Remember to hate the sin and love the sinner. Since we are all sinners, this should apply to all of us. All of our leaders are sinners. All of our members are sinners. The Bible and especially Jesus, has a lot more to say about the misuse of riches than it does about homosexuality. Remember, Jesus is the descendant of a murderer.
@prodigital so many people forget that. The church is a hospital for sinners and not a hotel for saints. You are right about the misuse of riches being a sin that many people who talk about homosexuality never mention. Just for clarificiation. The murderer you are talking about is King David right?
There is no denomination, no Church that is 100% perfect. If you leave the one you're in and go to another, it won't be long before you find something wrong with your new denomination and Church, then you'll be leaving and searching for yet another.
You say, in this video, that you see Christ's hand working in this Church that you're in, that there's lots of good fruit. Best to work with that, and then work on bringing the rest into line as best you can. That's love.
Religion is mans feeble attempt at connecting with the Divine ...while faith in Christ is God reaching down to lost, fallen humanity; restoring, redeeming, healing and bringing many sons and daughters to glory through the shed Blood of Jesus at the Cross. Faith in Christ is a relationship, not a religion. Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth, the Life, and no man can come to the Father except through Me.
That I agree with 100% although there are many people who have not for whatever reason accepted Jesus who live lives of compassion and justice and those that say they accepted Jesus as their personal savior who lead lives of greed, pride, lust ect. are those in the first group followers of Christ of not in name but in deed and is the 2nd group not truly saved because there is no fruit of repentance.
I don't know the answer to that. I don't understand why anyone would not accept Christ
You have to remember brother that we are saved by grace , through faith, and this faith itself is a gift from God . None of us are saved because of good works , because we are compassionate, kind , just, etc. All of us have sinned and come short of God's glory and we all need a Savior. God sent His Son to save sinners and die for the ungodly...and that includes all of us. Our good deeds will not commend us before God...and once in Christ our flesh still wars against our spiritual nature.
That is true but faith without works is deadmy brother, then homosexuals are saved by grace as well if the greedy and the prideful are saved without any works of repentance that comes from it. Christians can't have it both ways. I am a sinner, I am greedy, I am prideful, I lust after women, but I am saved by God's Grace. That is not justice that is hypocrisy and God through the Prophets and through Jesus and the writings of the apostles pointed out that hypocrisy
Your good deeds won't commend you before God? Is that why James says; faith without works is dead? And why Jesus said; Matthew 25:41... and Jesus also said the you would know them by their fruits?
Yeah, the Bible is soooo simple and you understand it sooooo well.
Most of the people you mention, the compassionate ones who live lives of justice, have chosen not to accept Jesus because people like you and jfranklin and hordes of other "Christians" make Jesus look so bad.
f you Christians actually did emulate Christ and try to be like him, there would be more people coming to Christ. It's not Jesus that puts people off, it's the assholes claiming to be his followers.
Wow I am critized by both the right and the left on this issue.
Your comment adds to my point, that hypocritical and self righteous behaivor of Christians push people away. I thought and hoped that I wasn't one of them though
@jfranklins The only reason I can think is either pride or they view the Church as so hypocritical that they want nothing to do with it and then nothing to do with God.
It is a relationship not a religion, a relationship that grows and changes you
My brother, my brother, it is God who saves and not we ourselves. Every person in Christ was chosen by God, we did not choose Him , He chose us first.. If a person rejects Christ it is not because they see hypocrisy in the Body of Christ, that's just such a silly excuse, rather they don't come to Christ because they hate the Light and do not love the Truth. Jesus knows those sheep who are called by His Name...none of them will be lost.
Oh of course. God saves, He saved me and you, the problem is if we don't change, we are new wine in old wineskins and we burst and do nothing for the Kingdom of God, and we do push people away from God by our actions like I said before even Jesus said as much Matthew 23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
You are my Brother in Christ but you don't realize the danger of hypocrisy in His Church right now, And I almost lost my faith because of the Hypocrisy, It was only because of his =great Grace that he lead me back to his Word and I saw the Light and the Truth and am doing my part to let other unbelievers see the Truth and Light as well, as welll as fellow believers who I believe are stumbling from God's Truth as well
(2) This relationship we have with Christ is supernatural from the beginning and God is the initiator. We are indeed changed as we walk with God, as we abide in Christ, as the Holy Spirit dwells within us, but what are we changed into? Into the likeness of Christ of course,lol! Does this mean we must become liberals condoning sin in the name of supposed compassion, justice, concern for the poor. I think not!
While I agree that some liberals do condone sinful sexual behavior, The UCC and some of the churches of my own denomination do, but conservative churches condone systimatic sins of greed and pride that hurt the poorest of society. Both are equaly wrong and the liberals can't critize conservatives because they are blind to sexual sin, the conservatives can not criticize liberals because they are blind to the sins of pride and greed that their churches and politicians endorse
actualy while conservatives do give to charities to the poor, the sick, and the needy, they look the other way and even partake in the systematic sin of our society that benifets the greedy and the prideful at the expense of the poor.
Why do conservatives want as little government regulatiomn of the food industry, of industries that pollute this wonderful planet that God gave us? It seems the only sin that conservatives speak out against is of a sexual nature
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, Romans 1:26-28
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. Leviticus 18:22
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,1st Corinthians 6:9
@jfranklins - Yeah, it's soooo clear, Bible Scholars who've devoted their whole lives to the study of Scripture can't agree... Gee, wonder what they're arguing about?
@Chiyo1967-- The scriptures are so simple even a child can understand. Just because men hate the Light and wont accept the simplicity of the Bible and Gospel message doesnt change that fact.
@jfranklins - Do me a favor, when you reject people who have Ph.Ds in the study of Scripture, do the same and reject people who have Ph.D.s in oncology when you (or someone in your family) comes down with cancer. You, after all, know better than some educated schmuck. ;o)
@Chiyo1967-- LOL, you really think a Ph.D in theology means anything? Especially with the learning material and curriculum being faulty? When the teachers are a bunch of pompous buffoons who never knew God and probably never will? Let's see, what makes one an expert on a particular subject? Why personal knowledge and experience of the subject matter of course! How novel a concept! lol Is it any wonder my rejecting your so called "experts?" I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole,lol.
So what you're saying is that you, and ONLY you, are right, and anyone who disagrees with YOU is disagreeing with God. Gotcha. So when are you going to start the Church of Jfranklins?
@jfranklins The problem is some people would of said the same thing that Genesis 9 24-27 justified slavery, discrimination, and racism against blacks, and we know that that is not what God meant by Noah's curse.
So we have to be careful in interpreting scripture
@jfranklins I do believe and I hope you agree with me that homosexuality is no worse then fornication, idolatry, or greediness. Sometimes it seems that Christians do believe that and can make us self-righteous and hypocritical because there are greedy people that go to church and they are not turned away, there are pridefull people ect. We are all sinners here, not one of better then the other but on the other hand if Homosexual sex even in a longterm relationship is a sin
All sin is indeed bad and Christ died to pay the penalty for sin. However Christ not only died to forgive our sin but to set us free from the bondage of sin's power. In Christ we are no longer bound and we should walk in the freedom for which Christ died. Namely we should flee from adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc. All sin is bad but not all is an abomination to God. Just as as pedophila is much worse than overeating, so also is homosexuality in God's eyes. Not all sins are equal.
All sin is indeed bad and Christ died to pay the penalty for sin. However Christ not only died to forgive our sin but to set us free from the bondage of sin's power. In Christ we are no longer bound and we should walk in the freedom for which Christ died. Namely we should flee from adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc. All sin is bad but not all is an abomination to God. Just as as pedophila is much worse than overeating, so also is homosexuality in God's eyes. Not all sins are equal.
Then why in the prophets and in Jesus' teachins are there dozens and more of condmnations for systematic sins of pride and greed at the expense of the poor, and only about a half dozen refrences to homosexuality. Taking the bible literaly they are both sins against God but conservatives only seem to care about the sexual ones, and they are very willing to give a pass when it comes to the hetrosexual sexual sin of adultery.
@jfranklins Then any Church that Ordains a minister who is gay and in a relationship is violating 1 Corinthians 5:11 and should kick that minister out of the church if he doesn't repent But like I said, If it physical sex without love that is what homosexuality describes in the bible then kicking that minister out of the church would be a sin, would be kicking someone out of the Kingdom of God who has had a calling from Him.
@jfranklins But the question still remains, was he talking about the sex for pleasure sake of the pagan cultists, or was he talking about all homosexuality, even if a loving committed relationship. He could well be but he might not be, thats why we have to be so crystal clear with God on this point
I know where you're coming from my brother, as I've studied theology for over 25 years now; the Bible is not as complicated as many liberal theologians have tried to make it. Trying to inject their own bias they twist and distort, claiming this doesnt mean what is clearly says, that in fact it refers to the male temple prostitutes etc. Come on brother! Anyone can impose anything they want on the scriptures if they add or deny the clear meaning of the given passage,lol.
I know, it seems that the pro-gay "Gayness is a gift from God" folks are twisting the bible to make their case, just like the free market, no regulation, irresponsible economics crowd are doing the same thing. I know that you don't agree with the pro-gay crowd and I hope you don't agree with the No regulation, prosperity gospel, low taxes, low social services crowd as well.
I don't believe homosexuality is a gift from God, I do believe it is part of a broken world
But the question is how do we deal with it, do we shun, do we hate, do we lock up, do we kill? Or do we welcome them, try to get them to see that they are broken and that they need God's healing, but we can only do that will love and with respect, knowing where they are coming from, I believe that is Jesus approach, or the 3rd option, welcome them, embrace them and their sin, let them marry, be ordained ect. I know the 1st approach is not of God, I believe the 3rd approach is not either
@MrFree12 - Yeah, man, you tell all those Bible Scholars (like Bishop John Shelby Spong), they can use their Ph.D.s to wipe their asses, 'cause they don't know what the hell they're talkin' about! The Scriptures aren't that complicated, a child can understand them. And apparently, most people do have a child's understanding of them.
@Chiyo1967 Chiyo I really don't like vulgar talk in comments on my videos so in the future if you could not be vulgar in response. My channel is to be a place of reasonable discussion and dialogue among the non-believer-fundamentalist continum
So then no one should be allowed into church or to be ministers. I am reminded of the old saying " A church is a hospital for sinners not a hotel for saints"
Remember to hate the sin and love the sinner. Since we are all sinners, this should apply to all of us. All of our leaders are sinners. All of our members are sinners. The Bible and especially Jesus, has a lot more to say about the misuse of riches than it does about homosexuality. Remember, Jesus is the descendant of a murderer.
prodigital 11 months ago
@prodigital so many people forget that. The church is a hospital for sinners and not a hotel for saints. You are right about the misuse of riches being a sin that many people who talk about homosexuality never mention. Just for clarificiation. The murderer you are talking about is King David right?
AVoiceCrying33 11 months ago
There is no denomination, no Church that is 100% perfect. If you leave the one you're in and go to another, it won't be long before you find something wrong with your new denomination and Church, then you'll be leaving and searching for yet another.
You say, in this video, that you see Christ's hand working in this Church that you're in, that there's lots of good fruit. Best to work with that, and then work on bringing the rest into line as best you can. That's love.
Chiyo1967 2 years ago
Religion is mans feeble attempt at connecting with the Divine ...while faith in Christ is God reaching down to lost, fallen humanity; restoring, redeeming, healing and bringing many sons and daughters to glory through the shed Blood of Jesus at the Cross. Faith in Christ is a relationship, not a religion. Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth, the Life, and no man can come to the Father except through Me.
jfranklins 2 years ago
That I agree with 100% although there are many people who have not for whatever reason accepted Jesus who live lives of compassion and justice and those that say they accepted Jesus as their personal savior who lead lives of greed, pride, lust ect. are those in the first group followers of Christ of not in name but in deed and is the 2nd group not truly saved because there is no fruit of repentance.
I don't know the answer to that. I don't understand why anyone would not accept Christ
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
You have to remember brother that we are saved by grace , through faith, and this faith itself is a gift from God . None of us are saved because of good works , because we are compassionate, kind , just, etc. All of us have sinned and come short of God's glory and we all need a Savior. God sent His Son to save sinners and die for the ungodly...and that includes all of us. Our good deeds will not commend us before God...and once in Christ our flesh still wars against our spiritual nature.
jfranklins 2 years ago
That is true but faith without works is deadmy brother, then homosexuals are saved by grace as well if the greedy and the prideful are saved without any works of repentance that comes from it. Christians can't have it both ways. I am a sinner, I am greedy, I am prideful, I lust after women, but I am saved by God's Grace. That is not justice that is hypocrisy and God through the Prophets and through Jesus and the writings of the apostles pointed out that hypocrisy
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
Your good deeds won't commend you before God? Is that why James says; faith without works is dead? And why Jesus said; Matthew 25:41... and Jesus also said the you would know them by their fruits?
Yeah, the Bible is soooo simple and you understand it sooooo well.
Chiyo1967 2 years ago
Most of the people you mention, the compassionate ones who live lives of justice, have chosen not to accept Jesus because people like you and jfranklin and hordes of other "Christians" make Jesus look so bad.
f you Christians actually did emulate Christ and try to be like him, there would be more people coming to Christ. It's not Jesus that puts people off, it's the assholes claiming to be his followers.
megarouge2001 2 years ago
Wow I am critized by both the right and the left on this issue.
Your comment adds to my point, that hypocritical and self righteous behaivor of Christians push people away. I thought and hoped that I wasn't one of them though
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
@jfranklins The only reason I can think is either pride or they view the Church as so hypocritical that they want nothing to do with it and then nothing to do with God.
It is a relationship not a religion, a relationship that grows and changes you
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
My brother, my brother, it is God who saves and not we ourselves. Every person in Christ was chosen by God, we did not choose Him , He chose us first.. If a person rejects Christ it is not because they see hypocrisy in the Body of Christ, that's just such a silly excuse, rather they don't come to Christ because they hate the Light and do not love the Truth. Jesus knows those sheep who are called by His Name...none of them will be lost.
jfranklins 2 years ago
Oh of course. God saves, He saved me and you, the problem is if we don't change, we are new wine in old wineskins and we burst and do nothing for the Kingdom of God, and we do push people away from God by our actions like I said before even Jesus said as much Matthew 23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
You are my Brother in Christ but you don't realize the danger of hypocrisy in His Church right now, And I almost lost my faith because of the Hypocrisy, It was only because of his =great Grace that he lead me back to his Word and I saw the Light and the Truth and am doing my part to let other unbelievers see the Truth and Light as well, as welll as fellow believers who I believe are stumbling from God's Truth as well
In Agape Max
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
(2) This relationship we have with Christ is supernatural from the beginning and God is the initiator. We are indeed changed as we walk with God, as we abide in Christ, as the Holy Spirit dwells within us, but what are we changed into? Into the likeness of Christ of course,lol! Does this mean we must become liberals condoning sin in the name of supposed compassion, justice, concern for the poor. I think not!
jfranklins 2 years ago
While I agree that some liberals do condone sinful sexual behavior, The UCC and some of the churches of my own denomination do, but conservative churches condone systimatic sins of greed and pride that hurt the poorest of society. Both are equaly wrong and the liberals can't critize conservatives because they are blind to sexual sin, the conservatives can not criticize liberals because they are blind to the sins of pride and greed that their churches and politicians endorse
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
(3) We care for the poor, the sick, the needy, etc. but we do not disobey God's Word in the process.
jfranklins 2 years ago
actualy while conservatives do give to charities to the poor, the sick, and the needy, they look the other way and even partake in the systematic sin of our society that benifets the greedy and the prideful at the expense of the poor.
Why do conservatives want as little government regulatiomn of the food industry, of industries that pollute this wonderful planet that God gave us? It seems the only sin that conservatives speak out against is of a sexual nature
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
jfranklins 2 years ago
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, Romans 1:26-28
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. Leviticus 18:22
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,1st Corinthians 6:9
It's pretty clear...
jfranklins 2 years ago
@jfranklins - Yeah, it's soooo clear, Bible Scholars who've devoted their whole lives to the study of Scripture can't agree... Gee, wonder what they're arguing about?
Chiyo1967 2 years ago 2
@Chiyo1967-- The scriptures are so simple even a child can understand. Just because men hate the Light and wont accept the simplicity of the Bible and Gospel message doesnt change that fact.
jfranklins 2 years ago
@jfranklins - Do me a favor, when you reject people who have Ph.Ds in the study of Scripture, do the same and reject people who have Ph.D.s in oncology when you (or someone in your family) comes down with cancer. You, after all, know better than some educated schmuck. ;o)
Chiyo1967 2 years ago
@Chiyo1967-- LOL, you really think a Ph.D in theology means anything? Especially with the learning material and curriculum being faulty? When the teachers are a bunch of pompous buffoons who never knew God and probably never will? Let's see, what makes one an expert on a particular subject? Why personal knowledge and experience of the subject matter of course! How novel a concept! lol Is it any wonder my rejecting your so called "experts?" I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole,lol.
jfranklins 2 years ago
@jfranklins
So what you're saying is that you, and ONLY you, are right, and anyone who disagrees with YOU is disagreeing with God. Gotcha. So when are you going to start the Church of Jfranklins?
megarouge2001 2 years ago
@jfranklins The problem is some people would of said the same thing that Genesis 9 24-27 justified slavery, discrimination, and racism against blacks, and we know that that is not what God meant by Noah's curse.
So we have to be careful in interpreting scripture
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
@jfranklins I do believe and I hope you agree with me that homosexuality is no worse then fornication, idolatry, or greediness. Sometimes it seems that Christians do believe that and can make us self-righteous and hypocritical because there are greedy people that go to church and they are not turned away, there are pridefull people ect. We are all sinners here, not one of better then the other but on the other hand if Homosexual sex even in a longterm relationship is a sin
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
All sin is indeed bad and Christ died to pay the penalty for sin. However Christ not only died to forgive our sin but to set us free from the bondage of sin's power. In Christ we are no longer bound and we should walk in the freedom for which Christ died. Namely we should flee from adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc. All sin is bad but not all is an abomination to God. Just as as pedophila is much worse than overeating, so also is homosexuality in God's eyes. Not all sins are equal.
jfranklins 2 years ago
All sin is indeed bad and Christ died to pay the penalty for sin. However Christ not only died to forgive our sin but to set us free from the bondage of sin's power. In Christ we are no longer bound and we should walk in the freedom for which Christ died. Namely we should flee from adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc. All sin is bad but not all is an abomination to God. Just as as pedophila is much worse than overeating, so also is homosexuality in God's eyes. Not all sins are equal.
jfranklins 2 years ago
Then why in the prophets and in Jesus' teachins are there dozens and more of condmnations for systematic sins of pride and greed at the expense of the poor, and only about a half dozen refrences to homosexuality. Taking the bible literaly they are both sins against God but conservatives only seem to care about the sexual ones, and they are very willing to give a pass when it comes to the hetrosexual sexual sin of adultery.
Is this not hypocrisy?
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
@jfranklins Then any Church that Ordains a minister who is gay and in a relationship is violating 1 Corinthians 5:11 and should kick that minister out of the church if he doesn't repent But like I said, If it physical sex without love that is what homosexuality describes in the bible then kicking that minister out of the church would be a sin, would be kicking someone out of the Kingdom of God who has had a calling from Him.
It is a dilemma God Bless
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
Yes God bless you brother. Would love to stay and chat but I have to run now...lol
Be blessed brother Max.
jfranklins 2 years ago
You too Brother JFrankilns
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
@jfranklins But the question still remains, was he talking about the sex for pleasure sake of the pagan cultists, or was he talking about all homosexuality, even if a loving committed relationship. He could well be but he might not be, thats why we have to be so crystal clear with God on this point
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
I know where you're coming from my brother, as I've studied theology for over 25 years now; the Bible is not as complicated as many liberal theologians have tried to make it. Trying to inject their own bias they twist and distort, claiming this doesnt mean what is clearly says, that in fact it refers to the male temple prostitutes etc. Come on brother! Anyone can impose anything they want on the scriptures if they add or deny the clear meaning of the given passage,lol.
jfranklins 2 years ago
I know, it seems that the pro-gay "Gayness is a gift from God" folks are twisting the bible to make their case, just like the free market, no regulation, irresponsible economics crowd are doing the same thing. I know that you don't agree with the pro-gay crowd and I hope you don't agree with the No regulation, prosperity gospel, low taxes, low social services crowd as well.
I don't believe homosexuality is a gift from God, I do believe it is part of a broken world
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
But the question is how do we deal with it, do we shun, do we hate, do we lock up, do we kill? Or do we welcome them, try to get them to see that they are broken and that they need God's healing, but we can only do that will love and with respect, knowing where they are coming from, I believe that is Jesus approach, or the 3rd option, welcome them, embrace them and their sin, let them marry, be ordained ect. I know the 1st approach is not of God, I believe the 3rd approach is not either
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
sin is sin man...
its simple as that..
cant love the sin...
MrFree12 2 years ago
@MrFree12 - Yeah, man, you tell all those Bible Scholars (like Bishop John Shelby Spong), they can use their Ph.D.s to wipe their asses, 'cause they don't know what the hell they're talkin' about! The Scriptures aren't that complicated, a child can understand them. And apparently, most people do have a child's understanding of them.
Chiyo1967 2 years ago 2
@Chiyo1967 Chiyo I really don't like vulgar talk in comments on my videos so in the future if you could not be vulgar in response. My channel is to be a place of reasonable discussion and dialogue among the non-believer-fundamentalist continum
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
@MrFree12 We all are sinners, what makes the homosexual worse then the others?
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago
@AVoiceCrying33
it doesnt..god is clear what sin is...and he doesnt like sin..from homosexual to lustful thoughts..we are not perfect..
MrFree12 2 years ago
So then no one should be allowed into church or to be ministers. I am reminded of the old saying " A church is a hospital for sinners not a hotel for saints"
AVoiceCrying33 2 years ago