Christianity does not require circumcision! Jews circumcise! Muslims circumcise! She says she reads the Bible and yet doesn't quote from the New Testament when asked about religion. This is ridiculous. These Christians don't even know their own religion. It is the USA or the JewSA? Come on, people. Talk about not knowing your religion.
Being "indifferent about infant circumcision" is like being indifferent about the child rape occuring at Penn State. We're talking about children being violently sexually assaulted and mutilated. Snap out of it.
I kind of feel that a quest to end circumcision is absurd, or more accurately, that some of the reactions are a bit more intense than what reason calls for unless the Judaizers have somehow come back into full force and are arguing that firstborn males need their foreskin cut off in order to be saved.
I see this as nothing more than a cultural issue rather than a religious one (as long as there are no Judaizers that is) and should be up for the parents to decide.
@ChristianLayman It's NOT absurd to the people that DIDN'T want to be circumcised in the first place! Weirdo baby mutilators need to leave babies bodies alone, it's NOT your fucking body!!!
Yeah, I can see that your emotional, profanity-laced rant is a reflection of someone that uses "love" in his screen name. If you're bitter over something so inconsequential and going to hold a grudge against your parents for it, then it's time to grow up and be a man and move on with your life. Good grief, you've got all the accusatory, venom-filled hatred of the most ardent Fundamentalist nut. If you wish to be taken seriously, learn to articulate calmly.
@ChristianLayman I DON'T give a FUCK about you mutilators, or your worthless opinions! Now go find yourself a train, & jump in FRONT of it, you fucking waste of life!!!
Ah, so the truth rears its ugly head at last. You accuse all the monotheists of mass murder, but then scream and rage in a manner befitting a spoiled brat and proceed to wish death upon a brother of the human race. And here I thought atheism was the "world-view of peace". If you believe that, then you're going to have to do better than what you've posted.
I pray to God that you're able to find the strength to overcome whatever is really depressing you.
@ChristianLayman I'm NOT an Atheist you stupid fuck, I'm Luciferian. Why don't you try reading once in a while, it WON'T harm you after all you ignorant P.O.S.
Wait, if you're a Luciferian, wouldn't you actually want the monotheists to keep killing people? I mean, with the weapons we have now, your precious Kingdom of Hell is just a thermo-nuclear blast away! I would think wanton bloodshed and destruction would then therefore be something you would applaud the monotheists to continue with. Ah, new atheists are such an interesting breed.
@ChristianLayman Wait, if you're a Luciferian, wouldn't you actually want the monotheists to keep killing people? I mean, with the weapons we have now, your precious Kingdom of Hell is just a thermo-nuclear blast away! I would think wanton bloodshed and destruction would then therefore be something you would applaud the monotheists to continue with. Ah, new atheists are such an interesting breed.
@ChristianLayman It's no "inconsequential" when there are complications (up to and including death) and even a tiny mistake - or even if it's done "correctly" - can have terrible effects on a man's sexual functioning. But even if he just resents not having the choice, that's legitimate too.
Most of these consequences hover are extremely rare, and then you negate the positive health benefits of circumcision. Yes, I listened to the video interview. I also visited the CDC as well.
@ChristianLayman You are in no position to know how common or rare negative consequences are. And there are no health benefits to removing healthy functional tissue.
And I should go along with your claims because you have what credentials in the medical community? Good grief, this is exactly how the Fundamentalists argue; not with fact, but with emotional hissy fits when someone dares to challenge their "authority". I reject you for the same reason I reject them.
@ChristianLayman Pleasure and pain are not inconsequential. They matter. How about you man up and come out of your denial.
This is a highly emotional issue. It has caused untold suffering. Just because it hasn't affected you (or you don't believe it has) doesn't mean that others out there aren't hurting. And if they want to get angry about that then so be it. I'm sure if you were pushed far enough you'd get angry too.
Human memory doesn't extend as far back to within a few days of being born and infant circumcision has not caused untold emotional or suffering or psychological damage unless you can somehow prove otherwise BEYOND THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT. All you and the the others who've responded to my posts is make statements about how you feel without any data at all other than "Why won't you just take my word for it?" typically followed by profanity.
@ChristianLayman Actually human memory extends all the way back and sometimes beyond. An adult may not Consciously remember being circumcised as an infant, but that does not mean it has not affected him, or that the event is not registered somewhere in his subconscious mind.
I can easily prove that infant circumcision has caused great emotional suffering. Just watch any of the videos made by unhappily circumcised men, or by dissenting nurses.
This is somewhat irrelevant as it is mostly an appeal to emotion. I can easily counter by telling you to watch videos of happily circumcised men or of approving medical authorities.
@ChristianLayman The subject that you were contending was untold emotional suffering. So we are discussing emotion. You claim that circumcision has not caused untold emotional suffering. Do you concede it has caused any emotional suffering? The fact that there are videos, not just comments and articles, but videos showing unhappy and angry men expressing their contempt, regret and pain at being circumcised just shows that circumcision does indeed cause emotional suffering.
@ChristianLayman Now the reason why I go a step further and say that it has caused untold emotional suffering is that if these are just the men with access to a computer and who can speak English and who are BRAVE enough to come out to themselves and millions of others with their true feelings on this matter, then you can only imagine how many more deeply unhappily circumcised men there must be out there. And this is to say nothing of all the babies that have died, all...
@ChristianLayman ...the parents who have lots children, and all the parents who have come to deeply regret their decisions to circumcise their children. This is to speak nothing of the nurses and doctors who have rejected the procedure on moral and ethical grounds, and on grounds of pure sanity and compassion. This is to speak nothing of the emotional pressure that many parents are under to conform to this procedure, for religious or secular reasons. Untold emotional suffering.
With regards to human memory, I may not have been clear, which I aim to correct now. It is certainly true that one may store information from their senses at an early age, but the ability to actively recollect an event from infancy, especially one so closely associated to being born and store that into long term memory and retain it well into adulthood is not possible, or to be more cautious, highly improbable.
@ChristianLayman I will restate my point: Even if a person does not CONSCIOUSLY recall being circumcised, (1) it does not mean that the event has not affected them. Such a traumatic event at such an early age no doubt affects the psyche in various ways forever. (2) it does not mean that at a subconscious level the memory is still not there, affecting emotions and decisions and behaviours. (3) it does not mean that what happened was right or okay.
@ChristianLayman In support (1) we know that circumcised babies have raised cortisol levels in their brain for up to six months following the procedure. We know that circumcision can affect breast-feeding and mother-child bonding. And we know that how a fetus, infant, and child is treated will have long-term psychological implications on the adult.
@ChristianLayman In support of (2) we know that adult men have recalled their infant circumcision while under hypnosis, and in many such cases this has provided answers to certain emotional problems they were experiencing.
And regards (3) if we drug a lady and then rape her whilst she is unconscious such that she does not remember it, does that make it okay? If we slap a baby because she will not remember it in ten years, does that make it okay? I would answer in the negative.
@ChristianLayman Also, read the stories about the children who have died (causing suffering to parents), and then men with botched jobs (which are more common than you would expect). Those botched jobs can range from aesthetic, sensory, and functional damage, to outright ablation of the penis. I suppose those kids who get their dicks chopped off don't suffer at all as adults.
@ChristianLayman There are records of children who have died from circumcision; you need only do a Google search to find some. And these are only deaths we know of or that are admitted. One study estimates approx. 117 deaths per year in the USA from neonatal circumcision.
As for botched jobs, you need only look at some internet porn. Being gay, I have seen my fair share of circumcised penises, and many of them are what I would consider botched, or at least very bad jobs.
@ChristianLayman Also there are records of severe botched jobs; again a simple Google search will suffice. Read some of these reports and you will never be the same again.
@ChristianLayman I'm not asking you to take my word on anything. Watch the videos. Read the articles. Do the research. Hear it from the horse's mouth: the same place I've heard it.
Personally I recommend going to the Center for Disease Control (CDC) and doing a quick search on Infant Circumcision. A great resource for all medical inquiries, and not just on something like this.
@ChristianLayman The CDC is an American political organisation. Their take on RIC is different from almost every other medical organisation in the world. I would suggest that this is because circumcision is a cultural norm in the USA, because many American doctors are Jewish, and because the CDC gets its funding from the government which is influenced by certain corporations and agendas.
@ChristianLayman You will notice there is no information on the CDC website regarding the ethics of RIC or the functions of the foreskin. Nor is there any recognition of the fact that no medical organisation in the world recommends RIC, or that the majority of countries that do not practice RIC do not have a serious HIV or STD problem. In other words they don't present the whole picture, not even close. This is extremely suspect.
Look, guy, don't take this wrong way, but I'm actually indifferent one way or the other with regards to infant circumcision, and let's face it, if you're fretting over something that was done to you before your memory has had time develop and harboring a grudge against your parents, you need to either man up or see a shrink. Getting circumcised as an infant isn't quite as traumatic as you think it is.
@ChristianLayman Man up and deny feelings? Cos men don't feel. They don't get emotional. And they certainly don't complain. So what if ten thousand nerve-receptors were stolen from you at birth. So what if you had penis reduction surgery without your consent. So what if you'll never experience what Nature intended and God created. You're a man so man up and shut up!
@ChristianLayman How was that comment in any way nonsensical? And I don't think you know what a "hissy fit" is :) You come across as the typical repressed man in denial who judges any expression of emotion in another man. This is not healthy or mature.
It is nonsensical in that you're reacting very strongly with emotion and just more or less blasted on in here by posting an outburst rather than calmly analyze the opposition and and calmly post a counterpoint that is well constructed and thought out. By the manner in how you've phrased your posts, you come off as a partisan with one's mind made up with little real interest in a rational discussion and more interested in senseless arguing.
@ChristianLayman So emotion is nonsense? There is really no emotion in here at all. There is just words. Either my points and arguments make sense or they do not. Whether an argument is made with emotion or not has no bearing on the veracity and validity of the argument itself. This is elementary logic.
There is no doubt that my mind is made up on this issue. But again that has no bearing on the veracity or validity of my points. My arguments are either valid or not.
Unfortuntately, most of the other posters here that responded to my initial comment (which wasn't directed at anyone specific) have reacted in a similar, if not in a more emotionally charged way, complete with lashing out at any who dare to hold an opinion or viewpoint different to theirs no matter how extreme or non-extreme that deviation might be. By definition, this is a "hissy fit" otherwise known as a temper tantrum if that works better.
@ChristianLayman A temper tantrum occurs when you don't get what you want and you act in an immature way. But I don't want anything from you. If you believe that emotion is nonsense then don't entertain or use emotion. If you want to engage in an argument you will have to raise and respond to points. This is all that is required. Nothing else is relevant.
@ChristianLayman If you don't understand why circumcision is such a controversial and emotionally charged issue then you don't understanding anything about the real issue at all. Everything you have said just goes to support my assertion that you are emotionally repressed and possibly also in denial. Someone in that situation cannot understand emotion and does not like emotion expressed from others. But if you don't understand emotion then you will never understand circumcision.
Perhaps with your behaviour in comparison with the others, it might seem if I exaggerated, but I would still stand by this. In any event, it is quite clear that this has turned more into an (pardon the phrase) "ego-pissing contest" than a meaningful dialog.
@ChristianLayman Well, that is your call to make. I think I have raised some very important points. You can either choose to respond to those points or you can choose to leave. Up to you.
@ChristianLayman Real men acknowledge their feelings and seek out the truth. They question tradition and stand up for their principles. They fight for what is right. They protect children and care about others. They say: No Sir, you're not going to do that to MY son! Not on my watch. That's called character, and that's the stuff that real men are made of.
@ChristianLayman Truth is whatever happens to be actually and factually the case. What is right is up to the individual to define for themselves. And I don't mention the word "good" in that comment.
You're right, you didn't mention "good". Perhaps it was redundant on my part to have put that in there, but I was more interested in finding out whether you and I have a common reference point to work from, and from the definitions you gave for "right" and "truth", I see we do not. At this point further dialog is pointless and unproductive.
@ChristianLayman I am not a Christian so my take on truth and goodness will no doubt differ from your own. However, the definition I gave of truth above is a pretty standard dictionary answer, and I simply made a truistic comment regarding the definition of what is "right", because everyone does indeed determine that for themselves. Even if you are accepting someone else's definition (as religionists do) then you are still choosing to accept their definition as your own.
@ChristianLayman It's not up to the parents to decide regarding their girls. It is a cultural issue, like many things are, but that doesn't make it a good thing. Cutting off the most sensitive part of a baby's genitals after birth and without anaesthetic is perhaps the most damaging and barbaric thing we could do to such a one. If this is how we treat the least among us then no wonder we are at each others' throats.
@loveunderlaw You put question mark after a statement. YEAH I'M THE FOOL. You're blowing something so stupid way out of proportion. How about you spend this much time and effort paying off your credit cards.
@cwood4ever I don't care for loveunderlaw's dramatics, but I am curious if you really consider human rights a "stupid" issue? The reason I ask that is because that is what this focus on circumcision is about- the rights of future adults.
@DetestableCrabmeat Its the right of the parent to chose whats best for their son, Cutting off the boys foreskin wont affect him like lib tards claim. Its just a piece of skin on the tip of the penis. Its not like female circumcision where it will actually affect them. I cut circumcised and I am perfectly 100% fine, my wife doesn't mind it. No one was hurt by it. There are 1000s more things we should be worried about than this dumb issue. National Debt, failing public schools
@cwood4ever Parents don't have the rights to cut off any other part of the body, so why the foreskin? Also, how can you say that removing the foreskin has no effect on a child when it contains the most sensitive nerve endings in the penis? Furthermore, I don't know how you can consider this a "dumb issue" when children are losing a normal part of their anatomy and even dying from this.
@DetestableCrabmeat parents do have a right and the government better stay away from thus issue. Its none of their business or yours if they want their kids foreskin cut off. Its been done for thousands of years and it prevents infections. How about you stop being an ass clown and stand up for babies for real and stop abortion. cutting off the foreskin of a penis vs murdering unborn children. Which is worse?
@cwood4ever But that's just the thing: parents DON'T have the right to remove any other part of the body aside from a boy's foreskin- try to take off one of your kid's fingers and you'll be locked up, and yet having part of a boy's penis amputated is somehow a-okay. How does this make sense, and how is a boy's foreskin anybody's business but the boy's? Also, just because it's been done for a long time doesn't make it right, and the possibility of infection is no excuse to destroy a body part.
@cwood4ever That's really a terrible way of looking at this matter. Why treat it as an either/or? One can be against abortion and the mutilation of another person's penis. I find it more than a bit curious that anti-abortion advocates argue that a fetus is a separate person, a separate body with a right to life... only then surgically remove an extremely tender and natural part of the baby's most private and personal of human body parts. It is ethically schizophrenic.
@paleocrat Anti-abortion advocates are not pro-life. They are all for the rights of the unborn, but once you're born, you're on your own. They don't care about you then. They certainly won't adopt any babies to save them from abortion. They could care less about the suffering of others. And of course why do we need more babies? So we can have more soldiers to send out to more wars to kill more children. That's pro-life for you.
@cwood4ever I see absolutely no reason why any parent in a civilized society should be permitted to circumcise anyone but themselves. It is not their body. It is not their penis. There is no retraction or redo or this matter. When it's done, it's done. It is remarkable, also, that so many Intelligent Design advocates act as if their god made a big mistake by creating male penises this way, requiring a surgical procedure to remedy! Penises = unintelligent design? Craziness.
@cwood4ever The government already forbids circumcising girls. The foreskin is the business of the owner of the penis, not of the parents or the doctors.
Lots of messed up sh** has been done for thousands of years. Much of it is now illegal or considered barbaric.
Circumcision doesn't prevent infections. In fact it often causes them.
How many babies have you adopted to save from abortion?
@DetestableCrabmeat He's a part of the problem, & not the solution because he's unwilling to say his mutilators were wrong for what was done to him as a child.
@cwood4ever Just because you're fine with being mutilated as a child DOESN'T mean the rest of us thinking adults aren't mad as Hell because something was done to us at a tender time in our lives when we had NO say in the matter! It is just another form of rape IMO.
@cwood4ever You just don't know what it would be like if you had all your penis. You only have 100% of what you have now, not what you might have had. And there is is ALWAYS something more important. That's not an argument.
@Hugh7777 Dude Im so done with this argument, get a fucking life. There are a million things you should be doing than worrying what parents will do with their kids dicks. I dont care what you have to say, youre a fucking loser get a life.
@cwood4ever It's illegal to remove the prepuce of a little girl. It's illegal to even prick her clitoris with a pin. And you are saying that removing the most sensitive part of a neonate's penis, without anaesthetic, won't affect him physically or psychologically or emotionally or sexually? You don't know whether circumcision affected you or not.
@cwood4ever If you are so worried about National Debt then you might consider removing infant male circumcision from Medicaid funding. Instead of using your tax dollars to pay for people to mutilate their son's genitals, that money could be better spent in other ways. And if you really care about your country then I hope you will be voting for Ron Paul.
@cwood4ever How is it that parents know what is medically best for their son? Don't parents pay doctors (who study for years) to tell them that? And why is it not the right of the parent to decide if they want to circumcise their baby girls? Why isn't it the right of parents to ask a doctor to cut off or out any other healthy part of their son's body?
The eyelids are just pieces of skin on the eyes. Should we cut them off too?
@cwood4ever I'm unsure why you would conclude that anyone interested in this issue - such as me - wouldn't have interest in things such as our banking and credit system, our tax code or any such matter related to the political economy. This is one ten-minute segment from a talk radio program that runs two hours each weekday. It just seems awfully presumptuous on your part. I see no reason for it, really.
@cwood4ever First of all, according to Christianity, Jesus Christ made jewish circumcision redundant. Second of all, it's not a flap, it's a tube. Third of all, in an average adult male the foreskin measures approximately 15 square inches, so not so little; in fact it's up to half the penile shaft skin. And finally, cut your own off if you want but leave other people's penises alone!
The body is the subconscious. It NEVER forgets this assault. When we throw our children into terror, they are imprinted with it forever after. We have bestowed a form of PTSD on them. This is a "gift" that keeps on giving - and it's not a blessing to them.
Most people in the US do not know that when female circumcision (FGM) was legal, MDs were compensated by Blue Cross Blue Shield for clitoriedectomies. They did it to me. I am adamantly opposed to circumcision of boys. Protect children!
If you read "The Book of J", which is the original history of the jewish people, you will find no reference to the abraham circumcision story. no covenant based on circumcision.
@Childinfaith - you have the right to your opinion. What you don't seem to understand is that this issue isn't about whether or not you or anyone thinks that a foreskin looks attractive. People have the right to refuse amputation of their healthy body parts regardless of other's opinions about how they look. What would you say if your mother had decided to amputate your sister's labia because she didn't like the look of them?
@Childinfaith For you personally, I'm glad everything worked out for you. Unfortunately, you aren't the only person in the world, and many people don't agree with you. We are in a situation where both of us were essentially raped and assaulted as infants (sexual contact without consent is rape, and inflicting bodily harm is assault), but you didn't mind, and I do. I think we can all agree, that just because you didn't mind in the end, that the rape is any less bad.
@Childinfaith I've been shown pictures of what it looks like to be circumcised and looking at that exposed, dried up, wrinkled, callous glans I have to say I'd rather not be among those photos.
@Childinfaith I'm curious to know how this doesn't affect one's view of Intelligent Design. It would seem, from the beginning, that the designer was terribly unintelligent, horribly designing the male penis with nerves, skin, glands, etc. I presume if it was left to ritual by requirement, such argument from design may be salvaged. As it stands, it's just because "we were born with a bad design... one that needs remedied with a rather curious surgical procedure." This is terribly telling.
@Childinfaith Additionally, why do anti-abortion advocates rely so heavily upon arguments against parental choice, only then to insist upon it within hours of 1/2 the human population being born? One cannot do anything to the dignity of the body and life while it's connected, dependent almost entirely upon the mother... but may (and even should!) do something to the integrity and design of the baby's penis shortly after birth? Terribly inconsistent, even arguably mischievous.
@Childinfaith You like what you're used to. If you'd grown up intact, you'd almost certainly prefer that (especially for how it works!). It's not a "conspiracy" except that until very recently it was a conspiracy of silence. US doctors are still not taught anything about the foreskin except how to cut it off, and even anatomy textbooks show circumcised penises as normal.
Forced genital cutting of children is sexual abuse and medical fraud. When this abuse is forced upon children they generally grow up believing the bullshit that accompanies this cutting. Like other forms of child abuse the victims unwittingly pass it on to their own children.
Fortunately people are waking up to this atrocity and more are protecting children from this abuse.
Regardless of her opinion on this matter, Heather Bannister (and all other women) should submit to her husband's wishes in this matter - even if she insists on ruling over him in all other aspects of their life and marriage. She is not a man, does not have a penis, and should shut up and listen to her man.
@pilgrim831 Really? I was unsure if or how I should reply to this remark. It isn't an argument, and it's terribly chauvinistic... sentiments echoing from but a moment's crawl out of the primordial soup. Sadly, even if this doesn't reflect your own sentiments on the matter, it most certainly reflects the internal disposition and visible expression of a great many conservative religionists... all quite slow to evolve beyond the cave-dwelling club-wielding neanderthal.
@pilgrim831 Almost any woman has something no circumcised man has - intact genitalia. How would she like to be without any part of them? And how would she like to have been deprived of any part of them, whether for custom, for "hygiene", for fear of teasing, or to look like her mother? What circumcised man can say with any knowledge what his son would wish as a man concerning his own foreskin?
If circumcision was not already part of the culture, it would never be allowed legally in our society. Even as part of a religious ceremony. We would especially probably not allow a non medical person to perform the operation. It is genital mutilation.
@owheydusoapsk Circumcision of infants boys, and girls is MUTILATION! Let people decide what they want to do with THEIR own fucking bodies! If someone wants to get circumcised when they're old enough to understand what they're going to be losing out on, then it's their decision. But to circumcise ANY infant boy or girl, is PURE evil, & must be prevented at all cost. Anyone circumcising perfectly healthy infants is guilty of a CRIME, & needs to have their eyelids ripped off as punishment!!!
@owheydusoapsk From my Facebook page: Were we to transport ourselves from this time and space, severing ourselves from a culture inundated with Western religiosity (which I believe is central to the prevalence and general acceptability of modern circumcision), having no religious bias toward preserving such a ritual, lacking any and all cultural tradition of such a procedure and, given it's hypothetical non-existence, experiencing no peer-pressure from anyone ever having endured it... CONT
@owheydusoapsk CONT... the idea that we would, with our modern sense and sensibilities, embrace or even permit such a procedure is absolutely absurd.
The context of this was a hypothetical instance wherein parent's argued tattooing penis within the first two days of birth as a right protected by a) freedom of religion and b) the idea that parents are endowed with authority to make such a decision on behalf of their baby boys. Absurd, no doubt... as was very much the point.
"but he that is a Jew in hid, and the circumcision of heart, in spirit, not by the letter [not in letter], whose praising is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:29)
Circumcision is of the Judaizers, anyone arguing for it from a Christian perspective is a heretic and a liar. And yes, there is no health benefit to it, that was not the intention of it when it was instituted in the Old Testament.
@hellsunicorn Why do you think so many of us that were formerly X-tians are now either Pagans, or Atheists? The God of the Christians, Muslims, & Jews is bloodthirsty. Circumcision is just another form of sacrifrice to that "God"...
@loveunderlaw You're either Pagans or Atheists because you're either uninformed or bitter at your heretic parents. Christianity as a covenant never endorsed circumcision until Judaizers started infiltrating it, and it is denounced clearly right in Paul's Epistles. Research actual historians instead of the bloated cadaver Christopher Hitchens' drivel and you might learn something.
@hellsunicorn Dunno about "judaizers". The first christians - starting , or so the bible says, with Jesus - were Jews. Paul denounced circumcision because potential Greek converts wouldn't have a bar of it.
@loveunderlaw Furthermore, unlike Judaism which only had one instance where a sacrifice could have, but did not occur, most vile Pagan religions from Rome to the Nordic Nations celebrated human sacrifice and bloodletting sports. And as for Atheists, I can point to the genocide in Eastern Europe and China as prime examples of how godlessness is just as hospitable to eradicating its enemies as any other view on the matter.
@hellsunicorn If human sacrifice did not occur in Ur, why do you think Abraham (if he ever lived, if there is any truth to the story at all) was so willing to do it? Maybe YHWH was only testing with circumcision too, but Abraham wasn't listening....
@hellsunicorn The Jews may not have been big on human sacrifice (though it does seem like that they practiced child sacrifice at some point), but they sure loved to sacrifice animals. And they certainly had no qualms about killing people, even their own women and children. As for Christians, remember the Crusades? The Inquisition? No one in blameless here, so stop trying to pretend that you are superior to the rest of us.
@endofscene I'm not a Jew, so this argument is falling flat. Furthermore, the only person claiming to be superior is the moron I was responding to. Kindly read the entire conversation before running your mouth again and stop acting as though you are telling me something I don't already know.
P.S. - The Jews who practiced child sacrifice to Moloch and Baal were destroyed by the prophets, and it seems you are equating animals with people, which is ridiculous.
@hellsunicorn I know you're not a Jew. But you were defending Judaism in one comment on the basis of it not performing human sacrifice, despite the fact that you call Jews "Judaizers" in your other comments. I did read the entire conversation and it is obvious you don't like Jews (or an non-Christians), but decided to defend Judaism in one instance on account of it being the monotheistic heritage of Christianity.
@endofscene Ouch, already calling me an anti-Semite. Thin skinned much? Newsflash, you can think people are wrong and still like them. You're not really fairing well in the intelligence category here sweetie pie, might want to consider that before posting again.
@hellsunicorn I didn't call you an anti-semite. But your use of the word "Judaizer" is suspicious. I don't care whether you like Jews or not. However, like many Christians (particularly of the American variety), you seem to be very arrogant and aggressive, without much love or compassion. I pity you.
@endofscene Save your pity for the starving children of the world, and if you're feeling really industrious, donate to a charity rather than wasting your time trying to convince me I'm in the wrong here, which you are clearly failing at.
@hellsunicorn The starving children that God won't help? According to your religion they are going to heaven anyway, right? I'm not going to try and convince you of anything as that would be impossible. You are far too stubborn and strong-willed for that. But I do like to respond to comments for the sake of other readers of the thread.
@hellsunicorn In terms of animals being sentient creatures that feel pain and experience fear, yes I would definitely equate them with humans. And most animals tend to act with more consistency and integrity than many humans, so I see no reason for us to consider ourselves a higher form of life, particularly when we are destroying the whole system of life as we know it.
@endofscene Ah, so you're one of those Gaia cult types, my apologies, I was about to lump you in with the usual troll turds I encounter from atheistkult. Suffice to say, I eat meat and I'm not ashamed, sorry about that.
@hellsunicorn I'm not a vegetarian and I don't care what you eat. You like labels, don't you? :) Less judgement and more understanding goes a long way to becoming a better person and creating less suffering. I believe this was the core of Jesus' teaching: to love one another. I wish you well.
@endofscene Jesus' love was to a particular people that were chosen in a gratuitous fashion by God the father, he also showed hatred and intolerance to others such as the Pharisees, I suggest reading more of the bible than just a few select passages in the Gospel Of John. And thank you for the well wishes, you were beginning to bore me so I was planning to cease conversation with you anyway.
@hellsunicorn lol Now there's a new one: Jesus' love was conditional and provincial. Right. Love one another? Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you? Jesus did not hate the Pharisees, he simply called them on their hypocrisy and "sin" (error). Jesus killed no one. He rejected no one. He talked with the Pharisees and Sadducees who approached him. He accepted one and all, and healed the sinners. And then he supposedly suffered and died for all humanity.
Well I was told by a Christian turned secular humanist that the reason he became an atheist is because he didn't like being told that masturbation was morally wrong. I assume that this along with all other complete rejections of sexual morality is why former "X-tians" become Pagans or Heathens.
As for circumcision, the circumcision of the flesh was to be a sign or a symbol of the covenant between Abraham and God. It is circumcision of the heart that is desired.
Christianity does not require circumcision! Jews circumcise! Muslims circumcise! She says she reads the Bible and yet doesn't quote from the New Testament when asked about religion. This is ridiculous. These Christians don't even know their own religion. It is the USA or the JewSA? Come on, people. Talk about not knowing your religion.
endofscene 1 month ago
Being "indifferent about infant circumcision" is like being indifferent about the child rape occuring at Penn State. We're talking about children being violently sexually assaulted and mutilated. Snap out of it.
parkwoodlounge 1 month ago
I kind of feel that a quest to end circumcision is absurd, or more accurately, that some of the reactions are a bit more intense than what reason calls for unless the Judaizers have somehow come back into full force and are arguing that firstborn males need their foreskin cut off in order to be saved.
I see this as nothing more than a cultural issue rather than a religious one (as long as there are no Judaizers that is) and should be up for the parents to decide.
ChristianLayman 2 months ago
@ChristianLayman It's NOT absurd to the people that DIDN'T want to be circumcised in the first place! Weirdo baby mutilators need to leave babies bodies alone, it's NOT your fucking body!!!
loveunderlaw 2 months ago 2
@loveunderlaw
Yeah, I can see that your emotional, profanity-laced rant is a reflection of someone that uses "love" in his screen name. If you're bitter over something so inconsequential and going to hold a grudge against your parents for it, then it's time to grow up and be a man and move on with your life. Good grief, you've got all the accusatory, venom-filled hatred of the most ardent Fundamentalist nut. If you wish to be taken seriously, learn to articulate calmly.
ChristianLayman 2 months ago
@ChristianLayman I DON'T give a FUCK about you mutilators, or your worthless opinions! Now go find yourself a train, & jump in FRONT of it, you fucking waste of life!!!
loveunderlaw 1 month ago
@loveunderlaw
Ah, so the truth rears its ugly head at last. You accuse all the monotheists of mass murder, but then scream and rage in a manner befitting a spoiled brat and proceed to wish death upon a brother of the human race. And here I thought atheism was the "world-view of peace". If you believe that, then you're going to have to do better than what you've posted.
I pray to God that you're able to find the strength to overcome whatever is really depressing you.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman I'm NOT an Atheist you stupid fuck, I'm Luciferian. Why don't you try reading once in a while, it WON'T harm you after all you ignorant P.O.S.
loveunderlaw 1 month ago
@loveunderlaw
Wait, if you're a Luciferian, wouldn't you actually want the monotheists to keep killing people? I mean, with the weapons we have now, your precious Kingdom of Hell is just a thermo-nuclear blast away! I would think wanton bloodshed and destruction would then therefore be something you would applaud the monotheists to continue with. Ah, new atheists are such an interesting breed.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
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@ChristianLayman Wait, if you're a Luciferian, wouldn't you actually want the monotheists to keep killing people? I mean, with the weapons we have now, your precious Kingdom of Hell is just a thermo-nuclear blast away! I would think wanton bloodshed and destruction would then therefore be something you would applaud the monotheists to continue with. Ah, new atheists are such an interesting breed.
loveunderlaw 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman It's no "inconsequential" when there are complications (up to and including death) and even a tiny mistake - or even if it's done "correctly" - can have terrible effects on a man's sexual functioning. But even if he just resents not having the choice, that's legitimate too.
Hugh7777 1 month ago
@Hugh7777
Most of these consequences hover are extremely rare, and then you negate the positive health benefits of circumcision. Yes, I listened to the video interview. I also visited the CDC as well.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman You are in no position to know how common or rare negative consequences are. And there are no health benefits to removing healthy functional tissue.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
And I should go along with your claims because you have what credentials in the medical community? Good grief, this is exactly how the Fundamentalists argue; not with fact, but with emotional hissy fits when someone dares to challenge their "authority". I reject you for the same reason I reject them.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman Please explain the health benefits of removing healthy functional tissue. To me my statement is truistic.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman Pleasure and pain are not inconsequential. They matter. How about you man up and come out of your denial.
This is a highly emotional issue. It has caused untold suffering. Just because it hasn't affected you (or you don't believe it has) doesn't mean that others out there aren't hurting. And if they want to get angry about that then so be it. I'm sure if you were pushed far enough you'd get angry too.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
Human memory doesn't extend as far back to within a few days of being born and infant circumcision has not caused untold emotional or suffering or psychological damage unless you can somehow prove otherwise BEYOND THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT. All you and the the others who've responded to my posts is make statements about how you feel without any data at all other than "Why won't you just take my word for it?" typically followed by profanity.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman Actually human memory extends all the way back and sometimes beyond. An adult may not Consciously remember being circumcised as an infant, but that does not mean it has not affected him, or that the event is not registered somewhere in his subconscious mind.
I can easily prove that infant circumcision has caused great emotional suffering. Just watch any of the videos made by unhappily circumcised men, or by dissenting nurses.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
This is somewhat irrelevant as it is mostly an appeal to emotion. I can easily counter by telling you to watch videos of happily circumcised men or of approving medical authorities.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman The subject that you were contending was untold emotional suffering. So we are discussing emotion. You claim that circumcision has not caused untold emotional suffering. Do you concede it has caused any emotional suffering? The fact that there are videos, not just comments and articles, but videos showing unhappy and angry men expressing their contempt, regret and pain at being circumcised just shows that circumcision does indeed cause emotional suffering.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman Now the reason why I go a step further and say that it has caused untold emotional suffering is that if these are just the men with access to a computer and who can speak English and who are BRAVE enough to come out to themselves and millions of others with their true feelings on this matter, then you can only imagine how many more deeply unhappily circumcised men there must be out there. And this is to say nothing of all the babies that have died, all...
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman ...the parents who have lots children, and all the parents who have come to deeply regret their decisions to circumcise their children. This is to speak nothing of the nurses and doctors who have rejected the procedure on moral and ethical grounds, and on grounds of pure sanity and compassion. This is to speak nothing of the emotional pressure that many parents are under to conform to this procedure, for religious or secular reasons. Untold emotional suffering.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
With regards to human memory, I may not have been clear, which I aim to correct now. It is certainly true that one may store information from their senses at an early age, but the ability to actively recollect an event from infancy, especially one so closely associated to being born and store that into long term memory and retain it well into adulthood is not possible, or to be more cautious, highly improbable.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman I will restate my point: Even if a person does not CONSCIOUSLY recall being circumcised, (1) it does not mean that the event has not affected them. Such a traumatic event at such an early age no doubt affects the psyche in various ways forever. (2) it does not mean that at a subconscious level the memory is still not there, affecting emotions and decisions and behaviours. (3) it does not mean that what happened was right or okay.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman In support (1) we know that circumcised babies have raised cortisol levels in their brain for up to six months following the procedure. We know that circumcision can affect breast-feeding and mother-child bonding. And we know that how a fetus, infant, and child is treated will have long-term psychological implications on the adult.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman In support of (2) we know that adult men have recalled their infant circumcision while under hypnosis, and in many such cases this has provided answers to certain emotional problems they were experiencing.
And regards (3) if we drug a lady and then rape her whilst she is unconscious such that she does not remember it, does that make it okay? If we slap a baby because she will not remember it in ten years, does that make it okay? I would answer in the negative.
endofscene 1 month ago 2
@ChristianLayman Also, read the stories about the children who have died (causing suffering to parents), and then men with botched jobs (which are more common than you would expect). Those botched jobs can range from aesthetic, sensory, and functional damage, to outright ablation of the penis. I suppose those kids who get their dicks chopped off don't suffer at all as adults.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
Forgive me, but from what valid medical resources are you obtaining your information from?
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman There are records of children who have died from circumcision; you need only do a Google search to find some. And these are only deaths we know of or that are admitted. One study estimates approx. 117 deaths per year in the USA from neonatal circumcision.
As for botched jobs, you need only look at some internet porn. Being gay, I have seen my fair share of circumcised penises, and many of them are what I would consider botched, or at least very bad jobs.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman Also there are records of severe botched jobs; again a simple Google search will suffice. Read some of these reports and you will never be the same again.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman I'm not asking you to take my word on anything. Watch the videos. Read the articles. Do the research. Hear it from the horse's mouth: the same place I've heard it.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
Personally I recommend going to the Center for Disease Control (CDC) and doing a quick search on Infant Circumcision. A great resource for all medical inquiries, and not just on something like this.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman The CDC is an American political organisation. Their take on RIC is different from almost every other medical organisation in the world. I would suggest that this is because circumcision is a cultural norm in the USA, because many American doctors are Jewish, and because the CDC gets its funding from the government which is influenced by certain corporations and agendas.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman You will notice there is no information on the CDC website regarding the ethics of RIC or the functions of the foreskin. Nor is there any recognition of the fact that no medical organisation in the world recommends RIC, or that the majority of countries that do not practice RIC do not have a serious HIV or STD problem. In other words they don't present the whole picture, not even close. This is extremely suspect.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman It should be up to the penis's OWNER, the person most directly concerned, in fact the ONLY person directly concerned, to decide.
Hugh7777 1 month ago
@Hugh7777
Look, guy, don't take this wrong way, but I'm actually indifferent one way or the other with regards to infant circumcision, and let's face it, if you're fretting over something that was done to you before your memory has had time develop and harboring a grudge against your parents, you need to either man up or see a shrink. Getting circumcised as an infant isn't quite as traumatic as you think it is.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman Man up and deny feelings? Cos men don't feel. They don't get emotional. And they certainly don't complain. So what if ten thousand nerve-receptors were stolen from you at birth. So what if you had penis reduction surgery without your consent. So what if you'll never experience what Nature intended and God created. You're a man so man up and shut up!
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
Again, nonsensical emotional hissy fit.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman How was that comment in any way nonsensical? And I don't think you know what a "hissy fit" is :) You come across as the typical repressed man in denial who judges any expression of emotion in another man. This is not healthy or mature.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
It is nonsensical in that you're reacting very strongly with emotion and just more or less blasted on in here by posting an outburst rather than calmly analyze the opposition and and calmly post a counterpoint that is well constructed and thought out. By the manner in how you've phrased your posts, you come off as a partisan with one's mind made up with little real interest in a rational discussion and more interested in senseless arguing.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman So emotion is nonsense? There is really no emotion in here at all. There is just words. Either my points and arguments make sense or they do not. Whether an argument is made with emotion or not has no bearing on the veracity and validity of the argument itself. This is elementary logic.
There is no doubt that my mind is made up on this issue. But again that has no bearing on the veracity or validity of my points. My arguments are either valid or not.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
Unfortuntately, most of the other posters here that responded to my initial comment (which wasn't directed at anyone specific) have reacted in a similar, if not in a more emotionally charged way, complete with lashing out at any who dare to hold an opinion or viewpoint different to theirs no matter how extreme or non-extreme that deviation might be. By definition, this is a "hissy fit" otherwise known as a temper tantrum if that works better.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman A temper tantrum occurs when you don't get what you want and you act in an immature way. But I don't want anything from you. If you believe that emotion is nonsense then don't entertain or use emotion. If you want to engage in an argument you will have to raise and respond to points. This is all that is required. Nothing else is relevant.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman If you don't understand why circumcision is such a controversial and emotionally charged issue then you don't understanding anything about the real issue at all. Everything you have said just goes to support my assertion that you are emotionally repressed and possibly also in denial. Someone in that situation cannot understand emotion and does not like emotion expressed from others. But if you don't understand emotion then you will never understand circumcision.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
Perhaps with your behaviour in comparison with the others, it might seem if I exaggerated, but I would still stand by this. In any event, it is quite clear that this has turned more into an (pardon the phrase) "ego-pissing contest" than a meaningful dialog.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman Well, that is your call to make. I think I have raised some very important points. You can either choose to respond to those points or you can choose to leave. Up to you.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman Real men acknowledge their feelings and seek out the truth. They question tradition and stand up for their principles. They fight for what is right. They protect children and care about others. They say: No Sir, you're not going to do that to MY son! Not on my watch. That's called character, and that's the stuff that real men are made of.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
Please give definitions for the following:
Good
Right
Truth
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman Truth is whatever happens to be actually and factually the case. What is right is up to the individual to define for themselves. And I don't mention the word "good" in that comment.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
You're right, you didn't mention "good". Perhaps it was redundant on my part to have put that in there, but I was more interested in finding out whether you and I have a common reference point to work from, and from the definitions you gave for "right" and "truth", I see we do not. At this point further dialog is pointless and unproductive.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman I am not a Christian so my take on truth and goodness will no doubt differ from your own. However, the definition I gave of truth above is a pretty standard dictionary answer, and I simply made a truistic comment regarding the definition of what is "right", because everyone does indeed determine that for themselves. Even if you are accepting someone else's definition (as religionists do) then you are still choosing to accept their definition as your own.
endofscene 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman It's not up to the parents to decide regarding their girls. It is a cultural issue, like many things are, but that doesn't make it a good thing. Cutting off the most sensitive part of a baby's genitals after birth and without anaesthetic is perhaps the most damaging and barbaric thing we could do to such a one. If this is how we treat the least among us then no wonder we are at each others' throats.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene
Actually murdering your child in the womb is the most barbaric thing you can do, followed by killing off the defenseless.
ChristianLayman 1 month ago
@ChristianLayman But cutting off part of a baby's healthy genital organs, usually without any anaesthetic, is not barbaric?
endofscene 1 month ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Jesus Christ people its a little flap of skin on my dick. Its not a big deal just cut the fucker off.
cwood4ever 2 months ago in playlist Genital Integrity
@cwood4ever But it's not just "a little flap of skin". Not by a long shot.
DetestableCrabmeat 2 months ago in playlist Genital Integrity 3
@cwood4ever Why are you such an ignorant FOOL?!
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
@loveunderlaw You put question mark after a statement. YEAH I'M THE FOOL. You're blowing something so stupid way out of proportion. How about you spend this much time and effort paying off your credit cards.
cwood4ever 2 months ago
@cwood4ever You've been so conditioned by the controllers you're incapable of thinking on your own Two feet, Pathetic,,,
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
@cwood4ever I don't care for loveunderlaw's dramatics, but I am curious if you really consider human rights a "stupid" issue? The reason I ask that is because that is what this focus on circumcision is about- the rights of future adults.
DetestableCrabmeat 2 months ago 2
@DetestableCrabmeat Its the right of the parent to chose whats best for their son, Cutting off the boys foreskin wont affect him like lib tards claim. Its just a piece of skin on the tip of the penis. Its not like female circumcision where it will actually affect them. I cut circumcised and I am perfectly 100% fine, my wife doesn't mind it. No one was hurt by it. There are 1000s more things we should be worried about than this dumb issue. National Debt, failing public schools
cwood4ever 2 months ago
@cwood4ever Parents don't have the rights to cut off any other part of the body, so why the foreskin? Also, how can you say that removing the foreskin has no effect on a child when it contains the most sensitive nerve endings in the penis? Furthermore, I don't know how you can consider this a "dumb issue" when children are losing a normal part of their anatomy and even dying from this.
DetestableCrabmeat 2 months ago 6
@DetestableCrabmeat parents do have a right and the government better stay away from thus issue. Its none of their business or yours if they want their kids foreskin cut off. Its been done for thousands of years and it prevents infections. How about you stop being an ass clown and stand up for babies for real and stop abortion. cutting off the foreskin of a penis vs murdering unborn children. Which is worse?
cwood4ever 2 months ago
@cwood4ever But that's just the thing: parents DON'T have the right to remove any other part of the body aside from a boy's foreskin- try to take off one of your kid's fingers and you'll be locked up, and yet having part of a boy's penis amputated is somehow a-okay. How does this make sense, and how is a boy's foreskin anybody's business but the boy's? Also, just because it's been done for a long time doesn't make it right, and the possibility of infection is no excuse to destroy a body part.
DetestableCrabmeat 2 months ago 2
@cwood4ever That's really a terrible way of looking at this matter. Why treat it as an either/or? One can be against abortion and the mutilation of another person's penis. I find it more than a bit curious that anti-abortion advocates argue that a fetus is a separate person, a separate body with a right to life... only then surgically remove an extremely tender and natural part of the baby's most private and personal of human body parts. It is ethically schizophrenic.
paleocrat 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@paleocrat Anti-abortion advocates are not pro-life. They are all for the rights of the unborn, but once you're born, you're on your own. They don't care about you then. They certainly won't adopt any babies to save them from abortion. They could care less about the suffering of others. And of course why do we need more babies? So we can have more soldiers to send out to more wars to kill more children. That's pro-life for you.
endofscene 1 month ago
@cwood4ever I see absolutely no reason why any parent in a civilized society should be permitted to circumcise anyone but themselves. It is not their body. It is not their penis. There is no retraction or redo or this matter. When it's done, it's done. It is remarkable, also, that so many Intelligent Design advocates act as if their god made a big mistake by creating male penises this way, requiring a surgical procedure to remedy! Penises = unintelligent design? Craziness.
paleocrat 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos 3
@cwood4ever The government already forbids circumcising girls. The foreskin is the business of the owner of the penis, not of the parents or the doctors.
Lots of messed up sh** has been done for thousands of years. Much of it is now illegal or considered barbaric.
Circumcision doesn't prevent infections. In fact it often causes them.
How many babies have you adopted to save from abortion?
endofscene 1 month ago
@DetestableCrabmeat He's a part of the problem, & not the solution because he's unwilling to say his mutilators were wrong for what was done to him as a child.
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
@cwood4ever Just because you're fine with being mutilated as a child DOESN'T mean the rest of us thinking adults aren't mad as Hell because something was done to us at a tender time in our lives when we had NO say in the matter! It is just another form of rape IMO.
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
@cwood4ever You just don't know what it would be like if you had all your penis. You only have 100% of what you have now, not what you might have had. And there is is ALWAYS something more important. That's not an argument.
Hugh7777 1 month ago
@Hugh7777 Dude Im so done with this argument, get a fucking life. There are a million things you should be doing than worrying what parents will do with their kids dicks. I dont care what you have to say, youre a fucking loser get a life.
cwood4ever 1 month ago
@cwood4ever It's illegal to remove the prepuce of a little girl. It's illegal to even prick her clitoris with a pin. And you are saying that removing the most sensitive part of a neonate's penis, without anaesthetic, won't affect him physically or psychologically or emotionally or sexually? You don't know whether circumcision affected you or not.
endofscene 1 month ago
@cwood4ever If you are so worried about National Debt then you might consider removing infant male circumcision from Medicaid funding. Instead of using your tax dollars to pay for people to mutilate their son's genitals, that money could be better spent in other ways. And if you really care about your country then I hope you will be voting for Ron Paul.
endofscene 1 month ago
@cwood4ever How is it that parents know what is medically best for their son? Don't parents pay doctors (who study for years) to tell them that? And why is it not the right of the parent to decide if they want to circumcise their baby girls? Why isn't it the right of parents to ask a doctor to cut off or out any other healthy part of their son's body?
The eyelids are just pieces of skin on the eyes. Should we cut them off too?
endofscene 1 month ago
@cwood4ever I'm unsure why you would conclude that anyone interested in this issue - such as me - wouldn't have interest in things such as our banking and credit system, our tax code or any such matter related to the political economy. This is one ten-minute segment from a talk radio program that runs two hours each weekday. It just seems awfully presumptuous on your part. I see no reason for it, really.
paleocrat 2 months ago
@cwood4ever First of all, according to Christianity, Jesus Christ made jewish circumcision redundant. Second of all, it's not a flap, it's a tube. Third of all, in an average adult male the foreskin measures approximately 15 square inches, so not so little; in fact it's up to half the penile shaft skin. And finally, cut your own off if you want but leave other people's penises alone!
endofscene 1 month ago
The body is the subconscious. It NEVER forgets this assault. When we throw our children into terror, they are imprinted with it forever after. We have bestowed a form of PTSD on them. This is a "gift" that keeps on giving - and it's not a blessing to them.
Most people in the US do not know that when female circumcision (FGM) was legal, MDs were compensated by Blue Cross Blue Shield for clitoriedectomies. They did it to me. I am adamantly opposed to circumcision of boys. Protect children!
RapeOfInnocence 2 months ago 4
@RapeOfInnocence I couldn't agree more! People that love to do circumcisions on children are some of the worst child abusers there are.
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
If you read "The Book of J", which is the original history of the jewish people, you will find no reference to the abraham circumcision story. no covenant based on circumcision.
ACIMessentials 2 months ago 2
Comment removed
Childinfaith 2 months ago
@Childinfaith - you have the right to your opinion. What you don't seem to understand is that this issue isn't about whether or not you or anyone thinks that a foreskin looks attractive. People have the right to refuse amputation of their healthy body parts regardless of other's opinions about how they look. What would you say if your mother had decided to amputate your sister's labia because she didn't like the look of them?
whatUneverknew 2 months ago 3
@Childinfaith For you personally, I'm glad everything worked out for you. Unfortunately, you aren't the only person in the world, and many people don't agree with you. We are in a situation where both of us were essentially raped and assaulted as infants (sexual contact without consent is rape, and inflicting bodily harm is assault), but you didn't mind, and I do. I think we can all agree, that just because you didn't mind in the end, that the rape is any less bad.
windigo77 2 months ago 3
@Childinfaith I've been shown pictures of what it looks like to be circumcised and looking at that exposed, dried up, wrinkled, callous glans I have to say I'd rather not be among those photos.
louisgeorges2000 2 months ago 3
@Childinfaith I'm curious to know how this doesn't affect one's view of Intelligent Design. It would seem, from the beginning, that the designer was terribly unintelligent, horribly designing the male penis with nerves, skin, glands, etc. I presume if it was left to ritual by requirement, such argument from design may be salvaged. As it stands, it's just because "we were born with a bad design... one that needs remedied with a rather curious surgical procedure." This is terribly telling.
paleocrat 2 months ago 2
@Childinfaith Additionally, why do anti-abortion advocates rely so heavily upon arguments against parental choice, only then to insist upon it within hours of 1/2 the human population being born? One cannot do anything to the dignity of the body and life while it's connected, dependent almost entirely upon the mother... but may (and even should!) do something to the integrity and design of the baby's penis shortly after birth? Terribly inconsistent, even arguably mischievous.
paleocrat 2 months ago
@paleocrat Whenever they may begin, human rights do not END at birth.
Hugh7777 1 month ago
@Childinfaith You like what you're used to. If you'd grown up intact, you'd almost certainly prefer that (especially for how it works!). It's not a "conspiracy" except that until very recently it was a conspiracy of silence. US doctors are still not taught anything about the foreskin except how to cut it off, and even anatomy textbooks show circumcised penises as normal.
Hugh7777 2 months ago
His body his choice ! <3
Rwowd 2 months ago 13
Forced genital cutting of children is sexual abuse and medical fraud. When this abuse is forced upon children they generally grow up believing the bullshit that accompanies this cutting. Like other forms of child abuse the victims unwittingly pass it on to their own children.
Fortunately people are waking up to this atrocity and more are protecting children from this abuse.
Bonobo3D 2 months ago 6
@Bonobo3D Yes it is!
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
Regardless of her opinion on this matter, Heather Bannister (and all other women) should submit to her husband's wishes in this matter - even if she insists on ruling over him in all other aspects of their life and marriage. She is not a man, does not have a penis, and should shut up and listen to her man.
pilgrim831 2 months ago
Comment removed
windigo77 2 months ago
@pilgrim831 Really? I was unsure if or how I should reply to this remark. It isn't an argument, and it's terribly chauvinistic... sentiments echoing from but a moment's crawl out of the primordial soup. Sadly, even if this doesn't reflect your own sentiments on the matter, it most certainly reflects the internal disposition and visible expression of a great many conservative religionists... all quite slow to evolve beyond the cave-dwelling club-wielding neanderthal.
paleocrat 2 months ago 2
@paleocrat LMAO, well said!
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
@pilgrim831 Almost any woman has something no circumcised man has - intact genitalia. How would she like to be without any part of them? And how would she like to have been deprived of any part of them, whether for custom, for "hygiene", for fear of teasing, or to look like her mother? What circumcised man can say with any knowledge what his son would wish as a man concerning his own foreskin?
Hugh7777 2 months ago
@pilgrim831 NO they shouldn't! They're the BEST kind of wives, & moms because they want to PROTECT their sons from being mutilated.
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
Comment removed
Hugh7777 1 month ago
If circumcision was not already part of the culture, it would never be allowed legally in our society. Even as part of a religious ceremony. We would especially probably not allow a non medical person to perform the operation. It is genital mutilation.
owheydusoapsk 2 months ago 16
@owheydusoapsk Circumcision of infants boys, and girls is MUTILATION! Let people decide what they want to do with THEIR own fucking bodies! If someone wants to get circumcised when they're old enough to understand what they're going to be losing out on, then it's their decision. But to circumcise ANY infant boy or girl, is PURE evil, & must be prevented at all cost. Anyone circumcising perfectly healthy infants is guilty of a CRIME, & needs to have their eyelids ripped off as punishment!!!
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
@owheydusoapsk From my Facebook page: Were we to transport ourselves from this time and space, severing ourselves from a culture inundated with Western religiosity (which I believe is central to the prevalence and general acceptability of modern circumcision), having no religious bias toward preserving such a ritual, lacking any and all cultural tradition of such a procedure and, given it's hypothetical non-existence, experiencing no peer-pressure from anyone ever having endured it... CONT
paleocrat 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@owheydusoapsk CONT... the idea that we would, with our modern sense and sensibilities, embrace or even permit such a procedure is absolutely absurd.
The context of this was a hypothetical instance wherein parent's argued tattooing penis within the first two days of birth as a right protected by a) freedom of religion and b) the idea that parents are endowed with authority to make such a decision on behalf of their baby boys. Absurd, no doubt... as was very much the point.
paleocrat 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos 2
@paleocrat Well that's it, it's only that it has been "Grandfathered in" that we allow it.
owheydusoapsk 2 months ago
"but he that is a Jew in hid, and the circumcision of heart, in spirit, not by the letter [not in letter], whose praising is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:29)
Circumcision is of the Judaizers, anyone arguing for it from a Christian perspective is a heretic and a liar. And yes, there is no health benefit to it, that was not the intention of it when it was instituted in the Old Testament.
hellsunicorn 2 months ago 4
@hellsunicorn Why do you think so many of us that were formerly X-tians are now either Pagans, or Atheists? The God of the Christians, Muslims, & Jews is bloodthirsty. Circumcision is just another form of sacrifrice to that "God"...
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
@loveunderlaw You're either Pagans or Atheists because you're either uninformed or bitter at your heretic parents. Christianity as a covenant never endorsed circumcision until Judaizers started infiltrating it, and it is denounced clearly right in Paul's Epistles. Research actual historians instead of the bloated cadaver Christopher Hitchens' drivel and you might learn something.
hellsunicorn 2 months ago
@hellsunicorn Dunno about "judaizers". The first christians - starting , or so the bible says, with Jesus - were Jews. Paul denounced circumcision because potential Greek converts wouldn't have a bar of it.
Hugh7777 2 months ago
@loveunderlaw Furthermore, unlike Judaism which only had one instance where a sacrifice could have, but did not occur, most vile Pagan religions from Rome to the Nordic Nations celebrated human sacrifice and bloodletting sports. And as for Atheists, I can point to the genocide in Eastern Europe and China as prime examples of how godlessness is just as hospitable to eradicating its enemies as any other view on the matter.
hellsunicorn 2 months ago
@hellsunicorn If human sacrifice did not occur in Ur, why do you think Abraham (if he ever lived, if there is any truth to the story at all) was so willing to do it? Maybe YHWH was only testing with circumcision too, but Abraham wasn't listening....
Hugh7777 2 months ago
@hellsunicorn The big Three monotheists have shed MORE blood than Pagans ever have! Who's doing the killing now? I'll tell you, "the monotheists".
loveunderlaw 2 months ago
@hellsunicorn The Jews may not have been big on human sacrifice (though it does seem like that they practiced child sacrifice at some point), but they sure loved to sacrifice animals. And they certainly had no qualms about killing people, even their own women and children. As for Christians, remember the Crusades? The Inquisition? No one in blameless here, so stop trying to pretend that you are superior to the rest of us.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene I'm not a Jew, so this argument is falling flat. Furthermore, the only person claiming to be superior is the moron I was responding to. Kindly read the entire conversation before running your mouth again and stop acting as though you are telling me something I don't already know.
P.S. - The Jews who practiced child sacrifice to Moloch and Baal were destroyed by the prophets, and it seems you are equating animals with people, which is ridiculous.
hellsunicorn 1 month ago
@hellsunicorn I know you're not a Jew. But you were defending Judaism in one comment on the basis of it not performing human sacrifice, despite the fact that you call Jews "Judaizers" in your other comments. I did read the entire conversation and it is obvious you don't like Jews (or an non-Christians), but decided to defend Judaism in one instance on account of it being the monotheistic heritage of Christianity.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene Ouch, already calling me an anti-Semite. Thin skinned much? Newsflash, you can think people are wrong and still like them. You're not really fairing well in the intelligence category here sweetie pie, might want to consider that before posting again.
hellsunicorn 1 month ago
@hellsunicorn I didn't call you an anti-semite. But your use of the word "Judaizer" is suspicious. I don't care whether you like Jews or not. However, like many Christians (particularly of the American variety), you seem to be very arrogant and aggressive, without much love or compassion. I pity you.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene Save your pity for the starving children of the world, and if you're feeling really industrious, donate to a charity rather than wasting your time trying to convince me I'm in the wrong here, which you are clearly failing at.
hellsunicorn 1 month ago
@hellsunicorn The starving children that God won't help? According to your religion they are going to heaven anyway, right? I'm not going to try and convince you of anything as that would be impossible. You are far too stubborn and strong-willed for that. But I do like to respond to comments for the sake of other readers of the thread.
endofscene 1 month ago
@hellsunicorn In terms of animals being sentient creatures that feel pain and experience fear, yes I would definitely equate them with humans. And most animals tend to act with more consistency and integrity than many humans, so I see no reason for us to consider ourselves a higher form of life, particularly when we are destroying the whole system of life as we know it.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene Ah, so you're one of those Gaia cult types, my apologies, I was about to lump you in with the usual troll turds I encounter from atheistkult. Suffice to say, I eat meat and I'm not ashamed, sorry about that.
hellsunicorn 1 month ago
@hellsunicorn I'm not a vegetarian and I don't care what you eat. You like labels, don't you? :) Less judgement and more understanding goes a long way to becoming a better person and creating less suffering. I believe this was the core of Jesus' teaching: to love one another. I wish you well.
endofscene 1 month ago
@endofscene Jesus' love was to a particular people that were chosen in a gratuitous fashion by God the father, he also showed hatred and intolerance to others such as the Pharisees, I suggest reading more of the bible than just a few select passages in the Gospel Of John. And thank you for the well wishes, you were beginning to bore me so I was planning to cease conversation with you anyway.
hellsunicorn 1 month ago
@hellsunicorn lol Now there's a new one: Jesus' love was conditional and provincial. Right. Love one another? Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you? Jesus did not hate the Pharisees, he simply called them on their hypocrisy and "sin" (error). Jesus killed no one. He rejected no one. He talked with the Pharisees and Sadducees who approached him. He accepted one and all, and healed the sinners. And then he supposedly suffered and died for all humanity.
endofscene 1 month ago
@loveunderlaw
Well I was told by a Christian turned secular humanist that the reason he became an atheist is because he didn't like being told that masturbation was morally wrong. I assume that this along with all other complete rejections of sexual morality is why former "X-tians" become Pagans or Heathens.
As for circumcision, the circumcision of the flesh was to be a sign or a symbol of the covenant between Abraham and God. It is circumcision of the heart that is desired.
ChristianLayman 2 months ago
@ChristianLayman And don't you Christians really have bleeding hearts. So open. So loving. So sensitive. So compassionate. lol What a load of tosh.
endofscene 1 month ago