For a person who has spent a Number of years at art Uni Colleges etc she really is appalling . You dont have to be a great painter to be a great artist. as you dont have to be a Great singer to be a great Performer. But i do draw the line when . the art is less about Figure or expressive art in Materials . and its Now became much more Of a self Promotion and Celebratory ego, self masturbatory Drivel..
If nothing else, she is a decent quilter! Seriously, the reason it's art for me is simple - there is a clear vision that communicates to the viewer - not just via the objects and messages that form the medium, but also by skilled handling of good old-fashioned form, composition and colour.
Art from the beggining was primarily about beauty in all its forms, including suffering. These so called art pieces are simply the grotesque feelings and thoughts of a low life degenerate women, that have been alowed to manifest when they should have stayed hidden.
She is the ultimate bottom of the con-artists.The beautiful visual art of the old school was killed at the turn of the 20th century, thanks to one of the biggest fraudsters called Picasso.Then came matisse, malevich,pollack,kandinsky,warhol and alikes with one objective in mind, to cash and milk the public! The art scene became a speculative stock exchange. Selected art galleries,groups and columnist build fame and made tons of money by fraudulent speculation. That's the history of modern art!
Art for the past 1000 years has been about status. Churches forst bouht it, then rich private citizens. And comparing the contexts of today's art with that of the art 150 years ago is none to wise, seeing as THAT world is nothing like ours. Art reflects the culture in which it was made and i think Modern art shows every aspect perfectly.
Wow, you completely missed the substantial parts (which are there)... All were/are serious artists... Just because you don't understand them, doesn't mean they are shit
i love her. she is so intense and so is her work who is itnerested in old sailing ships? no one. art is about intesity, it needs to have a message a feeling an aura!
i can do fine detail in pen and ink and also oil paint.
my subjects are old sailing ships.
i devote many hours to detail .
then someone like this comes along . with no taste no talent . and sells shit in galleries.. to make matters worse the twats that are in charge of the turners prize keep giving it to talentless pretend artists.
Im not 12 and find this all so very tedious. Pay me lots of money and I too will give you pretence by the truck load and even throw in a little tortured soul.
..because it is pretentious claptrap....here goes then....off the top of my head......my first effort of "art" will be ther following......a small child in the mouth of a crocodile, and the crocodile is shaped like a handbag yet the child is laughing...all set on a backdrop of sunshine, famine and stardust.......shit right?
Saw her on TV the other night - exceedingly irratating woman (reminds me of a female version of Patrick Moore) . Never seen so much Trumphed- Up Drivvle in all my life - she belongs to the same school of thought as that Grayson Perry (the bloke in a frock!!) he delivers up the same sort of innate mind-boggling shit as well. The Worlds gone mad if they think this stuff passes for Art.
Some of Emin's work--like the big quilt or comforter sort of things with text across them--remind me a bit of a late Canadian artist who did similar things: Joyce Wieland.
The blanket make me think of a self-created, protective boundary between the self and the things or ideas that cause fear or paranoia, that appear on the outside of them as inflammatory, confused comments. The works certainly stir people up it would seem too as evidenced by the various reactions here. She is very intriguing
An idiot produces meaningless dross, some publicity stooges big it up to make it sound deep, meaningful and consequential and then a load of half-witted pseudo intellectuals with 1. too much time on their hands or 2. too much of daddys money buy into it just so they arent identified as not having whatever special sensibility it takes to get it as deemed by their peers.
Its the modern day Emperor's New Clothes.
Pathetic doesnt begin to describe the entire crock of shit.
Exactly, just like Turner Prize 2007 winner, Mark Wallinger who won by walking around a gallery dressed in a bear costume. The Tate compared him to Michelangelo. Tate curator said I am sure that Michelangelo would love it and say that it was a work of genius. That is both deluded and extremely pretentious of the Tate, all Wallinger did was walk aimlessly around in a bear costume! Google Wallinger+Michelangelo, its reported in Times and also Telegraph.
These people (Emin, Wallinger, Hirst etc)aren't artists. They're just talentless exhibitionists who have hijacked the art world. They're like kids in a wendy house playing at being adults. .
These parasites have ruined English culture. They should be tried for treason against the people and recieve capital punishment. These barbarians are holding the Royal Academy hostage, hopefully Prince Charles turfs them all out when he becomes King.
She's the one that's richer & she's about as deep as a puddle.
Popularity is no guide to quality, the Trustees of the Tate ignored Picasso & Dali, some experts. They will fall for any old irrelevant juvenile twaddle, regardless of merit
It's ground to a halt, you need more than grounding to get off the ground floor, to break new ground you need to be well grounded, then you'll hold your own ground, otherwise, your Art will be groundless.
She's the one that's richer & she's about as deep as a puddle.
Popularity is no guide to quality, the Trustees of the Tate ignored Picasso & Dali, some experts. They will fall for any old irrelevant juvenile twaddle, regardless of merit
It's ground to a halt, you need more than grounding to get off the ground floor, to break new ground you need to be well grounded, then you'll hold your own ground, otherwise, your Art will be groundless.
is she insane? this is probably the art you'd get off a mentaly ill person from an asylum. either that or she is just taking the piss and making the most radical shit possible then call it art and see which idiot buys it!
20 and 21 century art is about the deconstruction of what art is, i.e. towards the suggestive ... everything is allowed, and it's all about mass consumption.
@stevesg92 "if art can be anything than anything it is" ... there is a difference , nowadays anything can be used (as banal as it can get) to portray our culture of mass consumption. and so the message (critique) is pure because the way it is brought is so banal. we aren't overwhelmed with the way it is brought (cfr. Pre-Renaissance). Only without the critique (context or message) this type of art would indeed have no value or difference of everyday life objects.
If you sit with them and still say "this is bullshit," then please (I am not being factitious) elucidate what it is about them that disgusts you. If not, well then I guess I will stop posting and wasting both of our minutes.
I had to write a little essay on a Tracy Emin piece once, my god, it was one of the hardest things ive ever had to do. Trying to say something about nothing is never easy. I had to give that course up, the art world i decided, wasnt for me. What I hate about her work (and other conceptual artists) is just what its lacking. Theres so much an artist can do and shes not doing it. Putting down raw materials and making people imagine is as such an incomplete work.
Perhaps I've lost my right to judge art but I feel it should be breathtaking, a GOOD aspect of life. Not something that you look at and find impossible to decipher. I saw an interview with a guy who worked at the art gallery where they displayed Damien Hirsts dead shark piece. He said 'it gives people a sense of their own mortality' If i had been fed that before walking in the gallery, id probably feel that. Otherwise it would fail to do anything to me. I feel the same about Emin's work...
Its just an opinion anyway, im sorry to bother you with it but these things in life truly irritate me! I'm not an artist so its just a subjective opinion.
I agree with TheBlackPage1, and probably 99% of the rest of the world. To be completely honest, its all rubbish, it really is, and it makes me sick that they get money for it. If something HAS to be in a gallery to be 'ART'. then its not art. I AM an artist, a young one, but a good one. Please read up on the STUCKISTS ;)
This is why, in my opinion, she has gained recognition in the art world. If you believe that she has tricked or gimmicked her way in you every right to do so. I apologize if I personally attacked you: that was never my intention. If you have not seen the pieces, or rather if you have not sat with the pieces then I would say do so before condemning them.
Emin's work is confrontational. It not only engages the viewer in the cliche "IS THIS ART?" discourse, but it can often times be repellent and/or repugnant. But what stands solid is the aesthetic quality. The light works are compositionally astonishing. Her range for symmetry and asymmetry within composition is comparable to any strong artist of our times. Her installation works, which is essentially 90% of her work, deal with space in acute fashion.
That's the largest amount of deluded, pompous, patronizing, male bovine excrement I've ever heard. People like Emin have just hijacked the art world & made a mockery of it. Making a statement doesn't make you an artist.
The reality: this video was made for a course on controversial art. I held Tracey Emin in neutral regard because honestly I had never seen the works in themselves. Then they came to SFMOMA and I was blown away by, what you refer to as, the "grip" of her work. Usually, with possible exceptions being made in conceptual art, the visceral element comes first, then the aesthetic, and if the piece is worth the time the last stage is the analytical (this is my personal process).
If a work is deficient then it should be that much easier to deconstruct and in fact destroy. All you have is rhetoric. I haven't made one assertion related to her work yet and still I am on higher ground simply because I do not resort to hyperbole and melodramatic declaratives. Convince us of what you are saying or don't. But the tautology of "it's bad because it sucks," simply isn't sufficient for persuasion. Reality: it makes you sound like a ranting fool.
Just as I thought, unwilling and unable to explain her work. It must be nice to sit up there on a higher level staring down on us mere mortals, how inferior I feel! Its bad art because it doesnt grip the observer like a true work of art should. If you can come up with a vaid statement, go ahead. Otherwise refrain from personally insulting me. I guess when the argument is already lost, you have nothing else to work with.
Anybody WITH common sense would find this atrocious. I find its existence offensive! Her name and Damien Hirst's make my blood boil. You know, I could wipe my ass on canvas, put it on display and claim it as a work of art and there would be the sorry few who would buy into that..why would you want to, what can you gain? Social status, is that it? Do people want to appear highbrow by claiming to see something there that really isnt?
Not only is that statement hyperbolic (which it obviously is) but it's a comical hyperbole. If you don't like her art please articulate your reasoning instead of throwing out blanket statements that don't elucidate anything of substance.
Oh yeah and Tracey Emin does not have enough stature, even in the art world, to play a major role in the "decadence of modern culture." Use some sense... or at least common sense.
This pathetic excuse for 'art' doesnt elucidate anything of substance so it doesnt deserve an articulate response! I was being humourous when I said she contributed to the de-generation of modern culture.. it does add to the de-generation of modern art. It shows no sign of creative or intellectual input and I feel nothing from it. Please enlighten me on the subject, because I sure as hell dont see why anybody could call her an artist.
I will have to look up the song... it has been a long time since I made this video and honestly I forgot the track but the album has ghosts in the title... possibly. That is accuracy for you.
For a person who has spent a Number of years at art Uni Colleges etc she really is appalling . You dont have to be a great painter to be a great artist. as you dont have to be a Great singer to be a great Performer. But i do draw the line when . the art is less about Figure or expressive art in Materials . and its Now became much more Of a self Promotion and Celebratory ego, self masturbatory Drivel..
skawashers 3 months ago
BOLLOCKS!...
hideouschud 7 months ago
If nothing else, she is a decent quilter! Seriously, the reason it's art for me is simple - there is a clear vision that communicates to the viewer - not just via the objects and messages that form the medium, but also by skilled handling of good old-fashioned form, composition and colour.
Yickbob 9 months ago
'Artist, Tracey Emin'. The world's greatest oxymoron!
whitbyjet65 9 months ago
Art from the beggining was primarily about beauty in all its forms, including suffering. These so called art pieces are simply the grotesque feelings and thoughts of a low life degenerate women, that have been alowed to manifest when they should have stayed hidden.
UnyieldingDefiance 1 year ago
Traceys art fits me like my fave pair of jeans
spiralisedcat 1 year ago
Tracey is a wonderful person, pretty, smart, unique. I have never met her but she seems to be anyway.
warriorprince1010 2 years ago
nasty
closetbeaner 2 years ago
ART?
1stQLR 2 years ago
It's strange that a lot of haters are into that muddled ultra-softfocussed wishywashy middleaged Nu-Fairy-Warrior progrock crap
What's up with that ?
soniccage 2 years ago
Some people are visual, spatial, kinetic... Why do you favour having it written down ? Why is that of more importance than her choice ?
soniccage 2 years ago
For some reason, every time I see Emin's "art" I keep thinking of matches and a can of petrol.
Guncriminal 2 years ago 3
She is the ultimate bottom of the con-artists.The beautiful visual art of the old school was killed at the turn of the 20th century, thanks to one of the biggest fraudsters called Picasso.Then came matisse, malevich,pollack,kandinsky,warhol and alikes with one objective in mind, to cash and milk the public! The art scene became a speculative stock exchange. Selected art galleries,groups and columnist build fame and made tons of money by fraudulent speculation. That's the history of modern art!
vaporizer08 2 years ago
Art for the past 1000 years has been about status. Churches forst bouht it, then rich private citizens. And comparing the contexts of today's art with that of the art 150 years ago is none to wise, seeing as THAT world is nothing like ours. Art reflects the culture in which it was made and i think Modern art shows every aspect perfectly.
chandru1103 2 years ago
Wow, you completely missed the substantial parts (which are there)... All were/are serious artists... Just because you don't understand them, doesn't mean they are shit
soniccage 2 years ago
Her work is provocative and entirely autobiographical, blatantly recycling bits of her life.
Awesome video!
ThroughArts 2 years ago 2
i love her. she is so intense and so is her work who is itnerested in old sailing ships? no one. art is about intesity, it needs to have a message a feeling an aura!
and the songs is great too
spaqqn 2 years ago
God .....the artwork was almost as bad as the music.
mcwinker 2 years ago
i went to EPSOM college of art and design .
i can do fine detail in pen and ink and also oil paint.
my subjects are old sailing ships.
i devote many hours to detail .
then someone like this comes along . with no taste no talent . and sells shit in galleries.. to make matters worse the twats that are in charge of the turners prize keep giving it to talentless pretend artists.
wake up and give it to a real artist .
no wonder ENGLANDS A MESS.
HITTHESKINS 2 years ago
HAHAHA who paints sailing ships...you're wasting your time with the most frivolous form of painting...KITSCH!
chandru1103 2 years ago
How can you even compare the two ? They are different realms of art
soniccage 2 years ago
cant really blame her,more like the idiots who buy the shit..as long as theres a market shell carry on making the crap.
themachman19691 2 years ago 2
degenerate fucking alchoholic slag with no talent. she's an embarrassment.
jasonmhc 2 years ago 3
@jasonmhc embrace your boredom and leave the rest alone.
adachong1 1 year ago
Im not 12 and find this all so very tedious. Pay me lots of money and I too will give you pretence by the truck load and even throw in a little tortured soul.
shenstone 2 years ago
I'm 12 and what is this?
sinbin55671 2 years ago
You are 12 and what is what?
shenstone 2 years ago
I think you don't even understand her work, so how would you be able to copy her ?
soniccage 2 years ago
..because it is pretentious claptrap....here goes then....off the top of my head......my first effort of "art" will be ther following......a small child in the mouth of a crocodile, and the crocodile is shaped like a handbag yet the child is laughing...all set on a backdrop of sunshine, famine and stardust.......shit right?
shenstone 2 years ago
i'm 12 and we are learning about tracey emin at school,we're gonna try making our own appliques.i think tracey is amazing.
ninjaduckie101 3 years ago
Saw her on TV the other night - exceedingly irratating woman (reminds me of a female version of Patrick Moore) . Never seen so much Trumphed- Up Drivvle in all my life - she belongs to the same school of thought as that Grayson Perry (the bloke in a frock!!) he delivers up the same sort of innate mind-boggling shit as well. The Worlds gone mad if they think this stuff passes for Art.
rockchick80s 3 years ago 2
Just stick to Sarah Brightman and Bon Jovi
and
Nu-computerised-warrior-kitsch-Art
lolz
*shakes head*
soniccage 2 years ago
HAHAHAHA Its funny cause it's true.. If you own a fairy or Dragon figurine please don't comment on high art.
chandru1103 2 years ago
Some of Emin's work--like the big quilt or comforter sort of things with text across them--remind me a bit of a late Canadian artist who did similar things: Joyce Wieland.
The blanket make me think of a self-created, protective boundary between the self and the things or ideas that cause fear or paranoia, that appear on the outside of them as inflammatory, confused comments. The works certainly stir people up it would seem too as evidenced by the various reactions here. She is very intriguing
lowryfern 3 years ago
Yawn...
strawberrybang 3 years ago
What a waste of time, just whats the point of it, some people call anything art, it should be banned.
YouFucked2 3 years ago
An idiot produces meaningless dross, some publicity stooges big it up to make it sound deep, meaningful and consequential and then a load of half-witted pseudo intellectuals with 1. too much time on their hands or 2. too much of daddys money buy into it just so they arent identified as not having whatever special sensibility it takes to get it as deemed by their peers.
Its the modern day Emperor's New Clothes.
Pathetic doesnt begin to describe the entire crock of shit.
twattytwattwat 3 years ago 5
Exactly, just like Turner Prize 2007 winner, Mark Wallinger who won by walking around a gallery dressed in a bear costume. The Tate compared him to Michelangelo. Tate curator said I am sure that Michelangelo would love it and say that it was a work of genius. That is both deluded and extremely pretentious of the Tate, all Wallinger did was walk aimlessly around in a bear costume! Google Wallinger+Michelangelo, its reported in Times and also Telegraph.
serotastinofshit 3 years ago
These people (Emin, Wallinger, Hirst etc)aren't artists. They're just talentless exhibitionists who have hijacked the art world. They're like kids in a wendy house playing at being adults. .
bluesugarmonkeys 3 years ago
These parasites have ruined English culture. They should be tried for treason against the people and recieve capital punishment. These barbarians are holding the Royal Academy hostage, hopefully Prince Charles turfs them all out when he becomes King.
Counterrevolutionite 2 years ago
CHARLES THOMPSON THINKS HE CAN OUTWITT TRACEY EMIN, WHAT A BASTARD i SAY IT AND I SAY IT AGANI, WHAT CHARLES NEEDS IS A GOOD HARD SHAG!
MIDJOBZ 3 years ago
art is beyond ..... senses of sadness and joy, eternal expression thats why they sit in museums for ever.
MIDJOBZ 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
She's the one that's richer & she's about as deep as a puddle.
Popularity is no guide to quality, the Trustees of the Tate ignored Picasso & Dali, some experts. They will fall for any old irrelevant juvenile twaddle, regardless of merit
It's ground to a halt, you need more than grounding to get off the ground floor, to break new ground you need to be well grounded, then you'll hold your own ground, otherwise, your Art will be groundless.
1cylynt1 4 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
She's the one that's richer & she's about as deep as a puddle.
Popularity is no guide to quality, the Trustees of the Tate ignored Picasso & Dali, some experts. They will fall for any old irrelevant juvenile twaddle, regardless of merit
It's ground to a halt, you need more than grounding to get off the ground floor, to break new ground you need to be well grounded, then you'll hold your own ground, otherwise, your Art will be groundless.
cylynt1 4 years ago
is she insane? this is probably the art you'd get off a mentaly ill person from an asylum. either that or she is just taking the piss and making the most radical shit possible then call it art and see which idiot buys it!
wurth987456 4 years ago
20 and 21 century art is about the deconstruction of what art is, i.e. towards the suggestive ... everything is allowed, and it's all about mass consumption.
elveto88 4 years ago 4
@elveto88 That's the problem though... if art can be anything than anything it is but that makes art very uncritical and dubious
stevesg92 1 year ago
@stevesg92 "if art can be anything than anything it is" ... there is a difference , nowadays anything can be used (as banal as it can get) to portray our culture of mass consumption. and so the message (critique) is pure because the way it is brought is so banal. we aren't overwhelmed with the way it is brought (cfr. Pre-Renaissance). Only without the critique (context or message) this type of art would indeed have no value or difference of everyday life objects.
elveto88 1 year ago
part 4
If you sit with them and still say "this is bullshit," then please (I am not being factitious) elucidate what it is about them that disgusts you. If not, well then I guess I will stop posting and wasting both of our minutes.
johnnyredwing 4 years ago
I had to write a little essay on a Tracy Emin piece once, my god, it was one of the hardest things ive ever had to do. Trying to say something about nothing is never easy. I had to give that course up, the art world i decided, wasnt for me. What I hate about her work (and other conceptual artists) is just what its lacking. Theres so much an artist can do and shes not doing it. Putting down raw materials and making people imagine is as such an incomplete work.
TheBlackPage1 4 years ago
Perhaps I've lost my right to judge art but I feel it should be breathtaking, a GOOD aspect of life. Not something that you look at and find impossible to decipher. I saw an interview with a guy who worked at the art gallery where they displayed Damien Hirsts dead shark piece. He said 'it gives people a sense of their own mortality' If i had been fed that before walking in the gallery, id probably feel that. Otherwise it would fail to do anything to me. I feel the same about Emin's work...
TheBlackPage1 4 years ago
Its just an opinion anyway, im sorry to bother you with it but these things in life truly irritate me! I'm not an artist so its just a subjective opinion.
TheBlackPage1 4 years ago
I agree with TheBlackPage1, and probably 99% of the rest of the world. To be completely honest, its all rubbish, it really is, and it makes me sick that they get money for it. If something HAS to be in a gallery to be 'ART'. then its not art. I AM an artist, a young one, but a good one. Please read up on the STUCKISTS ;)
ribena0warrior 4 years ago
part 3
This is why, in my opinion, she has gained recognition in the art world. If you believe that she has tricked or gimmicked her way in you every right to do so. I apologize if I personally attacked you: that was never my intention. If you have not seen the pieces, or rather if you have not sat with the pieces then I would say do so before condemning them.
johnnyredwing 4 years ago
part 2
Emin's work is confrontational. It not only engages the viewer in the cliche "IS THIS ART?" discourse, but it can often times be repellent and/or repugnant. But what stands solid is the aesthetic quality. The light works are compositionally astonishing. Her range for symmetry and asymmetry within composition is comparable to any strong artist of our times. Her installation works, which is essentially 90% of her work, deal with space in acute fashion.
johnnyredwing 4 years ago
That's the largest amount of deluded, pompous, patronizing, male bovine excrement I've ever heard. People like Emin have just hijacked the art world & made a mockery of it. Making a statement doesn't make you an artist.
bluesugarmonkeys 3 years ago 5
The reality: this video was made for a course on controversial art. I held Tracey Emin in neutral regard because honestly I had never seen the works in themselves. Then they came to SFMOMA and I was blown away by, what you refer to as, the "grip" of her work. Usually, with possible exceptions being made in conceptual art, the visceral element comes first, then the aesthetic, and if the piece is worth the time the last stage is the analytical (this is my personal process).
johnnyredwing 4 years ago
If a work is deficient then it should be that much easier to deconstruct and in fact destroy. All you have is rhetoric. I haven't made one assertion related to her work yet and still I am on higher ground simply because I do not resort to hyperbole and melodramatic declaratives. Convince us of what you are saying or don't. But the tautology of "it's bad because it sucks," simply isn't sufficient for persuasion. Reality: it makes you sound like a ranting fool.
johnnyredwing 4 years ago
Just as I thought, unwilling and unable to explain her work. It must be nice to sit up there on a higher level staring down on us mere mortals, how inferior I feel! Its bad art because it doesnt grip the observer like a true work of art should. If you can come up with a vaid statement, go ahead. Otherwise refrain from personally insulting me. I guess when the argument is already lost, you have nothing else to work with.
TheBlackPage1 4 years ago 3
Actually, one could interpret her work as Hyperbollocks, thanks for giving me that word to work with :)
TheBlackPage1 4 years ago
Anybody WITH common sense would find this atrocious. I find its existence offensive! Her name and Damien Hirst's make my blood boil. You know, I could wipe my ass on canvas, put it on display and claim it as a work of art and there would be the sorry few who would buy into that..why would you want to, what can you gain? Social status, is that it? Do people want to appear highbrow by claiming to see something there that really isnt?
TheBlackPage1 4 years ago
"adds to the de-generation of modern culture."
Not only is that statement hyperbolic (which it obviously is) but it's a comical hyperbole. If you don't like her art please articulate your reasoning instead of throwing out blanket statements that don't elucidate anything of substance.
Oh yeah and Tracey Emin does not have enough stature, even in the art world, to play a major role in the "decadence of modern culture." Use some sense... or at least common sense.
johnnyredwing 4 years ago
This pathetic excuse for 'art' doesnt elucidate anything of substance so it doesnt deserve an articulate response! I was being humourous when I said she contributed to the de-generation of modern culture.. it does add to the de-generation of modern art. It shows no sign of creative or intellectual input and I feel nothing from it. Please enlighten me on the subject, because I sure as hell dont see why anybody could call her an artist.
TheBlackPage1 4 years ago
This is pretentious bullshit. The womans work is a disgrace to modern art and only adds to the de-generation of modern culture.
TheBlackPage1 4 years ago
I will have to look up the song... it has been a long time since I made this video and honestly I forgot the track but the album has ghosts in the title... possibly. That is accuracy for you.
johnnyredwing 4 years ago
which Nurse with Wound song is this?
Hellothur 4 years ago
Emin's a fucking legend!Anyone who say's she's not is just plain ignorant and cant open their minds to her amazing work.Tracey rocks!!!
scruffymk 4 years ago
fatscumfilth: why do say degrading stuff about the artist? are you jelouse? are you sad? let tracey paint in peace!!!
MIDJOBZ 4 years ago
It's difficult to believe she is considered one of this generations great artists.
jerrylambert 4 years ago
you have to see the real thing not yours stupid pensamientos
motosita 4 years ago