Theophany 1. Divine Liturgy at St. Basil the Great

[stevennewnan]

All Greek Catholics(Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Melkite, etc.)should be Eastern Orthodox in union. This was the plea granted to the Melkite Patriarch by His Holiness BenedictXVI Pope of Rome in May 2008.

[mariuszs3]

As such the Orthodox do believe that the Pope is the true pope but currently are not in union with him because of dogmatic things that happened 1000 years ago. As such at any time they could come back in union. I know canon lawyers, many priests, and theology teachers and all say that the Orthodox are in schism but not in heresy. And stop quoting things from that cathecism that don't support your argument. Read the V2 documents regarding the Orthodox.

[darkcoven]

I submit to Holy Mother Church! I respect these so-called canon lawyers, theologians (even St. Thomas Aquinas) But I'm not bound by their interpellations, rather what the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Show to me in an infallible document i.e. Papal ex cathedras, Nicae I to Vatican II that says the Easter "Orthodox" ARE NOT heretics.

[mariuszs3]

Very well, I will grant your request. I shall find one and will post it here. Although right now i have to get going but this conversation isn't over. It may take a while and since i am busy do not think that you have won if i haven't replied within 2 days.

[darkcoven]

I'm not in a contest, nor does this debate prove I'm absolutely right and you're absolutely wrong. Let's leave that to the Church. Rather I just want to justify my designating these Eastern "Orthodox" as heretics since they reject dogmas which the Catholic Church demands ALL men to believed.

[mariuszs3]

Either way, once I find the appropriate document I will prove to you the stance of the RCC regarding the Orthodox.

[darkcoven]

You should prove to me the official/doctrinal stance of the RCC regarding the Orthodox.

[darkcoven]

The issue here is not whether these "Orthodox" believe the Pope is the pope, rather whether they uphold Catholic dogma of Supremacy and Papal infallibility. Please show me the explicit infallible document of Vatican II or the Catechism that says the Eastern "Orthodox" are NOT heretics.

GO ahead show me..

[darkcoven]

Please don't quote theological opinions rather offical binding documents that prevent Catholics designating people who reject Papal Supremacy and infallibility as heretics. But show me the official document saying that these people are NOT heretics...

[mariuszs3]

I will show them to you once I get them. Until that time please remain patient as this isn't over.

[vaio720]

...persons curious about the eastern church should read "the orthodox way" by kallistos ware....it introduced me to the eastern church and transformed my life....

[katolikogroup]

This is from St. Basil's Church at 14263 Mulberry Drive, Los Gatos, CA 95032-1208

[darkcoven]

I'm a traditional Catholic of the Latin Church, attending the Tridentine Mass at Divine Mercy Sikatuna, Cubao. I must say that the Tridentine and the Byzantine Rites, are superb in their own way. I hope they can put up a mission area here in Parañaque, or Manila to counter the schismatic and heretical threats of the Greek "Orthodox".

[mariuszs3]

Orthodox is schismatic but not heretical. Remember that. Heresy is like the Nestorians, Arians, etc.

[darkcoven]

mariuzs3, before you continue preaching your erroneous opinion, please read first par. 2089of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal DENIAL OF SOME TRUTH which must be believed with divine and catholic faith with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.

But your so-called "Orthodox" are not really orthodox rather heretics pretending to be orthodox since they manifestly reject Papal Supremacy, Infallibility etc.

[mariuszs3]

Actually those that reject papal superiority are in error. But the Patriarchs and bishops of the Orthodox church do not reject this, and at any time we could come into union with them. THey are in schism which means not in union with the church. If they were cast out because of being heretics then their own way of returning would be to change that. If you ever been to an Eastern Catholic rite they do everything the same as the Orthodox and believe everything as they do only they are in union.

[darkcoven]

You must first prove that these Eastern "Orthodox" upholds the explicit and de fide infallible dogma of Papal Supremacy, and Infallibility, yet like the SSPX, does not want to be in communion with the present Pope. It has been proven that these Eastern "Orthodox" persist in their refusal to acknowledge the Catholic dogmas concerning the Pope of Rome. Now by that refusal and rejection of the said dogmas is what made them qualify as 'heretics'!

[darkcoven]

I have no quarrels with our Eastern Catholic brethren and their understanding and valid interpretation of Catholic dogma. My only comment to them is that they too should preserve their own liturgical traditions and avoid being infected by the Protestantizations of the Novus Ordo(no longer latinization). The point IS both Roman and Eastern Catholics ARE the true Orthodox Christians clinging to the Catholic faith and to Christ's Vicar, unlike these Eastern "Orthodox" (whom we have a lot in common)

[mariuszs3]

And as for the cathecism it refers to if you are a catholic and after baptism you renounce something that must be believed. The orthodox are baptized in their own rite.

[darkcoven]

Marius please read and avoid putting your comments, the Catechism doesn't mention that if you're Catholic then reject somerthing you're a heretic, RATHER Heresy IS the obstinate POST-BAPTISMAL DENIAL OF SOME TRUTH which must be believed with divine and catholic faith with divine and catholic faith. It doesn't even mention rites rather the act of baptism being conferred.

[mariuszs3]

We will continue this once i get out my material. Expect to hear from me.

[darkcoven]

Hence, even Protestants (who are validly baptized like the Eastern "Orthodox") who rejects Catholic truth, after their baptisms are to be generally acknowledge as 'heretics'! It does not say that one should be baptised in the Catholic Church then reject a doctrine for him/her to be heretical. Rather CCC says that if one denys Catholic truth after baptism (a valid one whether Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern "Orthodox", since a non-valid one is no baptism at all) he/she will be guilty of heresy.

[mariuszs3]

St. Thomas (II-II, Q. xi, a. 1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". "The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity common to Pagans and Jews;

[mariuszs3]

the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval.

[NihilNominis]

I love the Eastern Rites...how I wish the Roman Rite were more like this!

[dralinkram]

the only one roman rite familiar like this is called "TRIDENTINE MASS" and "PRE-TRIDENTINE MASS".The purpose of ordinary mass in the roman catholic is to shorten the summary of "HOLY EUCHARIST OR CELEBRATION OF PRESENCE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST".it is also to know the real significance of mass "center christ" that why they shorten...it include sermons,evangelized and ohters

[Vampyrlust2000]

I Second this... I am Byzantine, Melkite, an it is awesome! Silly latins

[InfernoXV]

Um. This is not in the Philippines. This is in California.

[alwyn84]

So, there are Eastern Catholics in Filiphine?? cool!