While I agree that Gandalf> The Witch King. I am pretty sure at this point Sauron was putting a shit ton of his power into the Witch King. So this isn't that unbelievable.
@TheLurtzzzz thanks my audio was gone at exactly that point! otherwise it would be totally useless to say something we've all just heard, wouldnt it?.. -.-'
@LogSNES - So was I, I read the books and it was a standstill with Gandalf at the gates and The WK wanting to enter. When I bought the extended DVD I was like, 'That fucking never happened.'
And just a last note: Gandlaf cannot be assimiled to a demi-god in the tradtional signification of the word. He is closer to an ''angel'' or even a prophet. But Tolkien himself chose the word ''Angel'' to describe the nature of Olorin/Gandlaf.
1 Sauron(Fallen Valor) 2 Gandalf the White(Demi God) 3 Sauramon the White(Demi God) 4 Radagast the Brown(Demi God)5 Alatar the Blue (Demi God)6 Pallando the Blue(Demi God)7 Galadriel(Basically the daughter of the first elf and one of the Valor,Know as the Oldest and most powerful elf so Demi God herself)8 Elrond (King of Rivendell)9 Arywen(Princess of Rivendell)10 Celeborn (Husband of Galadriel)11 Witch King of Agmar (Head of the ring wraiths.12 Wraiths. The Valor are number one however.
@MsFeisty919 Well put i must say,The only one i have met to know more about it than me,And everything you said is absolutely correct.Lol nice way to school these people who think this was just made for fun.And actually thought the Witch King could best an Istari.Well put Msfeisty.
Ok first let me go head and break this down to you knowledge style.First off no way the Witch King of Agmar could ever beat Gandalf.Even if Gandalf was still Gandalf the Grey.Calimii is right to some degree but also wrong.Gandalf is now the Head of the Istari,The Five Demi Gods sent to earth from the Original Gods the Valor.Their are five Istari,Alatar the Blue,Pallando the Blue,Radagast the Brown,Sauraman the White,and Gandalf the White. They are Maiar,or lesser beings to the Valor.
@MsFeisty919 There is just no way possible,That a wraith could ever beat an Istari.And to correct you Calamii(not meaning any harm) Sauron is not an Istari,but one of the fallen Valor.The Valor placed the five Istari on earth but wiped their memories,so that they had to earn their power.The Valor created all that is.
The Most power beings in Lord of the Rings are as Follows:
@MsFeisty919 Well, in my original message I never told Sauron was an Istari; he is a Maia -like Gandalf/Olorin- and a powerful one and not a Vala as someone stated. Morgoth is the fallen Vala (very close to Satan in the symbolic).
Furhtermore, Tolkien description of Olorin powers and personality made a lot of ppl think he was in fact Manwe, the king of Valar. He is not; but his knowledge and wisdom makes him the cloest being apart from the Valar capable to match Sauron power.
can anyone please help me find or suggest where i could find the audio effect that is used for gandalf as he tries to defend himself in this scene. its that sort of thunder effect...but does anyone know where i could find the actual sound?
This scene is highly inacurate. Gandalf is the chief of the Istari, wisest of the Maiar and messenger of Manwë, King of Valar. The only being in Middle-Earth capable of defeating Gandalf at this point is Sauron, another great Maiar.
In the books, the scene is totally different. The WK enters, Gandlaf stand still and pretty much ignore his ''fire''sword. He is forced to ride back and save Faramir. The Wk flees before that.
@calimii i think even sauron could'nt defeat him. in valequenta, he begs Manwe to be excused from being sent to middle earth because he 'though he was not strong enough to defeat sauron'. If he thinks he cant do it, it must mean the Ainur thought he could. I may be wrong :P
@yomama629 Actually, everybody could give a better tribute than him. By following the wishes of Tolkien himself and not making a movie that is. And these movies can't be called great adaptations: they completely fail to capture Tolkiens world, characters and story, just to make an action movie.
@MasterBombadillo you may not understand this, but a film that matches the record of Oscars won is universally considered great. The Academy Award critics are no casual movie-goers who scream "Transformers was great so many 'splosions", they're professionals who know their shit. Peter Jackson took the greatest book series of all time and turned it into the greatest movie series of all time
@yomama629 We seem to have a misunderstanding here. I never said those were bad films, just that they aren't worthy to bear the name LOTR. Peter did many wonderful jobs, but he just ruined the story by re-writing everything: from the storyline to the characters. The movie, how great it may be, isn't worth to be called a great adaptation. They should've respected Tolkiens wishes by not turning LOTR into a movie, or at least give the power to stop unnecessary things to the Tolkiens.
WTFOCK Gandalf should have been able to fuck THe WIch KIng this is the first time seen this scene and the thruth is fucking hate it why hate no wonder they dint put in the movie Gandalf should have Nail him with a spell instead the put him like oh i fear the Nazgul
lol just a sword of numenor can afect ancient numenorien=Wking..not a elves sword...but Witchking do a BIG error when he leav...Wknig kill Gandalf NOW idiot...
When I saw this scene, I was a bit angry at the fact that Gandalf again lost his staff. I really had anticipated Gandlf to nail the Witch King to the ground. The fact that Gandalf had returned as a White Wizard, made his powers grow which really made made me hope his White Wizardry would have enabled him to defeat the Witch Kinh. But at least this deleted scene shows you what happend to his staff, since in the original movie, his staff mysteriously goes missing once he rides in to save Faramir.
What i dont understand is that the witch king destroys Gandalfs staff here but at the end of the movie he has his white staff back. Where did he get it back from? If he could get his staff back why couldn't Saruman get his black staff back.
PS- the way the witch king speaks makes me think i bet his breath stinks like ass.. just seems like it would... tee hee
@dagothversur4 Your right but I am actually referring to the very end of the movie when he is saying his goodbye's to the hobbits. He has his staff then to which i thought odd since it was destroyed long before that. I dunno... its not big deal just curious was all.
I totally agree, this scene sucked big time. It totally contradicts the books and the spirit of Tolkien. I would have loved to see a stand-off like in the books. Peter Jackson made Gandalf look like a weak old fool. It's sad that he added this scene.
@The4Experience I have to say, Gandalf in the movies (normal versions) seemed really weak. I always wanted to see him cast some bad ass spell, but all he really did was that light thing against the flying Nazgul. I haven't read the books completely but it would've been cool to see him shoot fireballs or something lol.
@Spacemonkeymojo well, he did do some magic in the first film against the balrog and you see him call lightning into his sword to stab the balrog in the heart in the second film but yeah they did dumb gandalf's magic down i think
@Spacemonkeymojo LOTR dates back to well before the invention of D&D or other RPG magic systems. So you can't really expect them to match them. Magic is LOTR is actually much more subtle as a whole and takes longer to do.
I hated this extra on the extended DVD. The fact that the whole scene does not follow the book at all isn't the worst of it. Gandalf's staff breaks? WTF? Horrible. Just awful. Jackson takes to many liberties here, trying to create something from whole cloth. Although there are scenes done perfectly elsewhere in the trilogy, they are balanced with others that would make any true fan extremely angry. This is one. He will do similar things when he makes The Hobbit. I hate it, and its true.
@bluesuncompanyman the fact that it dosent follow the book sucks but his staff breaking could be explained, would have been cool if they did the film like that, nazgul is more powerful that gandalf
@dmoneyxd the nazgul is much more weaker than gandalf, dont you remember he fought all the nine on weathertop. and he is/was a maiar like sauron was. and in the book they just stand and watch on each other, then the witch king rides back beacause of rohans charge. and in the book gandalf saves faramir instead of defeating the witch king. and he says that himself that he could prevented that so many died because of the witch king.
@bluesuncompanyman If you are so disgusted by this scene, shouldn't you be glad it was removed before the final cut? The extended DVD contain just that, cut scenes, and a few new ones. Any "TRUE" Lord of the Rings fan would, as I am, praising the high heavens that it turned out as well as it did, Jackson managed to pull off a bloody master piece and it should be recognized as such.
Beside. If you think Jackson takes liberties, imagine of someone like Lucas had directed.
@CondeDrareg Ella-Larana. That's very nice! Sounds very elvish! :D Anyway, I am not so sure if Sauron was capable of "taming" Shelob so easily as you say. He could have done it for hundreds of years, so that he wouldn't have to worry about Shelob eating his servants (not like he cared about them, but still, he needed them elsewhere, rather than being eaten by Shelob). Instead, he never did. He was definitely happy knowing she was around and killing trespassers, but he never tried to control her.
@CondeDrareg By giant spider of Cirith Ungol I presume you refer to Shelob. In The Return of the King it is stated that Sauron called Shelob "his cat", but she was never under his command, or any others for that matter. She only served herself.
@Sorvos yes i refer to Shelob, in spanish its called Ella-Laraña. She appears in the two towers not in the return of the king(acording to the books of corse). Sauron did not put sher under his command because no one could protect CIrith Ungol as she and for him was perfect having she there. Sauron could have easily made her his servant if he wanted to.
The witchking is a undead human under the control of Sauron. He wouldn't stand a chance against Gandalf. Good thing they deleted this scene...-_- This could have been filmed much better. In the books it was more like a western stare moment between gandalf and the witch king. And the witchking took off his cape...
@Hermoor The witch king have the part of sauron's power. Of course i put the hand for Gandalf the wisest maiar after all, but don't forget that gandalf himself was afraid of not being enough to defeat de witch king and i'm not talking about what he said in the movie... I think that in the book in Minas Tirith's gate king witch went after the rohirrim when his sword was in flames but did not arrive to use the spell, who knows what would have happened...only tolkien
@CondeDrareg Gandalf is a lesser god...if he was allowed to he could have challenged Sauron in a one vs one. Of course it would be hard, since Sauron was one of the most powerful Maiar. When he arrives to middle earth he isn't allowed to use power against power. He is just there to organize and help the free people...but he could have challenged Sauron. The witch king? A former king turned into a wraith undead by Sauron and given some of Saurons power. Not a chance Gandalf would have died..,.
@CondeDrareg You have to remember that Gandalf in Moria fought a Balrog for 8 nights and 8 days deep under earth. A balrog is a corrupted maiar, the witch king wouldn't be able to fight the balrog for 20 min. He is weak, and it's good they removed this scene, since it's SO unaccurate.
@Hermoor Olorin was really scared when the valar told him to go to Middle earth to confront Sauron even before he knew that his powers were going to be limited because he knew that even with his full power wouldn't be match for Sauron the most powerfull of the maiar by far, so in any case he could not confront Sauron in a one on one. The witch king its not weak, don't forget that destroyed Minas Tirith door with a spell.
@CondeDrareg Yeah maybe challeging sauron one on one is stretching it. But the witch king a mere mortal former king with some spells. Give me a break...no match for Gandalf. Look even Eowyn could kill him with the help of a elven blade...and a hobbit. Gandalf a 1000 year old lesser god...no chance...this scene was made out of ignorance, and only because it looked cool. Good thing it was removed...
@Hermoor The question is that gandalf himself said that the witch king was match for him, a really dangerous one. When gandalf fought the Balrog he had narya, the ring of fire, a huge help against the balrog. Eowyn and Merry defeated the witch king thanks to a huge luck and courage, but don't forget that merry stabbed the witch king from behind with his sword, not a common one when the nazgul was about killing eowyn after toying with her. And of course in any case, this scene is stupid
@CondeDrareg Yeah I just want to point out that the difference between a Maia (lesser god) and a human turned into a wraith (The witchking). IS HUGE, Aragorn fought off all the black riders alone with a torch, that including the witch king. And about Gandalfs ring, he fought the balrog as Gandalf the grey. Gandalf the white was much more powerful in magical strength. The witchking was nothing more than a human turned into a wraith...not much different from what Frodo was about to turn into.
@Hermoor the witch king was a powerfull magician not a hobbit. Fire and water are nazgul's weakness, aragorn knew it. Gandalf the white said that he could loose against witch's kings magic powers, not gandalf the grey. The witch king was a human, a really powerfull one, turned into wraith, with part of sauron's power in him and a really powerfull ring. For sure he would be no match for Olorin, but he seriosly worried Gandalf the white, and gandalf does not fear without reason.
@CondeDrareg When did Gandalf say he could loose against the witchking in the book? I don't recall it...also a really powerful human? Before he turned into a wraith he was nothing but a king. No magical powers at all...his ring and with the help of sauron he gained some magical powers. But so has every 1000 year old elf, I mean take Galadriel or Elrond against the witch king and the elfes would win too. Gandalf wasn't an elf or a human, he was a lesser GOD. Just like Sauron..just like the balrog
@CondeDrareg Sure Gandalf feared him, but not really him alone as much as his big army and the safety of the people that were around him at the time. The witchkings only power is fear, but it doesn't seem to work on lesser gods or elves. He was nothing special...not much different from someone like...Arwen maybe, or legolas. They were about the same age. The only difference being that he had his ring. But so did Gandalf...did he loose it when he turned into Gandalf the white?
@CondeDrareg Gandalf would have killed him easily...a match between Arwen and the witchking would be more interesting. Among elves Elrond, Galadriel and Glordfindel would kill him easily.
@Hermoor its said many times that the nazgul were powerfull ancient magicians and kings. Gandalf feared a direct confrontation with the witch king, not with his whole army, also he knew that it was his duty to confront him. Legolas and arwen can be harmed by normal weapons and there's not any profecy among them telling that no living man can kill them. It was thanks to Glorfindel that witch king was defeated in the fight against angmar,
@CondeDrareg Also this is written in the simarillion: 'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.' In the movie he sais it the other way around, but the movie is hardly canon...so much wrong in it.
@Hermoor that its not said in the silmarillion, Gandalf tells this to gimli in the two towers. And in the book its seen that he fears a direct confrontation with the witch king, he also knew that it was his duty. Galadriels power its in his beauty, arwen would be no match, and nothing probes the same from elrond. Glorfindel himself said that no living man would kill him. The witch king its not a weak corrupted man, he is sauron's right hand has sauron himself was once melkors one
@CondeDrareg I think you underestimate the powers of the good side. The witchking is not some uber powerful magician under saurons rule. He is about as strong as maybe...I can't recall any elf other than maybe arwen or legolas even though Legolas might be quite young, his age is unknown. Arwen was 3000 years old at the time of the ring wars. She was a formidable opponent...and would surely wield an elven blade like Merry. And she is no man...just like a 30 year old woman...like eowyn.-_-
@Hermoor its not enough an elven blade. Arwen was not a warrior like Eowyn, she had another kind of power. I do not underestimate the powers of the good side, i just say that people thinks that the witch king its a bug for gandalf the white and its not like that, he would be match for him and would give him trouble, of course would not defeat him
@CondeDrareg Galadriel was grandmother of Arwen, she was born before the first age. I'm not sure exactly how many years that is. But I would guess maybe 10 000 some years old. She had her own ring just like the witchking...and after the istari and Sauron she was highest in power. She would defeat him easily as well, Elrond, Galadriel, most likely arwen, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast....Tom Bombadil could all kick the witchkings ass like that. Also on galadriel, in the first age she was one of the
@CondeDrareg most powerful elves as well, and was a high ranking elven queen. I don't remember his name since I'm not too snowed in on this. But there were two great elves in the history of arda...I think it was Feonor? and Galadriel...they were the two strongest elves. Maybe I'm mixing this up now, but I think it was Feonor who challenged Morgoth himself in a duel and hurt him so badly he limped til the end of his days. Galadriel was next in line to him...witch king? Ha...
@CondeDrareg Where does Gandalf says he fears a direct confrontation with the Witch-King? It's rather the fear he spreads among the troops Gandalf fears. Like the book shows us: Gandalf didn't fear the confrontation: he didn't move a muscle at the broken gates, but he feared to save Faramir: the Nine were spreading fear, and without him, they would be lost.
Also, in Tolkien's letters, Tolkien says that Gandalf could appear in angelic form in urgent situations: when the other resistance failed.
@MasterBombadillo I see you two discussed alot, in relation with the video, yes Gandalf feared the witch king, its been as easy as reading the book again, i'm gonna put there what it ways in my spanish edition translated: Page 107 in my edition: Gandald: the enemy its too powerfull. Finally the one I fear has come. Pipin: it can't be... the dark lord? Denethor Laughed. Obiously they're refering to the witch king as its said in page 108 from my edition: Now, Barad-dûr's lord, the most powerfull
@CondeDrareg It's not that easy: the statements of Gandalf can be interpreted as follow: the Witch-King spread terror in the hearts of the defenders. The first quote has a context of the Witch-King against Gondors armies, which could flee in terror. Gandalf is more afraid of the Nine because they spread despair and thus weaken the defence, and only Gandalf could stop it, but not everywhere in Minas Tirith.
@CondeDrareg The second one can be explained in three ways: the one that I just stated, so in order of commanding the army; the fact Gandalf didn't flee from the Witch-King but guarded the wounded; and that he didn't want to show, or tell, what he's capable of. The Valar forbade him to do that, and Eru too. Only in the most urgent situations, like at the gates of Minas Tirith, where he didn't showed any fear, he could use his powers, like it's stated in the letters.
@MasterBombadillo Denethor asked to Gandalf if he retired when finding a more powerfull enemy refering to witch king, gandalf askes: perhaps but the time to test our powers hasn't come. Then he explained the profecy over the witch king, including himself as a man. They're not talking about witch king's army, in any cae its sauron's army, the witchking its the captain not the lord of the army, they're talking about witch king. Gandalf did not show preocupation about the nine, only about the one
@CondeDrareg Gandalf showed doubt about that prophecy, and also: it was a prophecy, not some waterproof defence of the Witch-King against every man. Also, I'm talking about the greatest power of the Nine: fear, and that's still the greatest power of the Witch-King: to make the defenders despair so their fighting power is reduced. Also, Gandalf said the Witch-King didn't show himself on the front, so the greatest peril wasn't there yet, and the wounded needed more help.
@MasterBombadillo Gandalf showed no doubt on the prophecy: he said that he destiny diserves his fall in the hands of something that he ignores but for sure not a man. I know that its a prophecy not a protection, we've seen what happened when eowyns and merrys swords stabbed into him. And of course fear its the witchking's greatest power but his spells could also be a problem for gandalf, as gandalf himself recognized the withking as a great sorcerer and retired against him before the siege.
@CondeDrareg He said something about it: IF it was true. The "if" is crucial. And if the Witch-King attacked Gandalf, then the future (from the point of view of Glorfindel) would be changed, and the prophecy wouldn't have been made. Thus it can be argued the prophecy did foresee the fact there wasn't a confrontation. Not to mention the fact you don't have to kill the Witch-King to defeat him: he was defeated at Angmar and the Fords of Bruinen.
@MasterBombadillo His army was defeated not him exactly. The future can't change if there's a prophecy, we can't know what would have happened in the confrontation.
@CondeDrareg The most powerful servants under Morgoth were Sauron and Gothmog. I don't know about the dragons but I doubt it, since the balrogs were maias. You even know what a maia is? Sauron was an maia, Saruman was an maia and Gandalf. The balrog was an maia too....the witch king was a former king. Who was given one of the rings of power...and got corrupted and turned into a wraith by Sauron. He fled from an elf, he was defeated by Elrond's spells according to yourself. And Sauron made the
@Hermoor of course i know what a Maia is. You even have readed the silmarilion? do you know what made the valar's army get back after the balrogs were defeated like ants and the ones surviving ran away? The dragons and not the balrogs. Glorfindel was an elf and defeated a maiar, a balrog, you understimate too much the power of the sons of iluvatar, and the witch king was a really powerfull one as man, much more powerfull as undead.
@Hermoor of course, turin, a man, will kill Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorath, Beren, a man, made the most incredibly thing in all arda's history, for sure there's a HUGE difference between a man and an elf
@CondeDrareg nine flee at the tower in the first book all alone. And finally he was defeated by a hobbit and a woman...you can't seriously suggest that Gandalf the white...the upgrade...better than the grey that defeated the BALROG. Would fear this human?
@CondeDrareg Obviously the only reason you suggest something so foolish is because you think he is cool...well sorry but coolness doesn't equal strength. If that would be the case then Gollum would kick everyones ass but he doesn't, he is the weakest creature alive....
@Hermoor think he is cool? i don't remember that, he is a simply character not too much sifisticated please tell me were i said that he is cool, because i aported facts but you haven't yet
@CondeDrareg Lol...I havne't got anything more to say...HE WAS defeated by a hobbit and a human girl...and you say he can defeat a maia who has slain a balrog. Give me a BREAK!
@Hermoor sry i redacted id bad, i meant: you did not pay attention in the film in his fight with eowyn and merry or you did not read that part in the book.
@CondeDrareg We can argue, like I said, that Gandalf could rob the Witch-King from his shape instead of killing him. After all, the Witch-King was defeated at the Fords of Bruinen, and couldn't get rid of Gandalf the Grey when confronting him at Weathertop, while it was night and had the other Nazgul, thus when the Nine are at the maximum of their power.
@MasterBombadillo Its not really known how this happened but its obious that they did not confront each other since Gandalf told Denethor: the time to coonfront our powers hasn't come yet. CHristopher and not Tolkien himsels constated that there were 7 balrogs, we don't know how many dragons. Primary Servant means not the most powerfull. Probabbly for Sauron was ok having the Balrog commanding Moriathe same having The giant spider( i don't know his name in english) in cirith ungol.
@CondeDrareg It was because of Gandalf no battle occurred: Tolkien stated in letter 156 that Gandalf organized the human resistance, and it was so powerful there was no battle between the two. Also, from information in the same paragraph of that letter, we can see Gandalf could act like an "angel", being able to use a very large part of his power as Olorin. And he was sent (especially as the White Wizard) as the enemy of Sauron, for that purpose (again, stated in letter 156).
@CondeDrareg About the Balrogs: Christopher stated "In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed."
This note was written by Tolkien himself in a later stage of his writings than in the beginning. In TBOLT, the earliest version, there are hundreds of Balrogs, and they were weaker in power than we see in the published Silmarillion (the huge numbers of death indicates this).
@CondeDrareg For the Balrog of Moria: he didn't exactly command things: letter 210 states that the Balrog never speaks or make vocal sounds, or laughs or sneers.
Also, why don't bind the Balrog to you as you're own servant, in order to make him much more useful to you? If so, he could've planned to use the Balrog in an attack on Lothlorien (he made his plans before the death of the Balrog), and the Elven realm would've fallen almost certainly. He would've done it with Smaug according to Gandalf.
@MasterBombadillo at the contrary, a Balrog its not enough to take down Celeborn, Galadriel and his army and power, but if the Balrog leaves Moria for sure Moria would be taken back by the free people,probabbly dwarvens and that would be rally bad. The Balrog does not speak but its not hard to notice that the goblins follow him as leader in Moria since thanks to him they conquered it.
@CondeDrareg A Balrog, in combination with the armies of Moria and the rest of the Misty Mountains, in combination with forces from Dol Guldur, would've done very much damage to Lothlorien, if not destroyed it. The Balrog would've been Saurons most powerful servant by far, and the attack on Lorien I speak of would've been during the War of the Ring, the Free Peoples wouldn't dare to take over Moria while their homes were under heavy attack. Also, Balins expedition failed, and so would others...
@MasterBombadillo In the Misty Mountains there aren't many goblins remaining, the major part died in the battle of five armies. The army from Dol Guldur its also weak since Sauron was defeated there. Without the Balrog Moria would be easy to take and would be an important fortress and mining place so free people would dare to take it. The Dwarves can create an army powerfull enough to take Moria, his number doesn't matter since they use really good armors, weapons and have a huge endurance.
@CondeDrareg "Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains", which is said long before the War of the Ring started. Besides that fact, the Orcs took back Moria and killed the Dwarves of Balin, which indicates great numbers due to the fact the Bridge of Khazad-Dum is a most solid piece of defence, and Dwarves are much better warriors then Orcs. Not to mention they send at least hundred Orcs in order to kill the Fellowship and did a raid on Mirkwood: those mountains are stronger then you think.
@CondeDrareg Also, history teaches us that numbers do count: WW II is won by this fact by the allies, who stood against the best war-technology in the world while fighting Germany. Quality doesn't always prevails over quantity. Also, it were Orcs that retook Moria, indicating the same thing I said, in fact: you made my argument stronger.
Dwarves can't create an army powerful enough to take Moria as long Erebor is under siege. Taking Moria is the task of the House of Durin, who are in Erebor.
@CondeDrareg ... without the help of a Balrog. The Dwarves aren't many in numbers, and their most important home is Erebor.
Also, Galadriel nor Celeborn were depicted great warriors like Fingolfin, Feanor, Ecthelion or Turgon, but their power lies in wisdom. The Balrogs that were killed in the First Age were killed by great Noldor warriors, who had seen the Undying Lands (and Celeborn didn't). They could only counter the enormous amount of terror the Balrog spread among the Elven ranks.
@MasterBombadillo The Balrog does not put as terror in the people as the Witch King does. Galadriel and Celeborn could easily stop him while another would take him down, its not necessary having battle spells to fight a powerfull monster. Take a look at what Luthien did to Sauron, the werewolves, Carcharoth, or Melkor himself, and she had no battle powers. Celeborn was born before the first age as Galadriel, seen Valinor or not he is really powerfull, So the armys of Moria are not enough
@CondeDrareg Barlogs are called Demons of Might, and Demons of Terror in the Silmarillion. And LOTR (and the Silmarillion) stated they spread terror and might. Also, the Elves (and Dwarves) do fear the Balrog much more than a Nazgul: Legolas shot one of the Nine at Anduin, but couldn't do anything in front of a Balrog, he even wailed.
Luthien was half Maia, she had more power over those things than normal Elves. Also, her voice seemed to be the most powerful besides that of Bombadil.
@CondeDrareg Like I said: all the Balrogs in the First Age were killed by powerful warriors. In battle, no-one else used the same tactics. Also, this attack comes from Dol Guldur and Moria, thus dividing the Elves strength.
And for you're Dwarven-argument: less Dwarves in Erebor means less resistance, and so it could be good for Sauron to let them take Moria, maybe even better then that they don't take it. But like I said, they don't have time to retake it during the War of the Ring.
@Hermoor Both are more wise than they have real battle power. Against a Balrog, they wouldn't fare well. Also, they don't seem to have the fighting skills of the Noldor Lords who killed the Balrogs in the First Age. In terms of fighting skills, they wouldn't stand long against Glorfindel, Fingolfin, Feanor, Turgon or Ecthelion.
@MasterBombadillo But they could always sap then with their lightening bolts...Gandalf wasn't a good fighter either. He killed the balrog with magic...
@Hermoor We can't see Elves use lightning bolts. They can use magic, but certainly not in the extent the Ainur did. Also, magic in Tolkien's world is certainly not only shooting lightning from ones fingers, but most of the time, it's more mental: Saruman's voice, the Rings to control people, talking to nature, etc. And powerful in Tolkien's world does certainly not means "good in battle". Galadriel's power doesn't lies in direct battle, but rather in deception, more like the Girdle of Melian.
@MasterBombadillo If valar uses his full power for sure it would have bad consequences or he would have used them against the balrog, he prefered to die before using them and he did not know that he would be taken to life again. In his white Gandalf form( not Olorin, i'm not talking about that), the witch king its match for him. In Minas Tirith he was the hope remaining, of course he did not feel fear, if he does who would stand then? All I claim is that witch king its mach for gandalf
@CondeDrareg No...the witch king fled from an elf...he got defeated by a hobbit and a human lady...he fled from gandalf the GREY at the umm tower in the first book. Gandalf...defeated a balrog...and he was a lesser god. You can't even compare the two. What gandalf "fears" in the witch king is his servants and what he does to the morale of gondors troops. He doesn't fear him in a 1 on 1 situation...you can't just look at one scentence from the book you have to take everhting into account.
@Hermoor At the siege of Gondor the witch-king its at his full power. If you've seen/readed the figth between the witch king and eowyn you probabbly understand why he lost. I take everything into acount but Gandalf's word its the most important fact and he stated that he fled from the witch king, not from a bucnh of orcs. Of course he also fears what witch king can do to his armys. You can't compare the balrog's powers and the witchking's ones, they're completly different, witch king uses
@Hermoor powerfull spells and puts fear and despair in the heart. The balrog uses fire spells and its a great melee fighter, of course Gandalf was protected against the fire pretty well. We don't even know what is capable of the witch king, we would need to see what would have happened when the witch king imbolbed his sword into fire to throw a dark spell on gandalf.
@CondeDrareg Gandalf was a Maia, but was forbidden to show his true power by the Valar. When the Grey Pilgrim "died", he was sent back by Eru, and in great emergency, he could act like an "angel" (taken from letter 156). He stated he was the second most dangerous being in Middle-Earth.
Also, he defeated the Balrog, and you say without using his full potential. The Balrog was the most powerful fighter under Morgoth, and Sauron couldn't control him, and you say the Witch-King was more powerful?
@MasterBombadillo when I said that? i said that they're too diferent, also the Balrog wasn't the strongest in Morgoth's army, Dragons were superior and of course Sauron himself even without the ring its much more superior. He had his own army, since there were only 7 Balrgos that acted as Morgoth's personal guard, this does not mean that while Morgoth was prisioner the Balrogs did not listen Sauron in Angband since Morgoth himself told him to organize everything while he was prisioner
@CondeDrareg The Balrogs didn't exactly act as Morgoths personal guard. They fought in battles, while Morgoth stayed home. And because there were only seven Balrogs in fact proves Tolkien's intention to make them very powerful.
Also, if Sauron could control the Balrog, why didn't he do it? The Balrog is much more powerful than the Nine, yet the Nine are the most powerful servants of Sauron. And the Dragon-discussion is a long one, but the Balrogs were Morgoth primary servants.
@Hermoor sauron did not choose the remaining balrog as his right hand, or any werewolf or orc, he chosed the witch king of angmar for any reason, and for any reason he put in his right hand an important amount of his own power and teached him his dark spells, so the witch king its not a corrupted man with some magic. His magic powers are enough to confront gandalf the white, probably not defeating him but giving him serious problems for sure. As i said, no match for Olorin, match for gandalf
@CondeDrareg Yeah he could challenge Gandalf, but not defeat him...he is not a god you know...Gandalf defeated in his weak form as the grey a balrog of morgoth. The balrogs were almost at the same rank as Sauron under Morgoth...the witch king a mere human could never do that and absolutely not Gandalf the white. If you instead of looking at the movies and judging from them read the books. You will understand this...
@Hermoor oh the books, of course. What you tried to say, acording to the books: Galadriel was Finarfin's daughter, Feanor was his uncle, and there were alot of great elves in arda history: Feanor, Thingol, Luthien, Fingolfin, FIngon, Gil-galad, Felagund, Cuthalien... Galadriel never stressed among this names, she became important when she became the ruler of lorien, her power, as i said, was her beuty and wisdom, not her fighting skills or destructive spells. As i said, Gandalf had Narya
@CondeDrareg As a young elf she competed in duels with magic and she was undefeatable. One of the greatest magic users among elves. You can't deny this...I have read somewhere that the greatest among elves ever were Fingolfin of course...and Galadriel. You can't compare the "strength" of the witchking to Galadriels power. She was student under one of the Valas for goods sake, and she was an elf. The witchking was a mere human WRAITH...and he was scared away by aragorn with a torch. >_>
@Hermoor a huge help against a fire Maiar as a Balrog is. A balrog its not close in power to Sauron, there were 7 Balrogs, none of them had higer or equal to Sauron, not even Gothmog. If you take a book to the books instead of judging for the films, the first thing you will discover its that a Balrog its not as huge and incredible as Jackson made him look. The witch king, a human, had higher rank in saurons army than a balrog, still sacerd in moria because of the War of Wrath
@CondeDrareg The Balrogs never fought under Sauron...if Sauron had any control over the remaining of THE remaining Balrog he would surely bring him up from the depths and make him fight for him. But you are right...Gothmog the other hand could probably be somewhat equal to Sauron.
@CondeDrareg But the fact remains, there were many who could kick the witchking ass including...Eowyn HAHA...Gandalf and many others would kill him like that.
@Hermoor Wow, Eowyn was no match for the witch king alone, she won by luck with merrys help. Gandalf could win but not easily. And the Balrogs, since Sauron was Melkor's right hand, were under his direct control in aussence of Melkor. Gothmog was defeated by an elf, his power its not even close to Sauron's one. Galadriels magic powers never were for the battle, never, his power was beauty, wisdom, capability to create beauty things, persuasion, etc, not power in a direct battle against another
@CondeDrareg Yeah...a hobbit killed the witch king...you think that is better than Eowyn killing him? A hobbit and a human girl killed him...wow yeah right Elrond and Galadriel wouldn't stand a chance. And Gandalf would have a hard time taking him down...yeah right...Yeah Gothmog was defeated by Fingolfin...umm isn't Galadriel in the same generation or not so far from Fingolfin? But who cares that an elf defeated Gothmog, this proves my point...Galadriel being one of the most powerful elves
@CondeDrareg ever should easily be able to deal with the wtichking, also Isildur killed Sauron...WOW...Elf kills Gotmog, man kills Sauron and hobbit kills the witchking. And you say Elrond and Gandalf would have a hard time with the witchking...lol...you fail...
@CondeDrareg And Galadriel's power wasn't beauty, in the first age she was one of the most powerful magic users among elves. Only Feonor was a higher or more powerful elf than herself...in the third age she is very powerful. If she had taken the ring from Frodo she would become as strong as Sauron..she would overthrow him. Except for Gandalf and maybe Saruman/Radagast she is the most powerful being on the good side of all the beings in middle earth...umm yeh maybe below Bombadil too.
@Hermoor Have you ever read Tolkien's letters? If you did, think about letter 246: Tolkien stated only Gandalf (and the Istari when you read his arguments), could challenge Sauron alone if he had the Ring, and the outcome would be uncertain. Galadriel, or Elrond, couldn't challenge the power of Mordor, even with the Ring in their possession, unless they had an army, and an empire as back-up, while facing Sauron.
@Hermoor I think you overestimate Galadriel. She may be powerful, but Tolkien stated she couldn't defeat Sauron, even if she was in possession of the Ring. She would need an empire and an army to attack him, but face-to-face, she would be inferior to the Maia. Same goes for Elrond.
Also, Elrond is close in power to Galadriel. The same letter (246) stated: "so were the other guardians..., especially Elrond". True, Galadriel wasn't among the others, but the words include a powerful Elrond.
@MasterBombadillo I'm not saying Elrond is weaker, but not as proficient in magic as Galadriel. I think you oversestimate Sauron in the shape he is in. Without the ring he isn't very strong. He put half of his soul into that ring. There is a reason he stays in mordor throughout the ring wars, looking over his chess board with the one eye. Without the ring he is too weak...with the ring as stated by both Galadriel and Gandalf. They would become very powerful...instead of a dark lord you would
@Hermoor Like I said, the things I said aren't just opinion, but are stated by Tolkien himself. It's true Sauron is weaker than with the Ring, but he build his power up for 3000 years. Stated by Galadriel, but you seem to forget the nature of the Ring. Letter 246 again, says that the Ring put thoughts of supreme power in minds. It stated even with the Ring, Gandalf the White would be somewhat equal in strength as Sauron: the balance being delicate between them.
@Hermoor Do you forget the statement of Denethor that easily? Great lords don't fight, only triumph over other. Only in great need they would fight, like at the Siege of Barad-Dur.
Also, he didn't need to come out: his armies were powerful enough to do the job, so he wouldn't need to risk his body again, and search for the Ring to recover his full strength.
@Hermoor Sauron wasn't an Eye. The Eye was just a metaphor used to describe his will and attention. The same metaphor is used for Morgoth, who certainly wasn't an eye, and Second Age Sauron, who most certainly didn't had an eye-shape either.
@MasterBombadillo So there was no eye on the top of Barad dur? I admit I could have been clouded on this subject due to the films. I always got the impression there was an eye and that Sauron used being in a material form to look over his chessboard and search for the ring. If he was as powerful as you say he is WITHOUT the ring. Then why didn't he lead the assault on Gondor?
@Hermoor There isn't even prove a Maia could take a shape like that: all the shapes we see are shapes from living organisms, not some parts of it.
Like I said, he didn't come out because great lords don't fight the battles themselves, only in great need. Morgoth didn't came out his fortress either: he just ruled over his minions, but was more powerful than any other being, save for the Valar and Eru. They didn't need to come out: their armies were big enough, and they had reliable commanders.
@MasterBombadillo have a queen...Sauron with the ring would be impossible for Galadriel to defeat but without the ring in his current shape. He isn't very powerful...
@MasterBombadillo and could possibly be killed by both Gandalf and Galadriel...Galadriel would defeat him with the ring and Gandalf would defeat him if he was allowed to. But he wasn't allowed to go power against power. He was just there to guide the children of illuvatar. Sauron with the ring was weak...you can't deny this.
@Hermoor Sauron without the Ring was still the most powerful entity in Middle-Earth. Gandalf the White stated it, giving the second one to himself. And of course it's a joke what PJ did to the scene between Gandalf and the Witch-King. Gandalf was far too powerful, and could use his full potential (Olorin's potential) if needed, but still wasn't a match for Sauron.
@MasterBombadillo Maybe you are right...after all it was stated somewhere that Sauron was more powerful in the third age than Morgoth was at the end of the first age. Gandalf would probably have a hard time defeating him even with the ring...btw don't you think Tom was more powerful than Gandalf? Gandalf could surely have been mistaken when he said that he was the second strongest in middle earth after Sauron. One has to remember the fight between him and the balrog was a tie really...
@Hermoor No, it was stated Sauron at the height of his power, by the end of the Second Age and thus with the Ring, was more powerful than Morgoth at the end of the First. Third Age Sauron was weaker. And indeed, Gandalf would've a very hard time defeating Sauron even with the Ring, but like I said, even then the outcome would be unclear: the Ring's true allegiance was to Sauron.
Gandalfs fight with the Balrog was as the Grey Wizard, the statement came from the White.
@MasterBombadillo Somehow I doubt Tom would be defeated easily by Sauron...having been in middle earth BEFORE Melkor entered. He is surely some kind of uber powerful servant under eru and probably stronger than Sauron...since he was able to make the ring dissapear O.o
@Hermoor For Bombadil, he is the greatest mystery in LOTR: his power and true identity are unknown. Therefore, we can't know how strong he really is. It's stated by some he could be the Vala Aule, and then he would be the most powerful entity in Middle-Earth. But even Gandalf doesn't know his identity, and he doesn't participate in the war, so it could be argued he wouldn't be counted in the "ranking".
@Hermoor Sauron would certainly have a difficult job against Bombadil. We can't say Bombadil didn't have power over the Ring: it's stated in the Council of Elrond that the Ring didn't have power over him. This could be easily explained by the carefree nature of Bombadil, not longing for any kind of power, and just fully accepts himself the way he is. The disappearance of the Ring could be explained simply too: just a magic trick. It's not because something is more powerful, you can't affect it.
@Hermoor Also, the Ring's strongest protection was the corruption. He couldn't corrupt Bombadil, so Bombadil was able to do things with it nobody else would even consider. He would even forget about the Ring eventually, because he didn't find it important at all. He just lives in the "now", and is fully happy.
This discussion isn't infused with much canonical facts like the previous one, so I hope we can have a long argument.
@MasterBombadillo Yeah agree completely, but I doubt he is the vala Aule. He was certainly not proficient in crafting things, I imagine Aule would at least be a bit interested in the ring. Tom couldn't care less, he has a very powerful voice and could with his songs command both wraith and old tree. He must be higher in power than a maia since he was in middle earth even before the valas! This would make him stronger than Sauron and any other being in middle earth at the time.
@Hermoor I agree with you on Bombadil is probably a nature spirit. It's the closest thing I can come up with to the character of Bombadil. However, showing interest isn't the same as longing for power and possession, threats Aule didn't have. Bombadil did show interest in the Ring, but didn't care much about it. For him, it was a fun story.
I don't agree with you he would be more powerful than the Valar: that's too close to the Iluvatar-theory. Also, the Ainur were still made before Bombadil.
@MasterBombadillo The valas were made before Tom? Then how could he be in varda before the valas entered it? He must surely have been created by Eru at the time of the creation of the world. I always thought that the world was created by Eru...then the ainur filled it with their song and created trees etc. He couldn't have been created by the valas since they can't create life...only empty puppets that they can control. So he must have been created by eru BEFORE the valas entered it. This means
@Hermoor The Ainur were created first: Melkor went already to the Void before Arda was placed in there (Varda is a Valar, Arda is the Earth, I was confused when you switched those terms). The Earth was created after the Music of the Ainur, and then the Valar and Maiar were sent down and made the world. I agree with you he couldn't be a Vala or Maia. But there aren't other Ainur on Arda than the Maiar and the Valar. Maybe Eru created other creatures, but it's not an Ainur.
@MasterBombadillo he really couldn't have been an vala or a maia since if he was he would be entering the world with them. But he was in there before they entered...I don't know if you could call him a nature spirit...since I'm not sure exactly what that is. But he can't be a vala or a maia...I would suggest that since he is singing...that he is one of the ainur but still not one of the valas or the maias. Probably the embodiment the spirit or the tool eru used to create the world in the first
@MasterBombadillo place...the valas just filled it. I think it could be possible that he was the right hand of Eru in creating the world. A spirit that has never left it...who was there before the valas filled it with trees...who saw the first rain drop fall etc...
@MasterBombadillo I can't come to any other conclusion than that he is a vala...maybe a unknown vala...I never really understood what was the point in naming the valas the ainur. Maybe the ainur were not only the valas but something else as well. Maybe Tom belong to this group of something else...it could be Maia, Vala and something else Oo. The valas seem to be dealing with elves and huamans and hunting suns whatnot...but before they entered varda the world was already there and so was bombadil
@Hermoor There aren't any unknown Valar, and of the Valar, Aulë comes closest to the being of Bombadil. However, I just see too much differences between Aulë and Bombadil, and other problems like he didn't care about the war or the Ring - but that could be explained by the same reason the Istari weren't allowed to show their true powers because the Free Peoples had to do it on their own, but with guidance. Maybe Aule was there as last resort, but I doubt it.
@MasterBombadillo But if you explain what a nature spirit is and who created them for what purpose maybe I could change my mind...I don't think I have read about nature spirits before in the silmarillion or any other work. Also something very important...is that he doesn't seem to care. He doesn't care about the ring or anything materialistic. This is a very godlike virtue...even melkor and many of the valas cared about materialistic things...Aule made things...tom only cared about the world and
@Hermoor It's true Tolkien didn't write about nature spirits, but it's easy to get the idea from his sources: old mythologies. There are many examples of nature spirits in those stories.
A nature spirit, to me, is a being who's source is something natural (this doesn't necessarily means Eru didn't create him: he could've made intentionally the possibility of nature spirits), and can be associated with that thing. I would call Bombadil an earth spirit, and Goldberry a water spirit.
Thank you , Sauron , now we've more chances to win the war.
Stormistery 1 week ago
i thing that gandalf is too much weak in film against book
VvLoneGreyWolf 4 weeks ago
While I agree that Gandalf> The Witch King. I am pretty sure at this point Sauron was putting a shit ton of his power into the Witch King. So this isn't that unbelievable.
CouncilMaster2 1 month ago
Gandalf: Go back to the abyss! Fall into nothingness that awaits you and your master!
Witch King: Do you not know death when you see it, old man? This is my hour!
TheLurtzzzz 1 month ago
@TheLurtzzzz thanks my audio was gone at exactly that point! otherwise it would be totally useless to say something we've all just heard, wouldnt it?.. -.-'
BigMisterApple 1 month ago
@BigMisterApple hmmmm,WHAT???????
TheLurtzzzz 1 month ago
@BigMisterApple Ouuu i now!!! Witch-King: "You have failed the world of man will fall rohhhuuuuuuuuull....but he didn't kill him!!!!!!!!!!!
TheLurtzzzz 1 month ago
Glad this was left out of the movie
LogSNES 1 month ago
@LogSNES - So was I, I read the books and it was a standstill with Gandalf at the gates and The WK wanting to enter. When I bought the extended DVD I was like, 'That fucking never happened.'
Juliz 1 month ago
@Juliz I was like that throughout at least 50% of the movie.
MasterBombadillo 1 month ago in playlist LOTR
this is pathetic
r4p3d1nm0u7h 1 month ago
you know...you CAN kill him first and then find out what that noise was about...
AliTubelog 2 months ago
Gandalf=lvl 85 Arcane mage!
punisher1045 2 months ago
...A wizard did it. end of argument
warjunky444 2 months ago
And just a last note: Gandlaf cannot be assimiled to a demi-god in the tradtional signification of the word. He is closer to an ''angel'' or even a prophet. But Tolkien himself chose the word ''Angel'' to describe the nature of Olorin/Gandlaf.
calimii 2 months ago
1 Sauron(Fallen Valor) 2 Gandalf the White(Demi God) 3 Sauramon the White(Demi God) 4 Radagast the Brown(Demi God)5 Alatar the Blue (Demi God)6 Pallando the Blue(Demi God)7 Galadriel(Basically the daughter of the first elf and one of the Valor,Know as the Oldest and most powerful elf so Demi God herself)8 Elrond (King of Rivendell)9 Arywen(Princess of Rivendell)10 Celeborn (Husband of Galadriel)11 Witch King of Agmar (Head of the ring wraiths.12 Wraiths. The Valor are number one however.
MsFeisty919 3 months ago
@MsFeisty919 Well put i must say,The only one i have met to know more about it than me,And everything you said is absolutely correct.Lol nice way to school these people who think this was just made for fun.And actually thought the Witch King could best an Istari.Well put Msfeisty.
TheAbsol123 3 months ago
@MsFeisty919 koolstorybro
MrFifa56 3 months ago
Ok first let me go head and break this down to you knowledge style.First off no way the Witch King of Agmar could ever beat Gandalf.Even if Gandalf was still Gandalf the Grey.Calimii is right to some degree but also wrong.Gandalf is now the Head of the Istari,The Five Demi Gods sent to earth from the Original Gods the Valor.Their are five Istari,Alatar the Blue,Pallando the Blue,Radagast the Brown,Sauraman the White,and Gandalf the White. They are Maiar,or lesser beings to the Valor.
MsFeisty919 3 months ago
@MsFeisty919 There is just no way possible,That a wraith could ever beat an Istari.And to correct you Calamii(not meaning any harm) Sauron is not an Istari,but one of the fallen Valor.The Valor placed the five Istari on earth but wiped their memories,so that they had to earn their power.The Valor created all that is.
The Most power beings in Lord of the Rings are as Follows:
MsFeisty919 3 months ago
@MsFeisty919 Well, in my original message I never told Sauron was an Istari; he is a Maia -like Gandalf/Olorin- and a powerful one and not a Vala as someone stated. Morgoth is the fallen Vala (very close to Satan in the symbolic).
Furhtermore, Tolkien description of Olorin powers and personality made a lot of ppl think he was in fact Manwe, the king of Valar. He is not; but his knowledge and wisdom makes him the cloest being apart from the Valar capable to match Sauron power.
calimii 2 months ago
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MsFeisty919 3 months ago
Comment removed
MsFeisty919 3 months ago
pensava que Gandalf era mais poderoso
daniel91629 3 months ago
and then the girl kills him. the movies fuckin suck.
xxbluejay21 4 months ago
can anyone please help me find or suggest where i could find the audio effect that is used for gandalf as he tries to defend himself in this scene. its that sort of thunder effect...but does anyone know where i could find the actual sound?
peni14 4 months ago
This scene is highly inacurate. Gandalf is the chief of the Istari, wisest of the Maiar and messenger of Manwë, King of Valar. The only being in Middle-Earth capable of defeating Gandalf at this point is Sauron, another great Maiar.
In the books, the scene is totally different. The WK enters, Gandlaf stand still and pretty much ignore his ''fire''sword. He is forced to ride back and save Faramir. The Wk flees before that.
calimii 4 months ago 29
@calimii 100 percent true I love the Silmarillion!
chrisman223 4 months ago
@calimii i think even sauron could'nt defeat him. in valequenta, he begs Manwe to be excused from being sent to middle earth because he 'though he was not strong enough to defeat sauron'. If he thinks he cant do it, it must mean the Ainur thought he could. I may be wrong :P
peni14 4 months ago
@calimii I sometimes can't stand the arrogance of people who make books into movies. This is a good example, indeed.
MR0806 3 months ago
@MR0806 how dare you insult the visionary Peter Jackson? No one could have done a greater tribute to LOTR than he has
yomama629 1 month ago
@yomama629 Actually, everybody could give a better tribute than him. By following the wishes of Tolkien himself and not making a movie that is. And these movies can't be called great adaptations: they completely fail to capture Tolkiens world, characters and story, just to make an action movie.
MasterBombadillo 1 month ago in playlist LOTR
@MasterBombadillo you may not understand this, but a film that matches the record of Oscars won is universally considered great. The Academy Award critics are no casual movie-goers who scream "Transformers was great so many 'splosions", they're professionals who know their shit. Peter Jackson took the greatest book series of all time and turned it into the greatest movie series of all time
yomama629 1 month ago
@yomama629 We seem to have a misunderstanding here. I never said those were bad films, just that they aren't worthy to bear the name LOTR. Peter did many wonderful jobs, but he just ruined the story by re-writing everything: from the storyline to the characters. The movie, how great it may be, isn't worth to be called a great adaptation. They should've respected Tolkiens wishes by not turning LOTR into a movie, or at least give the power to stop unnecessary things to the Tolkiens.
MasterBombadillo 1 month ago
WTFOCK Gandalf should have been able to fuck THe WIch KIng this is the first time seen this scene and the thruth is fucking hate it why hate no wonder they dint put in the movie Gandalf should have Nail him with a spell instead the put him like oh i fear the Nazgul
Dragonslayerassasin1 5 months ago
I don't remeber the Witch King destorying Gandalfs staff in the book...
crumbumxr 5 months ago
I am the CockKing of Angmar !
Alexdogg92 6 months ago
so Wk > gandalf easy
32120Dns 6 months ago
just kill him and mordor win ....cuz gandalf never call eagle vs nazgul in the final scene ...maybe elrond do it...
32120Dns 6 months ago
lol just a sword of numenor can afect ancient numenorien=Wking..not a elves sword...but Witchking do a BIG error when he leav...Wknig kill Gandalf NOW idiot...
32120Dns 6 months ago
When I saw this scene, I was a bit angry at the fact that Gandalf again lost his staff. I really had anticipated Gandlf to nail the Witch King to the ground. The fact that Gandalf had returned as a White Wizard, made his powers grow which really made made me hope his White Wizardry would have enabled him to defeat the Witch Kinh. But at least this deleted scene shows you what happend to his staff, since in the original movie, his staff mysteriously goes missing once he rides in to save Faramir.
MrPiano90 7 months ago
What i dont understand is that the witch king destroys Gandalfs staff here but at the end of the movie he has his white staff back. Where did he get it back from? If he could get his staff back why couldn't Saruman get his black staff back.
PS- the way the witch king speaks makes me think i bet his breath stinks like ass.. just seems like it would... tee hee
shatomea 7 months ago
@shatomea watch film again. He has got no staff later only sword.
dagothversur4 6 months ago
@dagothversur4 Your right but I am actually referring to the very end of the movie when he is saying his goodbye's to the hobbits. He has his staff then to which i thought odd since it was destroyed long before that. I dunno... its not big deal just curious was all.
shatomea 6 months ago
@bluesuncompanyman
I totally agree, this scene sucked big time. It totally contradicts the books and the spirit of Tolkien. I would have loved to see a stand-off like in the books. Peter Jackson made Gandalf look like a weak old fool. It's sad that he added this scene.
The4Experience 8 months ago
@The4Experience I have to say, Gandalf in the movies (normal versions) seemed really weak. I always wanted to see him cast some bad ass spell, but all he really did was that light thing against the flying Nazgul. I haven't read the books completely but it would've been cool to see him shoot fireballs or something lol.
Spacemonkeymojo 8 months ago 16
@Spacemonkeymojo well, he did do some magic in the first film against the balrog and you see him call lightning into his sword to stab the balrog in the heart in the second film but yeah they did dumb gandalf's magic down i think
ironwolg 5 months ago
@Spacemonkeymojo a lot like harry potter. all hype, no magic.
elmestengo 3 months ago
@Spacemonkeymojo he's also a great sword fighter, but his real strength is not in fighting, but in his wisdom
yomama629 1 month ago
@Spacemonkeymojo LOTR dates back to well before the invention of D&D or other RPG magic systems. So you can't really expect them to match them. Magic is LOTR is actually much more subtle as a whole and takes longer to do.
Chrisfs59 1 month ago
I hated this extra on the extended DVD. The fact that the whole scene does not follow the book at all isn't the worst of it. Gandalf's staff breaks? WTF? Horrible. Just awful. Jackson takes to many liberties here, trying to create something from whole cloth. Although there are scenes done perfectly elsewhere in the trilogy, they are balanced with others that would make any true fan extremely angry. This is one. He will do similar things when he makes The Hobbit. I hate it, and its true.
bluesuncompanyman 10 months ago
@bluesuncompanyman the fact that it dosent follow the book sucks but his staff breaking could be explained, would have been cool if they did the film like that, nazgul is more powerful that gandalf
dmoneyxd 9 months ago
@dmoneyxd the nazgul is much more weaker than gandalf, dont you remember he fought all the nine on weathertop. and he is/was a maiar like sauron was. and in the book they just stand and watch on each other, then the witch king rides back beacause of rohans charge. and in the book gandalf saves faramir instead of defeating the witch king. and he says that himself that he could prevented that so many died because of the witch king.
Kimern97 8 months ago
@bluesuncompanyman If you are so disgusted by this scene, shouldn't you be glad it was removed before the final cut? The extended DVD contain just that, cut scenes, and a few new ones. Any "TRUE" Lord of the Rings fan would, as I am, praising the high heavens that it turned out as well as it did, Jackson managed to pull off a bloody master piece and it should be recognized as such.
Beside. If you think Jackson takes liberties, imagine of someone like Lucas had directed.
thoughtfoxdk 9 months ago
Comment removed
bluesuncompanyman 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg Ella-Larana. That's very nice! Sounds very elvish! :D Anyway, I am not so sure if Sauron was capable of "taming" Shelob so easily as you say. He could have done it for hundreds of years, so that he wouldn't have to worry about Shelob eating his servants (not like he cared about them, but still, he needed them elsewhere, rather than being eaten by Shelob). Instead, he never did. He was definitely happy knowing she was around and killing trespassers, but he never tried to control her.
Sorvos 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg By giant spider of Cirith Ungol I presume you refer to Shelob. In The Return of the King it is stated that Sauron called Shelob "his cat", but she was never under his command, or any others for that matter. She only served herself.
Sorvos 10 months ago
@Sorvos yes i refer to Shelob, in spanish its called Ella-Laraña. She appears in the two towers not in the return of the king(acording to the books of corse). Sauron did not put sher under his command because no one could protect CIrith Ungol as she and for him was perfect having she there. Sauron could have easily made her his servant if he wanted to.
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
The witchking is a undead human under the control of Sauron. He wouldn't stand a chance against Gandalf. Good thing they deleted this scene...-_- This could have been filmed much better. In the books it was more like a western stare moment between gandalf and the witch king. And the witchking took off his cape...
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor The witch king have the part of sauron's power. Of course i put the hand for Gandalf the wisest maiar after all, but don't forget that gandalf himself was afraid of not being enough to defeat de witch king and i'm not talking about what he said in the movie... I think that in the book in Minas Tirith's gate king witch went after the rohirrim when his sword was in flames but did not arrive to use the spell, who knows what would have happened...only tolkien
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg Gandalf is a lesser god...if he was allowed to he could have challenged Sauron in a one vs one. Of course it would be hard, since Sauron was one of the most powerful Maiar. When he arrives to middle earth he isn't allowed to use power against power. He is just there to organize and help the free people...but he could have challenged Sauron. The witch king? A former king turned into a wraith undead by Sauron and given some of Saurons power. Not a chance Gandalf would have died..,.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg You have to remember that Gandalf in Moria fought a Balrog for 8 nights and 8 days deep under earth. A balrog is a corrupted maiar, the witch king wouldn't be able to fight the balrog for 20 min. He is weak, and it's good they removed this scene, since it's SO unaccurate.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor Olorin was really scared when the valar told him to go to Middle earth to confront Sauron even before he knew that his powers were going to be limited because he knew that even with his full power wouldn't be match for Sauron the most powerfull of the maiar by far, so in any case he could not confront Sauron in a one on one. The witch king its not weak, don't forget that destroyed Minas Tirith door with a spell.
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg Yeah maybe challeging sauron one on one is stretching it. But the witch king a mere mortal former king with some spells. Give me a break...no match for Gandalf. Look even Eowyn could kill him with the help of a elven blade...and a hobbit. Gandalf a 1000 year old lesser god...no chance...this scene was made out of ignorance, and only because it looked cool. Good thing it was removed...
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor The question is that gandalf himself said that the witch king was match for him, a really dangerous one. When gandalf fought the Balrog he had narya, the ring of fire, a huge help against the balrog. Eowyn and Merry defeated the witch king thanks to a huge luck and courage, but don't forget that merry stabbed the witch king from behind with his sword, not a common one when the nazgul was about killing eowyn after toying with her. And of course in any case, this scene is stupid
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg Yeah I just want to point out that the difference between a Maia (lesser god) and a human turned into a wraith (The witchking). IS HUGE, Aragorn fought off all the black riders alone with a torch, that including the witch king. And about Gandalfs ring, he fought the balrog as Gandalf the grey. Gandalf the white was much more powerful in magical strength. The witchking was nothing more than a human turned into a wraith...not much different from what Frodo was about to turn into.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor the witch king was a powerfull magician not a hobbit. Fire and water are nazgul's weakness, aragorn knew it. Gandalf the white said that he could loose against witch's kings magic powers, not gandalf the grey. The witch king was a human, a really powerfull one, turned into wraith, with part of sauron's power in him and a really powerfull ring. For sure he would be no match for Olorin, but he seriosly worried Gandalf the white, and gandalf does not fear without reason.
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg When did Gandalf say he could loose against the witchking in the book? I don't recall it...also a really powerful human? Before he turned into a wraith he was nothing but a king. No magical powers at all...his ring and with the help of sauron he gained some magical powers. But so has every 1000 year old elf, I mean take Galadriel or Elrond against the witch king and the elfes would win too. Gandalf wasn't an elf or a human, he was a lesser GOD. Just like Sauron..just like the balrog
Hermoor 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg Sure Gandalf feared him, but not really him alone as much as his big army and the safety of the people that were around him at the time. The witchkings only power is fear, but it doesn't seem to work on lesser gods or elves. He was nothing special...not much different from someone like...Arwen maybe, or legolas. They were about the same age. The only difference being that he had his ring. But so did Gandalf...did he loose it when he turned into Gandalf the white?
Hermoor 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg Gandalf would have killed him easily...a match between Arwen and the witchking would be more interesting. Among elves Elrond, Galadriel and Glordfindel would kill him easily.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor its said many times that the nazgul were powerfull ancient magicians and kings. Gandalf feared a direct confrontation with the witch king, not with his whole army, also he knew that it was his duty to confront him. Legolas and arwen can be harmed by normal weapons and there's not any profecy among them telling that no living man can kill them. It was thanks to Glorfindel that witch king was defeated in the fight against angmar,
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg Also this is written in the simarillion: 'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.' In the movie he sais it the other way around, but the movie is hardly canon...so much wrong in it.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor that its not said in the silmarillion, Gandalf tells this to gimli in the two towers. And in the book its seen that he fears a direct confrontation with the witch king, he also knew that it was his duty. Galadriels power its in his beauty, arwen would be no match, and nothing probes the same from elrond. Glorfindel himself said that no living man would kill him. The witch king its not a weak corrupted man, he is sauron's right hand has sauron himself was once melkors one
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg I think you underestimate the powers of the good side. The witchking is not some uber powerful magician under saurons rule. He is about as strong as maybe...I can't recall any elf other than maybe arwen or legolas even though Legolas might be quite young, his age is unknown. Arwen was 3000 years old at the time of the ring wars. She was a formidable opponent...and would surely wield an elven blade like Merry. And she is no man...just like a 30 year old woman...like eowyn.-_-
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor its not enough an elven blade. Arwen was not a warrior like Eowyn, she had another kind of power. I do not underestimate the powers of the good side, i just say that people thinks that the witch king its a bug for gandalf the white and its not like that, he would be match for him and would give him trouble, of course would not defeat him
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg Galadriel was grandmother of Arwen, she was born before the first age. I'm not sure exactly how many years that is. But I would guess maybe 10 000 some years old. She had her own ring just like the witchking...and after the istari and Sauron she was highest in power. She would defeat him easily as well, Elrond, Galadriel, most likely arwen, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast....Tom Bombadil could all kick the witchkings ass like that. Also on galadriel, in the first age she was one of the
Hermoor 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg most powerful elves as well, and was a high ranking elven queen. I don't remember his name since I'm not too snowed in on this. But there were two great elves in the history of arda...I think it was Feonor? and Galadriel...they were the two strongest elves. Maybe I'm mixing this up now, but I think it was Feonor who challenged Morgoth himself in a duel and hurt him so badly he limped til the end of his days. Galadriel was next in line to him...witch king? Ha...
Hermoor 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg Where does Gandalf says he fears a direct confrontation with the Witch-King? It's rather the fear he spreads among the troops Gandalf fears. Like the book shows us: Gandalf didn't fear the confrontation: he didn't move a muscle at the broken gates, but he feared to save Faramir: the Nine were spreading fear, and without him, they would be lost.
Also, in Tolkien's letters, Tolkien says that Gandalf could appear in angelic form in urgent situations: when the other resistance failed.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo I see you two discussed alot, in relation with the video, yes Gandalf feared the witch king, its been as easy as reading the book again, i'm gonna put there what it ways in my spanish edition translated: Page 107 in my edition: Gandald: the enemy its too powerfull. Finally the one I fear has come. Pipin: it can't be... the dark lord? Denethor Laughed. Obiously they're refering to the witch king as its said in page 108 from my edition: Now, Barad-dûr's lord, the most powerfull
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg It's not that easy: the statements of Gandalf can be interpreted as follow: the Witch-King spread terror in the hearts of the defenders. The first quote has a context of the Witch-King against Gondors armies, which could flee in terror. Gandalf is more afraid of the Nine because they spread despair and thus weaken the defence, and only Gandalf could stop it, but not everywhere in Minas Tirith.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg The second one can be explained in three ways: the one that I just stated, so in order of commanding the army; the fact Gandalf didn't flee from the Witch-King but guarded the wounded; and that he didn't want to show, or tell, what he's capable of. The Valar forbade him to do that, and Eru too. Only in the most urgent situations, like at the gates of Minas Tirith, where he didn't showed any fear, he could use his powers, like it's stated in the letters.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Denethor asked to Gandalf if he retired when finding a more powerfull enemy refering to witch king, gandalf askes: perhaps but the time to test our powers hasn't come. Then he explained the profecy over the witch king, including himself as a man. They're not talking about witch king's army, in any cae its sauron's army, the witchking its the captain not the lord of the army, they're talking about witch king. Gandalf did not show preocupation about the nine, only about the one
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg Gandalf showed doubt about that prophecy, and also: it was a prophecy, not some waterproof defence of the Witch-King against every man. Also, I'm talking about the greatest power of the Nine: fear, and that's still the greatest power of the Witch-King: to make the defenders despair so their fighting power is reduced. Also, Gandalf said the Witch-King didn't show himself on the front, so the greatest peril wasn't there yet, and the wounded needed more help.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Gandalf showed no doubt on the prophecy: he said that he destiny diserves his fall in the hands of something that he ignores but for sure not a man. I know that its a prophecy not a protection, we've seen what happened when eowyns and merrys swords stabbed into him. And of course fear its the witchking's greatest power but his spells could also be a problem for gandalf, as gandalf himself recognized the withking as a great sorcerer and retired against him before the siege.
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg He said something about it: IF it was true. The "if" is crucial. And if the Witch-King attacked Gandalf, then the future (from the point of view of Glorfindel) would be changed, and the prophecy wouldn't have been made. Thus it can be argued the prophecy did foresee the fact there wasn't a confrontation. Not to mention the fact you don't have to kill the Witch-King to defeat him: he was defeated at Angmar and the Fords of Bruinen.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@MasterBombadillo His army was defeated not him exactly. The future can't change if there's a prophecy, we can't know what would have happened in the confrontation.
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg The most powerful servants under Morgoth were Sauron and Gothmog. I don't know about the dragons but I doubt it, since the balrogs were maias. You even know what a maia is? Sauron was an maia, Saruman was an maia and Gandalf. The balrog was an maia too....the witch king was a former king. Who was given one of the rings of power...and got corrupted and turned into a wraith by Sauron. He fled from an elf, he was defeated by Elrond's spells according to yourself. And Sauron made the
Hermoor 10 months ago
@Hermoor of course i know what a Maia is. You even have readed the silmarilion? do you know what made the valar's army get back after the balrogs were defeated like ants and the ones surviving ran away? The dragons and not the balrogs. Glorfindel was an elf and defeated a maiar, a balrog, you understimate too much the power of the sons of iluvatar, and the witch king was a really powerfull one as man, much more powerfull as undead.
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg Yeah right glordfindel killed a balrog...and? There is a HUGE difference betwene man and elf.
Hermoor 10 months ago
@Hermoor of course, turin, a man, will kill Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorath, Beren, a man, made the most incredibly thing in all arda's history, for sure there's a HUGE difference between a man and an elf
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg *incredible*
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg nine flee at the tower in the first book all alone. And finally he was defeated by a hobbit and a woman...you can't seriously suggest that Gandalf the white...the upgrade...better than the grey that defeated the BALROG. Would fear this human?
Hermoor 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg Obviously the only reason you suggest something so foolish is because you think he is cool...well sorry but coolness doesn't equal strength. If that would be the case then Gollum would kick everyones ass but he doesn't, he is the weakest creature alive....
Hermoor 10 months ago
@Hermoor think he is cool? i don't remember that, he is a simply character not too much sifisticated please tell me were i said that he is cool, because i aported facts but you haven't yet
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg Lol...I havne't got anything more to say...HE WAS defeated by a hobbit and a human girl...and you say he can defeat a maia who has slain a balrog. Give me a BREAK!
Hermoor 10 months ago
@Hermoor you definitly did pay no attention in the film betwen his fight with eowyn and merry or did not read the book...
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@Hermoor sry i redacted id bad, i meant: you did not pay attention in the film in his fight with eowyn and merry or you did not read that part in the book.
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg We can argue, like I said, that Gandalf could rob the Witch-King from his shape instead of killing him. After all, the Witch-King was defeated at the Fords of Bruinen, and couldn't get rid of Gandalf the Grey when confronting him at Weathertop, while it was night and had the other Nazgul, thus when the Nine are at the maximum of their power.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Its not really known how this happened but its obious that they did not confront each other since Gandalf told Denethor: the time to coonfront our powers hasn't come yet. CHristopher and not Tolkien himsels constated that there were 7 balrogs, we don't know how many dragons. Primary Servant means not the most powerfull. Probabbly for Sauron was ok having the Balrog commanding Moriathe same having The giant spider( i don't know his name in english) in cirith ungol.
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg It was because of Gandalf no battle occurred: Tolkien stated in letter 156 that Gandalf organized the human resistance, and it was so powerful there was no battle between the two. Also, from information in the same paragraph of that letter, we can see Gandalf could act like an "angel", being able to use a very large part of his power as Olorin. And he was sent (especially as the White Wizard) as the enemy of Sauron, for that purpose (again, stated in letter 156).
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg About the Balrogs: Christopher stated "In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed."
This note was written by Tolkien himself in a later stage of his writings than in the beginning. In TBOLT, the earliest version, there are hundreds of Balrogs, and they were weaker in power than we see in the published Silmarillion (the huge numbers of death indicates this).
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg For the Balrog of Moria: he didn't exactly command things: letter 210 states that the Balrog never speaks or make vocal sounds, or laughs or sneers.
Also, why don't bind the Balrog to you as you're own servant, in order to make him much more useful to you? If so, he could've planned to use the Balrog in an attack on Lothlorien (he made his plans before the death of the Balrog), and the Elven realm would've fallen almost certainly. He would've done it with Smaug according to Gandalf.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@MasterBombadillo at the contrary, a Balrog its not enough to take down Celeborn, Galadriel and his army and power, but if the Balrog leaves Moria for sure Moria would be taken back by the free people,probabbly dwarvens and that would be rally bad. The Balrog does not speak but its not hard to notice that the goblins follow him as leader in Moria since thanks to him they conquered it.
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg A Balrog, in combination with the armies of Moria and the rest of the Misty Mountains, in combination with forces from Dol Guldur, would've done very much damage to Lothlorien, if not destroyed it. The Balrog would've been Saurons most powerful servant by far, and the attack on Lorien I speak of would've been during the War of the Ring, the Free Peoples wouldn't dare to take over Moria while their homes were under heavy attack. Also, Balins expedition failed, and so would others...
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@MasterBombadillo In the Misty Mountains there aren't many goblins remaining, the major part died in the battle of five armies. The army from Dol Guldur its also weak since Sauron was defeated there. Without the Balrog Moria would be easy to take and would be an important fortress and mining place so free people would dare to take it. The Dwarves can create an army powerfull enough to take Moria, his number doesn't matter since they use really good armors, weapons and have a huge endurance.
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg "Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains", which is said long before the War of the Ring started. Besides that fact, the Orcs took back Moria and killed the Dwarves of Balin, which indicates great numbers due to the fact the Bridge of Khazad-Dum is a most solid piece of defence, and Dwarves are much better warriors then Orcs. Not to mention they send at least hundred Orcs in order to kill the Fellowship and did a raid on Mirkwood: those mountains are stronger then you think.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg Also, history teaches us that numbers do count: WW II is won by this fact by the allies, who stood against the best war-technology in the world while fighting Germany. Quality doesn't always prevails over quantity. Also, it were Orcs that retook Moria, indicating the same thing I said, in fact: you made my argument stronger.
Dwarves can't create an army powerful enough to take Moria as long Erebor is under siege. Taking Moria is the task of the House of Durin, who are in Erebor.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg ... without the help of a Balrog. The Dwarves aren't many in numbers, and their most important home is Erebor.
Also, Galadriel nor Celeborn were depicted great warriors like Fingolfin, Feanor, Ecthelion or Turgon, but their power lies in wisdom. The Balrogs that were killed in the First Age were killed by great Noldor warriors, who had seen the Undying Lands (and Celeborn didn't). They could only counter the enormous amount of terror the Balrog spread among the Elven ranks.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@MasterBombadillo The Balrog does not put as terror in the people as the Witch King does. Galadriel and Celeborn could easily stop him while another would take him down, its not necessary having battle spells to fight a powerfull monster. Take a look at what Luthien did to Sauron, the werewolves, Carcharoth, or Melkor himself, and she had no battle powers. Celeborn was born before the first age as Galadriel, seen Valinor or not he is really powerfull, So the armys of Moria are not enough
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg Barlogs are called Demons of Might, and Demons of Terror in the Silmarillion. And LOTR (and the Silmarillion) stated they spread terror and might. Also, the Elves (and Dwarves) do fear the Balrog much more than a Nazgul: Legolas shot one of the Nine at Anduin, but couldn't do anything in front of a Balrog, he even wailed.
Luthien was half Maia, she had more power over those things than normal Elves. Also, her voice seemed to be the most powerful besides that of Bombadil.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg Like I said: all the Balrogs in the First Age were killed by powerful warriors. In battle, no-one else used the same tactics. Also, this attack comes from Dol Guldur and Moria, thus dividing the Elves strength.
And for you're Dwarven-argument: less Dwarves in Erebor means less resistance, and so it could be good for Sauron to let them take Moria, maybe even better then that they don't take it. But like I said, they don't have time to retake it during the War of the Ring.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg The witch king is nothing compared to a Balrog or any maia for that matter.
Hermoor 10 months ago
@Hermoor
the witch king would have pwnd the balrog of khazad-dum
Babdele 10 months ago
@Babdele How would he pwn the fire demon....if he was being scared away by a torch? Also not to mention he was killed by a girl and a hobbit lol....
Hermoor 10 months ago
@Babdele so not!
Kimern97 8 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Galadriel's and Celeborns power doesn't only lie in wisdom. I don't know about celeborn but Galadriel was a great magic user.
Hermoor 10 months ago
@Hermoor Both are more wise than they have real battle power. Against a Balrog, they wouldn't fare well. Also, they don't seem to have the fighting skills of the Noldor Lords who killed the Balrogs in the First Age. In terms of fighting skills, they wouldn't stand long against Glorfindel, Fingolfin, Feanor, Turgon or Ecthelion.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@MasterBombadillo But they could always sap then with their lightening bolts...Gandalf wasn't a good fighter either. He killed the balrog with magic...
Hermoor 10 months ago
@Hermoor We can't see Elves use lightning bolts. They can use magic, but certainly not in the extent the Ainur did. Also, magic in Tolkien's world is certainly not only shooting lightning from ones fingers, but most of the time, it's more mental: Saruman's voice, the Rings to control people, talking to nature, etc. And powerful in Tolkien's world does certainly not means "good in battle". Galadriel's power doesn't lies in direct battle, but rather in deception, more like the Girdle of Melian.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@MasterBombadillo If valar uses his full power for sure it would have bad consequences or he would have used them against the balrog, he prefered to die before using them and he did not know that he would be taken to life again. In his white Gandalf form( not Olorin, i'm not talking about that), the witch king its match for him. In Minas Tirith he was the hope remaining, of course he did not feel fear, if he does who would stand then? All I claim is that witch king its mach for gandalf
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg No...the witch king fled from an elf...he got defeated by a hobbit and a human lady...he fled from gandalf the GREY at the umm tower in the first book. Gandalf...defeated a balrog...and he was a lesser god. You can't even compare the two. What gandalf "fears" in the witch king is his servants and what he does to the morale of gondors troops. He doesn't fear him in a 1 on 1 situation...you can't just look at one scentence from the book you have to take everhting into account.
Hermoor 10 months ago
@Hermoor At the siege of Gondor the witch-king its at his full power. If you've seen/readed the figth between the witch king and eowyn you probabbly understand why he lost. I take everything into acount but Gandalf's word its the most important fact and he stated that he fled from the witch king, not from a bucnh of orcs. Of course he also fears what witch king can do to his armys. You can't compare the balrog's powers and the witchking's ones, they're completly different, witch king uses
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@Hermoor powerfull spells and puts fear and despair in the heart. The balrog uses fire spells and its a great melee fighter, of course Gandalf was protected against the fire pretty well. We don't even know what is capable of the witch king, we would need to see what would have happened when the witch king imbolbed his sword into fire to throw a dark spell on gandalf.
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg Gandalf was a Maia, but was forbidden to show his true power by the Valar. When the Grey Pilgrim "died", he was sent back by Eru, and in great emergency, he could act like an "angel" (taken from letter 156). He stated he was the second most dangerous being in Middle-Earth.
Also, he defeated the Balrog, and you say without using his full potential. The Balrog was the most powerful fighter under Morgoth, and Sauron couldn't control him, and you say the Witch-King was more powerful?
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@MasterBombadillo when I said that? i said that they're too diferent, also the Balrog wasn't the strongest in Morgoth's army, Dragons were superior and of course Sauron himself even without the ring its much more superior. He had his own army, since there were only 7 Balrgos that acted as Morgoth's personal guard, this does not mean that while Morgoth was prisioner the Balrogs did not listen Sauron in Angband since Morgoth himself told him to organize everything while he was prisioner
CondeDrareg 10 months ago
@CondeDrareg The Balrogs didn't exactly act as Morgoths personal guard. They fought in battles, while Morgoth stayed home. And because there were only seven Balrogs in fact proves Tolkien's intention to make them very powerful.
Also, if Sauron could control the Balrog, why didn't he do it? The Balrog is much more powerful than the Nine, yet the Nine are the most powerful servants of Sauron. And the Dragon-discussion is a long one, but the Balrogs were Morgoth primary servants.
MasterBombadillo 10 months ago
@Hermoor sauron did not choose the remaining balrog as his right hand, or any werewolf or orc, he chosed the witch king of angmar for any reason, and for any reason he put in his right hand an important amount of his own power and teached him his dark spells, so the witch king its not a corrupted man with some magic. His magic powers are enough to confront gandalf the white, probably not defeating him but giving him serious problems for sure. As i said, no match for Olorin, match for gandalf
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg Yeah he could challenge Gandalf, but not defeat him...he is not a god you know...Gandalf defeated in his weak form as the grey a balrog of morgoth. The balrogs were almost at the same rank as Sauron under Morgoth...the witch king a mere human could never do that and absolutely not Gandalf the white. If you instead of looking at the movies and judging from them read the books. You will understand this...
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor oh the books, of course. What you tried to say, acording to the books: Galadriel was Finarfin's daughter, Feanor was his uncle, and there were alot of great elves in arda history: Feanor, Thingol, Luthien, Fingolfin, FIngon, Gil-galad, Felagund, Cuthalien... Galadriel never stressed among this names, she became important when she became the ruler of lorien, her power, as i said, was her beuty and wisdom, not her fighting skills or destructive spells. As i said, Gandalf had Narya
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg As a young elf she competed in duels with magic and she was undefeatable. One of the greatest magic users among elves. You can't deny this...I have read somewhere that the greatest among elves ever were Fingolfin of course...and Galadriel. You can't compare the "strength" of the witchking to Galadriels power. She was student under one of the Valas for goods sake, and she was an elf. The witchking was a mere human WRAITH...and he was scared away by aragorn with a torch. >_>
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor a huge help against a fire Maiar as a Balrog is. A balrog its not close in power to Sauron, there were 7 Balrogs, none of them had higer or equal to Sauron, not even Gothmog. If you take a book to the books instead of judging for the films, the first thing you will discover its that a Balrog its not as huge and incredible as Jackson made him look. The witch king, a human, had higher rank in saurons army than a balrog, still sacerd in moria because of the War of Wrath
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg The Balrogs never fought under Sauron...if Sauron had any control over the remaining of THE remaining Balrog he would surely bring him up from the depths and make him fight for him. But you are right...Gothmog the other hand could probably be somewhat equal to Sauron.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg But the fact remains, there were many who could kick the witchking ass including...Eowyn HAHA...Gandalf and many others would kill him like that.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor Wow, Eowyn was no match for the witch king alone, she won by luck with merrys help. Gandalf could win but not easily. And the Balrogs, since Sauron was Melkor's right hand, were under his direct control in aussence of Melkor. Gothmog was defeated by an elf, his power its not even close to Sauron's one. Galadriels magic powers never were for the battle, never, his power was beauty, wisdom, capability to create beauty things, persuasion, etc, not power in a direct battle against another
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg Yeah...a hobbit killed the witch king...you think that is better than Eowyn killing him? A hobbit and a human girl killed him...wow yeah right Elrond and Galadriel wouldn't stand a chance. And Gandalf would have a hard time taking him down...yeah right...Yeah Gothmog was defeated by Fingolfin...umm isn't Galadriel in the same generation or not so far from Fingolfin? But who cares that an elf defeated Gothmog, this proves my point...Galadriel being one of the most powerful elves
Hermoor 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg ever should easily be able to deal with the wtichking, also Isildur killed Sauron...WOW...Elf kills Gotmog, man kills Sauron and hobbit kills the witchking. And you say Elrond and Gandalf would have a hard time with the witchking...lol...you fail...
Hermoor 11 months ago
@CondeDrareg And Galadriel's power wasn't beauty, in the first age she was one of the most powerful magic users among elves. Only Feonor was a higher or more powerful elf than herself...in the third age she is very powerful. If she had taken the ring from Frodo she would become as strong as Sauron..she would overthrow him. Except for Gandalf and maybe Saruman/Radagast she is the most powerful being on the good side of all the beings in middle earth...umm yeh maybe below Bombadil too.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor Have you ever read Tolkien's letters? If you did, think about letter 246: Tolkien stated only Gandalf (and the Istari when you read his arguments), could challenge Sauron alone if he had the Ring, and the outcome would be uncertain. Galadriel, or Elrond, couldn't challenge the power of Mordor, even with the Ring in their possession, unless they had an army, and an empire as back-up, while facing Sauron.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Of course not Elrond...but Galadriel possibly could. People underestimate how powerful she was as an elf.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor I think you overestimate Galadriel. She may be powerful, but Tolkien stated she couldn't defeat Sauron, even if she was in possession of the Ring. She would need an empire and an army to attack him, but face-to-face, she would be inferior to the Maia. Same goes for Elrond.
Also, Elrond is close in power to Galadriel. The same letter (246) stated: "so were the other guardians..., especially Elrond". True, Galadriel wasn't among the others, but the words include a powerful Elrond.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo I'm not saying Elrond is weaker, but not as proficient in magic as Galadriel. I think you oversestimate Sauron in the shape he is in. Without the ring he isn't very strong. He put half of his soul into that ring. There is a reason he stays in mordor throughout the ring wars, looking over his chess board with the one eye. Without the ring he is too weak...with the ring as stated by both Galadriel and Gandalf. They would become very powerful...instead of a dark lord you would
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor Like I said, the things I said aren't just opinion, but are stated by Tolkien himself. It's true Sauron is weaker than with the Ring, but he build his power up for 3000 years. Stated by Galadriel, but you seem to forget the nature of the Ring. Letter 246 again, says that the Ring put thoughts of supreme power in minds. It stated even with the Ring, Gandalf the White would be somewhat equal in strength as Sauron: the balance being delicate between them.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Right then why didn't Sauron go out and pwn everyone with his superior strength?
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor Do you forget the statement of Denethor that easily? Great lords don't fight, only triumph over other. Only in great need they would fight, like at the Siege of Barad-Dur.
Also, he didn't need to come out: his armies were powerful enough to do the job, so he wouldn't need to risk his body again, and search for the Ring to recover his full strength.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@Hermoor Sauron wasn't an Eye. The Eye was just a metaphor used to describe his will and attention. The same metaphor is used for Morgoth, who certainly wasn't an eye, and Second Age Sauron, who most certainly didn't had an eye-shape either.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo So there was no eye on the top of Barad dur? I admit I could have been clouded on this subject due to the films. I always got the impression there was an eye and that Sauron used being in a material form to look over his chessboard and search for the ring. If he was as powerful as you say he is WITHOUT the ring. Then why didn't he lead the assault on Gondor?
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor There isn't even prove a Maia could take a shape like that: all the shapes we see are shapes from living organisms, not some parts of it.
Like I said, he didn't come out because great lords don't fight the battles themselves, only in great need. Morgoth didn't came out his fortress either: he just ruled over his minions, but was more powerful than any other being, save for the Valar and Eru. They didn't need to come out: their armies were big enough, and they had reliable commanders.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo have a queen...Sauron with the ring would be impossible for Galadriel to defeat but without the ring in his current shape. He isn't very powerful...
Hermoor 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo and could possibly be killed by both Gandalf and Galadriel...Galadriel would defeat him with the ring and Gandalf would defeat him if he was allowed to. But he wasn't allowed to go power against power. He was just there to guide the children of illuvatar. Sauron with the ring was weak...you can't deny this.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor Sauron without the Ring was still the most powerful entity in Middle-Earth. Gandalf the White stated it, giving the second one to himself. And of course it's a joke what PJ did to the scene between Gandalf and the Witch-King. Gandalf was far too powerful, and could use his full potential (Olorin's potential) if needed, but still wasn't a match for Sauron.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Maybe you are right...after all it was stated somewhere that Sauron was more powerful in the third age than Morgoth was at the end of the first age. Gandalf would probably have a hard time defeating him even with the ring...btw don't you think Tom was more powerful than Gandalf? Gandalf could surely have been mistaken when he said that he was the second strongest in middle earth after Sauron. One has to remember the fight between him and the balrog was a tie really...
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor No, it was stated Sauron at the height of his power, by the end of the Second Age and thus with the Ring, was more powerful than Morgoth at the end of the First. Third Age Sauron was weaker. And indeed, Gandalf would've a very hard time defeating Sauron even with the Ring, but like I said, even then the outcome would be unclear: the Ring's true allegiance was to Sauron.
Gandalfs fight with the Balrog was as the Grey Wizard, the statement came from the White.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Somehow I doubt Tom would be defeated easily by Sauron...having been in middle earth BEFORE Melkor entered. He is surely some kind of uber powerful servant under eru and probably stronger than Sauron...since he was able to make the ring dissapear O.o
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor For Bombadil, he is the greatest mystery in LOTR: his power and true identity are unknown. Therefore, we can't know how strong he really is. It's stated by some he could be the Vala Aule, and then he would be the most powerful entity in Middle-Earth. But even Gandalf doesn't know his identity, and he doesn't participate in the war, so it could be argued he wouldn't be counted in the "ranking".
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@Hermoor Sauron would certainly have a difficult job against Bombadil. We can't say Bombadil didn't have power over the Ring: it's stated in the Council of Elrond that the Ring didn't have power over him. This could be easily explained by the carefree nature of Bombadil, not longing for any kind of power, and just fully accepts himself the way he is. The disappearance of the Ring could be explained simply too: just a magic trick. It's not because something is more powerful, you can't affect it.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@Hermoor Also, the Ring's strongest protection was the corruption. He couldn't corrupt Bombadil, so Bombadil was able to do things with it nobody else would even consider. He would even forget about the Ring eventually, because he didn't find it important at all. He just lives in the "now", and is fully happy.
This discussion isn't infused with much canonical facts like the previous one, so I hope we can have a long argument.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Yeah agree completely, but I doubt he is the vala Aule. He was certainly not proficient in crafting things, I imagine Aule would at least be a bit interested in the ring. Tom couldn't care less, he has a very powerful voice and could with his songs command both wraith and old tree. He must be higher in power than a maia since he was in middle earth even before the valas! This would make him stronger than Sauron and any other being in middle earth at the time.
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor I agree with you on Bombadil is probably a nature spirit. It's the closest thing I can come up with to the character of Bombadil. However, showing interest isn't the same as longing for power and possession, threats Aule didn't have. Bombadil did show interest in the Ring, but didn't care much about it. For him, it was a fun story.
I don't agree with you he would be more powerful than the Valar: that's too close to the Iluvatar-theory. Also, the Ainur were still made before Bombadil.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo The valas were made before Tom? Then how could he be in varda before the valas entered it? He must surely have been created by Eru at the time of the creation of the world. I always thought that the world was created by Eru...then the ainur filled it with their song and created trees etc. He couldn't have been created by the valas since they can't create life...only empty puppets that they can control. So he must have been created by eru BEFORE the valas entered it. This means
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor The Ainur were created first: Melkor went already to the Void before Arda was placed in there (Varda is a Valar, Arda is the Earth, I was confused when you switched those terms). The Earth was created after the Music of the Ainur, and then the Valar and Maiar were sent down and made the world. I agree with you he couldn't be a Vala or Maia. But there aren't other Ainur on Arda than the Maiar and the Valar. Maybe Eru created other creatures, but it's not an Ainur.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo he really couldn't have been an vala or a maia since if he was he would be entering the world with them. But he was in there before they entered...I don't know if you could call him a nature spirit...since I'm not sure exactly what that is. But he can't be a vala or a maia...I would suggest that since he is singing...that he is one of the ainur but still not one of the valas or the maias. Probably the embodiment the spirit or the tool eru used to create the world in the first
Hermoor 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo place...the valas just filled it. I think it could be possible that he was the right hand of Eru in creating the world. A spirit that has never left it...who was there before the valas filled it with trees...who saw the first rain drop fall etc...
Hermoor 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo I can't come to any other conclusion than that he is a vala...maybe a unknown vala...I never really understood what was the point in naming the valas the ainur. Maybe the ainur were not only the valas but something else as well. Maybe Tom belong to this group of something else...it could be Maia, Vala and something else Oo. The valas seem to be dealing with elves and huamans and hunting suns whatnot...but before they entered varda the world was already there and so was bombadil
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor There aren't any unknown Valar, and of the Valar, Aulë comes closest to the being of Bombadil. However, I just see too much differences between Aulë and Bombadil, and other problems like he didn't care about the war or the Ring - but that could be explained by the same reason the Istari weren't allowed to show their true powers because the Free Peoples had to do it on their own, but with guidance. Maybe Aule was there as last resort, but I doubt it.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago
@MasterBombadillo But if you explain what a nature spirit is and who created them for what purpose maybe I could change my mind...I don't think I have read about nature spirits before in the silmarillion or any other work. Also something very important...is that he doesn't seem to care. He doesn't care about the ring or anything materialistic. This is a very godlike virtue...even melkor and many of the valas cared about materialistic things...Aule made things...tom only cared about the world and
Hermoor 11 months ago
@Hermoor It's true Tolkien didn't write about nature spirits, but it's easy to get the idea from his sources: old mythologies. There are many examples of nature spirits in those stories.
A nature spirit, to me, is a being who's source is something natural (this doesn't necessarily means Eru didn't create him: he could've made intentionally the possibility of nature spirits), and can be associated with that thing. I would call Bombadil an earth spirit, and Goldberry a water spirit.
MasterBombadillo 11 months ago