On the fear of the God Whom we love

[AlRasuwl]

I'm sorry but discipline of my father which would involve a short sharp smack that would last only a few seconds is completely different from him setting me on fire, and not only that but refusing to let me die from my injuries and allowing me to continue burning for all eternity.

Talking as someone who has had my face burned by fire I can say that ANY entity that wishes to inflict this on someone even for a second is the most disgusting kind there is.

[allsaintsmonastery]

Of course, "hell" is neither a "place" nor an actual "fire." Such an idea is a product of Western thought. The "fire" is one's own conscience, not something created. The idea of an everlasting "fire" comes from the literalisation of a metaphor.

[AlRasuwl]

Revelation 14:10

[vanight]

Very good explanation... I think that un-healthy fear in the relationships with parents is in idea that has snowballed out of controlled as a result of Liberal parenting methods. Every generation seems to have gotten worse....

[Uxoriouswidow]

Unfortunately, although I by no means disagree with physical discpline pragmatically, I must disagree with the idea that it comes from love. 99 times out of 100 it's performed as a frustrative last resort to correct a childs behavior, and usually this is because the childs behavior causes the parent anguish or embarresment.

Of course, this has no bearing on whether the method is effective or acceptable - it is still both.

[allsaintsmonastery]

There are a number of problems with physical or "corporal" discipline. For one thing, it often causes people to neglect looking for concrete underlying causes to "ill behaviour." Autistic children or young people with bi-polar conditions or BPD an other such problems were once given corporal punishments that did only harm and had no benefits at all. Once has to be quite cautious about such matters.

[johncrwarner]

I remember a book by Gerard Hughes called the God of Surprises where he had the figure of Uncle George - who was never seen but we were told to love him as he was good but if we didn't love him he would do terrible things to us in the basement. That world-view that there is an invisible Uncle George is deeply problematic and often the god that people reject and I think most people reject too especially those who are religious.

[allsaintsmonastery]

The idea of "being in the hands of an angry God" was invented in the hearts of people who were themselves angry, bitter and malicious. No doubt many such anthropomoric descriptions of God in the Old Testament arose in the same manner.

[johncrwarner]

Often those that talk of God being like this or God being like that are often projecting their own views onto God - I would like it to be like that - the more certainty they express that God would (to pick a ludicrous example) shop at this shop rather than another the more suspicious I certainly am.

[cuttlefisch]

Vladika, how do you understand the texts in the Old Testament that speak of the "wrath" and "anger" of God?

[Uxoriouswidow]

As far as I've understood it as a Catholic, this is because these stories came from simpler times, when people misinterpreted natural events as divine portents. Rather than trulyt spiritual, they were often just highly superstitious.

[allsaintsmonastery]

A monk of Athos once told us that, as a young, educated monk, he went to an Elder and complained of finding "contradictions in Chrysostom." The Elder advised him to make a list of these, and then compare who Chrys. was speaking to in each occasions. The monk found that Chrys.spoke on one level and in one way to simple folk, and differently to educated. He then understood. Ch. could not address both audiences on the same level.

[MartinJWillett]

If people cannot be told the full truth they should be told that they are being told a simplified version. When I was taught chemistry at the age of fifteen my teacher clearly told me that much of what I was being taught was simplified because I would not be able to comprehend the full story. It seems that secular teachers are infinitely more moral in this regard than preachers who happily lie to people on the patronizing assumption that they can't handle the truth and wouldn't notice anyway.

[allsaintsmonastery]

A council in Alexandria in the time of Antony the Great ruled that it is heretical to accept literally the anthropomoric descriptions of God found in the O.T. This is quite logical considering that it is only in Christ that we can actually know anything about God. However, eventually, we will do a broadcast about this.

[Uxoriouswidow]

I look forward to it.

[jesujoyofmansdesirin]

Good video. However in response to your closing statements about God's punishment, it was always my understanding that God's punishment on individuals was doled out in love, as a father (or mother) punishes his or her child.

I can think of times where I tripped and skinned my knee or something like that while entertaining less than Christlike thoughts. The result was my attention always turned to God in recognition of guilt.

[allsaintsmonastery]

I remember using a "foul word" in the hearing of my father once. I was not so much afraid of punishment, as he would only say a word to me about it, but I had a sincere feeling of guilt for having used the word, and that feeling passed from being offence toward my father to being a feeling of guilt for an offence toward God. I apologised to both my father and to God.

[ioannismiami]

Fear and love are learned in the home. Without counting traumatic wounds from neglect and domestic violence among children who remain at home, an estimated 1.6 million teenagers strong have left home to fend for themselves in the USA this year alone. A report by Ian Urbina in the NYT, 25 Oct 09, "Recession Drives Surge in Youth Runaways," makes me wonder what more we can do as Church to re-build families for some runaways, and integrate others into families with love to share.

[allsaintsmonastery]

This is a real problem. The parish itself should be an extended family. Since we have cultivated this concept here, it has worked in a general way. We need to discuss this more. It does require more congregational involvement in the Liturgy as a foundation; and an actual Agape after the Liturgy (not a "fundraiser" meal, but a genuine Agape. We will discuss this.

[BrainScanMedia]

Amen brother... God bless...

[Larryinct]

giving all Glory to God Amen

[allsaintsmonastery]

That is why the Orthodox marriage service takes so long; it is there to convey real meaning: that marriage is a revelation and prophecy about the relationship between God and Israel, Christ and the Church, not just a license to have sex. After all, the crown of thorns was Christ's wedding crown, with which His marriage to his bride the Church was fulfilled.

[Larryinct]

The family analagy really puts it all in perspective. It reminds me of one of the reasons I realized Orthodoxy was the right believing Faith. Orthodoxy had a lot to offer in terms of bettering how I felt and my relations with other people. As I learned the faith and put it into practice; I could feel and see the changes. What better way to express our relationship with God and God's with the church than through marriage and family. We are afterall becoming adopted sons and daughters 1Thess5:5-22

[allsaintsmonastery]

Sometime read our book on THE MYSTERY AND MEANING OF GENDER AND HUMAN SEXUALITY. Family is the cornerstone of civilisation.