Jct: Youtube for "Gathafi's Green Book" so people can hear thoughts on democracy and fairly sharing the wealth from the hero our thugs Obama, Cameron, Sarkosy are trying to kill who gave his citizens one of the highest standards of living and best human rights records on the planet.
can't wait to see the final speech of the rais...yep, that final speech in which with an m16 sticked up his ass, he will admit he is a douchebag, and he is ready to suck every european to apologize for being such an asshole...
@marktimmer2212 And what if we told you Darfur actually does have oil? LOL! If you're going to use propaganda, at least know what you're talking about.
i applaud the western countries for finally showing leadership on the libyan crisis. As for the russians and chinese, go and suck on a fat sour grapes flavored dick! You pricks couldnt show decisiveness if u tried.
If these rebels fired as much at Qaddafi troops as they do into the air celebrating; this war would have been over 2 weeks ago with the rebels enjoying the beaches of Tripoli while playing futbol with Qaddafi's head.
Gaddafi won't go without a fight and it's gonna be bloody.
No-Fly Zone. Firstly they have to incapable the anti-air defence systems., air fields,etc. Any of does option strikes will cost ordinary Libyans live.
Helicopters will not be effected and will cost more lethal blow upon it target, chopper's gunships, low aerials attack etc.
Timing factors!! Right now Gaddafi is wining.
Gaddafi is military man, he is not stupid.He too, does have his action plan.
All this talking about no fly zone while the Libyans ask us for it including a commander who defected during the revolution with 8,000 men but can not use them while the air force is operating.
A no fly zone would be legitimate for two reasons. One, the libyans have asked for nfz so that they can fight their own fight. Two, gaddafi has and continues to use paid troops against his own people including bombing his own people.
Get this idiot fool out of my country! Why do we let demented people like him into this country? How much do you want to bet that he gets public funding. He is saying to let the Libyan protesters die, well at least until Gaddafi runs out of bullets. Are young Americans actually taught by this guy? No wonder the country is headed down hill.
Its not an act of war on a soveign state if the people we are targetting for the no-fly aren't soveign government. They aren't anything but criminals.
Good point. These people who claim to represent the rebels & are suspiciously already recognized by France, are way more suspect that Gadhafi. I've been watching the images, listening to reporters. The two dont match. It is obvious that the military has been holding back. Air strikes seem to be aimed at rattling nerves more than killing (so far). It is clear that there are grievances BUT there is a large portion of the population that clearly is happy with him.
He final answer sounded a little ridiculous...how does the solidarity in Iran or Azerbaijan with Libya in anyway help the Libyans from being bombarded by Gaddafi's planes in the coming few days?? The Muslim nations can express their moral support for Libyans all they want, but that wont stop Gaddafi from killing his people with every bomb and rocket in his arsenal (no matter how limited it may be).
I'm going to go ahead and say a No-Fly Zone would be legitimate if the majority of Libyans are for it and if all other options broke down (which they pretty much did).
We really need to do some polls of Libyans, these could just be a bunch of protesters who don't represent the will of the Libyan people.
A no-fly-zone serves not to protect civilians but for regime change.It's to even out the playing field to help the rebels succeed in toppling Gaddafi.It has nothing to do with civilians as the pro-war media like BBC and others make it seem.
Rebels are being used as a tool for regime change.So democracy in the Libya context is another word for regime change.Rebels plus noFly-zone are means to that end. The pretexts are civilians and democracy. The motive is regime change.
@martinkun167 The US could care less if civilians are being slaughtered. Civilians have been killed in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Bahrain, Ivory Coast and who knows where else with some accusing Yemen of using nerve gas on protesters.
And it's a bloody civil war in Libya. Plus before the civil war the Russian military said their satellites detected no bombings of Benghazi and Tripoli on Feb 22 of protesters like AlJazeera&BBC reported. This was the original pretext for a no-fly-zone.
@VexZeez Umm, I never asked if the US cared or not; why are you coming back to them? I asked what should be done to help the Libyans overcome Gaddafi, considering that they're so disadvantaged in arms.
So just because some Russian satellite detected no bombings on Feb 22, that means everything is OK? You seem to be taken in by some conspiracy theory; I'm sure the US and EU want to control the situation, but that they're also orchestrating some media hoax out of this rebellion - a stretch, no?
@martinkun167 "I never asked if the" There was a lot of nothing in your substance-less comment: "So what should be done?". And now you tell me that your substance-less comment has nothing to do with the US? LOL ! ! ! You should of set the limits of your question earlier rather than afterward.
"means everything is OK" Strawman. My comment consisted of more than that, e.g. it's a bloody civil war.
"You seem to be taken in by some conspiracy theory" And you seem to be taken by name-calling.
@VexZeez Once again, you've avoided the question that I had originally asked...if you're trying to ridicule me as an amateur debater, speak for yourself as well. Also, unlike you, I never took the extra step of ridiculing you personally by laughing.
Why no-fly zone over the Gaza strip as well? I bet you'd never say that one Mr. Jay eh? You loosing your erstwhile edge Paul, and getting just a bit too conventional together with this professor of yours.
@wotan20 "Why no-fly zone over the Gaza strip as well?"
Probably because this segment is about Libya.
"I bet you'd never say that one Mr. Jay eh? You loosing [sic] your erstwhile edge Paul, and getting just a bit too conventional together with this professor of yours."
So you posed an asinine question then proceed to mock him based on your ignorance of the world?
well maybe if the middle east can get it's head out of it's ass and have fair elections there might be hope. ha im funny, the middle east will always be a fucked up place.
Ok, i don't speak like that but i have to say: Fuck the legality. Bomb everything in Libya looking to fighter planes. Gaddafi is massacring people there from air.
@ashutoshmikku I disagree, Gaddafi must go but Muslims need to overthrow him by themselves. If USA helps it will eventually look for reward in return which would probably be oil fields, which would lead to USA funding of groups in LIbya in the future, which would lead to dictators like ghaddafi. Iraq and afghanistan is an example that the west should allow MUlsims to solve their own problems, after all USA HAS BEEN BACKING THESE DICTATORS FOR DECADES= HYPocITES
@frozenimran So hypocrisy is such a crime that one must never correct oneself? Yes, the US has been backing dictators in the middle east, ergo it must continue to back dictators in the middle east? Some dumb logic.
@B21983 No no no... a Hypocrite is a nation which claims to promote self determination, liberty, freedom and democracy, but when Muslims ask for it in Palestine, Egypt, Yemen, Jordan, etc the west decides to back dictators instead. The same one the British Empire propped up after the colonial era. Its democracy for some tyranny for others.
@frozenimran As I remember, the US did, at least eventually throw its weight behind anti-mubarak protesters in Egypt. In Palestine, it was the US under Bush that pushed for elections despite warnings from both Fatah and Israel. It doesnt recognize the Hamas govt, but that is as much an outcome of Hamas' execution of its political opponents and its rejection of prior agreements b/w Israel and the PLO as much as hypocrisy regarding democratic rights.
@frozenimran That aside, I am not sure what the point is - if it is hypocritical to support democracy for some and not for others, obviously we want the correction to be supporting democracy for all; would you prefer the option of tyranny for all just to avoid the stain of hypocrisy? It would seem to me that democracy for some, even if hypocritical and even if not extended to all is far better than democracy for no one just so that one can avoid being hypocritical.
@B21983 I guess the better word is double standard. It would be best to stand back and allow the people to struggle on their own. Its clear the west has no moral concern in this issue nor do they care werther Ghaddahfi wins. IF they did care they would help the occupied nation of palestine who gets Air raided by bombers and choppers all the time
@frozenimran allowing people to struggle on their own is often what conservatives say as a justification against government intervention to help the poor and working classes. As for Palestine, you are right, the world should do more to oppose Israeli settlements and help prepare Palestinians for statehood. But its not as if Palestine is ignored -- they are a huge recipient of foreign aid -- and at least in the West Bank, there has been mostly calm and strong economic growth.
@B21983 Palestines case is rather dire. Muslims want to run their to fight in defense of the occupation and settlement buildings, but Egypt has laid seiged on Gaza and prevented much aid. MOst people their dont have basics like food and water. People are forced into refugee camps in small places. And we talk about helping Muslims with democracy in the west... People like you are great... But the Gov is seen as liars in the middle east... Especially for backing dictators mubarak, Saudi king etc
@B21983 You will find if civil war was to take place in Saudi, or pakistan, yemen, jordan, etc the people would much rather side with AL Qaida and islamist groups because theve lost faith in America after asking for decades for the removal of these dictators. These dictators are not the fruits of Islam, rather European colonialism in the 1800s, setup by british, french and russia in some cases after they conquered much of the muslim world to suppress them.
That is false. Gaddafi came to power after the revolution in 1961, he always was against the west and like Nasser or Saddam supported pan-arabism and were allies of the Sowjets.
The truth is that Arab opinion will damn the west if it does impose a NFZ and damn us if we don’t. They hate the west and blame it for everything. The arab dictators ofc use Islam as legitimtation, but they also use the opposition against the west as an excuse for their dictatorships. There is no democratic tradition
@ChineseAtheist Nasser was born out of a very odd case. Russia installed a stooge before him fallowed by a british stooge, finally when Nasser came to power who was a secularist he rallied Muslims with a Nationalistic call not Islamic. Definitions are key here. A call for Jihad is a holy call only made by Osama bin Ladin in 1996, a call for defense of Islam and Muslims. Nationalistic calls like those made by ghaddahfi and Nasser fail because they only appeal to a nation state- Egypt, Libya= fail
@ChineseAtheist Saddam as well called for UnIslamic things such as Arabism, and Nationlism, Under Islamic law the Prophet said "he who calls for asibyah(racism, nationalism) as a rallying cry is not one of US(hes a disbeliever)."
This is one of the reasons why afghans were succesful against Russa in the 1980s war, USA promoted Jihad through the Media across the Muslim world which makes a war personal, likewise USA is having a tough time today because of a similar call made by bin ladin 1996
First of all, i wonder why would you use the word "Muslims" and not people. I know about US imperialism but sometimes you have to choose lesser evil in a particular context. Libyan rebels are only demanding no-fly zone and not intervention, so that they not be massacred in vain.
Remember Bosnia? If NATO had not bombarded Yugoslavia, "Muslims" would have been perished.
The Libyan "revolution" is a CIA operation to oust Gaddafi and impose a new dictatorship in the form of "democracy". The National Endowment for Democracy organized the coup with CIA backing. KEITH HARMON SNOW google and facebook, he is a legitimate source for exposing the Pentagon propaganda about the Libya situation.
The Real News is representing the viewpoints of the Western aggression on Libya. The "freedom fighters" are executing black African immigrants and committing serious war crimes.
@youngbuck189 Why? what is the point of overthrowing Gaddafi and taking a risk on a new face when the previous administration was collaborating with the west already?
@CommissarRed He was not their man, and he was not collaborating enough. The time is ripe to cut off the popular uprisings by steering them back into US hegemony. The board is set, the pieces are moving. You must pay attention.
@youngbuck189 What a load of rot. Not collaborating enough? what was selling oil and gas to west and buying arms not good enough? how about allowing Italy to dump its refugees and migrants in Libyan prisons? or collaborating with the EU "role back" policy in regards to refugees and migrants. Maybe its you who needs to pay attention.
@youngbuck189 Your very much so wrong on this, Ghaddahfi became a strong USA ally and friend of Tony Blair since 9/11 and has been a very strong US puppet in the region. I know People from that country, they began to jail all Muslims calling for independence, and all activsts under the guise of war on terror because USA pushed them to do so. USA does not want a free Libya, this would mean to less control over the middle east, look up Michael Schuerer who was head of CIA
In the magical realm of Alex Jones fantasy politics, no evidence is necessary. Reality is not acknowledged, and only a creative imagination is required in order to concoct various Hollywood-esque conspiracies with fabricated intentions and motivations. Then whipping up hysteria and more conspiracies when the claims are challenged.
This obviously serves a purpose, it's not just idiots with tin foil hats. It's meant to take attention away from the real issues and focus it on fantasies.
@Arkinight Stop trying to look smart and research what I said. I gave you a source, go check it. You need to at least make sense in your posts, you can't just put ice sounding sentences together champ.
@youngbuck189 "Stop trying to look smart and research what I said."
Sure, I'll stop trying to do what you say I am doing, and do what you want me to do. Are you actually this brazen?
"I gave you a source, go check it." No, you made a series of empty claims "he is a legitimate source", "The Real News is representing the viewpoints of the Western aggression on Libya", "The Libyan "revolution" is a CIA operation" - and refused to provide any evidence whatsoever.
@Arkinight You are ignorant thats for sure. I am a donor to the Real news, they generally have great coverage. Libya however is a serious misstep. And one that their audience won't question given their usual quality of coverage.
conciousbeingalliance(dot) com or google KEITH HARMON SNOW
Decide for yourself if he is a valid source, decide for yourself if the Real News is telling the truth. But your refusal to even look into the matter supports my assertion of your ignorance, appearing willingly.
@Arkinight Yea I'm sure you did. You read a couple thousand word article he wrote in 5 minutes. See you refuse to question your favorite sources, but when you saw him on RT you went haywire. Your reacted like you were taught to, defend the empire.
@youngbuck189 You never gave any sources to read, you gave me a name. If you would like me to read his articles and citations link them and I'll be glad.
"See you refuse to question your favorite sources, but when you saw him on RT you went haywire"
No, I only saw his segment on RT because that's all I can find and you refuse to link anything.
"Your reacted like you were taught to, defend the empire." Now you're moving into the territory of strawmen?
@youngbuck189 Now that you have firmly established that I'm defending the empire -"Your [sic] reacted like you were taught to, defend the empire" - you can easily win the argument and come out on top. Link me some of his articles and stop with these strawmen, troll.
@youngbuck189 I'm sorry, I realize in your fantasy world of no evidence, no proof, no citations vapid claims can be taken seriously, but the rest of us don't watch Alex Jones or the appendage of the Russian state Russia Today and believe it blindly. There's a burden of proof for claims like; "he is a legitimate source for exposing the Pentagon propaganda about the Libya situation". Why is he a legitimate source? Because he says it's true then it must be? Because he appears on Russia Today?
@Arkinight I gave a exceptional source and website with articles about Libya. You can check it like a grown up or you can continue your pretentious posturing.
@youngbuck189 "I gave a exceptional source and website with articles about Libya. You can check it like a grown up or you can continue your pretentious posturing."
I'm pretentious because I challenged your single source for this new narrative on the conflict? One guy said this without even providing a shred of evidence, and it suddenly disproves everyone else? Are you actually serious?
@youngbuck189 "I gave a exceptional source and website with articles about Libya."
No, you gave me the name, not even the article or the interview, of a guy that provides no evidence for his statements, and a website that doesn't exist. Once again, you may agree or disagree with The Real News or the rest of informed opinion on this issue but don't conflate Alex Jones-esque conspiracies with that opinion. You have no evidence, you have no proof, just ad homs directed at anyone that disagrees.
@youngbuck189 Killing black African immigrants!? I don't know if that is true or not, but it is true that throughout the Arab world, Black Africans are treated as little more than slaves and face terrible racism and abuse -- but our "anti-Apartheid" crowd doesn't seem to bother bringing this up, until, gasp, the US, UK, or Israel get involved.
@youngbuck189 I for one agree that the impetus is most likely external. All nations have a segment of the population that has grievances that can and do get manipulated. (It happens every 4 years here in the U.S.) The days of storming into banana republics and "firing" leaders is over. The CIA or whomever, has been scoring easy wins with their cyber weapons in the region recently.
This has been flagged as spam show
Jct: Youtube for "Gathafi's Green Book" so people can hear thoughts on democracy and fairly sharing the wealth from the hero our thugs Obama, Cameron, Sarkosy are trying to kill who gave his citizens one of the highest standards of living and best human rights records on the planet.
kingofthepaupers 9 months ago
fighting for peace
is like fucking for virginity!
marktimmer2212 11 months ago
can't wait to see the final speech of the rais...yep, that final speech in which with an m16 sticked up his ass, he will admit he is a douchebag, and he is ready to suck every european to apologize for being such an asshole...
daniloronin 11 months ago
people of Darfur, if you would have oil
we would rescue you to
marktimmer2212 11 months ago
@marktimmer2212 And what if we told you Darfur actually does have oil? LOL! If you're going to use propaganda, at least know what you're talking about.
FreedomLover4Ever 11 months ago
you know what i mean!
marktimmer2212 11 months ago
i applaud the western countries for finally showing leadership on the libyan crisis. As for the russians and chinese, go and suck on a fat sour grapes flavored dick! You pricks couldnt show decisiveness if u tried.
PandemicMadness 11 months ago
Cruise missiles don't debate with their targets about legitimacy...
They simply explode.
kejianshi 11 months ago
The bulk's of the world attention right now are on the Tsunami/ E-Quakes befall onto Japan. The problem of radio-active fallout.
As the world focus shift. There's rather no immediate end sight on the Libyan crisis.
Gaddafi's forces and loyalist are regaining back more ground and so does Gaddafi's iron fist-ed clutches. The grip will be tighter.
The bias western media reporting on the event's always portraying and favouring the anti-Gaddafi rather than a balance reports.
It's seem suspect, thou.
mardeboq 11 months ago
If these rebels fired as much at Qaddafi troops as they do into the air celebrating; this war would have been over 2 weeks ago with the rebels enjoying the beaches of Tripoli while playing futbol with Qaddafi's head.
DeusVenator 11 months ago
A desperate man will act desperately.
Gaddafi won't go without a fight and it's gonna be bloody.
No-Fly Zone. Firstly they have to incapable the anti-air defence systems., air fields,etc. Any of does option strikes will cost ordinary Libyans live.
Helicopters will not be effected and will cost more lethal blow upon it target, chopper's gunships, low aerials attack etc.
Timing factors!! Right now Gaddafi is wining.
Gaddafi is military man, he is not stupid.He too, does have his action plan.
mardeboq 11 months ago
All this talking about no fly zone while the Libyans ask us for it including a commander who defected during the revolution with 8,000 men but can not use them while the air force is operating.
A no fly zone would be legitimate for two reasons. One, the libyans have asked for nfz so that they can fight their own fight. Two, gaddafi has and continues to use paid troops against his own people including bombing his own people.
Tzimnewman3 11 months ago
The guy should learn some basics: 80% of Libyan weapons come from Russian exports. (Su-30, Yak-130...)
ChineseAtheist 11 months ago
I cannot understand anyone who is against austerity being for this.
If you don't have any money to pay for basic cuts you certainly don't have any to send over for a country you have nothing to do with.
sirellyn 11 months ago
Get this idiot fool out of my country! Why do we let demented people like him into this country? How much do you want to bet that he gets public funding. He is saying to let the Libyan protesters die, well at least until Gaddafi runs out of bullets. Are young Americans actually taught by this guy? No wonder the country is headed down hill.
jbranstetter04 11 months ago
They will run out of bullets..........
Seriously this man should never be on TRN again..
Sezlar 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
STOP USA-NATO "humanitarian" TERRORISM !
They are want to get oil only !!
STOP NATO TERRORIST KILLING CIVILIANS !
TeslaGenius2 11 months ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
STOP USA-NATO "humanitarian" TERRORISM !
They are want to get oil only
TeslaGenius2 11 months ago
this guy is retarded with his hate for america..his answer is they will run out of bullets wow
anilraj420 11 months ago
seems like libya wants there cake n eat it to
anilraj420 11 months ago
this guy is dumb did the international community put a no fly zone in iraq against america i would like to see who is can do that lol
anilraj420 11 months ago
I am so sick of this bullshit,
Send in the heavy artillery,send in Charlie Sheen--WINNER!!!
He will reign Tiger blood amongst the people !
zoticus1 11 months ago
gaddaffi akbar
kickthecat65 11 months ago
Its not an act of war on a soveign state if the people we are targetting for the no-fly aren't soveign government. They aren't anything but criminals.
screwopenborders 11 months ago
STOP USA-NATO "humanitarian" TERRORISM !
They are want to get oil only
TeslaGenius2 11 months ago
@TeslaGenius2 so what not going to take it for free u get money use it to fix your country
anilraj420 11 months ago
Good point with the security council...it's like Nixon Frost "but when the president does it it's not illeagal" =D
Prometheukles 11 months ago
Good point. These people who claim to represent the rebels & are suspiciously already recognized by France, are way more suspect that Gadhafi. I've been watching the images, listening to reporters. The two dont match. It is obvious that the military has been holding back. Air strikes seem to be aimed at rattling nerves more than killing (so far). It is clear that there are grievances BUT there is a large portion of the population that clearly is happy with him.
6of6 11 months ago 2
War is hell.
blackiron60 11 months ago
TOO LATE NOW GADDAFI FORCES ON THE GROUND HAVE REGROUPED AND ARE ON THE OFFENSIVE HE DOESNT NEED THE JETS ANYMORE
ZionismISNEWNazism 11 months ago
Gaddafi was armed by Russia not the US. This speaker is just rambling.
MsColdCanada 11 months ago
@MsColdCanada You are both right. its a matter of when.
maokly1 11 months ago
He final answer sounded a little ridiculous...how does the solidarity in Iran or Azerbaijan with Libya in anyway help the Libyans from being bombarded by Gaddafi's planes in the coming few days?? The Muslim nations can express their moral support for Libyans all they want, but that wont stop Gaddafi from killing his people with every bomb and rocket in his arsenal (no matter how limited it may be).
martinkun167 11 months ago
I'm going to go ahead and say a No-Fly Zone would be legitimate if the majority of Libyans are for it and if all other options broke down (which they pretty much did).
We really need to do some polls of Libyans, these could just be a bunch of protesters who don't represent the will of the Libyan people.
AndroidPolitician 11 months ago
I don't care what part of the world you're from but we need to help the people Libya!
intheMixup 11 months ago
01:28 the Facial expression is epic
ismoketoomuchweed 11 months ago
In the world of Dabashi everything is a dichotomy.
anthonzi 11 months ago
Pilot's committees could take responsibility voluntarily. France can give pilots absence, lend planes & observers, info.
France accepts legitimacy of rebels. Rebels can invite crews to form international brigades.
Put intelligence/debate on web, let crews decide.
Trust pilots to make decisions they actually like & agree with.. for once.
Do it with zero secrecy & get genuine respect re: targets.
If crews are confident they can stop illegal acts there's little problem. if not they can fly home.
marsCubed 11 months ago
Geez people, take your tin foil hats off!
People are so fucked up with these NWO/Zionist conspiracy theory. Paul Jay isn't in on some conspiracy! It's stunning how detached people are...
If you don't like the story, fine! But there is no Zionist conspiracy!
AudioForAnarchists 11 months ago
A no-fly-zone serves not to protect civilians but for regime change.It's to even out the playing field to help the rebels succeed in toppling Gaddafi.It has nothing to do with civilians as the pro-war media like BBC and others make it seem.
Rebels are being used as a tool for regime change.So democracy in the Libya context is another word for regime change.Rebels plus noFly-zone are means to that end. The pretexts are civilians and democracy. The motive is regime change.
"War is a lie" Swanson
VexZeez 11 months ago 2
@VexZeez So what should be done? Let's just watch Gaddafi continue slaughtering his people, right?
martinkun167 11 months ago
@martinkun167 The US could care less if civilians are being slaughtered. Civilians have been killed in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Bahrain, Ivory Coast and who knows where else with some accusing Yemen of using nerve gas on protesters.
And it's a bloody civil war in Libya. Plus before the civil war the Russian military said their satellites detected no bombings of Benghazi and Tripoli on Feb 22 of protesters like AlJazeera&BBC reported. This was the original pretext for a no-fly-zone.
VexZeez 11 months ago
@VexZeez Umm, I never asked if the US cared or not; why are you coming back to them? I asked what should be done to help the Libyans overcome Gaddafi, considering that they're so disadvantaged in arms.
So just because some Russian satellite detected no bombings on Feb 22, that means everything is OK? You seem to be taken in by some conspiracy theory; I'm sure the US and EU want to control the situation, but that they're also orchestrating some media hoax out of this rebellion - a stretch, no?
martinkun167 11 months ago
@martinkun167 "I never asked if the" There was a lot of nothing in your substance-less comment: "So what should be done?". And now you tell me that your substance-less comment has nothing to do with the US? LOL ! ! ! You should of set the limits of your question earlier rather than afterward.
"means everything is OK" Strawman. My comment consisted of more than that, e.g. it's a bloody civil war.
"You seem to be taken in by some conspiracy theory" And you seem to be taken by name-calling.
VexZeez 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@VexZeez "a stretch, no?"
You are ignorant of the media's role in selling wars to say that. You don't need to go to far back in history to know.
VexZeez 11 months ago
@VexZeez Once again, you've avoided the question that I had originally asked...if you're trying to ridicule me as an amateur debater, speak for yourself as well. Also, unlike you, I never took the extra step of ridiculing you personally by laughing.
martinkun167 11 months ago
@martinkun167 Here's the answer: let them fight their own civil war.
"amateur debater," Wrong. It had to with your question.
"ridiculing you" Lie, e.g. conspiracy theory.
VexZeez 11 months ago
the real news= zionist puppet, just like al jazeera!
bagshitass 11 months ago
Why no-fly zone over the Gaza strip as well? I bet you'd never say that one Mr. Jay eh? You loosing your erstwhile edge Paul, and getting just a bit too conventional together with this professor of yours.
wotan20 11 months ago
@wotan20 "Why no-fly zone over the Gaza strip as well?"
Probably because this segment is about Libya.
"I bet you'd never say that one Mr. Jay eh? You loosing [sic] your erstwhile edge Paul, and getting just a bit too conventional together with this professor of yours."
So you posed an asinine question then proceed to mock him based on your ignorance of the world?
Arkinight 11 months ago
well maybe if the middle east can get it's head out of it's ass and have fair elections there might be hope. ha im funny, the middle east will always be a fucked up place.
defect530 11 months ago
Ok, i don't speak like that but i have to say: Fuck the legality. Bomb everything in Libya looking to fighter planes. Gaddafi is massacring people there from air.
ashutoshmikku 11 months ago
@ashutoshmikku I disagree, Gaddafi must go but Muslims need to overthrow him by themselves. If USA helps it will eventually look for reward in return which would probably be oil fields, which would lead to USA funding of groups in LIbya in the future, which would lead to dictators like ghaddafi. Iraq and afghanistan is an example that the west should allow MUlsims to solve their own problems, after all USA HAS BEEN BACKING THESE DICTATORS FOR DECADES= HYPocITES
frozenimran 11 months ago
@frozenimran So hypocrisy is such a crime that one must never correct oneself? Yes, the US has been backing dictators in the middle east, ergo it must continue to back dictators in the middle east? Some dumb logic.
B21983 11 months ago
@B21983 No no no... a Hypocrite is a nation which claims to promote self determination, liberty, freedom and democracy, but when Muslims ask for it in Palestine, Egypt, Yemen, Jordan, etc the west decides to back dictators instead. The same one the British Empire propped up after the colonial era. Its democracy for some tyranny for others.
frozenimran 11 months ago
@frozenimran As I remember, the US did, at least eventually throw its weight behind anti-mubarak protesters in Egypt. In Palestine, it was the US under Bush that pushed for elections despite warnings from both Fatah and Israel. It doesnt recognize the Hamas govt, but that is as much an outcome of Hamas' execution of its political opponents and its rejection of prior agreements b/w Israel and the PLO as much as hypocrisy regarding democratic rights.
B21983 11 months ago
@frozenimran That aside, I am not sure what the point is - if it is hypocritical to support democracy for some and not for others, obviously we want the correction to be supporting democracy for all; would you prefer the option of tyranny for all just to avoid the stain of hypocrisy? It would seem to me that democracy for some, even if hypocritical and even if not extended to all is far better than democracy for no one just so that one can avoid being hypocritical.
B21983 11 months ago
@B21983 I guess the better word is double standard. It would be best to stand back and allow the people to struggle on their own. Its clear the west has no moral concern in this issue nor do they care werther Ghaddahfi wins. IF they did care they would help the occupied nation of palestine who gets Air raided by bombers and choppers all the time
frozenimran 11 months ago
@frozenimran allowing people to struggle on their own is often what conservatives say as a justification against government intervention to help the poor and working classes. As for Palestine, you are right, the world should do more to oppose Israeli settlements and help prepare Palestinians for statehood. But its not as if Palestine is ignored -- they are a huge recipient of foreign aid -- and at least in the West Bank, there has been mostly calm and strong economic growth.
B21983 11 months ago
@B21983 Palestines case is rather dire. Muslims want to run their to fight in defense of the occupation and settlement buildings, but Egypt has laid seiged on Gaza and prevented much aid. MOst people their dont have basics like food and water. People are forced into refugee camps in small places. And we talk about helping Muslims with democracy in the west... People like you are great... But the Gov is seen as liars in the middle east... Especially for backing dictators mubarak, Saudi king etc
frozenimran 11 months ago
@B21983 You will find if civil war was to take place in Saudi, or pakistan, yemen, jordan, etc the people would much rather side with AL Qaida and islamist groups because theve lost faith in America after asking for decades for the removal of these dictators. These dictators are not the fruits of Islam, rather European colonialism in the 1800s, setup by british, french and russia in some cases after they conquered much of the muslim world to suppress them.
frozenimran 11 months ago
That is false. Gaddafi came to power after the revolution in 1961, he always was against the west and like Nasser or Saddam supported pan-arabism and were allies of the Sowjets.
The truth is that Arab opinion will damn the west if it does impose a NFZ and damn us if we don’t. They hate the west and blame it for everything. The arab dictators ofc use Islam as legitimtation, but they also use the opposition against the west as an excuse for their dictatorships. There is no democratic tradition
ChineseAtheist 11 months ago
@ChineseAtheist Nasser was born out of a very odd case. Russia installed a stooge before him fallowed by a british stooge, finally when Nasser came to power who was a secularist he rallied Muslims with a Nationalistic call not Islamic. Definitions are key here. A call for Jihad is a holy call only made by Osama bin Ladin in 1996, a call for defense of Islam and Muslims. Nationalistic calls like those made by ghaddahfi and Nasser fail because they only appeal to a nation state- Egypt, Libya= fail
frozenimran 11 months ago
@ChineseAtheist Saddam as well called for UnIslamic things such as Arabism, and Nationlism, Under Islamic law the Prophet said "he who calls for asibyah(racism, nationalism) as a rallying cry is not one of US(hes a disbeliever)."
This is one of the reasons why afghans were succesful against Russa in the 1980s war, USA promoted Jihad through the Media across the Muslim world which makes a war personal, likewise USA is having a tough time today because of a similar call made by bin ladin 1996
frozenimran 11 months ago
@frozenimran
First of all, i wonder why would you use the word "Muslims" and not people. I know about US imperialism but sometimes you have to choose lesser evil in a particular context. Libyan rebels are only demanding no-fly zone and not intervention, so that they not be massacred in vain.
Remember Bosnia? If NATO had not bombarded Yugoslavia, "Muslims" would have been perished.
ashutoshmikku 11 months ago
The Libyan "revolution" is a CIA operation to oust Gaddafi and impose a new dictatorship in the form of "democracy". The National Endowment for Democracy organized the coup with CIA backing. KEITH HARMON SNOW google and facebook, he is a legitimate source for exposing the Pentagon propaganda about the Libya situation.
The Real News is representing the viewpoints of the Western aggression on Libya. The "freedom fighters" are executing black African immigrants and committing serious war crimes.
youngbuck189 11 months ago 2
@youngbuck189 Why? what is the point of overthrowing Gaddafi and taking a risk on a new face when the previous administration was collaborating with the west already?
CommissarRed 11 months ago
@CommissarRed He was not their man, and he was not collaborating enough. The time is ripe to cut off the popular uprisings by steering them back into US hegemony. The board is set, the pieces are moving. You must pay attention.
youngbuck189 11 months ago 2
@youngbuck189 What a load of rot. Not collaborating enough? what was selling oil and gas to west and buying arms not good enough? how about allowing Italy to dump its refugees and migrants in Libyan prisons? or collaborating with the EU "role back" policy in regards to refugees and migrants. Maybe its you who needs to pay attention.
CommissarRed 11 months ago
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@youngbuck189
"The Libyan "revolution" is a CIA operation to oust Gaddafi and impose a new dictatorship in the form of "democracy"."
No evidence required, this is a self-evident truth.
"The National Endowment for Democracy organized the coup with CIA backing."
Once again, no evidence required.
"KEITH HARMON SNOW google and facebook, he is a legitimate source for exposing the Pentagon propaganda about the Libya situation."
Why is he the legitimate source? Nobody else, just him?
Arkinight 11 months ago
@youngbuck189
"The Real News is representing the viewpoints of the Western aggression on Libya."
What metric is this idiotic claim based on? You do realize the burden of proof is on you for these outrageous claims?
Arkinight 11 months ago
@Arkinight I gave a source, you can check it like a grown up or you can continue your posturing.
youngbuck189 11 months ago
@youngbuck189 Your very much so wrong on this, Ghaddahfi became a strong USA ally and friend of Tony Blair since 9/11 and has been a very strong US puppet in the region. I know People from that country, they began to jail all Muslims calling for independence, and all activsts under the guise of war on terror because USA pushed them to do so. USA does not want a free Libya, this would mean to less control over the middle east, look up Michael Schuerer who was head of CIA
frozenimran 11 months ago
In the magical realm of Alex Jones fantasy politics, no evidence is necessary. Reality is not acknowledged, and only a creative imagination is required in order to concoct various Hollywood-esque conspiracies with fabricated intentions and motivations. Then whipping up hysteria and more conspiracies when the claims are challenged.
This obviously serves a purpose, it's not just idiots with tin foil hats. It's meant to take attention away from the real issues and focus it on fantasies.
Arkinight 11 months ago
@Arkinight Stop trying to look smart and research what I said. I gave you a source, go check it. You need to at least make sense in your posts, you can't just put ice sounding sentences together champ.
youngbuck189 11 months ago
@youngbuck189 "Stop trying to look smart and research what I said."
Sure, I'll stop trying to do what you say I am doing, and do what you want me to do. Are you actually this brazen?
"I gave you a source, go check it." No, you made a series of empty claims "he is a legitimate source", "The Real News is representing the viewpoints of the Western aggression on Libya", "The Libyan "revolution" is a CIA operation" - and refused to provide any evidence whatsoever.
Arkinight 11 months ago
@Arkinight You are ignorant thats for sure. I am a donor to the Real news, they generally have great coverage. Libya however is a serious misstep. And one that their audience won't question given their usual quality of coverage.
conciousbeingalliance(dot) com or google KEITH HARMON SNOW
Decide for yourself if he is a valid source, decide for yourself if the Real News is telling the truth. But your refusal to even look into the matter supports my assertion of your ignorance, appearing willingly.
youngbuck189 11 months ago
@youngbuck189 I don't care what you're a donor to, this has nothing to do with the issue.
No, you don't have a source, you have a name in uppercase letters and ad homs.
"Decide for yourself " You already decided for everyone: "he is a legitimate source for exposing...".
Yeah, I already saw his diatribe, he did what you did: he made a claim and provided no evidence.
Arkinight 11 months ago
@Arkinight Yea I'm sure you did. You read a couple thousand word article he wrote in 5 minutes. See you refuse to question your favorite sources, but when you saw him on RT you went haywire. Your reacted like you were taught to, defend the empire.
youngbuck189 11 months ago
@youngbuck189 You never gave any sources to read, you gave me a name. If you would like me to read his articles and citations link them and I'll be glad.
"See you refuse to question your favorite sources, but when you saw him on RT you went haywire"
No, I only saw his segment on RT because that's all I can find and you refuse to link anything.
"Your reacted like you were taught to, defend the empire." Now you're moving into the territory of strawmen?
Arkinight 11 months ago
@youngbuck189 Now that you have firmly established that I'm defending the empire -"Your [sic] reacted like you were taught to, defend the empire" - you can easily win the argument and come out on top. Link me some of his articles and stop with these strawmen, troll.
Arkinight 11 months ago
@Arkinight don't bother trying to talk sense to this youngfuck nitwit.
DforDIckhead2100 11 months ago
@youngbuck189 I'm sorry, I realize in your fantasy world of no evidence, no proof, no citations vapid claims can be taken seriously, but the rest of us don't watch Alex Jones or the appendage of the Russian state Russia Today and believe it blindly. There's a burden of proof for claims like; "he is a legitimate source for exposing the Pentagon propaganda about the Libya situation". Why is he a legitimate source? Because he says it's true then it must be? Because he appears on Russia Today?
Arkinight 11 months ago
@youngbuck189 "You need to at least make sense in your posts, you can't just put ice [sic] sounding sentences together champ."
Yeah that's cute, ad homs really serve a useful purpose.
Arkinight 11 months ago
@Arkinight I gave a exceptional source and website with articles about Libya. You can check it like a grown up or you can continue your pretentious posturing.
youngbuck189 11 months ago
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@youngbuck189 "I gave a exceptional source and website with articles about Libya. You can check it like a grown up or you can continue your pretentious posturing."
I'm pretentious because I challenged your single source for this new narrative on the conflict? One guy said this without even providing a shred of evidence, and it suddenly disproves everyone else? Are you actually serious?
Arkinight 11 months ago
@youngbuck189 "I gave a exceptional source and website with articles about Libya."
No, you gave me the name, not even the article or the interview, of a guy that provides no evidence for his statements, and a website that doesn't exist. Once again, you may agree or disagree with The Real News or the rest of informed opinion on this issue but don't conflate Alex Jones-esque conspiracies with that opinion. You have no evidence, you have no proof, just ad homs directed at anyone that disagrees.
Arkinight 11 months ago
@youngbuck189 Killing black African immigrants!? I don't know if that is true or not, but it is true that throughout the Arab world, Black Africans are treated as little more than slaves and face terrible racism and abuse -- but our "anti-Apartheid" crowd doesn't seem to bother bringing this up, until, gasp, the US, UK, or Israel get involved.
B21983 11 months ago
@youngbuck189 I for one agree that the impetus is most likely external. All nations have a segment of the population that has grievances that can and do get manipulated. (It happens every 4 years here in the U.S.) The days of storming into banana republics and "firing" leaders is over. The CIA or whomever, has been scoring easy wins with their cyber weapons in the region recently.
6of6 11 months ago
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youngbuck189 11 months ago