coming from a tradition martial arts background myself I can admit that most martial-arts like this will drill pointless techniques. Not saying traditionalist can't fight, but techniques like these demonstrated will never work in a real fight situation, because:
1. When someone punches you they will never leave their arm out in this manner for you to do your 8th dan jack chan 6 move combo.
2. There are not many people that fall like this guy, unless they are disabled.
i'm a ninjutsu practitioner myself and although i do recognize some of these techniques its obvious that they are very poorly done. i can understand why some of you would consider it bullshit. i was fortunate enough to find one of the few people out there that teaches TRUE Ninjutsu and not just steal your money. if your actually be taught by a true instructor and follower of the art then i can assure you that Ninjutsu is ANYTHING but bullshit and useless.
@Breadon92 It's about time someone else said this... But for demonstrative purposes, it's pretty hard to show the visceral nature of most ninjutsu techniques.
@ReasonableDoubt4 indeed thats true. i'm very passionate and serious about Ninjutsu. before i got into it one martial art was as good as any other. then i stumbled upon my Ninjutsu club and i've decided that this is the art i want to learn. but your right in the fact that while it's being shown in a demonstration it's hard to imagine how brutal it can be. a Ninja is a warrior of perseverence and endurance. a person who despite being outmanned will face imposible odds to protect those he loves.
as a martial artist i find these dude offensive v_v
these is basic self defence we learnt in standard 7 be4 high school all of us at school were tought these moves and mre...we were tought how to use canes to fight...how to disable ppl with weapons...how to usenerve attacks v_v
ok i as a bujinkan practitioner for over 5 years can say its basicaly jujutsu u guys. the three little ninja schools tht r there r real but their techniques r just bogus. i bet u hatsumi just added some crap in their. like the backhand sword draw.
Of course this is a demonstration but I don't think it's so easy to parry a good hook or worst a knife with the hand... However good the close range combat
@ParkFight: It's sure isn't easy to block a hook; a big haymaker like this bloke is throwing, yes, that's easy, but a close-range hook... no, really not. Likewise a knife; people don't use the strong, committed attacks of the dojo, but rather nervy quick-jabs followed by a full-on charge; they're either darting in and out or literally flinging themselves on you.
It's a very good discussion on Ninjutsu though, and a good demonstration; if only the sound quality were better.
@Arteanor: It's a good discussion of modern Ninjutsu in that what he's doing is visibly Taijutsu as taught in authentic Bujinkan classes. Likewise, the discussion is consistent with the philosophy and theory.
I don't know where you get the idea that there's no evidence for combat techniques in Ninjutsu; since you're making the claim contrary to accepted opinion, the burden of proof is on you. What is your evidence that the historical Ninja did not practice combat?
slight problem, this "taijutsu" term has never been associated with the shinobi before takamatsu.
martial arts have never been associated with shinobi until takamatsu either...
accepted opinion? that depends on whose opinion we are talking about, by popular opinion? and of which timeframe? or are you telling me that the burden of proof changes? sounds like a moving goalpost to me...
@Arteanor: How am I moving the goalpost? I'm shifting burden of proof; the accepted opinion is that the ninja did practice combat skills. There is a wealth of evidence, from artifacts, armour and weapons to writings and oral tradition. You are claiming that the Ninja did not practice combat skills, which seems a bizarre claim. Therefore, the onus is on you to prove it; if you do so, and I then argue the toss, that would be shifting the goalpost. As it is, you're equivocating; prove your claim.
@Arteanor: Don't play the logical fallacy game with me; that is in itself a fallacy, while you continue to equivocate.
Takamatsu's students are not the only people claiming Ninjutsu includes combat martial arts; that statement is patently untrue, as you can see for yourself by just googling "Ninjutsu" and seeing how many clubs there are claiming ninja heritage.
If you say that shinobi were trained soldiers, you are ipso facto saying that Ninjutsu included combat training.
so you are saying that hatsumi is as legitimate as frank dux, ron duncan, kawakami jinichi, david haliva, christa jacobsen?
i guess i can agree to that, they are all fakes.
you seem to miss that i said NINJUTSU, as in the skills of shinobi didn't contain martial arts. not shinobi themselves who being soldiers would obviously have to enter combat at some point.
combat skills are separate ryu...
and if you are ever so correct, where is the evidence i asked for? should be easy.
@Arteanor: May I ask what experience you have of martial arts, to judge between Hatsumi and Dux?
You continue to persist in demanding evidence for what is the general opinion, while refusing to provide evidence to the contrary. Back to my initial point; the burden of proof is on you to prove that combat training is no part of ninjutsu, not vice-versa. I have already cited the extensive evidence that is available to you; artefacts, writings, oral tradition. Where is your evidence, sir?
@Arteanor: The evidence for ninjutsu as a martial art is common knowledge. You expect me to do the google searches that would take you all of two minutes to prove what we both already know, that the standard opinion is that Ninjutsu is a martial art? Why not ask me to prove that the sky is blue? Likewise, the searches to find evidence of artifacts and writings; you won't google it, why would you follow a link?
You name three scrolls. Have they been translated into English, do you have a link?
@Arteanor: "Common knowledge?" Prove that it is not so; you've made a claim against the prevalent understanding, given me the names of Japanese scrolls but no links to English translations, equivocated your position and ducked direct questions. I am not the one offering a story; you are. Your claim is in direct contradiction to the evidence and unless you can demonstrate otherwise in short order, I'll have to call you argument pure personal incredulity.
@Arteanor: And you've ducked the question regarding your martial arts experience; on what basis are you able to observe different martial artists and say whether their style is or is not authentic?
hold up the information we DO have, the stuff we know about HISTORICAL SHINOBI.... and compare that story to the one told by takamatsu and his ilk...
if you want to throw out all of the confirmed history, you better have some evidence and a damn good reason why your story is still valid in the face of contradictory evidence.
@Arteanor: What relevance does your experience have? Why, everything; if you have no training, have never handled the weapons or studied the techniques, then you have no basis to question what is authentic combat method and what is not.
@Arteanor: I've actually looked up the scrolls you cited. Bansenshukai derives from Sun Tzu's Art of War, a book of strategy and philosophy; it does not explicitly support your case, although it does posit a link between the Koga and Iga traditions. There are no translations of Ninpiden that I could find, but a great many marital art clubs using the name and so presumably based on the principles therein. Shininki is a book of strategy, again giving no explicit support for your argument.
the genbukan website ninpo org has them all, and then some....
the reason i used the 3 i did, is because they are specifically about the nature of ninjutsu.
they are also our resource for the term ninjutsu. before them if i remember correctly there is only mention of shinobi being used in samurai conflict, FOR ESPIONAGE,,,,
seems you are hung up on some things written during the ninja craze... while i am referring to confirmed historical information...
Ninjas where traineds as the anit-samuri doing things that the samuri could not....iv been training in ninjutsu for 20 years i highly recomemend it to people who would like to learn selfdefence
you have most definitely have NOT been learning ninjutsu, since ninjutsu ISNT A MARTIAL ART.
to back that up, i will cite the following scrolls, Bansenshukai, Ninpiden, Shoninki,.... none of which mention even a single kanji about combat techniques...
but i tell you what, ill humor you, what ryu, and ha do you study? who were your teachers, and who taught them? have you verified their lineages yourself? if so, how ?
@Creationsofmyown Not exactly. Samurai means "One who Serves" a Samurai's life was to serve his emperor! A Ninja would only serve a war lord or emperor if it served his agenda to do so, and only for a price, not out of honor or sense of duty. They served only the needs and well being of their clans and villages. Not the same ideals as a Samurai. They also did not fight with the same sets of rules as the Samurai and that is why they were so much more effective in combat.
when did ninjutsu start? you are talking about 150 years like its the 500 before it.... and getting all the info from the end of those 650 and calling it history... its just not the case...
ninjutsu was the skills of espionage a scout/spy would use to get in, stay in, get what he needed, and get out. be that intel, sabotage, whatever...
that is precisely what the historical record says... prove me wrong?
@Creationsofmyown The amount of documentation and research that I would have to put at this point to do justice proving you wrong would not be worth my time as are you not worth my time. Forget I said anything as it seems that nothing anyone says to you whether backed by fact or not seems to sway your opinion, so why bother! There is one thing I have learned in my 43 years on this planet and that is that closed minded people tend to stay closed minded no matter what.
if you need to brand me as closed minded, instead of acknowledging your own closed minded acceptance of takamatsu at his word.... what leg does your argument possibly have to stand on,,,,
i can do my own research, just refer me to the documents... i have already referred you to several...
btw, closed minded people dismiss people as unimportant, especially when they cant prove what they are saying... like you.
open minded people cite sources and ask for citations. try it out
this idea of samurai with rules is incredibly new school...
i suspect you also greatly misunderstand the ideals of bushido, even tho that is NOT a historically relevant outlook,....
"were so effective in combat" ?? are you for real? did you forget again that ninjutsu still isnt a martial art... just because you say it is doesnt mean its true... and that goes for takamatsu too...
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Ninjas were actually trained in "Ryu's", or schools in around 2000BC. The last Ninja mission recorded was in 1853 when Sawamura Yasusuke attempted to infiltrate "black ships" under command of Commodore Perry. The Ninjas were farmers, entertainers, blacksmiths, carpenters, and everyday citizens under cover who did their work in secret. They learned different types of martial arts so they could carry out missions and not worry about encountering something they could not handle.
there is a definitive answer, it just isnt very popular... ninjutsu was a skillset, not a class/caste of people... it was possessed by samurai from he kamakura period onward...
we know this timeline because before this time the warfare in japan was of insufficient scale to make intelligence gathering a viable strategy.
no peasants, not assassins of samurai, just samurai that needed to know things, and went to extraordinary means to do so.
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Ninjitsu is derived from SHinto Monks that learnt self defence from visiting Taoist sages. They had to learn how to fight to protect not only themselves and others but also their art, all Japanese rituals to honour the dead are derived from Shinto monk. Shinto is very similar to taoism. Checkout your history of ancient Japan and China!!!
wow funornotfun, you're an idiot. that's as naive as saying you don't drive your car to work because you're not racing. I'm a member of the Bujinkan. Ninjutsu is the style of martial arts. It's the art of stealth "nin" stealth and "jutsu" art.... Only some ninja in the past were assassins.
@brucenatelee kunoichi didnt need strength to kill their targets, i believe kunoichi were 10X more dangerous than ninja because they were harder to spot, and harder to stop once theyve got u in their grasp, think about it, you have sex with some random girl, and OH SHIT, she stabs the fuck out of u, and u had no idea
buena propaganda, a pesar de que estudio Judo y Jujitsu es bueno copiar cosas de otras artes y poner atencion con sus tecnicas para implantarlas en el repertorio...
we arent arguing about what is better.... he thinks he studies ninjutsu,.. and refuses to acknowledge any of the obvious holes in his "grandmaster's" story
he also refuses to provide anything resembling proof that his school is what he claims it to be...
He need not prove anything,,,as he isn't the one wanting to prove things to everyone else... he is happy doing what he does...but questions those who sit there bad mouthing others about something they have no experience of or any real knowledge....
he doesnt need to prove it? then why even apply? if he was so happy he would never have applied at all.. he tried to get recognition and was exposed as a fake...
and just because my knowledge hurts your feeling doesnt mean its not there.... when you can refute anything i have said let me know... so far you havent denied any of my counterclaims.
and you still havent proven hatsumi to be legit and the way ur going you never will... even hatsumi couldnt prove it, but u can?
in part of empty-hands self defense it is like jujutsu in 20% or less. Ninjutsu uses vital and pressure points very much. If you have done jujutsu or judo for some time, it's easier to begin with ninjutsu, but ninjutsu fighting itself is like no other
that the difference between the application of the techniques between these schools is markedly pronounced. Especially techniques from the 3 Ninpo ryu-ha; these are usually only taught later, and are more advanced and difficult to apply because their goal is subtle, and the technique difficult to master. AS for clothing, THEY DID NOT WEAR BLACK, PROBABLY EVER! Not even when stalking through woods or something. If you do, you show more of a silhouette than if you wear browns, greens, dark blues.
name 1 person who has been granted menkyo kaiden in ANY of those "ninpo ryu-ha"....
there arent any people being graded in the menkyo system... none of the people hatsumi teaches can ever achieve any recognition from japan. the menkyo system is what hatsumi is claiming... but he doesnt give ranks in it... dont you think thats odd?
Ok Menkyo holders are: Oguri Sensei, Seno Sensei, Manaka Sensei, Nagato sensei and so on..all the Shihan and to be honest joining that Koryu board IS joining a club and I will dare say it.. because it being it or not in it doesn't make a bit of difference to skill.. Hatsumi doesn't really care..he applied..they wanted him to send his scrolls..he refused he asked them to come and have a look they refused so.that was that...How is it u know so much and have never actually visited the man yourself?
i dont think any of those people are named sensei... i asked for names... be so generous as to provide them... it would also help if you named the ryu they supposedly have menkyo in.
say what you want,... it still doesnt make you correct...
hatsumi denied access to the scrolls...
and regardless... once accepted by the NKS he wouldnt need the scrolls to prove his authenticity...
if i was applying to a "club".. i wouldnt send half an application... i also wouldnt do it 3 times...
@dorapha Well said... I'm not sure why this Creationofmyownselfimage kid doesn't just go to meet these people if he's so obsessed with ninjutsu and their achievements/skills .He gets his knowledge from the internet lol...he knows nothing.
because i shouldnt have to spend thousands of dollars buying into his crap to get 5th dan so i can go talk to him... hes not exactly going to book me an interview... he kicks out students who ask too much about the history...
then again hatsumi has intelligently moved far away from the word ninjutsu... he knows he cant back the claim... i would be doing the EXACT same thing in that spot...
@Creationsofmyown to talk to him u simply need to make an appointment and if he has time he will see u...thats it.. u do not need to spend all that much money as u put it for a conversation...many people visit him all the time...but u will need to conduct your conversation in Japanese..so if u don't speak the language arrange for an interpreter... he doesn't throw students out for asking about history come on..where do u get this crap from??
when he refused an answer to the Nihon kobudo shinkokai? and to his students?
he has thrown students out of the dojo for asking too much of the history...
the only way i could EVER accept this, would be to say " your out of the school, here is the proof you couldnt trust i had... show some faith next time"
@Creationsofmyown Antony who?? never heard of him... he will answer u provided u approach with respect and not an arsey attitude. There are many that come and ask the same questions and have been for the last 3 decades or so... as for what others say... I think tis best u go directly and deal with him rather than going by hearsay.. go and find out for yourself... but don't waste time commenting on something u have no first hand knowledge of..
so you think he suddenly has answers now? he refused them to the Nihon kobudo shinkokai when it benefitted himself to speak of it... how can i offer more incentive than he had when he refused them??
hatsumi wont answer these questions because he CANT
but here is the problem with your last line. we have no proof that HATSUMI has first hand knowledge of ninjutsu, so he shouldnt be saying anything about it either.
antony cumming, TSOAS2008 had 10 years in buj.when kicked.
@Creationsofmyown ...Right, when someone gets kicked out of the Buj and its very very rare...its because of some misconduct or for causing harm to others..and I mean direct harm as opposed to verbal crap...now if this guy was thrown out as u put it then there will have been more to it than what u may have been told. as for the NKS...they wanted to take away the scrolls to "test" them and he didn't want that.. as for u are there to find out for yourself and that is usually welcomed.
and then pointed out that the scrolls(bansenshukai, ninpiden, shoninki) say absolutely nothing about combat, and asked soke why his is the only one claimin ninjutsu to be a MA.
if your explanation is correct, then why didnt takamatsu include them when he was interviewed for the Bugei ryuha daijiten? the brd ONLY lists his claims as kuden.
it doesnt matter to me which of them is lying... but both cant be telling the truth... take ur pick.
@dorapha He has the Densho...but either way am not the one with doubts concerning all this so I am not going to waste time on it... The main interest I have is in training which after shopping around and training in various martial arts for 25 years I found one that rings true to my experiences in life... but put simply if Hatsumi sensei or Takamatsu sensei really made up all this stuff...they are bloody geniuses...kudos for them for achieving that...but why give someone else credit?
because takagi yoshin ryu + shinden fudo ryu + "the stuff i have learned here, and in china" isnt a very good way to market yourself....
im not sure if takamatsu built off the ninja craze, or started it... but i know he had NO CLUE what he was getting into... and look at where we are, i agree with you though, hatsumi is a solid MA, but that doesnt mean he cant be full of shit.
i heard the training was better in the 80s seems he toned it down lame if u ask me.
@Creationsofmyown Nah training is good... but a lot of people as usual want to do the fancy stuff so they tend to try and do what he is doing which negates the years of development he took to reach his level...so u get a lot of idiots trying to be like him in a short amount of time... as for the 80s..they were hard but training is still hard if u approach the right teachers. problem is the group is huge so u get a lot of crap along with it...its really down to finding a good teacher in the end.
That's true...they didn't wear black..they wore what was appropriate to blend in...usually like monks, actors, entertainers, even Samurai..The black stuff was from Kabuki plays and the like which became associated with the ninja.
Whatabout telling the truth ? this is KRAV MAGA recalled Ninjutsu. Just DO observe Masaaki Hatsumi moving, you'll clearly see the difference. Look for Daikomyosai in google's vids or in youtube's. Ninpo Ikkan.
nicerebound obviously doesn't know much about ninjutsu. Ninjutsu has existed..... in fact the last ninja Seiko Fujita died not too long ago. It's just that ninjutsu isn't what it's like today. Ninja's were usually lower classed samurai. That's why they trained in the same way....but differently. And that's why they were able to do task. Higher classed samurai wouldn't do. Now ninjutsu is still taught.... but ninjutsu isn't ancient ninjutsu anymore.
you might be thinking of the ronin. ronin were masterless samurai and were generaly seen as betrayers because when a samurai lost their master it was excpected of them to commit ritual suicide.
actually ninjas were'nt low class samurai they were more like anti samurai during fudule era in japans history ! samurai had armour and codes of honour ninjas had black cloth and well little if no honour at all !!
Ninja's did not wear black cloth back in feudal japan. They dressed like any other samurai. Walking around in black would be a dead giveaway that they're a ninja. Thus getting them killed. They weren't anti samurai. They WERE samurai themselves. Infact the skills they practice are similar to the skills practiced by Samurai.
a samurai could be a ninja but i think it would be more likely that the geisha in the local tavern is a ninja...or the old man selling cabbage in the market...or the beggar in the corner...or....well you get it. a samurai who nearly always is by his masters side wouldnt get much time to be a ninja
Ok. Listen up. Ninja were just PEOPLE IN VILLAGES. PERIOD. They assimilated in various groups for espionage purposes (spying + disinformation spreading), and for general living. They were all kinds of people, in all kinds of walks of life. As for the martial arts, since their roots lie partially with a few old samurai who decided to do things a little differently, a lot of their techniques are like samurai's. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, for example, trains in 6 schools of Jujutsu, and 3 of Ninpo.
Regardless of whether they wish to accept him or not...His techniques are incredible and if he is false...then it means he is more of a genius that if he wasn't false...Think about it why would a man create an amazing style and give someone else credit? That's just stupid...and the proof is in the pudding..Go to Japan train with the Shihan and u tell me if they are authentic or not.
"His techniques are incredible" thats an interesting opinion... i could make anything look incredible if my students dove when they were trained to...
there is nothing amazing about the bujinkan style... and as for giving others credit... that would be the only way to attempt to achieve recognition.. which hatsumi has failed all 3 times he has applied to the nihon kobudo shinkokai...
you havent done the homework on the start of hatsumi's training it seems...
So from the sounds of it u went to Japan trained with the Shihan and beat everyone up with one arm tied behind your back... Otherwise all your opinions are based on hearsay and watching a few youtube vids. .. I however went there trained with him and coming from an MMA background I wanted things proven to me and they were and I was not "trained" to react... As for Hatsumi's credibility failing to join a club doesn't mean U are not legit it simply means they don't want u to join.
@Creationsofmyown "I could make anything look incredible if my students dove when they were trained to..." -Hey tell me when to dive in and show me how you can make anything look incredible.I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and I'll let you pull off techniques on me. lol
"there is nothing amazing about the bujinkan style.." and this is why you know nothing about ninjutsu.
Bujinkan style? I wasn't aware there was a bujinkan style out there...you probably found this on the internet? :P
first, i already corrected your ASSUMPTION that the bujinkan in some way is or contains ninjutsu.
i said THE bujinkan style... it was a word in sentence,,,, it refers to the overall FEEL of the bujinkans set of techniques.
none of it is much different than what takamatsu already know, or could have easily have picked up in his travels... he WAS a prominent budoka, but that doesnt mean everything he says is true, and even the BRDJT says that all the buj has are kuden claims.
The main difference is the focus on adaptability, efficiency, and the generally quirky and "offbeat" style of movement, because it's composed of so many martial arts' moves and ways of moving. I mean, taking Bujinkan as an example again, you don't just get one school or ryu-ha being taught, you're getting 9. That's 9 different ways of performing each technique, each looking and feeling differently, with each having a different effect. Of course applications are limitless but I mean
i have a disagreement about number four. what if said target was gay? i mean the gay community is so open now they're everywhere (not saying its a bad thing just a fact) and it's acceptable now.
still a woman for best results. if its a lesbian then..well they like girls obviously...a gay guy...well they usually have more female friends then the average straight guy...and besides both gay men and women mingle in the same places as straight people do
note for the cat lovers:
this post took me almost 10 mins to write simply because my cat (Joker), who doesnt know how to sleep without a nice cuddle first, kept on interupting me
Ninjutsu is whatever we make of it today.... as long as we keep its history alive.
Ninjutsu artist that spend most of their day trying to argue whats ninjutsu and whats not. Miss the whole point of doing ninjutsu in the first place. It's an ART... not a fucking debate.
i would say there is no such things as MMA. It is impossible to mix martial arts and be a master at all of them. most MMA users are just shootfighters or jujutsukas. whatever arts you choose to mix your going to have more of something and less of something but to mix all arts efficiently is impossible
wow, asserting something makes it true. you have no proof. the obvious refutations are the numerous bjj black belts who are primarily known as vicious strikers in an mma context. whereas those who claim mastery in one art would have trouble in a multidimensional fight with any top level mma practitioner or competitor.
no proof eh? take a look at ufc and tell me how many MMA's there dont use a mix of kickboxing,wrestling and JJ...or shootfighting and kickboxing
is it a mixed martial art just because you have 2 martial arts in there even if they are pretty much the same thing? idsay its mixed when it contains atleast 5 MA's that have nothing to do with one another...but nevermind that
well then you are defining mixed incorrectly, and moreover, jiu jitsu and muay thai couldn't be more different, and yet master jiu jitsu players are often known in mma for their superior striking. ie, they did not purely rely on their original discipline, but branched out.
you said that one art master's are better than mma people who puportedly only develop shallow levels of skill in multiple arts, spreading themselves too thin as it were.
I gave the example of bjj black belts, theoretically masters in one art, who transition too mma, and manage to find even greater success in striking, while some prefer a ground and pound, western wrestling approach. so, these guys in mma don't always rely on their original mastery.
mma although the letters stand for mixed martial arts is not a martial art as such, its a sport, martial arts are survival arts, there are so many moves disallowed in mma that are the core of martial arts, ie strikes to joints, eyes, throat, genitals, the use and defence against weapons, awareness, fighting in the dark, developing your senses, street awareness, avoiding danger of being attacked in the first place.
I'm an MMA fighter myself..... HOWEVER!! Different situations called for different measures. I worked my ninjutsu training 400 years ago amongst 1000s of angry warriors. Read the history! MMA is great for two years and if someone is shooting at you with gun that's just silly, mixed martial artists are godlike people who could win wars.
while i agree we cant be sure of modern ninja lineage, the fact is ninjas were real and killed for a living for generations. that means something about it worked. it may be outdated (maybe) but dont say its shit because of MMA. just because we have modern guns now doesnt mean a bow and arrow is shit. it still will kill you. its all matter of context. id rather have a Beretta, but if a crossbow is all i have, thats better than nothing.
I always see the point to listen to ones opinion and to reflect on the good and bad points someone has, but you are just an idiot. I learned more from a ninjutsu teacher in one months time then I learned for several years in gyms or anyone else. so don't go around and bad mouth an entire style just because of your shit experience.
Because I could just as easily claim that I learned more from my BJJ instructor in four seconds than I did from my ninjutsu teacher in sixty-eight years. And it would carry as much weight as the statement you have just made.
Anecdotal evidence =/= appropriate evidence for a debate of this nature.
Fine, I'm superman, fuck you, I'm not debating something I actually care about with some jackass kid on myspace, so I want you to do something for me, Go home if your not there already lay down in bed and take a good half hour and go fuck yourself.
I beg to differ. People think that 1 style is always better than the other and in this case, ppl think MMA is better & ninjutsu is useless.. but think abt it.. if ninjas from the past japan used ninjutsu to survive, why cant ppl use it to stay alive now? Yes, u could argue that MMA is suited for street fights, but is there at all any prove that it is much more effective than ninjutsu? In my opinion, all kinds of martial arts r of the same kind and it depends on the user if he can use it well.
"all kinds of martial arts r of the same kind and it depends on the user if he can use it well"
Not true. A tai'chi practitioner cannot defend himself as well as a mixed martial artist. Styles are not all the same. This idea is retarded and was probably made up by pissed off TKD guys who realized their martial art sucks.
ok if you could chose who was to guide you through a dark alley with hobos lying around.
would it be:
A seasoned mma fighter who knocked out plenty of people, had his bones bruised /broken on a regular basis,runs20 miles a day and deadlifts a shitload
or some self proclaimed *NINJAAAAA* who did slowmotion techniques on his students his entirelife, who never had a broken nose, hell even never got REALLY punched or kicked at all?
No they're not. I'm an MMA fighter myself..... HOWEVER!!.... these older arts lasted for years and worked. Read the history! Lets put any MMA fighter onto a battle field 400 years ago amongst 1000s of angry warriors trying to take your head off. MMA not gonna last long at all. MMA is great for a one on one modern street scenario or in the ring/cage. I worked as a doorman for two years and used my ninjutsu training as much as I did the BJJ. Different situations called for different measures.
coming from a tradition martial arts background myself I can admit that most martial-arts like this will drill pointless techniques. Not saying traditionalist can't fight, but techniques like these demonstrated will never work in a real fight situation, because:
1. When someone punches you they will never leave their arm out in this manner for you to do your 8th dan jack chan 6 move combo.
2. There are not many people that fall like this guy, unless they are disabled.
adamtang88 8 months ago
good vid ,despite the crappy sound !
QuanYin71 1 year ago
BBD bullshit.
kenbigley 1 year ago
i'm a ninjutsu practitioner myself and although i do recognize some of these techniques its obvious that they are very poorly done. i can understand why some of you would consider it bullshit. i was fortunate enough to find one of the few people out there that teaches TRUE Ninjutsu and not just steal your money. if your actually be taught by a true instructor and follower of the art then i can assure you that Ninjutsu is ANYTHING but bullshit and useless.
Breadon92 1 year ago
@Breadon92 It's about time someone else said this... But for demonstrative purposes, it's pretty hard to show the visceral nature of most ninjutsu techniques.
ReasonableDoubt4 1 year ago
@ReasonableDoubt4 indeed thats true. i'm very passionate and serious about Ninjutsu. before i got into it one martial art was as good as any other. then i stumbled upon my Ninjutsu club and i've decided that this is the art i want to learn. but your right in the fact that while it's being shown in a demonstration it's hard to imagine how brutal it can be. a Ninja is a warrior of perseverence and endurance. a person who despite being outmanned will face imposible odds to protect those he loves.
Breadon92 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Breadon92 funny story.
the art in this video isn't ninjutsu.
way back in the 50's takamatsu was frustrated no young people wanted to learn kukishin ryu that he had learned, kodokan judo was VERY popular.
so he sought to increase the curriculum by adding kata from 'karate todejutsu' (since shortend to karate).
now he had a kukishin karate hybrid, and he started refering to it as ninpo.
kukishin ryu was not pleased. so he made up Toda Shinryuken teaching him togakure ryu as a kid...
Arteanor 9 months ago
Never EVER trust a bald man in a suite.
VEVeight 1 year ago
@VEVeight true..true...
ASWE323 1 year ago
yeah Ninjas Rock baby heheehe
omarskater 1 year ago
what you can learn from ninjutsu? to dissapear when you whife gets angry .. spy on your whife when she is out.. you can throw darts high accuracy
TheRogueMonk 1 year ago
look at the limp way the 'attacker' tries to stab Baldy in the EAR....total rubbish
larjanus 1 year ago
as a martial artist i find these dude offensive v_v
these is basic self defence we learnt in standard 7 be4 high school all of us at school were tought these moves and mre...we were tought how to use canes to fight...how to disable ppl with weapons...how to usenerve attacks v_v
RugbyPlayerVeripi 1 year ago
and a lot more v_v
RugbyPlayerVeripi 1 year ago
never leave the knife in the hand of the agressor
sigurd83 1 year ago
what bullshit
abcb1521 1 year ago
Ninjutsu is by no means ancient..?
lordtains 1 year ago
ok i as a bujinkan practitioner for over 5 years can say its basicaly jujutsu u guys. the three little ninja schools tht r there r real but their techniques r just bogus. i bet u hatsumi just added some crap in their. like the backhand sword draw.
thegodofpop1 1 year ago
Of course this is a demonstration but I don't think it's so easy to parry a good hook or worst a knife with the hand... However good the close range combat
ParkFight 1 year ago
@ParkFight: It's sure isn't easy to block a hook; a big haymaker like this bloke is throwing, yes, that's easy, but a close-range hook... no, really not. Likewise a knife; people don't use the strong, committed attacks of the dojo, but rather nervy quick-jabs followed by a full-on charge; they're either darting in and out or literally flinging themselves on you.
It's a very good discussion on Ninjutsu though, and a good demonstration; if only the sound quality were better.
JCLeSinge 1 year ago
@JCLeSinge
i dont understand how this can be misconstrued as a "very good discussion on ninjutsu"
considering that there is no evidence for any combat techniques being a part of ninjutsu...
did you have some historical evidence that you would like to share?
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor: It's a good discussion of modern Ninjutsu in that what he's doing is visibly Taijutsu as taught in authentic Bujinkan classes. Likewise, the discussion is consistent with the philosophy and theory.
I don't know where you get the idea that there's no evidence for combat techniques in Ninjutsu; since you're making the claim contrary to accepted opinion, the burden of proof is on you. What is your evidence that the historical Ninja did not practice combat?
JCLeSinge 1 year ago
@JCLeSinge
slight problem, this "taijutsu" term has never been associated with the shinobi before takamatsu.
martial arts have never been associated with shinobi until takamatsu either...
accepted opinion? that depends on whose opinion we are talking about, by popular opinion? and of which timeframe? or are you telling me that the burden of proof changes? sounds like a moving goalpost to me...
have you actually READ the scrolls ?
bansenshukai, ninpiden, shoninki. educate yourself
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor: How am I moving the goalpost? I'm shifting burden of proof; the accepted opinion is that the ninja did practice combat skills. There is a wealth of evidence, from artifacts, armour and weapons to writings and oral tradition. You are claiming that the Ninja did not practice combat skills, which seems a bizarre claim. Therefore, the onus is on you to prove it; if you do so, and I then argue the toss, that would be shifting the goalpost. As it is, you're equivocating; prove your claim.
JCLeSinge 1 year ago
@JCLeSinge
and you still havent shown who it is accepted by, and why it should be...
especially since the ONLY group claiming it are takamatsu's students,
i have shown that physical evidence of historical ninjutsu exists, you have yet to provied a shred of evidence to show martial components...
you are also making a strawman, i never said they didnt fight. i SAID that fighting skills are not a part of ninjutsu,
you do know shinobi were soldiers (aka samurai) right? of course the trained
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor: Don't play the logical fallacy game with me; that is in itself a fallacy, while you continue to equivocate.
Takamatsu's students are not the only people claiming Ninjutsu includes combat martial arts; that statement is patently untrue, as you can see for yourself by just googling "Ninjutsu" and seeing how many clubs there are claiming ninja heritage.
If you say that shinobi were trained soldiers, you are ipso facto saying that Ninjutsu included combat training.
JCLeSinge 1 year ago
@JCLeSinge
so you are saying that hatsumi is as legitimate as frank dux, ron duncan, kawakami jinichi, david haliva, christa jacobsen?
i guess i can agree to that, they are all fakes.
you seem to miss that i said NINJUTSU, as in the skills of shinobi didn't contain martial arts. not shinobi themselves who being soldiers would obviously have to enter combat at some point.
combat skills are separate ryu...
and if you are ever so correct, where is the evidence i asked for? should be easy.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor: May I ask what experience you have of martial arts, to judge between Hatsumi and Dux?
You continue to persist in demanding evidence for what is the general opinion, while refusing to provide evidence to the contrary. Back to my initial point; the burden of proof is on you to prove that combat training is no part of ninjutsu, not vice-versa. I have already cited the extensive evidence that is available to you; artefacts, writings, oral tradition. Where is your evidence, sir?
JCLeSinge 1 year ago
@JCLeSinge
i didnt say that... you did... you refer to the "other people " claiming ninjutsu to be a martial art....
you put him in that category, not me.
back to your attempted diversion, negatives cannot be proven.
you cant even prove that santa doesnt exist...
that said, there is NO evidence to support the claim that ninjutsu is a martial art, i have named 3 scrolls, you have named ZERO.
you havent cited a thing, you simply said something exists, sans evidence of course.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor: The evidence for ninjutsu as a martial art is common knowledge. You expect me to do the google searches that would take you all of two minutes to prove what we both already know, that the standard opinion is that Ninjutsu is a martial art? Why not ask me to prove that the sky is blue? Likewise, the searches to find evidence of artifacts and writings; you won't google it, why would you follow a link?
You name three scrolls. Have they been translated into English, do you have a link?
JCLeSinge 1 year ago
@JCLeSinge
common knowledge?
i asked for historical evidence. you cant do it, because the claim is bogus...
it was a part of the ninjacraze's made up history... its never been a fact.
you were given the names because they are EASY to find under those names.
why can't you show me any historical evidence for something that's knowledge is so common??
as to my experience, i dont see what relevance it has to the contents of 17th century scrolls...
authenticity cant be determined in the dojo.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor: "Common knowledge?" Prove that it is not so; you've made a claim against the prevalent understanding, given me the names of Japanese scrolls but no links to English translations, equivocated your position and ducked direct questions. I am not the one offering a story; you are. Your claim is in direct contradiction to the evidence and unless you can demonstrate otherwise in short order, I'll have to call you argument pure personal incredulity.
JCLeSinge 1 year ago
@Arteanor: And you've ducked the question regarding your martial arts experience; on what basis are you able to observe different martial artists and say whether their style is or is not authentic?
JCLeSinge 1 year ago
@JCLeSinge continued.
that would be preposterous...
anyone can judge an art to be authentic or not...
hold up the information we DO have, the stuff we know about HISTORICAL SHINOBI.... and compare that story to the one told by takamatsu and his ilk...
if you want to throw out all of the confirmed history, you better have some evidence and a damn good reason why your story is still valid in the face of contradictory evidence.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor: What relevance does your experience have? Why, everything; if you have no training, have never handled the weapons or studied the techniques, then you have no basis to question what is authentic combat method and what is not.
JCLeSinge 1 year ago
@JCLeSinge
im not referencing my experience.
you seem to have a problem with words not meaning what you want them to mean...
how it fares in combat has absolutely NOTHING to do with its authenticity.
this is a question of facts, my training doesnt change the meaning of scrolls written hundreds of years ago.
i have given examples of manuals on ninjutsu/ ninpo (i wonder if you know they arent the same thing...)
you are claiming there is MORE to ninjutsu, PROVE IT, or stop wasting my time!
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor: I've actually looked up the scrolls you cited. Bansenshukai derives from Sun Tzu's Art of War, a book of strategy and philosophy; it does not explicitly support your case, although it does posit a link between the Koga and Iga traditions. There are no translations of Ninpiden that I could find, but a great many marital art clubs using the name and so presumably based on the principles therein. Shininki is a book of strategy, again giving no explicit support for your argument.
JCLeSinge 1 year ago
@JCLeSinge
the genbukan website ninpo org has them all, and then some....
the reason i used the 3 i did, is because they are specifically about the nature of ninjutsu.
they are also our resource for the term ninjutsu. before them if i remember correctly there is only mention of shinobi being used in samurai conflict, FOR ESPIONAGE,,,,
seems you are hung up on some things written during the ninja craze... while i am referring to confirmed historical information...
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor What is the difference between Ninja and Shinobi?
NOTE: I would love to see a ninja movie without the word "Ninja" in the title.
brucenatelee 1 year ago
@brucenatelee
shinobi is a term that dates back to atleast 800 bce.
ninja is a much more modern term.
the only difference is when they were used.
as for movies... you should check out the old japanese ones... "shinobi no mono" comes to mind.
and i think that was either57 or the 60's cant remember atm.
Arteanor 1 year ago
many people will laugh when they herd about even the word Ninja, that shows how silent they are in famous.
why so many people think that ninjas a hired killer ?
shadeshido 1 year ago
i like how the semi bald guy suddenly becames a secret agent
cocabanz 1 year ago
nice to see Andy Grant getting whopped
top bloke and good friend .
keep up the training silver fox or my kickboxing will keep you at legs length away ;-) kind regards stu
realisticmotorsport1 1 year ago
Ninjas where traineds as the anit-samuri doing things that the samuri could not....iv been training in ninjutsu for 20 years i highly recomemend it to people who would like to learn selfdefence
wasne12 2 years ago 3
incorrect. SHINOBI WERE SOLDIERS, (AKA SAMURAI)
you have most definitely have NOT been learning ninjutsu, since ninjutsu ISNT A MARTIAL ART.
to back that up, i will cite the following scrolls, Bansenshukai, Ninpiden, Shoninki,.... none of which mention even a single kanji about combat techniques...
but i tell you what, ill humor you, what ryu, and ha do you study? who were your teachers, and who taught them? have you verified their lineages yourself? if so, how ?
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown Not exactly. Samurai means "One who Serves" a Samurai's life was to serve his emperor! A Ninja would only serve a war lord or emperor if it served his agenda to do so, and only for a price, not out of honor or sense of duty. They served only the needs and well being of their clans and villages. Not the same ideals as a Samurai. They also did not fight with the same sets of rules as the Samurai and that is why they were so much more effective in combat.
reginaninja 1 year ago
@reginaninja - sigh- no... no no no no no....
when did ninjutsu start? you are talking about 150 years like its the 500 before it.... and getting all the info from the end of those 650 and calling it history... its just not the case...
ninjutsu was the skills of espionage a scout/spy would use to get in, stay in, get what he needed, and get out. be that intel, sabotage, whatever...
that is precisely what the historical record says... prove me wrong?
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown The amount of documentation and research that I would have to put at this point to do justice proving you wrong would not be worth my time as are you not worth my time. Forget I said anything as it seems that nothing anyone says to you whether backed by fact or not seems to sway your opinion, so why bother! There is one thing I have learned in my 43 years on this planet and that is that closed minded people tend to stay closed minded no matter what.
reginaninja 1 year ago
@reginaninja
if you need to brand me as closed minded, instead of acknowledging your own closed minded acceptance of takamatsu at his word.... what leg does your argument possibly have to stand on,,,,
i can do my own research, just refer me to the documents... i have already referred you to several...
btw, closed minded people dismiss people as unimportant, especially when they cant prove what they are saying... like you.
open minded people cite sources and ask for citations. try it out
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@reginaninja
this idea of samurai with rules is incredibly new school...
i suspect you also greatly misunderstand the ideals of bushido, even tho that is NOT a historically relevant outlook,....
"were so effective in combat" ?? are you for real? did you forget again that ninjutsu still isnt a martial art... just because you say it is doesnt mean its true... and that goes for takamatsu too...
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
god damn fix the audio
ryantube180 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Ninjas were actually trained in "Ryu's", or schools in around 2000BC. The last Ninja mission recorded was in 1853 when Sawamura Yasusuke attempted to infiltrate "black ships" under command of Commodore Perry. The Ninjas were farmers, entertainers, blacksmiths, carpenters, and everyday citizens under cover who did their work in secret. They learned different types of martial arts so they could carry out missions and not worry about encountering something they could not handle.
SiRTim1000 2 years ago
thats not true at all...
there is a definitive answer, it just isnt very popular... ninjutsu was a skillset, not a class/caste of people... it was possessed by samurai from he kamakura period onward...
we know this timeline because before this time the warfare in japan was of insufficient scale to make intelligence gathering a viable strategy.
no peasants, not assassins of samurai, just samurai that needed to know things, and went to extraordinary means to do so.
Creationsofmyown 2 years ago
wow, good scammers
sengoku17 2 years ago 15
that right
humppaHanski92 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Ninjitsu is derived from SHinto Monks that learnt self defence from visiting Taoist sages. They had to learn how to fight to protect not only themselves and others but also their art, all Japanese rituals to honour the dead are derived from Shinto monk. Shinto is very similar to taoism. Checkout your history of ancient Japan and China!!!
TheTransfigured 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Corvette are you dumb?
Ninjas way was to secretly kill people in our day we call it Assassins!
FunOrNotFun 2 years ago
the attacker is not attacking for real or not offering any resistance at all so it isnt practical enough for reality
easyfreedom 2 years ago
you trained it and tried in reality? :)
Arphanel 2 years ago
wow funornotfun, you're an idiot. that's as naive as saying you don't drive your car to work because you're not racing. I'm a member of the Bujinkan. Ninjutsu is the style of martial arts. It's the art of stealth "nin" stealth and "jutsu" art.... Only some ninja in the past were assassins.
cwperkins83 2 years ago 3
Ninpo ikkan!
jedigandhi 2 years ago
muy bueno,,, como todo aprendiz de ninja siempre se olvida lo basico
maurixiom 2 years ago
Vanila Ice said to the turtles......Go ninja, go ninja Go.....
Taurus8763 2 years ago
You cant call that ninjutsu beacause your not training to be an assassin.
Just call it Bujinkan and stop tricking kids to learn how to be a ninja...
FunOrNotFun 2 years ago 2
Ninja doesn't mean assassin..
CorvetteBG 2 years ago 39
@CorvetteBG ninjas were purely assassins, what are u talking about?
kapoof2 1 year ago
@kapoof2 I'm talking about what the word means; AKA Ninja = Stealth.. I wasn't talking about what they are.
CorvetteBG 1 year ago
@kapoof2 I think the female ninja (kunoichi) weren't assassins, but spies due to their flexability and lack of strength. Purely assassins, doubt it.
brucenatelee 1 year ago
@brucenatelee kunoichi didnt need strength to kill their targets, i believe kunoichi were 10X more dangerous than ninja because they were harder to spot, and harder to stop once theyve got u in their grasp, think about it, you have sex with some random girl, and OH SHIT, she stabs the fuck out of u, and u had no idea
kapoof2 1 year ago
check out the shinobi soldiers video they ae much better
TSOAS2008 2 years ago
its the Magistrate of death! XD
HomasterX 2 years ago 2
volume levels, VOLUME LEVELSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
elcooter 2 years ago 4
buena propaganda, a pesar de que estudio Judo y Jujitsu es bueno copiar cosas de otras artes y poner atencion con sus tecnicas para implantarlas en el repertorio...
mr1nausea 2 years ago
Y mas aun, como derrotarlas. Es dificil conocer el universo cuando estudias un planeta.
vidividivicious 2 years ago
holy shit. everyones tryin be constructive lol.
imilkdude 2 years ago
You two should just fight, and settle this once and for all...who ever martials arts is better, you will both now at the end...
anthonyi69 2 years ago
we arent arguing about what is better.... he thinks he studies ninjutsu,.. and refuses to acknowledge any of the obvious holes in his "grandmaster's" story
he also refuses to provide anything resembling proof that his school is what he claims it to be...
authenticity would not be proveable by a fight..
Creationsofmyown 2 years ago
He need not prove anything,,,as he isn't the one wanting to prove things to everyone else... he is happy doing what he does...but questions those who sit there bad mouthing others about something they have no experience of or any real knowledge....
dorapha 2 years ago 3
he doesnt need to prove it? then why even apply? if he was so happy he would never have applied at all.. he tried to get recognition and was exposed as a fake...
and just because my knowledge hurts your feeling doesnt mean its not there.... when you can refute anything i have said let me know... so far you havent denied any of my counterclaims.
and you still havent proven hatsumi to be legit and the way ur going you never will... even hatsumi couldnt prove it, but u can?
Creationsofmyown 2 years ago
I have a question. I know Ninjutsu must be a very complete and complex art, but in the part of self defense without weapons is Ju Jutsu, isnt it?
Anibal677 2 years ago
in part of empty-hands self defense it is like jujutsu in 20% or less. Ninjutsu uses vital and pressure points very much. If you have done jujutsu or judo for some time, it's easier to begin with ninjutsu, but ninjutsu fighting itself is like no other
Obiwan198 2 years ago
fare play baldy i like your style.
djassimilator 2 years ago
that the difference between the application of the techniques between these schools is markedly pronounced. Especially techniques from the 3 Ninpo ryu-ha; these are usually only taught later, and are more advanced and difficult to apply because their goal is subtle, and the technique difficult to master. AS for clothing, THEY DID NOT WEAR BLACK, PROBABLY EVER! Not even when stalking through woods or something. If you do, you show more of a silhouette than if you wear browns, greens, dark blues.
Ansatsunin 2 years ago 4
Tis true.
Kusarigamajutsu 2 years ago
name 1 person who has been granted menkyo kaiden in ANY of those "ninpo ryu-ha"....
there arent any people being graded in the menkyo system... none of the people hatsumi teaches can ever achieve any recognition from japan. the menkyo system is what hatsumi is claiming... but he doesnt give ranks in it... dont you think thats odd?
Creationsofmyown 2 years ago
Ok Menkyo holders are: Oguri Sensei, Seno Sensei, Manaka Sensei, Nagato sensei and so on..all the Shihan and to be honest joining that Koryu board IS joining a club and I will dare say it.. because it being it or not in it doesn't make a bit of difference to skill.. Hatsumi doesn't really care..he applied..they wanted him to send his scrolls..he refused he asked them to come and have a look they refused so.that was that...How is it u know so much and have never actually visited the man yourself?
dorapha 2 years ago
i dont think any of those people are named sensei... i asked for names... be so generous as to provide them... it would also help if you named the ryu they supposedly have menkyo in.
say what you want,... it still doesnt make you correct...
hatsumi denied access to the scrolls...
and regardless... once accepted by the NKS he wouldnt need the scrolls to prove his authenticity...
if i was applying to a "club".. i wouldnt send half an application... i also wouldnt do it 3 times...
Creationsofmyown 2 years ago
@dorapha Well said... I'm not sure why this Creationofmyownselfimage kid doesn't just go to meet these people if he's so obsessed with ninjutsu and their achievements/skills .He gets his knowledge from the internet lol...he knows nothing.
sanshin9 1 year ago
@sanshin9
because i shouldnt have to spend thousands of dollars buying into his crap to get 5th dan so i can go talk to him... hes not exactly going to book me an interview... he kicks out students who ask too much about the history...
then again hatsumi has intelligently moved far away from the word ninjutsu... he knows he cant back the claim... i would be doing the EXACT same thing in that spot...
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown to talk to him u simply need to make an appointment and if he has time he will see u...thats it.. u do not need to spend all that much money as u put it for a conversation...many people visit him all the time...but u will need to conduct your conversation in Japanese..so if u don't speak the language arrange for an interpreter... he doesn't throw students out for asking about history come on..where do u get this crap from??
dorapha 1 year ago
@dorapha
so you think he will answer me?
when he refused an answer to the Nihon kobudo shinkokai? and to his students?
he has thrown students out of the dojo for asking too much of the history...
the only way i could EVER accept this, would be to say " your out of the school, here is the proof you couldnt trust i had... show some faith next time"
and it has happened...
Antony cummings got thrown out.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown Antony who?? never heard of him... he will answer u provided u approach with respect and not an arsey attitude. There are many that come and ask the same questions and have been for the last 3 decades or so... as for what others say... I think tis best u go directly and deal with him rather than going by hearsay.. go and find out for yourself... but don't waste time commenting on something u have no first hand knowledge of..
dorapha 1 year ago
@dorapha
so you think he suddenly has answers now? he refused them to the Nihon kobudo shinkokai when it benefitted himself to speak of it... how can i offer more incentive than he had when he refused them??
hatsumi wont answer these questions because he CANT
but here is the problem with your last line. we have no proof that HATSUMI has first hand knowledge of ninjutsu, so he shouldnt be saying anything about it either.
antony cumming, TSOAS2008 had 10 years in buj.when kicked.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown ...Right, when someone gets kicked out of the Buj and its very very rare...its because of some misconduct or for causing harm to others..and I mean direct harm as opposed to verbal crap...now if this guy was thrown out as u put it then there will have been more to it than what u may have been told. as for the NKS...they wanted to take away the scrolls to "test" them and he didn't want that.. as for u are there to find out for yourself and that is usually welcomed.
dorapha 1 year ago
@dorapha
he asked about the history...
and then pointed out that the scrolls(bansenshukai, ninpiden, shoninki) say absolutely nothing about combat, and asked soke why his is the only one claimin ninjutsu to be a MA.
if your explanation is correct, then why didnt takamatsu include them when he was interviewed for the Bugei ryuha daijiten? the brd ONLY lists his claims as kuden.
it doesnt matter to me which of them is lying... but both cant be telling the truth... take ur pick.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown What did Takamatsu say?
dorapha 1 year ago
@dorapha
clearly that he didnt have densho....
if you are interested im sure you can find translations of the BRD online somewhere...
i unfortunately dont have a copy,,, way to rich for my blood.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@dorapha He has the Densho...but either way am not the one with doubts concerning all this so I am not going to waste time on it... The main interest I have is in training which after shopping around and training in various martial arts for 25 years I found one that rings true to my experiences in life... but put simply if Hatsumi sensei or Takamatsu sensei really made up all this stuff...they are bloody geniuses...kudos for them for achieving that...but why give someone else credit?
dorapha 1 year ago
@dorapha
because takagi yoshin ryu + shinden fudo ryu + "the stuff i have learned here, and in china" isnt a very good way to market yourself....
im not sure if takamatsu built off the ninja craze, or started it... but i know he had NO CLUE what he was getting into... and look at where we are, i agree with you though, hatsumi is a solid MA, but that doesnt mean he cant be full of shit.
i heard the training was better in the 80s seems he toned it down lame if u ask me.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown Nah training is good... but a lot of people as usual want to do the fancy stuff so they tend to try and do what he is doing which negates the years of development he took to reach his level...so u get a lot of idiots trying to be like him in a short amount of time... as for the 80s..they were hard but training is still hard if u approach the right teachers. problem is the group is huge so u get a lot of crap along with it...its really down to finding a good teacher in the end.
dorapha 1 year ago
That's true...they didn't wear black..they wore what was appropriate to blend in...usually like monks, actors, entertainers, even Samurai..The black stuff was from Kabuki plays and the like which became associated with the ninja.
dorapha 2 years ago
Whatabout telling the truth ? this is KRAV MAGA recalled Ninjutsu. Just DO observe Masaaki Hatsumi moving, you'll clearly see the difference. Look for Daikomyosai in google's vids or in youtube's. Ninpo Ikkan.
cooldangeneva 2 years ago
nicerebound obviously doesn't know much about ninjutsu. Ninjutsu has existed..... in fact the last ninja Seiko Fujita died not too long ago. It's just that ninjutsu isn't what it's like today. Ninja's were usually lower classed samurai. That's why they trained in the same way....but differently. And that's why they were able to do task. Higher classed samurai wouldn't do. Now ninjutsu is still taught.... but ninjutsu isn't ancient ninjutsu anymore.
ProfessorOhms 2 years ago
Wasn't ninjas considered to be Eta (outcasts) ?
Saemaey 2 years ago
you might be thinking of the ronin. ronin were masterless samurai and were generaly seen as betrayers because when a samurai lost their master it was excpected of them to commit ritual suicide.
sk8wise12 2 years ago
actually ninjas were'nt low class samurai they were more like anti samurai during fudule era in japans history ! samurai had armour and codes of honour ninjas had black cloth and well little if no honour at all !!
geraintforfucksake 2 years ago
Uhhhh.
Ninja's did not wear black cloth back in feudal japan. They dressed like any other samurai. Walking around in black would be a dead giveaway that they're a ninja. Thus getting them killed. They weren't anti samurai. They WERE samurai themselves. Infact the skills they practice are similar to the skills practiced by Samurai.
ProfessorOhms 2 years ago
a samurai could be a ninja but i think it would be more likely that the geisha in the local tavern is a ninja...or the old man selling cabbage in the market...or the beggar in the corner...or....well you get it. a samurai who nearly always is by his masters side wouldnt get much time to be a ninja
Saemaey 2 years ago
Ok. Listen up. Ninja were just PEOPLE IN VILLAGES. PERIOD. They assimilated in various groups for espionage purposes (spying + disinformation spreading), and for general living. They were all kinds of people, in all kinds of walks of life. As for the martial arts, since their roots lie partially with a few old samurai who decided to do things a little differently, a lot of their techniques are like samurai's. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, for example, trains in 6 schools of Jujutsu, and 3 of Ninpo.
Ansatsunin 2 years ago
bujinkan is not ninpo... hatsumi has applied 3 times to the koryu board and been denied all 3.
there is also a profound lack of evidence of toda ever even existing.
without toda and his authentication takamatsu's claims along with hatsumi's are null.
Creationsofmyown 2 years ago
Regardless of whether they wish to accept him or not...His techniques are incredible and if he is false...then it means he is more of a genius that if he wasn't false...Think about it why would a man create an amazing style and give someone else credit? That's just stupid...and the proof is in the pudding..Go to Japan train with the Shihan and u tell me if they are authentic or not.
dorapha 2 years ago
"His techniques are incredible" thats an interesting opinion... i could make anything look incredible if my students dove when they were trained to...
there is nothing amazing about the bujinkan style... and as for giving others credit... that would be the only way to attempt to achieve recognition.. which hatsumi has failed all 3 times he has applied to the nihon kobudo shinkokai...
you havent done the homework on the start of hatsumi's training it seems...
Creationsofmyown 2 years ago
So from the sounds of it u went to Japan trained with the Shihan and beat everyone up with one arm tied behind your back... Otherwise all your opinions are based on hearsay and watching a few youtube vids. .. I however went there trained with him and coming from an MMA background I wanted things proven to me and they were and I was not "trained" to react... As for Hatsumi's credibility failing to join a club doesn't mean U are not legit it simply means they don't want u to join.
dorapha 2 years ago
what the fuck are you even talking about.... ninjutsu doesnt have shihan...
i know this kind of ruins your idea of being a ninja... but ninjutsu like most koryu uses the traditional menkyo system.
how dare you claim NKS as a club.... its a society, and hatsumi was declined because he isnt legit...
if you didnt do the research its not my fault meathead... go pick up a book and do your own homework. Ueno Takashi is the true successor of Takamatsu.
Creationsofmyown 2 years ago
@Creationsofmyown "I could make anything look incredible if my students dove when they were trained to..." -Hey tell me when to dive in and show me how you can make anything look incredible.I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and I'll let you pull off techniques on me. lol
"there is nothing amazing about the bujinkan style.." and this is why you know nothing about ninjutsu.
Bujinkan style? I wasn't aware there was a bujinkan style out there...you probably found this on the internet? :P
sanshin9 1 year ago
@sanshin9
first, i already corrected your ASSUMPTION that the bujinkan in some way is or contains ninjutsu.
i said THE bujinkan style... it was a word in sentence,,,, it refers to the overall FEEL of the bujinkans set of techniques.
none of it is much different than what takamatsu already know, or could have easily have picked up in his travels... he WAS a prominent budoka, but that doesnt mean everything he says is true, and even the BRDJT says that all the buj has are kuden claims.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
Do you know which province those samurai came out of and why they decided to do things a little differently? :P
Cagedand3nRaged 2 years ago
The main difference is the focus on adaptability, efficiency, and the generally quirky and "offbeat" style of movement, because it's composed of so many martial arts' moves and ways of moving. I mean, taking Bujinkan as an example again, you don't just get one school or ryu-ha being taught, you're getting 9. That's 9 different ways of performing each technique, each looking and feeling differently, with each having a different effect. Of course applications are limitless but I mean
Ansatsunin 2 years ago
Comment removed
nicerebound 2 years ago
a modern day ninja would:
1:not stand out in a crowd
2:most likely not be a mountain of muscles
3:kill you with a silenced rifle from a rooftop somewhere, a mailbomb or carbomb..or poison
4:most likely be a female
reasons:
1: because they dont want to be seen and blend into a crowd
2: same as above and muscles weigh
3: because its most efficient
4: because their target is most likely a man and men are more likely to trust a woman
Saemaey 2 years ago 3
i have a disagreement about number four. what if said target was gay? i mean the gay community is so open now they're everywhere (not saying its a bad thing just a fact) and it's acceptable now.
sk8wise12 2 years ago
still a woman for best results. if its a lesbian then..well they like girls obviously...a gay guy...well they usually have more female friends then the average straight guy...and besides both gay men and women mingle in the same places as straight people do
note for the cat lovers:
this post took me almost 10 mins to write simply because my cat (Joker), who doesnt know how to sleep without a nice cuddle first, kept on interupting me
Saemaey 2 years ago
btw guys it's spelled ninjutsu...jutsu means art
wachaninja7 2 years ago
welcome to america master ninja, we spell things badd
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
This is not NINJUTSU
this is a lot of false techniques....
this is a lie for the people...
this is a mix of bullshit...
THIS IS NOT BUJINKAN...
THE ONLY REAL NINJUTSU IS BUJINKAN...
belive or not.
leomixkine 2 years ago
According to you.
Ninjutsu is whatever we make of it today.... as long as we keep its history alive.
Ninjutsu artist that spend most of their day trying to argue whats ninjutsu and whats not. Miss the whole point of doing ninjutsu in the first place. It's an ART... not a fucking debate.
ProfessorOhms 2 years ago
Comment removed
nicerebound 2 years ago
probably a defense against the hanging lunge stab
nicerebound 2 years ago
i like how people argue that a martial art is better than an optimized mix of multiple martial arts. it makes lots of sense.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
i would say there is no such things as MMA. It is impossible to mix martial arts and be a master at all of them. most MMA users are just shootfighters or jujutsukas. whatever arts you choose to mix your going to have more of something and less of something but to mix all arts efficiently is impossible
Saemaey 2 years ago
wow, asserting something makes it true. you have no proof. the obvious refutations are the numerous bjj black belts who are primarily known as vicious strikers in an mma context. whereas those who claim mastery in one art would have trouble in a multidimensional fight with any top level mma practitioner or competitor.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
no proof eh? take a look at ufc and tell me how many MMA's there dont use a mix of kickboxing,wrestling and JJ...or shootfighting and kickboxing
is it a mixed martial art just because you have 2 martial arts in there even if they are pretty much the same thing? idsay its mixed when it contains atleast 5 MA's that have nothing to do with one another...but nevermind that
Saemaey 2 years ago
well then you are defining mixed incorrectly, and moreover, jiu jitsu and muay thai couldn't be more different, and yet master jiu jitsu players are often known in mma for their superior striking. ie, they did not purely rely on their original discipline, but branched out.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
your confusing me..are mma's better or "one martial art masters"
Saemaey 2 years ago
you said that one art master's are better than mma people who puportedly only develop shallow levels of skill in multiple arts, spreading themselves too thin as it were.
I gave the example of bjj black belts, theoretically masters in one art, who transition too mma, and manage to find even greater success in striking, while some prefer a ground and pound, western wrestling approach. so, these guys in mma don't always rely on their original mastery.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
mma although the letters stand for mixed martial arts is not a martial art as such, its a sport, martial arts are survival arts, there are so many moves disallowed in mma that are the core of martial arts, ie strikes to joints, eyes, throat, genitals, the use and defence against weapons, awareness, fighting in the dark, developing your senses, street awareness, avoiding danger of being attacked in the first place.
singhakabuttar 2 years ago
this sucks.... this bald guy is gonna get raped big time...
Vladrad 2 years ago
just lies...
adrianazo2007 2 years ago
I'm an MMA fighter myself..... HOWEVER!! Different situations called for different measures. I worked my ninjutsu training 400 years ago amongst 1000s of angry warriors. Read the history! MMA is great for two years and if someone is shooting at you with gun that's just silly, mixed martial artists are godlike people who could win wars.
nicerebound 2 years ago 2
400 years ago amongst 1000s of angry warriors trying to take your head off.
Yeah!!!!
nicerebound 2 years ago
ninjitsu isn't a fraud this guy alan jenkins is a fraud.
Terrapinfan2007 2 years ago
while i agree we cant be sure of modern ninja lineage, the fact is ninjas were real and killed for a living for generations. that means something about it worked. it may be outdated (maybe) but dont say its shit because of MMA. just because we have modern guns now doesnt mean a bow and arrow is shit. it still will kill you. its all matter of context. id rather have a Beretta, but if a crossbow is all i have, thats better than nothing.
violentbuddha 2 years ago
we dont know much about ninjas to begin with. if some modern version kicks ass, why hasn't anyone noticed? where is it hiding...the good ninjutsu?
no one's seen it anywhere!
what gives you hope?
have you seen the good ninjutsu?
nicerebound 3 years ago
"if ninjas from the past japan used ninjutsu to survive, why cant ppl use it to stay alive now?"
a few reasons i believe people should steer away from ninjutsu
- its culturally irrelevant
- there are no proven lineages to ancient ninjas
- ninjutsu has very limited participation in competition and a very poor record
- there are countless videos of poorly executed and unrealistic ninjutsu yet almost no video footage of ninjutsu application
- the dojo near me is laughable
why is it so great?
nicerebound 3 years ago
because you sould more dedicated to it
jea740 3 years ago
excuse me?
nicerebound 3 years ago
all martial arts are difrent
jea740 3 years ago
what is your point?
nicerebound 3 years ago
why are so many idiots obsessed with compitition how long would a ufc fighter last against someone throwing shurikens at them and keeping a distance
we dont culturally evolve to resist ninja attacks
someone who has to be beaten to death before even admitting that they arent a combat god has no right to judge anyone under any circumstance
cavepanther 2 years ago
I always see the point to listen to ones opinion and to reflect on the good and bad points someone has, but you are just an idiot. I learned more from a ninjutsu teacher in one months time then I learned for several years in gyms or anyone else. so don't go around and bad mouth an entire style just because of your shit experience.
AntiHero12109 2 years ago
i find it hard to believe you spent several years fighting at gyms
nicerebound 2 years ago
I'm 22, and Started martial arts in 1994, I was born in 86. Why would you find that hard to believe?
AntiHero12109 2 years ago
Oh really?
And what did this gym experience consist of?
Because I could just as easily claim that I learned more from my BJJ instructor in four seconds than I did from my ninjutsu teacher in sixty-eight years. And it would carry as much weight as the statement you have just made.
Anecdotal evidence =/= appropriate evidence for a debate of this nature.
ilikeaeroplanejelly 2 years ago
Fine, I'm superman, fuck you, I'm not debating something I actually care about with some jackass kid on myspace, so I want you to do something for me, Go home if your not there already lay down in bed and take a good half hour and go fuck yourself.
AntiHero12109 2 years ago
So long as you're not peddling your bullshit here, I'm happy :)
ilikeaeroplanejelly 2 years ago
I beg to differ. People think that 1 style is always better than the other and in this case, ppl think MMA is better & ninjutsu is useless.. but think abt it.. if ninjas from the past japan used ninjutsu to survive, why cant ppl use it to stay alive now? Yes, u could argue that MMA is suited for street fights, but is there at all any prove that it is much more effective than ninjutsu? In my opinion, all kinds of martial arts r of the same kind and it depends on the user if he can use it well.
divinecross222 3 years ago
"all kinds of martial arts r of the same kind and it depends on the user if he can use it well"
Not true. A tai'chi practitioner cannot defend himself as well as a mixed martial artist. Styles are not all the same. This idea is retarded and was probably made up by pissed off TKD guys who realized their martial art sucks.
excludedmiddle65 3 years ago
HMM everyones kinda arguing on different levels here, i guess it depends on the situation.... just thought id put that out there..... O.o
lobilnater 3 years ago
in your dreams that work it
admiteco 3 years ago
and LOL at the ONE ARMED ( WTF ) rear naked choke....so fukin retarded..
nekftw 3 years ago
ok if you could chose who was to guide you through a dark alley with hobos lying around.
would it be:
A seasoned mma fighter who knocked out plenty of people, had his bones bruised /broken on a regular basis,runs20 miles a day and deadlifts a shitload
or some self proclaimed *NINJAAAAA* who did slowmotion techniques on his students his entirelife, who never had a broken nose, hell even never got REALLY punched or kicked at all?
nekftw 3 years ago
sorry but traditional martial arts are fraud
skullyko 3 years ago
"sorry but traditional martial arts are fraud"
So are you saying that taking a traditional martial art such as Brazilian Jui Jitsu or Muay Thai or boxing will not help me fight any better??
excludedmiddle65 3 years ago 2
No they're not. I'm an MMA fighter myself..... HOWEVER!!.... these older arts lasted for years and worked. Read the history! Lets put any MMA fighter onto a battle field 400 years ago amongst 1000s of angry warriors trying to take your head off. MMA not gonna last long at all. MMA is great for a one on one modern street scenario or in the ring/cage. I worked as a doorman for two years and used my ninjutsu training as much as I did the BJJ. Different situations called for different measures.
RJWNZ 2 years ago 2