OK, let's say you've acquired 1000 hours of "happenings" and you understand 70-80% of what you hear, how do you deal with the speaking part? I believe there will be problems in the beginning and it will take some time to speak fluently. Should you accept help from others when you make mistakes? Should you at this point use any additional aids (books , grammar, making speeches, etc)? What if you don't know the word for something, should you ask?
@jeminijem1 In exactly the same way as you did everything else. Speaking is 'largely' the natural result (by-product) of enough input. Regarding the correction of mistakes, what I found personally and many others have confirmed is that it simply doesn't make any difference. I could 'hear' the problem before they could correct it [provided I was speaking from a source of enough input.]
How would one explain why people who have lived in this country (I live in the US) for YEARS still speak in broken English and act like they don't even *understand* you? They have constant exposure to the language, but aren't fluent as you imply they *should* be.
@sonicfox Of course this is the most common thing we observe. There are two main reasons: 1) people usually "study" before hand which actually limits what they will then learn naturally, and 2) adults are generally focused on what the words they're trying to hear or say, the amount of other input is minimal. For a detailed explanation of this, read Dr. Brown's book "From the Outside In" at algworld dot com/archives.
@algworld Thank you for your reply. I'll definitely check out Dr. Brown's book. Your method is interesting, and actually seems like common sense. I wish there was a course such as yours taught around here. I hope you can someday offer distant learning courses. Thank you again.
@algworld that is the most awesome book ever on the topic. anyone interested in studying other languages should definately check it out! dr brown knows whats up!
I would value your input on my method called goldlist method. The ideas behind that are that we can still use the unconscious mind, the long-term memory, to learn vocabulary, rather than cram it with the short-term memory. Chomsky said that a child over 5 couldn't learn his language anymore. My view is that it is not that we lose something at 5, but that we gain the ability to learn consciously, but that is good for other types of learning than language learning.
Firstly, what you say is 110% true. Secondly, please get me a 7 year old child that can comprehend (read, write, listen, etc.) at an adult level or talk about physics or construction projects, for example. :)
In the Thai program, our experience has been that adults do indeed acquire all the redundant grammar bits, etc., but only when they don't use the adult ability of working out the language explicitly.
Perhaps we don't have any test cases where adults have had this opportunity in learning English.
I think that what people tend to miss, is the simple fact that adult language educational systems are all based on what adults can do and children cannot. It's not therefore surprising that we would end up thinking that adults no longer have the ability children have! They don't even try. Our program shows that adults, when given the right conditions and opportunity, are every bit able to acquire language as a child does. The best way? Who does better at language learning than a child?
I had a thought. There are some people who have memories based on emotions and can remember back to infancy like myself, and others who have their memories tied to language so they remember from 5yrs old or so and up. Is there a difference in the way these sort of people perform or learn?
I expect that learning styles are related to methods, techniques, etc. and are at a much different level that how the brain works and actually stores information. While personality may affect things at some level of learning, at the most basic levels, we must all be very much the same. As language acquisition by children is the same regardless of personality, it seems that this would also hold true for natural language acquisition by adults.
I always thought there should be something like this. I see kids listening a lot, and then every now and then we correct them, and answer questions, and point out what things are on purpose- quiz them. "where's your nose?" etc, lol.
Our thinking on this is that for all of us, our brains store certain kinds of information. In no way can that be a word or a part of language. Going deeper then, we have to look at what a 'word' is made up of.
It seems to us that the brain can only store experiences. (of course going deeper we have electrical impulses and chemicals). Therefore our program is based on the idea of providing learners with as many experiences as possible with the language [added on].
Even though it's true what you've said, there's a major difference between children and adults. Children minds can learn information naturaly, times better then adults can. In my opinion, the most effective way to learn a language, is to combine understanding, reading, speaking and writing into a single body lesson. So the student is taught to understand both a speech and text, that will provide him a better ability to speak a write at once! You cannot separate the langauge into 'parts'.
Our experience has been that while adults and children are definitely different, adults can and do learn naturally - and comparisons with children have shown that they even learn faster, though not as purely, as children.
I also agree with you that we cannot separate language in parts - but it's not natural to begin everything at once - there is a natural process aparently.
OK, let's say you've acquired 1000 hours of "happenings" and you understand 70-80% of what you hear, how do you deal with the speaking part? I believe there will be problems in the beginning and it will take some time to speak fluently. Should you accept help from others when you make mistakes? Should you at this point use any additional aids (books , grammar, making speeches, etc)? What if you don't know the word for something, should you ask?
jeminijem1 1 year ago
@jeminijem1 In exactly the same way as you did everything else. Speaking is 'largely' the natural result (by-product) of enough input. Regarding the correction of mistakes, what I found personally and many others have confirmed is that it simply doesn't make any difference. I could 'hear' the problem before they could correct it [provided I was speaking from a source of enough input.]
algworld 1 year ago
How would one explain why people who have lived in this country (I live in the US) for YEARS still speak in broken English and act like they don't even *understand* you? They have constant exposure to the language, but aren't fluent as you imply they *should* be.
sonicfox 1 year ago
@sonicfox Of course this is the most common thing we observe. There are two main reasons: 1) people usually "study" before hand which actually limits what they will then learn naturally, and 2) adults are generally focused on what the words they're trying to hear or say, the amount of other input is minimal. For a detailed explanation of this, read Dr. Brown's book "From the Outside In" at algworld dot com/archives.
algworld 1 year ago
@algworld Thank you for your reply. I'll definitely check out Dr. Brown's book. Your method is interesting, and actually seems like common sense. I wish there was a course such as yours taught around here. I hope you can someday offer distant learning courses. Thank you again.
sonicfox 1 year ago
@algworld that is the most awesome book ever on the topic. anyone interested in studying other languages should definately check it out! dr brown knows whats up!
worldtravel101 1 year ago
I would value your input on my method called goldlist method. The ideas behind that are that we can still use the unconscious mind, the long-term memory, to learn vocabulary, rather than cram it with the short-term memory. Chomsky said that a child over 5 couldn't learn his language anymore. My view is that it is not that we lose something at 5, but that we gain the ability to learn consciously, but that is good for other types of learning than language learning.
usenetposts 2 years ago
Firstly, what you say is 110% true. Secondly, please get me a 7 year old child that can comprehend (read, write, listen, etc.) at an adult level or talk about physics or construction projects, for example. :)
19fas88 2 years ago
In the Thai program, our experience has been that adults do indeed acquire all the redundant grammar bits, etc., but only when they don't use the adult ability of working out the language explicitly.
Perhaps we don't have any test cases where adults have had this opportunity in learning English.
algworld 2 years ago
I think that what people tend to miss, is the simple fact that adult language educational systems are all based on what adults can do and children cannot. It's not therefore surprising that we would end up thinking that adults no longer have the ability children have! They don't even try. Our program shows that adults, when given the right conditions and opportunity, are every bit able to acquire language as a child does. The best way? Who does better at language learning than a child?
algworld 2 years ago
Comment removed
lucindahickey 2 years ago
I had a thought. There are some people who have memories based on emotions and can remember back to infancy like myself, and others who have their memories tied to language so they remember from 5yrs old or so and up. Is there a difference in the way these sort of people perform or learn?
faithm 3 years ago
I expect that learning styles are related to methods, techniques, etc. and are at a much different level that how the brain works and actually stores information. While personality may affect things at some level of learning, at the most basic levels, we must all be very much the same. As language acquisition by children is the same regardless of personality, it seems that this would also hold true for natural language acquisition by adults.
algworld 2 years ago
I always thought there should be something like this. I see kids listening a lot, and then every now and then we correct them, and answer questions, and point out what things are on purpose- quiz them. "where's your nose?" etc, lol.
faithm 3 years ago
Our thinking on this is that for all of us, our brains store certain kinds of information. In no way can that be a word or a part of language. Going deeper then, we have to look at what a 'word' is made up of.
It seems to us that the brain can only store experiences. (of course going deeper we have electrical impulses and chemicals). Therefore our program is based on the idea of providing learners with as many experiences as possible with the language [added on].
algworld 3 years ago
Even though it's true what you've said, there's a major difference between children and adults. Children minds can learn information naturaly, times better then adults can. In my opinion, the most effective way to learn a language, is to combine understanding, reading, speaking and writing into a single body lesson. So the student is taught to understand both a speech and text, that will provide him a better ability to speak a write at once! You cannot separate the langauge into 'parts'.
Chiefman1990 3 years ago
Our experience has been that while adults and children are definitely different, adults can and do learn naturally - and comparisons with children have shown that they even learn faster, though not as purely, as children.
I also agree with you that we cannot separate language in parts - but it's not natural to begin everything at once - there is a natural process aparently.
algworld 3 years ago