit their faults. That is human nature, after all. But both sides MUST do this to make an honest attempt at a mutually agreeable settlement. Someone is going to have to be the "better person" and be the first to admit their mistakes and ask the other side for forgiveness, which must happen before honest reconciliation can take place.
I've answered every question but you insist on ignoring the answers, calling me a liar, etc.
I can understand you not enjoying my putting all of Islam together and not wanting me to think that Pals are an isolated group, who are being picked on...but I don't. I see them as a group of Muslims being used by all of Islam to allow people such as the leader of Iran, bin Laden, whoever to shout out against Israel, "my poor brothers." You won't accept that they are just that...together and domineers.
Why didn't Gazaans sit down and talk after the return of Gaza...why did they start with demands and bombs? Why have they had such internal fighting and did they kick out Fatah? They wanted less fighting and more peace? Pals have had a tendency to make demands, without negotiations and not be able to say all our people..we can't account for those.
Meaning Hamas, Hezbolla or some splinter group. How can one negotiate with that? Israel at least tries.
They are victims of electing Hamas whose platform including not making peace with Israel, and destroying them, they are victims of considering the return of Gaza a "win" so that they starting launching rockets instead of building a country, they chose to destroy holy Jewish buildings, and even the crops left for them instead of building from that moment on...then complained that Israel didn't do enough for them.
They weren't punished...they were asked to accept the mandate or the declaration. The Ottoman Empire was broken up..they chose to fight and to kill and to think they could get it all and to ignore a few facts. They also thought they'd get rid of the Jews when Hitler won.
It was Jordan with the backing of the neighbors that didn't allow Jews to pray at their sites
from 47 - 67. They did that, and they destroyed Jewish sites in E.Jerusalem and elsewhere. I even saw them doing it. Even saw some urinating on the Wall...call me a liar again, it does not hurt.
Yirmeyahu001..you speak like a Muslim, and one who was educated by the extremist who does not accept that Muslims had any part in the terror that has happened in the Palestinian territory nor what is NOW Israel, nor what was once where Jews and Christians lived nor whatever you cared to call it. You also speak as if you see through a lens with one teeny hole. As someone who sees through a lens of experience,
and it one that sees more than Muslims, but the right of all, you sicken me.
Netua Karta has their reason, JAC and Jews not Zionists just prove that Jews do not have a all is one mentality and don't think as one...which is pretty much why Judaism and Israelis are not is not a cult. It is why most of the propaganda sprout is why I support them...Jews have individual minds.
I guess you think meeting with him, visiting with him, etc. is not an alliance. Even being friends means nothing. Oh, please forget this discussion. We cannot talk, name calling and calling me a liar does nothing to your logic. I believe you only read propagada written by Muslim allowed press for if you go to the open internet you will see more. I find you and yours the reason for hatred in the world. I call them Farfur believers.
I am sorry for the spelling of your name. If you do not think the Mufti supported Hitler, you are wrong. It is like saying he and his nephew Arafat loved the Jews. The Jews all over the world, as well as many other people, feared the man and his regime. Some supported him by silence as do those that won't say bin Laden's comments aren't threatening.
Jews have a history of poor treatment by various peoples. We have a tendency to blame the victims. I believe that one has to look at oneself for some answers, these people are a minority but in Israel. What happened to them during Hitlers reign proves they need a safety net. We allow other religions thrive..let them. They do not threaten your religion, nor you. They let you practice or not practice yours. Give them peace and they will do this for Gaza and the W.Bank.
The Israelis are not right to do this but you are forgetting that they did it in one place, Israel. Muslims did it all over the world not only the surrounding territory that was possibly a future home for Pals. Actually that is what the world seems to forget. The Jews are teeny part of the population of the world. Muslims are a gigantic force and they generally do not appreciate any other peoples.
Do you really think that Israel could exist and that the Muslim countries would keep out of this and not support Gaza's war. Did they not attack Israel every chance they had...think back to the beginning, when the US did not raise its hand.
Yirmeny...no, but should the Jews continually pay for the sins of those who persecute them, including Hitler, those who call them Christ killers and reprint lies like the translated books Saudi Arabia uses to teach their children hate. How about the myth of blood of none Jews in Matzoh? How about the character Farfur that my child son saw when visiting a friend's child in Jenin?
Cont)When attacked in the 40's it was not the Arabs from the area that attacked the Jews but all the surrounding nations as well. Pals are not alone. With regard to Hitler, I never acknowledged that there wasn't an alliance. I suggest you look over the history. Hitler and the Mufti and the Muslims in general had a very intimate relationship. Pals should recongize that the Mount and Jerusalem and Bethlehem is an International City and Jordan was wrong...
Bethlehem and Jerusalem were to be International cities. Jordan took control and did not allow Jews to pray on the Mount nor at the Western Wall. Secondly, they destroyed Jewish burial sites in East Jerusalem and moved the tombstones. Thirdly, most of the land given to Jews was land they occupied and
Do you not think the Muslims would attack it as it did before and that other Muslim nations would help...Iran for one. Bin Laden and his ilk for another. They have said so.
I mean there's a alltime best-selling religous book that says Israel was there a long time ago, and then they weren't, and then they were.Shall we analyze all of this?
Never has anyone I know..of any ethnic or religious group said anyone but Hitler caused the Holocaust, except those that want to blame the Jews as did Hitler. It is not a clever tactic it is indicative of the depth of hatred engrained by propaganda against the Jews and excuse for their own personal behavior. Hitler and el-Husseini alliance can be documented. He was an uncle to
Hitler did not want Jews to leave Europe...he just wanted to kill them. Is that not a bad thing? Israelis don't care if Palestinians move to a Muslim territory, the UN gave them Gaza and Jordan and they could have moved and called part of Jordan whatever they wanted. Jews chose to call their mandated land Israel.
Meanwhile Jews from all Muslim lands were tossed out, houses taken over as well as possession. The numbers were great. Israel took them in and protected them.
I never said since 1967..I said since its inception. I addressed the nonsense about peacefully and Hitler elsewhere. 1967 was a reaction to everything from the inception of Israel, including the illegal occupation of the Mount and Western Wall and the various shootings and Wars brought on by all the surrounding Muslim countries who supported the
Pals. Pals were not without backers then or now, it just is that Jordan and Egypt have come to their senses...some of their citizens
If they did, Israel would cease to exist. Do you think the Muslim world would let it? If you do you just validate how little you know of the reality of the situation and the history of the area.
Chuck: True, the question was "can the conflict be resolved?" but any attempt to resolve any conflict requires knowledge of events leading up to it. Most people, including Israelis, want to forget about the past and focus on the current situation. If they do that, it is easy to favor the Israeli side. If you look at the past, you have a better understanding (although not necessarily justification of) the Palestinian side.
Question: would the majority of Palestinians renounce violence if Israel admit that Palestinian rights were violated (by the formation of a Jewish state on their land without their approval), appologize for the mistakes made, allow Right of Return and provide compensation for their losses?
I think that would go a LONG ways towards reconcilliation.
Even better would be a single multi-ethnic state (call it Israel-Palestine) where BOTH sides have equal right and control.
The British argument was weak and the area excluded vague. It is commonly accepted that the Arabs had every reason to believe that Palestine was among the areas promised to them, especially considering their religious attachment to Jerusalem.
Unfortunately the British broke this promise in 1916 as a result of their "behind the scenes" agreement with France (and Russia). The Sykes-Picot agreement gave limited independence to a few Arab regions and created Mandates over the rest.
It is easy to under why the Arabs felt betrayed when, after the surrender of Ottoman Turkey in 1917, their lands were divided up amongst Britain and France. There were various Arab revolts which were extinguished rather aggressively.
To rub salt in the Arabs' wounds, the Balfour Declaration was announced in 1919, which declared that Britain supported the creation of a Jewish "homeland" in Palestine. This resulted in the beginning of organized immigration of Jews into Palestine.
It should also be easy to understand Arab resentment of Jewish immigration. As more and more immigrants arrived, the deeper and deeper was Arab alarm.
Probably partly due to Jewish anti-Zionist warnings, the "King-Crane Commission" released a report in 1919 that advised AGAINST transforming Palestine into an entirely Jewish state. Its recommendation was the forming of "Greater Syria" British and French objections prevented the report from ever being published.
This is really main cause of the problem and what most Westerners fail to understand but Palestinians will NEVER forget. The problem only grew worse as time passed, especially as the approach of WWII increased Jewish immigration dramatically. It was understandable that the Palestinians would associate Jewish immigration as another form of British colonialism.
Events leading up to WWII included violent acts committed by BOTH sides.
This only served to widen the gap between Jews and Arabs living in Palestine and make peaceful solutions harder and harder.
The Peel Commission of 1937 did a good job of identifying the source of the problem but later attempts at finding a solution could only suggest partitioning Palestine into two states.
Once WWII began and the events of the Holocaust became known to the world, a desperate increase in immigration began (much of it illegal).
No one should deny that the Jewish race had a right to exist and that Palestine was the logical place for them to escape to. But this should have never been at the expense of the indigenous population.
Most people believed then (as now) that a 2-state solution would never work. This is especially true when one side would have to give up almost half of their land. A multi-ethnic state might have worked but there was too much animosity on both sides by then.
Whatever the solution may be in the future, both sides will have to agree that each side has a right to exist and make sacrifices in order to come to a mutually acceptable solution. We can never forget the horrible plight of the Jewish people but we should also make every effort to look at the problem from the Palestinian side as well.
Someone mentioned that these comments have strayed away from the original question but the question can't be answered without knowledge of the past.
A lot of commenting is going on about events AFTER the 1948 declaration of the state of Israel. We need to step back and re-examine the events BEFORE the creation of Israel which is the root of the entire Palestine problem.
Simply put, the British promised the lands of the Middle East to the Arabs back in 1915 in order to encourage them to fight against Ottoman Turkey in WWI.
The British later claimed that the area of Palestine was excluded from these promised lands.
No, the Muslim of Palestine are not Hitler they just didn't care about what he was doing. My
plagiarizing is bad form but I am not writing a paper. It is not dishonest as it reflects what has happened, often in my personal experience not the word of others.
No. I am trying to say that this scared the Jews. It scared the Christians. It was considered a good thing by the Muslims and generally greeted well. I am trying to fight the lie that Muslim loved the Jews. That is the fabrication that hurt me and my friends.
More propaganda that indicates your lack of knowledge. Look at the whole Ottoman Empire. Israel was only promised that land on one side of the the Jordan river. Please I will not give up my experiences for sake of this arguement . Israel did take more land in 1967. The declared land of the International City of Jerusalem which had been taken by Jordan, none of the East Jerusalem which was had many destroyed Jewish sites, against laws. And high land that was used to shoot at Israelis.
aj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini, appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem by Sir Herbert Samuel the High Commissioner of British Mandatory Palestine in 1921, played a central role in introducing the ideology and tactics of the National Socialism of Adolf Hitler into the Arab World. In a career that spanned more than 5 decades, el-Husseini contributed to the development of Nazi style organizations in Arab capitals. If you don't believe it read up on a history written by an non-Muslim.
I think you had better read up on this. BTW, I was a Christian Palestinian, there were Jewish Palestinians, too. Not all Palestinians were Muslim. The Hitler alliance was not a lie. Look it up on the internet. If you notice my name, it is a Muslim name. Although I am not one, I was raised amongst them. I will not disclose my last name before marriage but it was more Arab than Christian.
There are many pictures of Hitler and the Grand Mufti together, enjoying a friendly chat.
1967. They were very tired of getting shot at from the Golan, it was high, they were low. I was with some friends hiking near Ramat Gan, the Palestinians shot at us,from a hill, maybe not to kill but to be playful, and to scare the hell out of us. We mistakenly wore some kibbuts like hats. As a non Muslim taking a bus through Afula or to Nazareth was scary.
Jews that I know, do not deny the existence of Muslims in the area. They resent being told that the Holocaust didn't happen and that it was always a happy marriage between Jews and Muslims under Muslim rule. They resent being told they were not pushed out of their houses in Muslim countries. They resent the alliance and greeting of Hitler just before and during the years of the Holocaust. His agenda and theirs was clear.
I don't think any intelligent person can deny the Holocaust took place. Too much documentation and photos, which was done for the explicit purpose of countering any future claims that this didn't exist. Those that deny it took place or try to minimize the magnitude are fanatics or those who are brainwashed by them.
rezasantorini: True, there were not many "happy marrigages" between ANY people living under Ottoman (Muslim) rule. Ayone who was Muslim got favored treatment and often abused this priviledge at the expense of their non-Muslim (Jewish and Crhistian) neighbors. Turkish rulers were ingenious in using this "divide and conquer" strategy to keep their subjects from uniting & rising up against them. When uprisings DID take place, they were brutally & mercilessly put down, not just in Middle East.
I do not say Jews aren't overly reactive to their own protection in Israel. I don't dismiss
SOME of this. I just believe that 1967 was the direct consequence of what happened to them earlier, including the Muslim reaction to the mandate, Hitler and the formation of the state. As a citizen of the area, who experience family death, threats and such, along with tales of earlier years from family and friends of all religions I do have an opinion. My quotes are meant as a quick "tactic"
rezasantorini: It's true that the Mufti allied his followers with Hitler during WWII and encouraged Nazi influence in the Middle East. But this was mainly in the French Mandate areas of Syria and Lebanon as a result of the peace treaty between the Nazis and the Vichy French goventment. The only Muslims to actually form fighting units were the Muslim "Bosniaks" that were part of fascist Coratia. They didn't target Jews though, they mainly fought local partisans.
If the Muslims all over their 22 countries plus Iran (over a billion, today) are angry at the Israelis and Jews (about 14.5 million)and threaten that they are going to damage them, don't you think that during the period of Nazi Germany and directly afterward this scared the Jews. Please remember that most Jewish families, unlike the Muslim diaspora and the Pals, were directly effected by the Nazis.
"In January 1941, underground Jewish militia "LEHI" (AKA Stern Gang), whose most famous member was Yitzak Shamir, proposed alliance between itself & Nazis, expressing sympathy with "German conception" of a "New Order in Europe," & offering to cooperate with Germany in forming Jewish state "on a totalitarian basis which will establish relations with German Reich" & protect Nazi interests in Middle East. (see Chomsky, The Fateful Triangle, 95)"
The Jews did not really live peacefull with the Muslims...they lived carefully, as they do in Iran today. Islam has never loved their Jews, any more than Saddam loved Iran and Kuwait.
There was no peace...my family is from Bethlehem. The Mufti invited and encouraged the Nazi's to Jerusalem. My uncle, a Christian was
killed in an attack on Jews in Hebron before WW2. Please Yirmey, do not waste my time. You do not know nor understand truth. You live in a far distant past. Not the last Century. The occupation is a result of the hate since the legal formation of the state and the hate during WW2 and before.
Israel is legal was attacked finally blew its wad in 1967. Hitler is a fact of the Jewish peoples history. just made them want the Balfour promises pushed along after years after the end of the Ottoman Empire. Italy does not have the history of killing Jews as did the Muslims in the area of Jerusalem Europe in general did not invite the Nazis The Mufti welcomed him, a hero, as did Muslims. read history. Mussalini was not a hero to Italy. Still isn't. Can we say that of Muslims?
Please, I am through with this discussion. You have no understanding of my life in the area and my experience, you only know you hate the Jews.
I am a Christian Arab, a Palestinian and I hate neither. They were all my friends...but Jews have a right and Muslims would not allow them to live in peace. And yes, many Muslims encouraged the Nazis, including the Mufti of Jerusalem. He did not like the Christians either. He encouraged all religions to fight and Muslim dominance.
But accept the fact that Jews always lived in the area. The Ottoman Empire lost the land, Balfour mandated some won land to the Jews...Jordan got some, so did Egypt so did Syria, etc. The Muslims wanted even more.
After many attacks on the State of Israel once declared, in 1967 the Jews finally, with patience stretched and anger over the breaking of the promise for an International City of Jerusalem that they agreed to under Jordan control, they finally hit back and hard.
rezasantorini: Jews may have always lived in Palestine but were NOT a majority. The Ottoman Empire lost the land because Arabs were PROMISED that land if they fought the Turkish army during WWI. Sykes-Picot agreement broke that promise and after Balfour Declaration, Jewish immigration increased at a rate which alarmed Arab population. Read 1937 Peel Commission Report. Israel was declared on a land partitioned almost 50-50 to benefit a Jewish MINORITY against the wishes of an Arab MAJORITY.
Yes, the Arabs were alarmed at the Jewish immigration. Jews were alarmed at Hitler being welcomed and so on. The land was not partitioned 50/50...much more was given to Muslims and rightly so, they were a majority. Some land was even declared International, such as part of Jerusalem. Muslims never accepted Jews having any land, hence the first War and them being barred from their holy sites, let alone the destruction of some sacred places, including ancient burial grounds and markers.
rezasantorini: I don't think the issue was Arabs not allowing Jews any land. They were being flooded with Jewish immigrants (legal and illegal) which was intended to create a Jewish MAJORITY that would certainly vote to declare all of Palestine (originally including Trans-Jordan) as an Israeli state. British (and UN?) tried offering a paritioning of Palestine into 2 states, which the Arabs rejected. I support the right of Jews to exist as a people and state but not at the expense of others.
Much of Jordan is part of the partition. Gaza was given to Egypt. Muslims did not accept this. I think some of Syria was also part of the partition. Not accepting Israel and starting a war on their day of Independence in '48 was just the first of a few wars. 1967 was just Jews reaction to the attacks plus, the conditions at the Mount and the Wall that was suppose to be International. Under Jordan with the Israelis in agreement, they trusted the newly formed Jordan. A mistake.
I really don't know which one of your comments to reply to. And, I am so angry at Bin Laden and the lack of criticism from the "world" that it only proves my point, Israel may be backed by the Western world but Gaza is backed by the Billion or so Muslims. Poor Gaza.
I don't know about others. But, I'm more concerned about losing our own freedoms/borders here in the U.S.. It's a shame that most of our elected politicians have taken a back seat to this. There will always be problems in the Middle East region since there is oil and religious extremists there.
Jimmy Carter is the ONLY person in America than can publically critcize Israel. if he wasn't a former President, he'd be censored like everybody else.
As long as the U.S. is dictated to by AIPAC, nothing will change. Many people deny that this is happening. But if it's not, then how come almost all American politicans always try to appease AIPAC? How come it's pratically illegal to publically criticize Israel in the U.S.? But Israel can debate about this w/no problem?
What is wrong with protecting Israel..? It needs our protection...especially since it is the only safety net for Jews. Muslims have 22 states as safety nets and can hide amongst the billions of Islamic followers, Christians have billions. Why can't Jews have a safety net, you saw what the world did to them in Hitlers day and the Muslims even allied with them. They Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and he were Pals. Forgive my pun.
The only wayout to this dilema is for isreal to draw back to the 1948 border,give the Aqsa mosk and it's area to the Palestinians and give the right to return home to who ever wants to of the Palestinians.
There are so few Jews in this world it is not a suprise that few support them, especially when Islam controls the worlds oil supply and out number the Jews ... 14.5 Million Jews world wide. Billion plus Muslims and an equal amount of Christians, many who only care about the price of oil and supported Hitler because they didn't think he'd do the damage he did. We cannot be that stupid again.
Praise for Hitler among Arabs did not vanish after the war. In 1965, a Moroccan commentator on Middle East affairs wrote this in the French magazine Les Temps Modernes: "A Hitlerian myth is being cultivated on a popular level. Hitler's massacre of the Jews is eulogized. It is even believed that Hitler did not die. His arrival is longed for.''
In mid-2001, an Egyptian columnist wrote in the government-sponsored Al-Akhbar: ''Thank you, Hitler, of blessed memory, who on behalf of the Palestinians avenged in advance against the most vile criminals on Earth.'' Two months later, Egypt's Press Syndicate awarded this writer its highest distinction.
Pro-German parties and youth movements attuned to the trappings of National-Socialism sprouted in Syria, Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt. Even Nazi slogans were translated into Arabic. A Mideast song popular in the late 1930s crooned: ''No more Monsieur, no more Mister. In Heaven Allah, on Earth Hitler.'' The Füehrer himself was even Islamicized under the new name of Abu Ali.
Israel should not just go back to their 1967 borders, they should go back to their 1948 borders. Palestine can offer (dual) citizenship to any Jewish settlements within their borders or the Israelis living there can re-settle in Israeli lands (at Israeli expense). Is this realistic? Probably not but something similar will have to happen if there is to be peace.
Jeursalem was to be an International city...Jordan broke that UN arrangement and then tore up the East Jerusalem Jewish holy sites.
How can that be fixed...oh yes, Muslims also built another Mosque on the Mount, destroying Jewish antiquities. Regarding the 1948 borders, they were unacceptable to the Muslims they attacked Israel immediately after they were founded.
Palestinians will have to accept the fact that they have lost most of their land, even though it was unjustly "partitioned" when Israel declared its statehood. Israel will have to trade "land for peace" with the Palestinians, just like they did with Egypt, Jordan and Syria (and others?).
I wont make it long here. I will only summarize my point of view over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by saying this:
There will be peace because i am an optimistic person despite the ugliness of reality. We all know Palestine was chosen by Alexander Hertz the founder of Zionism for his people and he knew very well he would have the general public to support him as that land was referenced in the bible as the land of Jewish. the US was glad because now the Middles East was becoming unstable
i believe that the destabilization of the middle east is controlled by arms profit. the U.S and Britain new that when Israel was put into Palestine that it would be a powder keg for many generations and corporate profits would soar just as they have with the invasion of Iraq and all U.S foreign involvement. it always is and will always be about greed and profit. i see no peace in sight.
Pals constantly say they are ok is sacrificing their kids for Allah. They cry the take pictures of the bodies for the papers, they photograph the blood but they then happily train the next one of the glories of sacrifice and how to wear a bomb .
Living in a home does not make it yours as the Jews learned in Arab lands where they were told to leave as punishment for Israel being declared. Maybe Gaza is punishment for that.
Yes, they declared a State and upset the Arabs. The fact that some of the Arabs allied with Hitler had no effect? Maybe Jews who lived in the area, like Hebron, may have a little aggressive after suffering the Holocaust. How about the fact that they had been promised the land by the Balfour delclaration. had you never heard of all the massacres against the Jews and driven from their homes? None...although I am not a Jew, my family is from Bethlehem. We know the history.
Which Arabs allied with Hitler exactly? Arabs were busy trying to free their own lands from Western occupation.Those who gave the promise did not own the land to start with. Which massacres and which Jews were driven from their homes? Back then, most Arab countries had Jewish citizens, living in peace with their Muslim & Christian neighbors.The truth is Palestinians and the whole MENA region was made to pay for the mistreatment of Jews in Europe. I hope you get your history rechecked.
Those in Palestine. This is known by the whole world, except by people like you who refuse to face the truth. Yes, those who gave the land were legal owners and had taken it from the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Jews were mandated part of it. Many countries got a part..including TransJordan, now Jordan. Look up the massacre at Hebron in the 30's as a small example. My Christian uncle was killed
You are wrong. The ottoman Empire ended and Britain had control. 90% was given to Muslims,all east of the Jordan. West of the JOrdan there was 10% and the arid and unihabitable land was given to the Jews...
We want peace !!!
mitya80 3 years ago
I have also ready much from both sides and it's usually pretty easy to spot propoganda or obvious distortions of facts/truth.
But it is rather difficcult to find balanced information that truthfully represents both sides.
One of the sites that I think is fair and non-biased is the folowing: mideastweb(dot)org/briefhistory(dot)htm
We'll see if this circumvents the policy about not posting web links. :-)
Methusela1956 3 years ago
An Anglo-American commission of inquiry in 1945 and 1946 examined the status of Palestine. Jews had purchased 6 to 8 percent of the total land area of Palestine. This was about 20% of the land that could be settled and cultivated. About 46% of the land was registered in the tax registers to Arab villages, to Arabs living on the land, or absentee owners, and about the same amount was government land. However, most of this land was not privately owned.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
The Arabs of Palestine had received much of their land in leases conditional upon cultivation or used land that was part of village commons. The partition borders were drawn to give the Jews a majority within the allotted area of the Jewish state.
Of course this doesn't make the partition "fair" but one should not take for granted that the Arabs of Palestined OWNED the other 92-94% of the land.
It would also be interesting to know what kind of compensation (if any) was offered to Arabs.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
My "view" was taking into consideration ALL of the land divisions that took place after WWI, not just the Middle East. It was that, compared to all other conquered territories, the Arabs fared pretty well even though the land that was eventually partitioned in 1947 contained a Jewish minority (30%) that got about 50% of that land. Not equally "fair" to all sides but not that much different than what the British did in India: splitting it into India and Pakistan in 1947.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
Not to "split hairs" but, according to what I have read, the area of what is now called Jordan WAS part of the original Palestine Mandate given to the British at the San Remo conference in 1920. In 1922 the mandated land was split up and the area east of the Jordan river was designated as Transjordan. The map also shows what looks to be probably the Golan Heights as being given to Syria in 1923. :-)
Methusela1956 3 years ago
The Israel/Palestine issue is just one example of the Allies dividing & re-distributing conquered lands after WWI. New countries were formed and not always along lines of ethnic majorities. Look at Czechoslovakia & Yugoslavia. These 2 areas were later divided during WWII & there was quite a bit of animosity between enthic groups, particularily in Yugoslavia. While Czechoslovakia split into two states peacefully after the collapse of the Soviet Union, look at what happened to Yugoslavia.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
When looked at from this view, the Arabs got more than their fair share of the land. While the Arabs were promised MOST of the land and not ALL of it, the Allies should have been more considerate of the religious claims to Jerusalem and declared that an "international city" from the start.
As it was, the small percentage of land allocated to the Jews from ALL of the conquered Ottoman territories seems quite reasonable when compared to Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
The Jews were satisfied with the 5% of the total land. They declared it ISRAEL.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yes...they were original occupants even before the Ottomans. they always said they were to go back...but that is the bible.
With regard to land and percentages...Israel has 5%, about of the 100 that was doled out...after the end of the Ottoman empire. Ask Jordan and Syria and the other countries to give their land back...you are speaking foolishness. If the Muslims wanted peace they could have accepted the 5% given to Israel ...
they wouldn't didn't and will never. They chose WAR.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
well I say the criminal nature of the Muslims of Gaza...
rezasantorini 3 years ago
What occurs under the peace process...is the launching of rockets from the returned Gaza.
See, Yirmeyahu..both sides have a position. You just see one..yours and the Pals. My favorite Pal position is open the gates and will will stop launching rockets long enough for us to fill our larders, ammo depots, send in a few bombers get some more rockets, etc. Then the war will start again. I really can not have this discussion with you...your inability to see that the Jews are small and isolated.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I only read books and comment by the Muslims who don't like Islam..Wafa Sultan, etc.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yes, there are those...just like the Jews you choose to read....
rezasantorini 3 years ago
90% of the Ottoman Empire was given to the Muslim Arabs...the remaining 10% divided between Jews and Muslims. Don't forget the 90%. Convenient thinking.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Now when you read the Jerusalem and Haaretz and the people's responses, I am sure you notice that they don't all love Iran, etc. But when you read Al Jazeera do you ever notice that the questions asked are what should the US do or Israel do about their President, or about some other internal situation and everybody has an answer on how to run this country. Even those from Pakistan, India, Afghanistan while news of from these countries tell of internal strife, Muslim VS Muslim, often starving.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Muslims do not compromise...it is seemingly against their religion. They are allowed to tell tales to make their point. Yirmeny may be a nice person but doesn't have a clue about the history as he has limited access to the stories as do many who don't realize how much Muslim readings are revisionist. Some don't even mention the association with Hitler. Some don't mention how Jordan became such a large country, etc. Gazaans have chosen not to assimilate into the lands and have chosen war.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I am sorry that your country blocks the links
but don't you think that the Jews living in the land were a bit intimdated by the Nazis in full dress who were walking around the territory and visiting the Jewish holy sites etc. Especially at the guest of the Muslims that you claim lived peacefully with their neighbors? How friendly was that?
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yes, that is not true...I am not sure he himself went. But his men were all over the place. In full dress and with the intent of scaring the Jews.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Jews always lived in the land...always, well before the Christians and the Muslims. Again you are saying Arabs or Pals. I am a Arab and I left my home because the Muslims made our lives miserable jealous of our business near the church in Bethlehem where we sold Christian memoribilia. It was the British that divided the land...they won the land from the Ottoman Empire after WWI and gave 90% to the Muslim countries, the last 10% was divided between Pals and Jews. Giving Jews the arid land.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yes, this is easy to confirm: the original Palestine Mandate included what is now Jordan. From the maps I've seen it might not quite be 90& of the original mandate but easily 2/3 or 3/4 of it. Of the remaining land, the Jews had by 1946 already legally purchased about 6 to 8%. I think the main issue the Arabs had was that they didn't want to share the GOVERNING of Palestine with the Jews. They didn't want increased Jewish immigration which could result in a Jewish Majority.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
I think the whole issue boiled down to failure of the Arabs to compromise. It's easy to look back and say "if only the Arabs had accepted the 1947 partition..." but I suspect that there was more going on behind the scenes than that.
Egypt and Syria in particular had plans of their own for Palestine. Lebanon and Jordan and Iraq also provided troops that would eventually attack the Jews. They each had their own agendas and were not willing to coordinate their armies. They lost.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
I don't know all of the current issues that are involved in preventing a peaceful settlement but we all know that Israel has been able to make peace with other countries that wanted peace. Can it be that the extremists (on both sides) don't WANT peace because it would involve giving up too much?
These are rhetorical questions meant to invite comment from anyone, not just rezasantorini and Yirmeyahu001. :-)
Methusela1956 3 years ago
There aren't many Jewish extremists except those that don't believe Israel should exist. Few don't want peace, even though they don't like Muslims. Israelis want peace, without suicide bombers and rocket launchers. They'd not mind sharing the water etc. Just not the terror. They'd like the Muslims to stop saying we will give you peace but we can't account for those Muslims that want to kill you..be they PLO, Hamas or whatsoever. That is how it has been.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
You show no understanding of the need for the Jews to have a bit of land for a safety net especially after the Holocaust. You only see what is happening to the poor Gazaans not what they did to themselves..that led to what is happening. You don't give them credit for what they do give the Gazaans. You don't give them credit for allowing them citizenship, nor a vote in the Knesset, or even for allowing them to vote in the Gaza elections. You blindly support the anti Israelis.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
mufti of palestine/ Look at the tea time pictures...or the pictures of his representatives. they were all over the area.
Please I don't have time for your detail picking
look at the site I sent you read.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I he was there he scared the daylights out of the Jews...doesn't this make sense?
rezasantorini 3 years ago
He or his representatives in full dress.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I have sent you numerous links to readings that tell a different story about the Mufti and then numerous one to history about the land of the Ottomans and how it was divided. You keep on ignoring this. Are you in an area that blocks and censors your utube...wherein you can't get the material. You insist you won't discuss these areas with me, and I wonder why. You do not seem to be unintelligent but call these particular points lies or revisionists. I am wondering, if this is the problem?
rezasantorini 3 years ago
My goodness...I lived what I lived and saw what I saw. If you do not have the heart nor compassion to understand the hell that the Jewish people experienced or the effect of the Hitler visits to the Palestinian territory you are sadly missing a part of that heart and compassion.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Doesn't that show that US doesn't blindly support Israel....
rezasantorini 3 years ago
There are too many Muslim countries or countries with Muslim majorities who vote against the Jews in Israel...they are a minority. MINORITY.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yes, many may have believed this. Now let me ask you about you. Why are you living here? You really seem to hate this country? You have no faith in it or its future. I am a naturalized citizen and I just love it here. So proud to have my children have this open education.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
read my post giving you facts on the Mufti. Call it what you want. They had a deal. With regard to calling me a liar,,,you have, and I really don't care. It is your way. With regard to Palestinians the Gazans are Palestinians, it is just that saying the Palestinians without calling attentions to which when referencing all, you intone the whole population, not just the Muslims which makes some people think the whole Ottoman territory was Muslim, it wasn't. It is part of the numbers game.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yrimeyahu...I lived in the area, I saw the welcome he received, even as a little girl I saw the terror he brought to the eyes of the Christians and Jews...I also saw the Muslims greetings as if he was going to make the Ottoman empire theirs. I don't care what you are reading it is revisionists writings, I lived it...
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I didn't see his welcome literally but I did see the respect he received and the hope he brought to the Muslims...they thought he would give them the whole Ottoman Empire...Jewless and with Islam in charge...just as Europe would have no Jews, they wouldn't either. They'd not have to divide the land as per Balfour or any mandate. They never wanted that ... never.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yep, many of us believed there were WMD. Saddams refusal to let the UN inspect helped this. I never believed he was the source of 9/11 ...never and never did I hear any of my friends say they did.
They did think bin Laden and AlQaeda.
We did think Saddam was a brutal dictator and that he was invading Iran...sorry he didn'tand was torturing his people, he was. We thought his sons were evil as evil could be. They were. WMD, we thought our government knew. We were wrong.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
You don't understand because you don't know what it means to see beyond your own point in time, in space in history. It is only YOUR view, point in time and moment of validity that counts. Thus there isn't a broad spectrum..here is a dead body, thus it must be the Jews fault, is your thinking/
rezasantorini 3 years ago
You repeatedly call the poor isolated people in Gaza the Palestinians...when in fact they are Muslims who chose to be isolated and poor when they voted in Hamas, democratically, to live a life that supported a terrorist group..determined to wipe out another.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
You called me names but do not insult... \I've heard denial before. Hitler \the Mufti existed met and planned, they didn't sign your "alliance" paper, but they "did the dirty xdeed" started to execute it. Muslim brotherhood as a group is to me Muslims who will stick together against Jews and others
...inspite of country and tribal lines. Iran fighting in Iraq, Syria in Lebanon the threats of bin Laden and Iran.
What was done to the COLE. London Spain. cheered by all of ISLAM. Hate US
rezasantorini 3 years ago
No one I know, here in the US or in Israel, or in Italy think Iraqis pulled of the attacks against the US...unless a few were involved, by chance. We believe it was Muslims...a group most likely run by Bin Laden...a spin off group from many places...part of Islam.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I associate the people of Iraq, those who worked with Saddam with terrorism. I do not associate
all Palestinians with Hitler, just those that welcomed him and his into their hearts. I throw in Bin Laden because he is a hero for some...it is not psychological it is association by acceptance of his behavious. No one is turning him in. Yet he speakes to them in a manny one speaks as a leader.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
You have an inability to see through a broad spectrum...you see through a slit cut in dark dirty glasses.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I say this over and over again because you seem to forget the whole territory belonged to Palestinians of all religion and ethnicity ...and all were moved around and all were frightened. Many displaced, not just those of Islam. Jewish Pals were taken care of by their own people not left in tents, Jews from other countries came and were included in Israel, not ignored, they assimilated. Thus they are now a country...What is the W.Bank but Muslims
who refused assimilation, what of Gaza..
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Sure Israel pulled out to be the bad guys, and to make sure Gillat was kidnapped, to have Gazaans bomb the internal holy places and start launching rockets. Yep, they were just bad Jews again.
Dork..they pulled out and they the stuff started happening ... instead of celebrating and getting to work on their country they starting beating their macho chests. We won we won. Now give us more.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Calling me a liar is one of your names...I don't know what each Muslim group is call I reference the group of Muslims who call themselves Muslims and believers in Islam, Muslims, regardless of what tribe or name. That means Gaza part of the Muslim brotherhood and so is Iran and bin Laden
rezasantorini 3 years ago
American doesn't govern by a bible or a God..it is not part of our Constitution. The Wars against Israel were aggressive...
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I'm an Arab, I wasn't expelled. Muslims who were willing to fight the Jews were. And they were in the area. Muslims all over Islamic countries kicked out Jews, not just the Middle East.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Well, I don't think anyone expects that Israel will give ALL the land back. That's a bit like the US saying to the Native American Indians "sorry 'bout that, here's all your land back". :-)
Methusela1956 3 years ago
I have answered your questions time and time again. You just don't accept my answers. You call me names. Call it an alliance, call it what you want...the Muslims and Hitler slept together, I gave you links and there are links on line. You refuse to accept them because they never I am a Muslim and I loved Hitler. Meanwhile the links are available. I will not
respond to this anymore. I have revealed my experience, that is all I can do. You call me names I call you fool.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Growing up in Bethlehem, I was a Palestinian...my parents read the Palestinian Post and my friends regardless of their religion were Palestinians. As we speak your posts become increasingly narrow and indicative of your background that sees the world through a slit..rather than a broad perspective.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Muslim brothers it what they call each other...they are my brothers. Keep on insulting me..it just indicates your intellect.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Lie, Lie, Lie, when you say Palestinians and reference that period of time you include me, my family and all the people of the Ottoman Empire who were not then part reassigned to other Muslim countries land, including the very increased area called Jordan. I was one of them and resent being called a Palestinian, for it intones Muslim to the world. They chose the word for purposes of propaganda. At once time I felt pride in the word but when it was used against the Jews it ceased to be.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
You call it a lie, I call it realistic. But, you see the Muslim Palestinians as nearly innocent and just victims in this and I don't.
I see them as people who don't want Israel or Jews in the area, they want control of all the remaining Ottoman Empire and feel much like the Koran should should have the legal right of being the law. Alas, we disagree. BTW, have you lived in the area?
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yirmeyahu001: I thought I asked this earlier but maybe my question didn't get posted or maybe I just thought I did. :-)
I am not entirely sure of what you're referring to when you mention Israel's violation of international law.
Are you referring to the UN General Assembly's Resolution 194 (right of return) and/or Resolution 242 (land for peace)?
Methusela1956 3 years ago
Gaza is not alone...it is part of the Muslim brotherhood.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
It was always poor Gaza.
It was never hey Gaza was alone, Muslims are each separate and they won't interfere. hahah.
Sure...just like Iran and Syria aren't interfering now...just like bin Laden isn't Muslim and just like Fatah can't control Hamas and the other way around, and no one can take responsibility for the various splinter groups, ever. Wasn't Hezbollah suppose to leave Lebanonon? Who created the tension and kidnapped the soldier that started the Lebanese War against Israel?
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Wrong, it wasn't the Palestinian people, it was the Muslims. I am a Palestinian, but a Christian. There were Christian and Jewish Palestinians. Why do some people not get the fact that the area, the old Ottoman Empire was not all Muslim. Why do the Muslims refuse to accept responsibility for the Mufti, the British eventually were victims of Hitler...that sure wasn't in the name of the Brits.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Use whatever word you choose. The Mufti and his followers were supporters of Hitler. Go look up the history and hear what was said of this Mufti guy during the Nurenburg trials and the trial
of Eichman, years later. I will not call you a liar, just a typical Muslim who gets on a point and thinks saying it over and over makes it so. Yes, Jews are bad, Islam is the religion of PEACE...everything is the fault of Jews and the US. Read it on Al Jazeera views.
These people know.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
wrong, wrong, wrong and then again wrong. Where were you during this time?
rezasantorini 3 years ago
They supported him as bin Laden and other anti-Israel/Jewish/Israel leaders and people dismissed today.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
No..if the US would stop support for Israel, it would stop support for all allies. It would mean Muslims everywhere, not only the mid east would invade, as they did before as they do anywhere they can and are doing everywhere leaving their countries and moving in and demanding laws be changed. How terrible that 9/11 happened but even more terrible that he threatens again and Islam shuts up..how terrible that Jews aren't safe in Muslim lands. But they scream about bias towards them.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Jewish people have had a terrible time andare determined to exist. Even now some say they didn't fight hard enough in Germany, that they use gentile blood in matza ( still taught in some Muslim countries) that they control this and that, all garbage. They would be invaded and wiped out by Islam if not for the West. But most of all Israel cares for their own and it is why they built a country with shelters and hospitals...and if they weren't attacked, they would have helped Gaza and all Pals.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Muslims in general, which included the so called Palestinian Muslims, not me and my Christian Palestinians, did embrace him and the Nazi's that came. Please do not treat this lightly for it scared the heck out of us who embrassed our Jewish neighbors..and it didn't scare Muslims. They as a whole did not care what happened to the Jews, then or now. Or even before the Nazi's. Islam wants religious dominance everywhere...
rezasantorini 3 years ago
You are a fool if you think you can pretend Pals
are innocent and not backed by all of Islam and haven't been all along...they just happen to be
a tool of the rich oil laden ones. They are the
pimple that all are willing to sacrifice instead of allowing to heal. Nothing Israel has done compares to what has been done to Jews, the US, London, Spain, etc. You see no
corollary because you choose to pretend Pals are isolated and what has happened to Jews all over the world is the same.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Everywhere and even in the UN Muslim nations tie themselves to Pals...they vote in such a way to make it appear as if Pals treachery doesn't count but only Israel does bad things. No one
commented about the attack on the school of teens, on the rocket launchings on the years Jews couldn't pray at the Western Wall at the destruction of Jewish cemetaries, etc. I could go on and on...it is the mentality of the Islamics to say, "who me.? No, Arafat didn't speak with forked tongue?
rezasantorini 3 years ago
They are Muslim people from the area of the middle east and reflect the feelings of the people...you think you can pretend that there is a difference. Arafat was his nephew and took leadership of the Pals. Egypt was one of the countries that attacked Israel at the begining. There is a Muslim brotherhood...they claim it all the time. Please...the world is not dumb...
rezasantorini 3 years ago
read up buddy...Mufti of Jerusalem. I don't know what you call an alliance, but I sure think that was one.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Israel is alone with no one but the US. What happened here with the twin towers was horrendous and that was illegal. What happened in Spain and LOndan and elsewhere. What Bin Ladin threatens is horrendous. Yet you have the nerve to act as if Pals are alone... You are not worth a discussion. I and speaking of oppression, Muslims did and do all they can write because I hope others see you for what you are. A MUSLIM who sees only a Muslim as worthy.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yes, the US backs Israel. All of Islam backs the Pals. We have seen that time and time again. That is okay after all they are brothers.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yes, Pals always begin with after this and this happens like the return of all lands, return of all prisoners and we get what we want we will consider negotiating nor more attacks. We will not discuss our past transgression or what led to them, only your bad.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I think both sides are reluctant to admit their faults. That is human nature, after all. But both sides MUST do this to make an honest attempt at a mutually agreeable settlement. Someone is going to have to be the "better person" and be the first to admit their mistakes and ask the other side for forgiveness, which must happen before honest reconciliation can take place.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
I think that the return of the land in Gaza could have been a start. As it was greeted with
rocket attacks and the kidnapping of the soldier
Shallit, I doubt that more land will be returned
without some major act by Gaza. The fact that Israel didn't invade Gaza then and then Hezbollah kidnapped more soldiers led to the
attack on Lebanon. The Israelis were very irate at the reaction from Gaza and it emboldened Hezbollah.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
What is it you call it when Israel attacks and
collective punishment...well that is true. Just like bin Laden bombing the trade center...which he admits and Muslims deny.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I've answered every question but you insist on ignoring the answers, calling me a liar, etc.
I can understand you not enjoying my putting all of Islam together and not wanting me to think that Pals are an isolated group, who are being picked on...but I don't. I see them as a group of Muslims being used by all of Islam to allow people such as the leader of Iran, bin Laden, whoever to shout out against Israel, "my poor brothers." You won't accept that they are just that...together and domineers.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yes, it is about me...it is about my experience.
Yes, I have an over inflated ego. In your mind not bowing down to Islam is egomaniacal.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Why didn't Gazaans sit down and talk after the return of Gaza...why did they start with demands and bombs? Why have they had such internal fighting and did they kick out Fatah? They wanted less fighting and more peace? Pals have had a tendency to make demands, without negotiations and not be able to say all our people..we can't account for those.
Meaning Hamas, Hezbolla or some splinter group. How can one negotiate with that? Israel at least tries.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yes, I am in private talks with some people who did not even know that the Mufti existed, that Jordan blocked the Jews. I don't really care
what you think of my intelligence, I know the names you have called me and how you have not
acknowledged my experience. The Mufti did not just have tea and crumpets with Hitler and was
his name was brought up several times at the Nuremberg trial, by Hitlers soldiers.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
The Israelis have indicated at times a willingness to consider negotiation on this point. Muslims do not recognize what they did to Jerusalem.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
They are victims of electing Hamas whose platform including not making peace with Israel, and destroying them, they are victims of considering the return of Gaza a "win" so that they starting launching rockets instead of building a country, they chose to destroy holy Jewish buildings, and even the crops left for them instead of building from that moment on...then complained that Israel didn't do enough for them.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
They weren't punished...they were asked to accept the mandate or the declaration. The Ottoman Empire was broken up..they chose to fight and to kill and to think they could get it all and to ignore a few facts. They also thought they'd get rid of the Jews when Hitler won.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
It was Jordan with the backing of the neighbors that didn't allow Jews to pray at their sites
from 47 - 67. They did that, and they destroyed Jewish sites in E.Jerusalem and elsewhere. I even saw them doing it. Even saw some urinating on the Wall...call me a liar again, it does not hurt.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yirmeyahu001..you speak like a Muslim, and one who was educated by the extremist who does not accept that Muslims had any part in the terror that has happened in the Palestinian territory nor what is NOW Israel, nor what was once where Jews and Christians lived nor whatever you cared to call it. You also speak as if you see through a lens with one teeny hole. As someone who sees through a lens of experience,
and it one that sees more than Muslims, but the right of all, you sicken me.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
YES...listen to Muslim leaders. Look at history.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Netua Karta has their reason, JAC and Jews not Zionists just prove that Jews do not have a all is one mentality and don't think as one...which is pretty much why Judaism and Israelis are not is not a cult. It is why most of the propaganda sprout is why I support them...Jews have individual minds.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I guess you think meeting with him, visiting with him, etc. is not an alliance. Even being friends means nothing. Oh, please forget this discussion. We cannot talk, name calling and calling me a liar does nothing to your logic. I believe you only read propagada written by Muslim allowed press for if you go to the open internet you will see more. I find you and yours the reason for hatred in the world. I call them Farfur believers.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I am sorry for the spelling of your name. If you do not think the Mufti supported Hitler, you are wrong. It is like saying he and his nephew Arafat loved the Jews. The Jews all over the world, as well as many other people, feared the man and his regime. Some supported him by silence as do those that won't say bin Laden's comments aren't threatening.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Jews have a history of poor treatment by various peoples. We have a tendency to blame the victims. I believe that one has to look at oneself for some answers, these people are a minority but in Israel. What happened to them during Hitlers reign proves they need a safety net. We allow other religions thrive..let them. They do not threaten your religion, nor you. They let you practice or not practice yours. Give them peace and they will do this for Gaza and the W.Bank.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
The Israelis are not right to do this but you are forgetting that they did it in one place, Israel. Muslims did it all over the world not only the surrounding territory that was possibly a future home for Pals. Actually that is what the world seems to forget. The Jews are teeny part of the population of the world. Muslims are a gigantic force and they generally do not appreciate any other peoples.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Do you really think that Israel could exist and that the Muslim countries would keep out of this and not support Gaza's war. Did they not attack Israel every chance they had...think back to the beginning, when the US did not raise its hand.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yirmeny...no, but should the Jews continually pay for the sins of those who persecute them, including Hitler, those who call them Christ killers and reprint lies like the translated books Saudi Arabia uses to teach their children hate. How about the myth of blood of none Jews in Matzoh? How about the character Farfur that my child son saw when visiting a friend's child in Jenin?
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Cont)When attacked in the 40's it was not the Arabs from the area that attacked the Jews but all the surrounding nations as well. Pals are not alone. With regard to Hitler, I never acknowledged that there wasn't an alliance. I suggest you look over the history. Hitler and the Mufti and the Muslims in general had a very intimate relationship. Pals should recongize that the Mount and Jerusalem and Bethlehem is an International City and Jordan was wrong...
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Bethlehem and Jerusalem were to be International cities. Jordan took control and did not allow Jews to pray on the Mount nor at the Western Wall. Secondly, they destroyed Jewish burial sites in East Jerusalem and moved the tombstones. Thirdly, most of the land given to Jews was land they occupied and
had bought.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Do you not think the Muslims would attack it as it did before and that other Muslim nations would help...Iran for one. Bin Laden and his ilk for another. They have said so.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I mean there's a alltime best-selling religous book that says Israel was there a long time ago, and then they weren't, and then they were.Shall we analyze all of this?
chuck4842 3 years ago
ok Methusela, a look at history, will help in a resolution....How far back?
chuck4842 3 years ago
Never has anyone I know..of any ethnic or religious group said anyone but Hitler caused the Holocaust, except those that want to blame the Jews as did Hitler. It is not a clever tactic it is indicative of the depth of hatred engrained by propaganda against the Jews and excuse for their own personal behavior. Hitler and el-Husseini alliance can be documented. He was an uncle to
Arafat. Check on line.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Hitler did not want Jews to leave Europe...he just wanted to kill them. Is that not a bad thing? Israelis don't care if Palestinians move to a Muslim territory, the UN gave them Gaza and Jordan and they could have moved and called part of Jordan whatever they wanted. Jews chose to call their mandated land Israel.
Meanwhile Jews from all Muslim lands were tossed out, houses taken over as well as possession. The numbers were great. Israel took them in and protected them.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I never said since 1967..I said since its inception. I addressed the nonsense about peacefully and Hitler elsewhere. 1967 was a reaction to everything from the inception of Israel, including the illegal occupation of the Mount and Western Wall and the various shootings and Wars brought on by all the surrounding Muslim countries who supported the
Pals. Pals were not without backers then or now, it just is that Jordan and Egypt have come to their senses...some of their citizens
have not.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
If they did, Israel would cease to exist. Do you think the Muslim world would let it? If you do you just validate how little you know of the reality of the situation and the history of the area.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Methusela, you have great facts. But the question was not how we got here.
chuck4842 3 years ago
Chuck: True, the question was "can the conflict be resolved?" but any attempt to resolve any conflict requires knowledge of events leading up to it. Most people, including Israelis, want to forget about the past and focus on the current situation. If they do that, it is easy to favor the Israeli side. If you look at the past, you have a better understanding (although not necessarily justification of) the Palestinian side.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
Question: would the majority of Palestinians renounce violence if Israel admit that Palestinian rights were violated (by the formation of a Jewish state on their land without their approval), appologize for the mistakes made, allow Right of Return and provide compensation for their losses?
I think that would go a LONG ways towards reconcilliation.
Even better would be a single multi-ethnic state (call it Israel-Palestine) where BOTH sides have equal right and control.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
(2 of 8)
The British argument was weak and the area excluded vague. It is commonly accepted that the Arabs had every reason to believe that Palestine was among the areas promised to them, especially considering their religious attachment to Jerusalem.
Unfortunately the British broke this promise in 1916 as a result of their "behind the scenes" agreement with France (and Russia). The Sykes-Picot agreement gave limited independence to a few Arab regions and created Mandates over the rest.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
(3 of 8)
It is easy to under why the Arabs felt betrayed when, after the surrender of Ottoman Turkey in 1917, their lands were divided up amongst Britain and France. There were various Arab revolts which were extinguished rather aggressively.
To rub salt in the Arabs' wounds, the Balfour Declaration was announced in 1919, which declared that Britain supported the creation of a Jewish "homeland" in Palestine. This resulted in the beginning of organized immigration of Jews into Palestine.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
(4 of 8)
It should also be easy to understand Arab resentment of Jewish immigration. As more and more immigrants arrived, the deeper and deeper was Arab alarm.
Probably partly due to Jewish anti-Zionist warnings, the "King-Crane Commission" released a report in 1919 that advised AGAINST transforming Palestine into an entirely Jewish state. Its recommendation was the forming of "Greater Syria" British and French objections prevented the report from ever being published.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
(5 of 8)
This is really main cause of the problem and what most Westerners fail to understand but Palestinians will NEVER forget. The problem only grew worse as time passed, especially as the approach of WWII increased Jewish immigration dramatically. It was understandable that the Palestinians would associate Jewish immigration as another form of British colonialism.
Events leading up to WWII included violent acts committed by BOTH sides.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
(6 of 8)
This only served to widen the gap between Jews and Arabs living in Palestine and make peaceful solutions harder and harder.
The Peel Commission of 1937 did a good job of identifying the source of the problem but later attempts at finding a solution could only suggest partitioning Palestine into two states.
Once WWII began and the events of the Holocaust became known to the world, a desperate increase in immigration began (much of it illegal).
Methusela1956 3 years ago
(7 of 8)
No one should deny that the Jewish race had a right to exist and that Palestine was the logical place for them to escape to. But this should have never been at the expense of the indigenous population.
Most people believed then (as now) that a 2-state solution would never work. This is especially true when one side would have to give up almost half of their land. A multi-ethnic state might have worked but there was too much animosity on both sides by then.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
(8 of 8)
Whatever the solution may be in the future, both sides will have to agree that each side has a right to exist and make sacrifices in order to come to a mutually acceptable solution. We can never forget the horrible plight of the Jewish people but we should also make every effort to look at the problem from the Palestinian side as well.
Someone mentioned that these comments have strayed away from the original question but the question can't be answered without knowledge of the past.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
(1 of 8)
A lot of commenting is going on about events AFTER the 1948 declaration of the state of Israel. We need to step back and re-examine the events BEFORE the creation of Israel which is the root of the entire Palestine problem.
Simply put, the British promised the lands of the Middle East to the Arabs back in 1915 in order to encourage them to fight against Ottoman Turkey in WWI.
The British later claimed that the area of Palestine was excluded from these promised lands.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
Read my answer to Methusela on this.
No, the Muslim of Palestine are not Hitler they just didn't care about what he was doing. My
plagiarizing is bad form but I am not writing a paper. It is not dishonest as it reflects what has happened, often in my personal experience not the word of others.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
No. I am trying to say that this scared the Jews. It scared the Christians. It was considered a good thing by the Muslims and generally greeted well. I am trying to fight the lie that Muslim loved the Jews. That is the fabrication that hurt me and my friends.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
More propaganda that indicates your lack of knowledge. Look at the whole Ottoman Empire. Israel was only promised that land on one side of the the Jordan river. Please I will not give up my experiences for sake of this arguement . Israel did take more land in 1967. The declared land of the International City of Jerusalem which had been taken by Jordan, none of the East Jerusalem which was had many destroyed Jewish sites, against laws. And high land that was used to shoot at Israelis.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
aj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini, appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem by Sir Herbert Samuel the High Commissioner of British Mandatory Palestine in 1921, played a central role in introducing the ideology and tactics of the National Socialism of Adolf Hitler into the Arab World. In a career that spanned more than 5 decades, el-Husseini contributed to the development of Nazi style organizations in Arab capitals. If you don't believe it read up on a history written by an non-Muslim.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I think you had better read up on this. BTW, I was a Christian Palestinian, there were Jewish Palestinians, too. Not all Palestinians were Muslim. The Hitler alliance was not a lie. Look it up on the internet. If you notice my name, it is a Muslim name. Although I am not one, I was raised amongst them. I will not disclose my last name before marriage but it was more Arab than Christian.
There are many pictures of Hitler and the Grand Mufti together, enjoying a friendly chat.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Methusela...Jordan was already a State, Gaza was
Egypts. Jews were not taking more land until
1967. They were very tired of getting shot at from the Golan, it was high, they were low. I was with some friends hiking near Ramat Gan, the Palestinians shot at us,from a hill, maybe not to kill but to be playful, and to scare the hell out of us. We mistakenly wore some kibbuts like hats. As a non Muslim taking a bus through Afula or to Nazareth was scary.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
77ynck77: Well, we'd all love to hear how you think that could happen. :-)
Methusela1956 3 years ago
True, massacres were committed by both sides. Both sides share blame and both sides need to admit this. Then both sides can work towards peace.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
Jews that I know, do not deny the existence of Muslims in the area. They resent being told that the Holocaust didn't happen and that it was always a happy marriage between Jews and Muslims under Muslim rule. They resent being told they were not pushed out of their houses in Muslim countries. They resent the alliance and greeting of Hitler just before and during the years of the Holocaust. His agenda and theirs was clear.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I don't think any intelligent person can deny the Holocaust took place. Too much documentation and photos, which was done for the explicit purpose of countering any future claims that this didn't exist. Those that deny it took place or try to minimize the magnitude are fanatics or those who are brainwashed by them.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
rezasantorini: True, there were not many "happy marrigages" between ANY people living under Ottoman (Muslim) rule. Ayone who was Muslim got favored treatment and often abused this priviledge at the expense of their non-Muslim (Jewish and Crhistian) neighbors. Turkish rulers were ingenious in using this "divide and conquer" strategy to keep their subjects from uniting & rising up against them. When uprisings DID take place, they were brutally & mercilessly put down, not just in Middle East.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
I do not say Jews aren't overly reactive to their own protection in Israel. I don't dismiss
SOME of this. I just believe that 1967 was the direct consequence of what happened to them earlier, including the Muslim reaction to the mandate, Hitler and the formation of the state. As a citizen of the area, who experience family death, threats and such, along with tales of earlier years from family and friends of all religions I do have an opinion. My quotes are meant as a quick "tactic"
rezasantorini 3 years ago
rezasantorini: It's true that the Mufti allied his followers with Hitler during WWII and encouraged Nazi influence in the Middle East. But this was mainly in the French Mandate areas of Syria and Lebanon as a result of the peace treaty between the Nazis and the Vichy French goventment. The only Muslims to actually form fighting units were the Muslim "Bosniaks" that were part of fascist Coratia. They didn't target Jews though, they mainly fought local partisans.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
If the Muslims all over their 22 countries plus Iran (over a billion, today) are angry at the Israelis and Jews (about 14.5 million)and threaten that they are going to damage them, don't you think that during the period of Nazi Germany and directly afterward this scared the Jews. Please remember that most Jewish families, unlike the Muslim diaspora and the Pals, were directly effected by the Nazis.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Regarding Mid-East alliances with Hitler:
"In January 1941, underground Jewish militia "LEHI" (AKA Stern Gang), whose most famous member was Yitzak Shamir, proposed alliance between itself & Nazis, expressing sympathy with "German conception" of a "New Order in Europe," & offering to cooperate with Germany in forming Jewish state "on a totalitarian basis which will establish relations with German Reich" & protect Nazi interests in Middle East. (see Chomsky, The Fateful Triangle, 95)"
Methusela1956 3 years ago
The Jews did not really live peacefull with the Muslims...they lived carefully, as they do in Iran today. Islam has never loved their Jews, any more than Saddam loved Iran and Kuwait.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Your sarcasm detector broken?
demonx406 3 years ago
There was no peace...my family is from Bethlehem. The Mufti invited and encouraged the Nazi's to Jerusalem. My uncle, a Christian was
killed in an attack on Jews in Hebron before WW2. Please Yirmey, do not waste my time. You do not know nor understand truth. You live in a far distant past. Not the last Century. The occupation is a result of the hate since the legal formation of the state and the hate during WW2 and before.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Israel is legal was attacked finally blew its wad in 1967. Hitler is a fact of the Jewish peoples history. just made them want the Balfour promises pushed along after years after the end of the Ottoman Empire. Italy does not have the history of killing Jews as did the Muslims in the area of Jerusalem Europe in general did not invite the Nazis The Mufti welcomed him, a hero, as did Muslims. read history. Mussalini was not a hero to Italy. Still isn't. Can we say that of Muslims?
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Please, I am through with this discussion. You have no understanding of my life in the area and my experience, you only know you hate the Jews.
I am a Christian Arab, a Palestinian and I hate neither. They were all my friends...but Jews have a right and Muslims would not allow them to live in peace. And yes, many Muslims encouraged the Nazis, including the Mufti of Jerusalem. He did not like the Christians either. He encouraged all religions to fight and Muslim dominance.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
But accept the fact that Jews always lived in the area. The Ottoman Empire lost the land, Balfour mandated some won land to the Jews...Jordan got some, so did Egypt so did Syria, etc. The Muslims wanted even more.
After many attacks on the State of Israel once declared, in 1967 the Jews finally, with patience stretched and anger over the breaking of the promise for an International City of Jerusalem that they agreed to under Jordan control, they finally hit back and hard.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
rezasantorini: Jews may have always lived in Palestine but were NOT a majority. The Ottoman Empire lost the land because Arabs were PROMISED that land if they fought the Turkish army during WWI. Sykes-Picot agreement broke that promise and after Balfour Declaration, Jewish immigration increased at a rate which alarmed Arab population. Read 1937 Peel Commission Report. Israel was declared on a land partitioned almost 50-50 to benefit a Jewish MINORITY against the wishes of an Arab MAJORITY.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
Yes, the Arabs were alarmed at the Jewish immigration. Jews were alarmed at Hitler being welcomed and so on. The land was not partitioned 50/50...much more was given to Muslims and rightly so, they were a majority. Some land was even declared International, such as part of Jerusalem. Muslims never accepted Jews having any land, hence the first War and them being barred from their holy sites, let alone the destruction of some sacred places, including ancient burial grounds and markers.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
rezasantorini: I don't think the issue was Arabs not allowing Jews any land. They were being flooded with Jewish immigrants (legal and illegal) which was intended to create a Jewish MAJORITY that would certainly vote to declare all of Palestine (originally including Trans-Jordan) as an Israeli state. British (and UN?) tried offering a paritioning of Palestine into 2 states, which the Arabs rejected. I support the right of Jews to exist as a people and state but not at the expense of others.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
Much of Jordan is part of the partition. Gaza was given to Egypt. Muslims did not accept this. I think some of Syria was also part of the partition. Not accepting Israel and starting a war on their day of Independence in '48 was just the first of a few wars. 1967 was just Jews reaction to the attacks plus, the conditions at the Mount and the Wall that was suppose to be International. Under Jordan with the Israelis in agreement, they trusted the newly formed Jordan. A mistake.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
You must be kidding. The Mufti of Jerusalem and the Nazi were buddies...
You are nonsensical. Jews have lived in the area since long before Muhammed flew to visit.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I really don't know which one of your comments to reply to. And, I am so angry at Bin Laden and the lack of criticism from the "world" that it only proves my point, Israel may be backed by the Western world but Gaza is backed by the Billion or so Muslims. Poor Gaza.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
I don't know about others. But, I'm more concerned about losing our own freedoms/borders here in the U.S.. It's a shame that most of our elected politicians have taken a back seat to this. There will always be problems in the Middle East region since there is oil and religious extremists there.
june201955 3 years ago
Jimmy Carter is the ONLY person in America than can publically critcize Israel. if he wasn't a former President, he'd be censored like everybody else.
OverdueChange 3 years ago
As long as the U.S. is dictated to by AIPAC, nothing will change. Many people deny that this is happening. But if it's not, then how come almost all American politicans always try to appease AIPAC? How come it's pratically illegal to publically criticize Israel in the U.S.? But Israel can debate about this w/no problem?
OverdueChange 3 years ago
What is wrong with protecting Israel..? It needs our protection...especially since it is the only safety net for Jews. Muslims have 22 states as safety nets and can hide amongst the billions of Islamic followers, Christians have billions. Why can't Jews have a safety net, you saw what the world did to them in Hitlers day and the Muslims even allied with them. They Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and he were Pals. Forgive my pun.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
The only wayout to this dilema is for isreal to draw back to the 1948 border,give the Aqsa mosk and it's area to the Palestinians and give the right to return home to who ever wants to of the Palestinians.
benbees2002 3 years ago
The conflict will end when the Occupation of Palestine will end!
support 1 state solution Jews and Muslims equal rights where Jews can live in any area and the Palestinian refugees can return
PLO2008 3 years ago
There are so few Jews in this world it is not a suprise that few support them, especially when Islam controls the worlds oil supply and out number the Jews ... 14.5 Million Jews world wide. Billion plus Muslims and an equal amount of Christians, many who only care about the price of oil and supported Hitler because they didn't think he'd do the damage he did. We cannot be that stupid again.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Praise for Hitler among Arabs did not vanish after the war. In 1965, a Moroccan commentator on Middle East affairs wrote this in the French magazine Les Temps Modernes: "A Hitlerian myth is being cultivated on a popular level. Hitler's massacre of the Jews is eulogized. It is even believed that Hitler did not die. His arrival is longed for.''
rezasantorini 3 years ago
In mid-2001, an Egyptian columnist wrote in the government-sponsored Al-Akhbar: ''Thank you, Hitler, of blessed memory, who on behalf of the Palestinians avenged in advance against the most vile criminals on Earth.'' Two months later, Egypt's Press Syndicate awarded this writer its highest distinction.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Pro-German parties and youth movements attuned to the trappings of National-Socialism sprouted in Syria, Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt. Even Nazi slogans were translated into Arabic. A Mideast song popular in the late 1930s crooned: ''No more Monsieur, no more Mister. In Heaven Allah, on Earth Hitler.'' The Füehrer himself was even Islamicized under the new name of Abu Ali.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
if Israel WANTs to have Peace then its has to make AMENDS and Peaceful SETTLEMENT!!! its not
GOOD to BULLDOZE your way in JUST because the TORAH or GOD says so.....even MIGHTY RIVERS change its COURSES countless times in 2000years!!!
the ALMIGHTY is SO MAGNIFICIENT
so WHY think that GOD RESIDES or "RULE" from the HOLYLANDS!!!!i
if PEACE is unAchievable
the ESCALATION of HATRED will GO ON maybe to the Total Destruction of the MIDDLEEAST~!!!! Thus DEBUNKING 3 MAJOR RELIGIONS as 'MAN MADE'!!!
cradle2light 3 years ago
(3 of 3)
Israel should not just go back to their 1967 borders, they should go back to their 1948 borders. Palestine can offer (dual) citizenship to any Jewish settlements within their borders or the Israelis living there can re-settle in Israeli lands (at Israeli expense). Is this realistic? Probably not but something similar will have to happen if there is to be peace.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
Jeursalem was to be an International city...Jordan broke that UN arrangement and then tore up the East Jerusalem Jewish holy sites.
How can that be fixed...oh yes, Muslims also built another Mosque on the Mount, destroying Jewish antiquities. Regarding the 1948 borders, they were unacceptable to the Muslims they attacked Israel immediately after they were founded.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
(2 of 3)
Palestinians will have to accept the fact that they have lost most of their land, even though it was unjustly "partitioned" when Israel declared its statehood. Israel will have to trade "land for peace" with the Palestinians, just like they did with Egypt, Jordan and Syria (and others?).
Methusela1956 3 years ago
(1 of 3)
Peace in Israel/Palestine IS possible if both sides want it bad enough. It will take painful sacrifices on both sides.
Methusela1956 3 years ago
I wont make it long here. I will only summarize my point of view over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by saying this:
There will be peace because i am an optimistic person despite the ugliness of reality. We all know Palestine was chosen by Alexander Hertz the founder of Zionism for his people and he knew very well he would have the general public to support him as that land was referenced in the bible as the land of Jewish. the US was glad because now the Middles East was becoming unstable
soufianDEMOS 3 years ago
i believe that the destabilization of the middle east is controlled by arms profit. the U.S and Britain new that when Israel was put into Palestine that it would be a powder keg for many generations and corporate profits would soar just as they have with the invasion of Iraq and all U.S foreign involvement. it always is and will always be about greed and profit. i see no peace in sight.
thirdbornfilms 3 years ago
Pals constantly say they are ok is sacrificing their kids for Allah. They cry the take pictures of the bodies for the papers, they photograph the blood but they then happily train the next one of the glories of sacrifice and how to wear a bomb .
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Living in a home does not make it yours as the Jews learned in Arab lands where they were told to leave as punishment for Israel being declared. Maybe Gaza is punishment for that.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Yes, they declared a State and upset the Arabs. The fact that some of the Arabs allied with Hitler had no effect? Maybe Jews who lived in the area, like Hebron, may have a little aggressive after suffering the Holocaust. How about the fact that they had been promised the land by the Balfour delclaration. had you never heard of all the massacres against the Jews and driven from their homes? None...although I am not a Jew, my family is from Bethlehem. We know the history.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Which Arabs allied with Hitler exactly? Arabs were busy trying to free their own lands from Western occupation.Those who gave the promise did not own the land to start with. Which massacres and which Jews were driven from their homes? Back then, most Arab countries had Jewish citizens, living in peace with their Muslim & Christian neighbors.The truth is Palestinians and the whole MENA region was made to pay for the mistreatment of Jews in Europe. I hope you get your history rechecked.
hraslan 3 years ago 2
Those in Palestine. This is known by the whole world, except by people like you who refuse to face the truth. Yes, those who gave the land were legal owners and had taken it from the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Jews were mandated part of it. Many countries got a part..including TransJordan, now Jordan. Look up the massacre at Hebron in the 30's as a small example. My Christian uncle was killed
by Muslims.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
Look up the Mufti of Jerusalem.
rezasantorini 3 years ago
You are wrong. The ottoman Empire ended and Britain had control. 90% was given to Muslims,all east of the Jordan. West of the JOrdan there was 10% and the arid and unihabitable land was given to the Jews...
rezasantorini 3 years ago