For every spamming graffitti "post" "Rylucero" posts, each once is a bounce of the rubber walls in the rubber room he is in, tied up in a white straight jacket with foam coming out of his mouth...BOING! ( thats a post! ) BOING! ( thats a post! ) BOING! ( thats a post! ) BOING! ( thats a post! ) BOING! ( thats a post! )
When the "posts" stop, its because he fell to the floor and is trying to get up, but he rolls along the floor screaming woes instead at the walls, because NOBODY IS LISTENING.
Woe unto the spiritually dead, to fools who have much admiration for false prophets such as these, “Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Isaiah 6:10, Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.” Ezekiel 12:2
Woe unto the spiritually dead, those who are callous, to those who are heartless, to those who are arrogant and to those who are demanding, “For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth. I will break down your stubborn pride. Psalm 10:3 They close up their callous hearts, and their mouths speak with arrogance Psalm 17:10 Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous.” Psalm 31:18
Woe unto the spiritually dead, to those who are wise in their own eyes, “The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity. Psalms 94:11. Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death. Proverbs 10:2 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. James 1:26 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.” Psalms 10:7
Woe unto the spiritually dead, to those who fall at the feet of these abominations of deceit, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?” Jeremiah 5:31
Woe unto the spiritually dead, to those who have chosen to venerate these despicable false prophets and false teachers, “Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name, I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Jeremiah 14:14, That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD.” Isaiah 30-9
Woe unto the spiritually dead, the scriptures speak to those who distort truth, and who give reverence to fools, “ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.” 2 Peter 2:1-2
Woe unto the spiritually dead, those who are covetousness, who are arrogant, professing much, but knowing little, “And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 2 Peter 2:3 Proud and haughty scorner is his name, who dealeth in proud wrath Proverbs 21:24, The fear of the LORD is to hate evil, pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. Proverbs 8:13
Woe unto the spiritually dead, the scriptures speak to those who have unhumbled hearts, Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not: Jeremiah 5:21 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. John 12:40, Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Isaiah 6:9
Woe unto the spiritually dead, the scriptures speak to fools who pay homage to these false prophets, and false teachers, it speaks to the profane, to the vile and to the wicked, “Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits Isaiah 30:10 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon.” Isaiah 30:12
Woe unto the faint of heart, Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience., Ephesians 5:6 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? Deuteronomy 32:27
"1:49" we dont have to do anything to be saved. Thats religion, religion is spelled do do do do do and christianity is spelled done!!!!!!!!!!! Jesus already did it. All we must do is recognize that and accept Jesus as our personal Lord and savior.
@dylanhaskell25 Luke 9:23,24 doesn't support that at all, and this was Christ Himself speaking. The cost of following Christ is your life, and anything short of that reveals what one truly believes.
so you're saying NOT to preach the truth then? Fire in Brimstone is the harsh reality unbelievers are going to face? SORRY but I don't believe in teaching lies....
it's all well and good to pray for this man and pray he repents before it's too late but in the mean time Christians better be sounded the trumpet to alert others otherwise, the BLOOD is on your hands just as the Bible says!
Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Eze 33:4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
Eze 33:5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
the hour is late and the truth needs to be told...the BIBLE says: Eze 33:2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
Eze 33:3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
where is the quoting of scripture to back up Osteen's position...stop it with this FEEL GOOD stuff and start telling the people the TRUTH...hell is real and you're going there if you don't repent....tired of all this feel good stuff...God is a God of wrath, He's a jealous God and HE will NOT be mocked....this is mocking GOD...
@wendyresqlady true, but he's also a god of grace, and is quick to forgive if u repent and seek him. fire and brimstone does not attract new believers. love and grace does.
@wendyresqlady Yes He is a jeolous God but the God i know, the God of the Bible wants you to love Him and therefore loving Him avoid Hell. Not love Him to avoid Hell but BECAUSE you love Him you recieve His grace and are granted the PRIVILEDGE of spending eternity with God in heaven and in turn avoid Hell.
and by the way Todd Friel The fruit of someones life being changed is also part of the sanctification or proving of what God is doing. Stop changing Gods words and stop attacking the Man of God Joel Olstein. Todd you are attacking every word that Joel is saying being purposly argumentive and sowing discord toward the man of God.
I think it is ashame that radio host and others twist Joels words and the intentions of his word, and then insinuate that Joel is for himself and not God. Quit twisting Joels words trying to discredit him You should be ashamed and be careful for even you will have to answer for every idle word!!!!!
@Tobytrim I take it from your comment that you don't agree with the Bible. Todd is directly holding Osteen accountable to the Bible. Osteen fails...miserably. Do you think holding people accountable to the Scriptures is "crazy"? If so, why are you watching Christian videos?
@EffieReal ." Do you think holding people accountable to the Scriptures is "crazy"? "
I'm an atheist.....so .....yeah!!,,,,??!
That said, Osteen is far too boring for me to know anythng about, or have any interest in. However, Todd Friel is one of the "Way of the Master" team of equivocators.
And even granting the ridiculous possibility of any "God", based on biblical mythology, never was the 1st commandment so broken, as Ray seems to manage, in his self tailored version of Yahweh, or Jesus.
@Tobytrim So you really don't understand any of the points Todd is making in this video. Admittedly, you are without knowledge of God or Christ or his Word. The Word of God is what Christians are held accountable to. In order to criticize someone in taking on this task, you would necessarily have to fully understand the arguments being presented. You clearly do not.
@EffieReal "So you really don't understand any of the points Todd is making in this video"
Of course I understand. Todd is a psychotic working for Ray Comfort, who wants people to believe (and maybe believe themselves) that all existence was incanted by another psychotic, with the morality and emotional stability of a jealous, spoilt child.
Are you really so gullible as to attach any validity to this shite? This nutjob is promoting an evil "God" which needs it's ego stroked -"OR ELSE!!"-Lol!
@Tobytrim You're funny. You hold yourself as a moral authority? You judge God? Come to think of it, that's not really funny. It really won't be for you if you persist in such utter foolishness. No, you do not have the moral authority to judge God. You of course have been given to freedom to do so (and mock Him as you do) but it's a damnable (literally) bad position to put yourself into. You are an arrogant human. Your pride is killing you. It's a shame. I'll pray for you, seriously.
@EffieReal "You hold yourself as a moral authority? You judge God?" Yes!! Of course I do!! - And so do you ! Unless your an automaton who has no ability to think independently or possessing of free will. I have as much right to judge god against my moral standard, and find him lacking, as you do to say he is "morally perfect".
Morality is relative and subjective to a human mind, although agreed and reasoned into various cultural axioms. It is on this wejudge ANYONE'S morality!
@Tobytrim "Morality is relative..." now THAT is an utterly frightening position for a human to espouse. I mean, really have you thought that one through to it's logical conclusions? Subjective morality? That opens the gateway for any egregiousness cruelty in the name of say...pragmatism or 'greater good'. We have seen this time and again historically. That is an untenable position. You must know this. That is why morality is by its nature outside of ourselves and imparted as a gift.
@Tobytrim If you understood how "debate" works you would not have asked me that question. This is not a debate. There is no moderator. There are no rules. This is a youtube discussion.
My reasoning on "morality is relative" was in the paragraph that you must have skipped over whilst replying to the first sentence.
@EffieReal "This is not a debate. There is no moderator. There are no rules. This is a youtube discussion" Simply to avoid another pointless digression, I'll rephrase: Do you understand how a reasoned DISCUSSION works?
I have presented you with a logical premise for my argument that morality is subjective and relative. and I gave you examples demonstrating this. You have to come up with a better response than: it scares you.
Being scary doesn't negate the truth. - That's silly!
@Tobytrim @Tobytrim 1. You actually didn't say it was "observable" nor "why". You merely made an assertion that the existence of divergent cultures = acceptance of the viability of subjective morality. 2. You once again repeated my one sentence and ignored the rest. I SAID have you taken that position to it's logical conclusion? I SAID think (dern it, man, think) of all of the cultures that have ignored and violated the most basic axioms of God-given conscience.
@EffieReal "1. You actually didn't say it was "observable" nor "why" .
I did say say both! Here it is again:-
Morality is observably subjective because it differs from culture to culture and from one historical era to another. I gave the example that the writers of the bible condoned crimes like slavery, which are morally wrong in our culture.
I also pointed out that killing a law abiding citizen is considered a moral act during a war.
Morality is obviously a subjective, contingent, human idea.
"of all of the cultures that have ignored and violated the most basic axioms of God-given conscience"
So you can not reason outside of a faith based axiomatic presupposition that god exists? You cannot reason FOR the existence of "god" without relying on it being true in the first place?? You are in trouble!!
OK. What about my other point that morality is neither objective nor god given? You and I BOTH need a moral understanding to accept or deny "God's" morality!
@Tobytrim Since you are using "observance of culture" as your basis for argument, try actually observing. The facts are against mankind having the capacity to uphold a consistent, eternal (or even long-term) standard of morality. In reality, subjective morality devoid of a higher standard opens the gateway for (as I SAID) all sorts of horrific behaviors. This is on an individual level as well as larger societal level. Morality exists outside of man's faulty, selfish, nature.
@EffieReal "Morality exists outside of man's faulty, selfish, nature."
That is a statement you can only support with a load of non-sequitor preaching, rather than logical argument. Furthermore, I have also already demonstrated that morality can only be a human concept, in 2 or 3 different ways.
You need to do more than just repeat your thoroughly negated faith position. We need a logical argument from you here. Your faith position cannot sustain.
@EffieReal "My reasoning on "morality is relative" was in the paragraph that you must have skipped over whilst replying to the first sentence."
You know I didn't skip over what your response was(not reasoning) because I responded to it.
I have responded again since, and now paste it and repond again. - You said: ..." now THAT is an utterly frightening position for a human to espouse..."
You need to respond to my reasoned arguments and examples.
@Tobytrim Laugh all you want, you aren't getting out of it. I'm praying for you . Tough toenails. Also, my cat's name was Toby. Best little guy ever. He helped me make the beds. No kidding, he would jump on top of the sheets after I threw them and run down the corners until they were flat. Plus he could "roar". He was awesome.
@EffieReal "Laugh all you want, you aren't getting out of it. I'm praying for you "
Why don't you try thinking for yourself, rather than praying to imaginary characters for other people?, What possible use, do you think it could be, to pray to a "God" which you think has already made his mind up on absolutely EVERYTHING an infinity ago?.
According to your skewed dogma, your prayers can't keep me from perdition's fire if I'm due there! - How irrational do you want to be in your beliefs?-Lol!
Fair enough, I never said you were! - My point still stands , doesn't it? Whatever you ask for, prayer isn't going to get you anywhere with an immutable omniscient god, is it?
And the idea of being in danger for not blindly accepting the superstition you depend on, is simply ridiculous, isn't it?
@Tobytrim Actually, your suppositions about my faith were Calvinistic in nature. So in essence, yes you did say I was. Prayer is not antithetical position to the belief in God's omniscience. Only an antithetical position to the belief in God's unwillingness to get involved on a personal level with out lives. I have no problem with that, God has gotten involved personally with my life on many occasions. The danger is in depending on your own righteousness before God, since you have none.
@EffieReal " We don't fail our own standards. We fail God's
The point you're missing is that humanity sets the standard, and ,observably, not any immutable "God".
The standard of morality human beings adhere to, is inconsistent from one being to another. There is no single standard of morality. These two idiots in the video here, for example, can't even agree on what the bible says is right or wrong.
You can't even demonstrate a clear knowledge of any universal standard of morality.
@EffieReal "The Word of God is what Christians are held accountable to"
Then Christians are quite happy to go through life denying the very human qualities they think "God" bestowed upon them!
I've heard this shpeel by Ray et al. They tell lies to promote their own (even more tellingly) false version of "God's will" by misinterpreting the bible. Even the "commandments" which hold no moral reason anyway.
At least Osteen's lavendered up bullshit makes it seem like your God actually loves you!
@EffieReal" If so, why are you watching Christian videos? "
It was months ago, but if memory serves, I ran into this among a sequence which began with a very entertaining interview where Todd here attempted to demean Hitchens in person , and naturally, got embarrassingly spanked.
If it tells you anything, this is 1 of 2 - guess if I bothered with part 2?? - lol!
@Tobytrim Hitchens have never spanked anyone in any video...ever. He is intellectual fallacious, bankrupt and pretentious. He isn't funny, respectful or respectable. He is just a little boy with whining impulsiveness and a following of sycophants, mostly young boys who need a daddy image to fill their empty lives. He just helps them to emotionally justify their lack of study, poor decisions, and ignorance. "It's OK to ignore reality, our hero Hitchens says so." Foolishness.
@EffieReal" Hitchens have never spanked anyone in any video...ever. He is intellectual fallacious, bankrupt and pretentious"
Ha ha! There is certainly evidence in your name -calling here, that he has tweaked yet another believers' nose!!!
In any case, I found his tearing down of Todd's version of Ray comfort's "If God judged you on the 10 commandments....." bullshit very amusing. I found it even more amusing that you try to suggest it was otherwise- Lol!
@Tobytrim You are like an Apollo Theater audience member. You really don't understand what you are booing, but it feels good so you go along. Sorry, your group-think Hitchens worshiping mentality is too limited to properly fisk. But it's proof that evolution isn't real. IF it were, your sort would be long gone from sheer idiocy.
@EffieReal "You are like an Apollo Theater audience member."
Sorry but this, the rest of your comment, and indeed the rest of your thread, has no more than ad hom personal speculations of who I am or what I might think! With no evidence of how you could know anything at all about it!!
Have you actually got a real argument, with any countering reasoning, or evidence?
If my thinking is "limited" don't just say so . - Show it?
@EffieReal" "It's OK to ignore reality, our hero Hitchens says so." Foolishness."
Ha ha!! - I have to applaud your audaciousnes, though not respect it I'm afraid, in the light of the delusion it displays.
How do you justify calling observably untrue bronze age fairy tales "reality", to someone who only accepts pretty much all things on reason, or repeatably testable evidence?? - You're really funny!!
@Tobytrim How do you justify displaying your ignorance of the timeline of the Bible to such a horrific extent that you use the pedestrian fallacy "bronze age" like you are what? 14 or 15? Puh. Lease.
@EffieReal "How do you justify displaying your ignorance of the timeline of the Bible to such a horrific extent that you use the pedestrian fallacy "bronze age"
OK let's deal with my "ignorance"
- I would indeed be inclined to say that the bible was mostly written and collected in the early iron age ( not much before 300BCE - and most long after that ) - I was only allowing you YOUR required timeline for it to allow YOUR belief any possible credibility.
Ha ha! - I take it that is fundi-speak for " I have no decent logical reponse to your argument" ?
No wonder you're gullible enough to let unverified, and well debunked, hearsay myths, from an ancient, more barbaric and ignorant culture, to decide how you should live your life, instead of thinking for yourself ......
@EffieReal ""Bored" is Effie-speak for "your arguments are arrogant, yawn-inspiring, face-palm-inducing, regurgitated from new-atheist website pablum."
I noticed you didn't say wrong or refutable! - I guess that's why you're dodging them in favour of ad hominem comments, and preaching eh?
@Tobytrim That's why we know that we fail. We don't fail our own standards. We fail God's. Humanity, survival of the fittest, get what's mine, look out for number one....all of those (morally relativistic) views give the human "permission" to do wrong. Yet, despite the insistence and argumentation on the part of the guilty, eventually the right shines a light on it. The conscience that is not totally paved over in stony dispassion will become softened and repentant given the opportunity.
@EffieReal "That's why we know that we fail. We don't fail our own standards. We fail God's. Humanity"
Non sequitor!! - You are preaching! How do you know there is such a thing as objectve morality?
How do you know that it came from YOUR version of "God"? Remember, this started as a logical argument YOU attempted to demonstrate the existence of YOUR "God". How do YOU know that "God" is morally good, and not evil? By whose standards do you judge him to be good?
@Tobytrim I have already answered this. We have a conscience. Yet we violate it using on our own subjective argumentations of selfishness, pride and lust. We want what we want, damn everyone else. Then individuals and societies do awful things. We KNOW they are awful because we have a conscience, but we ignore it. So how can we be so double minded? Only Christianity and the fact that morality exists outside of ourselves and is imparted as a gift answers that question.
@EffieReal "Only Christianity and the fact that morality exists outside of ourselves and is imparted as a gift answers that question"
Your not getting this! - I have already exposed this belief as logically fallacious, Morality does NOT exist outside of ourselves. I have demonstrated that it is NOT objective, and is a human concept. It is contingent on human minds. Moral reasoning changes - (even within the bible) - It is OBSERVABLY NOT the concept of an immutable god.
"We have a conscience. Yet we violate it using on our own subjective argumentations of selfishness"
I have already pointed out that my conscience tells me different things are right and wrong than other people. There is no objective, universal morality in everyones conscience.
This very discussion is evidence for that. I can dismiss your dogma in ways which your conscience would never allow you to. You, on the other hand, can be intellectually dishonest and not feel as guilty as I would.
" We have a conscience. Yet we violate it using on our own subjective argumentations of selfishness, pride and lust"
Actually there is a better example of your fallacy here. My conscience NEVER sees a moral wrong in lust (Pure sexual attraction). For that matter, neither pride in it's own sake, nor even selfishness(if you are redressing selflessness, or the effect of undue selfishness in others.
The "wrong" in those emotions are contingent on their implimentation, NOT your sentience of them.
@Tobytrim This started by your attempting to call the man in this video crazy for upholding the standards of the Bible toward another who claims to be a Christian as would be his responsibility. Admittedly, while simultaneously not believing in either Christ as God or the Bible as the standard making your comments useless to the discussion and well...weird.
@EffieReal" This started by your attempting to call the man in this video crazy for upholding the standards of the Bible"
That is not why I'd call Todd Friel a nutjob!! Listen to the psychotic rant of this idiot. These "Hell and Brimstone" types actually cherry pick the bible to promote their own personal god, more than the moderate Christians do..
You've only to listen to their "If god judged you on the 10 commandments...." street schpeel, to see how off scripture they are prepared to go.
@EffieReal "The conscience that is not totally paved over in stony dispassion will become softened and repentant given the opportunity. "
Here is your problem. Neither of us knows if your god exists. If we could demonstrate the existence of something testably to ourselves, enough to KNOW it was there, we could show someone else
As an athiest, my conscience tells me certain thing are not wrong, which your dogma might find very wrong. We do not share a universal moral reasoning!
@Tobytrim I distrust that last assertion. We do share a universal moral reasoning. Given a proper breakdown of individual examples subjective opinion tends to fall under three categories, 1. agreement (of wrongness), 2. not yet experienced for one's self /lack of empathy, or 3. not yet thought it out to its logical conclusions. Ultimately, it becomes a series of modal logic choices or computations. Ones and zeros. Blacks and whites. All of this is given the rational ability of the thinker.
@Tobytrim This means that the individual can (and often does) have a skewed, mentally-ill or heart hardened approach to morality. This "heart sickness" is accounted for in Biblical Christianity. I assert that it would be illogical to say morality is "merely" subjective given this reality. Rather, it is individually understood in a subjective manor. Similar to the sun being a definable object existing outside of each individuals experience and perception but not truly subject to them.
@EffieReal " I assert that it would be illogical to say morality is "merely" subjective given this reality"
Assert what you like....I DEMONSTRATED it to you. You would need to negate my observations to even suggest what you claim as a reality.
Are you now admitting that people DO have a subjective view of morality, and the idea of objective morality cannot exist without assuming "God's" existence in the first proposition, so cannot be used to demonstrate the existence of god?
@Tobytrim You demonstrated a logical fallacy. You made an equivocation of man's view of morality to the substance of said morality. I have already addressed this. (Sun analogy.) So at this point, you are going past circular and entering spinning territory. Your observations of the different behaviors of individuals and societies fit just fine within my illustrations. So you are confusing evidence with proof. We are looking at the same evidence and coming to different conclusions is all.
@EffieReal " You made an equivocation of man's view of morality to the substance of said morality"
That's NOT an equivocation!! - Lol! - Try to get this!! I have demonstrated that morality observably DOESN'T exist in accordance with your "sun analogy"!!
Morality is DEMONSTRABLY a human concept which doesn't exist outside of human ideas and agreement..
Even if you imagined up a god, you would need your own independent concept of morality to claim it to be a "moral being".
@Toby I am observing the eternal struggle of man's will to "do good" with his desires to "do evil" . This struggle can be seen in individuals (such as yourself) who attempt to rationalize their moral shortfalls with philosophical argumentation and in societies who brainwash their denizens with group think rationals in order to do things that go against their individual consciences. This dichotomy of man, spirit vs. flesh, is accounted for in God-given conscience at war with man's sin nature.
@EffieReal "I am observing the eternal struggle of man's will to "do good" with his desires to "do evil""
No you are not!
You don't know what is abstractly good or evil!! I have established that in many ways and I'm still waiting for you to counter my argument - Obviously you can't!
It is beyond ignorance and intellectual dishonesty, to keep hanging your arguments on a premise I have long negated in many ways.
What is your standard of good and evil if it is demonstrably a human decision?
@EffieReal " This dichotomy of man, spirit vs. flesh, is accounted for in God-given conscience at war with man's sin nature. "
Demonstrate this Dichotomy? Prove there is such a thing, objectively, as sin, outside of man's opinion?
Demonstrate with evidence that there is such a thing as "spirit" which is non-contingent of the living flesh which you claim it to be in conflict with?
Prove that man's conscience is "given" by a universal "God"? - It's inconsistency demonstrates that it isn't!
@EffieReal "I am observing the eternal struggle of man's will to "do good" with his desires to "do evil""
Who gets to decide which is good and which is evil?
I demonstrated that there is no objective morality, and each man's conscious tell him different things about which is good or which is evil. So where's the conflict?
And even if there was one, how could you tell if anyone is in conflict with his unique and privately held conscience?
@Tobytrim I have asked you before, how do you explain this? If morality were merely a man made premise, why does man have this struggle? Where is the logic in this? If man is merely a higher evolved creature than wouldn't man's behaviors evolve to equal his instincts? If morality is just an instinctual brain firing, why is it negated by opposite instinctual brain firings? This doesn't fit. Conscience vs. nature, spirit vs. flesh, that fits with observable behavior.
@EffieReal "I have asked you before, how do you explain this? If morality were merely a man made premise, why does man have this struggle?"
What an irrational argument- and question!!!!
The only world view claiming a perfect "designer" is th e theist one. A secular world makes no claims and needs no explanation other than what we observe is true.
There is no "design" in evolution! Why would it allow anything other than survival of what now happens to exist?? That's really silly!!- Lol!!
@EffieReal "morality is just an instinctual brain firing, why is it negated by opposite instinctual brain firings?"
Why not? The universe is the construct of conflict!
All your arguments rely on a ridiculous presupposition that an unobservable entity(with nothing to distinguish it from fantasy) You need a premise based on what CAN be mutually observed to be true.
We know how programmed you have been by your superstitions. You need to demonstrate that you can think outside that!
@EffieReal " Conscience vs. nature, spirit vs. flesh, that fits with observable behavior. "
Only man's concept (often in ignorance) sees a conflict between his conscience and nature. There might be a conflict in his instincts , or between his intellect and instnct( which IS nature). -This conflict between instinct and intellect easily explains man's belief in gods.
There is no observable evidence of spirit without the observable functioning of living flesh. No claim you made there fits.
@Tobytrim That is faulty. If you admit to the conflict (and you do) yet you believe man is basically an evolved creature, brain function, intellect, etc. are then all a result of this evolution. How can a creature evolve with diametrically opposing instincts? So, yes my claims are observable. Humans are in constant state of conflict which does not fit with the evolution model.
@EffieReal "How can a creature evolve with diametrically opposing instincts?"
Strawman! You are still arguing with a presupposition which I have negated. Where is the conflict, without presupposing objective morality and "God"? Why don't you give me an example which doesn't require the biblical god to be fact?
However, if you mean survival traits which conflict, it is commonplace, as long as the conflict itself isn't fatal . religion is likely a conflict of two such human characteristics.
@Tobytrim LOL. That is funny. You admit the conflict. Yet you deny the conflict. You have not demonstrated a thing except an adherence to your philosophy of atheism. I know you adhere to that, but it also fits within my example. You use it to rationalize you own personal conflict. You are my walking textbook example. LOL
@EffieReal "That is funny. You admit the conflict. Yet you deny the conflict. "
No.......I have demonstrated that morality is inconsistant in the various concepts of humanity. Therefore, it is NOT an objective "design" of any omniscient, immutable entity outside of human opinion.
You are STILL assuming what I have already negated make your flawed argument
Why can you not provide the evidence or reasoning to support your claims?
For a start, which "conflict" do I both concede and deny?.
@EffieReal " You use it to rationalize you own personal conflict."
Ahh the classic Christian ad hominem mindreading!!
- Have you got a damn logical argument.-Lol!
So you think my reasons for destroying your illogical argument, with reasoning you can't even attempt to respond to, is to cover some secret hidden conflict which you know all about? Who told you? Jesus? Angel Gabriel?
I think it's safe to say that you are handling your loss this argument in a very embarrassing way! - Lol!
@Tobytrim It's not my fault that your personal choice of philosophy is not consistent with observable behavior. Atheism and evolution do not account for the conflict of the individual. The divergent philosophies that men espouse have nothing to do with my point. The conflict is within the individual. You know better, but you do it anyway. People don't even uphold their own personal belief systems. Even those who keep it at a bare minimum in order to avoid any possible feelings of guilt.
@EffieReal "It's not my fault that your personal choice of philosophy is not consistent with observable behavior"
It is your fault when you premise an argument, on an easily refuted claim, which you cannot logically defend, yet you keep relying on it .
Your claims of "conflict" rely on there being such a thing as an objective moral law, the articles of which are consistent in the conscience of ALL people, beyond argument.
You need to prove this exists - Where is your evidence?
@EffieReal " Atheism and evolution do not account for the conflict of the individual."
You need to make a logical case that there is a conflict with an objective moral law, in the conscience of ANY individual, you must first demonstrate that there is such a thing as this moral law. I have shown you the inconsistency of what different human conscience tell them is "moral", "just", "good" or "evil".
Make your argument that their is, in fact, such a thing as this universal "moral law"
"The conflict is within the individual. You know better, but you do it anyway."
You think this is better evidence for a "perfect creator"???
You claim your god to be so omnipotent and omniscient that this shouldn't happen. There is nothing outside of a blind belief in a "Lawgiving" creator,that saysthist is so. Science claims nothing to be " uniquely and perfectly designed" - Something only needs to be able to exist.
Your argument debunks god It doesn't justify a belief in one!
@Tobytrim "You think this is better evidence for a "perfect creator"???" I think that this is evidence that your claims are false at best and hypocritical at worst. I think this is evidence that your philosophy doesn't account for reality so you must rationalize it. I think that makes my philosophy superior.
@Tobytrim Yet you jumped into this video commenting that you hold your morality above the God of scriptures. How would that work? There is no right or wrong, so your opinion on the matter is limited by your own emotional reactions within your very limited framework of experience and learning. Just one man's opinion. Why even bother with it? It's just a matter of personal distaste. There is no such thing as "wrong" anyway. Seems rather futile to argue the point at all from this perspective.
@EffieReal "There is no right or wrong, so your opinion on the matter is limited by your own emotional reactions"
Absolutely!!
If you include intellect, consensus, empathy, and instinct etc - ALL morality is such ...Even that of the "godly" (which I ALSO demonstrated logically).
However, let's ignore the fallacy in your arguments, and grant you this "objective God's law".
By the standard of THAT, I am most certainly morally superior to this hypocritical entity. Do you endorse slavery?
" Atheism and evolution do not account for the conflict of the individual."
What conflict?? Where have you observed a conflict, and against WHICH standard? How do you know there is any conflict when you can't see into ANY conscience to know what is there in the first place??
Your argments are silly, and go nowhere. You're simply preaching with no logical premise!
@Tobytrim Yes, ignoring the testimony of millions of people who admit to "knowing better" but "doing it anyway" is simply "MY" having invented an observation in my widdle head. * eye-roll* Also, I must be insane to think that there is ANYBODY on earth guilty of breaking laws that they knew were both illegal and immoral, but determining to do it anyway. Nope, never happened. Truth is: Everyone breaks their moral rules, even the minimal ones that the anti-God crowd make up for themselves.
@EffieReal " I must be insane to think that there is ANYBODY on earth guilty of breaking laws that they knew were both illegal and immoral"
No you're just stupid to think you can get that strawman past me!
No-one is saying that people don't have a conscience and that we feel guilty if we go against it. Our tribal ancestors would not have survived without that instinct to conform to the will of the community. The point you cannot respond to is that this moral conscience is inconsistent!
@EffieReal "Everyone breaks their moral rules, even the minimal ones that the anti-God crowd make up for "
Correct!! And as you point out, everyone, even the "anti god crowd" AND "The God crowd" too, have their own version of morality which isn't necessarily consistent with another. The difference is that the irrational among us make up a god and say he has instilled an "objective, universal, immutable moral law in the conscience of each human being, which is clearly not the case!
@Tobytrim You admitted to this then you retracted it. I understand, if you didn't have rationalization like that to fall back on , you entire personally chosen philosophy would crumble. So , keep denying reality all you want. It's not going to change it. Nor my opinion of your choices.
@Tobytrim Speaking of silly arguments....subjective morality. Now, THAT'S silly. If someone does something to you, say, sleep with your mate. Not illegal. Can't appeal to courts (not that had anything to do with morality). Not socially damning for the person, successful people do that sort of thing all of the time with no repercussions. So can't appeal to society. All you have in your appeal is your internal awareness that you have been wronged. You know that you have been violated.
@EffieReal"Speaking of silly arguments....subjective morality"
I really don't care how silly you think the fact that morality is a subjective concept in your tiny and opinionated mind. I have logically demonstrated that morality IS a human concept, and you can't demonstrate otherwise.
The rest of your comment actually verifies my point. There is a reason why "sleeping with your mate" is not illegal - there's obviously nothing wrong with it, even If don't personally find it a tasteful act .
@Tobytrim said (apparently with a straight face): "The rest of your comment actually verifies my point. There is a reason why "sleeping with your mate" is not illegal - there's obviously nothing wrong with it, even If don't personally find it a tasteful act ." My reply: BWAHAHAHAAAAAHAAAAA "nothing WRONG with..." LOLOL AH HAAAAAA . *sigh...That was a good one. Thanks for the laugh.
@Tobytrim No, I'm not buying it. A personally distasteful act is green peppers on pizza. Just because I find it so, does that make it a "wrong" act? Of course not. Raping a 3 year old to death is wrong. Not just personally distasteful. To witness the atrocities committed by vile contemptible types and callously claim them to be merely an "example of subjective morality", or merely "personally distasteful" or "not truly wrong because nothing is" would be an untenable and outright evil.
@Tobytrim But, the perpetrator has another "subjectively chosen system of morality" and therefore disagrees. Too bad for you. Just have to accept their choices, it's all subjective. Now, even if you argue that you would *yeah, right. There are countless other examples that could be drawn. Each contributing to the decimation of society as anarchy and moral lawlessness are acceptable so long as you have a personal philosophy that allows for the violations. Extrapolated, this does not work.
@EffieReal " it's all subjective. Now, even if you argue that .........."
No......I'm not just arguing it, as I have pointed out on every comment board on this thread, I have DEMONSTRATED that it is all subjective and relative.
You are relying on morality being demonstrably objective, to make your initial argument on this, you failed to prove your point nor negate mine, yet you are STILL argung with this assumption.
It's time to put up or shut up now - This is getting ridiculous!
@Tobytrim So, I'm saying this before bedtime. You have espoused a morally repugnant philosophy whilst denying the existence of your belief in it while also violating the tenants of it while also denying the conflict which this creates for you as an individual while also attempting to divert the topic to your misunderstandings of scripture and God's opinions on slavery while also decreeing your moral superiority to pretty much everyone and everything discusses. As I said, complete FAIL.
@EffieReal "So, I'm saying this before bedtime. You have espoused a morally repugnant philosophy whilst denying the existence of your belief" Ha ha! Well to be more accurate, all I'm expressing here is a non-acceptence of YOUR repugnant belief, based on an acceptance of the bible as literal truth!
This is observable in all the desperate and wrong guesses you're making here, about what you think I DO believe. Lol!
@Tobytrim But even more pertinent to the discussion than the ill effects on "society" is the fact that YOU KNOW that you were violated. It doesn't matter where you are from, how you were raised, or in what you choose to believe. The wrongness that you have suffered is something that no one had to explain to you. You didn't learn it from a book (holy or otherwise), a leader or a school. You innately know that you have been wronged. You know what wrong is when it happens to you (every person).
@EffieReal " You innately know that you have been wronged. You know what wrong is when it happens to you (every person)."
Of course you do!! Higher intellects can also apply empathy to what hurts us. (there's a version of the "golden rule) in every ancient culture. - So bloody what??!
That is the basis of our understanding of our justice and morality. It is still inconsistent , and therefore NOT the objective construct of a god!
Why can't you get this? - Are you dishonest or stupid ?
@Tobytrim "Are you dishonest or stupid ?" Neither. You are 1. rude and 2. ignorant of the subject. You have obviously been indoctrinated into the culture of moral relativism and it suits your chosen lifestyle of (as you said) greed, selfishness and lust. So, FYI, differing cultural practices =/= differing morality. It merely demonstrates differing facts/factors. Treating people as you would like to be treated may have disagreement in some cultures this does not negate it's objective truth.
@EffieReal" Treating people as you would like to be treated may have disagreement in some cultures this does not negate it's objective truth."
But you are an idiot! -
You do not HAVE the objective truth - You are denying it!! You used, what you thought, was a logical argument, I debunked it immediately, You couldn't negate my reasoning, yet you CARRY on with the SAME arguments which relies on the same fallacy you have been shown. That is stupidity!
@Tobytrim Kid, your proclamations of my so-called stupidity 1. do not carry water, 2. do not prove any of your arguments, 3. do not prove your personal philosophy is superior, 4. do prove that you are rude.
Be "not rude" or begone. ~signed, Moral Objectivity
"You resort to personal attacks and dismiss questions as not worthy of your answering."
Wow!! Talk about the hypocrisy of Christianity!!!! You have responded with nothing but ad homs! - lol!
I answered every disingenuous, piss poor argument you make - yet you ignore every one I make. You haven't even responded to my rebuttal of your initial premise . - ONCE MORE - Where is your evidence or logical justification that there is objective morality- Independent of, and universal to humanity?
@Tobytrim You know, in re-reading some of this discussion I have decided that you are incapable or unwilling to answer any questions posed to you that threaten your beliefs. You resort to personal attacks and dismiss questions as not worthy of your answering. That is called rationalization and deflection. You are a bundle of emotional and aggressive responses. I'm bored with you now. Again. Twice to many times. You did not prove anything but your own inconsistent belief system which fails.
@Tobytrim An entire culture could be controlled and lead into committing atrocities. They could be in agreement at the time (or mostly in agreement). This does NOT negate the fact that they are committing atrocities. Therefore their culture does not change objective truth/morality. Back to differing practices, just because some people eat pigs and others think pigs are "unclean" doesn't demonstrate differing morality, it demonstrates differing factual perception.
@EffieReal "This does NOT negate the fact that they are committing atrocities. Therefore their culture does not change objective truth/morality"
Who decides what is an attrocity, you moron?!! You haven't demonstrated that there is any objective morality independent of human concept. And I have demonstrated there isn't.
We certainly know that God has no moral laws regarding attrocities - Check the bible.
By the way, you still never said whether you agree with God's endorsement of slavery?
@Tobytrim "Slavery" ? That is a rookie accusation. Do some more research hotshot. Nope. Yes, atrocities are what they are regardless of culture, or variations of personal philosophy. When a 3 year old watches her family butchered by a warring tribe and she and her mother are raped and thrown in a fire. YOU look her in the eyes and tell her that the violation that she experienced is not objectively wrong. In fact, it's only a product of her cultural upbringing to imagine this.
@EffieReal "Slavery" ? That is a rookie accusation. Do some more research hotshot." Ha ha!!- You obviously haven't:
If you read, for example, Lev 25 44-46 ( Don't have me quote it , you dishonest twerp!) you will clearly read "God" quoted as allowing for slaves to be taken from surrounding cultures. So answer the question - Do YOU, PERSONALLY, agree with "God" that slavery is not an immoral institution?
"YOU look her in the eyes and tell her that the violation that she experienced is not objectively wrong"
I can do better than that, I can tell her that I as a demonstrably existent sentience, and a member of the only verified species with the intellect to feel that kind of empathy, that I personally think what has happened to her is wrong, and that the bulk of humanity feels the same way.. This would be more comfort to her than discussing philosophy or telling her about YOUR imagined pal!
@Tobytrim That's not better. That's disgusting. The very idea that there is no actual wrong, only occasional consensuses by the masses that blow this way and that like the winds is something that would be comforting? Not at all. That only demonstrates the open door that you leave for people to disagree and the permission you give them in you relativistic dogma to do this. This says, "It's not OK for most people, buuuuut for some it is and we shouldn't judge them because it's all relative. "
I have no belief system which you can pinpoint. I simply don't accept yours. In order for "my non belief in YOUR system" to fail, you would have to prove yours beyond reasonable doubt!
@Tobytrim Nope. Your belief system, includes atheism, moral relativity and evolution (as a philosophy as well as a scientific principle). I have shown your moral relativity to be utter fail...and repugnant. The atheism and evolutionary philosophies that you hug so tightly also fail when that leg is removed.
@EffieReal I've been going over what you are writing here, and I'm getting nothing from you but speculative personal comments about what you think I believe. - Have you actually got any logical arguments to offer at all?
You haven't addressed any of the posits I've used to shoot your apparently irrational superstitions and repulsive dogmas.
I guess that must mean you're wrong, eh?
Are you going to say whether you agree, with your God, that slavery is a morally acceptable practice?
@EffieReal " I have shown your moral relativity to be utter fail...and repugnant."
You showed morality NOT to be relative?? OK let's have it again? - I must have missed that - lol!
And who finds it repugnant? - You??? Do you find "moral relativity repugnant when you see examples of it being it commanded or endorsed , by "god"in your "good book"?
You STILL haven't answered the question! Do you agree with your "God", as quoted in the bible, that slavery is morally acceptable?
"That's not better. That's disgusting. The very idea that there is no actual wrong"
Of course there is wrong , even a concieved wrong, If it is held inclusively by a single group of people it is "objective" within that group. It is still ONLY subjectively concieved by that group.
You have foolishly been proposing moral objectivity which is beyond humanities concept, as evidence for god.
I have demonstrated this to be a fallacy, because of it's inconsistency between human groups.
@Tobytrim You have demonstrated no inconsistency between human groups of moral conscience. Only of behavior and factual inconsistencies. Your will does not change this. Your "belief" that you deny you have, yet another of your inconsistencies, does not do anything but demonstrate the rational pretzel you must contort yourself into to hold a belief and yet violate it whilst simultaneously denying your conflict.
@Tobytrim Despite your lip service the the most morally repugnant of all philosophies (relativism) you don't even practice what you preach. You point out the "wrongness" of humans and entities who disagree with you. You only have a basic law, and you can't even keep that. You are just as conflicted as everyone else. Denial ain't just a variety of crocodile in Egypt. You are not impressive. Just repeated regurgitation of public school moral relativism and shallow atheism websites. Yawn.
@EffieReal "You point out the "wrongness" of humans and entities who disagree with you."
That's easy with you. If you make an argument, which I can easily refute, and which you can't logically support, you tell you, yourself show everyone that you are wrong! - Lol!
Can you, or can you not, demonstrate an objective morality, using logic or evidence, without relying on "faith in your god" and his ascribed dogma being true?
@Tobytrim I have not only demonstrated this, I have demonstrated the existence of the evidence for it and the reason that your philosophy does not accommodate reality and (completely by accident) you personal inability to comprehend anything discussed including the utter fail of your belief system.
@EffieReal" I have not only demonstrated this, I have demonstrated the existence of the evidence"
No you haven't - I have had to ask, again and again, with every preaching comment you type here.
However, here is your chance to make a fool or a liar out of me.
Present evidence, without invoking faith in your god, that there is an objective morality? Then negate all the examples, which we have BOTH offered here that it is relative, and an inconsistant human concept?
@Tobytrim So here's the funny part. You know what(ever) was done to you is wrong. You might even consider yourself a "good person" who has personal ethics which includes not doing to others what you would hate having done to you. Nevertheless, you HAVE done things just like those things you hate. Possibly even worse. You know right from wrong solely as a result of conscience and personal violation. Yet rationalize it when you choose to violate your conscience. Hence the conflict.
@EffieReal "So here's the funny part. You know what(ever) was done to you is wrong." I know that something is right or wrong by the standard which is programmed by my nurturing. Someone from another culture , or even under different circumstance, would have a different standard.
Killing is wrong in peacetime but not in war. Slavery was once virtuous among the godly and law abiding. - It isn't now.
Morality is obviously determined by human standard. So what are you trying to argue here?
You keep insisting that your evidence for there being a "God" is some "observation", personally claimed by you, that people are in conflict with a universal law which man is not the author of. You cannot demonstrate the existence of this, and I have demonstrated it's non existence. Yet your "evidence" which is actually in contradiction to what CAN be observed, relies on a blind assumption that "God" exists. Can you get more circular?
Either provide your evidence or concede the point.
@EffieReal " Humans are in constant state of conflict which does not fit with the evolution model"
Your piss poor philosophical reason and intellectual dishonesty aside, why don't you take a moment to explain why you think the above statement is so? I think it might provide a little comic relief to examine your understanding of how evolution works- Lol!
@EffieReal "That is faulty. If you admit to the conflict (and you do)"
No I don't......I ASSERT that there is INCONSISTENCY of moral conception
. Learn the difference, then demonstrate how there could be a conflict of conscience when all consciences do not have the same definition of what is good and what is evil.
I'm still waiting for you to provide reasoning or evidence that the concept of good and evil are universal or even objective. (Many times now) What is your argument for this??
"Your observations of the different behaviors of individuals and societies fit just fine within my illustrations."
No it doesn't! - It negates YOUR claim that morality is "objective".and universally the same to all human consciences. You make this claim to suggest that "God" is the ONLY way to explain this "Objective morality", and that secular reasoning can't explain it.
Man; you Say we should warn the 'raging heathen' of hell and at the same time i hear you passionately shout out details of it's horrors which sounds as if you are gaining great joy and satisfaction in imagining certain people tortured in this way, I may indeed be discerning a spirit of masochism which cannot honor God and so should be destroyed in hell, to burn it out with the fire of God's love.
Woe unto you false prophets and false teachers who deceive the spiritually dead and pervert the word of God , the scriptures speak to you who do not abide in His word but in folly, for the word speaks to your foolishness, cry out to your god of carnality, lay low below your altar of deceit for you are but a fool, prone to falsehood. A man's pride shall bring him low, but honor shall uphold the humble in spirit. “Proverbs 29:23
Woe unto you false prophets and false teachers who deceive the spiritually dead and pervert the word of God , the scriptures speak to you who sit with much anticipation awaiting your riches, for the foolish man seeks after temporal things for he has no heart for God because he is spiritually dead. Quickly, defend these fools for you have no desire for godly wisdom nor to glorify Him, for you have only contempt for spiritual knowledge and wisdom.
Woe unto you false prophets and false teachers who deceive the spiritually dead and pervert the word of God , you who stand before your altar of apostasy, to you who is not submissive, nor meek, nor humble, nor patient, nor full of love, nor willing to submit to the father but only to the lusts of the flesh and the wisdom of men, for this is the lot of
abrahamovervoorde is a pussy
ktrigg2 3 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
For every spamming graffitti "post" "Rylucero" posts, each once is a bounce of the rubber walls in the rubber room he is in, tied up in a white straight jacket with foam coming out of his mouth...BOING! ( thats a post! ) BOING! ( thats a post! ) BOING! ( thats a post! ) BOING! ( thats a post! ) BOING! ( thats a post! )
When the "posts" stop, its because he fell to the floor and is trying to get up, but he rolls along the floor screaming woes instead at the walls, because NOBODY IS LISTENING.
PureAirSolutions 2 weeks ago
Woe unto the spiritually dead, to fools who have much admiration for false prophets such as these, “Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Isaiah 6:10, Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.” Ezekiel 12:2
Rylucero 2 weeks ago
Woe unto the spiritually dead, those who are callous, to those who are heartless, to those who are arrogant and to those who are demanding, “For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth. I will break down your stubborn pride. Psalm 10:3 They close up their callous hearts, and their mouths speak with arrogance Psalm 17:10 Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous.” Psalm 31:18
Rylucero 2 weeks ago
Woe unto the spiritually dead, to those who are wise in their own eyes, “The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity. Psalms 94:11. Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death. Proverbs 10:2 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. James 1:26 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.” Psalms 10:7
Rylucero 2 weeks ago
Woe unto the spiritually dead, to those who fall at the feet of these abominations of deceit, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?” Jeremiah 5:31
Rylucero 2 weeks ago
Woe unto the spiritually dead, to those who have chosen to venerate these despicable false prophets and false teachers, “Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name, I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Jeremiah 14:14, That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD.” Isaiah 30-9
Rylucero 2 weeks ago
Woe unto the spiritually dead, the scriptures speak to those who distort truth, and who give reverence to fools, “ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.” 2 Peter 2:1-2
Rylucero 2 weeks ago
Woe unto the spiritually dead, those who are covetousness, who are arrogant, professing much, but knowing little, “And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 2 Peter 2:3 Proud and haughty scorner is his name, who dealeth in proud wrath Proverbs 21:24, The fear of the LORD is to hate evil, pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. Proverbs 8:13
Rylucero 2 weeks ago
Woe unto the spiritually dead, the scriptures speak to those who have unhumbled hearts, Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not: Jeremiah 5:21 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. John 12:40, Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Isaiah 6:9
Rylucero 2 weeks ago
Woe unto the spiritually dead, the scriptures speak to fools who pay homage to these false prophets, and false teachers, it speaks to the profane, to the vile and to the wicked, “Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits Isaiah 30:10 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon.” Isaiah 30:12
Rylucero 2 weeks ago
Woe unto the faint of heart, Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience., Ephesians 5:6 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? Deuteronomy 32:27
Rylucero 2 weeks ago
Wow.Friel is even an asshole to other christians.
msc8472 1 month ago
"1:49" we dont have to do anything to be saved. Thats religion, religion is spelled do do do do do and christianity is spelled done!!!!!!!!!!! Jesus already did it. All we must do is recognize that and accept Jesus as our personal Lord and savior.
dylanhaskell25 2 months ago
@dylanhaskell25 Luke 9:23,24 doesn't support that at all, and this was Christ Himself speaking. The cost of following Christ is your life, and anything short of that reveals what one truly believes.
ispthn 2 weeks ago
The only thing more infinite than god's kindness and grace is the amount of anguish and pain sinners will feel in HELL!!!!
ultim4t32 2 months ago
Fear the fire and brimstone. Avoid hell. That is what its all about. Todd Friel is the master.
ultim4t32 2 months ago
so you're saying NOT to preach the truth then? Fire in Brimstone is the harsh reality unbelievers are going to face? SORRY but I don't believe in teaching lies....
wendyresqlady 2 months ago
it's all well and good to pray for this man and pray he repents before it's too late but in the mean time Christians better be sounded the trumpet to alert others otherwise, the BLOOD is on your hands just as the Bible says!
wendyresqlady 2 months ago
Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
wendyresqlady 2 months ago
Eze 33:4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
Eze 33:5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
wendyresqlady 2 months ago
the hour is late and the truth needs to be told...the BIBLE says: Eze 33:2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
Eze 33:3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
wendyresqlady 2 months ago
where is the quoting of scripture to back up Osteen's position...stop it with this FEEL GOOD stuff and start telling the people the TRUTH...hell is real and you're going there if you don't repent....tired of all this feel good stuff...God is a God of wrath, He's a jealous God and HE will NOT be mocked....this is mocking GOD...
wendyresqlady 2 months ago
@wendyresqlady true, but he's also a god of grace, and is quick to forgive if u repent and seek him. fire and brimstone does not attract new believers. love and grace does.
craniumdesigns 2 months ago
@wendyresqlady Yes He is a jeolous God but the God i know, the God of the Bible wants you to love Him and therefore loving Him avoid Hell. Not love Him to avoid Hell but BECAUSE you love Him you recieve His grace and are granted the PRIVILEDGE of spending eternity with God in heaven and in turn avoid Hell.
dylanhaskell25 2 months ago
Man made god, god is dying get over it. The Bible is a Bronze age Fairy tale written my ignorant sheep herders. Time to stop being sheep people...
DeathChurch87 3 months ago
Mormon = Christianity = Judaism = Muslim = Satanism = Scientology = Mickey Mouse = Oprah = Donald Duck = Larry King.
There. Finally some common sense.
bottleracket 3 months ago
Are you good enough to make it to heaven? See "God's Prison" and find out.
Electfilmproductions 5 months ago
and by the way Todd Friel The fruit of someones life being changed is also part of the sanctification or proving of what God is doing. Stop changing Gods words and stop attacking the Man of God Joel Olstein. Todd you are attacking every word that Joel is saying being purposly argumentive and sowing discord toward the man of God.
larrycrowell1973 5 months ago
I think it is ashame that radio host and others twist Joels words and the intentions of his word, and then insinuate that Joel is for himself and not God. Quit twisting Joels words trying to discredit him You should be ashamed and be careful for even you will have to answer for every idle word!!!!!
larrycrowell1973 5 months ago
@larrycrowell1973 Do you support Joel when he says Mormons are Christians?
darthfocus 4 months ago
1 Cor. 13, Mr. Friel, 1 Cor. 13.
hughharman 5 months ago
@hughharman .love is salvation..not the properity stuff
fdcmix1000 5 months ago
Joel Olsteen is a motivational speaker not a preacher of the bible or its truth.
WizzRacing 6 months ago 3
Wow!! What a brainwashed mess, among the brainwashed of the world, this guy is!!
Surely, it must be apparent to most of his listeners, if not even staff at W.O.T.M radio, that Todd here is in dire need of Psycho-therapy?
Tobytrim 6 months ago
@Tobytrim I take it from your comment that you don't agree with the Bible. Todd is directly holding Osteen accountable to the Bible. Osteen fails...miserably. Do you think holding people accountable to the Scriptures is "crazy"? If so, why are you watching Christian videos?
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal ." Do you think holding people accountable to the Scriptures is "crazy"? "
I'm an atheist.....so .....yeah!!,,,,??!
That said, Osteen is far too boring for me to know anythng about, or have any interest in. However, Todd Friel is one of the "Way of the Master" team of equivocators.
And even granting the ridiculous possibility of any "God", based on biblical mythology, never was the 1st commandment so broken, as Ray seems to manage, in his self tailored version of Yahweh, or Jesus.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim So you really don't understand any of the points Todd is making in this video. Admittedly, you are without knowledge of God or Christ or his Word. The Word of God is what Christians are held accountable to. In order to criticize someone in taking on this task, you would necessarily have to fully understand the arguments being presented. You clearly do not.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "So you really don't understand any of the points Todd is making in this video"
Of course I understand. Todd is a psychotic working for Ray Comfort, who wants people to believe (and maybe believe themselves) that all existence was incanted by another psychotic, with the morality and emotional stability of a jealous, spoilt child.
Are you really so gullible as to attach any validity to this shite? This nutjob is promoting an evil "God" which needs it's ego stroked -"OR ELSE!!"-Lol!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim You're funny. You hold yourself as a moral authority? You judge God? Come to think of it, that's not really funny. It really won't be for you if you persist in such utter foolishness. No, you do not have the moral authority to judge God. You of course have been given to freedom to do so (and mock Him as you do) but it's a damnable (literally) bad position to put yourself into. You are an arrogant human. Your pride is killing you. It's a shame. I'll pray for you, seriously.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "You hold yourself as a moral authority? You judge God?" Yes!! Of course I do!! - And so do you ! Unless your an automaton who has no ability to think independently or possessing of free will. I have as much right to judge god against my moral standard, and find him lacking, as you do to say he is "morally perfect".
Morality is relative and subjective to a human mind, although agreed and reasoned into various cultural axioms. It is on this wejudge ANYONE'S morality!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim "Morality is relative..." now THAT is an utterly frightening position for a human to espouse. I mean, really have you thought that one through to it's logical conclusions? Subjective morality? That opens the gateway for any egregiousness cruelty in the name of say...pragmatism or 'greater good'. We have seen this time and again historically. That is an untenable position. You must know this. That is why morality is by its nature outside of ourselves and imparted as a gift.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal ""Morality is relative..." now THAT is an utterly frightening position for a human to espouse..."
I ALSO said it was OBSERVABLE! - And I explained why. Have you got a reasoned argument to rebut that.
I don't care how scary you intuitionally, and personally, feel it might be. It's observable and supported by reason.
If you can refute that, we need more than your personal distaste for the idea- Lol! Let's have your reasoning?
Don't you understand how debate works??
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim If you understood how "debate" works you would not have asked me that question. This is not a debate. There is no moderator. There are no rules. This is a youtube discussion.
My reasoning on "morality is relative" was in the paragraph that you must have skipped over whilst replying to the first sentence.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "This is not a debate. There is no moderator. There are no rules. This is a youtube discussion" Simply to avoid another pointless digression, I'll rephrase: Do you understand how a reasoned DISCUSSION works?
I have presented you with a logical premise for my argument that morality is subjective and relative. and I gave you examples demonstrating this. You have to come up with a better response than: it scares you.
Being scary doesn't negate the truth. - That's silly!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim @Tobytrim 1. You actually didn't say it was "observable" nor "why". You merely made an assertion that the existence of divergent cultures = acceptance of the viability of subjective morality. 2. You once again repeated my one sentence and ignored the rest. I SAID have you taken that position to it's logical conclusion? I SAID think (dern it, man, think) of all of the cultures that have ignored and violated the most basic axioms of God-given conscience.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "1. You actually didn't say it was "observable" nor "why" .
I did say say both! Here it is again:-
Morality is observably subjective because it differs from culture to culture and from one historical era to another. I gave the example that the writers of the bible condoned crimes like slavery, which are morally wrong in our culture.
I also pointed out that killing a law abiding citizen is considered a moral act during a war.
Morality is obviously a subjective, contingent, human idea.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
"of all of the cultures that have ignored and violated the most basic axioms of God-given conscience"
So you can not reason outside of a faith based axiomatic presupposition that god exists? You cannot reason FOR the existence of "god" without relying on it being true in the first place?? You are in trouble!!
OK. What about my other point that morality is neither objective nor god given? You and I BOTH need a moral understanding to accept or deny "God's" morality!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Since you are using "observance of culture" as your basis for argument, try actually observing. The facts are against mankind having the capacity to uphold a consistent, eternal (or even long-term) standard of morality. In reality, subjective morality devoid of a higher standard opens the gateway for (as I SAID) all sorts of horrific behaviors. This is on an individual level as well as larger societal level. Morality exists outside of man's faulty, selfish, nature.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "Morality exists outside of man's faulty, selfish, nature."
That is a statement you can only support with a load of non-sequitor preaching, rather than logical argument. Furthermore, I have also already demonstrated that morality can only be a human concept, in 2 or 3 different ways.
You need to do more than just repeat your thoroughly negated faith position. We need a logical argument from you here. Your faith position cannot sustain.
Put plainly- Prove your claims, as I have!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal "My reasoning on "morality is relative" was in the paragraph that you must have skipped over whilst replying to the first sentence."
You know I didn't skip over what your response was(not reasoning) because I responded to it.
I have responded again since, and now paste it and repond again. - You said: ..." now THAT is an utterly frightening position for a human to espouse..."
You need to respond to my reasoned arguments and examples.
Something beng scary doesn't make it untrue!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal "Come to think of it, that's not really funny. It really won't be for you if you persist in such utter foolishness"
Ha ha!! - Oh!!....You think I might be in trouble do you? Really?? - Do tell?? What is going to happen to me, d'ya think?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Laugh all you want, you aren't getting out of it. I'm praying for you . Tough toenails. Also, my cat's name was Toby. Best little guy ever. He helped me make the beds. No kidding, he would jump on top of the sheets after I threw them and run down the corners until they were flat. Plus he could "roar". He was awesome.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "Laugh all you want, you aren't getting out of it. I'm praying for you "
Why don't you try thinking for yourself, rather than praying to imaginary characters for other people?, What possible use, do you think it could be, to pray to a "God" which you think has already made his mind up on absolutely EVERYTHING an infinity ago?.
According to your skewed dogma, your prayers can't keep me from perdition's fire if I'm due there! - How irrational do you want to be in your beliefs?-Lol!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Not a Calvinist.
EffieReal 3 months ago
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@EffieReal "Not a Calvinist".
Fair enough, I never said you were! - My point still stands , doesn't it? Whatever you ask for, prayer isn't going to get you anywhere with an immutable omniscient god, is it?
And the idea of being in danger for not blindly accepting the superstition you depend on, is simply ridiculous, isn't it?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Actually, your suppositions about my faith were Calvinistic in nature. So in essence, yes you did say I was. Prayer is not antithetical position to the belief in God's omniscience. Only an antithetical position to the belief in God's unwillingness to get involved on a personal level with out lives. I have no problem with that, God has gotten involved personally with my life on many occasions. The danger is in depending on your own righteousness before God, since you have none.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal " We don't fail our own standards. We fail God's
The point you're missing is that humanity sets the standard, and ,observably, not any immutable "God".
The standard of morality human beings adhere to, is inconsistent from one being to another. There is no single standard of morality. These two idiots in the video here, for example, can't even agree on what the bible says is right or wrong.
You can't even demonstrate a clear knowledge of any universal standard of morality.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
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Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal "The Word of God is what Christians are held accountable to"
Then Christians are quite happy to go through life denying the very human qualities they think "God" bestowed upon them!
I've heard this shpeel by Ray et al. They tell lies to promote their own (even more tellingly) false version of "God's will" by misinterpreting the bible. Even the "commandments" which hold no moral reason anyway.
At least Osteen's lavendered up bullshit makes it seem like your God actually loves you!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal" If so, why are you watching Christian videos? "
It was months ago, but if memory serves, I ran into this among a sequence which began with a very entertaining interview where Todd here attempted to demean Hitchens in person , and naturally, got embarrassingly spanked.
If it tells you anything, this is 1 of 2 - guess if I bothered with part 2?? - lol!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Hitchens have never spanked anyone in any video...ever. He is intellectual fallacious, bankrupt and pretentious. He isn't funny, respectful or respectable. He is just a little boy with whining impulsiveness and a following of sycophants, mostly young boys who need a daddy image to fill their empty lives. He just helps them to emotionally justify their lack of study, poor decisions, and ignorance. "It's OK to ignore reality, our hero Hitchens says so." Foolishness.
EffieReal 3 months ago
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@EffieReal" Hitchens have never spanked anyone in any video...ever. He is intellectual fallacious, bankrupt and pretentious"
Ha ha! There is certainly evidence in your name -calling here, that he has tweaked yet another believers' nose!!!
In any case, I found his tearing down of Todd's version of Ray comfort's "If God judged you on the 10 commandments....." bullshit very amusing. I found it even more amusing that you try to suggest it was otherwise- Lol!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim You are like an Apollo Theater audience member. You really don't understand what you are booing, but it feels good so you go along. Sorry, your group-think Hitchens worshiping mentality is too limited to properly fisk. But it's proof that evolution isn't real. IF it were, your sort would be long gone from sheer idiocy.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "You are like an Apollo Theater audience member."
Sorry but this, the rest of your comment, and indeed the rest of your thread, has no more than ad hom personal speculations of who I am or what I might think! With no evidence of how you could know anything at all about it!!
Have you actually got a real argument, with any countering reasoning, or evidence?
If my thinking is "limited" don't just say so . - Show it?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal" "It's OK to ignore reality, our hero Hitchens says so." Foolishness."
Ha ha!! - I have to applaud your audaciousnes, though not respect it I'm afraid, in the light of the delusion it displays.
How do you justify calling observably untrue bronze age fairy tales "reality", to someone who only accepts pretty much all things on reason, or repeatably testable evidence?? - You're really funny!!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim How do you justify displaying your ignorance of the timeline of the Bible to such a horrific extent that you use the pedestrian fallacy "bronze age" like you are what? 14 or 15? Puh. Lease.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "How do you justify displaying your ignorance of the timeline of the Bible to such a horrific extent that you use the pedestrian fallacy "bronze age"
OK let's deal with my "ignorance"
- I would indeed be inclined to say that the bible was mostly written and collected in the early iron age ( not much before 300BCE - and most long after that ) - I was only allowing you YOUR required timeline for it to allow YOUR belief any possible credibility.
So what are YOU claiming it to be?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Bored.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "Bored"
Ha ha! - I take it that is fundi-speak for " I have no decent logical reponse to your argument" ?
No wonder you're gullible enough to let unverified, and well debunked, hearsay myths, from an ancient, more barbaric and ignorant culture, to decide how you should live your life, instead of thinking for yourself ......
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim "Bored" is Effie-speak for "your arguments are arrogant, yawn-inspiring, face-palm-inducing, regurgitated from new-atheist website pablum".
EffieReal 3 months ago
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@EffieReal ""Bored" is Effie-speak for "your arguments are arrogant, yawn-inspiring, face-palm-inducing, regurgitated from new-atheist website pablum."
I noticed you didn't say wrong or refutable! - I guess that's why you're dodging them in favour of ad hominem comments, and preaching eh?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim That's why we know that we fail. We don't fail our own standards. We fail God's. Humanity, survival of the fittest, get what's mine, look out for number one....all of those (morally relativistic) views give the human "permission" to do wrong. Yet, despite the insistence and argumentation on the part of the guilty, eventually the right shines a light on it. The conscience that is not totally paved over in stony dispassion will become softened and repentant given the opportunity.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "That's why we know that we fail. We don't fail our own standards. We fail God's. Humanity"
Non sequitor!! - You are preaching! How do you know there is such a thing as objectve morality?
How do you know that it came from YOUR version of "God"? Remember, this started as a logical argument YOU attempted to demonstrate the existence of YOUR "God". How do YOU know that "God" is morally good, and not evil? By whose standards do you judge him to be good?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim I have already answered this. We have a conscience. Yet we violate it using on our own subjective argumentations of selfishness, pride and lust. We want what we want, damn everyone else. Then individuals and societies do awful things. We KNOW they are awful because we have a conscience, but we ignore it. So how can we be so double minded? Only Christianity and the fact that morality exists outside of ourselves and is imparted as a gift answers that question.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "Only Christianity and the fact that morality exists outside of ourselves and is imparted as a gift answers that question"
Your not getting this! - I have already exposed this belief as logically fallacious, Morality does NOT exist outside of ourselves. I have demonstrated that it is NOT objective, and is a human concept. It is contingent on human minds. Moral reasoning changes - (even within the bible) - It is OBSERVABLY NOT the concept of an immutable god.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
"We have a conscience. Yet we violate it using on our own subjective argumentations of selfishness"
I have already pointed out that my conscience tells me different things are right and wrong than other people. There is no objective, universal morality in everyones conscience.
This very discussion is evidence for that. I can dismiss your dogma in ways which your conscience would never allow you to. You, on the other hand, can be intellectually dishonest and not feel as guilty as I would.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
" We have a conscience. Yet we violate it using on our own subjective argumentations of selfishness, pride and lust"
Actually there is a better example of your fallacy here. My conscience NEVER sees a moral wrong in lust (Pure sexual attraction). For that matter, neither pride in it's own sake, nor even selfishness(if you are redressing selflessness, or the effect of undue selfishness in others.
The "wrong" in those emotions are contingent on their implimentation, NOT your sentience of them.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim This started by your attempting to call the man in this video crazy for upholding the standards of the Bible toward another who claims to be a Christian as would be his responsibility. Admittedly, while simultaneously not believing in either Christ as God or the Bible as the standard making your comments useless to the discussion and well...weird.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal" This started by your attempting to call the man in this video crazy for upholding the standards of the Bible"
That is not why I'd call Todd Friel a nutjob!! Listen to the psychotic rant of this idiot. These "Hell and Brimstone" types actually cherry pick the bible to promote their own personal god, more than the moderate Christians do..
You've only to listen to their "If god judged you on the 10 commandments...." street schpeel, to see how off scripture they are prepared to go.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal "The conscience that is not totally paved over in stony dispassion will become softened and repentant given the opportunity. "
Here is your problem. Neither of us knows if your god exists. If we could demonstrate the existence of something testably to ourselves, enough to KNOW it was there, we could show someone else
As an athiest, my conscience tells me certain thing are not wrong, which your dogma might find very wrong. We do not share a universal moral reasoning!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim I distrust that last assertion. We do share a universal moral reasoning. Given a proper breakdown of individual examples subjective opinion tends to fall under three categories, 1. agreement (of wrongness), 2. not yet experienced for one's self /lack of empathy, or 3. not yet thought it out to its logical conclusions. Ultimately, it becomes a series of modal logic choices or computations. Ones and zeros. Blacks and whites. All of this is given the rational ability of the thinker.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal" I distrust that last assertion. We do share a universal moral reasoning. "
I didn't just assert it - I demonstrated it. Now YOU demonstrate that I'm wrong? I don't care what you distrust.
Cultures, individuals, and historical circumstances, OBSERVABLY disagree on what is right or wrong.
Prove otherwise?
What is unavoidably universal about a subjective morality which changes by circumstance and agreement?
God in the bible endorses slavery - Do you?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim This means that the individual can (and often does) have a skewed, mentally-ill or heart hardened approach to morality. This "heart sickness" is accounted for in Biblical Christianity. I assert that it would be illogical to say morality is "merely" subjective given this reality. Rather, it is individually understood in a subjective manor. Similar to the sun being a definable object existing outside of each individuals experience and perception but not truly subject to them.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal " I assert that it would be illogical to say morality is "merely" subjective given this reality"
Assert what you like....I DEMONSTRATED it to you. You would need to negate my observations to even suggest what you claim as a reality.
Are you now admitting that people DO have a subjective view of morality, and the idea of objective morality cannot exist without assuming "God's" existence in the first proposition, so cannot be used to demonstrate the existence of god?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim You demonstrated a logical fallacy. You made an equivocation of man's view of morality to the substance of said morality. I have already addressed this. (Sun analogy.) So at this point, you are going past circular and entering spinning territory. Your observations of the different behaviors of individuals and societies fit just fine within my illustrations. So you are confusing evidence with proof. We are looking at the same evidence and coming to different conclusions is all.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal " You made an equivocation of man's view of morality to the substance of said morality"
That's NOT an equivocation!! - Lol! - Try to get this!! I have demonstrated that morality observably DOESN'T exist in accordance with your "sun analogy"!!
Morality is DEMONSTRABLY a human concept which doesn't exist outside of human ideas and agreement..
Even if you imagined up a god, you would need your own independent concept of morality to claim it to be a "moral being".
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal "You made an equivocation of man's view of morality to the substance of said morality."
OK! - Let's do this the hard way. Let's have YOUR evidence that "morality" exists, objectively and non contingent to any mind.
What are you claiming it to be, if it isn't conceptual? Is it material? What are you claiming it is made from.?
Are you claiming "God" as it's author? - You can't even prove "god", so you obviously can't use it as evidence for the existence of "God"!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Toby I am observing the eternal struggle of man's will to "do good" with his desires to "do evil" . This struggle can be seen in individuals (such as yourself) who attempt to rationalize their moral shortfalls with philosophical argumentation and in societies who brainwash their denizens with group think rationals in order to do things that go against their individual consciences. This dichotomy of man, spirit vs. flesh, is accounted for in God-given conscience at war with man's sin nature.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "I am observing the eternal struggle of man's will to "do good" with his desires to "do evil""
No you are not!
You don't know what is abstractly good or evil!! I have established that in many ways and I'm still waiting for you to counter my argument - Obviously you can't!
It is beyond ignorance and intellectual dishonesty, to keep hanging your arguments on a premise I have long negated in many ways.
What is your standard of good and evil if it is demonstrably a human decision?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal "morality is just an instinctual brain firing, why is it negated by opposite instinctual brain firings?"
Why not? The universe is the construct of conflict!
All your arguments rely on a ridiculous presupposition that an unobservable entity(with nothing to distinguish it from fantasy) exists.
You need a premise based on what CAN be mutually observed to be true.
We know how programmed you have been by your superstitions. You need to demonstrate that you can think outside that!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal " This dichotomy of man, spirit vs. flesh, is accounted for in God-given conscience at war with man's sin nature. "
Demonstrate this Dichotomy? Prove there is such a thing, objectively, as sin, outside of man's opinion?
Demonstrate with evidence that there is such a thing as "spirit" which is non-contingent of the living flesh which you claim it to be in conflict with?
Prove that man's conscience is "given" by a universal "God"? - It's inconsistency demonstrates that it isn't!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal "I am observing the eternal struggle of man's will to "do good" with his desires to "do evil""
Who gets to decide which is good and which is evil?
I demonstrated that there is no objective morality, and each man's conscious tell him different things about which is good or which is evil. So where's the conflict?
And even if there was one, how could you tell if anyone is in conflict with his unique and privately held conscience?
Can you read minds?.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim I have asked you before, how do you explain this? If morality were merely a man made premise, why does man have this struggle? Where is the logic in this? If man is merely a higher evolved creature than wouldn't man's behaviors evolve to equal his instincts? If morality is just an instinctual brain firing, why is it negated by opposite instinctual brain firings? This doesn't fit. Conscience vs. nature, spirit vs. flesh, that fits with observable behavior.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "I have asked you before, how do you explain this? If morality were merely a man made premise, why does man have this struggle?"
What an irrational argument- and question!!!!
The only world view claiming a perfect "designer" is th e theist one. A secular world makes no claims and needs no explanation other than what we observe is true.
There is no "design" in evolution! Why would it allow anything other than survival of what now happens to exist?? That's really silly!!- Lol!!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
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@EffieReal "morality is just an instinctual brain firing, why is it negated by opposite instinctual brain firings?"
Why not? The universe is the construct of conflict!
All your arguments rely on a ridiculous presupposition that an unobservable entity(with nothing to distinguish it from fantasy) You need a premise based on what CAN be mutually observed to be true.
We know how programmed you have been by your superstitions. You need to demonstrate that you can think outside that!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal " Conscience vs. nature, spirit vs. flesh, that fits with observable behavior. "
Only man's concept (often in ignorance) sees a conflict between his conscience and nature. There might be a conflict in his instincts , or between his intellect and instnct( which IS nature). -This conflict between instinct and intellect easily explains man's belief in gods.
There is no observable evidence of spirit without the observable functioning of living flesh. No claim you made there fits.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim That is faulty. If you admit to the conflict (and you do) yet you believe man is basically an evolved creature, brain function, intellect, etc. are then all a result of this evolution. How can a creature evolve with diametrically opposing instincts? So, yes my claims are observable. Humans are in constant state of conflict which does not fit with the evolution model.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "How can a creature evolve with diametrically opposing instincts?"
Strawman! You are still arguing with a presupposition which I have negated. Where is the conflict, without presupposing objective morality and "God"? Why don't you give me an example which doesn't require the biblical god to be fact?
However, if you mean survival traits which conflict, it is commonplace, as long as the conflict itself isn't fatal . religion is likely a conflict of two such human characteristics.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim LOL. That is funny. You admit the conflict. Yet you deny the conflict. You have not demonstrated a thing except an adherence to your philosophy of atheism. I know you adhere to that, but it also fits within my example. You use it to rationalize you own personal conflict. You are my walking textbook example. LOL
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "That is funny. You admit the conflict. Yet you deny the conflict. "
No.......I have demonstrated that morality is inconsistant in the various concepts of humanity. Therefore, it is NOT an objective "design" of any omniscient, immutable entity outside of human opinion.
You are STILL assuming what I have already negated make your flawed argument
Why can you not provide the evidence or reasoning to support your claims?
For a start, which "conflict" do I both concede and deny?.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal " You use it to rationalize you own personal conflict."
Ahh the classic Christian ad hominem mindreading!!
- Have you got a damn logical argument.-Lol!
So you think my reasons for destroying your illogical argument, with reasoning you can't even attempt to respond to, is to cover some secret hidden conflict which you know all about? Who told you? Jesus? Angel Gabriel?
I think it's safe to say that you are handling your loss this argument in a very embarrassing way! - Lol!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim It's not my fault that your personal choice of philosophy is not consistent with observable behavior. Atheism and evolution do not account for the conflict of the individual. The divergent philosophies that men espouse have nothing to do with my point. The conflict is within the individual. You know better, but you do it anyway. People don't even uphold their own personal belief systems. Even those who keep it at a bare minimum in order to avoid any possible feelings of guilt.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "It's not my fault that your personal choice of philosophy is not consistent with observable behavior"
It is your fault when you premise an argument, on an easily refuted claim, which you cannot logically defend, yet you keep relying on it .
Your claims of "conflict" rely on there being such a thing as an objective moral law, the articles of which are consistent in the conscience of ALL people, beyond argument.
You need to prove this exists - Where is your evidence?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal " Atheism and evolution do not account for the conflict of the individual."
You need to make a logical case that there is a conflict with an objective moral law, in the conscience of ANY individual, you must first demonstrate that there is such a thing as this moral law. I have shown you the inconsistency of what different human conscience tell them is "moral", "just", "good" or "evil".
Make your argument that their is, in fact, such a thing as this universal "moral law"
Tobytrim 3 months ago
"The conflict is within the individual. You know better, but you do it anyway."
You think this is better evidence for a "perfect creator"???
You claim your god to be so omnipotent and omniscient that this shouldn't happen. There is nothing outside of a blind belief in a "Lawgiving" creator,that saysthist is so. Science claims nothing to be " uniquely and perfectly designed" - Something only needs to be able to exist.
Your argument debunks god It doesn't justify a belief in one!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim "You think this is better evidence for a "perfect creator"???" I think that this is evidence that your claims are false at best and hypocritical at worst. I think this is evidence that your philosophy doesn't account for reality so you must rationalize it. I think that makes my philosophy superior.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Yet you jumped into this video commenting that you hold your morality above the God of scriptures. How would that work? There is no right or wrong, so your opinion on the matter is limited by your own emotional reactions within your very limited framework of experience and learning. Just one man's opinion. Why even bother with it? It's just a matter of personal distaste. There is no such thing as "wrong" anyway. Seems rather futile to argue the point at all from this perspective.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "There is no right or wrong, so your opinion on the matter is limited by your own emotional reactions"
Absolutely!!
If you include intellect, consensus, empathy, and instinct etc - ALL morality is such ...Even that of the "godly" (which I ALSO demonstrated logically).
However, let's ignore the fallacy in your arguments, and grant you this "objective God's law".
By the standard of THAT, I am most certainly morally superior to this hypocritical entity. Do you endorse slavery?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
" Atheism and evolution do not account for the conflict of the individual."
What conflict?? Where have you observed a conflict, and against WHICH standard? How do you know there is any conflict when you can't see into ANY conscience to know what is there in the first place??
Your argments are silly, and go nowhere. You're simply preaching with no logical premise!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Yes, ignoring the testimony of millions of people who admit to "knowing better" but "doing it anyway" is simply "MY" having invented an observation in my widdle head. * eye-roll* Also, I must be insane to think that there is ANYBODY on earth guilty of breaking laws that they knew were both illegal and immoral, but determining to do it anyway. Nope, never happened. Truth is: Everyone breaks their moral rules, even the minimal ones that the anti-God crowd make up for themselves.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal " I must be insane to think that there is ANYBODY on earth guilty of breaking laws that they knew were both illegal and immoral"
No you're just stupid to think you can get that strawman past me!
No-one is saying that people don't have a conscience and that we feel guilty if we go against it. Our tribal ancestors would not have survived without that instinct to conform to the will of the community. The point you cannot respond to is that this moral conscience is inconsistent!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal "Everyone breaks their moral rules, even the minimal ones that the anti-God crowd make up for "
Correct!! And as you point out, everyone, even the "anti god crowd" AND "The God crowd" too, have their own version of morality which isn't necessarily consistent with another. The difference is that the irrational among us make up a god and say he has instilled an "objective, universal, immutable moral law in the conscience of each human being, which is clearly not the case!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim You admitted to this then you retracted it. I understand, if you didn't have rationalization like that to fall back on , you entire personally chosen philosophy would crumble. So , keep denying reality all you want. It's not going to change it. Nor my opinion of your choices.
EffieReal 3 months ago
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@EffieReal "You admitted to this then you retracted it."
Everything I've written is still on this thread. Find what I admitted, find the retraction, then paste both up.
I don't even know what you're referring to and I call you a liar!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Speaking of silly arguments....subjective morality. Now, THAT'S silly. If someone does something to you, say, sleep with your mate. Not illegal. Can't appeal to courts (not that had anything to do with morality). Not socially damning for the person, successful people do that sort of thing all of the time with no repercussions. So can't appeal to society. All you have in your appeal is your internal awareness that you have been wronged. You know that you have been violated.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal"Speaking of silly arguments....subjective morality"
I really don't care how silly you think the fact that morality is a subjective concept in your tiny and opinionated mind. I have logically demonstrated that morality IS a human concept, and you can't demonstrate otherwise.
The rest of your comment actually verifies my point. There is a reason why "sleeping with your mate" is not illegal - there's obviously nothing wrong with it, even If don't personally find it a tasteful act .
Tobytrim 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Tobytrim said (apparently with a straight face): "The rest of your comment actually verifies my point. There is a reason why "sleeping with your mate" is not illegal - there's obviously nothing wrong with it, even If don't personally find it a tasteful act ." My reply: BWAHAHAHAAAAAHAAAAA "nothing WRONG with..." LOLOL AH HAAAAAA . *sigh...That was a good one. Thanks for the laugh.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@Tobytrim No, I'm not buying it. A personally distasteful act is green peppers on pizza. Just because I find it so, does that make it a "wrong" act? Of course not. Raping a 3 year old to death is wrong. Not just personally distasteful. To witness the atrocities committed by vile contemptible types and callously claim them to be merely an "example of subjective morality", or merely "personally distasteful" or "not truly wrong because nothing is" would be an untenable and outright evil.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@Tobytrim But, the perpetrator has another "subjectively chosen system of morality" and therefore disagrees. Too bad for you. Just have to accept their choices, it's all subjective. Now, even if you argue that you would *yeah, right. There are countless other examples that could be drawn. Each contributing to the decimation of society as anarchy and moral lawlessness are acceptable so long as you have a personal philosophy that allows for the violations. Extrapolated, this does not work.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal " it's all subjective. Now, even if you argue that .........."
No......I'm not just arguing it, as I have pointed out on every comment board on this thread, I have DEMONSTRATED that it is all subjective and relative.
You are relying on morality being demonstrably objective, to make your initial argument on this, you failed to prove your point nor negate mine, yet you are STILL argung with this assumption.
It's time to put up or shut up now - This is getting ridiculous!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim So, I'm saying this before bedtime. You have espoused a morally repugnant philosophy whilst denying the existence of your belief in it while also violating the tenants of it while also denying the conflict which this creates for you as an individual while also attempting to divert the topic to your misunderstandings of scripture and God's opinions on slavery while also decreeing your moral superiority to pretty much everyone and everything discusses. As I said, complete FAIL.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "So, I'm saying this before bedtime. You have espoused a morally repugnant philosophy whilst denying the existence of your belief" Ha ha! Well to be more accurate, all I'm expressing here is a non-acceptence of YOUR repugnant belief, based on an acceptance of the bible as literal truth!
This is observable in all the desperate and wrong guesses you're making here, about what you think I DO believe. Lol!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim But even more pertinent to the discussion than the ill effects on "society" is the fact that YOU KNOW that you were violated. It doesn't matter where you are from, how you were raised, or in what you choose to believe. The wrongness that you have suffered is something that no one had to explain to you. You didn't learn it from a book (holy or otherwise), a leader or a school. You innately know that you have been wronged. You know what wrong is when it happens to you (every person).
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal " You innately know that you have been wronged. You know what wrong is when it happens to you (every person)."
Of course you do!! Higher intellects can also apply empathy to what hurts us. (there's a version of the "golden rule) in every ancient culture. - So bloody what??!
That is the basis of our understanding of our justice and morality. It is still inconsistent , and therefore NOT the objective construct of a god!
Why can't you get this? - Are you dishonest or stupid ?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim "Are you dishonest or stupid ?" Neither. You are 1. rude and 2. ignorant of the subject. You have obviously been indoctrinated into the culture of moral relativism and it suits your chosen lifestyle of (as you said) greed, selfishness and lust. So, FYI, differing cultural practices =/= differing morality. It merely demonstrates differing facts/factors. Treating people as you would like to be treated may have disagreement in some cultures this does not negate it's objective truth.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal" Treating people as you would like to be treated may have disagreement in some cultures this does not negate it's objective truth."
But you are an idiot! -
You do not HAVE the objective truth - You are denying it!! You used, what you thought, was a logical argument, I debunked it immediately, You couldn't negate my reasoning, yet you CARRY on with the SAME arguments which relies on the same fallacy you have been shown. That is stupidity!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Kid, your proclamations of my so-called stupidity 1. do not carry water, 2. do not prove any of your arguments, 3. do not prove your personal philosophy is superior, 4. do prove that you are rude.
Be "not rude" or begone. ~signed, Moral Objectivity
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "Kid, your proclamations of my so-called stupidity......"
...are accurate, and there for anyone else to confirm for themselves.
I have explained why you are either intellectually dishonest, or intellectually void!
You claim an objective morality which I negated and you cannot respond to, yet you continue to premise your arguments by relying on this assumption.
Address my argument or get used to being called an idiot!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
"You resort to personal attacks and dismiss questions as not worthy of your answering."
Wow!! Talk about the hypocrisy of Christianity!!!! You have responded with nothing but ad homs! - lol!
I answered every disingenuous, piss poor argument you make - yet you ignore every one I make. You haven't even responded to my rebuttal of your initial premise . - ONCE MORE - Where is your evidence or logical justification that there is objective morality- Independent of, and universal to humanity?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim You know, in re-reading some of this discussion I have decided that you are incapable or unwilling to answer any questions posed to you that threaten your beliefs. You resort to personal attacks and dismiss questions as not worthy of your answering. That is called rationalization and deflection. You are a bundle of emotional and aggressive responses. I'm bored with you now. Again. Twice to many times. You did not prove anything but your own inconsistent belief system which fails.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@Tobytrim An entire culture could be controlled and lead into committing atrocities. They could be in agreement at the time (or mostly in agreement). This does NOT negate the fact that they are committing atrocities. Therefore their culture does not change objective truth/morality. Back to differing practices, just because some people eat pigs and others think pigs are "unclean" doesn't demonstrate differing morality, it demonstrates differing factual perception.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "This does NOT negate the fact that they are committing atrocities. Therefore their culture does not change objective truth/morality"
Who decides what is an attrocity, you moron?!! You haven't demonstrated that there is any objective morality independent of human concept. And I have demonstrated there isn't.
We certainly know that God has no moral laws regarding attrocities - Check the bible.
By the way, you still never said whether you agree with God's endorsement of slavery?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim "Slavery" ? That is a rookie accusation. Do some more research hotshot. Nope. Yes, atrocities are what they are regardless of culture, or variations of personal philosophy. When a 3 year old watches her family butchered by a warring tribe and she and her mother are raped and thrown in a fire. YOU look her in the eyes and tell her that the violation that she experienced is not objectively wrong. In fact, it's only a product of her cultural upbringing to imagine this.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "Slavery" ? That is a rookie accusation. Do some more research hotshot." Ha ha!!- You obviously haven't:
If you read, for example, Lev 25 44-46 ( Don't have me quote it , you dishonest twerp!) you will clearly read "God" quoted as allowing for slaves to be taken from surrounding cultures. So answer the question - Do YOU, PERSONALLY, agree with "God" that slavery is not an immoral institution?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim I KNEW you would resort to out of context bible quotes. Rookie.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal" I KNEW you would resort to out of context bible quotes. Rookie."
Then show me what a "rookie" I am, show the "out of context", and totally destroy my argument.
You will also show yourself not to be a brainwashed moron at the same time.
What is your claim here? Are you saying god did NOT endorse slavery in this passage.
I will be really amused to read your "apologetic" for this?
Is it the one about the "old covenant" ?lol! - That's a good one - I enjoy that one!!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal It's my bedtime, so I'll give you time to come up with a really good apologetic for this one.
Then I have a few more posits for you to respond to, regarding your claim of morality and justice being objective and "God's will".
The question again: - Do you agree with "God's" endorsement of slavery in the bible? (Leviticus 25:44-46, for example)
If you don't, how does this tally with your claim that morality is a universal constant? Show everyone what a rookie I am! - Lol!!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
"YOU look her in the eyes and tell her that the violation that she experienced is not objectively wrong"
I can do better than that, I can tell her that I as a demonstrably existent sentience, and a member of the only verified species with the intellect to feel that kind of empathy, that I personally think what has happened to her is wrong, and that the bulk of humanity feels the same way.. This would be more comfort to her than discussing philosophy or telling her about YOUR imagined pal!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim That's not better. That's disgusting. The very idea that there is no actual wrong, only occasional consensuses by the masses that blow this way and that like the winds is something that would be comforting? Not at all. That only demonstrates the open door that you leave for people to disagree and the permission you give them in you relativistic dogma to do this. This says, "It's not OK for most people, buuuuut for some it is and we shouldn't judge them because it's all relative. "
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "the utter fail of your belief system"
I have no belief system which you can pinpoint. I simply don't accept yours. In order for "my non belief in YOUR system" to fail, you would have to prove yours beyond reasonable doubt!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Nope. Your belief system, includes atheism, moral relativity and evolution (as a philosophy as well as a scientific principle). I have shown your moral relativity to be utter fail...and repugnant. The atheism and evolutionary philosophies that you hug so tightly also fail when that leg is removed.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal I've been going over what you are writing here, and I'm getting nothing from you but speculative personal comments about what you think I believe. - Have you actually got any logical arguments to offer at all?
You haven't addressed any of the posits I've used to shoot your apparently irrational superstitions and repulsive dogmas.
I guess that must mean you're wrong, eh?
Are you going to say whether you agree, with your God, that slavery is a morally acceptable practice?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal " I have shown your moral relativity to be utter fail...and repugnant."
You showed morality NOT to be relative?? OK let's have it again? - I must have missed that - lol!
And who finds it repugnant? - You??? Do you find "moral relativity repugnant when you see examples of it being it commanded or endorsed , by "god"in your "good book"?
You STILL haven't answered the question! Do you agree with your "God", as quoted in the bible, that slavery is morally acceptable?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
"That's not better. That's disgusting. The very idea that there is no actual wrong"
Of course there is wrong , even a concieved wrong, If it is held inclusively by a single group of people it is "objective" within that group. It is still ONLY subjectively concieved by that group.
You have foolishly been proposing moral objectivity which is beyond humanities concept, as evidence for god.
I have demonstrated this to be a fallacy, because of it's inconsistency between human groups.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim You have demonstrated no inconsistency between human groups of moral conscience. Only of behavior and factual inconsistencies. Your will does not change this. Your "belief" that you deny you have, yet another of your inconsistencies, does not do anything but demonstrate the rational pretzel you must contort yourself into to hold a belief and yet violate it whilst simultaneously denying your conflict.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@Tobytrim Despite your lip service the the most morally repugnant of all philosophies (relativism) you don't even practice what you preach. You point out the "wrongness" of humans and entities who disagree with you. You only have a basic law, and you can't even keep that. You are just as conflicted as everyone else. Denial ain't just a variety of crocodile in Egypt. You are not impressive. Just repeated regurgitation of public school moral relativism and shallow atheism websites. Yawn.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "You point out the "wrongness" of humans and entities who disagree with you."
That's easy with you. If you make an argument, which I can easily refute, and which you can't logically support, you tell you, yourself show everyone that you are wrong! - Lol!
Can you, or can you not, demonstrate an objective morality, using logic or evidence, without relying on "faith in your god" and his ascribed dogma being true?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim I have not only demonstrated this, I have demonstrated the existence of the evidence for it and the reason that your philosophy does not accommodate reality and (completely by accident) you personal inability to comprehend anything discussed including the utter fail of your belief system.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal" I have not only demonstrated this, I have demonstrated the existence of the evidence"
No you haven't - I have had to ask, again and again, with every preaching comment you type here.
However, here is your chance to make a fool or a liar out of me.
Present evidence, without invoking faith in your god, that there is an objective morality? Then negate all the examples, which we have BOTH offered here that it is relative, and an inconsistant human concept?
You yourself admit this!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@Tobytrim So here's the funny part. You know what(ever) was done to you is wrong. You might even consider yourself a "good person" who has personal ethics which includes not doing to others what you would hate having done to you. Nevertheless, you HAVE done things just like those things you hate. Possibly even worse. You know right from wrong solely as a result of conscience and personal violation. Yet rationalize it when you choose to violate your conscience. Hence the conflict.
EffieReal 3 months ago
@EffieReal "So here's the funny part. You know what(ever) was done to you is wrong." I know that something is right or wrong by the standard which is programmed by my nurturing. Someone from another culture , or even under different circumstance, would have a different standard.
Killing is wrong in peacetime but not in war. Slavery was once virtuous among the godly and law abiding. - It isn't now.
Morality is obviously determined by human standard. So what are you trying to argue here?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
You keep insisting that your evidence for there being a "God" is some "observation", personally claimed by you, that people are in conflict with a universal law which man is not the author of. You cannot demonstrate the existence of this, and I have demonstrated it's non existence. Yet your "evidence" which is actually in contradiction to what CAN be observed, relies on a blind assumption that "God" exists. Can you get more circular?
Either provide your evidence or concede the point.
.
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal " Humans are in constant state of conflict which does not fit with the evolution model"
Your piss poor philosophical reason and intellectual dishonesty aside, why don't you take a moment to explain why you think the above statement is so? I think it might provide a little comic relief to examine your understanding of how evolution works- Lol!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
@EffieReal "That is faulty. If you admit to the conflict (and you do)"
No I don't......I ASSERT that there is INCONSISTENCY of moral conception
. Learn the difference, then demonstrate how there could be a conflict of conscience when all consciences do not have the same definition of what is good and what is evil.
I'm still waiting for you to provide reasoning or evidence that the concept of good and evil are universal or even objective. (Many times now) What is your argument for this??
Tobytrim 3 months ago
"Your observations of the different behaviors of individuals and societies fit just fine within my illustrations."
No it doesn't! - It negates YOUR claim that morality is "objective".and universally the same to all human consciences. You make this claim to suggest that "God" is the ONLY way to explain this "Objective morality", and that secular reasoning can't explain it.
I have done this beyond any response from you..
Put up or shut up!
Tobytrim 3 months ago
If morality is the construct of one true universal "God"?, why is it inconsistant in the minds and cultures and various eras of humanity?
Why, indeed, are the "moral laws" of the Old testament, different from those of the New.
Why are BOTH inconsistent from what Christians believe to be right or wrong today.
Isn't "God's word" immutable, unchanging? -
Is "God" a liar?
Or do Christians simply make up their own moral laws and decide , for themselves, what is right or wrong?
Tobytrim 3 months ago
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Tobytrim 6 months ago
Man; you Say we should warn the 'raging heathen' of hell and at the same time i hear you passionately shout out details of it's horrors which sounds as if you are gaining great joy and satisfaction in imagining certain people tortured in this way, I may indeed be discerning a spirit of masochism which cannot honor God and so should be destroyed in hell, to burn it out with the fire of God's love.
KingdomUploader 6 months ago
Woe unto you false prophets and false teachers who deceive the spiritually dead and pervert the word of God , the scriptures speak to you who do not abide in His word but in folly, for the word speaks to your foolishness, cry out to your god of carnality, lay low below your altar of deceit for you are but a fool, prone to falsehood. A man's pride shall bring him low, but honor shall uphold the humble in spirit. “Proverbs 29:23
Rylucero 6 months ago
Woe unto you false prophets and false teachers who deceive the spiritually dead and pervert the word of God , the scriptures speak to you who sit with much anticipation awaiting your riches, for the foolish man seeks after temporal things for he has no heart for God because he is spiritually dead. Quickly, defend these fools for you have no desire for godly wisdom nor to glorify Him, for you have only contempt for spiritual knowledge and wisdom.
Rylucero 6 months ago
Woe unto you false prophets and false teachers who deceive the spiritually dead and pervert the word of God , you who stand before your altar of apostasy, to you who is not submissive, nor meek, nor humble, nor patient, nor full of love, nor willing to submit to the father but only to the lusts of the flesh and the wisdom of men, for this is the lot of