@OriahLivingston (What is He doing there? ) Well lets see what scripture says.
H10 we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Christ once & 4 all. This priest had offered 4 all time 1 sacrifice 4 sin. He sat down at the right hand of God. since that time He waits 4 His enemies 2 be made His footstool bc by 1 sacrifice He has made perfect forever.
Jesus said, also, I go to prepare a place for you.
@game11221 I'll be honest, I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Your responses don't even relate to what I am posting, so it's hard to get on any level of conversing with you.
@O since u say sda have it right, I am trying to figure out what u believe. That is really what I am trying to do
As to the atonement, some say it was completed at the cross, others say not complete. I know what u are saying & I am a exsda. So do u believe in the 1844 IJ doctrine?
Sins were placed on the lamb then lamb died, blood 2 mercy seat.
Sins of the world placed on Christ, He died. blood on mercy seat. not over & over like the HP once a yr.
@game11221 I said that? or you claim I did? (B) - answer
I like to study with people who use the Bible as their doctrinal base. That is me. No I don't know what any 1844 IJ doctrine is & I don't get myself wrapped up in founders of churches & hold them in high esteem. The minute you start preaching someones interpretation of the Bible, I am out of the room. So if you want to label me an SDA, go for it, but if you are saying I read Ellen White, you are grossly misguided & that's your def. of one.
@game11221 Blood on mercy seat. Here is the difference, you claim you know what I am saying. We have Christ blood covering us, but it does not cover a sin like the original lamb did until there was a sin. Why kill a lamb if there's no sin? Furthermore, that blood doesn't cover a sin & the sinner isn't cleansed until they are asked to be. Otherwise you have an unconfessed sin & that part of you is not purified with any blood. Do you read me? Having someone to slay alone does not sanctify someone.
@OriahLivingston Yes the blood keeps on cleansing us. thing is we are worse then ever expected, Are you saying, that even forgotten sin that's not repented for your a goner?
As to killing a lamb if no sin, there has always been sin
do u believe in imputed righteousness?
as 2 u being a sda, I did not say you were. You said u think they have it right, so I asked if u believe in the 1844 thing, you said no, ok. but you don't know if they are right you don't know there doctrine
@game11221 The Bible talks about forgotten sin. Look it up. What is your point? Say you accept Christ as the one who died for you, yet you just live a sinful life & never pray or repent. What do you think is the outcome? You live a great life, you are kind etc. but you have sinned like all do & never once repented. What happened to Saul? Since you aren't saved by works or being nice, what happens to you? Do you not get it's more than simply believing & having faith? W/faith comes responsibility.
@OriahLivingston Never said not to repent, if you notice I said repent "YES"
I never said, grace is a license to sin.
when you speak of Christ in you, that is sanctification.
imputed righteousness is, the merits of Christ imputed to the believer. He did it outside of us it is reckon.
So what I am gathering is, you believe that your righteousness saves, by you reaching such a sanctification you will be excepted to God. So have you made it?
@game11221 Here's my point. Galatians 5:19 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Con'td-
@Ori Gal5:18 is saying led by the spirit, not under law, not under bondage of trying to please God by minute observance of th law for salvation. G19 IS GIVEN FOR NON BELIEVERS or backsliders or both.
See, here we see, its not so much the act of sin it's the sinful heart that acts. Instead of reading one verse as to a proof text method read other verses for the context
@game11221 1 Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
@OriahLivingston sexual sin not so good as to C6-9 Now read 6-10-11
God does save, & sanctify.
All you are proving is, if you except God, and continue in known sin, or unbeliever sins then thats a problem. there r many things we offend, you, me. all.
If you have faith in Christ you will before given. And sanctified!
But if you continue willfully in known sin, Like God said, we have freedom, but don't think it is ok to continue to sin (heart) I will destroy you.
@game11221 Ephesians 5:5 - For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
After reading these, do you not deny even those who have the faith in Jesus do at least one of these in their lives more than once? or have an impulse? To say no is to say we are flawless. If these behaviors or sins take away your right to the kingdom, yes I believe there a certain place God wants you to be.
@Ori Ephesians 5:5 meaning, a greedy man wants more things then he wants God, puts things in place of God.
they either do not believe, and that = not living in the Spirit
so my question, if works saves you as your implying, Knowing the law giver requires perfect in every word spoken, every motive,every desire, all your days, are you then perfect, as you imply this scrip. If what your implying is true then 1 slip your done for.
@OriahLivingston God wants to save the sinner! That why He sent His Son.
the believer lives in the Spirit.
works does not save!!!! our works are as dirty as rags. Saved by the merits of Christ as long as you believe, His righteousness is imputed to you. then your sanctified. You heart looses the desire of the things of this world, and you run to the light. See most think sin is a act, OT believer, But sin is a attitude, meaning we do nothing that is not in our heart.NC
@OriahLivingston In a previous post you said "atoning is an on going process. There is always sin taking place." The first part of your statement is not biblical. Atonement is a completed act that took place nearly 2000 yrs ago. It is not ongling otherwise Jesus is still hanging on the Cross and we are still in our sins. It is its merits that are ongoing. Sin is indeed always taking place and thats why we the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1Jn 1)
@OriahLivingston The word "cleanses" in the Greek is present tense, (i.e. ongoing) The result of the atonement is that we are ALWAYS covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. God HAS reconciled the world to Himself through the Cross. Notice the past tense in Colossians 2:13-15:
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
13 He HAS delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we HAVE redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
@game11221 I mean do you think God accepts you when you do these things? That's why the process of sanctification is a process to try and strive away from these things to be righteous as Christ did. I am reading from you you are accepted no matter what. Not all things/behaviors are acceptable to Christ, like you claim to state (This is my point).
@game11221 I already answered yes to imputed righteousness when you asked it earlier. There is no righteousness unless it comes from Christ working within you. That ties in with faith. But faith is believing that Christ is present with you in your life. It's present when you know in your heart He is there when things in life throw themselves at you and there is comfort and guidance to do the right thing.
@Oriaj Justification means not make righteous as we are reformed, but accepted as righteous, declared righteous. Glory of the gospel, insurance of internal life. Even if I fall, I am accepted in Him R:8
When our Lord died as our representative, He took our place. In my place He stood sealed me w His blood. Justified is the open door 2 the temple beautiful. More then forgiveness, it's acquittal, God says, I will count u as u never sinned. The imputation of the merits of Christ
@game11221 That is important because sanctification is never perfected, it's an on going process. That's why you need someone atoning your sins with the blood that was given. This takes place today in the tabernacle not made with hands. That's where our Lord is! Standing in the presence of the Father for us. If He were not atoning, He would not be there and if He is not there, why hasn't He returned? He knows our history, why doesn't He have a date otherwise saying when He will return?
@OriahLivingston The atonement was finished at the cross, Meaning, He took my place, He was treated as I deserve so I can be treated as He deserves. He took upon Him the sin of the world. Sins of yesterday,today,& tomorrow, I am in Him by faith. his righteousness is imputed to the believer. He keeps on cleansing us. By His death He ratified a New Cov. repent YES! By repenting his blood cleanses us, the blood is there, the sacrifice is excepted. For all the believe.
1) What takes place when you sin and it is covered? A word please. (b/c that's the definition of atonement) look it up.
2) What does God need to be in a tabernacle for if atonement is complete?
3) Where is He now?
4) What is He waiting for?
All answers btw I want a Biblical answer. Chapter and verse please. I don't want your opinion, that is speculation. 2 Peter 1:20 (no private interpretations please)
@OriahLivingston Again! This priest had offered 4 all time 1 sacrifice 4 sin. He sat down at the right hand of God. *since that time He waits 4 His enemies 2 be made His footstool bc by 1 sacrifice He has made perfect forever* Jesus said, also, I go to prepare a place for you.
Christ is the temple, tear down this temple & in 3 days I will rebuild it, He was talking about His Body.
@game11221 He hasn't returned b/c atoning is a process and not even the angels in Heaven know when He is done doing it. He decides Himself when He is done atoning.
@game11221 This world is Lucifers. Read Revelation 11:15, this kingdom is not the Lord's yet lol read your bible man the seventh trumpet has not yet blown. He won't return until He leaves the holy of holies, which evidently goes shwoosh! right over your head. When He leaves (there) He returns. He isn't sitting around waiting for anything, that's what you don't get. There is a reason is He where He is and you don't understand why that is.
Jew and Gentile, Olive tree & Lampstand, Old & New Testaments = Christians , You are the Witnesses ! John 8, 17-19 makes this clear as crystal ,But SATANS CHURCH has told you, You will be RAPTURED, "I sit a widow and shall see no sorrow". What did Jesus say ? I will bring you THRU the fire, I will refine you like silver is refined, Like fine gold ,I will make you WORTHY to be called by my NAME! He warns you to PUT on the WHOLE ARMOR,So that you will not seek to, "Save your LIFE, Lose your Soul"
@DefendYourRights1 He's trying to prepare you, for the Mark of the Beast ! Those who refuse the Mark,He shall caused to be KILLED, Here is theWisdom and Patience of the Saints, He who kills by the Sword, must be Killed BY the Sword {OF JESUS} He who takes into captivity {NWO} shall go into captivity {HELL}.
The adventist are WRONG too ! The still keep alot of the Catholic rituals .....Such as the wafer and wine, this is to be done on PASSOVER ONLY, Paul said; do you not have houses to eat in ? They also forbid eating MEAT....WRONG . Show your Preachers that SUNDAY WORSHIP is the "KEY TO THE PIT", If he refuses to listen, Dust off you feet and leave ! Find one that will listen, A Spirit filled Preacher will know this already, as he should know ,who the 2 witnesses are .
@DefendYourRights1 Remember that phrase the LITTLE FLOCK ! You understand now WHY it's called that , Because out of ALL the denomes ,claiming they're the TRUE gospel . I haven't found one YET ,but i'm searching ! I live in NC ,Anyone know a church like this ?
Constantine changed "TIMES", He claimed APOLLOS {PRINCE of the PIT} was worthy of worship ,He hated anything Jewish, and ordered the Catholic church ,to depart from all jewish practices. And he Changed the Catholic day of worship, to SUNDAY, This is why the Protestants are as lost as the Catholics, Sunday Worship is the" KEY "to the Bottomless Pit ! The 2 Witnesses are found in JOHN 8 :17-19, God warned how many times? If POSSIBLE, the beast would decieve even the ELECT, Who? THE ELECT !
"What right have the Protestant churches to observe that day [Sunday]? None whatsoever... It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And has not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the council of Laodicea, A.D. 364 anathemized those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the seventh day under penalty of anathama." (Industrial American, Harlan Iowa; a published lecture by T. Enright, December 19, 1889)
"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?"
"Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." (The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, by Peter Geiermann, 50)
@TheH Oh come on! Why do you swallow all that SDA propaganda? Do you believe RCC or the Bible? Only God can change times and laws. Look, the Law of Moses was a contract God made with Israel. They broke it and now it is obsolete. There is a new contract God made with spiritual Israel -- Christians. Hello! a NEW contract. Its called the NEW COVENANT.
The letter which kills has gone and is replaced by the spirit which is life. Why do you believe in a lie?.
@TheH Christ fulfilled ALL the OT Law and Prophets. One man did what Israel failed to do. So now its all over (2000 years ago!) and the Law has been replaced by Christ so our life is in Him not law The Law was a shadow of things to come.All the Law including Ten Commandments with its Sabbath are fulfilled in Christ and the spirit of all the Law is fulfilled in us by God Himself plus universal law.
Why do you disobey the gospel of Christ? Why are you promoting the Galatian heresy?
For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son! By the merits of Christ we are looked upon. If we hold to him by faith we are held as spotless as His Son. The cross is the glory or the gospel.
Grace is a free gift. This is not cheap grace! We do have a part to play, to look after the faithful one! Ethics is gratitude! Religion is grace
To take the cross from the Christian is like blotting the sun out of the ski! We are saved by grace by faith! Our Lords blood covers us like a cloud over you all your days. Long as you keep your eye on Him you can not be lost. He died for me, He represented for me. I am accepted in the beloved by the grace of God
@game11221 A cross is a pagan symbol, you can keep it and Tammuz the god it represents. He was hung on a tree, also a definition under the greek word Strauss. Just check out it in 1 Peter 2:24, examples that relate in: Galatians 3:13, Joshua 8:29 & 10:26, Deuteronomy 21:22-23. Shame on the Pharisees who murdered Him in this fashion, anyone who hung on a tree was under the curse of God.
All scholars of worth agree the Greek word for justification means not make righteous as we are reformed, but accepted as righteous, declared righteous. That is the glory of the gospel! Go to sleep with the insurance of internal life. Even if I fall, I am accepted in Him Rom 4:8 He became what He was not, so I could become what I am not. It is not a matter of who you are, but who's you are, the devils or Christ's
Legalism manifest it self 2 cling to any doctrine that is above its place. If anything supersedes Christ manifested in faith,hope & love anymore then that it becomes heretical it becomes legalistic. Obedience from the heart out of love of Christ doesnt imply legalism.but sin as a act does
Heb9 Christ entered ONCE into the Holiest of all with His own blood, having (past tense) obtained internal redemption. This was said before the turn of the 1st century not in 1844 but at the resurrection
@brianhyde63 Really? the commandments contained in ordinances like in Ephesians 2:15? That were set beside the ark Deuteronomy 31:26 in the Book of the Law are the same as the ones put into the ark in 1 Kings 8:9? written by the finger of God Himself? So we can throw out Hebrews 13:8 and Malachi 3:6 cause God now lies? How about reading Revelation 22:14 saying those who keep them may have way to the tree of life and enter through the gate and called among the great there also in Matthew 5:19
@OriahLivingston The commandments referred to in the New Testament are the commandments of Christ. But of course if you interpret through Moses you will read them as the ten commandments. Christians are under law to Christ not Moses.
@brianhyde63 John 14:15, 1 John 2:3-6, 1 John 3:24 just to name some are quoting that old covenant in the new testament. I highly suggest you read them if you haven't considering youtube wouldn't allow the space for me to quote them all here. They give light to the foundation of Mark 12:30,31 and what it means to truly show Christ is living through you and how your relationship is with Him and man/other people. Isn't that the new covenant? He is just re-quoting that which was already said.
@OriahLivingston "He is just re-quoting that which was already said"
No, the Master wasn't just requoting what was already said, otherwise why do we have 800 or more new laws in the New Testament revealed to us through the Spirit? And read carefully in Matthew 5 where Christ repeatedly states "You have heard it said....BUT I SAY unto you" Brother, wake up,, this is our Lord speaking, redefining law He had given through Moses and magnifiying it - from the mere letter to the glorious spirit.
@OriahLivingston Good question my brother. The answer is multi-faceted. First of all it is GOD'S work.Jeremiah 31:31-34 tells us that under the New Covenant GOD promies tol write His law (divine principles or universal law) on our heart and give us a heart to obey Him, i.e. new heart. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that salvation is a GIFT of grace and not of our works (it is the fruit of salvation). So good works are equally a GIFT.
@brianhyde63 Right my point was having that in your heart, He is living through you therefore you....? Fill in the blank as in living what I was expressing. That is my point about Ephesians 2:15, there is a difference between the commandments contained in ordinances and commandments contained in the covenant which are the word of God. His word doesn't change no matter what day it is. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the 10 commandments were done away with. However in Galatians works save you not
@OriahLivingston God's word does change because it is progressive revelation. That's why under the Old Covenant they were to offer sacrifices and keep the sabbath and thats why under the New Covenant we offer live by the merits of Christ's Sacrifice and keep the spiritual rest that is ours in Christ. U can fill in the blank by reading by adding the Lor'ds commandments found thro'out the NT "Love one another as I have loved you" is one such eg. And if u need a definition of love read 1 Cor 13.
@brianhyde63 Paul said that the Law could be used as a teaching instrument as long as we used itmlawfully,(1 Tim 1) which means that we cannot use the law as an instrument of righteousness. We are not under the law of Moses, but under the law of Christ
@OriahLivingston Philemon 2:13 tells us that it is GOD who works in us both to will (desire) and to do (act) HIS good pleasure (His will).The heart is deceitful desperately wicked (Jer 17:9; Isa 1:6) so ONLY GOD knows what in the heart and needs to change in your life and mine for we certainly cannot know our heart and therefore our judgment is corrupted by our sinful nature. So we have to let God do the structuring in our lives
@OriahLivingston Now that is a work we receive through faith alone. We must believe God and depend on His Spirit 100%. As we do so His Spirit will REVEAL to us what we need to change in our character, lifestyle, etc. moment by moment. As many as are LED by the Spirit they are the sons of God (Rom 8:14). As I submit to the leading of the Spirit He reveals my sin and where I am going wrong and tells me what I must do to set things right.
@Or J14:15,21 If ye love me, keep my commandments.He that hath my commandments & keepeth them, he it is that loveth me& he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father & I will love him How can u, If ye, keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments & abide in his love Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command U Do what Jesus commands us, is not that enough? & shall we not be safe & sure of his love & the love of his Father
@Oria Luke says he was taken up, "after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen." Acts 1:2. If Jesus gave commandments through the Holy Ghost, would they not be the commandments of God?Now hear Paul as to what are the commandments in the gospel: "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." I Cor. 14:37
@game11221 Yes, if you strive to be saved by them. Have you not read? If you have grace which is faith, you have God in you, which allows you to strive on the path He directs you on which was in His likeness. Therefore you are allowing Him to take control of your life and guide you in the right path through them. People don't understand faith/grace. It's not just simply believing & knowing He forgives sins, that gives one an excuse to sin b/c he can be forgiven. How is that lifestyle righteous?
@OriahLivingston As I put forth efforts to obey Him He comes in with His grace and empowers me to do what I could not do before. i know this from personal experience and it never ceases to amaze me. It has happened to me time and time again. He changes my attitude and behaviour toward Him and others (my neighbour). He replaces the old with the new.This change is what we call regeneration or new birth because it results in a new life.It is a life of victory.
@brianhyde63 Obey Him how? To keep it short, that is the only message I seek to ask. If works do you not save you, what in the bible does it say that if you claim you know, love and abide in your God and vice versa, what you should do? it all comes again down to His commandments. Which are broken up into two commandments (1-4) and (5-10) in Mark 12:20,31. Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
@OriahLivingston You said ( not just simply believing & knowing He forgives sins,that gives one an excuse to sin b/c he can be forgiven)
See only a legalist would think grace is a license to sin. Some think, you have to be good to be saved. If I am good, then God will love me. This is a pagan philosophy. God loves you even if you are not good, and if you believe it you will become good.
You don't have to be good to be saved but, you have to be saved to be good
@game11221 If you knowingly do something you know is wrong and do it anyway, the Holy Spirit is not in you and there is no sacrifice left for sin (Hebrews 10:26), Christ has no part in you then lol what kind of a statement was that saying that doesn't matter aka I can be bad and that's okay? Talk to me again after you stop eating your bag of shrooms.
@Or See right there, u have taken what I have said & looked at it with a legalist eyes Problem when 1 takes the OT view as to sin is a act, were NT sin is a attitude, meaning we do nothing that is not in our heart
What my statement was saying is, some think if u don't reach perfection then
God wont love me & it's saying ur works will not save u. this does not mean ok have grace I can willfully sin, U mist the most important part (U have 2 be saved to be good
@game11221 You obviously didn't understand my point. If you had Christ written in your heart, you wouldn't purposely do something sinful thinking & say oh no big deal I'll just repent and I can (therefore live however I want) b/c in short that is the attitude you are giving off.I mean think about it, I can kill someone b/c I have an urge every other day then repent and everything is okay? Are you then living a life God smiles upon? If you have faith you believe He takes control of your life. Duh
And it seems your salvation depends on your own righteousness.
Funny how every time I speak of grace, someone will always assume I am saying grace is a license to sin, when nothing could be further from the true. Only a legalist would see it that way. Read Romans all of it and read Gal.
@game11221 Ya I actually don't follow Charles Taze Russell or the Watch Tower, furthermore I have a beard they wouldn't even allow me to sit in with them, but nice of you too put words in my mouth.
@OriahLivingston Legalism manifest to cling to any doctrine that is above its place. If anything supersedes Christ to Christ is manifested in faith, hope & love, anymore then that it becomes heretical, it becomes legalistic. Obedience from the heart out of love of Christ does not imply legalism. Bur salvation by works does.
@game11221 Yes that's what I have been saying, did I say otherwise? All I said is that people with the Holy Spirit obey God's law (the commandments, it shows we abide in Him. I know you said otherwise (put words in my mouth and tried labeling me) a JW of all things...how insulting, but I forgive you.
@OriahLivingston The flesh nature of man struggles with Salvation by Grace alone, so the flesh sets out "doing things" thereby justifying itself worthy of Salvation
We have a part to play, not striving to have faith, but looking after the faithful one. Faith is Gods gift to all that hear the gospel, if they don't reject it! So salvation becomes a matter of grace. By grace you are saved through faith, not of our selves, it is a gift of God! Free Gift! Were sin abounds grace much more abounds. Religion is grace, ethics is gratitude!
Transformed life does not justify a man but comes as a result of being justified=sanctification. Cant merit justification or work it by grace. If it could then salvation wouldnt be a gift of God. Justification = faith alone Christ's merits imputed 2 believer
James is not teaching works that justify saving faith But faith that justifies work but not justification of atonement.Works do not vindicate Christ death
SDA IJ +or- Trent=RCC 1 saved by works other kept by works
@OriahLivingston P1 I give what the atonment means to me this will take a few comments. Atonment is complete, Christ atoned once 4 all , if not He would have to die over & over. He sat down. The great atonment has been made open the way into the MHP has been shown. If the atonment is not complete then salvation is of works not by faith. no way around it.
@game11221 What do you think Christ is doing right now? read Hebrews chapter 9. He is high priest in the tabernacle not made by human hands. When He is done atoning "that" is when He will return. I don't know about you, but that makes sense to me, otherwise I don't know what the heck He is waiting for. John 3:13 - He's the only one there. Why else would He have ascended to Heaven? That gives light to Revelation 22:11 when he's "done atoning" let everyone be who they are, I've returned & am done.
@OriahLivingston R3:23 none of us is perfect & worthy of God. Isaiah59:2 explains punishment 4 our sin what we deserve. R 6:23 bc God loves us , He has made a provision 4 sinners. God sent His Son, died on the cross, paying the debt we owed with His blood, Then we have John 3:16. J3:36) salvation comes by our believing in Him, not of our selves a gift R6:23 given to those who accept Jesus as their Savior. Ephesians 2:8-9 Our acceptance by God ,God’s grace given though Christ
@O ?did the Father except Christ's sacrifice? R we justified by the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to the believer?
I 2 the law die 2 the law until U die 2 the law 2 live 2 Christ as a method of salvation U R lost
Distinguish from root & fruit. Root of Christian is faith in Christ trusting in Christ everything comes from that Fruit is always obedience, but obedience is not perfect because we are not, pray 4 forgiveness, many things we offend, not willing we all stumble
@game11221 Good luck finding a church that will shed light on that, although I do believe the SDA get it, there's one church anyway. But then again they are the only church also that washes their feet for communion which it says you have to do in John chapter 13 and to emphasize in verse 8 He tells Peter those who don't do this have no part in Him. That's Him saying it, not me, so if you want to say legalist for that lol go ahead and call the Lord one. Have you not read?
@OriahLivingston (washes their feet) Has nothing to do with legalism.
Think a little deeper.
(SDA get it) better think again , investigative judgment is a damning doctrine.
(what the heck He is waiting for.) To make the world His foot stool, & I go to prepare a place for you, When the gospel has reached the whole world then the end will come,
If He came tomorrow are you saved? Have you past the test? Are you good enough? have you reached such a sanctification?
@game11221 Hey, you don't get it, that's great, but if your intent is to have the last word, by all means brethren, you have the podium. This world is owned by Lucifer. To be a friend of the world is enmity w/the Lord. If He is high priest & in a heavenly tabernacle, until He finishes like the earthly high priest did in Leviticus, He ain't taking His robes off & coming to collect His people dude. Sorry you don't get that. But it is written take it or don't. No verse says He's finished up there.
@game11221 We have already been through this. Here's the answer you really want. Okay look, and I'll break it up so you can carefully read it like 2nd grade. If you sin pause and then repent pause the high priest which is christ pause covers that sin with His blood pause if He is high priest and in the heavenly tabernacle pause is that not what He is doing? When you call on the Lord and say forgive me father, who is the one that cleanses your sins? Am I going to have to reword this again? lol
@OriahLivingston Repent YES! Thats apart of sanctification. What Im saying, we can't atone for our sins, Christ has done it for us. He fulfilled it, It's complete. By excepting Him by faith alone, His blood covers us. We can not add to what He has already done. If atonement is not complete then He would have to die over & over. Blood of Christ keeps on cleansing us, as long as you believe.
@game11221 You still don't get my point man. Wow we really can't open the eyes of others can we?? This proves so much how the word of God really is truth in every aspect and that only He can make others see what they are too thick headed and stubborn to get. If atonement was complete...."there would be no need to repent"! Your sins would already be forgiven before you even committed them. Open your eyes!! How many times do I have to repeat myself?? When you repent, atoning is taking place! Geez!
@game11221 A sacrifice was only part of the ritual that took place in the tabernacle not the whole frickin process. You seem to think the sacrifice is the only step needed in the process that takes place to clear a sin. It's really annoying trying to explain the difference.
@game11221 Christ is in the heavenly tabernacle. It's says so in Hebrew 9:11,24. He's High Priest which was the most Holy who cleansed the sinner with the blood of an innocent. Christ died & His blood became the sacrifice so when you sin, then repent, His blood covers that sin & you are purified. This process took place in the tabernacle. This is why He is in the heavenly one. You are not purified just b/c His blood was given as thee sacrifice. If you don't understand any of this I am at a loss.
(So how tell me, what must one do to be saved?) You are swaying from the topic I am talking about. This question has nothing to do with atoning.
(And do you believe that Christ righteousness is imputed to the believer?) Yes I do
(Are you saying one must be sacrificed first before they are justified?) Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. So yes I guess I am saying that. Actually I am rather quoting it, is there a problem?
@OriahLivingston Yes the blood covers you all your days, as long as you believe in His son. Now look! First when you except Christ, you are justified by His blood, We are saved by His merits not our own. But God gives with both hands, then with the holy Spirit sanctification begins. Purified at His coming, New Body ect...
@OriahLivingston we are saved and secured by Jesus' justifying grace. Romans 8:1, Romans 5:1,9, Galatians 311, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8‑9, Titus 3:4‑6, Romans 3:24, Romans 3:28, Romans 8:30, Galatians 2:16. 1 John 1:8-10 applies to every Christian until the Lord returns. Our only perfection is Jesus' righteousness credited to us (read 2 Cor. 5:21
@O Distinguish from root & fruit Root of Christian is faith in Christ, trusting in Christ everything comes from that. Fruit is always obedience, but obedience is not perfect, because we are not, pray 4 forgiveness of trespasses, many things we offend, not willing we all stumble
Righteousness means Justification; we are justified through the righteousness of Christ!
our personal righteousness of works will never meat the gauges of he law giver, with out grace we all would be lost
@game11221 Obedience isn't perfect no, but don't abuse the fact that you can repent therefore who cares how you live. In other words, don't give yourself an excuse to do something you know is not right and give yourself permission to screw up, b/c you can repent if you do. What kind of life is that? That's not what Christ taught anybody to do. I would feel a conflict inside. I'm not talking about things you do/works, I'm talking about having the influence of Christ in your life! Major difference
@OriahLivingston J3:16 - 3:21 God loved us so much He gave His Son, not to condemn, but to save. Whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life! Friend, this is the glory of the gospel! Jesus took our place The gift of God! This is true it is true for you, long as you don’t reject it!
@game11221 It's more than simply believing, Lucifer believes in God. It's having faith in Him, that is faith that He is a part of your everyday life and is with you guiding you in a righteous lifestyle. No need to take or add anything away from this statement. Anytime you stray on your own thoughts and sin and have to repent, you have lived that part of your life apart from Him and that faith in Him to keep you from doing it was not present then. What is so difficult about that to understand?
@Ori thought u may have been a JW because of your reference of the cross is a tree. So would U agree 2 Distinguish from root & fruit. Root of Christian is faith in Christ, trusting in Christ everything comes from that. Fruit is always obedience, but obedience is not perfect, because we are not, pray 4 forgiveness of trespasses, many things we offend, not willing we all stumble
Man always tries to do, adding works to try & justify themselves approved of Salvation
@O using ur reasoning any 1 w HS will never sin. Law of God requires perfection in every word,thought,motive,desire all ur days, none has this 2 offer. Without grace we all r done 4. Some r making Christ a example, not a savior, saying He had a sinful nature, so we can over come as He. But Christ didnt have a sinful nature - 2nd Adam perfect. But born of sinful flesh. We were born w a sinful nature - fall of Adam
perfection though Christ, reborn through Him from death 2 life
@game11221 Baptism is a rebirth in Christ and it is used to start a new path. Again another way of stating what I did above in the other 2 comments. Think about the new path you started on when you were baptized. It's tough no doubt, you take on the responsibility when you read in depth the power of the Holy Spirit and how you are held more accountable for things when you strive to let Christ live through you more and more.
@OriahL Thank God He was crucified! If not we all would be done 4 Thank god He took our place Thank God He loves so much He gave His only begotten Son Thank God He gave up His life so we could live Thank God
He was treated as I deserve so I could be treated as He deserves
He became what He was not, so I could become what I am not
All glory given to Christ, all authority is His! Thank God of mercy, As David was merciful that why God said,David after his own heart
@OriahLivingston Then it goes on to say, light has come into the world, but men love the darkness instead of the light because there deeds were evil. Evil hates the light and will not come to the light, for fear there deeds will be exposed. Looking after the faithful one, living unto Christ, desire is of the Lord, the desire of sin looses its sting! It is not the act of sin (OC-law) it's the sinful heart that acts (NC-law) whats in the heart the body will follow
@OriahLivingston Lel me ask you this, did righteousness happen outside of you, to say it is reckon. Or does righteousness happen inside of you.
Your answer will prove if you agree with what I have said, and also say, some of your conclusions are wrong. or it will prove what you are really believing, then shows contradiction of what you have said. A mixing if you will. you can only have it 1 way or the other, choose wisely
@game11221 (Lel me ask you this, did righteousness happen outside of you, to say it is reckon. Or does righteousness happen inside of you.)
What's your definition of happening outside and inside you? Then I can answer your question. If you mean by happens outside you that Christ comes from outside your own self and through Him you are righteous then I believe that. If you mean by happens inside you it's when Christ dwells inside you, then I believe that. Righteousness doesn't happen from you.
@OriahLivingston out side of you = What Christ did at the cross, it is reckon, it is complete. By his merits we are saved, it happened out side of us, my salvation is in Heaven thats why I can't loose it, as long as I believe in him I can not be lost.
If you think it happened inside you by your own merits Then that is saying your saved by works. Obedience to God is the fruit, but never the root.
@game11221 By complete if you mean atonement was completed, then no. If you want me to explain that, ask and you shall receive. But to outside of you? Yes as in He is the fruit.
@OriahLivingston (Yes as in He is the fruit.) No! Christ is the root. what He did was outside of any works you could do for salvation. obedience is the fruit,
Before I ask for your definition of the atonement, are you a sda? If so, I already know of this.
All scholars of worth agree the Greek word for justification means not make righteous as we are reformed, but accepted as righteous, declared righteous. That is the glory of the gospel! Go to sleep with the insurance of internal life. Even if I fall, I am accepted in Him Rom 4:8
When our Lord died as our representative, He took our place. In my place He stood, sealed me with His blood. Justified is the open door to the temple beautiful. It's more then forgiveness, it's acquittal, God says, I will count you as you never sinned. The imputation of the merits of Christ!
@OriahLivingston This new life is the outworking of grace and grace is the power of love because God IS love. Now I no longer hate my enemy but love him or her and try to do unto them what I would want done unto myself. Jesus said love is the FULFILLING of the law (all law). Jesus taught us not just to love our neighbour (OC) but to love our enemy (NC). BIG DIFFERENCE! He gave a NEW command to LOVE others as He loved us. How did He love us? He lay down His life for us when we were His enemy.
@brianhyde63 1 Corinthians 3:13- Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Malachi 3:2- But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Isaiah 1:25- And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin. Anything apart from His word goes...
@brianhyde63 continue through 1 Corinthians 3:14 and 15 talking about the foundation on what you do those works, the others were cross references. He is the foundation. The church was built upon Him, the rock, His word. Anything you do that is not confined through Him and His word is burned up.
@OriahLivingston Look friend, going back to the Law to prove a thing is not always a good thing to do. Paul said that if we wish to apply the law of Moses as pertaining to our righteousness before God, then we must apply all the Law and not just selected portions. The reason is because the Law of Moses contained a curse on the person who did not apply all the law. This does not mean that the law of Moses has no moral codes to consider.
@OriahLivingston All this is ALL of grace. Of course we need to educate ourselves in righteousness because the Spirit cannot convince us of something our conscience doesn't know and so ALL scripture is given to us to instruct us in righteousness (1 Tim 3:16) especially the NT which is the fullest revelation of spiritual living..Consider 1 Corinthians 13.There it shows us how love is expressed in spiritual laws or virtues that are principled and self-sacrificing.
@OriahLivingston What Christ ministers to us is expressed by Paul as the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:2).The Spirit that was in Christ will be in us if we depend on Him for it is sure that without Him we can do nothing He warned (Jn 15:5) and unless Christ Spirit is IN US we do not belong to Him (Rom 8:9).
@OriahLivingston And, btw, Christ added His own laws which only the Law Giver can do. Why did He redefine law He had already given? Revelation of truth and capacity to receive is progressive. We are not children under a schoolmaster as were the Jews, we are under Christ. The Law came through Moses but Grace and Truth through Christ. In peace.
@Marty And you sabbatarians certainly need correcting by the Jews because you are not observing the Sabbath according to the letter of the law. So a dose of humility on your part would not be amiss if by asking the Jews it resulted in you realising you are not keeping the Sabbath as God originally ordained it under the Law of Moses about WHICH THERE IS NOT A SINGLE WORD IN THE SCRIPTURE THAT MAKES A FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE IN THE WAY IT IS TO BE OBSERVED.
@Marty “You want us ask the Jews who didn't accept Christ and His sacrifice? Who had to correct them on their wrong keeping of the Sabbath?”
You are missing my point. The fact remains that if any people knew how to keep the Sabbath it was the Jews and they know the Law strictly according to the letter. They like SDAs consider they are still under the Law.
@Marty Acts 13:42 does not include all Gentiles. For those inside Jerusalem the Sabbath was a day that the early believers met with Paul and other Jews and Gentile converts in the synagogues where all were able to freely discuss their faith. This was a forum in which Paul was able to witness to unconverted Jews. Btw the Sabbath was also enshrined in state law so as a Jew you were required to keep it.
@Marty “Wouldn't Jesus clearly specify that seeing how everybody was doing it, especially Gentiles! Acts 13:42.”
Jesus said He was not sent to the Gentiles but to the house of Israel; His was a gospel to the Circumcision. Paul’s gospel was to the Uncircumcision. Until Christ died He upheld the Law which included the Sabbath. But He also offered all the sacrifices. Must we follow His example in these things too?
@Marty The Gentile converts were under no obligation to keep the sabbath even though they attended the synagogues. And they attend the synagogues for good reasons, at least until they were forcibly ejected by the Jews
@Marty “And there are many NT verses that state the apostles KEPT the Sabbath.”
Where does it say explicitly that they “KEPT the Sabbath” The fact that they went to synagogues on the sabbath is not an argument for its mandatory observance by Christians. On the contrary, the Jerusalem Council made no such conditions in its final decree that resulted from deciding what to do about the question of the Law the former Pharisees were pushing.
@Marty “Didn't they say to us to follow their example? 1 Corinthians 11:1.” Who is “they”? Here in Corinthians it is only Paul speaking; no other. And what “example” (“traditions” NET) is Paul referring to? You ASSUME too much, i.e. that it includes the Sabbath. You assume too much because you prove too little.
@Marty “Even after the resurrection they kept Sabbath. Why don't you?”
I don’t because I am not a Jew (the sabbath was a sign between God and the children of Israel) and there is no Temple today ot offer the necessary sacrifices, which, let me remind you, pointed to Christ anyway. Let me ask you why Paul shaved his head took vows and went to the temple and offered sacrifices AFTER the resurrection?
@Marty “What do you mean by the spirit of freedom?”
Christ sets us FREE from sin thro His sacrifice (justification – we are already counted perfect in Christ; Col 2:10 ). He also sets us free from the law of sin in our members (sanctification). The OC Law simply exposed sin but it was weak in that it could not set free from sin; hence it held us in a form of spiritual bondage. But the “law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets us FREE from the law of sin and death in both ways.
That's it, speak the truth!! Keep studying the Word for God has revealed the Truth to you
skankman2006 3 weeks ago
@game11221 Relate to me here, where is Christ? What is He doing there? That's my topic. Can you stay on it?
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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@OriahLivingston (What is He doing there? ) Well lets see what scripture says.
H10 we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Christ once & 4 all. This priest had offered 4 all time 1 sacrifice 4 sin. He sat down at the right hand of God. since that time He waits 4 His enemies 2 be made His footstool bc by 1 sacrifice He has made perfect forever.
Jesus said, also, I go to prepare a place for you.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 I'll be honest, I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Your responses don't even relate to what I am posting, so it's hard to get on any level of conversing with you.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston My question was, how is one saved? What must a man do to be saved?
game11221 1 month ago
@O since u say sda have it right, I am trying to figure out what u believe. That is really what I am trying to do
As to the atonement, some say it was completed at the cross, others say not complete. I know what u are saying & I am a exsda. So do u believe in the 1844 IJ doctrine?
Sins were placed on the lamb then lamb died, blood 2 mercy seat.
Sins of the world placed on Christ, He died. blood on mercy seat. not over & over like the HP once a yr.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 I said that? or you claim I did? (B) - answer
I like to study with people who use the Bible as their doctrinal base. That is me. No I don't know what any 1844 IJ doctrine is & I don't get myself wrapped up in founders of churches & hold them in high esteem. The minute you start preaching someones interpretation of the Bible, I am out of the room. So if you want to label me an SDA, go for it, but if you are saying I read Ellen White, you are grossly misguided & that's your def. of one.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@game11221 Blood on mercy seat. Here is the difference, you claim you know what I am saying. We have Christ blood covering us, but it does not cover a sin like the original lamb did until there was a sin. Why kill a lamb if there's no sin? Furthermore, that blood doesn't cover a sin & the sinner isn't cleansed until they are asked to be. Otherwise you have an unconfessed sin & that part of you is not purified with any blood. Do you read me? Having someone to slay alone does not sanctify someone.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Yes the blood keeps on cleansing us. thing is we are worse then ever expected, Are you saying, that even forgotten sin that's not repented for your a goner?
As to killing a lamb if no sin, there has always been sin
do u believe in imputed righteousness?
as 2 u being a sda, I did not say you were. You said u think they have it right, so I asked if u believe in the 1844 thing, you said no, ok. but you don't know if they are right you don't know there doctrine
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 The Bible talks about forgotten sin. Look it up. What is your point? Say you accept Christ as the one who died for you, yet you just live a sinful life & never pray or repent. What do you think is the outcome? You live a great life, you are kind etc. but you have sinned like all do & never once repented. What happened to Saul? Since you aren't saved by works or being nice, what happens to you? Do you not get it's more than simply believing & having faith? W/faith comes responsibility.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Never said not to repent, if you notice I said repent "YES"
I never said, grace is a license to sin.
when you speak of Christ in you, that is sanctification.
imputed righteousness is, the merits of Christ imputed to the believer. He did it outside of us it is reckon.
So what I am gathering is, you believe that your righteousness saves, by you reaching such a sanctification you will be excepted to God. So have you made it?
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Here's my point. Galatians 5:19 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Con'td-
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@Ori Gal5:18 is saying led by the spirit, not under law, not under bondage of trying to please God by minute observance of th law for salvation. G19 IS GIVEN FOR NON BELIEVERS or backsliders or both.
See, here we see, its not so much the act of sin it's the sinful heart that acts. Instead of reading one verse as to a proof text method read other verses for the context
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 1 Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston sexual sin not so good as to C6-9 Now read 6-10-11
God does save, & sanctify.
All you are proving is, if you except God, and continue in known sin, or unbeliever sins then thats a problem. there r many things we offend, you, me. all.
If you have faith in Christ you will before given. And sanctified!
But if you continue willfully in known sin, Like God said, we have freedom, but don't think it is ok to continue to sin (heart) I will destroy you.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Ephesians 5:5 - For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
After reading these, do you not deny even those who have the faith in Jesus do at least one of these in their lives more than once? or have an impulse? To say no is to say we are flawless. If these behaviors or sins take away your right to the kingdom, yes I believe there a certain place God wants you to be.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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@Ori Ephesians 5:5 meaning, a greedy man wants more things then he wants God, puts things in place of God.
they either do not believe, and that = not living in the Spirit
so my question, if works saves you as your implying, Knowing the law giver requires perfect in every word spoken, every motive,every desire, all your days, are you then perfect, as you imply this scrip. If what your implying is true then 1 slip your done for.
game11221 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston God wants to save the sinner! That why He sent His Son.
the believer lives in the Spirit.
works does not save!!!! our works are as dirty as rags. Saved by the merits of Christ as long as you believe, His righteousness is imputed to you. then your sanctified. You heart looses the desire of the things of this world, and you run to the light. See most think sin is a act, OT believer, But sin is a attitude, meaning we do nothing that is not in our heart.NC
game11221 1 month ago
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@OriahLivingston In a previous post you said "atoning is an on going process. There is always sin taking place." The first part of your statement is not biblical. Atonement is a completed act that took place nearly 2000 yrs ago. It is not ongling otherwise Jesus is still hanging on the Cross and we are still in our sins. It is its merits that are ongoing. Sin is indeed always taking place and thats why we the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1Jn 1)
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston The word "cleanses" in the Greek is present tense, (i.e. ongoing) The result of the atonement is that we are ALWAYS covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. God HAS reconciled the world to Himself through the Cross. Notice the past tense in Colossians 2:13-15:
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston
Colossians 2
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Oriah The Good News is that in Christ we have redemption and forgiveness:
Eph 1:7 NKJ
7 In Him we HAVE redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Col 1:13-14 NKJ
13 He HAS delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we HAVE redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
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OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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@game11221 I mean do you think God accepts you when you do these things? That's why the process of sanctification is a process to try and strive away from these things to be righteous as Christ did. I am reading from you you are accepted no matter what. Not all things/behaviors are acceptable to Christ, like you claim to state (This is my point).
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston So my question is this, how are we saved?
Do you believe in imputed righteousness?
Are we saved by Faith alone?
Are we saved by faith + works?
This is really what I am getting at.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 I already answered yes to imputed righteousness when you asked it earlier. There is no righteousness unless it comes from Christ working within you. That ties in with faith. But faith is believing that Christ is present with you in your life. It's present when you know in your heart He is there when things in life throw themselves at you and there is comfort and guidance to do the right thing.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@Oriaj Justification means not make righteous as we are reformed, but accepted as righteous, declared righteous. Glory of the gospel, insurance of internal life. Even if I fall, I am accepted in Him R:8
When our Lord died as our representative, He took our place. In my place He stood sealed me w His blood. Justified is the open door 2 the temple beautiful. More then forgiveness, it's acquittal, God says, I will count u as u never sinned. The imputation of the merits of Christ
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 That is important because sanctification is never perfected, it's an on going process. That's why you need someone atoning your sins with the blood that was given. This takes place today in the tabernacle not made with hands. That's where our Lord is! Standing in the presence of the Father for us. If He were not atoning, He would not be there and if He is not there, why hasn't He returned? He knows our history, why doesn't He have a date otherwise saying when He will return?
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston The atonement was finished at the cross, Meaning, He took my place, He was treated as I deserve so I can be treated as He deserves. He took upon Him the sin of the world. Sins of yesterday,today,& tomorrow, I am in Him by faith. his righteousness is imputed to the believer. He keeps on cleansing us. By His death He ratified a New Cov. repent YES! By repenting his blood cleanses us, the blood is there, the sacrifice is excepted. For all the believe.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 So 4 questions.
1) What takes place when you sin and it is covered? A word please. (b/c that's the definition of atonement) look it up.
2) What does God need to be in a tabernacle for if atonement is complete?
3) Where is He now?
4) What is He waiting for?
All answers btw I want a Biblical answer. Chapter and verse please. I don't want your opinion, that is speculation. 2 Peter 1:20 (no private interpretations please)
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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@OriahLivingston Again! This priest had offered 4 all time 1 sacrifice 4 sin. He sat down at the right hand of God. *since that time He waits 4 His enemies 2 be made His footstool bc by 1 sacrifice He has made perfect forever* Jesus said, also, I go to prepare a place for you.
Christ is the temple, tear down this temple & in 3 days I will rebuild it, He was talking about His Body.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 He hasn't returned b/c atoning is a process and not even the angels in Heaven know when He is done doing it. He decides Himself when He is done atoning.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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@game11221 This world is Lucifers. Read Revelation 11:15, this kingdom is not the Lord's yet lol read your bible man the seventh trumpet has not yet blown. He won't return until He leaves the holy of holies, which evidently goes shwoosh! right over your head. When He leaves (there) He returns. He isn't sitting around waiting for anything, that's what you don't get. There is a reason is He where He is and you don't understand why that is.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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Jew and Gentile, Olive tree & Lampstand, Old & New Testaments = Christians , You are the Witnesses ! John 8, 17-19 makes this clear as crystal ,But SATANS CHURCH has told you, You will be RAPTURED, "I sit a widow and shall see no sorrow". What did Jesus say ? I will bring you THRU the fire, I will refine you like silver is refined, Like fine gold ,I will make you WORTHY to be called by my NAME! He warns you to PUT on the WHOLE ARMOR,So that you will not seek to, "Save your LIFE, Lose your Soul"
DefendYourRights1 1 month ago
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@DefendYourRights1 He's trying to prepare you, for the Mark of the Beast ! Those who refuse the Mark,He shall caused to be KILLED, Here is theWisdom and Patience of the Saints, He who kills by the Sword, must be Killed BY the Sword {OF JESUS} He who takes into captivity {NWO} shall go into captivity {HELL}.
DefendYourRights1 1 month ago
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The adventist are WRONG too ! The still keep alot of the Catholic rituals .....Such as the wafer and wine, this is to be done on PASSOVER ONLY, Paul said; do you not have houses to eat in ? They also forbid eating MEAT....WRONG . Show your Preachers that SUNDAY WORSHIP is the "KEY TO THE PIT", If he refuses to listen, Dust off you feet and leave ! Find one that will listen, A Spirit filled Preacher will know this already, as he should know ,who the 2 witnesses are .
DefendYourRights1 1 month ago
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@DefendYourRights1 Remember that phrase the LITTLE FLOCK ! You understand now WHY it's called that , Because out of ALL the denomes ,claiming they're the TRUE gospel . I haven't found one YET ,but i'm searching ! I live in NC ,Anyone know a church like this ?
DefendYourRights1 1 month ago
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Constantine changed "TIMES", He claimed APOLLOS {PRINCE of the PIT} was worthy of worship ,He hated anything Jewish, and ordered the Catholic church ,to depart from all jewish practices. And he Changed the Catholic day of worship, to SUNDAY, This is why the Protestants are as lost as the Catholics, Sunday Worship is the" KEY "to the Bottomless Pit ! The 2 Witnesses are found in JOHN 8 :17-19, God warned how many times? If POSSIBLE, the beast would decieve even the ELECT, Who? THE ELECT !
DefendYourRights1 1 month ago
"What right have the Protestant churches to observe that day [Sunday]? None whatsoever... It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And has not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the council of Laodicea, A.D. 364 anathemized those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the seventh day under penalty of anathama." (Industrial American, Harlan Iowa; a published lecture by T. Enright, December 19, 1889)
TheHarmonicNote 1 month ago
"Question: Which is the Sabbath day?"
"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath."
"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?"
"Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." (The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, by Peter Geiermann, 50)
TheHarmonicNote 1 month ago
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brianhyde63 1 month ago
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brianhyde63 1 month ago
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@TheH Oh come on! Why do you swallow all that SDA propaganda? Do you believe RCC or the Bible? Only God can change times and laws. Look, the Law of Moses was a contract God made with Israel. They broke it and now it is obsolete. There is a new contract God made with spiritual Israel -- Christians. Hello! a NEW contract. Its called the NEW COVENANT.
The letter which kills has gone and is replaced by the spirit which is life. Why do you believe in a lie?.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
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@TheH Christ fulfilled ALL the OT Law and Prophets. One man did what Israel failed to do. So now its all over (2000 years ago!) and the Law has been replaced by Christ so our life is in Him not law The Law was a shadow of things to come.All the Law including Ten Commandments with its Sabbath are fulfilled in Christ and the spirit of all the Law is fulfilled in us by God Himself plus universal law.
Why do you disobey the gospel of Christ? Why are you promoting the Galatian heresy?
brianhyde63 1 month ago
For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son! By the merits of Christ we are looked upon. If we hold to him by faith we are held as spotless as His Son. The cross is the glory or the gospel.
Grace is a free gift. This is not cheap grace! We do have a part to play, to look after the faithful one! Ethics is gratitude! Religion is grace
game11221 1 month ago
To take the cross from the Christian is like blotting the sun out of the ski! We are saved by grace by faith! Our Lords blood covers us like a cloud over you all your days. Long as you keep your eye on Him you can not be lost. He died for me, He represented for me. I am accepted in the beloved by the grace of God
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 A cross is a pagan symbol, you can keep it and Tammuz the god it represents. He was hung on a tree, also a definition under the greek word Strauss. Just check out it in 1 Peter 2:24, examples that relate in: Galatians 3:13, Joshua 8:29 & 10:26, Deuteronomy 21:22-23. Shame on the Pharisees who murdered Him in this fashion, anyone who hung on a tree was under the curse of God.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
All scholars of worth agree the Greek word for justification means not make righteous as we are reformed, but accepted as righteous, declared righteous. That is the glory of the gospel! Go to sleep with the insurance of internal life. Even if I fall, I am accepted in Him Rom 4:8 He became what He was not, so I could become what I am not. It is not a matter of who you are, but who's you are, the devils or Christ's
game11221 1 month ago
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Legalism manifest it self 2 cling to any doctrine that is above its place. If anything supersedes Christ manifested in faith,hope & love anymore then that it becomes heretical it becomes legalistic. Obedience from the heart out of love of Christ doesnt imply legalism.but sin as a act does
Heb9 Christ entered ONCE into the Holiest of all with His own blood, having (past tense) obtained internal redemption. This was said before the turn of the 1st century not in 1844 but at the resurrection
game11221 1 month ago
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brianhyde63 1 month ago
Righteousness is ministered to the Christian through Christ's Spirit, not through tablets of stone or in a book.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
The logic is irrefutable:
1. The Ten commandments are the Old Covenant: Ex 34:27-28
2. The Old Covenant was abolished: Heb 8:13
3. The Ten Commandments are, therefore, abolished! (Superseded by a higher law)
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@brianhyde63 Really? the commandments contained in ordinances like in Ephesians 2:15? That were set beside the ark Deuteronomy 31:26 in the Book of the Law are the same as the ones put into the ark in 1 Kings 8:9? written by the finger of God Himself? So we can throw out Hebrews 13:8 and Malachi 3:6 cause God now lies? How about reading Revelation 22:14 saying those who keep them may have way to the tree of life and enter through the gate and called among the great there also in Matthew 5:19
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston The commandments referred to in the New Testament are the commandments of Christ. But of course if you interpret through Moses you will read them as the ten commandments. Christians are under law to Christ not Moses.
brhy67 1 month ago
@brhy67 I know.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@brianhyde63 John 14:15, 1 John 2:3-6, 1 John 3:24 just to name some are quoting that old covenant in the new testament. I highly suggest you read them if you haven't considering youtube wouldn't allow the space for me to quote them all here. They give light to the foundation of Mark 12:30,31 and what it means to truly show Christ is living through you and how your relationship is with Him and man/other people. Isn't that the new covenant? He is just re-quoting that which was already said.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston "He is just re-quoting that which was already said"
No, the Master wasn't just requoting what was already said, otherwise why do we have 800 or more new laws in the New Testament revealed to us through the Spirit? And read carefully in Matthew 5 where Christ repeatedly states "You have heard it said....BUT I SAY unto you" Brother, wake up,, this is our Lord speaking, redefining law He had given through Moses and magnifiying it - from the mere letter to the glorious spirit.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@brianhyde63 I don't get it? Okay how do you structure your life and define righteousness? Toward your God and your neighbor? Thank you.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Good question my brother. The answer is multi-faceted. First of all it is GOD'S work.Jeremiah 31:31-34 tells us that under the New Covenant GOD promies tol write His law (divine principles or universal law) on our heart and give us a heart to obey Him, i.e. new heart. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that salvation is a GIFT of grace and not of our works (it is the fruit of salvation). So good works are equally a GIFT.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@brianhyde63 Right my point was having that in your heart, He is living through you therefore you....? Fill in the blank as in living what I was expressing. That is my point about Ephesians 2:15, there is a difference between the commandments contained in ordinances and commandments contained in the covenant which are the word of God. His word doesn't change no matter what day it is. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the 10 commandments were done away with. However in Galatians works save you not
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston God's word does change because it is progressive revelation. That's why under the Old Covenant they were to offer sacrifices and keep the sabbath and thats why under the New Covenant we offer live by the merits of Christ's Sacrifice and keep the spiritual rest that is ours in Christ. U can fill in the blank by reading by adding the Lor'ds commandments found thro'out the NT "Love one another as I have loved you" is one such eg. And if u need a definition of love read 1 Cor 13.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
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@brianhyde63 Paul said that the Law could be used as a teaching instrument as long as we used itmlawfully,(1 Tim 1) which means that we cannot use the law as an instrument of righteousness. We are not under the law of Moses, but under the law of Christ
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Philemon 2:13 tells us that it is GOD who works in us both to will (desire) and to do (act) HIS good pleasure (His will).The heart is deceitful desperately wicked (Jer 17:9; Isa 1:6) so ONLY GOD knows what in the heart and needs to change in your life and mine for we certainly cannot know our heart and therefore our judgment is corrupted by our sinful nature. So we have to let God do the structuring in our lives
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Now that is a work we receive through faith alone. We must believe God and depend on His Spirit 100%. As we do so His Spirit will REVEAL to us what we need to change in our character, lifestyle, etc. moment by moment. As many as are LED by the Spirit they are the sons of God (Rom 8:14). As I submit to the leading of the Spirit He reveals my sin and where I am going wrong and tells me what I must do to set things right.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@brianhyde63 Lol I attend a Seventh Day Adventist church I know.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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@Or J14:15,21 If ye love me, keep my commandments.He that hath my commandments & keepeth them, he it is that loveth me& he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father & I will love him How can u, If ye, keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments & abide in his love Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command U Do what Jesus commands us, is not that enough? & shall we not be safe & sure of his love & the love of his Father
game11221 1 month ago
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@Oria Luke says he was taken up, "after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen." Acts 1:2. If Jesus gave commandments through the Holy Ghost, would they not be the commandments of God?Now hear Paul as to what are the commandments in the gospel: "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." I Cor. 14:37
game11221 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston
who also made us sufficient as ministers of the NEW COVENANT, not of the
letter but of the Spirit; for the letter KILLS, but the Spirit gives life.
3:7 But if the MINISTRY of death, written and engraved on STONES, WAS (past
tense) glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at
the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was
PASSING AWAY,
game11221 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston
If it's the same law it would have the same fruit! Witch is death!
game11221 1 month ago
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OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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@game11221 Yes, if you strive to be saved by them. Have you not read? If you have grace which is faith, you have God in you, which allows you to strive on the path He directs you on which was in His likeness. Therefore you are allowing Him to take control of your life and guide you in the right path through them. People don't understand faith/grace. It's not just simply believing & knowing He forgives sins, that gives one an excuse to sin b/c he can be forgiven. How is that lifestyle righteous?
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston As I put forth efforts to obey Him He comes in with His grace and empowers me to do what I could not do before. i know this from personal experience and it never ceases to amaze me. It has happened to me time and time again. He changes my attitude and behaviour toward Him and others (my neighbour). He replaces the old with the new.This change is what we call regeneration or new birth because it results in a new life.It is a life of victory.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@brianhyde63 Obey Him how? To keep it short, that is the only message I seek to ask. If works do you not save you, what in the bible does it say that if you claim you know, love and abide in your God and vice versa, what you should do? it all comes again down to His commandments. Which are broken up into two commandments (1-4) and (5-10) in Mark 12:20,31. Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston You said ( not just simply believing & knowing He forgives sins,that gives one an excuse to sin b/c he can be forgiven)
See only a legalist would think grace is a license to sin. Some think, you have to be good to be saved. If I am good, then God will love me. This is a pagan philosophy. God loves you even if you are not good, and if you believe it you will become good.
You don't have to be good to be saved but, you have to be saved to be good
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 If you knowingly do something you know is wrong and do it anyway, the Holy Spirit is not in you and there is no sacrifice left for sin (Hebrews 10:26), Christ has no part in you then lol what kind of a statement was that saying that doesn't matter aka I can be bad and that's okay? Talk to me again after you stop eating your bag of shrooms.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@Or See right there, u have taken what I have said & looked at it with a legalist eyes Problem when 1 takes the OT view as to sin is a act, were NT sin is a attitude, meaning we do nothing that is not in our heart
What my statement was saying is, some think if u don't reach perfection then
God wont love me & it's saying ur works will not save u. this does not mean ok have grace I can willfully sin, U mist the most important part (U have 2 be saved to be good
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 You obviously didn't understand my point. If you had Christ written in your heart, you wouldn't purposely do something sinful thinking & say oh no big deal I'll just repent and I can (therefore live however I want) b/c in short that is the attitude you are giving off.I mean think about it, I can kill someone b/c I have an urge every other day then repent and everything is okay? Are you then living a life God smiles upon? If you have faith you believe He takes control of your life. Duh
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston ok your a JW got it!
And it seems your salvation depends on your own righteousness.
Funny how every time I speak of grace, someone will always assume I am saying grace is a license to sin, when nothing could be further from the true. Only a legalist would see it that way. Read Romans all of it and read Gal.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Ya I actually don't follow Charles Taze Russell or the Watch Tower, furthermore I have a beard they wouldn't even allow me to sit in with them, but nice of you too put words in my mouth.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Legalism manifest to cling to any doctrine that is above its place. If anything supersedes Christ to Christ is manifested in faith, hope & love, anymore then that it becomes heretical, it becomes legalistic. Obedience from the heart out of love of Christ does not imply legalism. Bur salvation by works does.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 (Obedience from the heart out of love of Christ does not imply legalism. But salvation by works does.)
I know...why do you keep repeating yourself? lol
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@Oria (I can kill someone b/c I have an urge every other day then repent and everything is okay) WHAT!
Righteousness means Justification; we are justified through the righteousness of Christ! His Blood
We take on the righteousness of Christ! Not our own! When God looks at us (the true believer) He sees Jesus, His perfect, excepted sacrifice
Sanctification, when the Holy Spirit comes in and brings a life long process to convict us of our ignorance, and leads us to truth!
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Yes that's what I have been saying, did I say otherwise? All I said is that people with the Holy Spirit obey God's law (the commandments, it shows we abide in Him. I know you said otherwise (put words in my mouth and tried labeling me) a JW of all things...how insulting, but I forgive you.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston The flesh nature of man struggles with Salvation by Grace alone, so the flesh sets out "doing things" thereby justifying itself worthy of Salvation
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Yup
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston
P4
We have a part to play, not striving to have faith, but looking after the faithful one. Faith is Gods gift to all that hear the gospel, if they don't reject it! So salvation becomes a matter of grace. By grace you are saved through faith, not of our selves, it is a gift of God! Free Gift! Were sin abounds grace much more abounds. Religion is grace, ethics is gratitude!
game11221 1 month ago
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@Oria
Transformed life does not justify a man but comes as a result of being justified=sanctification. Cant merit justification or work it by grace. If it could then salvation wouldnt be a gift of God. Justification = faith alone Christ's merits imputed 2 believer
James is not teaching works that justify saving faith But faith that justifies work but not justification of atonement.Works do not vindicate Christ death
SDA IJ +or- Trent=RCC 1 saved by works other kept by works
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 (SDA IJ +or- Trent=RCC 1 saved by works other kept by works)
I have no clue what that means and again you are repeating yourself with the rest lol
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston What this means is, many claim they are Protestant but yet hold to justification as defined as set out by Trent RCC
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Good for them lol
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston P1 I give what the atonment means to me this will take a few comments. Atonment is complete, Christ atoned once 4 all , if not He would have to die over & over. He sat down. The great atonment has been made open the way into the MHP has been shown. If the atonment is not complete then salvation is of works not by faith. no way around it.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 The Bible says you're wrong.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@game11221 What do you think Christ is doing right now? read Hebrews chapter 9. He is high priest in the tabernacle not made by human hands. When He is done atoning "that" is when He will return. I don't know about you, but that makes sense to me, otherwise I don't know what the heck He is waiting for. John 3:13 - He's the only one there. Why else would He have ascended to Heaven? That gives light to Revelation 22:11 when he's "done atoning" let everyone be who they are, I've returned & am done.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston R3:23 none of us is perfect & worthy of God. Isaiah59:2 explains punishment 4 our sin what we deserve. R 6:23 bc God loves us , He has made a provision 4 sinners. God sent His Son, died on the cross, paying the debt we owed with His blood, Then we have John 3:16. J3:36) salvation comes by our believing in Him, not of our selves a gift R6:23 given to those who accept Jesus as their Savior. Ephesians 2:8-9 Our acceptance by God ,God’s grace given though Christ
game11221 1 month ago
@O ?did the Father except Christ's sacrifice? R we justified by the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to the believer?
I 2 the law die 2 the law until U die 2 the law 2 live 2 Christ as a method of salvation U R lost
Distinguish from root & fruit. Root of Christian is faith in Christ trusting in Christ everything comes from that Fruit is always obedience, but obedience is not perfect because we are not, pray 4 forgiveness, many things we offend, not willing we all stumble
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Good luck finding a church that will shed light on that, although I do believe the SDA get it, there's one church anyway. But then again they are the only church also that washes their feet for communion which it says you have to do in John chapter 13 and to emphasize in verse 8 He tells Peter those who don't do this have no part in Him. That's Him saying it, not me, so if you want to say legalist for that lol go ahead and call the Lord one. Have you not read?
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston (washes their feet) Has nothing to do with legalism.
Think a little deeper.
(SDA get it) better think again , investigative judgment is a damning doctrine.
(what the heck He is waiting for.) To make the world His foot stool, & I go to prepare a place for you, When the gospel has reached the whole world then the end will come,
If He came tomorrow are you saved? Have you past the test? Are you good enough? have you reached such a sanctification?
game11221 1 month ago
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OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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@game11221 Hey, you don't get it, that's great, but if your intent is to have the last word, by all means brethren, you have the podium. This world is owned by Lucifer. To be a friend of the world is enmity w/the Lord. If He is high priest & in a heavenly tabernacle, until He finishes like the earthly high priest did in Leviticus, He ain't taking His robes off & coming to collect His people dude. Sorry you don't get that. But it is written take it or don't. No verse says He's finished up there.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston So tell me, how is one saved? how is one justified?
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 We have already been through this. Here's the answer you really want. Okay look, and I'll break it up so you can carefully read it like 2nd grade. If you sin pause and then repent pause the high priest which is christ pause covers that sin with His blood pause if He is high priest and in the heavenly tabernacle pause is that not what He is doing? When you call on the Lord and say forgive me father, who is the one that cleanses your sins? Am I going to have to reword this again? lol
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Repent YES! Thats apart of sanctification. What Im saying, we can't atone for our sins, Christ has done it for us. He fulfilled it, It's complete. By excepting Him by faith alone, His blood covers us. We can not add to what He has already done. If atonement is not complete then He would have to die over & over. Blood of Christ keeps on cleansing us, as long as you believe.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 You still don't get my point man. Wow we really can't open the eyes of others can we?? This proves so much how the word of God really is truth in every aspect and that only He can make others see what they are too thick headed and stubborn to get. If atonement was complete...."there would be no need to repent"! Your sins would already be forgiven before you even committed them. Open your eyes!! How many times do I have to repeat myself?? When you repent, atoning is taking place! Geez!
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@game11221 A sacrifice was only part of the ritual that took place in the tabernacle not the whole frickin process. You seem to think the sacrifice is the only step needed in the process that takes place to clear a sin. It's really annoying trying to explain the difference.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston (sacrifice was only part of the ritual)
Yes it is finished. A new Cov is in place.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Christ is in the heavenly tabernacle. It's says so in Hebrew 9:11,24. He's High Priest which was the most Holy who cleansed the sinner with the blood of an innocent. Christ died & His blood became the sacrifice so when you sin, then repent, His blood covers that sin & you are purified. This process took place in the tabernacle. This is why He is in the heavenly one. You are not purified just b/c His blood was given as thee sacrifice. If you don't understand any of this I am at a loss.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston So how tell me, what must one do to be saved?
And do you believe that Christ righteousness is imputed to the believer?
Are you saying one must be sacrificed first before they are justified?
game11221 1 month ago
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@game11221
(So how tell me, what must one do to be saved?) You are swaying from the topic I am talking about. This question has nothing to do with atoning.
(And do you believe that Christ righteousness is imputed to the believer?) Yes I do
(Are you saying one must be sacrificed first before they are justified?) Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. So yes I guess I am saying that. Actually I am rather quoting it, is there a problem?
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Yes the blood covers you all your days, as long as you believe in His son. Now look! First when you except Christ, you are justified by His blood, We are saved by His merits not our own. But God gives with both hands, then with the holy Spirit sanctification begins. Purified at His coming, New Body ect...
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Yes but you don't get that atoning is an on going process. There is always sin taking place.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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@OriahLivingston we are saved and secured by Jesus' justifying grace. Romans 8:1, Romans 5:1,9, Galatians 311, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8‑9, Titus 3:4‑6, Romans 3:24, Romans 3:28, Romans 8:30, Galatians 2:16. 1 John 1:8-10 applies to every Christian until the Lord returns. Our only perfection is Jesus' righteousness credited to us (read 2 Cor. 5:21
game11221 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston
P5 Righteousness means Justification; we are justified through the righteousness of Christ
We take on the righteousness of Christ! Not our own! When God looks at us (the true believer) He sees Jesus, His perfect, excepted sacrifice!
Sanctification, when the Holy Spirit comes in and brings a life process to convict us of our ignorance, & leads us to truth!
Justification is the blood of Christ it’s the root, sanctification is the fruit
game11221 1 month ago
@O Distinguish from root & fruit Root of Christian is faith in Christ, trusting in Christ everything comes from that. Fruit is always obedience, but obedience is not perfect, because we are not, pray 4 forgiveness of trespasses, many things we offend, not willing we all stumble
Righteousness means Justification; we are justified through the righteousness of Christ!
our personal righteousness of works will never meat the gauges of he law giver, with out grace we all would be lost
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Obedience isn't perfect no, but don't abuse the fact that you can repent therefore who cares how you live. In other words, don't give yourself an excuse to do something you know is not right and give yourself permission to screw up, b/c you can repent if you do. What kind of life is that? That's not what Christ taught anybody to do. I would feel a conflict inside. I'm not talking about things you do/works, I'm talking about having the influence of Christ in your life! Major difference
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston J3:16 - 3:21 God loved us so much He gave His Son, not to condemn, but to save. Whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life! Friend, this is the glory of the gospel! Jesus took our place The gift of God! This is true it is true for you, long as you don’t reject it!
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 It's more than simply believing, Lucifer believes in God. It's having faith in Him, that is faith that He is a part of your everyday life and is with you guiding you in a righteous lifestyle. No need to take or add anything away from this statement. Anytime you stray on your own thoughts and sin and have to repent, you have lived that part of your life apart from Him and that faith in Him to keep you from doing it was not present then. What is so difficult about that to understand?
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@Ori thought u may have been a JW because of your reference of the cross is a tree. So would U agree 2 Distinguish from root & fruit. Root of Christian is faith in Christ, trusting in Christ everything comes from that. Fruit is always obedience, but obedience is not perfect, because we are not, pray 4 forgiveness of trespasses, many things we offend, not willing we all stumble
Man always tries to do, adding works to try & justify themselves approved of Salvation
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Works are by your own merit, I know. Anything apart from Christ is dead.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@O using ur reasoning any 1 w HS will never sin. Law of God requires perfection in every word,thought,motive,desire all ur days, none has this 2 offer. Without grace we all r done 4. Some r making Christ a example, not a savior, saying He had a sinful nature, so we can over come as He. But Christ didnt have a sinful nature - 2nd Adam perfect. But born of sinful flesh. We were born w a sinful nature - fall of Adam
perfection though Christ, reborn through Him from death 2 life
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 Baptism is a rebirth in Christ and it is used to start a new path. Again another way of stating what I did above in the other 2 comments. Think about the new path you started on when you were baptized. It's tough no doubt, you take on the responsibility when you read in depth the power of the Holy Spirit and how you are held more accountable for things when you strive to let Christ live through you more and more.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
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game11221 1 month ago
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@OriahL Thank God He was crucified! If not we all would be done 4 Thank god He took our place Thank God He loves so much He gave His only begotten Son Thank God He gave up His life so we could live Thank God
He was treated as I deserve so I could be treated as He deserves
He became what He was not, so I could become what I am not
All glory given to Christ, all authority is His! Thank God of mercy, As David was merciful that why God said,David after his own heart
game11221 1 month ago
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game11221 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Then it goes on to say, light has come into the world, but men love the darkness instead of the light because there deeds were evil. Evil hates the light and will not come to the light, for fear there deeds will be exposed. Looking after the faithful one, living unto Christ, desire is of the Lord, the desire of sin looses its sting! It is not the act of sin (OC-law) it's the sinful heart that acts (NC-law) whats in the heart the body will follow
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 That's what I keep trying to say, perhaps I didn't word it correctly.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Lel me ask you this, did righteousness happen outside of you, to say it is reckon. Or does righteousness happen inside of you.
Your answer will prove if you agree with what I have said, and also say, some of your conclusions are wrong. or it will prove what you are really believing, then shows contradiction of what you have said. A mixing if you will. you can only have it 1 way or the other, choose wisely
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 (Lel me ask you this, did righteousness happen outside of you, to say it is reckon. Or does righteousness happen inside of you.)
What's your definition of happening outside and inside you? Then I can answer your question. If you mean by happens outside you that Christ comes from outside your own self and through Him you are righteous then I believe that. If you mean by happens inside you it's when Christ dwells inside you, then I believe that. Righteousness doesn't happen from you.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston out side of you = What Christ did at the cross, it is reckon, it is complete. By his merits we are saved, it happened out side of us, my salvation is in Heaven thats why I can't loose it, as long as I believe in him I can not be lost.
If you think it happened inside you by your own merits Then that is saying your saved by works. Obedience to God is the fruit, but never the root.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 By complete if you mean atonement was completed, then no. If you want me to explain that, ask and you shall receive. But to outside of you? Yes as in He is the fruit.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston (Yes as in He is the fruit.) No! Christ is the root. what He did was outside of any works you could do for salvation. obedience is the fruit,
Before I ask for your definition of the atonement, are you a sda? If so, I already know of this.
game11221 1 month ago
@game11221 I misread your quote, I don't agree with the inside remark. Sorry
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@game11221 You know the sda definition of atonement? what is that? and I am not a member of any church currently.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston
P2
All scholars of worth agree the Greek word for justification means not make righteous as we are reformed, but accepted as righteous, declared righteous. That is the glory of the gospel! Go to sleep with the insurance of internal life. Even if I fall, I am accepted in Him Rom 4:8
game11221 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston
P3
When our Lord died as our representative, He took our place. In my place He stood, sealed me with His blood. Justified is the open door to the temple beautiful. It's more then forgiveness, it's acquittal, God says, I will count you as you never sinned. The imputation of the merits of Christ!
game11221 1 month ago
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game11221 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston This new life is the outworking of grace and grace is the power of love because God IS love. Now I no longer hate my enemy but love him or her and try to do unto them what I would want done unto myself. Jesus said love is the FULFILLING of the law (all law). Jesus taught us not just to love our neighbour (OC) but to love our enemy (NC). BIG DIFFERENCE! He gave a NEW command to LOVE others as He loved us. How did He love us? He lay down His life for us when we were His enemy.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@brianhyde63 1 Corinthians 3:13- Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Malachi 3:2- But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Isaiah 1:25- And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin. Anything apart from His word goes...
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@brianhyde63 continue through 1 Corinthians 3:14 and 15 talking about the foundation on what you do those works, the others were cross references. He is the foundation. The church was built upon Him, the rock, His word. Anything you do that is not confined through Him and His word is burned up.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston Look friend, going back to the Law to prove a thing is not always a good thing to do. Paul said that if we wish to apply the law of Moses as pertaining to our righteousness before God, then we must apply all the Law and not just selected portions. The reason is because the Law of Moses contained a curse on the person who did not apply all the law. This does not mean that the law of Moses has no moral codes to consider.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
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brianhyde63 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston All this is ALL of grace. Of course we need to educate ourselves in righteousness because the Spirit cannot convince us of something our conscience doesn't know and so ALL scripture is given to us to instruct us in righteousness (1 Tim 3:16) especially the NT which is the fullest revelation of spiritual living..Consider 1 Corinthians 13.There it shows us how love is expressed in spiritual laws or virtues that are principled and self-sacrificing.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston What Christ ministers to us is expressed by Paul as the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:2).The Spirit that was in Christ will be in us if we depend on Him for it is sure that without Him we can do nothing He warned (Jn 15:5) and unless Christ Spirit is IN US we do not belong to Him (Rom 8:9).
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@OriahLivingston And, btw, Christ added His own laws which only the Law Giver can do. Why did He redefine law He had already given? Revelation of truth and capacity to receive is progressive. We are not children under a schoolmaster as were the Jews, we are under Christ. The Law came through Moses but Grace and Truth through Christ. In peace.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@brianhyde63 I'm not talking about the law of Moses, but okay.
OriahLivingston 1 month ago
@Marty What is your authority for keeping the sabbath the way you Adventists do? You have no authority for tinkering with old covenant laws,
So what are you going to do about those sabbath sacrifices my friend since you stand condemned by the Law you purport to be keeping?
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Marty And you sabbatarians certainly need correcting by the Jews because you are not observing the Sabbath according to the letter of the law. So a dose of humility on your part would not be amiss if by asking the Jews it resulted in you realising you are not keeping the Sabbath as God originally ordained it under the Law of Moses about WHICH THERE IS NOT A SINGLE WORD IN THE SCRIPTURE THAT MAKES A FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE IN THE WAY IT IS TO BE OBSERVED.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Marty “You want us ask the Jews who didn't accept Christ and His sacrifice? Who had to correct them on their wrong keeping of the Sabbath?”
You are missing my point. The fact remains that if any people knew how to keep the Sabbath it was the Jews and they know the Law strictly according to the letter. They like SDAs consider they are still under the Law.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Marty “There is not a single VERSE in the Bible that tells us to keep Sunday, the first day of the week holy”
O, I agree absolutely! therefore I don’t have to keep Sunday holy if I don’t want to, do I? And, as a matter of fact, I don’t. :)
“and there isn't one that tell us NOT to keep the 7th day of the week holy.”
No, but, by the same token, there isn’t one that tells us we MUST either, is there?
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Marty Acts 13:42 does not include all Gentiles. For those inside Jerusalem the Sabbath was a day that the early believers met with Paul and other Jews and Gentile converts in the synagogues where all were able to freely discuss their faith. This was a forum in which Paul was able to witness to unconverted Jews. Btw the Sabbath was also enshrined in state law so as a Jew you were required to keep it.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Marty “Wouldn't Jesus clearly specify that seeing how everybody was doing it, especially Gentiles! Acts 13:42.”
Jesus said He was not sent to the Gentiles but to the house of Israel; His was a gospel to the Circumcision. Paul’s gospel was to the Uncircumcision. Until Christ died He upheld the Law which included the Sabbath. But He also offered all the sacrifices. Must we follow His example in these things too?
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Marty The Gentile converts were under no obligation to keep the sabbath even though they attended the synagogues. And they attend the synagogues for good reasons, at least until they were forcibly ejected by the Jews
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Marty “And there are many NT verses that state the apostles KEPT the Sabbath.”
Where does it say explicitly that they “KEPT the Sabbath” The fact that they went to synagogues on the sabbath is not an argument for its mandatory observance by Christians. On the contrary, the Jerusalem Council made no such conditions in its final decree that resulted from deciding what to do about the question of the Law the former Pharisees were pushing.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Marty “Didn't they say to us to follow their example? 1 Corinthians 11:1.” Who is “they”? Here in Corinthians it is only Paul speaking; no other. And what “example” (“traditions” NET) is Paul referring to? You ASSUME too much, i.e. that it includes the Sabbath. You assume too much because you prove too little.
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Marty “Even after the resurrection they kept Sabbath. Why don't you?”
I don’t because I am not a Jew (the sabbath was a sign between God and the children of Israel) and there is no Temple today ot offer the necessary sacrifices, which, let me remind you, pointed to Christ anyway. Let me ask you why Paul shaved his head took vows and went to the temple and offered sacrifices AFTER the resurrection?
brianhyde63 1 month ago
@Marty “What do you mean by the spirit of freedom?”
Christ sets us FREE from sin thro His sacrifice (justification – we are already counted perfect in Christ; Col 2:10 ). He also sets us free from the law of sin in our members (sanctification). The OC Law simply exposed sin but it was weak in that it could not set free from sin; hence it held us in a form of spiritual bondage. But the “law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets us FREE from the law of sin and death in both ways.
brianhyde63 1 month ago