Peter Kropotkin - Representative Government and Wages

[UberVersatile]

Please the robot voice sucks. Dude a mic is 20 dollars or something. Please get one.

[nocturnezero]

Just read "A Critique of Anarchist Communism" by Ken Knudson, the first really throgough critique of Kropotkin's ideas I've seen (it focuses on The Conquest of Bread). His points are pretty easy to refute and often taken out of context, but it's enlightening to hear some objections to your beliefs.

[4500jas]

Kropotkin is probably the Anarchist philosopher I like the most with Bakunin.

[Anima14]

Our toil makes the world what it is- it is ours

[MagnitudePerson]

What a awesome man/individual!

Long live Peter Kropotkin. Happy birthday! fuck Scarcity, wage slavery!

[shinobi38]

The ammount of disappointment I felt when I heard the 'voice' on this thing cannot be measured. Anarchists- sort it the fuck out!!

[thirdshift47]

Representative government is just State capitalism & postcolonialal democracies' name for a 'dictatorship of the proletariat'.

I need to re-up on my Kropotkin & leftist literature.

Thanks for these posts.

[chrispollock]

everyone who seeks to socially engineer society into collectivist society is scum

[agapeiron]

@chrispollock Capitalists are scum, waste, shit. They should be treated as such; swept away to make way for a more humane society.

[chrispollock]

@agapeiron the capitalist is no less greedy than a socialist. the capitalist is simply honest about their greed while the socialist denies it while indulging in it in counterproductive ways.

[agapeiron]

@chrispollock Let us say your statement is true (though it is just more conservative misanthropy)-- Then that still would not mean that capitalism should not be eradicated. Because in a capitalist society, the value of greed is imposed on every one born into it. So not only do the rich (successfully) act greedy, but the poor (unsuccessfully) act greedy. These are the values it promotes.

Either way, it is a circus sideshow ideology that needs to have its diapers changed. Utterly bankrupt.

[chrispollock]

@agapeiron if by misanthropy you mean realistic view of how humans operate. the value of a greed is in every system since the beginning of time. you pretend it doesn't exist in non capitalist systems. false. capitalism acknowledges that everyone is self interested and provides a free framework by which people might produce things of value for people by appealing to that self interest. if the poor are unsuccessful then they had nothing of value to offer anyone else. they need to learn skills.

[agapeiron]

@chrispollock No, misanthropy pretending to be realistic. Sure, greed is a feature of human beings.  Where did I say greed can't exist in human beings living in non-capitalist systems? But you want systems that stoke up the flames of greed, turn everyone into a little swindler. Communities where people try to squeeze cash out of each other as a life goal. Greed as the order of the day; dressed up as "rational self-interest."

Your opinions on the poor are of course typical; same old song.

[chrispollock]

@agapeiron to a leftist, realism is misanthropy. not my problem. capitalism channels greed, it does not stoke it. swindlers do not prosper in capitalism, those who offer things of value to others prosper. if we aren't legally trying to squeeze cash out of each other through offering things of value, we'll try to do it through force like every other non capitalist system on earth. rational self interest is greed, you can either channel it constructively or let it manifest as corruption.

[Menace3434]

@chrispollock Why you narrow human nature to only greed and "self interest"? the problem is this, we anarchists don't act like we understand human nature, human nature is relative as all existential concepts are, so please drop those propagandist arguments, for a "realist" you really don't know how our world works.

[chrispollock]

@Menace3434 because humans are primarily self interested individuals so society should benefit those self interested individuals that voluntarily cooperate with others. human nature is not relativistic, greed and self interest are inherent, even if individuals sometimes cooperate depending on their own individual goals. denying that humans are greedy and should be allowed to fulfill such greed constructively is to relegate it to a handful of powerful people, just as in feudal times.

[Menace3434]

@chrispollock That's the most narrowest view of human nature i ever heard, you reduce human nature to absolution, you are the one engineering it . To say that human nature is something is to be an absolutist, human nature is a social construct, how it manifests itself depends on many things, for example environment and societal institutions. You can't go to pigmies and tell them about "self interest". You are the one putting limits to something, that goes way beyond our comprehension.

[chrispollock]

@Menace3434 selfishness is not engineered, we are born whining for sustenance. get your head out of your leftist textbooks. in more backward societies, selfishness is denied and comes out in destructive forms. however, in western culture, thankfully, individual liberty, and the right to individual sovereignty and the constructive fulfillment of that greedy self interest, was championed. adam smith is a good man.

[Menace3434]

@chrispollock Whining for sustenance is selfishness?sustenance is the product of greed?LOL now your just ridiculous. Your just trying to go around and around the argument putting labels and creating words. Selfishness denotes an excessive or exclusive concern with oneself, and as such it exceeds mere self interest or self concern.Insofar as a decision maker knowingly burdens or harms others for personal gain, the decision is selfish. In itself selfishness is not a virtue. You really change words

[Menace3434]

@chrispollock If selfishness is the primary product of human nature than, how about other products and manifestations of it ? are they "leftist" propaganda? if that's all that is human nature then how you can explain the others ?your argument is self defeating, because you limit something that is obviously limitless, go outside and fall in love for one time,that's greed too no?complex emotions and feelings are products of greed , all human psychology is the product of greed. Come on that's bull.

[chrispollock]

@Menace3434 it's the primary nature. we start as individuals and then associate as we see fit. human nature isn't limitless, it's predictable and simple. individuals are self interested, groups are just individuals pursuing mutual self interests. sure love exists. but greed is the primary directive and any time you pretend a society can be both free and prosperous without respecting the self interest of individuals to pursue their own goals without a group dominating them, you fool yourself.

[agapeiron]

@chrispollock How do you support that greed is the primary directive of all social behavior?

And just out of curiosity-- Don't you get tired of squeezing out little turds of half-baked, misanthropic, ideological fabulism?

[chrispollock]

@agapeiron groups don't exist. individuals acting for common self interest exist. so all action is greed based. to form societies that claim to be "selfless" is stupidity

[agapeiron]

@chrispollock I asked you to support an assertion; you replied with a series of more assertions.

When you want to actually make an argument, let me know.

[chrispollock]

@agapeiron the assertions i stated are true. if you don't think people are greedy and self interested, you are naiive and have alot to learn.

[agapeiron]

@chrispollock An argument is not supported by simply asserting that it is true. By that logic I could say, a dog is a rabbit, and then by simply asserting that what I said was true, could assume that people take seriously the idea that a dog is a rabbit. Then I could say, well, you are just naive and have a lot to learn about how dogs really are rabbits.

But I would be a self-absorbed idiot to do so and would not actually be saying anything meaningful.

[mykebulvai]

@chrispollock . My assertion is that you just got owned by the other guy, and the other guy, and the other guy before him. My argument has just about as much substance and weight as your argument.

[chrispollock]

@mykebulvai if you are a leftist, your arguments are bogus. leftists are thieves, weaklings or economic illiterates masquerading as champions of ethics and sound economics. anarchist or communist, you are all the same in your misguided rejection of free market republican society

[nocturnezero]

@chrispollock Collectivism and individualism are interesting terms. Is society individualist now? People follow trends, submit to authority, engage themselves in groups and cliques, participate in government, and prefer groupthink to individual thought. If you mean economic collectivism, that is quite a natural state of society, and would require the same amount of social engineering as civic engineering is required to make water descend down a waterfall.

[Menace3434]

@chrispollock I think you have anarchists confused, anarchists never tried forcing nobody into something in fact anarchists were the first anti authoritarians in history , beginning with Bakunin's critique of Marx within the fist international, please i know its hard but at least read sometimes you got Kropotkin confused with Stalin or Lenin i think. That reminds me, anarchists were also the first official "anti communists". We destroyed our own movements just to not be social engineers ;)

[Onepretentiousdude]

@Menace3434

Well, Marx was not really authoritarian either. Anarchism and communism are pretty much the same thing with just different methods of attaining it, but Marx never said whether you need to do it the Russian way or the Spanish way.

[jakeehook]

@SynerJetics

Why? What makes anyone among the masses any different from anyone among the intelligentsia? That's a fundamental anarchist principle: to establish equal opportunity for all. As such, the system promotes itself. Sure, people In the current system are undereducated and brainwashed, but once shirked of authoritarian influence, anyone is as capable as another.

[womblefree]

Nice vid, we accept the label middle class so readilly, gordon brown uses it tony blair did and the tories use it including obama. lets face it every body seems to wont to be part of this class when 80 to 90% never will. we're all owned by the right wingers wake up people

[AnarchistOnTheRise]

Any temporary government will become the permenant government. Governments have never willingly step down its always been armed struggle to end it.

[huzeaaron]

Great stuff (series) But as a fan I cant listen to it. No one sho is not already interested would ever hear this through. Put a better voice on it and it will be infinitely more useful...

[ZYKLONBKILLSHITLER]

Anarchist Communism :-)

[ChurchofMe88]

decent mic's for recording aren't that expensive, if you go to radio shack or some such retail outlet you could probably pick one up that is sufficient for this kind of recording for like 10-20$, thanks for posting

[Menace3434]

i actually did that my latest video is my speaking thanks for checking

[Nederlandac]

Great man (A).

[Irtidad]

Is this from The Conquest of Bread?

[Menace3434]

no its from THE WAGE SYSTEM

[ChurchofMe88]

good excerpt, but the voice is beyond annoying

[Menace3434]

yeah i know sorry i don't have a good mic for recording it myself so i used text to speech software tough the quality is much better then the windows text to speech

[sexdrugsRnR]

@Menace3434

hey what software did you use?