"At the end of the day what it boils down to is the fact that what is stopping our teachers from being the most highly compensated, urban educators in this country, is tenure. Something that has absolutely no educational value for children."
Rhee is a liar who just wants to line her own pockets as she cozies up to her hedge fund backers and stuffs more than a million bucks a year into her private bank accounts.
Not everyone would shill for money. But Michelle Rhee does.
Just how does a fraud like Michelle Rhee live with herself??? She covered up allegations of child sexual abuse made against her now husband when she worked for his charter school in Sacramento, and she has only less than 3 years of actual classroom experience... She's nothing but a charlatan for the corporate right's decimation of public schools in America, and she has absolutely NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER.... She should be in PRISON, not given a PLATFORM....
But firing teachers at will, without rightful due process is what Rhee? Good for students?! WTF! Rhee's goal is to destroy public education and teacher unions -- that simple
@marcostar57 That's NOT her goal dummy. I swear--teachers, tenured teachers, have none of the compassion and thoughtfulness that they're supposed to instill in their students. You need to look at it from the perspective of the GOOD (young) teachers out there (among the average, and the not-so-good), and consider how unfair it is for THOSE people, to sit and rot on the vine FOR NO OTHER REASON than the fact that they aren't as old as someone else.
the "good, little children" would all go to the LIBRARY to STUDY and do their HOMEWORK!
They would also drink their milk and eat all their vegetables!
I'm still waiting for the T.V. reality show where Arne Duncan, Bill Gates, Michelle Rhee, Davis Guggenheim, et al. attempt to teach Remedial Math at a junior high in the inner-city!
@MsJanetWood well said Jane. Plus, it's never been about teachers, or what's best for the children, if it were children in this country would be truly taken care of from after their birth through college (or trade schools), but they are not, and in this system that Arne Duncan, Michelle Rhee and others are proposing it will be even less. It's obvious, and we should all know this by now that what is said by these kinds of people are actually smoke screens to their true intentions.
"they should just privatize education. private schools vastly outperform public school"
SOME do. Yet I can name one Catholic school I grew up near that was a joke.
Also, a study cited in TIME magazine titled "Are Private Schools Really Better?" Oct. 10,2007 cites a study by Center on Education Policy...that disagrees with you.
@lvll138inrs This is because private schools can pick and choose which children they accept. In public schools non fluent English language students take these tests. The children born addicted to drugs at birth, or with fetal alcohol syndrome go to public schools, the children whose parents are in prison, who have been neglected. The children in public schools actually when you compare apples to apples far out shine many in private schools.
Yes, cocksucker. No educational value because once you got rid of tenure, you would start removing public schools one by one and replacing them with private. That's the goal. If you guarantee that such action won't be realized, everyone will jump on you boat, but you know damn well where this is going.
@befuturenow Tenure allows teachers to take risks, become inspired and risk takers teach most imaginatively, and are by far better teachers. If it were not for tenure, most teachers would just play it safe. I'd compare this to sailing. My father would always tell beginning sailors that if you want to become a great sailor capsize your boat. This will let you know where the edge is, and this in turn gives the sailor more knowledge than the play it safe sailor.
@Elin48 Your point is completely backwards. If a sailor capsizes their boat they learn how NOT to sail and the next time they sail, they do it correctly. Same goes for a bad teacher. They should get fired. They will then know that this is the WRONG way to teach. Next time they teach they will be better and better.
@psiewert83 Your logic is vague. Let's say there's a student whose home life is utter shit (alcoholic dad, hateful mom, brother in a gang, etc.) and who lives in a neighborhood full of bad influences.
You expect a teacher to transform this kid? Have you ever taught before. This "blame the teacher" mentality is nonsense. Can't you see the right is slowly pushing to make it impossible for teachers to organize/unionize and have a voice? We're slowly going back to medieval times and the serfs.
@hotfingersandwich Yes i've taught before, and I understand that some kids are unteachable. But my point is that a teacher that tries as hard as she can to reach out to kids is paid the same as a teacher who doesnt give a fuck at all, doesn't work hard, and has horrible grades with his/her kids. You think that the shitty teacher should get to keep their job? As an Engineer I'm graded on personal performance, how hard I work, and outcome. All jobs should be graded the same way.
@psiewert83 Keep your eye on any politician (or their flunkies, one of which Rhee is) who say anything to the effect that they want to help the kids. There's usually ulterior motives. The deal here is a slow chipping away at unions and workers' protections. Unions are fucked up, too, but it's a lot better than being a flat-out plebe. "Can't work those extra two hours a day? Sorry, bud, better luck next time. You're fired!" We're close to going back to a medieval caste system, you know.
@hotfingersandwich First off, I don't think teachers should be judged on test scores at ALL. They should be judged based on how much effort they put in. A principal should be watching and observing. If a teacher shows up late for work, has the Freshman in high school finger paint all day while she sits on Facebook, and lets the kids go early, that teacher should be disciplined. Just like at my job. If I slack off and someone catches me, I get fired.
@hotfingersandwich Additionally, I'm sick and tired of paying property taxes that go towards educating kids who have no interest in getting an education. I'm paying X amount of dollars a day for some thug to skip school and go sell drugs. Or have sex in the janitors closet. Or disrupt a classroom full of kids who WANT a good education. Those kids should be expelled immediately and never given an opportunity to join a school in that county again unless they pay.
@psiewert83 My mother in law is a 3rd grade teacher for example. She told me that last year this one kid that always made problems intentionally decided to pull down his pants and take a shit in the middle of the classroom. Because everyone is so PC today she had to stand there and let the kid finish and wasnt allowed to discipline him. They had to shut down the school so someone could clean it up. That kid cost the school $1000's and he was allowed to stay. Thats fucked up.
black culture is the true problem. black kids should not have to have it imposed on them to work hard, not steal and not be a menace to society. this should be built into their culture and come from their parents. black culture glorifies a lack of education, violence, promiscuity, etc. and that's the REAL problem that no one is talking about
Teacher "X" teaches 5 classes. He teaches 3 Algebra classes, 1 Advanced Algebra class, and 1 remedial class. His first four classes are okay, but his last class is utter chaos!
Why?
Is it because the class has 43 students instead of 35?
Or maybe because the majority of the students don't speak English?
Could it be that it's late in the day and the kids are tired?
Or maybe, just maybe, the kids are DOWN-RIGHT LAZY?
Stop blaming the hard-working, dedicated teachers!
@MsJanetWood I don't blame teachers. Some of the best people I know are teachers. Having an autistic son, I value the hard work and dedication of that teacher. I value my HS Calculus teacher. I wish they were paid more. My HS History teacher who spent his time figuring out football plays while making us watch "Roots" for 3 weeks straight... yeah, he should have been canned. Get rid of tenure, and stop paying bad teachers the exact same as great ones.
@MsJanetWood We arent blaming the hard working teachers. We are upset that our tax payers go to pay the insanely high salaries of the shitty teachers, who cannot be fired based on their performance or how hard they work. I'd rather have a system where a principal is responsible for observing, rating, and promoting teachers. Id have no problem paying a good teacher $150,000 a year and a shitty teacher either being fired or making $20,000 a year. Thats the way the world should work.
Teacher "X" teaches 5 classes. He teaches 3 Algebra classes, 1 Advanced Algebra class, and 1 remedial class. His first four classes are okay, but his last class is utter chaos!
Why?
Is it because the class has 43 students instead of 35?
Or maybe because the majority of the students don't speak English?
Could it be that it's late in the day and the kids are tired?
Or maybe, just maybe, the kids are DOWN-RIGHT LAZY?
Stop blaming the hard-working, dedicated teachers!
I would like to inform you of a job opening at McGavock High School in Nashville Tennessee.
An Algebra teacher, Mr.Donald Wood recently was let go . . . Perhaps, this is your opportunity to prove that you are just not an arm-chair quarterback. I want to see you do it! 3 months! That is all!
Hey, if you think you're qualified to evaluate teachers, then, you should be able to teach, right?
In foreign countries, disruptive students are EXPELLED for good! They are removed from the classroom, leaving the teacher and other students to concentrate on their education.
In America, loud, rude disruptive students are allowed to remain in the classroom, and disrupt the class!
Stop blaming the teachers! Blame the rude, disruptive, hip-hop, gangsta wanna-bees!
Why are other countries successful? BECAUSE THEY RESPECT THEIR TEACHERS! STUDENTS FOLLOW THE RULES!
@MsJanetWood I think that is part of the story but I don't think that getting rid of disruptive students is the solution. Often I think students are disruptive for good reason and it is in fact incompetent teachers that provoke them into "disruptive" action. Public Schools are a mess, they are driven by unproven "programs" and lifeless lesson plans meant to help along plodding and uninspired people who actually themselves never cared much about getting a real education in the first place.
I think EVERYONE should be paid according to their merits. For example, police officers working in high crime areas should be paid less, because obviously they are not getting rid of the criminals!
What? That's not fair! There are other FACTORS affecting the crime rate?
My point exactly! Teachers that are willing to drive to crime invested neighbors and risk their lives to teach minorities should be celebrated, not punished!
@MsJanetWood You make the assumption that great teachers should be evaluated based on their outcome as a universal standard. That's not the case. You can't compare a great teacher in a bad district vs. a "eh" teacher in a great one. All most people ask is for an evaluative process against their local peers that allows us to pay great teachers MORE then the poor ones, and to pay less to those who can learn on the job. That's it.
Tenure absolutely has value for children. It allows a good teacher the ability to try something that might fail, but also might really succeed. Liken this to sailing...if you're going to be a great sailor you must tip your boat over a few times, just to see where that tipping point is.
@Elin48 Your assessment of tenure is a good one; there are perceived benefits with allowing teachers to try new methods in the hopes of success. You also point out elsewhere your dislike of NCLB (I agree). However, in order to really reward those teachers who are effective and make a positive difference, we can't pay them the same as teachers underperform. Every profession has some people who aren't the best. Acknowledgement of that fact is not failure, and reward your best isn't a negative
@Elin48 this is, of course, the circumstance in all jobs where we rely on relationships. There are great general practitioner doctors and "eh" ones. Besides location, location, location - which determines your proximity to quality, we are of course also limited by who the people are. The goal is to try and universally lift the quality of all so that the randomness of geography and school districts still benefit each student.
@Elin48 Who should decide? If you mean, who gets to determine whether or not a teacher has a contract renewed or gets terminated, then the contract has to be evaluated by the administration and community. Now, I don't want people terminated just to fire them.. there should be a showing of cause. If you want to say administration sucks, yes, there are places where administration sucks.. been down that road.
@tmservo no, not about who gets terminated, but if you've never taught you probably don't realize that nothing is equal in education, meaning there are those children who are gifted, those who are average, those who are special ed, and mainstreamed in to regular ed, those who when they entered kindergarten were already two or more years behind their peers, those who were born addicted to alcohol or having a drug overdose at birth, those who have seizures, and in all of these possibilities....
@Elin48 Elin- I am probably more aware of this issue then you could appreciate. I admit, I come from a family with 3 gifted students; including one who had to sue her school district to follow the IEP and let her graduate early. A brother who's physical disability meant (before ADA) we had to sue the school to get education (despite him being a PhD now). And a father of a severely autistic child. The issues that face educators are serious, and students find themselves with good or bad
@Elin48 teachers based on their geographic location and their randomized class selection. Your issues with regards to the pressures on schools magnify the need to recruit and pay the "best". I have said repeatedly I believe part of that system to reward the best in the field is to not pay them the same as underachievers. In every field, there are some good, some bad.. from doctors to cops to teachers to mechanics. Rewarding the worst by keeping them in a job is a disservice.
@tmservo Everything you say in theory may work in a perfect world, in an idealized world, but our conversation is really going nowhere because we come to it from different perspectives. If we are going to pay accordingly to merit, then why the hell did we bail out the banks and the likes of Goldman Sachs. But, wait, according to your ideas...it was probably their elementary school teachers who are to blame. They must have been reared by the worst.
@Elin48 I'd ask you to not make assumptions about my perspective or beliefs; you speculate wildly about how I feel about Goldman Sachs or assume I blame teachers, of which at no point have I done anywhere in this conversation. I have also made no statement about rearing etc. in any of my posts.
@Elin48 No, I am just saying as a point of fact, nowhere in this thread have I pointed out that teachers are to blame, I have said nothing about Goldman-Sachs. Part of the real problem of these debates is we assume the other side to be some sort of evil, terrible people or that we can't relate to anything they say. I think you probably have a fund of knowledge I do not have; I have experiences you do not. And open discussion even if you disagree, can help everyone understand why. :)
Interesting point. I once lived with a high school math teacher about 10 years ago. he told me EVERY day he had kids bitch "why do we have to do this...when am I ever going to use this..." as if this debate would make him not give the assignments.
he told me his honors class was different (students, work ethic, attitude, etc). If we went on merit bullshit, the guy who was lucky enough to get honors math would have the best test scores
"Every profession has some people who aren't the best. Acknowledgement of that fact is not failure, and reward your best isn't a negative"
GOP solutions seem rather simplisti. A lot of evaluation is subjective, and they want it based on student evaluation, standard tests and grades?
If most the class is goofing off, not doing work, etc...the teacher who fails them is not bad and might be doing the best thing for them. he will be punished salary wise under GOP plans
@hipstermi I'm not sure I can comprehend what you are writing. If most of the class is goofing off would be a problem for that teacher to face. And also the parents. I'm far more concerned about rewarding the teachers who manages to make kids not "goof off" as well as come up with other opportunities for say, a teacher like one near us who managed to spit on a student and call her a whore. Maybe another profession is in line for her.
"And also the parents. I'm far more concerned about rewarding the teachers who manages to make kids not "goof off" as well as come up with other opportunities for say, a teacher like one near us who managed to spit on a student and call her a whore. Maybe another profession is in line for her"
SO what is your point? You list an extreme example and instead of reform or new disciplinary measures you want to trash the whole system?
@hipstermi I haven't anywhere called for a "Let's trash the system". I think a fair negotiation with a solid union benefits everyone. I think what you do is you institute a board of members. 3 Teachers, 2 Administration, 2 Community members. Reward teachers not based on ridiculous test scores or so called performance (which undervalues those who teach things like Drama, Special Education, Therapy, etc.) and off them higher rates. Then, on the other hand, allow disputes to be heard
@hipstermi Before an open board, and allow people to address them in the same manner that occurs in similar civil service unions. I think I'm getting hit with the "you agree with everything Rhee!" which isn't true. But I'm saying she is using a grain of truth to try and sway people to make radical changes, when if the grain of truth was wiped out, the rest of the argument falls apart like a house of cards
Tenure protects teachers from unscrupulous administrators and the political flavor of the time. Making teachers compete with each other, rather than work as a team will have no educational value for children. Making teachers compete over the more capable students and shun the less capable will be disasterous.
Teachers start becoming less valuable after about five years; therefore, young teachers should earn the top salaries, then start decreasing their pay after the fifth year until the 15th year when they should be phased out! You read it here first !
@DrKerrPhD you have not a clue here...even though you've a PhD following your name. I am by far a better teacher now than when I first started, except that I've been saddled with NCLB for the last 10 years.
Job Security? How about "tenure" and laziness being used as they should...the same. Tenure makes lazy teachers entitled to higher pay and not be able to be fired for being terrible. Teachers strike every year when they dont have summers off and 70 grand a year paycheck i guess. must be tough
@toothbeaver I have been teaching for 20 years. In the last 10 years I have been ham stringed by No Child Left Behind, told what and when to teach and then blamed for the results. How is it that the children themselves, and the parents are given the credit for advanced learners, but for the far below basic learners it's the teacher's fault.
@Elin48 How is it, you ask? It is that way because you teach in a country that does not truly value education, intellectual achievement, or parental responsibility of any kind. This is the land of the American Idol, run by corporate, globalist scumbags, and regardless of what political stripes they wear, they have no interest in a vibrant, well-educated middle class. NCLB and other "reforms" are designed to inhibit progress, to promote a one-size-fits-all dumbed-down society full of chattle.
@toothbeaver I make half of 70 grand a year in my 11th year with three degrees (Ed. Spec being the highest), I have never been in a teacher strike. As for "summers off", I look at it as "summer unemployment". Tenure is a joke, it means a district has to take a full month to eliminate me.
@toothbeaver How do you know? Are you a lazy teacher addicted to tenure? Your point is not documented and unfounded. It's doubtful you are or know any teachers, or these thoughts would not come from your lips.
@toothbeaver Hey tea-bagger have you ever set your lazy, lard ass in a classroom? Ever taught and dealt with kids for 7 hours a day? Nope..oh I thought so. And just shut the fuck up -- since you know nothing about teaching.
@JayCeeEss1337 Based on this article with the title of "D.C. Schools Chief Michelle Rhee Fights Union Over Teacher Pay" And the fact that the article states that the teachers could get increased pay based on their "efffectiveness". I would suggest that you don't understand the situation. Or maybe you should hold off on the koolaid guy.
@bobbycratchit Absolutely....something is terribly wrong with that woman. She's got some ax to grind, and definitely, I'd say she's in the wrong profession.
"At the end of the day what it boils down to is the fact that what is stopping our teachers from being the most highly compensated, urban educators in this country, is tenure. Something that has absolutely no educational value for children."
iratcross 3 weeks ago in playlist Educator motivators
some great inforamtion here thanks
TheSpikeystuff 1 month ago
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hotfingersandwich 1 month ago
@hotfingersandwich Fallacy.
mootant 20 hours ago
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hotfingersandwich 1 month ago
some great inforamtion here thanks
SuperDogbrown 1 month ago
brilliant video
distractionxx 1 month ago
very interesting thanks
thejameskan 1 month ago
Tenure is the biggest problem with public education!
anarchopablo1 2 months ago
Rhee is a liar who just wants to line her own pockets as she cozies up to her hedge fund backers and stuffs more than a million bucks a year into her private bank accounts.
Not everyone would shill for money. But Michelle Rhee does.
bnannylv 2 months ago
Just how does a fraud like Michelle Rhee live with herself??? She covered up allegations of child sexual abuse made against her now husband when she worked for his charter school in Sacramento, and she has only less than 3 years of actual classroom experience... She's nothing but a charlatan for the corporate right's decimation of public schools in America, and she has absolutely NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER.... She should be in PRISON, not given a PLATFORM....
bbbbmer 5 months ago
But firing teachers at will, without rightful due process is what Rhee? Good for students?! WTF! Rhee's goal is to destroy public education and teacher unions -- that simple
marcostar57 6 months ago
@marcostar57 That's NOT her goal dummy. I swear--teachers, tenured teachers, have none of the compassion and thoughtfulness that they're supposed to instill in their students. You need to look at it from the perspective of the GOOD (young) teachers out there (among the average, and the not-so-good), and consider how unfair it is for THOSE people, to sit and rot on the vine FOR NO OTHER REASON than the fact that they aren't as old as someone else.
JohnLeeMD 3 months ago
If it weren't for the "evil teachers' unions",
the "good, little children" would all go to the LIBRARY to STUDY and do their HOMEWORK!
They would also drink their milk and eat all their vegetables!
I'm still waiting for the T.V. reality show where Arne Duncan, Bill Gates, Michelle Rhee, Davis Guggenheim, et al. attempt to teach Remedial Math at a junior high in the inner-city!
Ha!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood well said Jane. Plus, it's never been about teachers, or what's best for the children, if it were children in this country would be truly taken care of from after their birth through college (or trade schools), but they are not, and in this system that Arne Duncan, Michelle Rhee and others are proposing it will be even less. It's obvious, and we should all know this by now that what is said by these kinds of people are actually smoke screens to their true intentions.
Elin48 6 months ago
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Michelle Rhee claims that she took 90% of her students from the 13th percentile to the 90th percentile or above in less than 2 years!
Isn’t that statistically impossible? “Normal Distribution”? “Bell Curve”?
Why hasn’t anyone interviewed her former students? Or their parents? Or her former principal? Or her former co-workers? Her fellow teachers?
I’m sure they all will have plenty to say about those scores!
Where's the proof of her academic success?
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
they should just privatize education. private schools vastly outperform public school
lvll138inrs 1 year ago
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@lvll138inrs
"they should just privatize education. private schools vastly outperform public school"
SOME do. Yet I can name one Catholic school I grew up near that was a joke.
Also, a study cited in TIME magazine titled "Are Private Schools Really Better?" Oct. 10,2007 cites a study by Center on Education Policy...that disagrees with you.
so what do you base YOUR opinion on? any data?
hipstermi 6 months ago
@lvll138inrs This is because private schools can pick and choose which children they accept. In public schools non fluent English language students take these tests. The children born addicted to drugs at birth, or with fetal alcohol syndrome go to public schools, the children whose parents are in prison, who have been neglected. The children in public schools actually when you compare apples to apples far out shine many in private schools.
Elin48 6 months ago
Yes, cocksucker. No educational value because once you got rid of tenure, you would start removing public schools one by one and replacing them with private. That's the goal. If you guarantee that such action won't be realized, everyone will jump on you boat, but you know damn well where this is going.
ninuxy 1 year ago
Hey teachers, want to have some CREDIBILITY in this argument? Then stand up and say you will give up your tenure.
befuturenow 1 year ago
@befuturenow Tenure allows teachers to take risks, become inspired and risk takers teach most imaginatively, and are by far better teachers. If it were not for tenure, most teachers would just play it safe. I'd compare this to sailing. My father would always tell beginning sailors that if you want to become a great sailor capsize your boat. This will let you know where the edge is, and this in turn gives the sailor more knowledge than the play it safe sailor.
Elin48 6 months ago
@Elin48 Thanks for the great explanation! It's sad there are so many dimwiited folks who fall for Rhee's demonization of teachers.
marcostar57 6 months ago
@Elin48 Your point is completely backwards. If a sailor capsizes their boat they learn how NOT to sail and the next time they sail, they do it correctly. Same goes for a bad teacher. They should get fired. They will then know that this is the WRONG way to teach. Next time they teach they will be better and better.
psiewert83 2 months ago
@psiewert83 Your logic is vague. Let's say there's a student whose home life is utter shit (alcoholic dad, hateful mom, brother in a gang, etc.) and who lives in a neighborhood full of bad influences.
You expect a teacher to transform this kid? Have you ever taught before. This "blame the teacher" mentality is nonsense. Can't you see the right is slowly pushing to make it impossible for teachers to organize/unionize and have a voice? We're slowly going back to medieval times and the serfs.
hotfingersandwich 1 month ago
@hotfingersandwich Yes i've taught before, and I understand that some kids are unteachable. But my point is that a teacher that tries as hard as she can to reach out to kids is paid the same as a teacher who doesnt give a fuck at all, doesn't work hard, and has horrible grades with his/her kids. You think that the shitty teacher should get to keep their job? As an Engineer I'm graded on personal performance, how hard I work, and outcome. All jobs should be graded the same way.
psiewert83 1 month ago
@psiewert83 Keep your eye on any politician (or their flunkies, one of which Rhee is) who say anything to the effect that they want to help the kids. There's usually ulterior motives. The deal here is a slow chipping away at unions and workers' protections. Unions are fucked up, too, but it's a lot better than being a flat-out plebe. "Can't work those extra two hours a day? Sorry, bud, better luck next time. You're fired!" We're close to going back to a medieval caste system, you know.
hotfingersandwich 1 month ago
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hotfingersandwich 1 month ago
@hotfingersandwich First off, I don't think teachers should be judged on test scores at ALL. They should be judged based on how much effort they put in. A principal should be watching and observing. If a teacher shows up late for work, has the Freshman in high school finger paint all day while she sits on Facebook, and lets the kids go early, that teacher should be disciplined. Just like at my job. If I slack off and someone catches me, I get fired.
psiewert83 1 month ago
@hotfingersandwich Additionally, I'm sick and tired of paying property taxes that go towards educating kids who have no interest in getting an education. I'm paying X amount of dollars a day for some thug to skip school and go sell drugs. Or have sex in the janitors closet. Or disrupt a classroom full of kids who WANT a good education. Those kids should be expelled immediately and never given an opportunity to join a school in that county again unless they pay.
psiewert83 1 month ago
@psiewert83 My mother in law is a 3rd grade teacher for example. She told me that last year this one kid that always made problems intentionally decided to pull down his pants and take a shit in the middle of the classroom. Because everyone is so PC today she had to stand there and let the kid finish and wasnt allowed to discipline him. They had to shut down the school so someone could clean it up. That kid cost the school $1000's and he was allowed to stay. Thats fucked up.
psiewert83 1 month ago
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black culture is the true problem. black kids should not have to have it imposed on them to work hard, not steal and not be a menace to society. this should be built into their culture and come from their parents. black culture glorifies a lack of education, violence, promiscuity, etc. and that's the REAL problem that no one is talking about
theherdmentality 1 year ago
Teacher "X" teaches 5 classes. He teaches 3 Algebra classes, 1 Advanced Algebra class, and 1 remedial class. His first four classes are okay, but his last class is utter chaos!
Why?
Is it because the class has 43 students instead of 35?
Or maybe because the majority of the students don't speak English?
Could it be that it's late in the day and the kids are tired?
Or maybe, just maybe, the kids are DOWN-RIGHT LAZY?
Stop blaming the hard-working, dedicated teachers!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood I don't blame teachers. Some of the best people I know are teachers. Having an autistic son, I value the hard work and dedication of that teacher. I value my HS Calculus teacher. I wish they were paid more. My HS History teacher who spent his time figuring out football plays while making us watch "Roots" for 3 weeks straight... yeah, he should have been canned. Get rid of tenure, and stop paying bad teachers the exact same as great ones.
tmservo 11 months ago
@MsJanetWood We arent blaming the hard working teachers. We are upset that our tax payers go to pay the insanely high salaries of the shitty teachers, who cannot be fired based on their performance or how hard they work. I'd rather have a system where a principal is responsible for observing, rating, and promoting teachers. Id have no problem paying a good teacher $150,000 a year and a shitty teacher either being fired or making $20,000 a year. Thats the way the world should work.
psiewert83 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Teacher "X" teaches 5 classes. He teaches 3 Algebra classes, 1 Advanced Algebra class, and 1 remedial class. His first four classes are okay, but his last class is utter chaos!
Why?
Is it because the class has 43 students instead of 35?
Or maybe because the majority of the students don't speak English?
Could it be that it's late in the day and the kids are tired?
Or maybe, just maybe, the kids are DOWN-RIGHT LAZY?
Stop blaming the hard-working, dedicated teachers!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
Dear Ms. Michelle Rhee,
I would like to inform you of a job opening at McGavock High School in Nashville Tennessee.
An Algebra teacher, Mr.Donald Wood recently was let go . . . Perhaps, this is your opportunity to prove that you are just not an arm-chair quarterback. I want to see you do it! 3 months! That is all!
Hey, if you think you're qualified to evaluate teachers, then, you should be able to teach, right?
Sincerely yours,
Ms. Janet Wood
(no relation to Mr. Donald Wood)
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
The reason the government sucks so much is because you never get fired. You might get transferred, reassigned, or even demoted. But fired? Rarely.
mtb416 1 year ago
In foreign countries, disruptive students are EXPELLED for good! They are removed from the classroom, leaving the teacher and other students to concentrate on their education.
In America, loud, rude disruptive students are allowed to remain in the classroom, and disrupt the class!
Stop blaming the teachers! Blame the rude, disruptive, hip-hop, gangsta wanna-bees!
Why are other countries successful? BECAUSE THEY RESPECT THEIR TEACHERS! STUDENTS FOLLOW THE RULES!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood I think that is part of the story but I don't think that getting rid of disruptive students is the solution. Often I think students are disruptive for good reason and it is in fact incompetent teachers that provoke them into "disruptive" action. Public Schools are a mess, they are driven by unproven "programs" and lifeless lesson plans meant to help along plodding and uninspired people who actually themselves never cared much about getting a real education in the first place.
BandofSorensons 1 year ago
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I think EVERYONE should be paid according to their merits. For example, police officers working in high crime areas should be paid less, because obviously they are not getting rid of the criminals!
What? That's not fair! There are other FACTORS affecting the crime rate?
My point exactly! Teachers that are willing to drive to crime invested neighbors and risk their lives to teach minorities should be celebrated, not punished!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
@MsJanetWood You make the assumption that great teachers should be evaluated based on their outcome as a universal standard. That's not the case. You can't compare a great teacher in a bad district vs. a "eh" teacher in a great one. All most people ask is for an evaluative process against their local peers that allows us to pay great teachers MORE then the poor ones, and to pay less to those who can learn on the job. That's it.
tmservo 11 months ago
Tenure absolutely has value for children. It allows a good teacher the ability to try something that might fail, but also might really succeed. Liken this to sailing...if you're going to be a great sailor you must tip your boat over a few times, just to see where that tipping point is.
Elin48 1 year ago
@Elin48 Your assessment of tenure is a good one; there are perceived benefits with allowing teachers to try new methods in the hopes of success. You also point out elsewhere your dislike of NCLB (I agree). However, in order to really reward those teachers who are effective and make a positive difference, we can't pay them the same as teachers underperform. Every profession has some people who aren't the best. Acknowledgement of that fact is not failure, and reward your best isn't a negative
tmservo 11 months ago
@tmservo Who decides which children each teacher gets?
Elin48 11 months ago
@Elin48 this is, of course, the circumstance in all jobs where we rely on relationships. There are great general practitioner doctors and "eh" ones. Besides location, location, location - which determines your proximity to quality, we are of course also limited by who the people are. The goal is to try and universally lift the quality of all so that the randomness of geography and school districts still benefit each student.
tbot888 11 months ago
@Elin48 Who should decide? If you mean, who gets to determine whether or not a teacher has a contract renewed or gets terminated, then the contract has to be evaluated by the administration and community. Now, I don't want people terminated just to fire them.. there should be a showing of cause. If you want to say administration sucks, yes, there are places where administration sucks.. been down that road.
tmservo 11 months ago
@tmservo no, not about who gets terminated, but if you've never taught you probably don't realize that nothing is equal in education, meaning there are those children who are gifted, those who are average, those who are special ed, and mainstreamed in to regular ed, those who when they entered kindergarten were already two or more years behind their peers, those who were born addicted to alcohol or having a drug overdose at birth, those who have seizures, and in all of these possibilities....
Elin48 11 months ago
@Elin48 Elin- I am probably more aware of this issue then you could appreciate. I admit, I come from a family with 3 gifted students; including one who had to sue her school district to follow the IEP and let her graduate early. A brother who's physical disability meant (before ADA) we had to sue the school to get education (despite him being a PhD now). And a father of a severely autistic child. The issues that face educators are serious, and students find themselves with good or bad
tmservo 11 months ago
@Elin48 teachers based on their geographic location and their randomized class selection. Your issues with regards to the pressures on schools magnify the need to recruit and pay the "best". I have said repeatedly I believe part of that system to reward the best in the field is to not pay them the same as underachievers. In every field, there are some good, some bad.. from doctors to cops to teachers to mechanics. Rewarding the worst by keeping them in a job is a disservice.
tmservo 11 months ago
@tmservo Everything you say in theory may work in a perfect world, in an idealized world, but our conversation is really going nowhere because we come to it from different perspectives. If we are going to pay accordingly to merit, then why the hell did we bail out the banks and the likes of Goldman Sachs. But, wait, according to your ideas...it was probably their elementary school teachers who are to blame. They must have been reared by the worst.
Elin48 11 months ago
@Elin48 I'd ask you to not make assumptions about my perspective or beliefs; you speculate wildly about how I feel about Goldman Sachs or assume I blame teachers, of which at no point have I done anywhere in this conversation. I have also made no statement about rearing etc. in any of my posts.
tmservo 11 months ago
@tmservo Really, how interesting. You think so, my goodness.
Elin48 11 months ago
@Elin48 No, I am just saying as a point of fact, nowhere in this thread have I pointed out that teachers are to blame, I have said nothing about Goldman-Sachs. Part of the real problem of these debates is we assume the other side to be some sort of evil, terrible people or that we can't relate to anything they say. I think you probably have a fund of knowledge I do not have; I have experiences you do not. And open discussion even if you disagree, can help everyone understand why. :)
tmservo 11 months ago
@Elin48
"Who decides which children each teacher gets?"
Interesting point. I once lived with a high school math teacher about 10 years ago. he told me EVERY day he had kids bitch "why do we have to do this...when am I ever going to use this..." as if this debate would make him not give the assignments.
he told me his honors class was different (students, work ethic, attitude, etc). If we went on merit bullshit, the guy who was lucky enough to get honors math would have the best test scores
hipstermi 6 months ago
@tmservo
"Every profession has some people who aren't the best. Acknowledgement of that fact is not failure, and reward your best isn't a negative"
GOP solutions seem rather simplisti. A lot of evaluation is subjective, and they want it based on student evaluation, standard tests and grades?
If most the class is goofing off, not doing work, etc...the teacher who fails them is not bad and might be doing the best thing for them. he will be punished salary wise under GOP plans
hipstermi 6 months ago
@hipstermi I'm not sure I can comprehend what you are writing. If most of the class is goofing off would be a problem for that teacher to face. And also the parents. I'm far more concerned about rewarding the teachers who manages to make kids not "goof off" as well as come up with other opportunities for say, a teacher like one near us who managed to spit on a student and call her a whore. Maybe another profession is in line for her.
tmservo 6 months ago
@tmservo
"And also the parents. I'm far more concerned about rewarding the teachers who manages to make kids not "goof off" as well as come up with other opportunities for say, a teacher like one near us who managed to spit on a student and call her a whore. Maybe another profession is in line for her"
SO what is your point? You list an extreme example and instead of reform or new disciplinary measures you want to trash the whole system?
hipstermi 6 months ago
@hipstermi I haven't anywhere called for a "Let's trash the system". I think a fair negotiation with a solid union benefits everyone. I think what you do is you institute a board of members. 3 Teachers, 2 Administration, 2 Community members. Reward teachers not based on ridiculous test scores or so called performance (which undervalues those who teach things like Drama, Special Education, Therapy, etc.) and off them higher rates. Then, on the other hand, allow disputes to be heard
tmservo 6 months ago
@hipstermi Before an open board, and allow people to address them in the same manner that occurs in similar civil service unions. I think I'm getting hit with the "you agree with everything Rhee!" which isn't true. But I'm saying she is using a grain of truth to try and sway people to make radical changes, when if the grain of truth was wiped out, the rest of the argument falls apart like a house of cards
tmservo 6 months ago
Tenure protects teachers from unscrupulous administrators and the political flavor of the time. Making teachers compete with each other, rather than work as a team will have no educational value for children. Making teachers compete over the more capable students and shun the less capable will be disasterous.
Nelson5011 1 year ago
@Nelson5011 Absolutely, you are 100% correct.
Elin48 1 year ago
Teachers start becoming less valuable after about five years; therefore, young teachers should earn the top salaries, then start decreasing their pay after the fifth year until the 15th year when they should be phased out! You read it here first !
DrKerrPhD 1 year ago
@DrKerrPhD you have not a clue here...even though you've a PhD following your name. I am by far a better teacher now than when I first started, except that I've been saddled with NCLB for the last 10 years.
Elin48 1 year ago
Rhee for President!
whatevalife6 2 years ago
Job Security? How about "tenure" and laziness being used as they should...the same. Tenure makes lazy teachers entitled to higher pay and not be able to be fired for being terrible. Teachers strike every year when they dont have summers off and 70 grand a year paycheck i guess. must be tough
toothbeaver 2 years ago 8
@toothbeaver I have been teaching for 20 years. In the last 10 years I have been ham stringed by No Child Left Behind, told what and when to teach and then blamed for the results. How is it that the children themselves, and the parents are given the credit for advanced learners, but for the far below basic learners it's the teacher's fault.
Elin48 1 year ago
@Elin48 How is it, you ask? It is that way because you teach in a country that does not truly value education, intellectual achievement, or parental responsibility of any kind. This is the land of the American Idol, run by corporate, globalist scumbags, and regardless of what political stripes they wear, they have no interest in a vibrant, well-educated middle class. NCLB and other "reforms" are designed to inhibit progress, to promote a one-size-fits-all dumbed-down society full of chattle.
AgaMbadi 1 year ago
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Elin48 1 year ago
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@toothbeaver how would you know? I bet you would not last a day in a classroom for all the work a teacher does. You obviously, haven't a clue.
Elin48 1 year ago
@toothbeaver The answer- three year contracts with a review in the second year. Pay good teachers what they are worth, but hold them accountable.
mpmcd81 1 year ago
@toothbeaver I make half of 70 grand a year in my 11th year with three degrees (Ed. Spec being the highest), I have never been in a teacher strike. As for "summers off", I look at it as "summer unemployment". Tenure is a joke, it means a district has to take a full month to eliminate me.
firebeetle71 1 year ago
@toothbeaver How do you know? Are you a lazy teacher addicted to tenure? Your point is not documented and unfounded. It's doubtful you are or know any teachers, or these thoughts would not come from your lips.
Elin48 11 months ago
@toothbeaver Hey tea-bagger have you ever set your lazy, lard ass in a classroom? Ever taught and dealt with kids for 7 hours a day? Nope..oh I thought so. And just shut the fuck up -- since you know nothing about teaching.
marcostar57 6 months ago
Yeah, what a great choice!! They can get higher pay but they have to give up their job security. Let's give M. Rhee the same "opportunity".
bobbycratchit 2 years ago
@bobbycratchit
The choice is between higher pay while retaining tenure, and much higher pay without tenure.
Lose - lose, eh?
JayCeeEss1337 1 year ago
@JayCeeEss1337 Based on this article with the title of "D.C. Schools Chief Michelle Rhee Fights Union Over Teacher Pay" And the fact that the article states that the teachers could get increased pay based on their "efffectiveness". I would suggest that you don't understand the situation. Or maybe you should hold off on the koolaid guy.
bobbycratchit 1 year ago
@bobbycratchit Absolutely....something is terribly wrong with that woman. She's got some ax to grind, and definitely, I'd say she's in the wrong profession.
Elin48 1 year ago
@Elin48 What's wrong with her exactly? Why do you say she is in the wrong profession?
BandofSorensons 1 year ago