Gaida: Zur Situation der deutschen Volksgruppe in der Republik Polen

[easychan]

Eine Sache wuerde mich jetzt allerdings schon theoretischerweise interessieren: Angenommen, besagte Territoren wuerden wieder an Dt. angeschlossen werden-Dort leben Millionen Polen, die nat. kein Dt. sprechen. Was dann? Werden die dann zwangsweise "ausgewandert"?

[easychan]

Strohmannargument,darum geht es hier gar nicht. Meinethalben muessen die Polen in Dt. keinen Minderheitenstatus haben aber Deutschland ist IMMER noch an den Vertrag gebunden und eine derartige Ungleichheit bez. der Finanzierung zuungunsten der Polen in Deutschland ist einfach inakzeptabel.

[easychan]

Was interessant ist ist aber die Tatsache dass die sog. "Deutschen" (von denen aber um die 70%! slawische/germanisierte Familiennamen tragen..) immer weniger z.B Deutsch lernen wollen. Anscheinend muessen wir uns um deren Loyalitaet zum pol. Staat keine sorgen machen.

[easychan]

Wobei, ich muss schon sagen, so mit polnischen Akzent klingt Deutsch ja richtig sympatisch :-D

[easychan]

Zitat:...auch noch in siebziger Jahren...auf der eine Seite....----Deutsche Sprache schwere Sprache,auch fuer Polen (Gaida=urpolnischer Familienname). Das die pol. Gesellschaft eher unbegeistert ist koennte eventuell mit der Geschichte (googelt mal "Selbstschutz") und der Tatsache zusammenhaengen dass eine Miniminderheit (150 000) im Jahr 25 Mio. Euro fuer Kultur und Sprache kassiert waehrend Dt. 1 500 000 Dt-Polen 300 000 zur Verfuegung stellt, in klarster Missachtung des Nachbar-Vertrages.

[OstpreussenTV]

@easychan Die deutsche Volksgruppe in Schlesien und Ostpreußen hat nicht den gleichen Stellenwert wie polnische (oder sonstige) Einwanderer in der Bundesrepublik.

[easychan]

@OstpreussenTV

In der Tat nicht. Ihre Stellung ist BEDEUTEND besser als die von Einwanderern bez. der Polen (deren Minderheitenstatus von Hitler eine knappe Woche nach dem Ueberfall einkassiert wurde, diese Entscheidung wird bis heute passiv aufrecht erhalten).

[OstpreussenTV]

@easychan Wenn man die völkerrechtswidrige Annexion Schlesiens, Ostpreußens, Pommerns usw. durch Polen rückgängig machen möchte, kann man in Deutschland gerne auch wieder einen Minderheitenstatus für die polnische Bevölkerung einführen. In Westdeutschland sind und bleiben die Polen jedoch nicht mehr und nicht weniger als Einwanderer.

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@OstpreussenTV Träum weiter:) Ihr habt Unsere Ost gebiete an den Soviet Union verkauft (Molotow-Ribbentrop-Pakt) also die Alliierten haben Euch auch Eure Territorien genommen. 

[OstpreussenTV]

@RitterDesHimmels1 Polen hat im Osten praktisch nichts verloren, was ihm zugestanden hätte.

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@OstpreussenTV Nur zwei von vier wichtigsten statte (Wilna und Lemberg) - praktisch nichts;)

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@OstpreussenTV In my opinion, after WWII Poland should gain former German territories for our effort in defeating the Nazis. When it goes to our eastern borderlands - for centuries they were an integral part of Rzeczpospolita, so they should remain as part of Poland. Even according to the soviet (anti-Polish) census, Poles were the biggest (40%) ethnic group living there.

[OstpreussenTV]

The Polish population was a minority in more or less every region of the territories that were occupied by Poland after the Polish-Soviet war. And anyway, Poland expelled practically the same number of people (Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Belarussians, Germans...) from central Poland in and after 1945. Even if you accept cold-blooded mathematics as a basis, there would not have been a need for futher annexations and expulsions.

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@OstpreussenTV Kresy (Polish eastern borderlands) were a multi-ethnic land. I will never agree that every territory which was not inhibited in 100% by Poles, should have been annexed by the bloody and criminal Soviet Union.

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@OstpreussenTV After 1945 there existed no sovereign and free Poland - only a Soviet controlled puppet state. So we cannot talk about a Polish internal policy at that time. The Big Three decided about the expulsions - face the truth. You should be happy, for the destruction of Europe even further German territories should be annexed.

[OstpreussenTV]

@RitterDesHimmels1 A typically Polish argumentation: All the others are to blame and we are innocent angels! - It's ridiculous to try and hide behind the allies. The occupation, annexation and ethnic cleansing of eastern Germany was planned long before the war, a war which Poland helped to trigger.

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@OstpreussenTV Ohh and for Germans it is typical that you are trying to lay the blame for the war on someone else. It's just like with the propaganda articles like: "Hitlers europäische Helfer beim Judenmord".

[OstpreussenTV]

@RitterDesHimmels1 It was people like American histrorian Jan Tomasz Gross with Polish-Jewish roots who brought up the topic - and rightly so. It shows even more clearly how absurd it is to use evil deeds committed by one side as a superficial pretext to justify new cimes like the ethnic cleansing of eastern Germany.

[RitterDesHimmels1]

I do not support ethnic cleanings policy or the expulsions of Germans or any other ethnic groups. In my opinion after WWII the boarders shouldn't be changed at all. I know that cities like Breslau or Stettin were indeed German cities. Polish government in exile never wanted to annex such big territories,because Poles knew that it would only make Poland dependent from the Soviet Union. What I've said before about keeping "Kresy" and gaining German territories, was meant only to be a provocation:)

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@OstpreussenTV It's quite obvious that Stalin was as dangerous as Hitler. I do not think that anything can justify soviet crimes on German, Polish, Belorussian or Ukrainian civilians.

[OstpreussenTV]

@RitterDesHimmels1 Finally something we can agree on! :-) Unfortunately a lot of West Europeans (including West Germans) are not aware of the monstrous characters of BOTH totalitarian ideologies of the 20th century.

The Polish and German expellees are actually now cooperating in the European Union of Exiled and Expelled People (EUEEP) (Google for it!) in their common struggle for human rights.

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@OstpreussenTV I've checked your website. It's quite nice, it reminds me of Polish sites about "Kresy" - about old Polish cities like Grodno, Brest, Kėdainiai, Kaunas, Vilnius and Lviv. There exist in Poland many people who sympathize with our former eastern borderlands. But in my opinion it's already lost and we can't change the past. I agree with Willy Brandt on that issue.

[OstpreussenTV]

Your Rzeczpospolita idea was even rejected in Versailles. For the same reason Germany could claim huge parts of France (not just Elsass-Lothringen), northern Italy, all of the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Austria etc., all of which used to belong to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Your claims are just as ridiculous as that.

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@easychan Die Deutschen sind auch Einwanderern in Schlesien.

[OstpreussenTV]

In this case, even the original Slavs would be immigrants. Anyway, as you say yourselves, there are a lot of names like Pawelka, Hupka, Czaja, Hriberski, Solenski, Karkoska etc. among the Silesian and East Prussian expellees. You abuse THEIR history and culutural heritage for YOUR political purposes. And in East Prussia, we also have Old Prussian names like Parplies, Schallies, Barsuhn etc.

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@OstpreussenTV My ancestors are native inhabitants of Silesia - they lived here before the Germans came. For me there is difference between the German and Polish immigrants.

[OstpreussenTV]

@RitterDesHimmels1 Some of mine lived in East Prussia before German or Masovian selltlers came to East Prussia. Mr. Pawelka's, Mr. Hupka's and Mr. Czaja's ancestor's are typical Silesians as well. And as you cannot convincingly hijck their history, identity and culture, the Polish stance over Silesia will alwas remain that of a minority among the original population.

[RitterDesHimmels1]

@RitterDesHimmels1 "there is NO difference" - sorry