S shape or straight tone arm, whitch is better?

[nwansten]

I copied this from the Stanton Website where it talks about cartridge setup:

Some scratch DJs will angle their cartridges 23 degrees on the headshell. Note: Angle outward on S-shaped tonearms (this will emulate the angle of a straight tone-arm and help the needle hold the groove better). Angle inward on straight tonearms this will emulate the placement of an S-arm for fidelity (sound quality)

Side note: Some people on here need to grow up. Dont be dicks! this guys here to help and ask advice.

[ddapriori1]

I see no difference. The S shape is a straight arm at the point it intersects the groove, rather it is equivalent to a straight arm located on the plinth on the tangent line. The thing that bothers me is that, if the tangent is the best location of the stylus, then why not move the entire arm assembly of a straight arm toward the center in order to keep that tangent at that point throughout the vinyl recording? The entire assembly should float as the stylus is dragged inward.

[khanm95]

theres only one way to find out...FIGHT!!!!!!!!!

[hifigeek009]

You need to move one screw back and one screw forward on the straight arm head shell so the cartridge is at a slight angle pointing inwards towards the centre. The Stanton head shell for their straight arm models has a guide line so you can set the angle right. Best regards, hifigeek

[49kasey]

You're welcome, idiot!!!

[MrDemilord]

Thats why i hate the cheap ass usb turntables these days!

[49kasey]

@MrDemilord Best thing would be to find a small stereo shop that sells new and used stuff and find someone older who's interested in helping you. He can set up a decent affordable combination for you and explain things. Basic rule of thumb is to handle your records only by the edges and clean them with a carbon fiber record brush. Use a stylus brush, not your finger. Belt drive tables are the audiophiles' choice. Japanese cartridges rule. DJ cartridges are like the low-priced 1960's standard.

[MrDemilord]

@49kasey I dont mean belt or DD.. I mean that I prefer the S Shaped arm... I do prefer Direct Drive... It has less Wow and Flutter.. I no you get a little more hum but the new ones its almost none existent

[SoundOut260]

S-shaped all the way man ,you cant set up a Straight arms propley just got me self a pair of Stantons str8 150 there a night mare ,you cant seem to set them propley to play 12" and 7" ive got a lot a Ja records ,its law of physics as the record plays to the end it changes the angle simple as.! we need a moving arm so the angle stays the same all the time.

[49kasey]

@SoundOut260 As long as we're talking about a pivoted tonearm, it will swing in an arc across the record and the cartridge/stylus can be truly tangent to the groove and give lowest distortion at only one point. The proper cartridge mounting will result in the stylus being set to the best compromise, being nearly tangent at two points. This can only be done using an overhang protractor. That's what that little white plastic thing is that comes with all Technics turntables.

[newfuckingwave]

can anyone tell me if it is possible to put an s-shaped arm on a turntable that was fitted originally with an straight arm? it just seems to me like the two should be positioned at different angles to the platter

[freezazoid]

1:25 .... that's why you need to setup your cartridge to be parallel with the grooves in the record which you haven't done. There's a reason why MOST tone-arms are straight... it's not like engineers are just dumbasses who haven't thought of this shit.

[Eugen987654321]

No, I do not think that that is a good idea, what I see with the angled arm is that the closer your get to the center of the record, the more skewed that needle will become,if it's conical that I suppose it doesn't matter, but if it's an elliptical needle than having the cartridge like that will be like drifting in a car. I think that having the needle centered will be the best approach as this allows the counterweight evenly distribute pressure throughout the bottom of the grove.

[ukfan4sure1]

Turning the cartridge in the headshell is a practice I have seen a lot. It works. It also helps with the anti-skating.

[49kasey]

Man, you've got way too many videos on Youtube. You newbie. What matters is the headshell angle, not whether the arm is straight or S-shaped. What were you trying to prove by skewing the cartridge on turntable #1? I've worked in stereo shops and been an audiophile and a vinyl junkie since the 1960's and have set up at least hundreds of turntables. You are passing on a lot of misinformation.

[freezazoid]

@49kasey you can't change the angle of the headshell... you mean cartridge I would assume. The headshell just screws into the tonearm and you can't adjust the angle. He definitely didn't angle his cartridge properly.

[49kasey]

@freezazoid What I meant in my comment was that the shape of the arm is irrelevant. What matters is the relative offset of the headshell, what the cartridge is mounted to. And you're right, that cartridge mount is just plain sloppy. The right position, angle and settings are all very critical for best performance.

[crc8109]

@49kasey hey im starting to get into vinyls and i really want to learn as much as possible about the whole process, from playing them properly, to selecting a good record player etc. do you know of any good forums or could you maybe give me a summary of what info id need most. id really appreciate it

[ECgod77]

It's funny, because on my Technics ca. 1980s P mount, the cartridge is actually held at that perfect angle to the record where you plug in the cartridge , and that's attached to the straight tone arm.

[thisthyme]

With DJ decks there isn't always a VT adjustment. and the OM is too tall for some. cart angle is critical DON'T GUESS.

vinylengine. free cartridge-alignment-protractor­s

Sphericlal stylii cause less wear. Lateral rotation and overhang keep the cartridge square to the groove all the way in. Which is better? For Groove Grinders, Who cares? S Shaped for fixed headshells and concorde style carts, straight for universal mounts. Cheap decks for cheap vinyl, good for good.

[TrainAsia]

I have a Pioneer PL-A25 (1970's) with straight tonesarm and I offset the cartridge slightly (as sewen on this viseo) on my current replacement straight headshell (the original headshell is missing and I cannot find a replacement for it) and it seems to work fine ...... anyone know of the reason or reasons not to do that?

[superhornet59]

The word is "tangential"

[durrwin]

Straight tone arm = scratching

S-shaped = mixing

obviously you could do both (mixing/scratching) with both sets of tone arm i just think they are optimized for that like styli (spherical= scratching, elliptical = mixing) but still can use both for anything really :D

[2632jibaro]

Jason J Cruz

My Turn Table does not have a straight Arm S Arm. My Turn table is a Sony Model PS-2350 I repalce my whole Head Shell. ATN-3600 My New Head Shell came with new sytles Needle. Still not sure how to adjust Tracking force and Anti Skate. The directions say's 1.5 to 3 grams is average Then rotate anti skate to be equal

[dhsc19]

I would think that the real issue between straight and s-shape is not the tone arm, but the needle: whether it is spherical or elliptical. The s-shaped allows the needle to sit in the groove in the same tangent angle no matter what position on the record, it would make sense that such a tone are can use either needle type. However, a on a straight tone arm the tangent angle changes and it would seem that an elliptical needle would wear the record much more in certain angles. Thoughts?

[cranie4]

I would think a properly setup Anti Skate would make the "extra" wear from a straight tonearm minimal.

[ReboyGTR]

It's funny because i thought that Technics turntables were THE BEST turntables for scratching and mixing alike, but you're saying that straight tonearms are better for scratching? It makes you wonder why Technics keeps making turntables with S-shaped arms then? For the sake of nostaliga?

[nadix001]

Use a protactor to set up a cartridge. You can download them from Vinylengine.

[momatt]

Aahhh, blah blah blah. You could've said all that in about 30 seconds.

[force311999]

the cartridge is only square to the record in one spot so it should be squared

up to the center of the record. the only way a needle can be square over the entire record is a linear tracking arm or mabie a twin arm set up like on windshield wipers LOL

[viking1au]

Part way there, but should be using special alignment protractor for both aems to get the angle correct. There is a special protractor for the Technics and you can bet there is one for the Vestax, -- In fact all turntables, for the most part, offer them. After market items available also.

[marcelcruzeiro]

@viking1au Hi, do you know where I can find those protractors made for Technics?

[viking1au]

@marcelcruzeiro Hi; You may have a little hunt but go to the Vinyl Engine web site & click on Protractors. There are numerous protractors there, for various arms, turntables etc. You may have to read 1 or 2 articles submitted by Seb and choose. If memory serves o.k., there is an item specific for what you look for. If you have trouble getting onto the Vinyl Engine, and are diverted to Google, it happens to me also. Wait 1 or 2 days. --Find Seb on Youtube. He has an item on protractors. Regards.

[viking1au]

@marcelcruzeiro @marcelcruzeiro Found Seb on the tube for you. I searched Turntable Arm Alighnment and found the article - Show me your tracking Error, Posted by SEBatVE. ----Regards.

[viking1au]

@marcelcruzeiro Notice another guy from vinyl engine has something on the tube also, next to Seb (MBV) showing the v.e. web address. Most important, there are numerous protractors there you can download for free. --Most will have a size or measurement showing, for you to check before use.Print out size is important, resize by % if needed. - This will not apply not speed test stroboscopes, only the protractors. --- Rgds.

[marcelcruzeiro]

@viking1au Wow! I just read your messages, thank you so much! I'll talk to Seb, but I Googled what you said and it found those protractors, there are a good amount of them! Stevenson will do , but I'll try the Baerwald method design specifically for Technics tonearms. Again, thanks a lot for your help, and best wishes!

[garyc2]

But saying that I prob would still use an s shape for scratching with a penny on top.

[garyc2]

I think that the s shape was made for a good reason.

The straight arm used to be used for cheap record players.

I think the s shaped is more ballenced.

I agree that the stright arm might be better for scratching and it doesn't matter if it wear out the vinal slightly as scratching as this is bad for the record anyway.

[rikineill]

Just a quick drop to say great video - interesting and got me thinking about my set-up.

[slink132001]

I thought the sound came from the outer wall and the bottom of the groove, not the two walls.

[viking1au]

There are tools/ graphs made for alignment; some are free downloads from audiophile sites & can be tailored to the brand of tone arm. -- Anti-skate settings can have an influence also.

[fezza96]

thanks so much for the video! im looking to buy some VESTAX PDX 3000,but wasn't shure about tone arms.

So if you were getting VESTAX PDX 3000 is it worth getting the S-shaped arm for the extra,or just stick with the straigt??

[Gions54]

Hi Folks!!!!!

[Dessotto]

And it also has to do with how you align your cartridge.

[Dessotto]

You might want to set the anti skate on the s shaped to where the tone arm stays still rather than go inward or outward, ive tried to make my needle jump on my technics and it was preety damn hard if you set the anti skate right, when its at 0 it goes inward and at 3 it goes outward you gotta set just right,

There i have come to conclude that wether it be straight or s shaped it doesnt make a big diffrence its rather the same actually.

[physicmad]

just to note my M44-7 has a Spherical point so no mater what angle the needle is at the contact area is the same at different angles between (23 degrees)

[Jarmon1964]

Allow me to shed some light on the issue. The reason tonearms were ever made S shaped was to make it easier to align the cartridge to the groove , just bolt it in straight and you were set. You are correct that you must angle the cartridge to align it with the grooves with a straight arm. Tools are made just for this.

High end arms tend to be straight because it is easier to control resonance and you can use more exotic materials such as carbon fiber.

[6thCreated]

From what I know straight tone arms skip less, which make them better for scratching and battling. S-type tone arms have higher quality sound and are better for mixing(or sampling).

[6thCreated]

Oh and I forgot to say that I have seen straight tone arms on almost every extremely "high end" turntable that can cost up to $5000+ USD. The kind that are made for hardcore audio files. Not sure what that means though.

[sneskid]

Yes, but look at what is on the end of that straight arm, vs. the shorter straight arm on the turntable featured here.

[jorn89]

The thing i want to know is how much faster the straight arm wears the record out when looking at a s-shaped arm. I mean is it 2 times at fast or only 0.1 times as fast, that makes a difference!

And what if you are not a dj. Does it matter then if you use a straight or an s-shaped arm?

[blackdakkon]

My Numark TT200 manual instructs: "the screws should always be aligned perpendicular to the head shell (any angle may increase "record burn.")"

[wrongsideoftime]

"Stylus". Styli is the plural.

[frankiebones01]

Johnathon, I'm thinking it was Stanton which once had put markings on their headshells to angle the headshells, but nevertheless I am 100% with your theory on angle placement of the cart on a straight tone arm.

i actually do this on my Numark TTX when i switch as both tonearms come with the unit.

[traenq]

I use straight arm pdx3000s and have my shure m44-7s positioned at a SLIGHT angle inwards, too.

btw: I don't want to sound like a smartass, but AFAIK the singular form of "styli" is "stylus" .)

[dj0100]

I think it's a great idea and will be doing this to my str8 150's.

Cheers!

[djstuarthodson]

straight arm are mch better aint got decks if aint got tecnics

tecnics all the way

[jonasPausH]

that is nonesence.

i have a graham phantom tonearm.

surprise, it works. and it's a straight tonearm.

[machode]

I dont follow this - I thought the technics S shape tonearm was the one that jumped more - so why are you changing the angle of the straight arm to replicate the technics? Surely you should be doing it the other way round i.e angling the technics to resemble the straight arm.

[djtilidie]

I have the kam ddx4500s which u did a review on which made me choose them but i chose the wrong mixer i chose the vmx200 and i find them hard to mix with.If you have them nd you find it easy to mix with would u send me a message on how to use the bpm counter propaly

cheerz keanu

and nicee video

[rybred87]

when i got my last needles it said not to angle them with a straight arm but i dont no y. It seems like a good itea to me. good vid. straight arms do wear out vinyl faster but if your scratching who cares.

[dakiwidjsouthwest]

balanced correctly it will minimise the tracking forces, with the best point of play in the middle of the record. it a question of what part of the record you want to keep good, when playing records alot.

gotta be honest, some people are just plain rude on here, especially when they dont know what they are talking about lol...

[dakiwidjsouthwest]

nice one m8, a well thought out vid. something i have thought about myself. it is true that unless the arm/needle is in perfect line with the record, there will be some extra forces tracking either left groove/right groove. its a case of balance. turn in a cart to far and it will exert pressure on the inner part of vinyl. but if you dont turn it in there will ultimately be pressure at the beginning of tracks.

[f0rtywatt]

god forbid that anyone listens to this rubish! this guy has not got a clue! properly set up it will not make any difference to record wear wether the arm is straight or s shape, effective length is more relevent.

[jeanleto]

The S tornearm only makes sense when you have a removable shell with collar. You could have the same angle between the cartridge and the tonearm pivot with a straigth tonearm but the shell would be sightly angled. The idea is to get the cartridge tangential in the middle of the playing area of the disc. You will have some error both sides (outside of disc, and inner side of disc). This can be equally done on both type of arms. Protactor such as Dennensen are used for that.

[bridgebolt]

check it using vinyl protractor

[bramley1986]

as a scratch dj i much prefer straight tone arms, as the amount the needle jumps is reduced dramatically! my mate has some stanton str8-150 which have straight tone arms, i have 1210's which don't! as far as i'm concerned that is the only thing that is better about the stantons! what i want to know is has anybody heard of a modification to the 1210's converting them to a straight tone arm!? if so let me know thanks! by the way, really good video's mate! clear and accurate!!!

[duniavideographer]

the arm is straight but the stylus can be adjusted to follow and align with the center of the vinyl.

Angle the cartage a bit..the cartage doesn't have to be exactly straight with the arm.

Adjust the stylus to follow the vinyl groove

[JunebugBpt08]

this is tricky, i never really noticed but i took a quick look on needledoctor-dot-com .. audiophile straight arms have their headshells or the end of their tone arm turned in ..were some or all (not sure) dj straight arms are just simply straight.

[JunebugBpt08]

this is a real good video, great job. now it has me all thinking. im wondering now, why are most audiophile turntables, models from $1000 to $10,000 are all straight arm.

[djpaul213]

the stanton sk250 already done that the cart already is angled and its really a good idea i've been having mine for 4 years and 1 of the needle only got messed up cuz my dad touched my turntable and tried to put it away so it got caught on the slipmat and the needle broke so i have to buy new stylii but its really a good vid and good advice

[djinfamousnate]

i will start out by saying you have been most helpful with your advice, my mixing skills have greatly improved since i found your website. All that aside, my comment is that having owned turntables with straight tone arms and having read the users manuals. You will find in those manuals, for both turntables and carts, they recommend (strongly) that the cart is positioned on said angle to prevent added wear to the vinyl. Thanks again!!

[tur74d56]

The bent tone arm is better for playing music the striaght arm is better for mixing,scrating, you dont want to damage those cardriges they arent cheap to buy! i know.

[mcdoots]

NOW THEN!

[boffsta]

id say that you were right on that

[RadioKilla07]

S or J arm at low mass is better all around, with proper settings and good cartridge, you can perform just as good. The DMC is a great example

short straight arm is only good for heavy cueing "scratching" thats about it. it wrecks your grooves very fast being that the stylus sits in the groove very akward to compensate with the overhang. In my opinion thats not a great wager at all..

[Intersonus903]

An S/J/angled tonearm will always be better than a straight arm unless the straight arm is used in a a tangential (linear) tracking turntable with the stylus at a perfect 90 degree angle with the spindle.

The S/J/angled arms have negligible tracking error at all angles when properly set up using a protractor.

A straight arm will have massive tracking error resulting in distortion until the stylus reaches a 90 degree angle in relation to the spindle; around the middle of the record.

[VideoJunkei]

If the straight arm is longer, there would be less error? It would rotate less if longer! It would act more and more like a linear-tracking unit the longer it is...

[Watcher3223]

No. A longer straight arm will only shift the point of least tracking error elsewhere on the record.

Minimal tracking error at all positions with a straight arm is possible only if the stylus tracks at a perfect 90 degree angle to the center of the platter on any place on the record or if the angle is on the head shell or, like the Sony PS-Q7, the tonearm is angled near the gimbal.

Tracking error with a straight arm isn't an issue with spherical styli, but it's critical for elliptical styli.

[jeanleto]

Not true, longer tonearms, have less tracking error. but they are also more heavy. It is a question tradeoffs. Imagine a 10 foot tonearm: it would be almost tangential from beginning to end of disc, but very impratical to use, and perhaps not usable at all because of its weight.

[Watcher3223]

Google:

RETRO HI-FI TRACKING ERROR

[ilyarde]

Actually, by turning the cartridge you adjust the angle in the beginning of the record, but then you get an angle which is a lot worse when playing the inner grooves. So, you'd better not turn it unless you are only playing 1st tracks :-)

[cosmo1814]

that was very helpful. I have a Stanton straight tone arm and I do the same. I angle the needle slightly. I don't do any scratching or cutting, so I'm not too sure about wearning out vinyl. I still have vinyl from 30 years ago that sound great. thanks for the video

[DJJD]

i have straight tone arms and they skip quite a bit. i have yet to try S shape. ive always wanted to though, but i dont have cash for anything right now.

[shinri1]

An S shaped arm has far less tracking error and distortion than a straight arm, but the offset angle creates a force that pulls the arm inwards. The anti skating is there to counteract this force. The problem is that if you spin the record backwards, the force reverses to push the arm outwards. With a straight arm this force disappears when the cartridge is in line with the arm pivot, and NOT twisted in the headshell. Due to the tracking error, always use a spherical stylus with a straight arm.

[djsyks1]

I dont think theres much differance at all in record wear or scratchin,i scratch with my 1210s and it dosnt skip at all,if the cartriges are set up right s shaped tone arms hold just as good as str8 tone arms

[RA7]

my str8 arms have angled carts, they don't ever skip, and I havnt had problems with wear on either the needle or the vinyl

[pagbuya1379]

I agree. Str8 for scratching. S for general play and mixing. Just take a look at Shure's WhiteLabel Cart. It has a angle adjustment, but since I have a set of S-armed ta-tas I leave my angles at 0.

[Dom303]

The Shure WhiteLabel cart has adjustable overhang from 50 - 54mm. They come out of the box set to 52mm (standard for S arms). These are the only all-in-one cart i'd use on str8 arm decks, cos you can pull them back to the required 50mm. There is no adjustment for angle on them.

[Abrasaxon]

Groove Glide ;-P

If anything it makes great underarm deodorant!

[randomjunglist]

...and delicious on biscuits :)

[blickblocks]

With a spherical tip, there will be wear on either, it's inherent. Even with a linear tracking turntable.

With an elliptical tip, there will be more wear with the straight arm because it doesn't track as accurately as the curved. With a linear tracking turntable there won't be any more wear than with a spherical.

It mostly depends on the specific design of the turntable, however. It's not about the shape of the arm but it's point of contact and rotation.

[creamofcardstv]

I like your video clip and have rated it as awesome. Do you have a famous or infamous ancestor? Please check out my latest clip.

[Dom303]

have a read of this page about straight arm (underhung) DJ:

Type "kabusa straight" into Google and read the first page that comes up

[Dom303]

Another point is (see Vestax manual) the o/h is 50mm as opposed to 52mm required by Technics. This is one of the reasons why concorde carts aren't ideal for str8 arm decks, cos they are set at 52mm. This is why i would choose the OM type Ortofon carts as they are more adjustable. However, IMO i don't think that 2mm difference is much cause for concern and in real-world terms putting the cart as far forwards seems to visually give a better tracking angle.

[durake]

s-shaped gives better sound quality - good for mix dj

straight gives better scratch capability

[Dom303]

I came to the conclusion it is best to have them straight. If you angle them inwards it can give a better tracking angle on the outer part of the record only to distort it further when moving inwards nearer the center label.

[ow201]

If you buy S-shaped tone arms you can always adjust the angle on your cartridge so that it is inline with the tone arm assembly. It then behaves like a straight tone arm.

[brettland]

Good vid i cant comment on what is better as i have an s shaped tone arms and I've not used a straight arm before one thing i would say is when you look at a straight arm turntable it dose look like it would be harder to knock it out of the groove. i do agree with vinyl for ever

[podmixture]

Hey little bro! i also adjust the carthridge on the stright arm to curve to the left,list the s shape arm.and i have no problems, i do think that the stright arm will cause more harm then then good, in the long run.but why do all record collectors have stright arms on there turntables? and they pay up to 3000 dollars for them.now then,when are you gonna show us how to re-wire our technics 1200 turntables?

lol...my output wires are fried. love the show!

sonic.

[ellaskins]

Funny you should say that, i once had to re wire the tone arm, the only thing i have never replaced is the circut board, everything else i have pulled apart. all the best johnathan

[sneskid]

I know this is old, but I'll reply anyway.. First of all, casual listeners (in this case, record collectors and DJs are a completely different "bunch" so to speak. In short, a DJ needs a table that can take the abuse, while a casual listener wants something that sounds better, but can't take the abuse. That said, the straight arms of non-DJ tables are actually MUCH longer than the one featured here. Also, the headshell is mounted at an angle.

[sneskid]

This combination greatly reduces tracking error, which is required if you're listening on an audiophile level. The tracking error on a DJ table that doesn't have the S arm is much greater, which also means more mistracking distortion. especially in the inner grooves. This is also why you should never use an elliptical stylus in a straight arm DJ table.

[sneskid]

An elliptical stylus design is favored among casual listeners due to its ability to get more out of the groove while putting only a mere .75 - 1.5 grams on the record, but only if you're using a straight arm audiophile turntable or one with an S arm. Due to the increased tracking error on a straight-arm DJ table however, the use of an elliptical stylus will indeed completely trash your vinyl - as well as the stylus.

[DudasMiska]

The S shape looks more stylish, but the straight is more serious, they both are awesome. Turntables are defanitely the best...real original...true Dj...ciao

[DjElusive1982]

I think that vestax turntable you got there can be used on a 36 degree tilt. Straight arms are hard to knock out of the groove.

[Nyiddle]

S looks a lot prettier. That's my 2 cents.

[DjAdam16]

I like both styles hehehe

They both look nice and i really dont have any problems...

Altough.....i gatta admin the S style one looks wayyyyy more STYLISH as i would say !

But really...both are very nice !

[radiods]

i dont see anything wrong with that johnathan! in fact, i think its a brilliant idea.. i wish i could try it but i have banana style carts :(

[gwagers]

Neither is better, i agree with DJTGM and use cd players. no more dragging crates of vinyl around town at 3am

[jasonyoudj]

god support djs who dragging crates of vinyls at 3am

[codybird34]

i like the S shape :)

[djGoodfella24]

straight arm has better tracking,but does wear record down moree

[johngr2007]

Great video Johnathan. Please check out topdjgear website. Click on turntables on the left hand side of the page under products menu. Once on the turntable section, you will find at the top of the page they have great information regarding s shaped vs. straight arm. Note I am not trying to advertise nor do I endorse this site in any way. If at any time you want to edit this comment or delete it, I understand. Peace

[ellaskins]

No worries, the more info we can put togeather the better . Thanks johnathan

[whiteblitz]

then have both!!! vinyl and cd!!!

[BrianJunglist]

its worth the hassle vyinl for ever!

[DJTGM]

i saw just buy cd players there less hassle :D