Times are bad for music. The next Neil Young, Willie Nelson and anyone without nice bangs and a possee wont be hired.Talent optional, we have harmonizers for that. They SELL mp3s where the friendly pc eliminates the frequencies wed supposedly dont need, or people flat out swap spew labled wrong, no liner notes, they dont care that my zztop 8 track sounds better & isnt labled Mountain. People arent connected, the net & sattelite havent helped like they could, the less cds sell the more it sux
@JimijaymesGuitarist Doesn't work. All those dynamics, parts where the volume drops off, could be riddled with traumatizing parental sex-sounds. I suppose I could just generate some very loud noise and listen to that for a few hours, but that will be more boring than listening to Avril Lavigne.
i dont know who this guy is poking at with these ideas...if its electro producers then hes wrong. most modern "loud" music does exactly what he suggests, and uses dynamic loudness to get punch. although i have ocasionaly listened to radio pop, and just thought to myself "where the hell are the drums"? of course more recently big name electronic artists are producing half the pop coming out which is why it sounds so new and good to the people who listen to that shit.
Holyshit, I never noticed this. I heard someone complaining about this with the remastered Nirvana Nevermind album. I though that my headphones were bad or something because of the shitty quality with the music.
@IAmJawz The original Nirvana Nevermind was one of the best mastered albums in the last 20 years. Don't know why they had to remaster the bloody thing
How are you selecting those quiet parts and adjusting them ? What page / section in my DP 6.03 manual ? I have a huge problem since my music is so VERY ExTreMeLY dynamic. And i like to close mic which only complicates matters. Please see my featured video to see an example. Thanks .. Jeff
@capo420420 Thanks! Actually there is no software that works the way you see here. I simulated it in the video with image editing and screen capture software - there is nothing in Digital Performer or any other DAW that I know of that looks like that.
What you have on the video sounds good to me, at least on the laptop where I am now. If I were you I'd probably use volume automation by hand for that kind of track for the most natural sound.
@LoudnessWar oh great, i'm didn't overlook a feature in my software .. haha. Would be nice if it could do that. And Yes, Hand drawn volume automations is how i do it now. I used to do some forensic trimming in Peak but now i just run my audio to an outboard compressor , my fav, the Joe Meek SC 2.2 . I sold my first JM 2.2 to a guy who worked for Neve and regretted ever since. I managed to snag one on ebay for a fair price and they'll have to pry it from my cold dead fingers .. lol
@Kueller917J Sorry I don't immerse myself in none issues as you clearly do. Most people prefer consistent volumes. If you look at the video response to this, it gives an example of an unmastered recording where the guy speaks loud. I had my volume at a comfortable level for him speaking normally, so when he spoke loud it nearly deafened me.
So for music you'd either have to have the loud parts at a comfortable volume, and compromise the quite parts or vice versa...
@sedwarg There's times when loudness does affect the song positively. That's not really what I was saying. You said that people would prefer smaller file sizes over larger ones that are higher quality (which is true for most), but you can have a low size file that isn't affected by the loudness war. That's all I was saying.
Great video, and it's such a shame that music is being ruined by this loudness procedure. I only have a few CD's that sound great, and rest are average, because they don't care about dynamic range, and sound quality. Thanks for doing something about it.
What´s the name of the song being used in this video?;-) Thank you for making visible and audible why it is important to keep the dynamic in a more pleasant way and not destroy it.
We pay all this money to get the so-called "remastered" cds (at a time where mp3s and downloads are more popular than cds) hoping and expecting to hear something better, cleaner and crisper then the original 80s cds and all we get is lousy highly compressed music that sounds like an amplified tin can...shame on record companies and their marketing departments and shame on artists who prefer these atrocities to be released...no wonder we are experiencing the decline of record music industry...
@LoudnessWar You realize compression can be applied in a more subtle, musical way, which actually does make the record sound better. for starters, you use a real compressor, not whatever you used to maximize this track. to my ears, the first two hits on the snare drum are way to loud in comparison to the rest, so the record would have definitely benefited from some compression. We all hate the loudness war, but compression is important.
@LoudnessWar exactly. well, then I guess we agree on that... You know, it's just all that superficial knowledge about loudness, compression and audio engineering in general that annoys me so much.
@LowFlyer10 Mostly, don't use too much dynamic compression/limiting on the 2-bus, and allow it to sound "quieter" with your speakers set to the same volume. When you do this, the tradeoff is that it seems quieter than most songs at first, but when you turn up your speakers, or if it's played on iTunes or WMP or another player with a volume matching feature, the music is more dynamic (and, I would assert, more musical & affects people more).
You have to find that tasteful "sweet spot" regarding mastering compression. Make the songs loud enough (relative to eachother), and do not make them louder just for loudness sake...
@squidpants In the short term louder seems better, and people are scared to release songs better quality because it's "quieter" (until the listener turns up their volume).
@LoudnessWar U will lose audio quality when uploading to YT thou.. It will be 160-192kbps tops.. perhaps u could add upload link to one of file sharing sites also to hear sound uncompressed by YT?
@adrianek07 Thanks for the suggestion but that's probably not going to happen... The data compression done by YouTube doesn't affect the dynamic range, and distorts all sections of the video the same way, so it is still easy to hear the dynamic difference. I may someday redo the video in HD quality though.
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Very nice an precise explaination. I'm definitely not participating in this any longer. I'll compress my stuff as much as really needed and not a bit more.
@LaraCroftCrazy1 ...and why I'm hunting for the original versions of a couple of old CDs of mine that got damaged. The only versions available to buy now are "digitally remastered!" ones, which even just from the online previews I can tell it's pretty obvious they've been DRC'd to hell. The 128k mp3s I made of them back around the turn of the millennium sound better.
The irony of it all? The sweet, layered, spacy sound I want to enjoy again... is Bon Jovi's debut album. DRC even ruins THAT! :-D
@TahreyUK Not Bon Jovi :D! Have you tried looking on eBay? Sure, they're mostly second hand, but i've found loads of original CDs on there in great quality :).
Thanks for the comments everyone. Pretty much everything relevant has been said. Feel free to browse the comments archives, and please take a look at Bob Katz' (Grammy award-winning mastering engineer) web site for more info. -Matt
A comment and a question: after watching this, I'm no longer surprised at the huge difference between live and recorded sound. I know there are many other things, but it always surprised me how a live performance seems much more "listenable", since I can make out the different instruments.
Can this be reversed somehow? I guess it will be, at best, very difficult.
This has been bugging me for so long, and I could not put my finger on what was happening. I mean, it sounded compressed, but I didn't think it was some sort of global effort driven by improper motives.
I don't think it is, either - just nobody has the guts to put out a CD that's .5 dB quieter than anyone else because they're too afraid it will be called "weak."
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in later posts but it needs to be specified that it isn't the record producer who is doing this, like mentioned in this video. It's the record label executives. They insist that mastering engineers compress their releases like this. We engineers are forced to do this otherwise we would be fired. I'm not sure if the creator of this video was implying this, but it needs to be specified.
One quick question: in this day and age, is it possible to put a CD with a louder volume while still retaining excellent audio quality? For someone with diminished hearing, (like me) that would be great.
I already knew that method, I was talking about whether or not the original audio off of the CD could be any louder, (so that hearing-impaired listeners do not have to tamper in any way with the audio or audio-player.) Thanks for the reminder though!
This is only one aspect of the manner the record companies have destroyed rock and roll in a rush for short term profits. And when we resist buying the crap they attempt to force feed us, they call us pirates and criminals.
also the consequence of this is when it starts to clip meaning the volume passes 0 db.. My mastering teacher louie terran from marcussen mastering told us a story of the red hot chili peppers album - californication which if you listen to it, you will hear alot of clippin... also too much compression and limiters will make your ears tired and so you dont wanna listen to it no more..
Well... in 2006 most people buy their music digitally, and as we all know mp3 doesn't have that quality that CD has, so to be fair, it doesn't really change much now does it?! you doesn't get the details on a regular CD, just like you don't get them on MP3...
Most CDs put out by audiophile labels such as Analogue Productions, the now-defunct DCC, Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab, etc. often put out CDs that are much better sounding than their major label counterparts and most CDs that came out in the early CD era do sound better than a lot of the later major label remasters. The best way to find out which CD or LP pressings to buy is to ask people at web forums such as Steve Hoffman's website, Audio Asylum, Head-Fi and others.
@Cokoholicar deluxemastering[dot]com[dot]au And yes most of my clients specifically request retained dynamics. Not that compression itself can't sound good - but it's for the sound of it, not for sheer level. Often no compression per se in mastering. Keep in mind the mixes should already sound amazing!
Does anyone know of a visualizer who could show this loudness-graph, to say, any ot the biggest media players while playing audio? would be VERY interesting.
Most DAWs have a meter that will show you the peak and RMS values. (Peak = loudest split-second sound; RMS = average level) A fairly spacious, open recording will have its peak 14 or more dB higher than RMS. Recent releases can have as little as 7 or 8 dB peak-RMS difference.
@mattmana if you have a mac i guess you can see them on garage band! or download audacity for free :-) not exactly media players, but they ll do the job :-)
the 'moozeek dot de' link mentioned by a commenter was also absolutely superb -- explained the difference between normalization and limiting vs. the scandalous compression they're doing to CDs.
such a shame! we got this great digital technology to eliminite hiss (CDs), and then they ruin it...
i LIKE dynamic RANGE. i WANT dynamic range. is there any web site out there that lists CDs and high quality MP3s that are NOT compressed?
There's an online petition here petitiononline(dot)com/RHCPWBCD/ asking Red Hot Chilli Peppers to release a new version of their hyper-compressed last album Stadium Arcadium. This album as been properly remastered but only available in vinyl.
Super demo! Thank you for getting the word out -- Let's hope the right people are listening. Also it would be wonderful if we could convince some of the FM radio stations to drop-out of the loudness wars in some markets. A wonderful L.A. FM radio engineer once told me that, should a loudness war come to L.A. radio, he would win the war by *not* participating! As Bob Orban once said, "Less is more."
Great video! Very illustrative. It points out one thing that is often missing. The so called "loud" CD won't ever be played louder than usual non-compressed CD. Because the listener's got the volume control knob and will always set the volume he (she) prefers. And in the case of "loud" CD he (she) will simply get dull, boring sound with totally muted drum beats and no dynamic.
Rip Rowan wrote an excellent article in 2002 which demonstrated exactly this:
Do a google search for:
over_the_limit rip rowan
and click on the link to moozeek dot de
He did as fantastic job as possible given the medium (written word and graphics), and there's a lot more detail, but for obvious reasons this here video/audio demonstration also says it all quite succinctly and probably more understandable to the layperson.
You have said it so true, Keep spreading the truth. the modern "fashionable" sound is really killing beautiful music while the average listener doesn't even know.
The best way to find out if your favorite album(s) have been treated this way is to import a track into an audio editor (like the excellent and free program Audacity). If the music's been treated well, only the very peaks should reach the top and bottom. If it's been mistreated/compressed, then the tips of the peaks will be off the charts (they'll look cut off) and the waveform will appear as mostly one big solid mass.
What complicates a clear understanding of it all is that I DO still enjoy the music, but.. possibly w/ a diminished sense of satisfaction without fully realizing it. I think this whole topic gets lost on the average person, especially. They hear music, and if they like it, well.. it must SOUND good enough if they're still enjoying it, right? But maybe they listen for only 20 minutes when it could have been for an hour.
I've spotted a pattern with myself for turning the music volume down or shortening the time spent listening to music, or skimming through songs for the "best parts". Is it mere boredom or impatience on my part, unique to my tastes & having nothing to do with the quality of music or the recording? Or, am I unconsciously being compelled to abandon my listening "session" because of this seemingly subtle force?
I heard about this a while ago & must confess that I haven't always understood, nor have I been annoyed to any large degree. But as time goes on, I've begun to feel it's impact more clearly, I think. As it's often been described, the loudness can sound good at first.. everything right there, clear & detailed. But at the very same time, there might be a subtle or not so subtle wearing effect.
Unfortunately, the latest album by Dream Theater, "Systematic Chaos", is a prime example of this. The DVD-Audio surround mix is not much better either. :(
Sometimes people just have to SEE the waveform to understand what's really happening. It's the same thing like when I try to explain how increasing the brightness of underexposed video footage doesn't improve the image because those values are already clipped at 0.
This thread (put "stadium arcadium hydrogenaudio forums" (without the quotes) on google and hit I'm feeling lucky, stupid youtube doesn't let me publish the link here) is another good example of how this can negatively affect the quality of a single. It talks about Vlado Meller, the Stadium Arcade album that he mixed for Red Hot Chili Peppers and how the same album, mastered by Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray, sounds better that this, exactly because they mastered to preserve the dynamic range.
i agree that maximising and compression is over done in the recording process these days. I love dynamics, but there's nothing we can do about it now...radio and record companies want it that way, and all the average non-audiophiles out there (aka, 70% of the music consumers in the world) really don't give a shit.
Now I know why I don't like current recordings and stopped listening. If I had to guess, I would say the band U2 uses this technique, which for me, makes the unlistenable. U2 is just "noisy music" to me.
Thanks for all your comments. The general term for this is "dynamic range compression" and actually it has nothing to do with MP3 or AAC data compression. It is not done much on classical music, because the dynamics are so much more vital and noticeable, but it is creeping into jazz.
The other extreme is having too much hiss/noise in the recording, which I don't like either. I try to strike a balance in my recordings.
But yeah, this all started when radio stations discovered that they get more airplay when they turn up the compressor and make the music louder. It's also a convenient substitute for sound quality. Now that record companies are getting the jump on this, we have a two-fold problem and... yeah. Here we are.
i agree, the loss of dynamic range in modern day records is a shame. Why can't we have "radio edits" anymore? keep the original record cut the way it should be?
I agree with whoever said that the 90-00 will be looked at as a "crazy era" of music mastering.
Actually (and this will never be recognized by record companies), I believe compression of music to death is one more reason why people are giving up buying CDs and just downloading MP3 off the internet. It's all crap anyway, and the first to blame for not preserving the music quality are the music companies themselves!
This is a great explanation of what is wrong with today's recordings. I record music myself (non professionally) and often complain to friends about the poor sound quality of today cd's and how they are over compressed. Most of them don't really understand what I'm on about. This video might help to make more people understand. You really should e-mail this to record companies to show them what's wrong with the current way of mastering cd's
So sad. I hope we get to hear less-compressed versions of music some day. I've been listening to 70s vinyl and CD reissues, and though I far prefer 80s music, earlier sounds so much better.
Is there a tool that can give a numeric value to the amount of loudness cheating? It would be interesting to correlate it with my own "Damn, love the music, why is the sound so uninvolving?" reactions to so many recent CDs.
It's a bit like bigotry; everybody I know bitches about it but almost nobody will take a stand and have it unsquashed. Bet that Bob Katz "k-system" would be a good thing.
See, kids, this is why I jumped off this sinking ship and went back to vinyl. In fact, I'm listening to Sabbath Vol 4 right now, brand-new with clear vinyl. Give me the actual music, not some crappy corporate simulation of it.
Of course, it also doesn't help that today's Ken and Barbie pop stars suck so much. Get some standards, people!
Thanks for the video. It's greatly appreciated, and provides needed ammo to make the case. Best viewed after listening to Dark Side of the Moon on vinl.
You're an idiot. This has nothing to do with "corporate simulations" of anything, so save your angsty anti-establishment rantings for your stoner buddies.
Even the small indie labels and electronic genre as a whole (which is still very much uncommercial in the states) has jumped head-first into the loudness wars.
House/Trance acts are probably the worst offenders in the war and the big "corporate" labels won't touch these genres.
I've been in the audio industry for many years, and am pretty familiar with this subject. What I found so utterly compelling about this excellent video is that, even knowing what was going on, the louder version did sound much 'better' - until it's volume was reduced to match the original. Then it was so obvious what had been lost - all the 'life'. Every record company exec (i.e. the people who insist on this stupidity) should be forced to view this.
For a really good example of this kind of thing, listen to some older Rush music, and then listen to something from their 2002 CD "Vapor Trails". On the older albums, despite the music's complexity and busyness, you can distinctly hear each individual instrument. But on Vapor Trails, it sounds like a big mashup.
So many props on this video. You completely gave a name and even an explanation to something that had been slowly driving me insane. And you did it with a damn good song to boot.
Thank you! Though I can't take credit for coining the term Loudness War - it has been floating around for a while. And yes, I think "Flowers In The Dirt" is a great album.
For the sound, I used various multiband compressors and the limiter built into Digital Performer 4.12. The visuals were done with Photoshop and Snapz Pro (animated screen capture). There is no real audio program with a GUI that looks like what I did, though it is an accurate (if simplified) representation of what a compressor does.
i have done a home recording, but it is way too quiet, even quieter than the first one you have shown, how can i get it a bit louder without it peaking?
That's a big question and there's no answer short enough to post here. It depends on your software too. One article I saw looked like it might help: try Googling "mastering podcasts with Audacity." Good luck, -Matt
Do you think albums of today are produced horribly?
Rockillswich 1 week ago
Times are bad for music. The next Neil Young, Willie Nelson and anyone without nice bangs and a possee wont be hired.Talent optional, we have harmonizers for that. They SELL mp3s where the friendly pc eliminates the frequencies wed supposedly dont need, or people flat out swap spew labled wrong, no liner notes, they dont care that my zztop 8 track sounds better & isnt labled Mountain. People arent connected, the net & sattelite havent helped like they could, the less cds sell the more it sux
guitargold77 1 week ago
I'm not noticing this sort of thing all over the place. Thanks for ruining music for me, buster.
EvanED 2 weeks ago
So who's guilty of doing this, id like to know/
ise1880 2 weeks ago
This is EXACTLY why I had to remaster my whole album. DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE PEOPLE!!!
DjFonyTV 2 weeks ago
I protest the loudness war when i mix and master my music!
jKRAMER001 3 weeks ago
I'm sick of this shit. Sometimes people need to use music to block out their parents having sex. LOUDNESS IS USEFUL SOMETIMES.
xxRazorJadexx 3 weeks ago
@xxRazorJadexx Then turn up the stereo system
JimijaymesGuitarist 3 weeks ago
@JimijaymesGuitarist Doesn't work. All those dynamics, parts where the volume drops off, could be riddled with traumatizing parental sex-sounds. I suppose I could just generate some very loud noise and listen to that for a few hours, but that will be more boring than listening to Avril Lavigne.
xxRazorJadexx 3 weeks ago
i dont know who this guy is poking at with these ideas...if its electro producers then hes wrong. most modern "loud" music does exactly what he suggests, and uses dynamic loudness to get punch. although i have ocasionaly listened to radio pop, and just thought to myself "where the hell are the drums"? of course more recently big name electronic artists are producing half the pop coming out which is why it sounds so new and good to the people who listen to that shit.
NXNskater 3 weeks ago
Holyshit, I never noticed this. I heard someone complaining about this with the remastered Nirvana Nevermind album. I though that my headphones were bad or something because of the shitty quality with the music.
IAmJawz 3 weeks ago
@IAmJawz The original Nirvana Nevermind was one of the best mastered albums in the last 20 years. Don't know why they had to remaster the bloody thing
JimijaymesGuitarist 3 weeks ago
Loudness Wars is killing music
Pentaro22 3 weeks ago
Hi, great video, i agree 1 billion percent !!!
QUESTION: i use digital performer too.
How are you selecting those quiet parts and adjusting them ? What page / section in my DP 6.03 manual ? I have a huge problem since my music is so VERY ExTreMeLY dynamic. And i like to close mic which only complicates matters. Please see my featured video to see an example. Thanks .. Jeff
capo420420 3 weeks ago
@capo420420 Thanks! Actually there is no software that works the way you see here. I simulated it in the video with image editing and screen capture software - there is nothing in Digital Performer or any other DAW that I know of that looks like that.
What you have on the video sounds good to me, at least on the laptop where I am now. If I were you I'd probably use volume automation by hand for that kind of track for the most natural sound.
LoudnessWar 3 weeks ago
@LoudnessWar oh great, i'm didn't overlook a feature in my software .. haha. Would be nice if it could do that. And Yes, Hand drawn volume automations is how i do it now. I used to do some forensic trimming in Peak but now i just run my audio to an outboard compressor , my fav, the Joe Meek SC 2.2 . I sold my first JM 2.2 to a guy who worked for Neve and regretted ever since. I managed to snag one on ebay for a fair price and they'll have to pry it from my cold dead fingers .. lol
capo420420 3 weeks ago
not everyone is an audiophile
sedwarg 4 weeks ago
@sedwarg Do a blind test with anybody from anywhere and I guarantee you they will always prefer the quieter version, which can then be turned up...
weses1 2 weeks ago
@weses1 That's great. Show them the size of the files and I guarantee most people prefer the smaller one...
sedwarg 2 weeks ago
@sedwarg Compressing files for the loudness war =/= data compression. Hell, this guy even has a video describing that.
Kueller917J 1 week ago
@Kueller917J Sorry I don't immerse myself in none issues as you clearly do. Most people prefer consistent volumes. If you look at the video response to this, it gives an example of an unmastered recording where the guy speaks loud. I had my volume at a comfortable level for him speaking normally, so when he spoke loud it nearly deafened me.
So for music you'd either have to have the loud parts at a comfortable volume, and compromise the quite parts or vice versa...
sedwarg 1 week ago
@sedwarg There's times when loudness does affect the song positively. That's not really what I was saying. You said that people would prefer smaller file sizes over larger ones that are higher quality (which is true for most), but you can have a low size file that isn't affected by the loudness war. That's all I was saying.
Kueller917J 1 week ago
@Kueller917J Is it compressing? Using a limiter would just discard the data, not compress it, right?
dissident93 1 week ago
this is why vinyl is making a come back
jogmas12 1 month ago
For years I have wondered whats wrong with most music for it sounds "flat" to me. Well now I know it's not me that is faulty, it's the industry.
runosulka 1 month ago
cool =)
GermanBoysTV 1 month ago
Great video, and it's such a shame that music is being ruined by this loudness procedure. I only have a few CD's that sound great, and rest are average, because they don't care about dynamic range, and sound quality. Thanks for doing something about it.
Smith8340 1 month ago
Agree--people are taking it to far. However, analog compression sounds great. Also, people need to find a middle ground.
hardmous 1 month ago
The Loudness War fucks up music its as simple as that.
scaleop4 1 month ago
Praise to you Matt Mayfield for calling BS on this degenerative fad.
HealthConnectTV 1 month ago
This should be the most viewed video on Youtube
Ozunreal 1 month ago 15
@Ozunreal i agree this should go out to all music lovers
ChesGod73 1 month ago
For those wondering what the song is that's used, it's Paul McCartney's "Figure of Eight" from the album "Flowers In The Dirt."
Dropsender 1 month ago 2
we use compression often in radio and tv commercial audio, it has no place in music. when people say music has become too commercial, they are right.
bdubyou55 1 month ago
What´s the name of the song being used in this video?;-) Thank you for making visible and audible why it is important to keep the dynamic in a more pleasant way and not destroy it.
derlubinator 1 month ago
We pay all this money to get the so-called "remastered" cds (at a time where mp3s and downloads are more popular than cds) hoping and expecting to hear something better, cleaner and crisper then the original 80s cds and all we get is lousy highly compressed music that sounds like an amplified tin can...shame on record companies and their marketing departments and shame on artists who prefer these atrocities to be released...no wonder we are experiencing the decline of record music industry...
lapislazuli248 1 month ago
another "good" loudness war example:
"Gorillaz Single Collection 2001-2011"
(althought Gorillaz mastering always sucked)
My ears were abused listening to it
Gigidag77 1 month ago
What's the name of the song used in this video?
dochmbi 1 month ago
@dochmbi and many other people, Y U NO read the credits at the end of the video?
LoudnessWar 1 month ago 18
@LoudnessWar A lot of times people dont watch the credits on yt vids the say they dont watch them at the cinema.
Maybe put it in the description ?
trulynot 3 weeks ago
Black Album > St Anger
This is incredible :)
Amazing Video :)
Mr1Luciano 1 month ago
1:10 and 1:35
there you go
FFreddddddd 1 month ago
Comment removed
ChristopherDone 2 months ago
PAUL MCCARTNEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYY
beatlesfan464 2 months ago
what program this is?!!? i want to make my all METALCORE songs LOUDER!
kimis2424 2 months ago
@kimis2424 Any pro audio program will do this. Have fun
LoudnessWar 2 months ago
@LoudnessWar You realize compression can be applied in a more subtle, musical way, which actually does make the record sound better. for starters, you use a real compressor, not whatever you used to maximize this track. to my ears, the first two hits on the snare drum are way to loud in comparison to the rest, so the record would have definitely benefited from some compression. We all hate the loudness war, but compression is important.
AgentHomer 2 months ago
@AgentHomer Of course. It's not a black-and-white issue.
LoudnessWar 2 months ago 3
@LoudnessWar exactly. well, then I guess we agree on that... You know, it's just all that superficial knowledge about loudness, compression and audio engineering in general that annoys me so much.
AgentHomer 2 months ago
@AgentHomer You should probably get some new speakers
Elbownian 2 months ago
@Elbownian Sorry, I don't quite understand?
AgentHomer 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kimis2424 lol, how stereotypical... (what program this is?!!? i want to make my all METALCORE songs LOUDER!)
Mileswantsabillion 2 months ago
How do I mix my songs so I get the dynamics like classic albums but have a volume that I can hear every little detail?
LowFlyer10 2 months ago
@LowFlyer10 Mostly, don't use too much dynamic compression/limiting on the 2-bus, and allow it to sound "quieter" with your speakers set to the same volume. When you do this, the tradeoff is that it seems quieter than most songs at first, but when you turn up your speakers, or if it's played on iTunes or WMP or another player with a volume matching feature, the music is more dynamic (and, I would assert, more musical & affects people more).
LoudnessWar 2 months ago
@LowFlyer10
You have to find that tasteful "sweet spot" regarding mastering compression. Make the songs loud enough (relative to eachother), and do not make them louder just for loudness sake...
SPAZZOID100 1 month ago
so why do they do it?
squidpants 2 months ago
@squidpants In the short term louder seems better, and people are scared to release songs better quality because it's "quieter" (until the listener turns up their volume).
LoudnessWar 2 months ago 4
Was good showing the waveforms but you'd be able to hear things a lot better in a higher quality video, not in 240p.
Otherwise very good!
andy435 2 months ago
@andy435 I heard a massive difference between them.
Troothforc 2 months ago
@andy435 Thanks. I made this in 2007, and back then, 240p is all that YouTube had! I am working on an HD version with new music.
LoudnessWar 2 months ago
@LoudnessWar U will lose audio quality when uploading to YT thou.. It will be 160-192kbps tops.. perhaps u could add upload link to one of file sharing sites also to hear sound uncompressed by YT?
adrianek07 1 month ago
@adrianek07 Thanks for the suggestion but that's probably not going to happen... The data compression done by YouTube doesn't affect the dynamic range, and distorts all sections of the video the same way, so it is still easy to hear the dynamic difference. I may someday redo the video in HD quality though.
LoudnessWar 1 month ago
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hermesbirkinbags 2 months ago
thanks for video.Greetengs from Serbia...
zsimke 3 months ago
The best explanation :)
ThrowawayFolk 3 months ago
Very nice an precise explaination. I'm definitely not participating in this any longer. I'll compress my stuff as much as really needed and not a bit more.
PaddyShadowMusic 3 months ago
This is why I buy vinyl :)
LaraCroftCrazy1 3 months ago
@LaraCroftCrazy1 ...and why I'm hunting for the original versions of a couple of old CDs of mine that got damaged. The only versions available to buy now are "digitally remastered!" ones, which even just from the online previews I can tell it's pretty obvious they've been DRC'd to hell. The 128k mp3s I made of them back around the turn of the millennium sound better.
The irony of it all? The sweet, layered, spacy sound I want to enjoy again... is Bon Jovi's debut album. DRC even ruins THAT! :-D
TahreyUK 3 months ago
@TahreyUK Not Bon Jovi :D! Have you tried looking on eBay? Sure, they're mostly second hand, but i've found loads of original CDs on there in great quality :).
LaraCroftCrazy1 3 months ago
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Thanks for the comments everyone. Pretty much everything relevant has been said. Feel free to browse the comments archives, and please take a look at Bob Katz' (Grammy award-winning mastering engineer) web site for more info. -Matt
LoudnessWar 4 years ago 2
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A comment and a question: after watching this, I'm no longer surprised at the huge difference between live and recorded sound. I know there are many other things, but it always surprised me how a live performance seems much more "listenable", since I can make out the different instruments.
Can this be reversed somehow? I guess it will be, at best, very difficult.
MaGaO 4 years ago 167
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Thanks for this insightful piece of info.
cyborlite 4 years ago 246
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Supurb point. I'm just worried that the people digitally remastering classic music is doing it.
Cj1500 4 years ago 161
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Fantastic video. I can't stand large corporations making decisions the consumers should make. If I want the volume up, I will turn it up.
quicksilver4648 4 years ago 279
This has been bugging me for so long, and I could not put my finger on what was happening. I mean, it sounded compressed, but I didn't think it was some sort of global effort driven by improper motives.
TheSpiderMind 4 years ago 57
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I don't think it is, either - just nobody has the guts to put out a CD that's .5 dB quieter than anyone else because they're too afraid it will be called "weak."
LoudnessWar 4 years ago 5
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in later posts but it needs to be specified that it isn't the record producer who is doing this, like mentioned in this video. It's the record label executives. They insist that mastering engineers compress their releases like this. We engineers are forced to do this otherwise we would be fired. I'm not sure if the creator of this video was implying this, but it needs to be specified.
pmcgowan88 4 years ago 340
One quick question: in this day and age, is it possible to put a CD with a louder volume while still retaining excellent audio quality? For someone with diminished hearing, (like me) that would be great.
tubafatness 4 years ago 2
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Yes - turn up the volume on your playback device. (Not meant to be sarcastic or disrespectful - simply serious.)
LoudnessWar 4 years ago 5
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I already knew that method, I was talking about whether or not the original audio off of the CD could be any louder, (so that hearing-impaired listeners do not have to tamper in any way with the audio or audio-player.) Thanks for the reminder though!
tubafatness 4 years ago
I recommend everyone who loves music and hates what record companies are doing to it favorite this video. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
TheSpiderMind 4 years ago 62
This is only one aspect of the manner the record companies have destroyed rock and roll in a rush for short term profits. And when we resist buying the crap they attempt to force feed us, they call us pirates and criminals.
Great info, thanks.
TheSpiderMind 4 years ago 23
ah i love paul mccartney!!
rainbowafflez 4 years ago 2
also the consequence of this is when it starts to clip meaning the volume passes 0 db.. My mastering teacher louie terran from marcussen mastering told us a story of the red hot chili peppers album - californication which if you listen to it, you will hear alot of clippin... also too much compression and limiters will make your ears tired and so you dont wanna listen to it no more..
raidacaipo 4 years ago 24
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what is that song?
mbarry6 4 years ago
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some cds do sound well like californication,you can hear clipping put it fits the music
darwinator12932112 4 years ago
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Well... in 2006 most people buy their music digitally, and as we all know mp3 doesn't have that quality that CD has, so to be fair, it doesn't really change much now does it?! you doesn't get the details on a regular CD, just like you don't get them on MP3...
Still sucks tho...
luizbendotti 4 years ago
very well done, good job. I will not buying another cd until they change it back to the original.
fuckthevietcong 4 years ago 13
Very interesting--5 stars!
russianracehorse 4 years ago 8
Most CDs put out by audiophile labels such as Analogue Productions, the now-defunct DCC, Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab, etc. often put out CDs that are much better sounding than their major label counterparts and most CDs that came out in the early CD era do sound better than a lot of the later major label remasters. The best way to find out which CD or LP pressings to buy is to ask people at web forums such as Steve Hoffman's website, Audio Asylum, Head-Fi and others.
BradOlsonBemidji 4 years ago 4
Well done. Indeed: "without quiet there can be no loud".
The tide may just be turning afterall...
- Professional mastering engineer.
TWEAKER01 4 years ago 21
@TWEAKER01
Hi, where do you work. How can your services be acquired?
Cokoholicar 1 month ago
@Cokoholicar deluxemastering[dot]com[dot]au And yes most of my clients specifically request retained dynamics. Not that compression itself can't sound good - but it's for the sound of it, not for sheer level. Often no compression per se in mastering. Keep in mind the mixes should already sound amazing!
TWEAKER01 1 month ago
Does anyone know of a visualizer who could show this loudness-graph, to say, any ot the biggest media players while playing audio? would be VERY interesting.
mattmana 4 years ago 2
Most DAWs have a meter that will show you the peak and RMS values. (Peak = loudest split-second sound; RMS = average level) A fairly spacious, open recording will have its peak 14 or more dB higher than RMS. Recent releases can have as little as 7 or 8 dB peak-RMS difference.
LoudnessWar 4 years ago
@mattmana if you have a mac i guess you can see them on garage band! or download audacity for free :-) not exactly media players, but they ll do the job :-)
andreacaccese 3 months ago
Excellent economic expose on exactly the malady. KUDOS. GREAT!
Joeey 4 years ago
THANK you. i will NEVER buy a CD AGAIN.
the 'moozeek dot de' link mentioned by a commenter was also absolutely superb -- explained the difference between normalization and limiting vs. the scandalous compression they're doing to CDs.
such a shame! we got this great digital technology to eliminite hiss (CDs), and then they ruin it...
i LIKE dynamic RANGE. i WANT dynamic range. is there any web site out there that lists CDs and high quality MP3s that are NOT compressed?
starlists 4 years ago 9
Wonderful. Says a lot just for musicality's sake.
NewRelics 4 years ago 3
This is killing music listening pleasure. This is garbage throwed at our ears. It's unnacceptble!
joaodav 4 years ago 15
There's an online petition here petitiononline(dot)com/RHCPWBCD/ asking Red Hot Chilli Peppers to release a new version of their hyper-compressed last album Stadium Arcadium. This album as been properly remastered but only available in vinyl.
joaodav 4 years ago 5
Super demo! Thank you for getting the word out -- Let's hope the right people are listening. Also it would be wonderful if we could convince some of the FM radio stations to drop-out of the loudness wars in some markets. A wonderful L.A. FM radio engineer once told me that, should a loudness war come to L.A. radio, he would win the war by *not* participating! As Bob Orban once said, "Less is more."
6L6GT 4 years ago 2
interesting ... sounds is degraded by CD manufacturers , that's innaceptable , i buy CDs for sound quality
really good video , it explains very well
tenebrae654789 4 years ago 3
This makes me mad. I go to the store and pay money for a CD, the sound should not be compromised like this.
coldhandshake 4 years ago 6
Great video! Very illustrative. It points out one thing that is often missing. The so called "loud" CD won't ever be played louder than usual non-compressed CD. Because the listener's got the volume control knob and will always set the volume he (she) prefers. And in the case of "loud" CD he (she) will simply get dull, boring sound with totally muted drum beats and no dynamic.
izmailovo 4 years ago 6
Rip Rowan wrote an excellent article in 2002 which demonstrated exactly this:
Do a google search for:
over_the_limit rip rowan
and click on the link to moozeek dot de
He did as fantastic job as possible given the medium (written word and graphics), and there's a lot more detail, but for obvious reasons this here video/audio demonstration also says it all quite succinctly and probably more understandable to the layperson.
zerobeat18 4 years ago 6
You have said it so true, Keep spreading the truth. the modern "fashionable" sound is really killing beautiful music while the average listener doesn't even know.
dazmandawson 4 years ago 4
The best way to find out if your favorite album(s) have been treated this way is to import a track into an audio editor (like the excellent and free program Audacity). If the music's been treated well, only the very peaks should reach the top and bottom. If it's been mistreated/compressed, then the tips of the peaks will be off the charts (they'll look cut off) and the waveform will appear as mostly one big solid mass.
otterkid 4 years ago 9
"Without quiet, there can't be no loud" 150% true
peewack 4 years ago 7
Well said. I totally agree.
darkstonecastle 4 years ago
What complicates a clear understanding of it all is that I DO still enjoy the music, but.. possibly w/ a diminished sense of satisfaction without fully realizing it. I think this whole topic gets lost on the average person, especially. They hear music, and if they like it, well.. it must SOUND good enough if they're still enjoying it, right? But maybe they listen for only 20 minutes when it could have been for an hour.
kikkiokioli 4 years ago 2
I've spotted a pattern with myself for turning the music volume down or shortening the time spent listening to music, or skimming through songs for the "best parts". Is it mere boredom or impatience on my part, unique to my tastes & having nothing to do with the quality of music or the recording? Or, am I unconsciously being compelled to abandon my listening "session" because of this seemingly subtle force?
kikkiokioli 4 years ago 6
I heard about this a while ago & must confess that I haven't always understood, nor have I been annoyed to any large degree. But as time goes on, I've begun to feel it's impact more clearly, I think. As it's often been described, the loudness can sound good at first.. everything right there, clear & detailed. But at the very same time, there might be a subtle or not so subtle wearing effect.
kikkiokioli 4 years ago 4
thats why i think you really have to know the mastering house that will be doing your work,also a perfect example why not over compress in the mix
valveheads 4 years ago
Very good. What you show is what MIXING really should be, and the lack of it on so much music today. Very good example also. Thanks.
numberwriter 4 years ago
Unfortunately, the latest album by Dream Theater, "Systematic Chaos", is a prime example of this. The DVD-Audio surround mix is not much better either. :(
jollino 4 years ago
Rush - Vapor Trails = great example of an album RUINED by loudness.
atomsatoms 4 years ago 2
I think this is only decent video i have ever seen on youtube. thx =D
sandkiller 4 years ago 4
Sometimes people just have to SEE the waveform to understand what's really happening. It's the same thing like when I try to explain how increasing the brightness of underexposed video footage doesn't improve the image because those values are already clipped at 0.
pixeldrift 4 years ago 3
I thought I was the only person who noticed this, and I thought it had to do with crappy amplifiers back in the old times, but hey, it's intentional!
nlitement 4 years ago
This thread (put "stadium arcadium hydrogenaudio forums" (without the quotes) on google and hit I'm feeling lucky, stupid youtube doesn't let me publish the link here) is another good example of how this can negatively affect the quality of a single. It talks about Vlado Meller, the Stadium Arcade album that he mixed for Red Hot Chili Peppers and how the same album, mastered by Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray, sounds better that this, exactly because they mastered to preserve the dynamic range.
fernandomilton 4 years ago 2
Who's the genius that decided louder, compressed music is better? It started somewhere.
SquidGuy 4 years ago 5
i agree that maximising and compression is over done in the recording process these days. I love dynamics, but there's nothing we can do about it now...radio and record companies want it that way, and all the average non-audiophiles out there (aka, 70% of the music consumers in the world) really don't give a shit.
mfthrilla 4 years ago
very intresting
nbarbati 4 years ago
Wow, this has cleared up a lot of stuff for me, plus I've learnt something new today - the music industry's money hungry. =P
Thanks for the great vid!
wakachamo 4 years ago
Now I know why I don't like current recordings and stopped listening. If I had to guess, I would say the band U2 uses this technique, which for me, makes the unlistenable. U2 is just "noisy music" to me.
rhyderstorm 4 years ago
Yes, I think I've read that recent U2 albums have been similarly afflicted.
kikkiokioli 4 years ago
The bastards.
kilmarp 4 years ago 9
Thanks for all your comments. The general term for this is "dynamic range compression" and actually it has nothing to do with MP3 or AAC data compression. It is not done much on classical music, because the dynamics are so much more vital and noticeable, but it is creeping into jazz.
LoudnessWar 4 years ago
The loudness wars have gone too far now. Hopefully we can look forward to a return to properly mastered, listenable albums in the near future.
Obsidian1138 4 years ago
Is this practise limited to popular music, or is it also done in jazz and classical?
encipher 4 years ago
man..this actually makes sense....productio just got a lil sweeter-myspace/dcmstudioqaffiliates
decoy1999 4 years ago
This technique is called "compression" and yes it is way over-used.
keithburgun 4 years ago
Thanks! I've been trying to explain this to people for awhile without sounding like a nut.
LizardMusic 4 years ago
The other extreme is having too much hiss/noise in the recording, which I don't like either. I try to strike a balance in my recordings.
But yeah, this all started when radio stations discovered that they get more airplay when they turn up the compressor and make the music louder. It's also a convenient substitute for sound quality. Now that record companies are getting the jump on this, we have a two-fold problem and... yeah. Here we are.
MyNameIsBucket 4 years ago
i agree, the loss of dynamic range in modern day records is a shame. Why can't we have "radio edits" anymore? keep the original record cut the way it should be?
jeremyflavored2 4 years ago
Wimpy Loud Sound, not in my home!
outofmysky 4 years ago
thank you...so true and so sad
belamoure 4 years ago
Excellent video!!!
I agree with whoever said that the 90-00 will be looked at as a "crazy era" of music mastering.
Actually (and this will never be recognized by record companies), I believe compression of music to death is one more reason why people are giving up buying CDs and just downloading MP3 off the internet. It's all crap anyway, and the first to blame for not preserving the music quality are the music companies themselves!
fseco72 4 years ago 5
I've been complaining about this for YEARS. Too bad the folks who make these decisions are probably all too deaf to hear the difference...
lennbob 4 years ago
This is a great explanation of what is wrong with today's recordings. I record music myself (non professionally) and often complain to friends about the poor sound quality of today cd's and how they are over compressed. Most of them don't really understand what I'm on about. This video might help to make more people understand. You really should e-mail this to record companies to show them what's wrong with the current way of mastering cd's
MacXpert74 4 years ago 2
Right on. Spread the word! When songs are limited (compressed) so much these days, it is really the expression, that gets limited.
debatten 4 years ago
EXCELLENT. This visual representation helps me show people what I've been trying to say. You're the best!
LelandHendrix 4 years ago
So sad. I hope we get to hear less-compressed versions of music some day. I've been listening to 70s vinyl and CD reissues, and though I far prefer 80s music, earlier sounds so much better.
Is there a tool that can give a numeric value to the amount of loudness cheating? It would be interesting to correlate it with my own "Damn, love the music, why is the sound so uninvolving?" reactions to so many recent CDs.
skierpage 4 years ago
@rpc9943: see earlier comments.
LoudnessWar 4 years ago
It's a bit like bigotry; everybody I know bitches about it but almost nobody will take a stand and have it unsquashed. Bet that Bob Katz "k-system" would be a good thing.
SansonNavajas 4 years ago 2
Excellent demonstration! 5 stars.
j00f 4 years ago
Good educational video.Very sad that "loud" is equated with "better".
singtometoo 4 years ago 2
See, kids, this is why I jumped off this sinking ship and went back to vinyl. In fact, I'm listening to Sabbath Vol 4 right now, brand-new with clear vinyl. Give me the actual music, not some crappy corporate simulation of it.
Of course, it also doesn't help that today's Ken and Barbie pop stars suck so much. Get some standards, people!
Thanks for the video. It's greatly appreciated, and provides needed ammo to make the case. Best viewed after listening to Dark Side of the Moon on vinl.
danielthomas 5 years ago
You're an idiot. This has nothing to do with "corporate simulations" of anything, so save your angsty anti-establishment rantings for your stoner buddies.
Even the small indie labels and electronic genre as a whole (which is still very much uncommercial in the states) has jumped head-first into the loudness wars.
House/Trance acts are probably the worst offenders in the war and the big "corporate" labels won't touch these genres.
mrklp 4 years ago 5
I've been in the audio industry for many years, and am pretty familiar with this subject. What I found so utterly compelling about this excellent video is that, even knowing what was going on, the louder version did sound much 'better' - until it's volume was reduced to match the original. Then it was so obvious what had been lost - all the 'life'. Every record company exec (i.e. the people who insist on this stupidity) should be forced to view this.
martintillman 5 years ago 5
Excellent description of the problem. I'm a professional recording engineer and that sums it up perfectly.
Wheels77 5 years ago 2
This is a great video, explains clearly what's happening. Glad the bucket has been lifted off my head!
elsatan666 5 years ago
elequently done.
Letori 5 years ago
For a really good example of this kind of thing, listen to some older Rush music, and then listen to something from their 2002 CD "Vapor Trails". On the older albums, despite the music's complexity and busyness, you can distinctly hear each individual instrument. But on Vapor Trails, it sounds like a big mashup.
Phase42 5 years ago 2
I love your video, man. It makes it easier to explain to people who don't produce music. Thanks.
lolwtfbbqnsmb 5 years ago 4
So many props on this video. You completely gave a name and even an explanation to something that had been slowly driving me insane. And you did it with a damn good song to boot.
cwgannon 5 years ago 2
Thank you! Though I can't take credit for coining the term Loudness War - it has been floating around for a while. And yes, I think "Flowers In The Dirt" is a great album.
LoudnessWar 5 years ago
what program did you use?
thetaita 5 years ago
For the sound, I used various multiband compressors and the limiter built into Digital Performer 4.12. The visuals were done with Photoshop and Snapz Pro (animated screen capture). There is no real audio program with a GUI that looks like what I did, though it is an accurate (if simplified) representation of what a compressor does.
LoudnessWar 5 years ago
i have done a home recording, but it is way too quiet, even quieter than the first one you have shown, how can i get it a bit louder without it peaking?
thetaita 5 years ago
That's a big question and there's no answer short enough to post here. It depends on your software too. One article I saw looked like it might help: try Googling "mastering podcasts with Audacity." Good luck, -Matt
LoudnessWar 5 years ago
you may use the function known as normalize, wich makes the highest peak in recording to 0db or other value that you put in.
thealmightyalbatross 5 years ago
normalize, hard limiting or compression
Ginlah 5 years ago
normalize ONLY if compression is involved.. if you just normalize to PEAK it will not hard limit or compress the track...
remoman 5 years ago
Can anyone find some quotes from VLADO MELLER, who was infamous for mastering "Californication"?
skunkyfunk 5 years ago 2