Wow! Humans!! Oh! Humans!! Humans!! Very bright, smart, intelligent n so wise n there own minds. yet so confused n lost. Just sad! Just so sad!! What a vanity waste of epistomolgy.. if we just have an open heart for truth n seek real truth ask for it we would get it but pride seems to be in the way enough to blind us n not to see.. May God bless us humans!..
Free will??? Stupid????? The ark fairytale is physically impossible. The talking smake, 600 year old man! The list goes on. Believe what you wish. Religion is evil and controlling.
The odds of amino acid occuring naturally are 10 to the SIXTY-FOURTH POWER to 1. This exceeds statistical possibility. It CANNOT have happened on its own in all of geologic time. To believe it did, requires far more faith than it takes to believe in God. To accuse believers in God of foolishness while believing instead in the 'natural' origin of life is DELIBERATE INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY.
you are doing a Hoyle's fallacy. your numbers are all wrongs. 1) nothing can exceed statistical possibility. if you have a possibility, that means it can happen, no matter how unlikely. people win the lottery every year, multiple times, right?
Plus.... Abiogenesis is not evolution. stop being so fucking dumb.
if you want to play: Try explain AB resistance or Plant speciation without using evolution theory!
@transtlantic Plant speciation is the result of the variation of species cause by the limited information in the genome.
Truth is what God is. All scientific observation is relative and God's word is eternal.
Religion is not what Christian teaching is about. Whatever you know about Religion, it is not what Christian teaching is. Christian teaching is about knowing the truth.
"variation of species"? lolol your made up bullshit is hilarious. how the fuck can a species vary with limits? you are fucking retarded. try make sense next time.
"Truth" isn't an individual entity, you are doing a reification fallacy. only what has proof for is true. god has no proof for, so god is a falsehood.
"is relative and god's word is eternal"? utterly made up shit.
Christianity IS a religion. check the encyclopedia.
A dog is 1 species (subspecies actually) and one day it might speciate. the Dog has an ancestor which wasn't a dog - the Wolf.
Hydrogen is proof that god doesn't exist.. So God = falsehood.
There is no maker. If you have an accident you go to a hospital. so there is evidence that someone helps us and that there is no god anywhere for you.
There is no maker. christianity is full of buy bull induced shit.
@transtlantic Dogs and wolves can mate and have little wolf dogs. That means that a dog is the same thing as a wolf. I shouldn't have to explain that to you.
Hydrogen functions as intended in life forms according to a preexisting word, none of which is possible without a Maker God.
The hospital can't help your mutation condition. Mutations will win eventually.
Our Maker is able to remake us all over again.
Religion is a strawman argument. The issue is that hydrogen shows we have a Maker.
" Dogs and wolves can mate and have little wolf dogs. That means that a dog is the same thing as a wolf. I shouldn't have to explain that to you."
Yeah whatever, a horse and a donkey make a mule, which is sterile. That is a better example. Two species just seperated enough to reproduce, but not reproduce in kind. You are wrong.
@JungleJargon Our maker is able to remake us all over again you say ..Why did he create the flood and destroy almost every one but make noah and family work so hard and collect all the animals etc etc etc.. These are crazy stories This supposed god would just have killed everyone and remake everyone. If he was perfect then he would have made us perfect and wouldnt require killing everyone . Good grief these stories are stupid
@nancy6ify I believe that we have a history and I believe that biblical history is the most accurate history because specific things said in the Bible have been proven with specific archeological findings that verify the biblical accounts thousands of times over. So I believe what has the most evidence.
@TruthIsLife7 - "...how would you like it if all evolution was apriori banned from consideration just because it had Darwin's name attached to it?"
Like creationists are trying to do in public schools?
TLI7 - "It's exactly the same when you ban something from science just because it has religious connections."
Science doesn't "ban" anything. Science requires observable evidence and testable theories. Superstitious beliefs cannot provide such evidence and are dismissed for that reason alone.
@TruthIsLife7 - "...it was Christianity & creationist concepts that laid the foundations for modern science in many ways..."
Nonsense. These disciplines developed despite the constant and often violent repression by Christianity. Early scientists professed Christian beliefs because it was dangerous to do otherwise. If you wanted an education or a career in science, you had to kiss papal ass. If people like Newton and Kepler had the benefit of a modern, secular education, they'd be Atheists.
@LemUUU It would be difficult to misrepresent science&religion worse than your post.Atheism&theism existed for 1000s of years,but it was Christianity & creationist concepts that laid the foundations for modern science in many ways(pioneering processes,the modern scientific method&most branches of science).Dr. Hannam just gave a presentation on this at the Royal Society (1st scientific society in history&started by a creationist).
See the notes in the above link for a tiny overview, but it’s better to watch the whole thing. He has a much more detailed book which Nature and New Scientist have highly recommended.
With all due respect for sincere and admirable atheists out there, atheism is almost entirely built on hiding facts (like these), misrepresenting facts, opposing free thought when it has power, rejecting the weight of scientific evidence and using myriads of fallacies...all for no benefit whatsoever and much harm.
Yes but Achilles the problem is no one is saying that there is anything random about them, they obey strict physical laws , the laws of natural selection. It's not random at all .it's population dynamics , physics, biology, the the very fact that the'chance element if nature is modulated by selection does away with any random element doesn't it,it's like you buy a lucky card, pure chance, if it wins then good, but if it loses you just pick another, till you do win. See?
So the first claim, that random mutations are selected and create different forms of life, is unsustained. The second problem is that there are a vast number of complex systems in nature, and no matter how unglamorous this problem is, no matter how people try to look the other way, the fact is that a huge number of highly complex systems in nature cannot be plausibly accounted for in terms of a gradual build-up of small random mutations. - Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
Own black people as property. Burn or Hang people for heresy. Women are to be silent and yield to their Fathers and Husbands. The older ways are better if you want to live as either an idiot or a supremacist.
@huytr6 It's also called the germ theory of disease, the atomic theory, the theory of gravitation etc.
In science a theory is not a hypothesis, a wild guess or a baseless claim. Theories explain facts. In science a theory is a "conclusion" if you are more comfortable with layman terms rather than "diffucult" scientific terminology.
But what the hell, why do I even bother to lecture a scientific illiterate.
@byteresistor good point why are you trying to explain this to me, and obviously your not that smart if you feel the need to inform "scientific illiterates" in the form comments over youtube
Listen to the learned lady. At least the muslim crazies are still out on the extreme of their religion. In the US, the christian crazies are at the very heart of the religious/political system. If your doctrine is based on the Revelation of St. John there is no better way to implement it than to have control of the most powerful military in the world. The havoc that could wreak would make 9-11 look like carnival fireworks.
The narrator leaves unstated whether by evolution she means biological change over time (easily proven by fossils) or biological change as explained by some particular theory (a never ending source of argument among scientists). Modern Darwinism essentially is not even a theory but a "research program" according to Harvard zoologist Ernst Mayr as quoted in Eugene Windchy's The End of Darwinism.
Life is a paradox....when Christians can explain why males have nipples.......what does the Bible, Koran, and other religions do to resolve the "nipple" issue. There is not function to them for males.......how do we resolve God's inefficiency in giving nipples for "non-functional" purposes. One can theorize, he gave men nipples to give something men and women can share. Clearly, creationism accounts for these "anomalies"
@ianmac2010 How can male nipples NOT cause a problem with christianity? One is the obvious design issue. The other is the contradiction of the disgustingly sexist notion that women are derived from men as an afterthought.
I have heard that male nipples are a problem because they have no function in males.
Nipples have a purpose. The are for erotic pleasure in both males and females, and they appear in every human embryo before we differentiate into males or females because the genes that express this is on a non-sexual chromosome.
God created man and woman to be equal partners. Gen 1 26-27 says God created mankind (male and female) in HIs image.
@ianmac2010 The creation story says that eve was made from adams rib as a 'companion'. This makes her humanity derivative from the male' norm'. The primary purpose of nipples is not for 'erotic pleasure', that is merely an aside (that isn't even true in all individuals). Men have nipples because ' female' is the human template for human beings. Any fetus will automatically become female if no androgens are present- it's the default (which is why I said it contradicted the creation myth).
Everyone, God prepared the Earth before creating Adam, and He prepared Adam before creating Eve. Then He said that Eve was the CROWNING GLORY of all of his creation!
By creating Eve second, it allowed Adam to feel that he was incomplete, something he could not understand otherwise, and it allowed both of them to be related.
Had Eve been created from the dust, they would have only been similar creature and not the same creature. They are referred to as one and the same creature.
Adam proclaims she is flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone, signifying how his affection for her deepened because of how she had been created from him.
So, creating Eve second was a pretty good plan.
Also, fetuses do not develop nipples and automatically become female. The genes passed on by the father determines, at conception, whether a baby is male or female, and nothing else. Nipples are on an asexual chromosome and so has nothing to do with gender differentiation.
@ianmac2010 The question is what SUPPORTS Genesis as anything more than the mythology of dessert nomads who had a poor understanding of how the world works?
What separates Genesis, with its talking snakes and its light appearing before light producing objects from the Hindu belief that the world is supported on the back of a giant tortoise?
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
evolution is not modern science, evolution is a fiction that the darwinian socialist must embrace. the precambrian bloom, the fossil record, the incredible complexity of DNA and a million other things make the case that evolution not a viable option.
@JonathanClement140 Hmmmm, you do not seem to know much about DNA or natural selection. DNA contain error correction mechanisms that hinder, not help variation. Diversity is generally determined by which genes are switched on or not. DNA does not become more complex thru natural selection.
@JonathanClement140 Darwinism may have no connection to politics, but MANY Darwinists DO and they lie about creation science in court habitually..and continue going to court to ban even the freedom to question Darwinism to anyone and worse to students. Worst of all, they ban the fact that the specific concepts and philosophy that BUILT the modern science that you admire so much from schools and keep people completely ignorant of this indisputable fact of history (see below link).
@TruthIsLife7 Have you even read the transcript of Dover v Kitzmiller? If you had you'd see that it was the Creationists (Intelligent Design advocates) who were the ones lying constantly throughout the case.
Cool. Your moving along. Thinking about things in general. Since you believe, as well as I do, that the universe has certain laws....what about the Anthropic Principle? The belief that the universe was created in order to sustain the observer. Sounds crazy? When modern scientists found out how finely tuned this universe was, they concluded that there must be more universes than there are atoms in this universe. Your thoughts?
This universe is not fine tuned by any means, especially not for us.
So far the only planet in the whole universe we know can sustain life is Earth. There are however an untold billions of galaxies with billions of stars. To think that we are the only planet that sustains life is ridiculous.
The universe is huge and rare events happen all the time. There is no indication of fine tuning there anywhere. Fine tuning usually comes with the help of science.
In the science world, I challenge you to take this simple thing into perspective. It has undoubtedly proven that the universe we live in is one of a kind. So much so that they had to conjure up another theory(such as the Anthropic Principle) in order to deny that there is a god. This principle is also based on a world ensemble. If it were true, it means that Santa Claus, Susie Snowflake, Peter from Family Guy & so on exist in other universes.
@TheBroncoTrip So far the only planet in the whole universe we know can sustain life is Earth. There are however an untold billions of galaxies with billions of stars. To think that we are the only planet that sustains life is ridiculous."
CORRECT. And God will not allow man to see any of His majestic worlds until we are with Him in eternity. For those who reject His Son, they will NEVER see any of it.
Or people could put down a book that they say is the work of god and actually promote science so that brilliant minds aren't occupied trying to undo the damage of the ignorant and can focus on more important things.
You keep saying god wants us to find him. Well if he actually does exist, it will be the scientists who actually find him, not the bible thumping tools who claim that science aims to disprove him. Science is simply the search for answers... ALL OF THEM.
"You keep saying god wants us to find him. Well if he actually does exist, it will be the scientists who actually find him"
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
You are not going to convert me or change my mind with quotes from a book written by people who may not have even existed.
Keep your myths for yourself, and please stop sending me private messages trying to convert me.
I do not believe in God, I will never believe in God until there is scientific proof of such a being.
I am the descendant of a god damn monkey and I am down proud to be insignificant on such a fantastic planet in the middle of an even more amazing universe.
Oh yeah, have I ever. I've been a huge fan of AronRa, Tf00t and ZOMGitscriss, for a good long while and thoroughly enjoy the educational material they provide. The main drawback has always been the crazy religious nuts leaving stupid comments. I just couldn't take it anymore and decided to throw in my two cents. Now it looks like I have a religious stalker.
If only I were half as smart as Tf00t or AronRa, not that the creationists would listen regardless... but still.
It REALLY, and I mean REALLY pisses me off that our planet, our civilization and everything we know is on the verge of collapse because of people who somehow think it was our birth right.
We are not above nature, we are part of nature. We are animals and as such should respect and even look after all of the other animals since we are some of the only ones with the capacity to really do it.
We are insignificant. Only through helping the planet will we ever have any amount of significance.
You just explained in direct parallel what evolution is about. Nothing.
Check me if I'm wrong according to your answer. In Quantum Physics, ANY momentum measured along with position which are complimentary concerning ANY subatomic particle is impossible. We don't have that technology.(reference to 'Planck Particles') Therefore, according to Einstein's Theory of relativity, you present no evidence. And you flunk by not answering the question presented to you. :(
As long as the earth endures there will always be heat? WRONG. Heat has been around long before the earth has been around and will continue to exist way after it.
No it is not. Jelly fish and sponges are alive without blood. Plus, blood is manufactured in the bone marrow. Without bone marrow, you would not have blood.
For the life of the flesh is in the blood. You are correct. It's true. For the life of the flesh is in the blood. Not in the bone. BTW- jellyfish & sponges, which are awesome creations, have no bones. They're invertebrates.
Remember. For the life of the flesh is in the blood and not the bone.
//For life of the flesh is in the blood and not in the bone//
Nice try. Jellyfish, as I have said are alive WITHOUT BLOOD AND BONE. How about that, a creature alive without blood, so Leviticus 17:11 is INCORRECT. Life is possible without blood.
@Feredir28" For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
You idiot, it does not matter what is acceptable for a sacrifice. The issue, is that it says very clearly, "The life of the flesh is in the blood" Feredir debunked that. It is dead wrong, Jellyfish are alive, and have no blood. Case closed.
Really? Silentonall, another Christian, who understands the Bible, just admitted to Feredir, that he is correct:
Silentonall- "For the life of the flesh is in the blood. You are correct. It's true"
Are you admitting defeat Bornagain001? With your dodging the obvious that we called you on your bullshit? Furthermore, how can this be interpreted otherwise? "The Life of the Flesh is in the Blood" this passage, is very self-explanitory in what it says!
God has ALWAYS required man to offer a BLOOD SACRIFICE for the repentance of SINS. We clearly see this when Abel's animal sacrifice was accepted by God and Cain's sacrifice was not. Cain killed his brother because God did not accept his sacrifice. Man continues in the footsteps of CAIN even today by trying to be "good enough" instead of accepting the sacrifice God has provided for all mankind.
Not the issue here! What JonathanClement140 is trying to ask, is: why does god need a sacrifice at all? If god is all-loving, and does not want us to go to hell, why does he not simply forgive us? If he's all powerful he could do that easily! Furthermore, why create hell in the first place, if he doesn't want us to go there?
@Tsukasamacleod why create hell in the first place, if he doesn't want us to go there? "
Hell was originally created for Satan and all those millions of demons that currently inhabit our lives. Those who allow Satan to deceive them will also be joining Satan on Judgment Day. God does not "simply forgive" everyone for the same reason our criminal court system DOES NOT simply forgive those who are found guilty.
A court doesn't send people to Jail for a crime they know they didn't do. Or for not believing in them. Furthermore, a court, is not supposed to love us all. God is all loving, and supposidly loves us more than my parents, I know my parents wouldn't want me to be tortured at all! Let alone for all Eternity! Also, you claim that God doesn't want us to go to hell, if he doesn't want us to, why send anyone there at all?
"A court doesn't send people to Jail for a crime they know they didn't do."
And neither does God. If you have kept God's Law (10 Commandments) you don't have anything to worry about. The term "ALL LOVING" is not in the Bible nor is it ever applied to God in the Bible. The term all loving comes from someone who does NOT KNOW GOD.
NO. You are not punished for what Adam or Eve did. They committed the original sin and passed that SIN NATURE on to you but you will be held accountable FOR YOUR OWN SIN.
Not to my understanding. I've read your literature, even the most pious souls like Ghandi go to hell, if they don't beleve in Jesus. While a mass-murderer like Jeffery Dahmer goes to heaven, because he believes in Jesus. It's not about sin, God just loves being reminded that he exists.
Let me give you an analogy: A child, named Peter, is worried, because his parents are going to torture him forever. He doesn't know when it'll happen, but it will happen someday. He's being tortured, because before he was born, his sister Amy, took some cake out of the fridge, after she was told not to by their parents. When they found out about this, they built a torture room, and told Amy that they were mad at her, and were going to torture her one day, but that they loved her.
Continued- Later, Peter's parents had another son, named Jack. At one point, they took Jack to their torture room, and mercilessly tortured him for 3 days. Afterwards, Jack wandered out, and was never seen again. Now, Peter's parents are saying that they will do the same for him someday, only it will be for eternity this time. But, they tell him, that if he says he's sorry for what Amy did, and accept that Jack paid his price, they will forgive him. Now, is this fair, or loving at all?
No, it is cruel, and sadistic. But this is essencially what God does. Why should the millions of "Peter's" all over the world, suffer or apologize for something Eve did?
So then why doesn't he ust punish everybody who's guilty? Just fucking send everybody to hell if that what he feels he needs to do instead of playing this stupid game of sacrificing somebody's physical body and claiming the crime has been payed for! You understand this, but you're too much of a damned coward to admit it.
95% of the weight of jellyfish consists of water. Water and blood both agree.
1 John 5:6-
This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
Therefore, both blood and water agree. God is not a liar. BTW, the specific purpose of the Leviticus verse you mentioned is blood ATONES for one's life.
Sorry. I forgot to sum it up. The blood in the jellyfish is water because both blood and water are in agreement. Indeed even in our blood, water makes up 60% volume.
Another thing. You said, "As long as the earth endures there will always be heat...? WRONG." The actual quote is, "As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, COLD and HEAT,...." It is imperative not to manipulate what is presented unless you can prove it false. According to Astrophysics and Astronomers, heat in the universe is constantly degenerating to cold space.
I have to admit that I am impressed that you read the Bible. Good for you!
Actually, so far as I know scientists have measured that we are slowly getting sucked into the suns gravitational well. This means that in a few billion years we well end up being so close to the sun that the earth will be nothing more than a scorched ball. Seed time and harvest will definitely stop. As it will when we go extinct due to people ignoring science.
Did you also know that the sun is decreasing in diameter 0.1% every century? This also discredits evolution. If we go back 100,000 years, the sun would have to be double it's diameter presently. Records have been kept since 1837 to 1953 on the the sun's near quadrant moving over the Greenwich meridian until it's far quadrant past the Greenwich longitude. It was this evidence that proved evolution is false. Billions of years?
If you took the time to even GOOGLE "Is the sun shrinking" you would find evidence to the contrary.
That shrinking sun BS was from a paper written before science proved that the sun uses fusion to power itself. It also treats the sun as a closed system, which is is not. Asteroids and other debris constantly feed and fuel the sun in the same way food feeds us, though the fusion process makes it far more efficient.
Hydrogen to Helium to Carbon then Oxygen.....and maybe to Iron(Fe...still a theory).
But the Sun burns off 400,000,000 tons of fuel(hydrogen fused to helium.....) everyday. Something during this process has to happen to the diameter of the Sun. It has to shrink.
"The Helmholtz contraction, was the best that scientists could come up with before nuclear fusion was discovered. The heat liberated from vast quantities of falling matter would be enough to make the sun shine. Then nuclear fusion was discovered. The discovery of nuclear fusion (and the realization that the sun's core had the density and temperature to initiate and sustain nuclear fusion) made it clear that this was responsible for the sun's energy."
Again nice try. Heat or cold, or cold and heat, either way, they have both existed way before the earth and they will exist way after the earth. Suns form and die, but even if the earth was destroyed into oblivion today, there are still billions of stars out there generating heat... without the earth.
Thanks mate. I come from a born again evangelical family who put me through years of bible study.
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. Job 26:7"
This was a very controversial statement when it was written. The WORLDVIEW held that the earth sat on the back of a turtle or was held on the shoulders of an Atlas like figure.
It does not matter what WORLDVIEW was held at the time, since you bornagain001 constatnly say that the Bible is infallible and the Word of God.
The bible clearly says "hangeth upon nothing" --not on the back of a turtle.
The Bible says hangeth upon nothing, but that is false since it hangs upon gravity and angular momentum. Beneath -and all around- the earth is empty space (but that is still SOMETHING, not "nothing").
Your REBELLIOUS nature is understandable. I was just like you for many years. As you know..ALL OF US are born atheists. Some of us find Christ in this short journey. Evolution is a MYTH and one of Satan's greatest deceptions. Because of the SIN which you have allowed to consume you, you live in DARKNESS.
Evolutionists assume that non-living chemicals gave rise to that first living cell which, in turn, mindlessly and randomly evolved into ever and ever more complex forms of life. But there are NO scientific experiments to prove the molecules-to-man scenario! It is not scientifically testable or experimentally verifiable or reproducible or able to be authenticated in any way!
And no, that's NOT what scientists say. It was non-living chemichals -> Cells. It was more like non-living chemichals -> Amino Acids -> RNA -> DNA -> Simple Cells.
"And no, that's NOT what scientists say. It was non-living chemichals -> Cells. It was more like non-living chemichals -> Amino Acids -> RNA -> DNA -> Simple Cells."
OH...OK. That makes a lot more sense now! It certainly must take a LOT OF FAITH to believe that fable since it has NEVER BEEN PROVEN.
And again, that's abiogenesis and has nothing to do with evolution! We don't know how how the origin of life came to be yet, but we have some pretty good hypotheses. Evolution, however, has a mountain of evidence backing it up.
And christianity assumes that all of the labor pains, imminent death, and male dominance seen in every last creature on the planet happened because 6000 years ago a talking snake tricked a naked woman made out of a rib to eat forbidden fruit. wheres your scientific experiment to prove that one? bonus question how many differnet kinds of medicine and vaccines have been invented from a young earth creationist understanding of biology?
Who do you think CREATED the people and were given the ability to invent your phone? your car?your meds? Do you honestly believe that NO CHRISTIANS were involved? Are you aware that both the WRIGHT BROTHERS were confessing Christians along with Louis Pasteur, Robert Boyle, George Washington Carver, Michael Faraday, Isaac Newton and MANY OTHERS.
What an ass backward creator! tell me what gods holy plan was for men's nipples, appendix, easily injured testicles, morning wood, wisdom teeth, and tail-bone? all those inventions you describe are the products of an inquisitive mind and don't prove shit as far as god's concerned. Oh and Mark Twain ATHEIST Bruce Lee ATHEIST, Thomas Edison ATHEIST, Bill Gates ATHEIST, Hemmingway ATHEIST, not to mention most scientists(90-95%) are atheists. and the majority of prison inmates are christians
The introduction of science was first introduced in Genesis 2:20, "So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field....."
When I say that evolution is declining...what I really mean is evolution is a dead issue on arrival. It doesn't exist. There is no proof. Never was and there never will be. When you find the missing link and I see you on CNN, then I'll stop thinking critically.
Giving names to animals isn't necessarily science. I'm pretty sure that when language and writing first came about (because we didn't start off already knowing how to talk or write, we had to learn how.) they weren't named in the same manner as they are today. Cat was probably Cat, but that's not scientific naming of an animal, the scientific name (which includes familia, species, sub species, etc) came much later.
I sometimes wish I could be as foolish and ignorant as you silentonall. And that is not intended as a compliment.
If you had any idea how this world, this universe, ACTUALLY worked you would realize just how much it sucks because of people like you. It must be nice to walk around completely ignorant to all of the problems of the world, or to be able to pass them off as "Not my problem" while untold billions suffer because of it.
Tell us, how does the world work oh wise one? Explain away the wisdom and knowledge you accumulated through your secular education and your self-absorbed mind studies? Tell us also, how does the universe actually work?
Well for starters, the heaven and the earth were not created in 7 days. We were not molded like playdough from dirt, women were not crafted from the rib of a man named Adam.
We could go on from there, but you seem to fail pretty hard at grasping this simple concept.
If ever there was a comment deserving of a facepalm, this one would be it.
1 day in the grand scheme of things, especially in regards to the creation of life and the universe, is nothing. God did not pen the bible himself, print it out on a printing press and then ship it to earth from heaven. It was written by MEN! FALLIBLE MEN! BIASED, RACIST, SEXIST MEN!
I have a Secretary at work. Quite often I compose and dictate letters that goes out to clients around the world. The words are mine. The actual writer is my Secretary. Same difference with the men in whom God chose to dictate His message to us.
@bornagain001 - if your secretary so wished to take advantage she could easily write your words down as something else entirely. If she doesn't hear you quite right she could also write down the wrong words. On a similar vein, if you had 12 secretaries and you simply gave them a vague description of what you wanted in a letter, not a word for word account, you would come out with 12 very different letters.
And you're also forgetting, you're real, God isn't.
"And you're also forgetting, you're real, God isn't."
To make such a claim, one would have to be omniscient. It is because the atheist is neither omniscient nor omnipresent that he then takes an ILLOGICAL LEAP by concluding that there is no God, because it CAN NOT BE PROVEN that He doesn't exist. Such reasoning is absurd. Why would anyone try to claim that God doesn't exist when His existence is axiomatic?
I can't prove that there isn't a teapot in orbit around mars, does that mean there is one?
I can be 99.9% certain that there is no god. That is more than good enough for me. It is a matter of probability. The probability that a super natural being, an invisible sky daddy, exists is somewhere in the 0.000000000000001% range.
You can keep taking it on faith, I'm a much bigger fan of proof.
We live on a planet, in a universe. The universe has laws, laws that science tries to figure out and explain. When you ignore those laws, and their consequences, bad things happen.
Ignoring the laws of the universe makes you ignorant.
Our planet is currently slowly dying. Ignorant people have poisoned it. Ignorant people are strip mining it's resources as though they were put here for us. Ignorant people wage war on each other in the name of sky daddies.
Hold on there Hauss! Did you even bother to do any research about education 50 years ago? Do the research! The United States ranked in the top ten among nations when it came to eduction back then. Don't be a spin zone! Among that, it wasn't based on a government holding on to theocracy, but based on a constitution.
Your ignorance is mind blowing and actually makes me mad.
It is not the the fact that teaching evolution was not mandatory that put the US education system in the top ten 50 years ago.
Things have changed in the last 50 years, education in itself has evolved, so has society. Those who have adapted have prospered and have wonderful education systems. Those who refused to adapt got left behind. It's like natural selection except sadly in this case, those who got left behind aren't dying off.
Argumentum ad hominem. Non sequitur. Dicto simplicter.
Maybe if you are going to talk about how crazy religious people are, you should actually meet one before generalizing them all to death. Please never speak again, especially in a field where you don't deserve to be heard in!
She attacks the motives of people with whom she disagrees, but she doesn't really know their motives. I wonder if she is showing us *her* motive: Is she driven by her political agenda?
She also badly misuses the word theocracy. And alliance of Jewish & Christian laymen cannot be called "theocracy" without redefining the term.
It makes no sense to accuse someone of making an Ad Hominem in the context of a description, which is what this is.
The motives of the ID/Creationist movement are well known, and accurately described by the professor in this clip. Please refer to Dover v. Kitsmiller and the Discovery Institute's "Wedge Document"
The word theocracy is used accurately, please refer to a dictionary.
"Is she is just dumb as rocks? Or is she lying?"
Since you asked, neither. Which I could say the same for you.
I know what "theocracy" means. You evidently don't. The term usually refers to rule by clergy. Historically, it has *never* referred to a democratic coalition of laymen from different confessional bodies.
I'll give you half a point. The political ID movement is politically motivated.
But so what?
Members of the intellectual ID movement does not have any one motive, much less one political motive. In that sense, Forrest doesn't even deal with the intellectual ID movement.
I haven't seen Forrest discuss the actual ideas of ID in any of these videos. Did I miss something?
maybe you should learn what " ad hominem" means. She knows very well what she is talking about. She has even proofed in the Dover Trial that Creationism was changed into ID to get religion into the school curriculum. She has written a book: "Creationism's Trojan Horse" and believe me she KNOWS what she is talking about. Ad Hominem: In contrary to YOU.
why did god gave us functionless and disturbing body parts?
>God is not the cause for all of these abnormality,,but it was given and or it depends on every nature..it is cause b y nature or misused of nature causing abnormality..you know that God only created a beatiful body(eve and adam)..
well,the nature i'm talking about is the nature of man to manage and have a good authorities in order to achieved a good way of living in nature resources.he gave us the will or authorities in this world..so why do we have all that?..
Hey lady.. Criationists belive in provable science, they dont believe in evolution which is not science! you're lying to the public to support your lies just because u hold a piece of paper called degree, this does not make u be right! show me the proof evolution is right! SIMPLE!
Wow! Humans!! Oh! Humans!! Humans!! Very bright, smart, intelligent n so wise n there own minds. yet so confused n lost. Just sad! Just so sad!! What a vanity waste of epistomolgy.. if we just have an open heart for truth n seek real truth ask for it we would get it but pride seems to be in the way enough to blind us n not to see.. May God bless us humans!..
579steven 4 months ago
Free will??? Stupid????? The ark fairytale is physically impossible. The talking smake, 600 year old man! The list goes on. Believe what you wish. Religion is evil and controlling.
allanhill1 4 months ago 2
The odds of amino acid occuring naturally are 10 to the SIXTY-FOURTH POWER to 1. This exceeds statistical possibility. It CANNOT have happened on its own in all of geologic time. To believe it did, requires far more faith than it takes to believe in God. To accuse believers in God of foolishness while believing instead in the 'natural' origin of life is DELIBERATE INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY.
horselips 5 months ago
@horselips
you are doing a Hoyle's fallacy. your numbers are all wrongs. 1) nothing can exceed statistical possibility. if you have a possibility, that means it can happen, no matter how unlikely. people win the lottery every year, multiple times, right?
Plus.... Abiogenesis is not evolution. stop being so fucking dumb.
if you want to play: Try explain AB resistance or Plant speciation without using evolution theory!
go.
transtlantic 5 months ago
The purpose of the truth is to set us free.
It has nothing to do with "religion". Religion is a strawman.
Truth rules! Truth is the foundation of living our lives.
Objects and mutations do not order any functions. Get that straight.
watch?v=lEledPONpkQ
JungleJargon 5 months ago
@JungleJargon
you are doing a reification fallacy. Truth is not an individual entity.
Religion has all to do with the nonsense that you post here.
Truth: you can't explain Plant speciation without using evolution theory.
watch?v=jJ0a-HuI55E
transtlantic 5 months ago
@transtlantic Plant speciation is the result of the variation of species cause by the limited information in the genome.
Truth is what God is. All scientific observation is relative and God's word is eternal.
Religion is not what Christian teaching is about. Whatever you know about Religion, it is not what Christian teaching is. Christian teaching is about knowing the truth.
JungleJargon 5 months ago
@JungleJargon
"variation of species"? lolol your made up bullshit is hilarious. how the fuck can a species vary with limits? you are fucking retarded. try make sense next time.
"Truth" isn't an individual entity, you are doing a reification fallacy. only what has proof for is true. god has no proof for, so god is a falsehood.
"is relative and god's word is eternal"? utterly made up shit.
Christianity IS a religion. check the encyclopedia.
You are JUSt full of shit.
transtlantic 5 months ago
@transtlantic The limits of a dog species is that it can only always be a dog.
The function of hydrogen is proof of God, so God is true.
It is true that only our Maker can help us because there is no evidence of anyone else who can help us.
The teaching of Christianity is based on what our Maker can do for us.
Religion is what man tries to do for himself.
JungleJargon 5 months ago
@JungleJargon
A dog is 1 species (subspecies actually) and one day it might speciate. the Dog has an ancestor which wasn't a dog - the Wolf.
Hydrogen is proof that god doesn't exist.. So God = falsehood.
There is no maker. If you have an accident you go to a hospital. so there is evidence that someone helps us and that there is no god anywhere for you.
There is no maker. christianity is full of buy bull induced shit.
Religion is made to control people. nothing else.
transtlantic 5 months ago
@transtlantic Dogs and wolves can mate and have little wolf dogs. That means that a dog is the same thing as a wolf. I shouldn't have to explain that to you.
Hydrogen functions as intended in life forms according to a preexisting word, none of which is possible without a Maker God.
The hospital can't help your mutation condition. Mutations will win eventually.
Our Maker is able to remake us all over again.
Religion is a strawman argument. The issue is that hydrogen shows we have a Maker.
JungleJargon 5 months ago
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@JungleJargon
" Dogs and wolves can mate and have little wolf dogs. That means that a dog is the same thing as a wolf. I shouldn't have to explain that to you."
Yeah whatever, a horse and a donkey make a mule, which is sterile. That is a better example. Two species just seperated enough to reproduce, but not reproduce in kind. You are wrong.
joestfrancois 5 months ago
@JungleJargon
"little wolf dogs". wrong, they mate and produce a hybrid between a dog and a wolf. it's neither wolf or dog.
The dog is a subspecies, the wold a species. there's a difference. I keep teaching you new things. learn
Hydrogen functions are proof that no design, preexisting words or maker or even gods exist. ALL nature is direct evidence against design
The hospital does "win" plenty of times. for example: Cystic fibrosis was the first genetic disorder cured when it affects the lung
transtlantic 5 months ago
@JungleJargon Our maker is able to remake us all over again you say ..Why did he create the flood and destroy almost every one but make noah and family work so hard and collect all the animals etc etc etc.. These are crazy stories This supposed god would just have killed everyone and remake everyone. If he was perfect then he would have made us perfect and wouldnt require killing everyone . Good grief these stories are stupid
allanhill1 5 months ago
@allanhill1 So you think that your free will is stupid.
The animals came to Noah. If you had ever gone to Sunday School, you would or should have known that.
JungleJargon 4 months ago
@JungleJargon And you actually BELIEVE that??? Do you still believe in Santa too?
nancy6ify 3 months ago
@nancy6ify I believe that we have a history and I believe that biblical history is the most accurate history because specific things said in the Bible have been proven with specific archeological findings that verify the biblical accounts thousands of times over. So I believe what has the most evidence.
watch?v=HoKVVYJ8KJM
JungleJargon 3 months ago
@JungleJargon By your logic, Spiderman exists, because the city spiderman lives in actually exists.
amandarandom89 3 months ago
@amandarandom89
Spider man does exist!!! Haven't you seen the film??? They had him filmed!!!! If you think that was faked??? PROVE IT!!
Now apply the same logic to god and you will find Jesus in your heart!!!
(I'm atheist, just saving creationists the effort).
OptimalElement 2 months ago
@TruthIsLife7 - "...how would you like it if all evolution was apriori banned from consideration just because it had Darwin's name attached to it?"
Like creationists are trying to do in public schools?
TLI7 - "It's exactly the same when you ban something from science just because it has religious connections."
Science doesn't "ban" anything. Science requires observable evidence and testable theories. Superstitious beliefs cannot provide such evidence and are dismissed for that reason alone.
Terncote 6 months ago
@TruthIsLife7 - "...it was Christianity & creationist concepts that laid the foundations for modern science in many ways..."
Nonsense. These disciplines developed despite the constant and often violent repression by Christianity. Early scientists professed Christian beliefs because it was dangerous to do otherwise. If you wanted an education or a career in science, you had to kiss papal ass. If people like Newton and Kepler had the benefit of a modern, secular education, they'd be Atheists.
Terncote 6 months ago
@LemUUU It would be difficult to misrepresent science&religion worse than your post.Atheism&theism existed for 1000s of years,but it was Christianity & creationist concepts that laid the foundations for modern science in many ways(pioneering processes,the modern scientific method&most branches of science).Dr. Hannam just gave a presentation on this at the Royal Society (1st scientific society in history&started by a creationist).
watch?v=I-k24Q01vck
Why do atheists distort history so much?
TruthIsLife7 6 months ago
See the notes in the above link for a tiny overview, but it’s better to watch the whole thing. He has a much more detailed book which Nature and New Scientist have highly recommended.
With all due respect for sincere and admirable atheists out there, atheism is almost entirely built on hiding facts (like these), misrepresenting facts, opposing free thought when it has power, rejecting the weight of scientific evidence and using myriads of fallacies...all for no benefit whatsoever and much harm.
TruthIsLife7 6 months ago
@TruthIsLife7 Really?? What scientific evidence do you have that Goddidit??
atheistram 6 months ago
Yes but Achilles the problem is no one is saying that there is anything random about them, they obey strict physical laws , the laws of natural selection. It's not random at all .it's population dynamics , physics, biology, the the very fact that the'chance element if nature is modulated by selection does away with any random element doesn't it,it's like you buy a lucky card, pure chance, if it wins then good, but if it loses you just pick another, till you do win. See?
Budfam74 6 months ago
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So the first claim, that random mutations are selected and create different forms of life, is unsustained. The second problem is that there are a vast number of complex systems in nature, and no matter how unglamorous this problem is, no matter how people try to look the other way, the fact is that a huge number of highly complex systems in nature cannot be plausibly accounted for in terms of a gradual build-up of small random mutations. - Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
achilles197474 9 months ago
well spoken!
Bem dito!
ZZzzzzzWhat 10 months ago
Ignorancia..
portusim75 1 year ago
man i hate it when idiots from the athiest point of view or idiots from the creationist point of view tend to make everyone look like idiots
Squweesh 1 year ago
@Squweesh he he... you idiot.. good point... with kindest regrads from an idiotic atheist
mjusiqtube 10 months ago
the camera that ur using to film this video is the product of modern science...
joshua00719 1 year ago
Own black people as property. Burn or Hang people for heresy. Women are to be silent and yield to their Fathers and Husbands. The older ways are better if you want to live as either an idiot or a supremacist.
granddad2002 1 year ago 3
you guys, she has a phd, that means she is smarter than you
packerfan748 1 year ago
what a dumb ass how much hard evidence is their backing up evolution, need i remind you people its called the big bang "THEORY"
huytr6 1 year ago
@huytr6 It's also called the germ theory of disease, the atomic theory, the theory of gravitation etc.
In science a theory is not a hypothesis, a wild guess or a baseless claim. Theories explain facts. In science a theory is a "conclusion" if you are more comfortable with layman terms rather than "diffucult" scientific terminology.
But what the hell, why do I even bother to lecture a scientific illiterate.
byteresistor 1 year ago
@byteresistor good point why are you trying to explain this to me, and obviously your not that smart if you feel the need to inform "scientific illiterates" in the form comments over youtube
huytr6 1 year ago
@huytr6 DNA, Fossil Record, Geology, Palaeontology, Carbon Dating
lewisner 1 year ago
@huytr6 "Theory" in science is the term used for widely accepted idea
Ultimatevilperson1 1 year ago
@Ultimatevilperson1 let me finish that for you for widely accepted ideas THAT haven't been proven fact
huytr6 1 year ago
Religion the foundation of public policy? That is scarier than a mortgage in Toronto!
BOULDERDP 1 year ago
Nipples! hehehehehehehe! He said nipples!
tcpaladinvideo 1 year ago
Listen to the learned lady. At least the muslim crazies are still out on the extreme of their religion. In the US, the christian crazies are at the very heart of the religious/political system. If your doctrine is based on the Revelation of St. John there is no better way to implement it than to have control of the most powerful military in the world. The havoc that could wreak would make 9-11 look like carnival fireworks.
DickusCopernicus 1 year ago
The narrator leaves unstated whether by evolution she means biological change over time (easily proven by fossils) or biological change as explained by some particular theory (a never ending source of argument among scientists). Modern Darwinism essentially is not even a theory but a "research program" according to Harvard zoologist Ernst Mayr as quoted in Eugene Windchy's The End of Darwinism.
luftigus 1 year ago
Life is a paradox....when Christians can explain why males have nipples.......what does the Bible, Koran, and other religions do to resolve the "nipple" issue. There is not function to them for males.......how do we resolve God's inefficiency in giving nipples for "non-functional" purposes. One can theorize, he gave men nipples to give something men and women can share. Clearly, creationism accounts for these "anomalies"
brahud 1 year ago
@brahud
What is your fascination with male nipples? And what "issue" or problem do you suppose it causes with Christianity?
ianmac2010 1 year ago
@ianmac2010 How can male nipples NOT cause a problem with christianity? One is the obvious design issue. The other is the contradiction of the disgustingly sexist notion that women are derived from men as an afterthought.
Bumblybee256 1 year ago
@Bumblybee256
I have heard that male nipples are a problem because they have no function in males.
Nipples have a purpose. The are for erotic pleasure in both males and females, and they appear in every human embryo before we differentiate into males or females because the genes that express this is on a non-sexual chromosome.
God created man and woman to be equal partners. Gen 1 26-27 says God created mankind (male and female) in HIs image.
Anyway who says different is far away from God.
ianmac2010 1 year ago
@ianmac2010 The creation story says that eve was made from adams rib as a 'companion'. This makes her humanity derivative from the male' norm'. The primary purpose of nipples is not for 'erotic pleasure', that is merely an aside (that isn't even true in all individuals). Men have nipples because ' female' is the human template for human beings. Any fetus will automatically become female if no androgens are present- it's the default (which is why I said it contradicted the creation myth).
Bumblybee256 1 year ago
@Bumblybee256
Are you saying that Adam has a companion but Eve doesn't? Of course not. While Eve is Adam's companion, Adam is Eve's companion.
I don't think the obvious truth has any affect on you.
I never said the primary purpose of nipples was pleasure. I said nipples in men have a purpose. Secondly, nipples are on an asexual chromosome.
The theory that all fetuses begin as female is just that, a theory. And even if true, explain how that invalidates Genesis?
ianmac2010 1 year ago
Everyone, God prepared the Earth before creating Adam, and He prepared Adam before creating Eve. Then He said that Eve was the CROWNING GLORY of all of his creation!
By creating Eve second, it allowed Adam to feel that he was incomplete, something he could not understand otherwise, and it allowed both of them to be related.
Had Eve been created from the dust, they would have only been similar creature and not the same creature. They are referred to as one and the same creature.
ianmac2010 1 year ago
Adam proclaims she is flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone, signifying how his affection for her deepened because of how she had been created from him.
So, creating Eve second was a pretty good plan.
Also, fetuses do not develop nipples and automatically become female. The genes passed on by the father determines, at conception, whether a baby is male or female, and nothing else. Nipples are on an asexual chromosome and so has nothing to do with gender differentiation.
ianmac2010 1 year ago
@ianmac2010 You're a waste of genetic material. Please, don't have kids.
grimordwow 1 year ago
@ianmac2010 It's just a story made up by ancient people. It bears no relationship to actual history or biology.
AThagoras 1 year ago
@ianmac2010 The question is what SUPPORTS Genesis as anything more than the mythology of dessert nomads who had a poor understanding of how the world works?
What separates Genesis, with its talking snakes and its light appearing before light producing objects from the Hindu belief that the world is supported on the back of a giant tortoise?
70m0kun 1 year ago
This is pretty scary stuff.
freethinker923 1 year ago
Evolution the most wonderful proces of man`s journey. It`s not over. Where will it lead us ?
lizazoon 1 year ago
@lizazoon
To hell!
altrisk 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
evolution is not modern science, evolution is a fiction that the darwinian socialist must embrace. the precambrian bloom, the fossil record, the incredible complexity of DNA and a million other things make the case that evolution not a viable option.
prodeathadvocate666 2 years ago
DNA is complex because of natural selection.
"Darwinism" has nothing to do with politics. Please don't be so abysmally ignorant.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago 17
@JonathanClement140 Hmmmm, you do not seem to know much about DNA or natural selection. DNA contain error correction mechanisms that hinder, not help variation. Diversity is generally determined by which genes are switched on or not. DNA does not become more complex thru natural selection.
gcnengineer 1 year ago
@gcnengineer What mechanisms are those?
JonathanClement140 1 year ago
@JonathanClement140 you're kidding right? polymerase for one.
gcnengineer 1 year ago
@JonathanClement140 Darwinism may have no connection to politics, but MANY Darwinists DO and they lie about creation science in court habitually..and continue going to court to ban even the freedom to question Darwinism to anyone and worse to students. Worst of all, they ban the fact that the specific concepts and philosophy that BUILT the modern science that you admire so much from schools and keep people completely ignorant of this indisputable fact of history (see below link).
TruthIsLife7 6 months ago
@TruthIsLife7 Have you even read the transcript of Dover v Kitzmiller? If you had you'd see that it was the Creationists (Intelligent Design advocates) who were the ones lying constantly throughout the case.
atheistram 6 months ago
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Cool. Your moving along. Thinking about things in general. Since you believe, as well as I do, that the universe has certain laws....what about the Anthropic Principle? The belief that the universe was created in order to sustain the observer. Sounds crazy? When modern scientists found out how finely tuned this universe was, they concluded that there must be more universes than there are atoms in this universe. Your thoughts?
silentonall 2 years ago
@silentonall
This universe is not fine tuned by any means, especially not for us.
So far the only planet in the whole universe we know can sustain life is Earth. There are however an untold billions of galaxies with billions of stars. To think that we are the only planet that sustains life is ridiculous.
The universe is huge and rare events happen all the time. There is no indication of fine tuning there anywhere. Fine tuning usually comes with the help of science.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
Ratio of Electrons:Protons 1:1037
Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity 1:1040
Expansion Rate of Universe 1:1055
Mass of Universe1 1:1059
Cosmological Constant 1:10120
These are just a few.
silentonall 2 years ago
In the science world, I challenge you to take this simple thing into perspective. It has undoubtedly proven that the universe we live in is one of a kind. So much so that they had to conjure up another theory(such as the Anthropic Principle) in order to deny that there is a god. This principle is also based on a world ensemble. If it were true, it means that Santa Claus, Susie Snowflake, Peter from Family Guy & so on exist in other universes.
silentonall 2 years ago
@TheBroncoTrip So far the only planet in the whole universe we know can sustain life is Earth. There are however an untold billions of galaxies with billions of stars. To think that we are the only planet that sustains life is ridiculous."
CORRECT. And God will not allow man to see any of His majestic worlds until we are with Him in eternity. For those who reject His Son, they will NEVER see any of it.
bornagain001 2 years ago
Or people could put down a book that they say is the work of god and actually promote science so that brilliant minds aren't occupied trying to undo the damage of the ignorant and can focus on more important things.
You keep saying god wants us to find him. Well if he actually does exist, it will be the scientists who actually find him, not the bible thumping tools who claim that science aims to disprove him. Science is simply the search for answers... ALL OF THEM.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
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"You keep saying god wants us to find him. Well if he actually does exist, it will be the scientists who actually find him"
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:2-4
bornagain001 2 years ago
You are not going to convert me or change my mind with quotes from a book written by people who may not have even existed.
Keep your myths for yourself, and please stop sending me private messages trying to convert me.
I do not believe in God, I will never believe in God until there is scientific proof of such a being.
I am the descendant of a god damn monkey and I am down proud to be insignificant on such a fantastic planet in the middle of an even more amazing universe.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago 3
@TheBroncoTrip
BornAgain001 is a complete and total freak. I'm sure you've figured this out by now....
1ProudFemaleAtheist 2 years ago 2
@ProudFemale
Oh yeah, have I ever. I've been a huge fan of AronRa, Tf00t and ZOMGitscriss, for a good long while and thoroughly enjoy the educational material they provide. The main drawback has always been the crazy religious nuts leaving stupid comments. I just couldn't take it anymore and decided to throw in my two cents. Now it looks like I have a religious stalker.
If only I were half as smart as Tf00t or AronRa, not that the creationists would listen regardless... but still.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
@TheBroncoTrip
Does the freak send you long emails quoting scripture?
I've received several also....
1ProudFemaleAtheist 2 years ago
@ProudFemale
Yep, that's exactly what I have received. It's almost creepy. Like.. little daemon stalking people in a horror movie creepy.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
It REALLY, and I mean REALLY pisses me off that our planet, our civilization and everything we know is on the verge of collapse because of people who somehow think it was our birth right.
We are not above nature, we are part of nature. We are animals and as such should respect and even look after all of the other animals since we are some of the only ones with the capacity to really do it.
We are insignificant. Only through helping the planet will we ever have any amount of significance.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
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silentonall 2 years ago
Crash Quiz. Anybody. Right now. Prove this wrong:
Genesis 8:22 -
"As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease."
I love God. His ways are righteous and true. In Him, there is no lie. His Word endures forever.
silentonall 2 years ago
I can prove this wrong-
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. Job 26:7
Nothing -nonexistent, not anything
The earth does 'hang' on gravity and angular momentum. That is SOMETHING.
Beneath the earth, there is empty space, but that is still SOMETHING.
Feredir28 2 years ago
You just explained in direct parallel what evolution is about. Nothing.
Check me if I'm wrong according to your answer. In Quantum Physics, ANY momentum measured along with position which are complimentary concerning ANY subatomic particle is impossible. We don't have that technology.(reference to 'Planck Particles') Therefore, according to Einstein's Theory of relativity, you present no evidence. And you flunk by not answering the question presented to you. :(
silentonall 2 years ago
Quantum physics has nothing to do with biology.
Fine I will answer the question.
As long as the earth endures there will always be heat? WRONG. Heat has been around long before the earth has been around and will continue to exist way after it.
I can debunk more bible crap.
For the life of the flesh is in the blood.
Leviticus 17:11
No it is not. Jelly fish and sponges are alive without blood. Plus, blood is manufactured in the bone marrow. Without bone marrow, you would not have blood.
Feredir28 2 years ago
For the life of the flesh is in the blood. You are correct. It's true. For the life of the flesh is in the blood. Not in the bone. BTW- jellyfish & sponges, which are awesome creations, have no bones. They're invertebrates.
Remember. For the life of the flesh is in the blood and not the bone.
silentonall 2 years ago
//For life of the flesh is in the blood and not in the bone//
Nice try. Jellyfish, as I have said are alive WITHOUT BLOOD AND BONE. How about that, a creature alive without blood, so Leviticus 17:11 is INCORRECT. Life is possible without blood.
Feredir28 2 years ago
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@Feredir28" For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
Leviticus 17:11
You left out the rest of the verse which indicates Jellyfish were NOT ACCEPTABLE sacrifices because they have no blood.
bornagain001 2 years ago
You idiot, it does not matter what is acceptable for a sacrifice. The issue, is that it says very clearly, "The life of the flesh is in the blood" Feredir debunked that. It is dead wrong, Jellyfish are alive, and have no blood. Case closed.
Tsukasamacleod 2 years ago
Your understanding of the verse is skewed because of the SIN which CONSUMES YOUR LIFE.
bornagain001 2 years ago
Really? Silentonall, another Christian, who understands the Bible, just admitted to Feredir, that he is correct:
Silentonall- "For the life of the flesh is in the blood. You are correct. It's true"
Are you admitting defeat Bornagain001? With your dodging the obvious that we called you on your bullshit? Furthermore, how can this be interpreted otherwise? "The Life of the Flesh is in the Blood" this passage, is very self-explanitory in what it says!
Tsukasamacleod 2 years ago
Which is all bullshit superstition. An omnipotent God wouldn't NEED blood to atone for sins. Your God is man made.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
God has ALWAYS required man to offer a BLOOD SACRIFICE for the repentance of SINS. We clearly see this when Abel's animal sacrifice was accepted by God and Cain's sacrifice was not. Cain killed his brother because God did not accept his sacrifice. Man continues in the footsteps of CAIN even today by trying to be "good enough" instead of accepting the sacrifice God has provided for all mankind.
bornagain001 2 years ago
Well, that's just stupid.
I bet you a grahams number of dollars that I'd make a better God than Yahweh.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
Not the issue here! What JonathanClement140 is trying to ask, is: why does god need a sacrifice at all? If god is all-loving, and does not want us to go to hell, why does he not simply forgive us? If he's all powerful he could do that easily! Furthermore, why create hell in the first place, if he doesn't want us to go there?
Tsukasamacleod 2 years ago
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@Tsukasamacleod why create hell in the first place, if he doesn't want us to go there? "
Hell was originally created for Satan and all those millions of demons that currently inhabit our lives. Those who allow Satan to deceive them will also be joining Satan on Judgment Day. God does not "simply forgive" everyone for the same reason our criminal court system DOES NOT simply forgive those who are found guilty.
bornagain001 2 years ago
A court doesn't send people to Jail for a crime they know they didn't do. Or for not believing in them. Furthermore, a court, is not supposed to love us all. God is all loving, and supposidly loves us more than my parents, I know my parents wouldn't want me to be tortured at all! Let alone for all Eternity! Also, you claim that God doesn't want us to go to hell, if he doesn't want us to, why send anyone there at all?
Tsukasamacleod 2 years ago
"A court doesn't send people to Jail for a crime they know they didn't do."
And neither does God. If you have kept God's Law (10 Commandments) you don't have anything to worry about. The term "ALL LOVING" is not in the Bible nor is it ever applied to God in the Bible. The term all loving comes from someone who does NOT KNOW GOD.
bornagain001 2 years ago
The 10 commandments are one thing, but "Original Sin" is another, are you saying that you deserve to be punished for what Eve did?
Tsukasamacleod 2 years ago
NO. You are not punished for what Adam or Eve did. They committed the original sin and passed that SIN NATURE on to you but you will be held accountable FOR YOUR OWN SIN.
bornagain001 2 years ago
Not to my understanding. I've read your literature, even the most pious souls like Ghandi go to hell, if they don't beleve in Jesus. While a mass-murderer like Jeffery Dahmer goes to heaven, because he believes in Jesus. It's not about sin, God just loves being reminded that he exists.
Tsukasamacleod 2 years ago
So, why did God LET that sin nature get passed down?
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
Let me give you an analogy: A child, named Peter, is worried, because his parents are going to torture him forever. He doesn't know when it'll happen, but it will happen someday. He's being tortured, because before he was born, his sister Amy, took some cake out of the fridge, after she was told not to by their parents. When they found out about this, they built a torture room, and told Amy that they were mad at her, and were going to torture her one day, but that they loved her.
Tsukasamacleod 2 years ago
Continued- Later, Peter's parents had another son, named Jack. At one point, they took Jack to their torture room, and mercilessly tortured him for 3 days. Afterwards, Jack wandered out, and was never seen again. Now, Peter's parents are saying that they will do the same for him someday, only it will be for eternity this time. But, they tell him, that if he says he's sorry for what Amy did, and accept that Jack paid his price, they will forgive him. Now, is this fair, or loving at all?
Tsukasamacleod 2 years ago
No, it is cruel, and sadistic. But this is essencially what God does. Why should the millions of "Peter's" all over the world, suffer or apologize for something Eve did?
Tsukasamacleod 2 years ago
So then why doesn't he ust punish everybody who's guilty? Just fucking send everybody to hell if that what he feels he needs to do instead of playing this stupid game of sacrificing somebody's physical body and claiming the crime has been payed for! You understand this, but you're too much of a damned coward to admit it.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
When was the last time you saw a court that crippled people for life for Jay Walking?
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
95% of the weight of jellyfish consists of water. Water and blood both agree.
1 John 5:6-
This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
Therefore, both blood and water agree. God is not a liar. BTW, the specific purpose of the Leviticus verse you mentioned is blood ATONES for one's life.
silentonall 2 years ago
For now I will reframe from arguing your scripture of John and God being a liar and stay on topic.
Like you said later on, water makes 60% of the volume of blood -but that is just the VOLUME, it is not what makes blood blood!!!
Jellyfish do not have a circulatory system at all.
Sponges have no blood, they have no circulatory system.
btw, I am not focusing on Lev. commanding what makes a good atonement. It clearly says what the life of the flesh is, so Im only examining that.
Feredir28 2 years ago
Sorry. I forgot to sum it up. The blood in the jellyfish is water because both blood and water are in agreement. Indeed even in our blood, water makes up 60% volume.
silentonall 2 years ago
Another thing. You said, "As long as the earth endures there will always be heat...? WRONG." The actual quote is, "As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, COLD and HEAT,...." It is imperative not to manipulate what is presented unless you can prove it false. According to Astrophysics and Astronomers, heat in the universe is constantly degenerating to cold space.
I have to admit that I am impressed that you read the Bible. Good for you!
silentonall 2 years ago
Actually, so far as I know scientists have measured that we are slowly getting sucked into the suns gravitational well. This means that in a few billion years we well end up being so close to the sun that the earth will be nothing more than a scorched ball. Seed time and harvest will definitely stop. As it will when we go extinct due to people ignoring science.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
Did you also know that the sun is decreasing in diameter 0.1% every century? This also discredits evolution. If we go back 100,000 years, the sun would have to be double it's diameter presently. Records have been kept since 1837 to 1953 on the the sun's near quadrant moving over the Greenwich meridian until it's far quadrant past the Greenwich longitude. It was this evidence that proved evolution is false. Billions of years?
silentonall 2 years ago
@silentonall
If you took the time to even GOOGLE "Is the sun shrinking" you would find evidence to the contrary.
That shrinking sun BS was from a paper written before science proved that the sun uses fusion to power itself. It also treats the sun as a closed system, which is is not. Asteroids and other debris constantly feed and fuel the sun in the same way food feeds us, though the fusion process makes it far more efficient.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
The composition of the sun...let's see.
Hydrogen to Helium to Carbon then Oxygen.....and maybe to Iron(Fe...still a theory).
But the Sun burns off 400,000,000 tons of fuel(hydrogen fused to helium.....) everyday. Something during this process has to happen to the diameter of the Sun. It has to shrink.
silentonall 2 years ago
@silentonall
"The Helmholtz contraction, was the best that scientists could come up with before nuclear fusion was discovered. The heat liberated from vast quantities of falling matter would be enough to make the sun shine. Then nuclear fusion was discovered. The discovery of nuclear fusion (and the realization that the sun's core had the density and temperature to initiate and sustain nuclear fusion) made it clear that this was responsible for the sun's energy."
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
Again nice try. Heat or cold, or cold and heat, either way, they have both existed way before the earth and they will exist way after the earth. Suns form and die, but even if the earth was destroyed into oblivion today, there are still billions of stars out there generating heat... without the earth.
Thanks mate. I come from a born again evangelical family who put me through years of bible study.
Feredir28 2 years ago
"I can prove this wrong-
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. Job 26:7"
This was a very controversial statement when it was written. The WORLDVIEW held that the earth sat on the back of a turtle or was held on the shoulders of an Atlas like figure.
bornagain001 2 years ago
It does not matter what WORLDVIEW was held at the time, since you bornagain001 constatnly say that the Bible is infallible and the Word of God.
The bible clearly says "hangeth upon nothing" --not on the back of a turtle.
The Bible says hangeth upon nothing, but that is false since it hangs upon gravity and angular momentum. Beneath -and all around- the earth is empty space (but that is still SOMETHING, not "nothing").
Feredir28 2 years ago
Your REBELLIOUS nature is understandable. I was just like you for many years. As you know..ALL OF US are born atheists. Some of us find Christ in this short journey. Evolution is a MYTH and one of Satan's greatest deceptions. Because of the SIN which you have allowed to consume you, you live in DARKNESS.
bornagain001 2 years ago
Why is evolution a myth? Please explain it.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
Evolutionists assume that non-living chemicals gave rise to that first living cell which, in turn, mindlessly and randomly evolved into ever and ever more complex forms of life. But there are NO scientific experiments to prove the molecules-to-man scenario! It is not scientifically testable or experimentally verifiable or reproducible or able to be authenticated in any way!
bornagain001 2 years ago
That's abiogenesis! Not evolution!
And no, that's NOT what scientists say. It was non-living chemichals -> Cells. It was more like non-living chemichals -> Amino Acids -> RNA -> DNA -> Simple Cells.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"And no, that's NOT what scientists say. It was non-living chemichals -> Cells. It was more like non-living chemichals -> Amino Acids -> RNA -> DNA -> Simple Cells."
OH...OK. That makes a lot more sense now! It certainly must take a LOT OF FAITH to believe that fable since it has NEVER BEEN PROVEN.
bornagain001 2 years ago
And again, that's abiogenesis and has nothing to do with evolution! We don't know how how the origin of life came to be yet, but we have some pretty good hypotheses. Evolution, however, has a mountain of evidence backing it up.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
And christianity assumes that all of the labor pains, imminent death, and male dominance seen in every last creature on the planet happened because 6000 years ago a talking snake tricked a naked woman made out of a rib to eat forbidden fruit. wheres your scientific experiment to prove that one? bonus question how many differnet kinds of medicine and vaccines have been invented from a young earth creationist understanding of biology?
johnnythesailorman 2 years ago
Oh, don't you know, silly? That is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED! You won't find proof of that unless you open your heart![/sarcasm]
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
lolz!!!
johnnythesailorman 2 years ago
Who do you think CREATED the people and were given the ability to invent your phone? your car?your meds? Do you honestly believe that NO CHRISTIANS were involved? Are you aware that both the WRIGHT BROTHERS were confessing Christians along with Louis Pasteur, Robert Boyle, George Washington Carver, Michael Faraday, Isaac Newton and MANY OTHERS.
bornagain001 2 years ago
What an ass backward creator! tell me what gods holy plan was for men's nipples, appendix, easily injured testicles, morning wood, wisdom teeth, and tail-bone? all those inventions you describe are the products of an inquisitive mind and don't prove shit as far as god's concerned. Oh and Mark Twain ATHEIST Bruce Lee ATHEIST, Thomas Edison ATHEIST, Bill Gates ATHEIST, Hemmingway ATHEIST, not to mention most scientists(90-95%) are atheists. and the majority of prison inmates are christians
(74%)
johnnythesailorman 2 years ago
The introduction of science was first introduced in Genesis 2:20, "So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field....."
When I say that evolution is declining...what I really mean is evolution is a dead issue on arrival. It doesn't exist. There is no proof. Never was and there never will be. When you find the missing link and I see you on CNN, then I'll stop thinking critically.
silentonall 2 years ago
Giving names to animals isn't necessarily science. I'm pretty sure that when language and writing first came about (because we didn't start off already knowing how to talk or write, we had to learn how.) they weren't named in the same manner as they are today. Cat was probably Cat, but that's not scientific naming of an animal, the scientific name (which includes familia, species, sub species, etc) came much later.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
I sometimes wish I could be as foolish and ignorant as you silentonall. And that is not intended as a compliment.
If you had any idea how this world, this universe, ACTUALLY worked you would realize just how much it sucks because of people like you. It must be nice to walk around completely ignorant to all of the problems of the world, or to be able to pass them off as "Not my problem" while untold billions suffer because of it.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
"I sometimes wish I could be as foolish and ignorant as you silentonall."
"Professing THEMSELVES to be wise, THEY BECAME FOOLS." Romans 1:22
bornagain001 2 years ago
Maybe you should turn that quote around and apply it to yourself?
I love how you fling quotes from the bible at me when they could equally apply to yourself.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
Indeed, you haven't read the whole chapter and understood it.
Nice try. :)
silentonall 2 years ago
Tell us, how does the world work oh wise one? Explain away the wisdom and knowledge you accumulated through your secular education and your self-absorbed mind studies? Tell us also, how does the universe actually work?
silentonall 2 years ago
Well for starters, the heaven and the earth were not created in 7 days. We were not molded like playdough from dirt, women were not crafted from the rib of a man named Adam.
We could go on from there, but you seem to fail pretty hard at grasping this simple concept.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
"Well for starters, the heaven and the earth were not created in 7 days."
YOU ARE CORRECT. God's infallible Word tells us it was SIX DAYS.
bornagain001 2 years ago
If ever there was a comment deserving of a facepalm, this one would be it.
1 day in the grand scheme of things, especially in regards to the creation of life and the universe, is nothing. God did not pen the bible himself, print it out on a printing press and then ship it to earth from heaven. It was written by MEN! FALLIBLE MEN! BIASED, RACIST, SEXIST MEN!
Is it REALLY that hard to understand?
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
I have a Secretary at work. Quite often I compose and dictate letters that goes out to clients around the world. The words are mine. The actual writer is my Secretary. Same difference with the men in whom God chose to dictate His message to us.
bornagain001 2 years ago
@bornagain001 - if your secretary so wished to take advantage she could easily write your words down as something else entirely. If she doesn't hear you quite right she could also write down the wrong words. On a similar vein, if you had 12 secretaries and you simply gave them a vague description of what you wanted in a letter, not a word for word account, you would come out with 12 very different letters.
And you're also forgetting, you're real, God isn't.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
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"And you're also forgetting, you're real, God isn't."
To make such a claim, one would have to be omniscient. It is because the atheist is neither omniscient nor omnipresent that he then takes an ILLOGICAL LEAP by concluding that there is no God, because it CAN NOT BE PROVEN that He doesn't exist. Such reasoning is absurd. Why would anyone try to claim that God doesn't exist when His existence is axiomatic?
bornagain001 2 years ago
You can't prove thor doesn't exist! You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on YOU!
Nobody is SAYING that God absolutely doesn't exist! There's simply no evidence!
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
@ Bornagain001
I can't prove that there isn't a teapot in orbit around mars, does that mean there is one?
I can be 99.9% certain that there is no god. That is more than good enough for me. It is a matter of probability. The probability that a super natural being, an invisible sky daddy, exists is somewhere in the 0.000000000000001% range.
You can keep taking it on faith, I'm a much bigger fan of proof.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
GOD IS OMNIPOTENT! He doesn't NEED anybody to write things for him.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
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"GOD IS OMNIPOTENT! He doesn't NEED anybody to write things for him."
CORRECT. But God does want to AND WILL use those of us who are willing.
bornagain001 2 years ago
No. It's MEN who wrote it. If God wanted to write a book, he would do it himself, unless he's vindictive. In which case, he is not worthy of worship.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
I beg to differ. God is NOT omnipotent.
I will repeat myself: God is NOT omnipotent.
Can God create a stone he cannot lift? No.
Dont bother with bornagain, he does not care about evidence, he is just more worried about an imaginary afterlife and a deity that mirrors his ego.
Feredir28 2 years ago
Forget it. This guy is beyond reason. He thinks an earthly judge sacrificing his son so a serial killer can go free is justice.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
What is the correlation on how the universe works coinciding the the problems of this world? I'm waiting for a juicy answer.
Please explain, scientifically & 500 words or less.
Just take your time before answering that.
silentonall 2 years ago
The correlation is as follows.
We live on a planet, in a universe. The universe has laws, laws that science tries to figure out and explain. When you ignore those laws, and their consequences, bad things happen.
Ignoring the laws of the universe makes you ignorant.
Our planet is currently slowly dying. Ignorant people have poisoned it. Ignorant people are strip mining it's resources as though they were put here for us. Ignorant people wage war on each other in the name of sky daddies.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
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silentonall 2 years ago
Hold on there Hauss! Did you even bother to do any research about education 50 years ago? Do the research! The United States ranked in the top ten among nations when it came to eduction back then. Don't be a spin zone! Among that, it wasn't based on a government holding on to theocracy, but based on a constitution.
silentonall 2 years ago
Your ignorance is mind blowing and actually makes me mad.
It is not the the fact that teaching evolution was not mandatory that put the US education system in the top ten 50 years ago.
Things have changed in the last 50 years, education in itself has evolved, so has society. Those who have adapted have prospered and have wonderful education systems. Those who refused to adapt got left behind. It's like natural selection except sadly in this case, those who got left behind aren't dying off.
TheBroncoTrip 2 years ago
Was the US government theocratic 50 years ago....when students in public schools excelled far beyond students today? Evolution wasn't mandatory then.
silentonall 2 years ago
The only reason why evolution is taught in public schools and universities to this day is.....
to continue to siphon off money from taxpayers through public funding which is enforced by secular government mandates.
Ohhhh. That's gotta hurt! Ouch!
silentonall 2 years ago
One other thing. It parallels Global Warming. Oops, I mean Climate Change(What next? Quantitative Dynamics?)
Both are a farce people. The end result on both of these failed proposals is to get YOUR money.
That is the true definition of Evolution. That's all it will ever be. Nothing more.
silentonall 2 years ago
Don't ask a scientist about religion and don't ask a religious official about science......why can't we all work together??
brahud 2 years ago
because one group uses logic and reasoning and the other relies on voices in their head
superwowie111 2 years ago
Straw man argument, anyone?
I love science, but don't glorify it, lady.
Argumentum ad hominem. Non sequitur. Dicto simplicter.
Maybe if you are going to talk about how crazy religious people are, you should actually meet one before generalizing them all to death. Please never speak again, especially in a field where you don't deserve to be heard in!
soccermaster25 2 years ago
*Ad hominem.*
She attacks the motives of people with whom she disagrees, but she doesn't really know their motives. I wonder if she is showing us *her* motive: Is she driven by her political agenda?
She also badly misuses the word theocracy. And alliance of Jewish & Christian laymen cannot be called "theocracy" without redefining the term.
Is she is just dumb as rocks? Or is she lying?
ProtoSteward 2 years ago
It makes no sense to accuse someone of making an Ad Hominem in the context of a description, which is what this is.
The motives of the ID/Creationist movement are well known, and accurately described by the professor in this clip. Please refer to Dover v. Kitsmiller and the Discovery Institute's "Wedge Document"
The word theocracy is used accurately, please refer to a dictionary.
"Is she is just dumb as rocks? Or is she lying?"
Since you asked, neither. Which I could say the same for you.
mrbadguysan 2 years ago 3
I know what "theocracy" means. You evidently don't. The term usually refers to rule by clergy. Historically, it has *never* referred to a democratic coalition of laymen from different confessional bodies.
ProtoSteward 2 years ago 2
I'll give you half a point. The political ID movement is politically motivated.
But so what?
Members of the intellectual ID movement does not have any one motive, much less one political motive. In that sense, Forrest doesn't even deal with the intellectual ID movement.
I haven't seen Forrest discuss the actual ideas of ID in any of these videos. Did I miss something?
ProtoSteward 2 years ago 2
STFU
QuixoticM 2 years ago
maybe you should learn what " ad hominem" means. She knows very well what she is talking about. She has even proofed in the Dover Trial that Creationism was changed into ID to get religion into the school curriculum. She has written a book: "Creationism's Trojan Horse" and believe me she KNOWS what she is talking about. Ad Hominem: In contrary to YOU.
TheJuliane1205 2 years ago
to all creationists:
why do we have vestiges(e.g body hair,canines,tailbone)?
why are there rarely cases of people with tails?
why did god gave us functionless and disturbing body parts?
everybody who can't answer these questions is forced to accept evolution
schmock1234 2 years ago 2
why did god gave us functionless and disturbing body parts?
>God is not the cause for all of these abnormality,,but it was given and or it depends on every nature..it is cause b y nature or misused of nature causing abnormality..you know that God only created a beatiful body(eve and adam)..
kawanan777 2 years ago
hmm doesn't sound plausible to me
god created a beautiful body but at the same time created nature which ruined his work?
this doesn't make sense at all and sounds like a bad excuse
p.s adam and eve = incest
incest is forbidden in the bible but god forced adam and eve to commit incest?
this doesn't make sense either
think about it
schmock1234 2 years ago 2
well,the nature i'm talking about is the nature of man to manage and have a good authorities in order to achieved a good way of living in nature resources.he gave us the will or authorities in this world..so why do we have all that?..
kawanan777 2 years ago
Hey lady.. Criationists belive in provable science, they dont believe in evolution which is not science! you're lying to the public to support your lies just because u hold a piece of paper called degree, this does not make u be right! show me the proof evolution is right! SIMPLE!
rocha333 2 years ago