Re: Islam: Religion of Peace- ARC un-Christian Club

[thecarsus]

ews una basura de religionn esa mierda asesinosde laptm

[subrayo]

VRLOBO88:

WELL SAID, buddy!! You hit the nail on its head!!!

Keep the good work going.

[Bigslick189]

the bible is completely false, the Christian religion and its offspring are all products of a compendium of pagan, Norse, and Greek mythology mulled into a nice tale of a savior. Do some digging. Easter is based on a pagan holiday. Also, I am pretty sure i do not need faith to know that Mr.Washington was the first president. Boiling facts down and saying you need faith to believe true statements....is laughable

[vrlobo88]

oh yes...that's a great answer (not)...God for some mysterious reason wants to send his creation to hell because they react naturally to the environment in which he places them

[333tommyboy333]

WRONG!!! GOD said that if you dont BELIEVE in JESUS CHRIST, u will not be with GOD!! its not just being like jesus, its BELIEVING in Him... muslums will not be in heaven because they dont believe in Jesus Christ as their personal savior and God.

[vrlobo88]

333tommyboy33 read my other posts. Why would God gift non-Christian families with children if He knows that these children will not be raised to believe that Jesus is God and if he expect us all to unite under Christianity? i pose this question again and again and have yet to receive a valid response. humans say that that is what God says. the bible is full of ethnocentric ideas that are a product of humans.

[333tommyboy333]

there could be many reasons, Gods work is MISTERIOUS!!! we couldnt possibly understand it.

what you are saying is against the bible, and the bible is never wrong, so, yes, that makes u wrong.

[vrlobo88]

and the bible is never wrong because....? because mommy and daddy said so? because some ancient jews said so? ?????

[333tommyboy333]

simple answer... because of pure, simple faith. I believe that it is, its all in faith. your faith is so weak, why are u believing in things u can see or touch? Faith comes from the heart. ur denying God, and His word. look over your life buddy, your headed the wrong way. =(

[vrlobo88]

if faith is inherint, then i should have it no matter what...faith is developed from experience; it is not inherint

[hluiscp]

Tommy,can you describe what faith is?

[333tommyboy333]

faith is sure belief and trust. faith is sure of what you hope for and certain of things even if you cannot see them. to have faith in Jesus means to trust him and believe what the Bible says about him.

[hluiscp]

stubbornness

[333tommyboy333]

faith is sure belief and trust. faith is sure of what you hope for and certain of things even if you cannot see them. to have faith in Jesus means to trust him and believe what the Bible says about him.

[hluiscp]

So can faith and stuborness be similar in a way?

[hluiscp]

So can faith and stuborness be similar in a way?

[333tommyboy333]

no. everyone has faith. for example, how are you SOO dam sure that george washington was the first president? or that it was really Thomas jefferson that wrote the constitution? just cuz teacher teach it, and the history books say it? you have no proof. all you have is FAITH. you believe it happend, your 100% sure it happend. so are you stubborn? no. so faith is the same. I beleive it. and your gonna call me stuborn for wat i believe? i can call you stubborn for everything you believe in too.=)

[hluiscp]

I never called you stubborn, I was asking you for you definition of faith and if it can be similar to stubborness. Put your guns down =)

[333tommyboy333]

lol =) my guns are down. haha. i can see were you would thing that my faith crosses over to stubborness... but there is a fine line between the two. i stand hard as a rock when it comes to defending my belief.

[vrlobo88]

not to spoil the conversation between the two of you, but we have good sources that inform us that washington was the first presidens, whereas, many biblical stories were recorded hundreds of years after the events they describe and by people who had very little to go on

[333tommyboy333]

i agree, that was just an example.

what is the foundation of your riligion? its definatly not the Bible, not any book because you told me that a discussion erlier. you have no foundation, there is no solid ground. your like the man that built his house on sand, and when the storm came, it collapsed. not to insult you or anything, but a riligion without a concrete foundation, is only your desire of what to believe, you made your own rules up!

and ther is also much proof of biblical stories, BTW.

[vrlobo88]

tommyboy: foundation of my religion: bible, tradition, logic...i never told you that i disregard the entire bible...i told you that i realize that the bible is not always meant to be taken literally...it was not written by americans in 2008 for americans in 2008 ...one must consider this when reading it... i made my own rules up? if you want to call it that sure... organized religion is some people's made up rules; however, what my religion is based on is not made up.

[333tommyboy333]

the bible is Gods word. all of it, if your not gonna balieve all of it, how in the world r you even gonna believe part of it? that is just simply wrong! the bible clearly says that the author of the holy bible is the holy Ghost, which is God. believing in just a part of the truth and not the whole thing is as equivelent as not believing at all.

[vrlobo88]

hopefully this answers your response/questions. my responses are in order from bottom to top.....your turn....

[vrlobo88]

if in your heart of hearts, you truly (in the most innocent and purest form) believe that God wants you to do X, if you do X, regardless of how X is viewed by society, God will not hold anything against you because He will recognize that you are doing your best to serve Him to the best of your abilities. someone who thinks X constitutes murder is lost and confused, but God will not hold it against him or her if he or she truly believes that X is what God wants of him or her

[vrlobo88]

i am refering to someone who can look themselves in the mirror and can truly and most honestly say to themselves, this is what God wants. this does not include someone who knows that they are doing is wrong and use serving God as an excuse as is the case of osama (more than likely).

[vrlobo88]

yes, although it may sound extreme and crazy, i do believe that if someone kills someone else and truly believes that that is what God wants of them, then he or she should not have said crime held against him or her....NOW BE CAREFUL IN INTERPRETING THIS....i do not mean osama bin laden or that mall shooting kid. because...

[vrlobo88]

in fact, in many parts of the bible, human misconceptions are revealed. when Jesus cured the blind man, people wondered what the man and his parents had done to deserve such a punishment (blindness)...now, thanks to progress and increased knowledge of the world, we know that blindness and sickness in general is not a curse of God, but rather an unfortunate, natural occurence. the bible continually shows its human voice throughout.

[vrlobo88]

again, i base my beliefs off of reason. again, i also do not take the bible literally. i do not believe noah and those with him were the only ones spared. who would have been there to write this? more importantly, up until fairly recently the half of the world was not even known to exist. no one knew about north or south america. who could say that God destroyed the WHOLE world? more than likely, a part of israel was flooded and whoever wrote the passage attributed this to God.

[vrlobo88]

"take them for yourselves" ...please explain how this does not promote rape and then explain how different times justify rape.

[vrlobo88]

i never pulled anything out of context. according to the hebrews, God commanded murder. do i think He did? no. but they say so, and this is one of the reasons i don't take the bible literally nor do i say that the bible does not promote violence against non-believers.

[vrlobo88]

i can't show you in the bible where Jesus does this because He never did. I am not saying He did. I am stating that the bible often sends conflicting messages. why would God tell samuel to kill innocent children? he wouldn't. this is some ethnocentric jewish rubbish. i am in no way against jews, but few would argue that the jews did not write the old testament favoring them. they claim to be the "chosen people" and they villify all who oppose them

[vrlobo88]

with this in mind, wouldn't God expect someone to carry the religion He or she is raised with forever? just as you are adamant in your beliefs, so is a non-christian in his or hers

[vrlobo88]

you're right i don't get to choose, but the best i can do is reason. i know that God is much wiser and more powerful than i, and therefore, i know that if i can make sense of something, so can He. now is it that unreasonable to say that the values/beliefs that are instilled in a person when he or she is young are likely to be carried with him or her forever? this is why parents stress teaching someone right and wrong early on.

[vrlobo88]

i will try to post without the messages going everywhere, if this doesn't work, we can resort to messaging. okay. here goes:

bowing- bowing does not have to be a form of worship. in many countries in the east (japan for example), bowing is a sign of respect. catholics genuflect/bow to statues of the virgin mary. one may bow to a dance partner or to an opponent in karate. think of it as tipping your hat.

[TheNeutralSapien]

GOD BLESS YOUR SOUL BROTHER!!!

[Caius1990]

The comments are scattered. If you still want to show everyone what we are talking about Im fine with it. But if you want to make it easier, you want to go to messages instead? Before we resort to messages though, try to read the rest of what I wrote in response. You can reply if you feel that want to have the last word or something.

[vrlobo88]

for an answer to your last question about buddhists and what i base my beliefs on, please view my video:

Re: Salvation Through Faith in Jesus Christ

...it explains it all

also, please show me where in the Bible Jesus wrote that He was the Son of God. i'm not saying He isn't but i'm just trying to prove that anyone can say anything about someone and then tell others to believe in it.

[Caius1990]

Matthew 16:16-17

[Caius1990]

In your video there were a lot of "I thinks", and "in generals". So this is your OWN philosophy of how God thinks. Your basing your beliefs on what YOU think should be. Look at the time of Noah. Noah and his family were the ONLY people left on EARTH who believed in God. That's why God spared ONLY Noah's family from the flood, killing the rest of the world. Because they chose NOT to recognize who the true God is.

[aprentiss06]

Thank you! This video is refreshing! All the hate and ignorance is truly saddening! I really appreciate and thank the maker of this video!!! Thanks for setting the image of what Christianity is really about straight for all of those "CONFUSED Christians"!

[vrlobo88]

way to twist my words! if you want to distance yourself from the true God, my God, go ahead. my God has sense and does not reject those who refer to Him by a different name. i'm not mad at christians; i am one. i am mad at those who claim they are christians, but act otherwise and tarnish the name of christianity.

[Caius1990]

Lol. Do you have a name for this new faith your starting? I don't get it. You are basically choosing certain parts of the Bible that YOU want to believe and anything else is not worthy of believing. I believe in ALL the Bible and that it speaks the truth. What makes you think that the part YOU believe is right and the rest is not worthy of believing? Who put YOU in charge to pick and choose? By the way sorry for the time lapse. My email usually notified me...

[Caius1990]

You say you only need to live a good life? Jesus says in Luke 15:7 "I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance."

This kinda means we need to repent don't you think? Not just live a good life. I think you are afraid.

[Caius1990]

I think you are afraid that, if the whole Bible is true, then you must reject this life you are enjoying so much, and follow a true christian life. I think you think that a true christian life is too much work, so, you decide to pick and choose whatever sounds easy to you because that makes you feel better.

[vrlobo88]

i need no name for what i believe and i need not follow any one religion. God is above any religion. organized religions distort God's message.  i believe that the bible provides valuable teachings. a merciful and loving God would not expect everyone to choose the same religion. by the way, i define living a good life as doing whatever it is that you truly feel is righteous and is what God wants of you.

[vrlobo88]

in my eyes, repetance is recognizing a wrong and making strides to prevent the same wrong from happening again. a christian life is simple...follow Christ's teaching of loving one another and loving yourself....that's about all you need....all the other garbage isn't necessary, just man-made rules and regulations (political mumbo jumbo)

[Caius1990]

You are right about all the political mumbo jumbo and stupid things made up by man. Lots of it has nothing to do with the Bible. I'm afraid you are thinking of me as one of those. All I believe is everything that is in the Bible. I don't believe in anything else man made. What I have a problem with is that you think that being good is all it takes.

[Caius1990]

The muslim's have Allah. They have a completely different book from the Bible that characterizes THEIR God much differently from ours. They are worshipping a different God then the Bible tells us about. And I'm sure you know what the first commandment is. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

[Caius1990]

The muslims also have the Kabaa, a big black box they bow down to. The second commandment says: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth". So how can these people go to heavan when their religion already breaks 2 commandments? You think God is going to just forget about it and focus on how good they are being?

[Caius1990]

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God". You think they can be good and keep their religion and be right in the true God's eyes? You believe the 10 commandments are true right? You prefer the Bible before the Quaran right?

[Caius1990]

By the way, Jesus says in John 14:6 - "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

[vrlobo88]

you can't blame someone for being indoctrinated in what may be wrong to others. if you are raised to believe X, you will believe X. not everyone has a fair chance of believing in Jesus as God and not everyone even has a chance. tell me honestly that if you were raised a muslim, you would convert to christianity. look a yourself now. would you trade your current faith for another one. hell no. you will believe what you've learned to believe.

[Caius1990]

You're right in one way. It would be hard for me to convert. But God created us with a chance to find the truth. And who are you to decide what's fair or not? That's up to God. You're not the one who gets to choose what YOU think God SHOULD expect from us.

[vrlobo88]

as to your question about why God would let someone into heaven if they promoted violence, i believe that God judges us on how we respond to what we believe to He wants. in other words, you should do what you truly believe God wants you to do. if you honestly believe He wants you to do X, then you must do X

[Caius1990]

Lol. So ANY psychopath can base his actions on what you just said. Osama Bin Laden killed 1000s. But it's AAAALL good with God cuz THATS what Mr. Osama thought God wanted. Maybe that guy who killed 8 people in the mall this week then killed him self based his actions on what he thinks God wanted....???

[vrlobo88]

do you know what the kaaba is? haha...no offense but do some research. they are not worshipping "the box." muslims believe that the kaaba is the site where abraham was to sacrifice his son. by going there, they honor the convenant with God

[vrlobo88]

Allah, Elohim, Adonai, Yahweh are all the same God. plus, as i've said earlier, God cannot possibly expect us to believe in a same entity as God because He places us (as babies) in families with various faith traditions. He knows that we will not all be raised christian. He knows that religion is an attempt to find Him and form a relationship with Him

[vrlobo88]

i do not take the bible literally. if you think about it, the 10 commandments are similar to man-made laws. why do men create laws? to address problems. there are no need for laws if there aren't problems to protect against. if you were to make laws to protect yourself, what would you make? well, you don't want to be killed, robbed, have your wife taken, have your stuff taken, etc

[vrlobo88]

therefore, you create laws to prevent such things. i believe the way of Jesus is the way to God...doing as He did is the way to God. again, why would God damn non-christians to Hell if He is the One who created them and placed them in non-christian families? newborns don't choose which family or which religious tradition they are born into.

[Caius1990]

Lol. Dude. They are BOWING DOWN to that box. If that's not worshipping then what is?!

Everyone who is born has a chance to get to know the true God. If they choose to ignore it then it's their problem. The Bible says God wants everyone to be saved. You believe God knows the future right? If He knows the future then He knows who's going to hell already. So why did God create us if He already knows who's going to heavan and who's going to hell?

[Caius1990]

From what you've written you're basing your beliefs on the life of Jesus Christ. So what about the muslims? Jesus never killed anyone during his short life on earth. In fact, He told us to love our enemies, yet the Quaran commands people to fight and kill non-believers. How can you say that God will let them into heavan?

[Caius1990]

The Buddhists as far as I know dont even have a Jesus Christ in their religion. Jesus says in John 14:6 - "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." So ONLY through Him. So if you don't believe this verse, what are you basing all your beliefs on?

[Caius1990]

Jesus says in John 14:24 - "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." By the way Jesus says in John 10:30 - "I and My Father are one." So Jesus IS God.

[vrlobo88]

and another promoting hate of non-believers: If there is anyone, man or woman, among you...who does what is displeasing to Yahweh your God by violating his covenant, who goes and serves other gods and worships them...you must take the man or woman guilty of this evil deed outside your city gates and there you must stone that man or woman to death (Deuternomy 17:2-6).

[Caius1990]

All you proved here is that you are good at pulling things out of context and not giving all the facts. God is talking to MOSES and His chosen people. And this was LONG ago back when things were different. AGAIN, show me in the Bible where Jesus killed someone and told all his followers to do the same.

[vrlobo88]

another quote and this time, promoting rape too: "[Eleazar the priest] said, 'Why have you spared the life of all the women?...So kill all the male children. Kill also the women who have slept with a man. Spare the lives of only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves" (Numbers 31:15-19).

[Caius1990]

This does NOT promote rape. It speaks of a moment in history. Moses does not tell us to rape people. Again, back then the times were different and things were different. AGAIN show me in the Bible where Jesus killed someone and told all his followers to do the same. Because Moses is not the law here.

[vrlobo88]

are you kidding me? the bible is full of hate speech. everyone is quick to quote the koran, but you don't have to go far to find the same message in the bible. e.g. Yahweh (God) told Samuel "Do not spare [Amalek], but kill man and women, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey" (2 Samuel 15:2-3).

[Caius1990]

That's God showing his wrath through Samuel. It's directed ONLY towards the people God told Samuel to kill. Show me in the Bible where Jesus killed someone and told all his followers to do the same, then we have something to talk about.

[vrlobo88]

i answered your question about the kaaba. it is a remembering the covenant God made with Abraham...think of it as catholics receiving communion....catholics remember the covenant God made with humans through Jesus...He made covenants with many: abraham, moses, david, and finally with all of humanity through Jesus (well at least christians are to believe so)

[Caius1990]

Yeah but we don't BOW DOWN to any of it. Last time I checked, bowing down to something is a sign of worship.

[Caius1990]

Read your Bible.(Ephesians 2:8-9) "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast." So don't say, and I quote you here, "live a good life and you will be saved" because that's not the only thing we need to do to be saved. (John 3:18) "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

[vrlobo88]

doing good works doesn't imply boasting...you don't have to feel guilty about doing good deeds.

about non-believers being condemned, i again ask:

If God only accepts those who believe Jesus is God, why does he gift non-Christian families with children? Wouldn't He know that they wouldn't be raised Christian? So you believe that He creates, so that He can condemn His own creation come judgement day?

[Caius1990]

I never said you should feel guilty for doing good deeds. It's good to do good deeds. My point was that you said "live a good life and you will be saved" when in fact you need to do more than "live a good life" to be saved. Again I quote (John 3:18) "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

[vrlobo88]

and then to that i again ask:

If God only accepts those who believe Jesus is God, why does he gift non-Christian families with children? Wouldn't He know that they wouldn't be raised Christian? So you believe that He creates, so that He can condemn His own creation come judgement day?

[Caius1990]

Many people in this world are born into non-Christian families and some of them choose to believe in God. One way or another they are going to hear the message and if they choose not to believe then they are at fault.

[vrlobo88]

First of all, I am not debating whether they believe in God, but rather whethere they accept Jesu as God. Few will convert because someone tells them that their current practices are wrong. God is smart; He knows that the will not just give in to someone who tries to convert them.

[Caius1990]

You are arguing against yourself. What are you saying? Are you saying that if someone believes that Jesus is God, then they can keep their other practices?

[vrlobo88]

no. i am saying if someone believes in God (don't assume I mean Jesus by God) then that's all that matters. i am not arguing against myself. i am saying that God does not care which religion we choose, so long as we live a good life

[Caius1990]

Do you believe in the Bible?

[Caius1990]

I mean do you believe that everything in the Word of God, the Bible?

[vrlobo88]

no. i believe that the Bible sends God's message but that it is not His word verbatim.

[Caius1990]

2 Peter 1:20-21 - ...knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Thats just a little heads up.

You avoided the point of my last question though, so I will rephrase it: Do you believe that the whole Bible speaks the truth?

[vrlobo88]

answer to your question: no

the reason i say this is because there are numerous passages in which violence against non-believers is promoted and condemnation of those of other faith traditions is promoted.

secondly, about the scripture being unopen to interpretation:

The Bible was compiled by men. These men chose which books were to be included and which were not; who are men to decide what is the inspired Word of God and what is not?

[Caius1990]

There is only ONE way to God and that is through Jesus. That's why other faiths are not right and that's why those who believe in them will not be going to heavan. Tell me where violence against non-believers is promoted in the Bible.

[Caius1990]

And by saying "NO" to my question, you, therefore, believe in a different God than I do. So you are practically promoting your own religion here and putting down mine. Isn't that what you were mad at the Christians for in the first place??

[benjaminunicume]

"Your argument falsely implies that God sees some as "innocent" : "As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one." (Romans 3:10)

You are guilty of making God into your own image."

He's speaking through reality's perspective. The introduction of scripture is defeating. Your counter-argument is fallacy and thus debunked. Read a book.

[vrlobo88]

Oh if none are righteous, then why does Mt 25:37-40 say:

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?"

If God only accepts those who believe Jesus is God, why does he gift non-Christian families with children? Wouldn't He know that they wouldn't be raised Christian? So you believe that He creates, so that He can condemn His own creation come judgement day?

[ARChristianClub]

Your comments indicate that you have no idea what the Bible teaches about sin, death, Christ, and salvation. Please explain why Jesus needed to come to this earth, be born of a virgin, live a perfect life, be crucified, descend to Hell, and be raised the 3rd day. Then I can fully understand where you are coming from and adequately address your questions.

[vrlobo88]

Do not try to to entrap me with something I may say that is totally unrelated. You are waiting to pounce on anything that you can that may put me in ill favor in the eyes of others and capitalize on that point without answering my question. What I think of Jesus' purpose is of no concern at the moment. Out of fairness, I will answer your question after you've answered mine which I posed first.

[ARChristianClub]

Your argument falsely implies that God sees some as "innocent" : "As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one." (Romans 3:10)

You are guilty of making God into your own image.

[vrlobo88]

The way of Jesus is the way to the Father...why don't you use the logic God gifted you with to argue against the example I gave in the video? Please tell me why God would condemn an innocent soul? I await your response.

[ARChristianClub]

"If ye believe not that I AM He, ye shall die in your sins." - Jesus Christ, John 8:24

"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" - Jesus Christ, Luke 13:3

"I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life; no man cometh unto the Father but through me." John 14:6

[KingMKLA]

@ARChristianClub There are many countries that do not allow the bible in their boundary's and so you say that their people will be sent to hell. You group is a crock that is completely full of themselves.