US healthcare is the most overpriced and the most inefficient among developed countries.
In a profit orientated system like the US one it's not profitable for the doctor and the pharma companies to cure the patient using the most efficient medical procedures but the most expensive one and to perform as many as possible unnecessary procedures just to increase the bill
In a profit orientated system doctors aren't paid to keep patients healthy.The more sick people are the more doctors earn.
I love all this propoganda BS that American news shows about Canadian healthcare, poking a a country that provides a longer lifespan for its citizens by at least 3 years longer than the average American, 85%+ of Canadian are satisfied with our healthcare, don`t believe the lies of waiting 4-6 months to see a specialist etc etc, if you`ve got a serious disease or whatever you`re seen ad treated right away. Find it arrogant for the American public to criticize another country before looking at you
@iLuvBarRefaeli - Wait times are insanely long in Canada and the JCUSH report shows that Canadians tend to complain about the waits they have for care. This is simply fact. Now if you are OK with waiting, then cool. Some others don't want to wait. Americans suffer from lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians... which one could argue is the worst way to die.
@broggi007 Canadians do not wait for urgent care and common care. We have some wait times for non-urgent procedures like hip replacement. Canada also has lower cancer mortality rates per population.
@MadHabber93 - According to JCUSH, the cancer mortality rates are, indeed, lower in the US than in Canada. Also, define "urgent"... Emergency care? Ok, I might level with you. But operations that aren't emergency can still need urgent care. Like removing tumors and getting MRIs to diagnose ailments. These things save people's lives and when they have to wait months at a time between GP and specialist, people die.
@broggi007 According to the latest cancer care stats, that can be found at cancerDOTca for Canada and cancerDOT org for the States, they are not.
And no, urgent surgeries are done...urgently. For example, my colleague tore her achillies heal, went to ER and was on the operating table in a couple of hours. Our friends daughter went in showing signs of stroke, had an MRI immediately. There are NO studies showing Canadians are dying on wait lists. GP's ask for immedate appt's if deemed urgent.
@MadHabber93 - I can't link on YouTube but search this in Google - "statistics show Canadian healthcare" - & click on the first result from USA today. The data was provided by The Fraser Institute, one of YOUR Canadian think tanks. People may not be dying but 9 months to get treatment from an Orthopedic Surgeon? 8 weeks with a brain surgeon. who needs those right? That's why Ontario sent patients to the US due to a shortage of Neurosurgeons. I can source that too if you'd like haha
@MadHabber93 - Also, as to your cancer statistics. I'm sorry to say that you are either misinformed or blatantly lying. The OECD publishes this information every year. I can't link it but for 2011, Canada had a higher cancer mortality rate for colon, breast and cervical cancer. Trying reading some objective data from the OECD
@broggi007 For your time of quotes. A. The Fraser Institute is a HIGHLY biased source that is VERY much in favour of for profit health insurance B. Their survey is bogus as they only sample a small number of specialist across Canada C. Their quoted wait times are for non-urgent referrals. All specialists hold numerous spots for week in their schedule for urgent referrals. My friend in Ontario, in the last 3 years, has had 3 brain surgeries. THe first urgently done when diagnosed.
@broggi007 And how long do those wait in the States when they can't afford the MRI, let alone the procedure needed following the MRI??? The JCUSH even shows that more Americans had unmet needs than Canadians. I wonder why?
@MadHabber93 - Again, the number of people that can't "afford" an MRI is less than the number of people that never get MRIs in Canada because the 3 machines in the country are all booked up
@broggi007 THat's weird, since I waited all of 10 days for an MRI on my sinuses. You are believing B.S. data from B.S. sources like Fraser.
And we ALL get an MRI, the same can not be said for the U.S. population. What good is more MRI'S if you can't afford the scan, let alone the operation.
Again, your JCUSH source showed that Americans had MORE unmet healthcare needs than Canadians.
@MadHabber93 - It's a good thing you were one of the lucky few in canada that got to use one of the MRI machines. Too bad the same can't be said about the unlucky ones in Canada. But hey.. it's free right? Sure taxes are through the roof and the wait times, that aren't even dismissed by the Canadian government, but hey.. everyone's got it!
@broggi007 Our taxes are not through the roof. Its another myth you buy into. Our income tax rates are very similar in Canada. You add up your premiums and all taxes, and compare them to our taxes, we are way ahead. And Canadians know its not free, but we NEVER have to worry about how to pay for a deductible, a copay, or the coinsurance on a large bill. And that's those WITH insurance.
Your problem, you drink the Koolaide from the wrong people.
@MadHabber93 - Haha.. you got to be kidding me. A family making $150,000 in Quebec will pay 38% in taxes where as in the US that family will only pay 20%... $27,000 may not sound like a lot to you, but it's a lot to most people.
@broggi007 Ha ha. Sorry, I work for a Quebec company and actually make that amount and paid 32% in total income taxes before write offs. Went down to 25% after. And I have many U.S. colleagues making similar numbers, and they are not only paying 20% in income taxes.
@broggi007 Sorry, just did a tax calculator for Michigan, based on that $ amount. Total income tax came to 27.4%, not including social security. That is NOT 18%. Again, add in health premiums, co-pays, deductibles and co-insurance, we are ahead. A few States would be lower than that due to no State Tax.
@MadHabber93 - I'm not a tax attorney, and I'll guess you aren't either. So, this deduction game carries little merit for this conversation. Both systems have their loopholes, and I willing to wager the US has more loopholes by the nature of our system. Let's take a family in each of one of our largest cities (Montreal & Los Angeles) - I have sent you a link in your inbox to an Excel file. Read it and tell me what looks wrong.
@broggi007 Agreed, the countries have different loopholes, and the States have a bit more. But to compare to Montreal is not exactly the best thing, as Quebec is the one of the highest taxed provinces in Canada. Not to mention, it also depends what you get out of those taxes as well. As much as I hate paying too much taxes, Quebec has some of the broadest social programs in the country as well. If you compare loopholes, you must compare what the benefits of those taxes.
@MadHabber93 - Come now, comparing an Los Angeles to Montreal is completely fair. They are both expensive places to live and are highly populated and affect a good number of people. C'mon... don't go sour on me lol
@broggi007 For example, in Quebec, all medications are covered under their system in addition to all healthcare costs. They have almost fully subsidized daycare for all. They pay like $25/week for daycare until they age of 4 or 5. Their University tuition costs are lower to the rest of the country, and waaaaaaay lower than U.S. post secondary schools. That's 3 things off the top I think of.
@MadHabber93 - I don't doubt all of the benefits that come from all the taxes you pay. In fact, I would be extremely surprised if your benefits were anything less. But that doesn't change the fact that taxes are higher. That's all this was about. Not the benefits that come with the taxes.. just whether or not they were higher and they clearly are. The perks look nice... But I'd rather have th choice than be forced to pay into something I'll never use
@broggi007 I'd rather have the choice too, except when it comes to healthcare. But again, comparing a city in the highest taxed province is not fair based on the benefits.
And yes, we have a National Sales tax of 5%. And by the looks of your ever ballooning debt, you guys better get one soon too. :)
This is proof that the private sector too can fail if burdened with the kind of bureaucracy that comes with thousand-page health care bills. If all health care providers were as free from overbearing harmful (though well intended) regulations, as chiropractors and other health/wellness professions, they would be able to innovate and drive costs down. As with corporations, if you mess enough with anything, it won't work properly. This is not to say there should be NO regulation necessarily.
@theredscourge If you have no family doctor in Canada and you need to see someone about a non-critical issue, you can expect to wait HOURS to see anyone. I found this out when I went to go figure out why my stomach was hurting for days. Later I went to a chiropractor about finger numbness (heavy computer user), and they gave me an EMG scan, gave me tons of data to look at, gave me one of about 12 quick adjustments I'll need to get better, and it was about 30 mins and $40. Difference? Regulation!
@theredscourge I've had to use a walk in clinic a number of times over the years, when my family doc was over booked, and never waited more than an hour and a half.
@MadHabber93 I had to wait 4 hours, and then spent another 2 hours total between brief stints of actual attention by professionals totalling under 20 mins. The amount of time they spent on me I felt to be sufficient, but the 6 total hours of waiting time was ridiculous. True, I was not in critical condition or anything, but I was in a very new and fancy looking facility in Calgary, Alberta.
@theredscourge So, based on your one experience, we should do what?? Scrap the whole system?? I waited 15 hours in a Private for profit hospital in Dallas. New or private does not mean they won't ever be very busy. I'm just glad I live in a country where I don't have to worry about going into an ER because I couldn't afford it.
Your original premise that we all wait hours for non-critical issues is just not true.
@MadHabber93 I just think we should have a two tiered system, because then only the private organizations that can beat the government system will survive, meaning the government system will only collapse if all the good doctors move to the private facilities, meaning higher wages, meaning people are willing to pay it, meaning more success than the government system. Government is supposed to fix broken markets, not prevent good ones.
@theredscourge Our system does not have enough docs for single payer, how would we have enough for a 2 tier?? Answer: We wouldn't. Like you said, too many docs would cross over serving the wealthy few, and leave the rest behind. And you think that's a good thing?? What happens if you lose your job and can't afford treatment? Or get a disease and doesn't allow you to work, how can you get treatment if the public system is gone? YOu consider the majority getting no care a success?? Wow.
@MadHabber93 My mom worked at the University of Calgary's medical continuing education department. She talked with many in the medical education field, and it was made clear to her on several occasions that the doctors band together to limit the number of graduates from the faculty of medicine each year. The reason there are not enough doctors is they want to artificially inflate their wages.
History has proven that corporations are more efficient than governments, that they do more with less.
@theredscourge History has not shown that. It depends on the gov't and the corporations. Do you know how many corporations go bankrupt in a given year??
And even if you what you say is true, which is doubtful, how will private for profit insurance change the number of grads?? It won't.
@MadHabber93 Check your history. Do you know WHY corporations go bankrupt? Because more efficient competitors force them out of the market, or because they take a loss that they were not insured against, or because a disaster physically destroys their operation. Corporations tend to make less risky investments because their funds are limited. Governments go bankrupt less often for a reason - they just raise taxes or nickel and dime the citizen whenever their strategies fail.
@theredscourge So I want my docs to go out of business? Or hospitals?? Are you for real?
Healthcare is not about a product being sold on shelf, its about HEALTHCARE. And private insurance won't do jack shit to help our system, with the exception of the wealthy few.
@MadHabber93 When has it ever happened that an entire industry that was necessary to the people has ever acrosss the board gone bankrupt? The reason you go bankrupt is either bad fortune, in which case insurance will save you usually, or because of bad plans, in which case your competitors merely pushed you out by offering a better service. Should we reward inefficiency and bad plans just to prevent a single bankruptcy? Good doctors will have no trouble being hired by a good company.
@theredscourge Do you know how many Americans go bankrupt every year due to medical bills?? Over 50% of all bankruptcies, with 70% of them actually having insurance. Insurance for profit companies want one thing, profit. You then become a liability if you have the misfortune of getting sick.
Why would I want a system where the insurance 'might' cover it. Our system pays for it EVERY time.
BTW, private for profit insurance never saves you, the doctor does.
@MadHabber93 That's because they don't have a public option, and because of the lack of innovation due to no real competition. The public option was the only part of the Obama bill that would have had the capability to shake things up a bit, the rest was just yet another thousand pages of red tape and barrier to entry to the market. The more you regulate, the harder it is for new guys to come in and put the expensive alternatives out of business.
@theredscourge The public option would have been good for the Americans. But has nothing to do with our system.
And no, the provinces with mandated car insurance is not the most. Manitoba's is WAY more than Ontario, and I'm willing to bet more than provinces with gov't mandated rates. Do you have a clue how much more we pay here?? Our 'real' competition has resulted in the highest premiums we ever had.
@MadHabber93 Read my other post. Private insurance companies sue the government when accidents or wrecks are caused due to the roads either being full of potholes or not cleared of snow and ice, or not built properly. The government insurance company does not care, it just pays out everything that happens, and does not notice the savings incurred due to improving the roads.
@theredscourge Show me where private insurance companies sue the gov't. for bad roads. Where are you getting this from?? And gov't insurance companies just won't pay out everything. Then why don't we all sue them in that case.
Did you ever think that roads suck in Manitoba due to the heavy freeze and thaw every year and what that will do to a road system. Your premise is just way off.
@MadHabber93 These sorts of lawsuits do not make the news because they are a dime a dozen, I'd have to spend hours poring over some government records site, assuming it exists. Only sensationalist headlines make the news such as "porn star sues government". Show me proof that the roads are not better in a financially comparable region of Canada which instead has private insurance companies. Why is it just now that you ask for proof yet not before, because you have nowhere further to go?
@theredscourge I find it funny that you ask me for proof of one province having better roads than others to prove a stupid theory you have about insurance. Spare me. You made the original claim, so back it up. ALong with your lawsuit claim. Both are unfounded and ridiculous connections.
@theredscourge Dude, you made the ridiculous claim that roads in provinces with private insurance are better than those with public. Let me be clear, so there is no confusion on your part. THERE IS NO FUCKING CONNECTION to that. If you can prove otherwise, I'll buy you a beer. A really expensive one. I get to Calgary quite often, my wife is from there.
This coming from a guy that wants the public health system to collapse. One word for you. IDIOT!!
@MadHabber93 It's not ridiculous, you just have to drive through to see it. The have-not provinces are the ones that vote NDP and Bloq and the haves are the ones that vote Conservative and to a lesser degree Liberal. It doesn't take rocket science to figure it out.
I never said I want the public system to collapse, I want it to be affordable, and I want it to be replaced when there is something better to replace it with. As long as innovation is stifled though that will be never.
@MadHabber93 Oilsands oil is actually rather expensive to extract, though there are a fair amount of conventional wells too. Saskatchewan and Newfoundland also have fairly substantial oil deposits, but for the most part they are either unexplored or undeveloped, due to the higher corporate taxes, government deincentives, and all the attention and subsidy money that go to the farmers and fishers. All it took in the 70s to decimate Alberta was "wonderful" Trudeau, an NDPer who ran Liberal.
@MadHabber93 It would be a nice thought that the people could sue the government for theoretical losses due to not having a competitive marketplace, but so many people wouldn't even consider the possibility. I don't remember the army digging out Winnipeg after a snowfall, but I know this sort of thing is not new to Toronto, so I have to assume things are not worse in that regard in Manitoba, especially considering snow requires moisture, and Ontario has far more freshwater lakes.
@MadHabber93 don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of corporations, I am just more a fan of them than of governments. When government power has no control over the markets, there is no government for the rich business owners to bribe, so they can't use that as an easy way to rub out their competitors, they have to compete for the dollars of the people to stay afloat.
@theredscourge Government's role is supposed to be to protect the freedom of its citizens from wrongdoing of each other, or foreign aggressors. If you make a stock market investment and lose your money, that is your problem you were free to risk your money or not risk your money, and you chose to risk your money, and lost. The finance sector got into a rats nest of regulation to stop their competitors and regulation to "benefit the people" that was not based on sound economics, so they messed up
@theredscourge To protect...exactly. And allowing private for profit insurance will not protect its citizens. It would allow a 'foreign aggressor'. I agree with the rest of your post regarding the market.
@MadHabber93 In Canada, the provinces with government mandated auto insurance are the ones where insurance costs the most. The reason is that the private companies in the other provinces sue the government every time accidents are caused that could have been prevented by proper maintenance of the roads, so they make sure the roads are good and cleared of snow and ice, and accidents go down. This helps the companies' bottom lines, and since there is REAL competition in auto insurance, prices fall
In Canada, our Healthcare is the second worst in the developed world, after the US. That is because it is the second most privatized in the world. Everything is privatized except for insurance for diagnosis and emergency care.
You still have to get coverage for medicine in Canada. You are not covered. Dentists are not covered. And hospitals and clinics are all private.
If Americans want to aim for a good healthcare system, they should aim higher than Canada.
@poyani You are basing 2nd worst based on an outdated, flawed WHO study. When looking at healthcare outcomes, ameniable mortality in particular, Canada ranks very high. And yes, hospitals are private, but not for profit. Things are similar in Europe. And many Euro countries have private insurance for medical bills, that we don't. In addition, its not just diagnosis & emergency care that is public, ALL hospital medical care and medication in hospital is covered.
@poyani I agree with you that they should look to other countries for a model of UHC, ours isn't the best in the world. Not even the top 10 or 20. But we're not second to last and we're usually ranked over the US. More people receive healthcare per capita in Canada than they do in the US. Our healthcare saves more people.
@poyani : You think this way becasue you cannot tell the difference between healthcare and MEDICAL CARE. USA has the BEST MEDICAL CARE in the world. Only reason why USA's HEALTHCARE is messed up is because the GOVERNMENT messed it up with over regulation.
@pmango1000 Can you show us links, reports or studies supporting your claim that the U.S. has the best 'medical' care. Opinions don't mean a whole lot.
@pmango1000 Having the Best medical care is irrelevant. Having access to health care is much more important. There are innumerable studies out there which show that Americans avoid using health care because of the cost burden it places on them. The ones who have to use healthcare because of illnesses undergo bankruptcies.
US government actually doesn't regulated healthcare as much as they do in other western countries. If you care about life expectancy, America is far behind most of Europe.
I know a lot of Canadians get upset that they have to wait to receive health care. And yes, waiting lists are shorter in countries that don't have universal coverage, but that's only because most people in those countries will never get the care they need. We're lucky to all have access, and that it's so affordable.
I guess that depends on the people on the room and what they consider to be "terrible." Most Canadians are very happy with their healthcare system, as indicated by a poll done by CMA and by what most Canadians that are interviewed on the subject have said.
I'm Canadian and what I've noticed is that a lot of people get their Canadian identity from being "not-American". We're constantly being reminded that we're better than Americans. Our system MUST be better because they are American and we are Canadian. Our health care system is not the best and it has a lot of issues. People wait months on waiting lists for certain procedures. That's because the prevailing opinion is its better for everyone to get bad health care than some to get better HC.
@phil8888 What do you mean 'bad' healthcare? Canada's healthcare outcomes are right up there with any other country. Just look at cancer survival rates. Yet we never have to worry about how to pay a bill, or put off seeing our doc because we either can't afford the appointment or the diagnosis he/she might discover that would lead to even greater costs. To say the healthcare one receives in a Canadian hospital is somehow subpar to one in the States is just false.
@phil8888 That's because we don't. Its a myth. Read the study Phantoms in the Snow, which showed and concluded that Canadians going south for care is like a tip with no iceburg.
While in 2007, 750,000 Americans went abroad for care they couldn't afford at home, with that number predicted to go into the MILLIONS last year.
@phil8888 The people who go to the states are the ones who can afford the treatment, do you really think poor people can afford care in the united states?? I have had numerous operations in canada one very serious when I was 13 I got treated right away was in the hospital for a month and the cost to me was NOTHING. Yes our health care is paid through taxes but in all honesty I would never trade Canadian Health Care for American Health Care any day of the week, Canadians Health is Not For Sale
I don't know how much Americans pay for healthcare but I bet it's a lot more than the $56 per month that I pay. My father had a congestive heart failure (born with faulty valve), a pre-existing condition he would not be able to buy insurance in US. In the last 10years of his life, He had open heart surgery to fix the valve, then had a defibrillator put in (that alone Im told is $40,000 US), and dialysis for 2 years. We would have been bankrupted in the US.
Canadians living in the United States don't generally have a high opinion of Canadian social programs! The Canadian health care system works brilliantly. The downside is wait times. In America the principle exists that if you can pay for it you should have the right to buy it, so if you have lots of money you can buy the world's best health care any time you need it. In Canada you will be told to wait your turn. This works better for more than 80% of the people served by the system.
@mcbain434444 I see arguments on both sides. Canada does clearly need to do better in the area of wait times and prioritizing surgeries, and recruiting health care professionals, but if you create a second "stream" of health care delivery you are taking doctors out of the first stream and lengthening the wait times of others. The most important thing is emphasizing prevention over cure. The second thing is recruiting more health care professionals, which requires an affordable education system.
@neilyvanneily Not very good health care though :(. Just simply not as many resources available in our healthcare as there is in the States and nobody looks to socialized medicine to bring about advances in medicine. America does that fortunately. No system is perfect.
@mcbain434444 Fair. I look at it as a straightforward tradeoff. You can either have: costly-but-highly-advanced healthcare that generally excludes the poor and lower middle class. Or you can have: universal but less fancy healthcare. Which system to choose? I say look at health *outcomes*--the only objective measure. The Canadian population is in general healthier than the American population. So their system is better. (Of course, we'd have to control for many other variables blah blah...)
@neilyvanneily - yes there are issues with the Canadian system, but the US is not automatically more advanced. There are heart surgeons in Vancouver that have pioneered stent treatments etc. otherwise I agree with your point, the US pays more for healthcare (per capita) than any other country in the world but in terms of health and life expectancy they are behind Canada.
I've been living in Canada for over 15 years now and have paid THOUSANDS of dollars into this bullshit ponzi scheme and have used the service ONCE!. While other freeloaders use it anytime they get a nose bleed. It's disgusting - the government steals my money without my permission and then distributes it to others because I'm incompetent enough to decide where my money is spent best - this is their view point I suppose.
@zdrux Here's a suggestion. Move!! You'd be the first one to cry in your cornflakes when you do need services and you have to pay an arm and a leg for it. I always love the 'gov't stealing my money' horseshit. Then don't expect roads, bridges, quality education, infrastructure, police, etc.
And what freedom of choice? Paying taxes? Move to Somolia or Saudi Arabia. They don't have taxes there. Hey, I hear they are now allowing women the vote. Very progressive. Sounds devine.
@MadHabber93 I've paid for everything myself my entire life, so I don't know why I'd suddenly break down and cry about it. It's called taking responsibility for yourself. Secondly, roads and and bridges are not paid through income taxes, I see you don't quite understand the way it works. Road, gasoline, and property taxes pay for those things - there's one difference, I can chose not to pay those, but I cannot chose to have my money taken from me for my work (income tax). This is all new to you.
@zdrux You've paid for the roads, the bridges, the police, garbage pick up, transit, education?? Road and bridges aren't paide through income taxes?? Really?? They are financed through the provincial and federal gov'ts. They are paid through both income and sales taxes. And a tax is a tax. Property taxes only pay for local roads, which still get grants from the federal and provincial level. And if you don't want income taxes, like I said MOVE!! Somolia must be heaven to you!!
@zdrux If you dont like it then leave Canada go to the states and pay for your own medical insurance problem solved and quit bitching whatever happend for caring for the common man?? guess you never learned that
@zdrux That is what happens with a universal health care system its there for when you need it, your statement is the basic definition of being selfish and having the mentality of every man for himself. If you dont want to pay for everyones misfortunes thats fine I have two solutions for you either dont pay taxes or go to the states and purchase your own health insurance plain and simple. Your Statement that "why do I have to pay for everyones misfortunes" is such a disgusting statement
@zdrux I also assume your not in public school-why should you have to pay for kids to attend public school, I also assume your not in the military-why should you have to pay for national defence or to keep the country safe when we are not at war, i assume your not a police or firefighter-why should you have to pay for 911 services, i assume you dont drive on every road- why should you have to pay for people to drive on proper roadways, cont.......
@TheRevolutionCanada cont.... your argument is pretty dam disgusting and im totally shocked your actually canadian no person in canada that appreciates universal health care would think the way you do. What I also suggest is if your soo against have to pay for other peoples misfortunes in your words, next time your drive by a hospital go into an emergency room and find someone who has been mangled in a car accident and ask them "why I should pay for your care"- I would love to hear the response
@TheRevolutionCanada I should have to pay for my OWN kids to attent school, nothing wrong with that. Military and police/firefighter spending can come from sales taxes and tarrifs (14% HST ought to be enough), and roads are built using gasoline tax, driver's license fees, sticket renewals, I'll just assume you weren't aware of this.
You know what the main trend in those are? They're all voluntary and I don't have to pay for them when/if I don't use them.
@zdrux I am totally aware of all of that, you seem that you honestly wanna pick and choose where your taxes go and dont go thats called being totally selfish to your common man, haha "CAN" come from sales taxes but it all doesnt just come from sales taxes. Are you gonna answer the question when your gonna be going to the hospital telling patients in the emergency room why you should have to pay for their treatment?? your attitude is soo typical of what some americans feel you should live there
@zdrux canadian health care is never gonna change it will always be a universal model, if there was a change you would see a complete revolution in this country no one would stand for a for profit health care system. You either better get use to it or in what i said before leave the country and live in the united states those are your two options, honestly your mind-set is completely misguided and pretty selfish, universal health care is a ponzi scheme HAHA my god that is the funniest thing ever
@TheRevolutionCanada That's fine, but then don't take my choice of not participating away and call it a free country or call yourself a free individual when the only choice you have is either pay up, or don't hold a job. You're free to hold your opinion and I respect that, just don't be a hypocrite when you say it's not a ponzi scheme. Your income tax is paying for your grandma's care, that by definition is a ponzi scheme, the system is out of money, the young are paying for the old.
@zdrux The difference is I dont mind paying for my grandmothers Health Care through my taxes that is what is called being a caring individual unlike yourself. This is a free country and I am a free individual if you dont like it why dont you go to somolia and see what choices and what kind of society you could have there, people like you dont exactly realize how good you have it.
@zdrux Move to the States, hope you find a job, when you don't and can't afford insurance or healthcare and then get sick then YOU will finally understand. Good luck.
@MadHabber93 lol you guys are all the same, just spouting off random things but can't actually debate logical points. I guess you are just ignorant.. I'm sure your heart is in the right place thought.
@zdrux THere's no debating millions of Americans that fall into my description that simply can't afford care. That's not random, that's fact you ignore. Very telling.
IF the Canadian health care system is so good why is it that the Prime Minister/Governor of Quebec or whatever province had to leave Canada to come to this country for medical care??????
@TheJboogie314 It was the Premier of Newfoundland. The filthy RICH Premier. He went to Miami, to a hospital that is 5 miles from his Florida condo. He was much closer to New York or Maine, so their hospitals must suck then too, right? He also could have had the procedure done in any major Canadian hospital. Let's see, a 12 week recovery in a Toronto hotel in the middle of winter or his posh Florida condo? Hmmm.
@Beartit69 What does his being rich have to do with it? Quite simply he chose to have the procedure in the US not Canada...probably b/c he would have either been in a wating line in Canada or b/c the health care system in the US has world renowned hospitals and Canada doesn't. Peopel travel from all over the world to go to; Mayo Clinic, Harvard, John's Hopkins, Duke, etc. I've not heard of too many traveling to Canada's hospital other than if they thought they could get something "free."
@TheJboogie Rich has nothing to do with it? Really? So, if he wasn't rich, would he go ALL the way to FLorida where he owns his condo? Here are the facts. He needed mitral valve replacement surgery. A procedure PIONEERED in Toronto's Peter Munk Cardiac Centre. A hospital that has treated American patients & trained American doctors on the procedure. NO WAITS.
For not travelling to Canada, in 1 year alone, 60,000 American residents travelled to Ontario for care they couldn't afford at home.
@Beartit69 Dude your facts are all jacked up. He wanted the minimally invasive surgery which is done through your armpit, which is in contrast to the open heart surgery version normally performed. Again, a technique developed in the US.
The guys exact words were "I DID NOT SIGN AWAY MY RIGHTS TO THE BEST POSSIBLE HEALTH CARE WHEN I ENTERED POLITICS."
There is no such thing as FREE HEALTHCARE. Im not rich, but I do want everyone to take their damn hands out of my wallet.
@TheJboogie314 DUDE, I've known about the story since the day it was announced he was going. Its called mitral valve replacement therapy where one of the Pioneering Centers was the Peter Munk Cardiac Care Centre in Toronto.
But it doesn't matter where it was pioneered, at it was readily available with no wait times across Canada, except his small province. An interview with him on Canadian T.V. revealed he didn't even know it was available across the country.
That is weird cause we don't have private health care in Ontario do we?Thought we have only socialize medicine so how did 60,000 American residents travel to Ontario for care they could not afford at home.
Lacking a national health care system of their own, thousands of Americans are tapping into Canada's -- illegally.
A report prepared for Ontario's Health Minister indicated that from August 1992 to February 1993, 60,000 medical claims had been made on behalf of patients who held American drivers' licenses.
I'm canadian and I certainly don't want an american-like healthcare system. Krugman was just unlucky because everybody I know in Canada like the healthcare we have. Sure, there is some probleme here and there but it's mainly because we are running out of nurse and doctors.
I think it's because the university's studies in medicine are not accessible enough. It's really hard to enter in medicine because you need the best grades. It's not everybody that can make it. It's also very long before you get your diploma. It can take up to seven years before you can finally work.
But things are getting better. There is more and more nurse than there was five years ago. If we keep going. The problems on the nurse side are going to be solved soon.
@Aanthaf Well, I think you're right it is hard to get into medical school. Don't you think that's a good thing? Do you really want someone with a 2.0 operating on you?
Now, nurses are another story. I'm sure you are getting more nurses b/c nursing school, at least in comparision to medical school, is EASY.
You are always going to have fewer doctors than nurses b/c not as many people can or want to do that. Its basic supply and demand.
It's not only supply and demand. The reason why there is more nurse is because there was a lot of advertising for nurse formation.
I agree that there will always have more nurse than doctor but I think it's possible to attract more people to medicine school with the good promotions like they did with the nurses.
ofcourse the next question is, what type of system would you Canadians prefer? None but the wealthy would ask for a system that looks like USA. While most people arnt happy with what they have, they would typically not give it up.
Its like what Churchill said about democracy, 'its the worst system except all the others'.
very few americans actually pay for their own health care, it is either the government or their employers purchase government subisided health insurance
@krillin876 Right. I realize they wouldn't normally go to emerg and pay because emergency time as for raw cost is in the neighborhood of $ 8,000 an hour down there.What causes these bills are the huge deductables.Some are more ,some are less. Beyond the one or two k there is coverage if it serious enough to get you there.Daily needs don't get you there so you pay.I have many testimonials of average people going through this.I would like to here the ones that aren't this bad
CANADIAN health care actually have LESS regulations than USA, it is a less socialized system, many drugs you can buy without a script, therefore drugs are much cheaper than here in USA where they are produced
I'm canadian, and this was hilarious! I have no doctor, btw, because I can't find one who will take patients. My last doctor retired when he was 80 years old, because he knew that when he retired he'd be leaving his patients without a doctor.
Oh Paul, you silly man. You should have noticed the self-selection bias. What kinds of Canadians are going to come to the Rockefeller Plaza in NYC to listen to this panel? You have to remember your audience isn't necessarily indicative of the country as a whole. There's really no excuse for this.
@tindallpe Personally, I love Krugman, and thinks he's right on the issue of health care-but that does not excuse leaving himself open to pwnage. If you're going to use rhetorical tools (and, yes, that's what this attempt was), make sure you're in a setting that will allow them to work. Oiy.
@MadHabber93 He made me pee in a cup then gave me a prescription for flowmax.I was in and out and 5 minutes.I got my bill in the mail.2,500 bucks for 5 minutes? oh i forgot 500 for the ambulance ride cause i couldnt walk due to a kindey stone.
@MadHabber93 •I'm glad you're letting them have it They're just rabbid tokeep that bullshit system.
Here’s another one from your precious system from an American What the hell is this?
• So sick of everyone bitching about healthcare/No one is to blame but doctors and hospitals.Everyone could afford it even it didnt cost so much.I went to the hospital and seen a doctor for 5 minutes
@mgallant01 Hey, thanks. Seeing that your American, your opinion on the subject means FUCK ALL. Foolish is saying a system sucks that you probably have never used. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stone.
@mgallant01 ohh It's the stupid "Trailer Park Boy "that doesn't know Fuck All. How many American kids died today because you wouldn't let them see a doctor....HMM. You people are idiots.
That'sjust what they need;real evidence to prove the Canadian healthcare system doesn't work.I've been through it my familys' been through it and it does work.He could have asked Do Canadians go bankrupt because they can't pay for health care?No but 50%of bankruptcy in the US is a result of having to pay for health care .Is everyone in Canada covered?Yes Does anyone lose their home trying to pay for?Not a single fucking person.More Yankee propaganda.You people are stupid if you believe this shit
@tindallpe and thats why Canadian PRIME MINISTERS come to the US for life saving surgery...you can KEEP your crappy socialist medicine in your socialist country....
@mgallant01 Not ONE Canadian Prime Minister has gone to the U.S. for ANY surgery. Keep drinking the Koolaide and keep your Insurance run system that kills 45,000 Americans every year.
@mgallant01 Um Dipshit. He was NOT the Prime Minister of Canada, it was Danny Williams the Premier (like a governor) of the smallest province in Canada..Newfoundland. WIlliams is a multi-millionaire that chose to fly ALL the way to Florida where he could have gotten a procedure pioneered in Toronto. Mitral valve replacement surgery. Let's see, have it done and recover in a Montreal or Toronto hotel for 12 weeks in the middle of winter or his posh Florida condo. Research next time.
@MadHabber93 Oh well THAT makes it ok! "just a PREMIER! LOL!! No wonder Canada is a 3rd world country. "Just a premier" wont use their world class healthcare!! Too funny! "just a Premier"!!!
@mgallant01 Just a Premier? Are really that much of an ass?? You claimed that MANY Prime Ministers went south for care, which is bullshit.
3rd country? Is that why our dollar is worth more, we have a better quality of life, lower unemployment and a Triple A S&P debt rating? Fucking research a bit before spewing crap. Nice one.
@mgallant01 And you obviously don't realize that 60,000 American residents in ONE year came to Ontario to fraudently use our system because they couldn't afford it at home. Or the 750,000 that went abroad for care in 2007, with that number predicted to go into the millions last year, because they couldn't afford it at home. Tell you what, I'll trade you one super rich politician for hundreds of thousands that could never afford that life saving surgery in the first place. Its called GOOGLE!!
@mgallant01 There has never been a Canadian Prime Minister receive surgury in the States.So make sure you get your facts straight before you make an ass of yourself. We had a Provincial leader from Newfoundland get heart surgury in Florida because he has a summer residence there and because he is very wealthy but he could have recieced the same treatment in Canada. Your system of delivery is a disgrace and most Americans know it.All Canadians certainly know it and not a single one would trade
@mgallant01 We've had universality since the 1960's. Your light years behind us. To us the US is just one big private clinic that we can chose to pay for or not. You ,on the other hand have NO coverage unless you pay private insurance. And then they cap payouts or refuse payouts and charge huge deductables so you pay cash for all minor things. You realize your screwed right? NO? .We do!!
@tindallpe We are light years behind? where do you think you get your medical tech from? There are probably more MRI machines in my state than in your country. And I would rather pay cash. I would rather be able to go down and pay 20$ to a nurse practitioner. Unfortanately the AMA has a government sponsered monopoly on who can treat me for the flu. And you do pay for health insurance. You just don't have a choice.
@mixmastermeeks You don't have a choice to pay for your roads, your military, your police, etc. So what's your point? At least we know that EVERY time we go in for treatment it will be covered. The same can not be said about the U.S. Insurance industry. Its a common myth that somehow the U.S. holds some kind of monopoly on medical and drug research. R&D is alive and well in Canada, & other nations with Universal Healthcare.
What good are more MRI's if you can't afford it or the treatment?
@mixmastermeeks I'm not sure how long you wait for an MRI. In Canada the average is three weeks . Lets be sure to define the issue because the US has contributed greatly to all tehnological inovation.This is a fact.We have too. The Pacemaker ,insulin for diabetes, electron microscope and others.The issue is, are Americans being treated properly in the delivery of healthcare even though they pay more per capita than Canadians? No they are not because of private insurance. That's the point.
@tindallpe I am glad you don't want to make this into a national debate. I think Canada is a great country. my point was that in the last 30 years most medical inovation has come from America. And that isn't because we are "American". It is because our system has incentives. The part of our system that fails is the part controlled by our gov...
@tindallpe I have private insurance and love it. Just had a full cleaning and a filling done at my dentist office in the same day no wait. Only paid $40 for the whole thing my insurance company paid the rest. When I go to my doctor for a yearly physical I only pay $20. I only work part time and can afford great insurance. I have a cousin who was on State coverage. He had to wait in long lines at horribly inefficient State run facilities. He now pays for insurance because you get what you pay for
You work part time and can afford great insurance. Do you get that insurance partly covered for by your employer? How much is it a month? 40% of Americans do not, with a large chunk of them not being able to afford coverage. You are 28, and I'm assuming not married with a family. The average family insurance is $16 grand, so see how much is costs then & when you are over 40. What's your hospital deductible?
@ForAVoluntarySociety Actually you are not getting what you pay for. I've been talking to an American with dual citizenship working in the medical field who choses his treatment in Canada even though he spends a number of months in Florida were he would have to pay.But thanks for the testimonial. Here is another one for you from an American poster
@ForAVoluntarySociety •t Mass. wouldn't have had as many problems if EVERY state had single payer, and the insurance co./middlemen were removed nationwide. Hey, got a couple of bills here from taking my kid to the ER when she bonked her head. X-ray & EKG (EKG...why?) About 10 min of Dr. time. Radiologic = 35.00, ER exam = 753.00, ER visit = 1701.07. Not worth filing on health insurance...2000.00 deductable, then they pay 80%. Turned out nothing was wrong with her, just a small cut
@ForAVoluntaryHere's another" It is bullshit.Gouging plain and simple.If you work for a big Co. you have a monthly premium and a co-pay+usually a deductible. That's bad enough, but when you purchase health insurance on your own, without a big Co. for bargaining power...you are truly screwed.That's why I support State single payer or Co-operatives.The propaganda machine here rarely, if ever, mentions these options. The U.S. Gov. and media are 99% corrupt, bought off by Big Business (large ins)
@tindallpe1. Here are a few points. I was not talking about historical innovations. A vast amount of new medical tech and drugs for that matter come out of the U.S. Not because we are better at it, but because people can still make a living doing it. 2. Our problem isn't private insurance, our problem is the monopoly those insurance companies were giving by gov regulations. Why can't I buy health insurance from a company in a different state? And Canada has many "illegal" for profit clinics.
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US healthcare is the most overpriced and the most inefficient among developed countries.
In a profit orientated system like the US one it's not profitable for the doctor and the pharma companies to cure the patient using the most efficient medical procedures but the most expensive one and to perform as many as possible unnecessary procedures just to increase the bill
In a profit orientated system doctors aren't paid to keep patients healthy.The more sick people are the more doctors earn.
SuperThe86 2 weeks ago
Once again Paul Krugman goes out of his way to show how much of an idiot he really his.
The Canadian Health Care System doesn't work, it as never worked.
Canuckism101 3 weeks ago
@Canuckism101 Too bad 90% of Canadians disagree with you.
MadHabber93 3 weeks ago
Paul Krugman = the epitome of PHAIL!
TheManiacalSatanist6 1 month ago
HURR DURR SOCIALIST COMMIES GET FREE HEALTHCARE!!!
DAT UNCONSTITUTIONAL, JAYSUS WILL HEAL ME!!!!!
LETS LIE AND SAY THEY HATE IT!!!
joeymediauk 1 month ago
I love all this propoganda BS that American news shows about Canadian healthcare, poking a a country that provides a longer lifespan for its citizens by at least 3 years longer than the average American, 85%+ of Canadian are satisfied with our healthcare, don`t believe the lies of waiting 4-6 months to see a specialist etc etc, if you`ve got a serious disease or whatever you`re seen ad treated right away. Find it arrogant for the American public to criticize another country before looking at you
iLuvBarRefaeli 1 month ago 5
@iLuvBarRefaeli According to a Harvard Medical School study, 45,000 americans die each year because they can't afford healthcare.
bonheurbrun 1 month ago
@iLuvBarRefaeli - Wait times are insanely long in Canada and the JCUSH report shows that Canadians tend to complain about the waits they have for care. This is simply fact. Now if you are OK with waiting, then cool. Some others don't want to wait. Americans suffer from lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians... which one could argue is the worst way to die.
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 Canadians do not wait for urgent care and common care. We have some wait times for non-urgent procedures like hip replacement. Canada also has lower cancer mortality rates per population.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - According to JCUSH, the cancer mortality rates are, indeed, lower in the US than in Canada. Also, define "urgent"... Emergency care? Ok, I might level with you. But operations that aren't emergency can still need urgent care. Like removing tumors and getting MRIs to diagnose ailments. These things save people's lives and when they have to wait months at a time between GP and specialist, people die.
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 According to the latest cancer care stats, that can be found at cancerDOTca for Canada and cancerDOT org for the States, they are not.
And no, urgent surgeries are done...urgently. For example, my colleague tore her achillies heal, went to ER and was on the operating table in a couple of hours. Our friends daughter went in showing signs of stroke, had an MRI immediately. There are NO studies showing Canadians are dying on wait lists. GP's ask for immedate appt's if deemed urgent.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - I can't link on YouTube but search this in Google - "statistics show Canadian healthcare" - & click on the first result from USA today. The data was provided by The Fraser Institute, one of YOUR Canadian think tanks. People may not be dying but 9 months to get treatment from an Orthopedic Surgeon? 8 weeks with a brain surgeon. who needs those right? That's why Ontario sent patients to the US due to a shortage of Neurosurgeons. I can source that too if you'd like haha
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 I am going to provide you the two cancer care links providing 2009 data for both countries mortality. Here's a summary.
All Cancers Mortality/100,000
U.S. Males 231 Female 159
Canada Males 207 Female 152
Colon U.S. Male 22.1 Female 15.3
Canada Male 23 Femail 16
Breast U.S. Female 24.4 Canada 22
Cervical U.S. Female 2.3 Canada 2.0
See my links.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
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MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - Also, as to your cancer statistics. I'm sorry to say that you are either misinformed or blatantly lying. The OECD publishes this information every year. I can't link it but for 2011, Canada had a higher cancer mortality rate for colon, breast and cervical cancer. Trying reading some objective data from the OECD
broggi007 2 weeks ago
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@broggi007 For your time of quotes. A. The Fraser Institute is a HIGHLY biased source that is VERY much in favour of for profit health insurance B. Their survey is bogus as they only sample a small number of specialist across Canada C. Their quoted wait times are for non-urgent referrals. All specialists hold numerous spots for week in their schedule for urgent referrals. My friend in Ontario, in the last 3 years, has had 3 brain surgeries. THe first urgently done when diagnosed.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 And how long do those wait in the States when they can't afford the MRI, let alone the procedure needed following the MRI??? The JCUSH even shows that more Americans had unmet needs than Canadians. I wonder why?
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - Again, the number of people that can't "afford" an MRI is less than the number of people that never get MRIs in Canada because the 3 machines in the country are all booked up
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 THat's weird, since I waited all of 10 days for an MRI on my sinuses. You are believing B.S. data from B.S. sources like Fraser.
And we ALL get an MRI, the same can not be said for the U.S. population. What good is more MRI'S if you can't afford the scan, let alone the operation.
Again, your JCUSH source showed that Americans had MORE unmet healthcare needs than Canadians.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - It's a good thing you were one of the lucky few in canada that got to use one of the MRI machines. Too bad the same can't be said about the unlucky ones in Canada. But hey.. it's free right? Sure taxes are through the roof and the wait times, that aren't even dismissed by the Canadian government, but hey.. everyone's got it!
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 Our taxes are not through the roof. Its another myth you buy into. Our income tax rates are very similar in Canada. You add up your premiums and all taxes, and compare them to our taxes, we are way ahead. And Canadians know its not free, but we NEVER have to worry about how to pay for a deductible, a copay, or the coinsurance on a large bill. And that's those WITH insurance.
Your problem, you drink the Koolaide from the wrong people.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - Haha.. you got to be kidding me. A family making $150,000 in Quebec will pay 38% in taxes where as in the US that family will only pay 20%... $27,000 may not sound like a lot to you, but it's a lot to most people.
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 Ha ha. Sorry, I work for a Quebec company and actually make that amount and paid 32% in total income taxes before write offs. Went down to 25% after. And I have many U.S. colleagues making similar numbers, and they are not only paying 20% in income taxes.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - Those were standard rates and deductions can make a world of difference. All things being equal, there is an 18% spread.
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 Sorry, I've compared the rates, there is no 18% spread.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - And i'm sorry to say that there is.
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 Sorry, just did a tax calculator for Michigan, based on that $ amount. Total income tax came to 27.4%, not including social security. That is NOT 18%. Again, add in health premiums, co-pays, deductibles and co-insurance, we are ahead. A few States would be lower than that due to no State Tax.
For Alberta, its 29%.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - I'm not a tax attorney, and I'll guess you aren't either. So, this deduction game carries little merit for this conversation. Both systems have their loopholes, and I willing to wager the US has more loopholes by the nature of our system. Let's take a family in each of one of our largest cities (Montreal & Los Angeles) - I have sent you a link in your inbox to an Excel file. Read it and tell me what looks wrong.
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 Agreed, the countries have different loopholes, and the States have a bit more. But to compare to Montreal is not exactly the best thing, as Quebec is the one of the highest taxed provinces in Canada. Not to mention, it also depends what you get out of those taxes as well. As much as I hate paying too much taxes, Quebec has some of the broadest social programs in the country as well. If you compare loopholes, you must compare what the benefits of those taxes.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - Come now, comparing an Los Angeles to Montreal is completely fair. They are both expensive places to live and are highly populated and affect a good number of people. C'mon... don't go sour on me lol
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 For example, in Quebec, all medications are covered under their system in addition to all healthcare costs. They have almost fully subsidized daycare for all. They pay like $25/week for daycare until they age of 4 or 5. Their University tuition costs are lower to the rest of the country, and waaaaaaay lower than U.S. post secondary schools. That's 3 things off the top I think of.
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
@MadHabber93 - I don't doubt all of the benefits that come from all the taxes you pay. In fact, I would be extremely surprised if your benefits were anything less. But that doesn't change the fact that taxes are higher. That's all this was about. Not the benefits that come with the taxes.. just whether or not they were higher and they clearly are. The perks look nice... But I'd rather have th choice than be forced to pay into something I'll never use
broggi007 2 weeks ago
@broggi007 I'd rather have the choice too, except when it comes to healthcare. But again, comparing a city in the highest taxed province is not fair based on the benefits.
And yes, we have a National Sales tax of 5%. And by the looks of your ever ballooning debt, you guys better get one soon too. :)
MadHabber93 2 weeks ago
Not to mention that you have a national sales tax as well... which we don't have in the States. Check out my excel document :)
broggi007 2 weeks ago
This is proof that the private sector too can fail if burdened with the kind of bureaucracy that comes with thousand-page health care bills. If all health care providers were as free from overbearing harmful (though well intended) regulations, as chiropractors and other health/wellness professions, they would be able to innovate and drive costs down. As with corporations, if you mess enough with anything, it won't work properly. This is not to say there should be NO regulation necessarily.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge If you have no family doctor in Canada and you need to see someone about a non-critical issue, you can expect to wait HOURS to see anyone. I found this out when I went to go figure out why my stomach was hurting for days. Later I went to a chiropractor about finger numbness (heavy computer user), and they gave me an EMG scan, gave me tons of data to look at, gave me one of about 12 quick adjustments I'll need to get better, and it was about 30 mins and $40. Difference? Regulation!
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge I've had to use a walk in clinic a number of times over the years, when my family doc was over booked, and never waited more than an hour and a half.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 I had to wait 4 hours, and then spent another 2 hours total between brief stints of actual attention by professionals totalling under 20 mins. The amount of time they spent on me I felt to be sufficient, but the 6 total hours of waiting time was ridiculous. True, I was not in critical condition or anything, but I was in a very new and fancy looking facility in Calgary, Alberta.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge So, based on your one experience, we should do what?? Scrap the whole system?? I waited 15 hours in a Private for profit hospital in Dallas. New or private does not mean they won't ever be very busy. I'm just glad I live in a country where I don't have to worry about going into an ER because I couldn't afford it.
Your original premise that we all wait hours for non-critical issues is just not true.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 I just think we should have a two tiered system, because then only the private organizations that can beat the government system will survive, meaning the government system will only collapse if all the good doctors move to the private facilities, meaning higher wages, meaning people are willing to pay it, meaning more success than the government system. Government is supposed to fix broken markets, not prevent good ones.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge Our system does not have enough docs for single payer, how would we have enough for a 2 tier?? Answer: We wouldn't. Like you said, too many docs would cross over serving the wealthy few, and leave the rest behind. And you think that's a good thing?? What happens if you lose your job and can't afford treatment? Or get a disease and doesn't allow you to work, how can you get treatment if the public system is gone? YOu consider the majority getting no care a success?? Wow.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 My mom worked at the University of Calgary's medical continuing education department. She talked with many in the medical education field, and it was made clear to her on several occasions that the doctors band together to limit the number of graduates from the faculty of medicine each year. The reason there are not enough doctors is they want to artificially inflate their wages.
History has proven that corporations are more efficient than governments, that they do more with less.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge History has not shown that. It depends on the gov't and the corporations. Do you know how many corporations go bankrupt in a given year??
And even if you what you say is true, which is doubtful, how will private for profit insurance change the number of grads?? It won't.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 Check your history. Do you know WHY corporations go bankrupt? Because more efficient competitors force them out of the market, or because they take a loss that they were not insured against, or because a disaster physically destroys their operation. Corporations tend to make less risky investments because their funds are limited. Governments go bankrupt less often for a reason - they just raise taxes or nickel and dime the citizen whenever their strategies fail.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge So I want my docs to go out of business? Or hospitals?? Are you for real?
Healthcare is not about a product being sold on shelf, its about HEALTHCARE. And private insurance won't do jack shit to help our system, with the exception of the wealthy few.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 When has it ever happened that an entire industry that was necessary to the people has ever acrosss the board gone bankrupt? The reason you go bankrupt is either bad fortune, in which case insurance will save you usually, or because of bad plans, in which case your competitors merely pushed you out by offering a better service. Should we reward inefficiency and bad plans just to prevent a single bankruptcy? Good doctors will have no trouble being hired by a good company.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge Do you know how many Americans go bankrupt every year due to medical bills?? Over 50% of all bankruptcies, with 70% of them actually having insurance. Insurance for profit companies want one thing, profit. You then become a liability if you have the misfortune of getting sick.
Why would I want a system where the insurance 'might' cover it. Our system pays for it EVERY time.
BTW, private for profit insurance never saves you, the doctor does.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 That's because they don't have a public option, and because of the lack of innovation due to no real competition. The public option was the only part of the Obama bill that would have had the capability to shake things up a bit, the rest was just yet another thousand pages of red tape and barrier to entry to the market. The more you regulate, the harder it is for new guys to come in and put the expensive alternatives out of business.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge The public option would have been good for the Americans. But has nothing to do with our system.
And no, the provinces with mandated car insurance is not the most. Manitoba's is WAY more than Ontario, and I'm willing to bet more than provinces with gov't mandated rates. Do you have a clue how much more we pay here?? Our 'real' competition has resulted in the highest premiums we ever had.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 Manitoba is Autopac, the provincial mandatory and only government's auto insurance company. Manitoba's roads also suck. See what I mean?
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge What do insurance companies have to do with road conditions?? Insurance companies don't do road work?????????
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 Read my other post. Private insurance companies sue the government when accidents or wrecks are caused due to the roads either being full of potholes or not cleared of snow and ice, or not built properly. The government insurance company does not care, it just pays out everything that happens, and does not notice the savings incurred due to improving the roads.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge Show me where private insurance companies sue the gov't. for bad roads. Where are you getting this from?? And gov't insurance companies just won't pay out everything. Then why don't we all sue them in that case.
Did you ever think that roads suck in Manitoba due to the heavy freeze and thaw every year and what that will do to a road system. Your premise is just way off.
And I'm off to bed.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 These sorts of lawsuits do not make the news because they are a dime a dozen, I'd have to spend hours poring over some government records site, assuming it exists. Only sensationalist headlines make the news such as "porn star sues government". Show me proof that the roads are not better in a financially comparable region of Canada which instead has private insurance companies. Why is it just now that you ask for proof yet not before, because you have nowhere further to go?
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge I find it funny that you ask me for proof of one province having better roads than others to prove a stupid theory you have about insurance. Spare me. You made the original claim, so back it up. ALong with your lawsuit claim. Both are unfounded and ridiculous connections.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 I asked you to prove something because you asked me to prove something. Fair is fair. ...Well? I'm waiting...
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge Dude, you made the ridiculous claim that roads in provinces with private insurance are better than those with public. Let me be clear, so there is no confusion on your part. THERE IS NO FUCKING CONNECTION to that. If you can prove otherwise, I'll buy you a beer. A really expensive one. I get to Calgary quite often, my wife is from there.
This coming from a guy that wants the public health system to collapse. One word for you. IDIOT!!
QUit wasting my time.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 It's not ridiculous, you just have to drive through to see it. The have-not provinces are the ones that vote NDP and Bloq and the haves are the ones that vote Conservative and to a lesser degree Liberal. It doesn't take rocket science to figure it out.
I never said I want the public system to collapse, I want it to be affordable, and I want it to be replaced when there is something better to replace it with. As long as innovation is stifled though that will be never.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge First off, I vote Conservative. But the have provinces are loaded with oil.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 Oilsands oil is actually rather expensive to extract, though there are a fair amount of conventional wells too. Saskatchewan and Newfoundland also have fairly substantial oil deposits, but for the most part they are either unexplored or undeveloped, due to the higher corporate taxes, government deincentives, and all the attention and subsidy money that go to the farmers and fishers. All it took in the 70s to decimate Alberta was "wonderful" Trudeau, an NDPer who ran Liberal.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 It would be a nice thought that the people could sue the government for theoretical losses due to not having a competitive marketplace, but so many people wouldn't even consider the possibility. I don't remember the army digging out Winnipeg after a snowfall, but I know this sort of thing is not new to Toronto, so I have to assume things are not worse in that regard in Manitoba, especially considering snow requires moisture, and Ontario has far more freshwater lakes.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of corporations, I am just more a fan of them than of governments. When government power has no control over the markets, there is no government for the rich business owners to bribe, so they can't use that as an easy way to rub out their competitors, they have to compete for the dollars of the people to stay afloat.
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge I'm no fan of gov't either, but sometimes gov't intervention is necessary.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@theredscourge Government's role is supposed to be to protect the freedom of its citizens from wrongdoing of each other, or foreign aggressors. If you make a stock market investment and lose your money, that is your problem you were free to risk your money or not risk your money, and you chose to risk your money, and lost. The finance sector got into a rats nest of regulation to stop their competitors and regulation to "benefit the people" that was not based on sound economics, so they messed up
theredscourge 2 months ago
@theredscourge To protect...exactly. And allowing private for profit insurance will not protect its citizens. It would allow a 'foreign aggressor'. I agree with the rest of your post regarding the market.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@MadHabber93 In Canada, the provinces with government mandated auto insurance are the ones where insurance costs the most. The reason is that the private companies in the other provinces sue the government every time accidents are caused that could have been prevented by proper maintenance of the roads, so they make sure the roads are good and cleared of snow and ice, and accidents go down. This helps the companies' bottom lines, and since there is REAL competition in auto insurance, prices fall
theredscourge 2 months ago
Lol, I'm a big fan of Krugman but that was an awesome fail.
neanderslob 2 months ago
In Canada, our Healthcare is the second worst in the developed world, after the US. That is because it is the second most privatized in the world. Everything is privatized except for insurance for diagnosis and emergency care.
You still have to get coverage for medicine in Canada. You are not covered. Dentists are not covered. And hospitals and clinics are all private.
If Americans want to aim for a good healthcare system, they should aim higher than Canada.
poyani 3 months ago
@poyani You are basing 2nd worst based on an outdated, flawed WHO study. When looking at healthcare outcomes, ameniable mortality in particular, Canada ranks very high. And yes, hospitals are private, but not for profit. Things are similar in Europe. And many Euro countries have private insurance for medical bills, that we don't. In addition, its not just diagnosis & emergency care that is public, ALL hospital medical care and medication in hospital is covered.
MadHabber93 3 months ago
@poyani I agree with you that they should look to other countries for a model of UHC, ours isn't the best in the world. Not even the top 10 or 20. But we're not second to last and we're usually ranked over the US. More people receive healthcare per capita in Canada than they do in the US. Our healthcare saves more people.
urantivirus 2 months ago
@poyani : You think this way becasue you cannot tell the difference between healthcare and MEDICAL CARE. USA has the BEST MEDICAL CARE in the world. Only reason why USA's HEALTHCARE is messed up is because the GOVERNMENT messed it up with over regulation.
pmango1000 2 months ago
@pmango1000 Can you show us links, reports or studies supporting your claim that the U.S. has the best 'medical' care. Opinions don't mean a whole lot.
MadHabber93 2 months ago
@pmango1000 Having the Best medical care is irrelevant. Having access to health care is much more important. There are innumerable studies out there which show that Americans avoid using health care because of the cost burden it places on them. The ones who have to use healthcare because of illnesses undergo bankruptcies.
US government actually doesn't regulated healthcare as much as they do in other western countries. If you care about life expectancy, America is far behind most of Europe.
Franky4fingers78 2 weeks ago
@Franky4fingers78
the US is regulating its health care but it has all the wrong regulations.
regulation in other countries is far less harmful since its different kinds of regulations
unfad1ng 1 week ago
I know a lot of Canadians get upset that they have to wait to receive health care. And yes, waiting lists are shorter in countries that don't have universal coverage, but that's only because most people in those countries will never get the care they need. We're lucky to all have access, and that it's so affordable.
jessemaurais 3 months ago
I guess that depends on the people on the room and what they consider to be "terrible." Most Canadians are very happy with their healthcare system, as indicated by a poll done by CMA and by what most Canadians that are interviewed on the subject have said.
disclaimer05 3 months ago
Paul Krugman is a category-five moron. Thumbs up.
LogicalFlawDetector 3 months ago
I'm Canadian and what I've noticed is that a lot of people get their Canadian identity from being "not-American". We're constantly being reminded that we're better than Americans. Our system MUST be better because they are American and we are Canadian. Our health care system is not the best and it has a lot of issues. People wait months on waiting lists for certain procedures. That's because the prevailing opinion is its better for everyone to get bad health care than some to get better HC.
phil8888 3 months ago
@phil8888 What do you mean 'bad' healthcare? Canada's healthcare outcomes are right up there with any other country. Just look at cancer survival rates. Yet we never have to worry about how to pay a bill, or put off seeing our doc because we either can't afford the appointment or the diagnosis he/she might discover that would lead to even greater costs. To say the healthcare one receives in a Canadian hospital is somehow subpar to one in the States is just false.
MadHabber93 3 months ago
@MadHabber93 Then why do so many people go the US from Canada to receive care?
phil8888 3 months ago
@phil8888 That's because we don't. Its a myth. Read the study Phantoms in the Snow, which showed and concluded that Canadians going south for care is like a tip with no iceburg.
While in 2007, 750,000 Americans went abroad for care they couldn't afford at home, with that number predicted to go into the MILLIONS last year.
MadHabber93 3 months ago
@phil8888 The people who go to the states are the ones who can afford the treatment, do you really think poor people can afford care in the united states?? I have had numerous operations in canada one very serious when I was 13 I got treated right away was in the hospital for a month and the cost to me was NOTHING. Yes our health care is paid through taxes but in all honesty I would never trade Canadian Health Care for American Health Care any day of the week, Canadians Health is Not For Sale
TheRevolutionCanada 3 months ago
I don't know how much Americans pay for healthcare but I bet it's a lot more than the $56 per month that I pay. My father had a congestive heart failure (born with faulty valve), a pre-existing condition he would not be able to buy insurance in US. In the last 10years of his life, He had open heart surgery to fix the valve, then had a defibrillator put in (that alone Im told is $40,000 US), and dialysis for 2 years. We would have been bankrupted in the US.
petrfiddle 4 months ago
7 people is not a big enough sample to come to any reasonable conclusion.
NobleMotives 4 months ago
Canadians living in the United States don't generally have a high opinion of Canadian social programs! The Canadian health care system works brilliantly. The downside is wait times. In America the principle exists that if you can pay for it you should have the right to buy it, so if you have lots of money you can buy the world's best health care any time you need it. In Canada you will be told to wait your turn. This works better for more than 80% of the people served by the system.
donteatthefishsticks 4 months ago
@donteatthefishsticks Wait times also kill people. To have booth systems available is ideal.
mcbain434444 4 months ago
@mcbain434444 I see arguments on both sides. Canada does clearly need to do better in the area of wait times and prioritizing surgeries, and recruiting health care professionals, but if you create a second "stream" of health care delivery you are taking doctors out of the first stream and lengthening the wait times of others. The most important thing is emphasizing prevention over cure. The second thing is recruiting more health care professionals, which requires an affordable education system.
donteatthefishsticks 4 months ago
Note that all seven Canadians actually HAVE healthcare.
neilyvanneily 4 months ago
@neilyvanneily Not very good health care though :(. Just simply not as many resources available in our healthcare as there is in the States and nobody looks to socialized medicine to bring about advances in medicine. America does that fortunately. No system is perfect.
mcbain434444 4 months ago
@mcbain434444 Fair. I look at it as a straightforward tradeoff. You can either have: costly-but-highly-advanced healthcare that generally excludes the poor and lower middle class. Or you can have: universal but less fancy healthcare. Which system to choose? I say look at health *outcomes*--the only objective measure. The Canadian population is in general healthier than the American population. So their system is better. (Of course, we'd have to control for many other variables blah blah...)
neilyvanneily 4 months ago
@neilyvanneily - yes there are issues with the Canadian system, but the US is not automatically more advanced. There are heart surgeons in Vancouver that have pioneered stent treatments etc. otherwise I agree with your point, the US pays more for healthcare (per capita) than any other country in the world but in terms of health and life expectancy they are behind Canada.
petrfiddle 4 months ago
I've been living in Canada for over 15 years now and have paid THOUSANDS of dollars into this bullshit ponzi scheme and have used the service ONCE!. While other freeloaders use it anytime they get a nose bleed. It's disgusting - the government steals my money without my permission and then distributes it to others because I'm incompetent enough to decide where my money is spent best - this is their view point I suppose.
zdrux 4 months ago
@zdrux Here's a suggestion. Move!! You'd be the first one to cry in your cornflakes when you do need services and you have to pay an arm and a leg for it. I always love the 'gov't stealing my money' horseshit. Then don't expect roads, bridges, quality education, infrastructure, police, etc.
And what freedom of choice? Paying taxes? Move to Somolia or Saudi Arabia. They don't have taxes there. Hey, I hear they are now allowing women the vote. Very progressive. Sounds devine.
MadHabber93 4 months ago
@MadHabber93 I've paid for everything myself my entire life, so I don't know why I'd suddenly break down and cry about it. It's called taking responsibility for yourself. Secondly, roads and and bridges are not paid through income taxes, I see you don't quite understand the way it works. Road, gasoline, and property taxes pay for those things - there's one difference, I can chose not to pay those, but I cannot chose to have my money taken from me for my work (income tax). This is all new to you.
zdrux 4 months ago
@zdrux You've paid for the roads, the bridges, the police, garbage pick up, transit, education?? Road and bridges aren't paide through income taxes?? Really?? They are financed through the provincial and federal gov'ts. They are paid through both income and sales taxes. And a tax is a tax. Property taxes only pay for local roads, which still get grants from the federal and provincial level. And if you don't want income taxes, like I said MOVE!! Somolia must be heaven to you!!
MadHabber93 4 months ago
@zdrux That's the way health insurance works also. Are you against that?
neilyvanneily 4 months ago
@zdrux You obviously need to look up what a Ponzi scheme is.
neilyvanneily 4 months ago
@zdrux If you dont like it then leave Canada go to the states and pay for your own medical insurance problem solved and quit bitching whatever happend for caring for the common man?? guess you never learned that
TheRevolutionCanada 3 months ago
@TheRevolutionCanada Why do I have to pay for everyone's misfortunes? I don't get it.
zdrux 3 months ago
@zdrux That is what happens with a universal health care system its there for when you need it, your statement is the basic definition of being selfish and having the mentality of every man for himself. If you dont want to pay for everyones misfortunes thats fine I have two solutions for you either dont pay taxes or go to the states and purchase your own health insurance plain and simple. Your Statement that "why do I have to pay for everyones misfortunes" is such a disgusting statement
TheRevolutionCanada 3 months ago
@zdrux I also assume your not in public school-why should you have to pay for kids to attend public school, I also assume your not in the military-why should you have to pay for national defence or to keep the country safe when we are not at war, i assume your not a police or firefighter-why should you have to pay for 911 services, i assume you dont drive on every road- why should you have to pay for people to drive on proper roadways, cont.......
TheRevolutionCanada 3 months ago
@TheRevolutionCanada cont.... your argument is pretty dam disgusting and im totally shocked your actually canadian no person in canada that appreciates universal health care would think the way you do. What I also suggest is if your soo against have to pay for other peoples misfortunes in your words, next time your drive by a hospital go into an emergency room and find someone who has been mangled in a car accident and ask them "why I should pay for your care"- I would love to hear the response
TheRevolutionCanada 3 months ago
@TheRevolutionCanada I should have to pay for my OWN kids to attent school, nothing wrong with that. Military and police/firefighter spending can come from sales taxes and tarrifs (14% HST ought to be enough), and roads are built using gasoline tax, driver's license fees, sticket renewals, I'll just assume you weren't aware of this.
You know what the main trend in those are? They're all voluntary and I don't have to pay for them when/if I don't use them.
zdrux 3 months ago
@zdrux I am totally aware of all of that, you seem that you honestly wanna pick and choose where your taxes go and dont go thats called being totally selfish to your common man, haha "CAN" come from sales taxes but it all doesnt just come from sales taxes. Are you gonna answer the question when your gonna be going to the hospital telling patients in the emergency room why you should have to pay for their treatment?? your attitude is soo typical of what some americans feel you should live there
TheRevolutionCanada 3 months ago
@zdrux canadian health care is never gonna change it will always be a universal model, if there was a change you would see a complete revolution in this country no one would stand for a for profit health care system. You either better get use to it or in what i said before leave the country and live in the united states those are your two options, honestly your mind-set is completely misguided and pretty selfish, universal health care is a ponzi scheme HAHA my god that is the funniest thing ever
TheRevolutionCanada 3 months ago
@TheRevolutionCanada That's fine, but then don't take my choice of not participating away and call it a free country or call yourself a free individual when the only choice you have is either pay up, or don't hold a job. You're free to hold your opinion and I respect that, just don't be a hypocrite when you say it's not a ponzi scheme. Your income tax is paying for your grandma's care, that by definition is a ponzi scheme, the system is out of money, the young are paying for the old.
zdrux 3 months ago
@zdrux The difference is I dont mind paying for my grandmothers Health Care through my taxes that is what is called being a caring individual unlike yourself. This is a free country and I am a free individual if you dont like it why dont you go to somolia and see what choices and what kind of society you could have there, people like you dont exactly realize how good you have it.
TheRevolutionCanada 3 months ago
@TheRevolutionCanada One day maybe you will understand. Good luck.
zdrux 3 months ago
@zdrux Move to the States, hope you find a job, when you don't and can't afford insurance or healthcare and then get sick then YOU will finally understand. Good luck.
MadHabber93 3 months ago
@MadHabber93 lol you guys are all the same, just spouting off random things but can't actually debate logical points. I guess you are just ignorant.. I'm sure your heart is in the right place thought.
zdrux 3 months ago
@zdrux THere's no debating millions of Americans that fall into my description that simply can't afford care. That's not random, that's fact you ignore. Very telling.
MadHabber93 3 months ago
@MadHabber93 You still forgot to explain how I'm responsible for paying for other people's needs.
zdrux 3 months ago
lol... as a Canadian, I can assure you, we're not retarded enough to even consider the American system of health care....
LegerRon 4 months ago
IF the Canadian health care system is so good why is it that the Prime Minister/Governor of Quebec or whatever province had to leave Canada to come to this country for medical care??????
TheJboogie314 4 months ago
@TheJboogie314 It was the Premier of Newfoundland. The filthy RICH Premier. He went to Miami, to a hospital that is 5 miles from his Florida condo. He was much closer to New York or Maine, so their hospitals must suck then too, right? He also could have had the procedure done in any major Canadian hospital. Let's see, a 12 week recovery in a Toronto hotel in the middle of winter or his posh Florida condo? Hmmm.
Why did Sarah Palin's family come to Canada?
In other words, it means Jack.
Beartit69 4 months ago
@Beartit69 What does his being rich have to do with it? Quite simply he chose to have the procedure in the US not Canada...probably b/c he would have either been in a wating line in Canada or b/c the health care system in the US has world renowned hospitals and Canada doesn't. Peopel travel from all over the world to go to; Mayo Clinic, Harvard, John's Hopkins, Duke, etc. I've not heard of too many traveling to Canada's hospital other than if they thought they could get something "free."
TheJboogie314 4 months ago
@TheJboogie Rich has nothing to do with it? Really? So, if he wasn't rich, would he go ALL the way to FLorida where he owns his condo? Here are the facts. He needed mitral valve replacement surgery. A procedure PIONEERED in Toronto's Peter Munk Cardiac Centre. A hospital that has treated American patients & trained American doctors on the procedure. NO WAITS.
For not travelling to Canada, in 1 year alone, 60,000 American residents travelled to Ontario for care they couldn't afford at home.
Beartit69 4 months ago
@Beartit69 Dude your facts are all jacked up. He wanted the minimally invasive surgery which is done through your armpit, which is in contrast to the open heart surgery version normally performed. Again, a technique developed in the US.
The guys exact words were "I DID NOT SIGN AWAY MY RIGHTS TO THE BEST POSSIBLE HEALTH CARE WHEN I ENTERED POLITICS."
There is no such thing as FREE HEALTHCARE. Im not rich, but I do want everyone to take their damn hands out of my wallet.
TheJboogie314 4 months ago
@TheJboogie314 DUDE, I've known about the story since the day it was announced he was going. Its called mitral valve replacement therapy where one of the Pioneering Centers was the Peter Munk Cardiac Care Centre in Toronto.
But it doesn't matter where it was pioneered, at it was readily available with no wait times across Canada, except his small province. An interview with him on Canadian T.V. revealed he didn't even know it was available across the country.
Beartit69 4 months ago
@Beartit69
That is weird cause we don't have private health care in Ontario do we?Thought we have only socialize medicine so how did 60,000 American residents travel to Ontario for care they could not afford at home.
Not making any sense.
Maddie6385 4 months ago
@Maddie6385 By CLYDE H. FARNSWORTH
December 20, 1993
Lacking a national health care system of their own, thousands of Americans are tapping into Canada's -- illegally.
A report prepared for Ontario's Health Minister indicated that from August 1992 to February 1993, 60,000 medical claims had been made on behalf of patients who held American drivers' licenses.
Beartit69 4 months ago
@TheJboogie314 It's great if you're poor or middle class. It's crap if you've got millions. Do you have millions?
Aro2220 4 months ago
I'm canadian and I certainly don't want an american-like healthcare system. Krugman was just unlucky because everybody I know in Canada like the healthcare we have. Sure, there is some probleme here and there but it's mainly because we are running out of nurse and doctors.
Aanthaf 5 months ago
@Aanthaf and why do you think that is????
TheJboogie314 4 months ago
@TheJboogie314
I think it's because the university's studies in medicine are not accessible enough. It's really hard to enter in medicine because you need the best grades. It's not everybody that can make it. It's also very long before you get your diploma. It can take up to seven years before you can finally work.
But things are getting better. There is more and more nurse than there was five years ago. If we keep going. The problems on the nurse side are going to be solved soon.
Aanthaf 4 months ago
@Aanthaf Well, I think you're right it is hard to get into medical school. Don't you think that's a good thing? Do you really want someone with a 2.0 operating on you?
Now, nurses are another story. I'm sure you are getting more nurses b/c nursing school, at least in comparision to medical school, is EASY.
You are always going to have fewer doctors than nurses b/c not as many people can or want to do that. Its basic supply and demand.
TheJboogie314 4 months ago
@TheJboogie314
It's not only supply and demand. The reason why there is more nurse is because there was a lot of advertising for nurse formation.
I agree that there will always have more nurse than doctor but I think it's possible to attract more people to medicine school with the good promotions like they did with the nurses.
Aanthaf 4 months ago
ofcourse the next question is, what type of system would you Canadians prefer? None but the wealthy would ask for a system that looks like USA. While most people arnt happy with what they have, they would typically not give it up.
Its like what Churchill said about democracy, 'its the worst system except all the others'.
bdhcarbon 5 months ago
very few americans actually pay for their own health care, it is either the government or their employers purchase government subisided health insurance
krillin876 5 months ago
@krillin876 Right. I realize they wouldn't normally go to emerg and pay because emergency time as for raw cost is in the neighborhood of $ 8,000 an hour down there.What causes these bills are the huge deductables.Some are more ,some are less. Beyond the one or two k there is coverage if it serious enough to get you there.Daily needs don't get you there so you pay.I have many testimonials of average people going through this.I would like to here the ones that aren't this bad
tindallpe 5 months ago
CANADIAN health care actually have LESS regulations than USA, it is a less socialized system, many drugs you can buy without a script, therefore drugs are much cheaper than here in USA where they are produced
krillin876 5 months ago
I hate when americans pretend to be canadians and pull that shit...Love the Healthcare system here, never needed anything alse.
Mannixxx 5 months ago
I'm canadian, and this was hilarious! I have no doctor, btw, because I can't find one who will take patients. My last doctor retired when he was 80 years old, because he knew that when he retired he'd be leaving his patients without a doctor.
Re5Publica 5 months ago
Oh Paul, you silly man. You should have noticed the self-selection bias. What kinds of Canadians are going to come to the Rockefeller Plaza in NYC to listen to this panel? You have to remember your audience isn't necessarily indicative of the country as a whole. There's really no excuse for this.
Theycallmetomu 5 months ago
@Theycallmetomu Nice one
tindallpe 5 months ago
@tindallpe Personally, I love Krugman, and thinks he's right on the issue of health care-but that does not excuse leaving himself open to pwnage. If you're going to use rhetorical tools (and, yes, that's what this attempt was), make sure you're in a setting that will allow them to work. Oiy.
Theycallmetomu 5 months ago
Socialized medicine sucks! PERIOD!
mgallant01 5 months ago
@mgallant01 What sucks is having an opinion that still means FUCK ALL!! Good for you.
MadHabber93 5 months ago
@MadHabber93 He made me pee in a cup then gave me a prescription for flowmax.I was in and out and 5 minutes.I got my bill in the mail.2,500 bucks for 5 minutes? oh i forgot 500 for the ambulance ride cause i couldnt walk due to a kindey stone.
Sorry but 3 grand for a few minutes?
spigotman 18 hours ago
tindallpe 5 months ago
@MadHabber93 •I'm glad you're letting them have it They're just rabbid tokeep that bullshit system.
Here’s another one from your precious system from an American What the hell is this?
• So sick of everyone bitching about healthcare/No one is to blame but doctors and hospitals.Everyone could afford it even it didnt cost so much.I went to the hospital and seen a doctor for 5 minutes
tindallpe 5 months ago
@mgallant01 Well there is your system $3000.00 to go to the doctor.The only thing thats sucks harder than your system is you
tindallpe 5 months ago
CANADIAN healthcare sucks! ITS A JOKE! Krugman looked FOOLISH!
mgallant01 5 months ago
@mgallant01 Hey, thanks. Seeing that your American, your opinion on the subject means FUCK ALL. Foolish is saying a system sucks that you probably have never used. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stone.
MadHabber93 5 months ago
@mgallant01 ohh It's the stupid "Trailer Park Boy "that doesn't know Fuck All. How many American kids died today because you wouldn't let them see a doctor....HMM. You people are idiots.
tindallpe 5 months ago
That'sjust what they need;real evidence to prove the Canadian healthcare system doesn't work.I've been through it my familys' been through it and it does work.He could have asked Do Canadians go bankrupt because they can't pay for health care?No but 50%of bankruptcy in the US is a result of having to pay for health care .Is everyone in Canada covered?Yes Does anyone lose their home trying to pay for?Not a single fucking person.More Yankee propaganda.You people are stupid if you believe this shit
tindallpe 5 months ago
@tindallpe and thats why Canadian PRIME MINISTERS come to the US for life saving surgery...you can KEEP your crappy socialist medicine in your socialist country....
mgallant01 5 months ago
@mgallant01 Not ONE Canadian Prime Minister has gone to the U.S. for ANY surgery. Keep drinking the Koolaide and keep your Insurance run system that kills 45,000 Americans every year.
MadHabber93 5 months ago
@MadHabber93 umm ass-lint....ya better google it.....one DID have life saving heart surgery HERE.....
mgallant01 5 months ago
@mgallant01 Um Dipshit. He was NOT the Prime Minister of Canada, it was Danny Williams the Premier (like a governor) of the smallest province in Canada..Newfoundland. WIlliams is a multi-millionaire that chose to fly ALL the way to Florida where he could have gotten a procedure pioneered in Toronto. Mitral valve replacement surgery. Let's see, have it done and recover in a Montreal or Toronto hotel for 12 weeks in the middle of winter or his posh Florida condo. Research next time.
MadHabber93 5 months ago
@MadHabber93 Oh well THAT makes it ok! "just a PREMIER! LOL!! No wonder Canada is a 3rd world country. "Just a premier" wont use their world class healthcare!! Too funny! "just a Premier"!!!
mgallant01 5 months ago
Comment removed
MadHabber93 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@mgallant01 Just a Premier? Are really that much of an ass?? You claimed that MANY Prime Ministers went south for care, which is bullshit.
3rd country? Is that why our dollar is worth more, we have a better quality of life, lower unemployment and a Triple A S&P debt rating? Fucking research a bit before spewing crap. Nice one.
MadHabber93 5 months ago
@mgallant01 And you obviously don't realize that 60,000 American residents in ONE year came to Ontario to fraudently use our system because they couldn't afford it at home. Or the 750,000 that went abroad for care in 2007, with that number predicted to go into the millions last year, because they couldn't afford it at home. Tell you what, I'll trade you one super rich politician for hundreds of thousands that could never afford that life saving surgery in the first place. Its called GOOGLE!!
MadHabber93 5 months ago
@mgallant01 There has never been a Canadian Prime Minister receive surgury in the States.So make sure you get your facts straight before you make an ass of yourself. We had a Provincial leader from Newfoundland get heart surgury in Florida because he has a summer residence there and because he is very wealthy but he could have recieced the same treatment in Canada. Your system of delivery is a disgrace and most Americans know it.All Canadians certainly know it and not a single one would trade
tindallpe 5 months ago
@mgallant01 We've had universality since the 1960's. Your light years behind us. To us the US is just one big private clinic that we can chose to pay for or not. You ,on the other hand have NO coverage unless you pay private insurance. And then they cap payouts or refuse payouts and charge huge deductables so you pay cash for all minor things. You realize your screwed right? NO? .We do!!
tindallpe 5 months ago
@tindallpe We are light years behind? where do you think you get your medical tech from? There are probably more MRI machines in my state than in your country. And I would rather pay cash. I would rather be able to go down and pay 20$ to a nurse practitioner. Unfortanately the AMA has a government sponsered monopoly on who can treat me for the flu. And you do pay for health insurance. You just don't have a choice.
mixmastermeeks 5 months ago
Comment removed
MadHabber93 5 months ago
@mixmastermeeks You don't have a choice to pay for your roads, your military, your police, etc. So what's your point? At least we know that EVERY time we go in for treatment it will be covered. The same can not be said about the U.S. Insurance industry. Its a common myth that somehow the U.S. holds some kind of monopoly on medical and drug research. R&D is alive and well in Canada, & other nations with Universal Healthcare.
What good are more MRI's if you can't afford it or the treatment?
MadHabber93 5 months ago
@mixmastermeeks I'm not sure how long you wait for an MRI. In Canada the average is three weeks . Lets be sure to define the issue because the US has contributed greatly to all tehnological inovation.This is a fact.We have too. The Pacemaker ,insulin for diabetes, electron microscope and others.The issue is, are Americans being treated properly in the delivery of healthcare even though they pay more per capita than Canadians? No they are not because of private insurance. That's the point.
tindallpe 5 months ago
@tindallpe I am glad you don't want to make this into a national debate. I think Canada is a great country. my point was that in the last 30 years most medical inovation has come from America. And that isn't because we are "American". It is because our system has incentives. The part of our system that fails is the part controlled by our gov...
mixmastermeeks 5 months ago
@tindallpe I have private insurance and love it. Just had a full cleaning and a filling done at my dentist office in the same day no wait. Only paid $40 for the whole thing my insurance company paid the rest. When I go to my doctor for a yearly physical I only pay $20. I only work part time and can afford great insurance. I have a cousin who was on State coverage. He had to wait in long lines at horribly inefficient State run facilities. He now pays for insurance because you get what you pay for
ForAVoluntarySociety 5 months ago
@ForAVoluntarySociety Our dental system works the exact same way in Canada.
You work part time and can afford great insurance. Do you get that insurance partly covered for by your employer? How much is it a month? 40% of Americans do not, with a large chunk of them not being able to afford coverage. You are 28, and I'm assuming not married with a family. The average family insurance is $16 grand, so see how much is costs then & when you are over 40. What's your hospital deductible?
MadHabber93 5 months ago
@ForAVoluntarySociety Actually you are not getting what you pay for. I've been talking to an American with dual citizenship working in the medical field who choses his treatment in Canada even though he spends a number of months in Florida were he would have to pay.But thanks for the testimonial. Here is another one for you from an American poster
tindallpe 5 months ago
@ForAVoluntarySociety •t Mass. wouldn't have had as many problems if EVERY state had single payer, and the insurance co./middlemen were removed nationwide. Hey, got a couple of bills here from taking my kid to the ER when she bonked her head. X-ray & EKG (EKG...why?) About 10 min of Dr. time. Radiologic = 35.00, ER exam = 753.00, ER visit = 1701.07. Not worth filing on health insurance...2000.00 deductable, then they pay 80%. Turned out nothing was wrong with her, just a small cut
tindallpe 5 months ago
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@ForAVoluntaryHere's another" It is bullshit.Gouging plain and simple.If you work for a big Co. you have a monthly premium and a co-pay+usually a deductible. That's bad enough, but when you purchase health insurance on your own, without a big Co. for bargaining power...you are truly screwed.That's why I support State single payer or Co-operatives.The propaganda machine here rarely, if ever, mentions these options. The U.S. Gov. and media are 99% corrupt, bought off by Big Business (large ins)
tindallpe 5 months ago
@tindallpe1. Here are a few points. I was not talking about historical innovations. A vast amount of new medical tech and drugs for that matter come out of the U.S. Not because we are better at it, but because people can still make a living doing it. 2. Our problem isn't private insurance, our problem is the monopoly those insurance companies were giving by gov regulations. Why can't I buy health insurance from a company in a different state? And Canada has many "illegal" for profit clinics.
mixmastermeeks 5 months ago