Pope Benedict and the Logic of Gratuity

[thoughtadventure]

Archbishop Desmond Tutu's book "No Future Without Forgiveness" argued very powerfully that gratuitous forgiveness of Apartheid atrocities was a mighty healing in South Africa. I dare anyone to read that book and not be deeply moved.

[havock89]

The church has a huge infrastructure, which is worth a great deal yes, but it is ministering to about 500 million catholics, and will to the next generation as well. Talk about a blinkered concept of wealth.

[ammazzamoro]

Perhaps, it is more accurately said She is ministering to more than a billion Catholics and untold millions of non-Catholics, not for proselytization but for no reason other than the Logic of Gratuity.

[havock89]

Yes, I was being purposefully conservative, but non-catholics being minsitered to, as well is an important point.

[jeravincer]

great talk Father - one of your best

[SeriousVoyager]

The Catholic Church is the largest charity organization in the world, and by the way, ran a deficit last year. Really a silly thing to bring up actually...Have no fear Fr., some of us actually contemplate what your actually talking about. Brilliant video's. Thank You.

[steveblaxton]

I think a good follow up to this video, Fr. Barron, would be your thoughts on B16's Spe Salvi. Even if not in response to the comments here, I think it'd be a good addition to your collection of commentaries.

I enjoy your logical clarity, keep up the good work, especially with the "Catholicism Project."

[TELEMACUS800]

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the misery and death that has been spread in Africa by the secularist imperialism of the West, which assigns "religion" or the "pope" as its scapegoat to mask its own genocidal tendencies.

[RPFS2008]

Western States have done, and still do, terrible things. I don't support or believe in the State.

However, the misery and death that the Pope is spreading, lying about contraception etc. is done in the name of religious dogmatism and you cannot just brush it off and blame Bush, Blair, Obama, Brown etc. Infact to do so would be disingenuous to say the least. The Pope is not a scapegoat.

[TELEMACUS800]

The Pope is being used for a scapegoat to deflect attention away from the harm the secularist powers have ravaged across Africa and the failure of their own policies. You really that there is a shortage of contraception in Africa? Do you think the Vatican has a navy that is blockading the import of contraceptives to Africa? You think that the Vatican has been directing public health efforts and international aid efforts in Africa? Whose fault is it when their policies fail: the pope!

[RPFS2008]

You're clearly unreasonable. And, judging by your claim that there isn't a shortage of contraception in Africa - which btw is partly down to Bush and his religious idealogy of making life as difficult as possible for family planning clinics in Africa (don't take my word for it have a look at the Acts), you're just as misinformed.

If you can close your eyes to the Pope's actions in Africa or agree with them then that is up to you, atleast you're not joking about it like 'Father' Barren, I guess.

[wood9670]

I know its been a month but I seriously urge you to google Dr. Edward C. Green Director, AIDS Prevention Research Project at the Harvard School of Public Health and Center for Population and Development Studies.

He's an agnostic and liberal and he confirms that the research actually shows that condoms hinder the fight against AIDS in Africa. You can read the case studies yourself on his profile page.

[shedininja001]

we should figure out a way to apply this logic to the current war we are having with the teroists and such

[troyboulay]

Wouldn't there always be a 'reward' for the faithful in the form of eternal bliss? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but who is the more altruistic person the one who returns the wallet and refuses the reward offered, or the one who returns the wallet and accepts the reward?

(Cont. Below)

[troyboulay]

What I'm saying is; if you believe that, while not necessarily a reward, heaven is at the very least a side effect of altruism, would the commission of altruistic deeds with absolutely no belief in a beneficial reward/side effect be; in a sense 'worth more'.

Mother Teresa, I think is a great example. I know, the darkness and doubt of the existence of God by Mother Teresa is argued to be 'a gift from god' 'a test that drove her to do even more' etc.

(Cont. Below)

[troyboulay]

But, it does raise the question, if, She "without God in her head or heart", for 50+ years, But still rose every morning, and did the work that 'god' would want, 'if he does exist'

Doesn't that introduce the possibility of being a good "Christian" -reading the bible, enjoying the bible, learning the history of it, enjoying biblically inspired art, poetry, literature etc. and modeling your life (or trying to live) based on the red letters - without believing in the supernatural.

(Cont. Below)

[troyboulay]

Does it have to be 'True' to be 'Good'?  I someone doesn't accept that the events in the bible (the historical account type books) actually happened, is it not still possible to say "it doesn't matter" Whether any of it really happened, or whether there is an afterlife or not doesn't change the 'red letter' message of peace and fellowship and altruism and the golden rule.

(Cont. Below .. Last one I promise)

[troyboulay]

So, if someone were to step beyond the bounds of a single religion, take these core values of peace, fellowship, altruism, personal worth and inclusiveness. do away with the reward for good and punishment for bad (not the law.. you know what I mean).. Would that not be the Logic of Gratuity for conflicting religious ideology's?

(ok, done, sorry that was so long.. :)

[wordonfirevideo]

The "reward" is not some arbitrary recompense. The reward is the act itself.  Heaven isn't a prize that we win for loving; heaven is loving. Period.

[wordonfirevideo]

The primary love that we are meant to foster is love for God, who is the highest good. Then we love others for the sake of God. We don't love others in order to get a reward from God; we love God for his own sake and then we love everything else that participates in God.

[wordonfirevideo]

I'm not sure which "Bible" you're enjoying if you don't believe in some transcendent dimension. I mean the inner logic of the Bible unravels if there is no God.

[troyboulay]

I certinly don't like all parts of the bible, I could list but I'm sure you've already thought about the parts that I don't particularly like.

However, I still think the bible is important to read, even if I can't believe it. Caravaggio's Death of the Virgin for instance is all fine and good to just look at, But personally I appreciate it more knowing inspiration, and controversy that surrounded it .. and frankly can still be a healthy debate.

[troyboulay]

I just don't think that "belief" in a work is required to appreciate and try to understand; 1. where it came from & 2. how it inspired derivative works for centuries.

[wordonfirevideo]

I'm glad you appreciate the Bible as literature and moral teaching. Keep at it, under the guidance of the church, and it will lead you deeper.