I still can't believe that the guy playing the Narn in G'Kar's vision is the same actor as played Bishop Brennan in 'Father Ted'. That guy is awesome.
One of my fav scenes too. And perhaps ther's a powerful dark force pulling the strings from the shadows in the israel-palastine conflict too. Just like the Shadows and the centauries.
There is also a parallelism with the three predominate faiths of the region. The hate is palpable where military segregation is necessary. You could be bombed, have your house burned down or even be killed. It's almost a fantasy wish that all would have mass amnesia and get to start over without the past memories of atrocities against each party of another. I wish all people a life full of progressive and humane resources such as food, education and shelter but not any teachings that make hate.
How is this even closely related to Israel and palestine?
The Jews came back to their homeland after 2000 years of being dispersed. They came by ships and bought back their land. Jordan then tried to annihilate them (as usual) and failed (as usual).
Tell the suicide bombers and terrorists to stop sending rockets every day, and there will automatically be peace.
@pingviller And tell the Jews to stop building settlements on Palestinian land. And tell them to stop blockading the Gaza Strip that is causing widespread poverty in the region. Tell them to stop evicting Palestinians from their homes. Oh and tell them to stop opposing the recognition of a Palestinian state.
What? You didn't realize that the Palestinians have some legitimate grievances against the Israelis? You didn't research the complexities of the conflict?
I don't mean to get techinical here, but the Palestinians don't reckongize Isreal, so how can they have grievances with something they don't reckongize ?
Fact, there current gourverment has vowed to drive the jews back into the sea.
Fact that hostilities orginaly started because of them.
Fact after 2 very bloody conflicts which they started and got beaten in they still had too resort to terrorisme.
What you only researched the last 10 years ? Typical.
@WarSmurfs When a group exists yet is not recognized by another... what does that say about the latter? I am not pro-isreal or pro-palestine since I belong to neither. However, I am compassionate of the suffering found in that area of the middle east. It appears all sides are raised by their elders to believe that hatred of the "enemy" is justice yet no one appears to see the true suffering of their civilization. Their potential is essentially nothing since they are consumed in this sad cycle.
@pingviller Of course the Canaanites were there before the Jews but they were exterminated... by Jews. I'm an anti-semite for pointing this out and therefore automatically in the wrong.
The most amazing thing is the transformation they both undergo. G'Kar starts as a vengeful and arrogant politician, but becomes very wise and enlightened by the end of the series.
Londo begins as a cheerful funny character, passes through a period of anger and extreme arrogance, and manages to gain some wisdom eventually, although at a heavy price.
It seems strangely appropriate that they died together.
Angrydead, all he had to do is impersonate his god to get this done, which isn't a good thing to do, but i think sometimes, the ends do justify the means, like this situation.
@vclxrr There's so much i want to say, but cannot. All that i can get across is: We are all Kosh.
all that could really be added, would be to understand that Kosh would say that he is who he has always been,and so.....we are who we have always been..(nod to Trek fans here) "A dangerous, savage,child race."....so long as we can manage to avoid killing ourselves off,we could become what Kosh was speaking to. and this is of course what this little talk is all about anyway right?
The trouble with Star Trek is that it's never had the poetry we see here in B5. Episodic TV (stories that run only one stand-alone episode at a time) cannot reach the heights and the depths of the human soul like this. And this wasn't the only time this happened. B5 did this all the time. B5 is to Star Trek what Shakespeare is the "Two and a Half Men"
@TheJboy88 Maybe it would help to "walk a mile in his shoes" so to speak. What whould you do if you had such a profound vision? Think about it for a while... Kosh appears as an angel to G'Kar, drops mad knowledge on him, and poof! he's gone. What would you do? My opinion on this would be that running off and telling everyone he sees would make him look like the guy with the " Repent the end is near" sign....lol just a thought.
"What hope is there left for Narn if all of Creation falls around us? No hope, no dream, no future, no life. Unless we turn from the cycle of hatred towards something greater." Reminds me of a quote of captain Sinclair "You become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy" which certainly holds true for the Narns. If you compromise anything to tear down the enemy you will corrupt yourself beyond recognition. The only hope is to turn away hatred, and treat it as the poison it is.
what a great series!... it's like some sort of "Bible" (or other text people consider important) or mythological stories full of important symbolic meaning about humanity and Reality. I've watched my DVD sets through maybe 8 times and I've just started watching them again - maybe I'll learn something new or have some new reflections on the complexity within this grand series! It's much more than just entertainment ... it's modern-day Mythology full of important lessons and hidden meanings!
It seems that G'Kar holds a piece of Kosh within him. "I have always been here" he said. Kosh didnt just come to save Londos life, he came to save G'Kar's very soul from the darkness of hate. G'kar once quoted Shiquone, the narn relegious figure. "There is a greater darkness then the one we face. It is the Darkness of the soul that has lost its way." Seems it fits perfectly with what G'Kar was going threw at that moment.
Exactly. Ulkesh wanted only one thing from the younger races: obedience. Nothing more. "It is wise for the arrow to remember it does not choose the target". Kosh, in his own way, cared.
@prncmodred AH HA!!! a true flicker a wisdom!! :)do you also remember when Sheridan compared them to parents arguing in front of their chlidren. manipulating them, trying to get them to pick sides. not for the benefit of the children but for themselves. This is how Kosh was different. I believe this is also a deeper secondary message of this epiphany. "when we involve ourselves in the lives of others. Are we doing so for their benefit? or for our own? for if it is the latter than we are corrupt
@MangoBastard "G'kar reminds me of an elegant sword. beaten with hammer, tempered by fire to be doused by wisdom. powerful in application and noble in bearing."
I've seen excellent descriptions of G'Kar before, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do so with so few words, so poetically stated. That is a magnificent turn of phrase!
I like to think of a quote of Commander Sinclair from season 1 of the show "When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy" that is certainly true of the Narn/Centauri situation and even the Shadow/Vorlon war. The Narn's had no desire beyong destroying the Centauri and became just as bad as the Centauri. It means that if you focus on your hate of something to the exclusion of all else you lose in the end, because you will do anything, sacrifice anything to tear that thing down
i always felt that they didnt need to physically put kosh there at the end -- if we couldnt figure out it was him by the fact that he took the appearance of g'kar's father, something he's known to do, the "angel" at the end makes it unmistakable. actually showing kosh was hitting us over the head with it
@gunsbulletsheroin I actually like it. In GKar's dream, we see Kosh as he truly is... a kind, gentle, wise old man. Then outside, we see the hard shell that he showed the world.
@starsiegeplayer I disagree, I don't see the dream-Kosh as his true self, rather a form he's coldly taking to manipulate G'Kar -- it's not just any old man, but his father and he's exploiting G'kar's feelings toward him. Now Kosh's manipulation may be justifiable and it certainly made G'kar into a better man. But Kosh had his own goals in mind
@gunsbulletsheroin The "angel" was the true tip off to G'Kar that it wasn't really his father, and he knew it. Kosh also appeared to Sheridan as his father (and wasn't pretending to be his father either). This is, I think, because Kosh thought of people like G'Kar and Sheridan like his own children.
@starsiegeplayer i don't agree. sheridan (and delenn i guess) was the only one who knew that the "angel" everyone saw was kosh. kosh and sheridan had a much closer relationship than kosh and g'kar (sheridan carried a piece of kosh and was often sent visions by him) and the two were much closer to being on equal footing (sheridan's about the only member of a younger race that could convince him to sacrifice himself). g'kar saw the "angel" as further proof of the divine nature of his revelation
@gunsbulletsheroin Yes, there's no question as to what G'Kar saw the "angel" as. What I am saying: G'kar didn't think his father was an angel at the end. Kosh chose the appearance of a parent because that's how Kosh sees himself.
@gunsbulletsheroin Here, I disagree with you, and agree with starsiegeplayer, Kosh sees the younger races as children. He is one of the oldest of the Vorlons, and thus one of the wisest. Compare to his replacement, who was cold, blunt, and forceful. When that happened, I was initially shocked, I didn't like the change to the Vorlons. However, I realized that the Vorlons didn't change, Kosh was simply more perceptive when it came to the younger races than the rest.
@gunsbulletsheroin manipulate g'kar? yes. but i don't think he did so in a "cold" way to reach his own goals. kosh and the vorlons were of the opinion that the narn (and centauri) were a lost people. it may have been too late to save them as a race, but it's never too late to save their souls. i think kosh sent this vision to manipulate g'kar and the narn by extension into becoming an asset to the "army of light" but also to help g'kar and the narn become something nobler than they were.
@Swordsman808 I think it was more than just that. Before this Kosh's advice was to let them die. I like to think this was also Kosh realising that there was something worth saving. Kosh was never as brutal as Ulkesh was, but I think for most of the series he didn't realise that. He was always mroe sympathetic to the younger races, but it wasn't until near the end that he saw how much things needed to change and finally started taking action(ultimately prompted by Sheridan)
After 4 years we were finally allowed to learn what the Vorlon had been trying to tell us all of that time. But, just as J'Kar had to be in a certain place to begin to understand that, so did the audience... truely great writing.
@LordGodStronghold Not all the vorlons were benevolent, ...just some, including Kosh! When Sheridan asks Kosh to intervene in the shadow war, he said that there are just few of them! At first I thought that he was talking about his race, but actually he was talking about the few of the Vorlon that remembered the true purpose of their race,...that of teachers and not of ideologists! That's the reason why Kosh (or what remained of him in Sheridan) kills the crazed vorlon that replaced him!
Has anyone ever seen the parallelism of this conflict between the Centauri vs Narn and Israelis and Palestinians? The cycle of death between both sides. Listen to the words of the "angel" and substitute. I wish for peace in the Middle East so all the people can live the happiest lives possible without fear of suicide bombers or attacks.
@Bander1 no! Babylon 5 is more about Mollari's path to redemption! Gkar was never the vilain, he even helped Sinclair's Girlfriend with a wonderful speech in the first season
@Bander1 I think that G'Kar was just like Boromir. The only thing he always wanted was for his people to be safe. And that is what he tries to do, time and again.
@angrydead (regarding Kosh) Indeed, i agree. And, i think we all have chances to be like that, each in our own way: Each day, the things we do and say to those we encounter may have a more profound impact than we will ever know.
There's so much i want to say, but cannot. All that i can get across is: We are all Kosh.
Despite how often Kosh looked and behaved apathetically towards others I think this clip and the later clip where he's dying, show that he does care for them. He cares for Sheridan, G'Kar, and the rest in his own way and giving nudges in the right direction when they're ready to step forward.
The Shallow vs. Vorlons? Epoch movie theme? Matrix theme? Final Fantasty theme?
Final Conflict theme? Ori theme in Star Gate? Notice how many shows in sciefi went religious? What is the secret source of these religious themes?
All from a secret website put up in 1988. Believe it not, the predicted Little Book, which would finally explain the mystery of God. I read it, guess what? IT DOES!
The Shallow vs. Vorlons? Epoch movie theme? Matrix theme? Final Fantasty theme?
Final Conflict theme? Ori theme in Star Gate? Notice how many shows in sciefi went religious? What is the secret source of these religious themes?
All from a secret website put up in 1988. Believe it not, the predicted Little Book, which would finally explain the mystery of God. I read it, guess what? IT DOES!
As impossible as it sounds, it does! Everything
Finally put in a book( God vs. Satan Untold Story)
@LambChowder1 its all basic war policy ,the duality of an enemy and a good guy ,but who is who?are both not the enemy of themselves if they both choose paths of hate,,..yep its a tricky 1
I think Kosh was the only one of the Vorlons that realized they and the Shadows were caught in the same cycle as the Narns and the Centauri. He genuinely wanted to help the younger races and not simply impose his people's dogma on them. That's why he really brought the inquisitor to test Delenn, taught Sheridan and intervened in this instance in order to show them a different way than Order vs. Chaos.
there comes a time in our life's when the peney drops this is just one of them when g'kar gets a second chance and see's were it can all end for the narns so standding at a cross roads it is upto you were you can turn. the vorlon was the sign, left to the darkness right to a new life and if you can be the bigger man, and go foward you will have a long life.but life is short and what gose a round comes around like in the film
This is probably the best scene I have ever seen on TV. There are some that may have come close, but the intensity of the dialogue, all the drama leading up to this point and the paradoxical relationship between Londo and G'Kar is the best thing this or any other TV show I've watched have to offer.
And to think I wasted my time watching DS9 when I should've been watching the real deal. I can deffinately see where them TREK producers ripped off their ideas from.
@ShadowSonic2 I came off a little too harsh. I wasn't exactly taken to B5 when I first watched dips-and-dabs of it back as a kid. I had something of a borderline obsession with TREK; that was till after it started to turn me off. TNG movies were lousy and VOY got on my nerves. I began to despise Contemporary TREK.
@Bla31n I didn't have the station B5 was on until it was on TNT, but I enjoyed it. I didn't watch much Trek after TNG, some DS9 and some VOY. I began doing research a few years ago and found out most of what was bad about VOY and ENT was really due to extreme Executive Meddling and not the Producers/Writers. So I enjoy it all.
@ShadowSonic2 (In regard to producers messing with StarTrek). I'd tend to agree somewhat. I think the biggest problem that shows like that face is not that the events portrayed wouldn't necessarily be something that might happen in the Trek universe. Rather, i think it's about a combination of limited screen time + lack of vision. A show needs to capture our imagination quickly, and have a visionary behind it. That's why B5, ST:TOS, and ST:TNG did so well. Otherwise, it becomes more about money.
@vclxrr DS9 did have Mike Piller (for the first 2 seasons) and Ira Behr (for the rest, brought in by Piller) guiding it. VOY suffered from not having dedicated showrunners, or showrunners allowed to do what they wanted (Braga had great ideas, but was constantly overruled). ENT HAD a good showrunner (Manny Coto) but not soon enough.
@ShadowSonic2 I also see that formula come together well in BtVS (Buffy) (which had Joss Whedon as its visionary, creator, writer, and executive producer) and new Doctor Who (which has had, over the course of its run so far, two very good primary writers whose vision for the show has created story arcs with excellent internal consistency).
@PeoplesGeneral - it's more relevant to the Arabs. The Israelis aren't raising their kids to hate or trying to change history to support their cause of total annexation of the entire middle east with Jews under their rule.
@PeoplesGeneral - yes I'm seeing both sides. I don't really love either but as I mentioned the Israelis are not raising their kids with guns in hand, glorifiying suicide bombings and brainwashed to wipe out their enemies from existence.
Actually believing Jews are quite few in number. Most Israelis are secular and want to survive in a sea of hostility...they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Tell me something about Israel, I don't already know... I dated an Israeli girl from Haifa back in college. She's quite "secular", like most western Christians and even some Muslims.
Palestinians/Arabs aren't teaching their kids to hate, the groups known as Hezbollah, and Hamas, however do.
Meanwhile groups from Israel known as people with a Zionist mentality, and some people within the IDF and Mossad are going around killing Palestinians and bulldozing their homes.
@PeoplesGeneral - I suggest you look into Hamas, who control most of the schools and media and whose official mandate is to wipe Israel out of existence. Israel would be insance NOT to suggest killing them is a bad idea.
Let's not forget half of northern Israel spends their nights sleeping in shelters because of random rocket attacks which have been going on for years.
There is a huge amount of Anti-Jewishness in the Arab world...I know because I live there...it's shocking.
@Optimusnorm - I think it's because violence begets violence. Unfortunately, because of the lavish US support, the Israeli people are now hated across the region, because the support gives comfort to the most violent and hardline elements of Israeli society. Why back down or propose some reasonable compromise on an issue when you can simply afford to be as brutal as one might ever hope to be in the suppression of the slightest offense. In that way , the Israeli people could not be more poorly
@Optimusnorm supported. Such accommodation of radicalization and hard-line attitudes and an unfortunate level of hubris among the political elites that has left Israel boxed into a corner, where all the choices are bad.
In that way, I think the United States, owes an apology to the Arab world for being less than fair and an apology to the Israeli people for indulging the worst behavior in the Knesset & IDF & Jewish political class in the US, In that way, I think video is _very_ appropriate.
@DLPBurke I worked and lived in Israel for 3 years, two of my staff were arrested & I was harassed for miscegenation. One of my staff was repeatedly assaulted and discrimination against Arabs both on staff and off was both open, rampant and severe. In the lesson of who is right and who is wrong, this video is incredibly relevant and for myself, I choose to be 6000 miles away and as economically and politically disengaged from my former circumstances as possible, but thanks for asking.
That being said... there are plenty of similarities between current world events involving conflict and Babylon 5...
More advanced races/nations/groups prey on those who are weaker... the weaker ones lacking technological parity fight back by resorting to a form of brutal "asymetrical warfare" the stronger side condemns as "terrorism". Then again, bombs falling from the air are equally as terrifying as those planted on a roadside.
G'kar had one of the greatest character arcs in all of TV: from mustache twirling villain to a leader, prophet, and wise, wise man. And no one could have done it better then Andreas Katsulas.
@stormrain71 Not really, in JMS revealed that at the time of "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" both the Narn and the Centari were still kicking. When you think about it though, Molari did as much good as G'Kar, whatever intentionally or not, the difference is that he did a lot bad things before it and had to suffer a gruesome fate which was, for all intense and purposes, undeserved. Still, he pulled through, despite all the bad things that happened.
If the story of the relationship between Lando and G'kar seems more important to you than any of the other stories in the series, then that is what you'll take out of it, but it could not stand on it's own.
I disagree - although a high story point was definitely Londo and G'Kar, I think a lot of the characters went through that point of abandoning their old selves to become something better than they were - Sheridan weakest because he never seemed to go through that epiphany, but Delenn and her rituals, Garibaldi and his fear of control... Not all of them went into a "right direction" either, Ivanova turned to disillusion.
@Mithlas0 "Sheridan weakest because he never seemed to go through that epiphany..."
I think Sheridan has his epiphany on Zha'ha'dum with Lorien (that whole thing about finding something worth living for, instead of something worth dying for).
@Yora21 B5 and the new BSG were both about putting people with inherent character flaws in messed up situations and having them react. To me that is more entertaining to watch a character grow and change. Unlike star trek where you don't really see that as much.
@laxguy22655 Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that or anything. After all some near mindless action can be a healthy thing. Especially if it's anything like the most recent Trek movie (we seariously need MORE of that.)
Thats most likely because of the whole honor thy father belief system thats shared with both societies, that or it was just a more compelling to the show :D
I think its because the Vorlons are the "Lords of Order" hence, as the shadows say "frozen in place". While the Shadows appeared as various characters always changing signifying their "Lords of Chaos" status.
Also, if you remember when Delenn, Ivanova, and Lyta went searching for Sheridan flying around Z'Ha'Dum in the White Star, the Shadows "spoke" (telepathically) to the crew in their respective fathers' voices.
The Vorlons manipulated the Xon, the other intelligent species native to Centauri Prime. Unfortunately they were wiped out after an extremely long and bloody war with the Centauri.
It's worse when the old emperor only wishes to see a Vorlon once before he dies. And when he asks Kosh how everything will end, the short answer is just "In fire."
No i'm not. It's a nice sentiment but G'kar was being manipulated so that he would sacrifice his people for someone else's benefit, in this case the Vorlons.
In the Shattered Dreams, the Narns literally threw themselves into the line of fire because G'kar asked them too.
Hardly Kosh is in the right on both account. Firstly the Narn's desire for vengence has led them to the very edge of destruction secondly if he wishes to redeem his people then a great deal must be sacrificed. The later revelations regarding the Vorlons makes neither of those things incorrect. It's probably worth noting that supplementry information makes it clear Kosh was a member of the 'dove' Vorlon faction and that his death sent the 'hawks' into overdrive.
It was not the Narn's desire for vengeance that led them to destruction but Londo's desire for a new Centauri empire. He started that war. It was not the Narn's who needed redemption but the Centauri.
Not really, the Narns had been relentlessly antagonistic towards pretty much everyone prior to the war. The Centari may be guilty but it's clear that Hatred and hypocrisy had eaten the Narns from the inside.
Take a look at how they're portrayed in season one for example
True, but remember also that Morden gave the Narns a chance to be Shadow thralls. But G'kar's vision wasn't big enough for them.
The Narn's could easily have been the aggressors in which case it would be Londo being lectured by Kosh regarding the need to sacrifice when his people were decimated.
My point is that sentiments without context are just that, sentiment. Christ said that if a man should steal your shoes, offer him you jacket as well. Do you really think that would work IRL?
That isnt really a statement in defence of Narn simply being shortsighted does not make one great, plus it was dumb luck that some Human asking philisophical questions has an army of Darkness to back them up
Sentiments are often unrealistic but they always reflect a real aspiration and something worth attempting, something which Christ was probably aware of. simply put holding grudges is counter productive and lands you in shit in all worlds
God bless you Andreas Katsulas for giving us such a great character like G'kar. He is, without doubt, my absolute favorite Babylon 5 character, followed by Delenn.
Not scifi, pulp fiction.
mrteemumilto 5 days ago
Anyone know where that scene is where G'kar talks about when leaving Babylon 5, we leave a part of ourselves behind?
starflame34 1 week ago
one of the strongest scene in the series ... one of many ...
MrBensella 2 weeks ago
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sunnchilde 3 weeks ago
I still can't believe that the guy playing the Narn in G'Kar's vision is the same actor as played Bishop Brennan in 'Father Ted'. That guy is awesome.
zingzangspillip1 3 weeks ago
One of my fav scenes too. And perhaps ther's a powerful dark force pulling the strings from the shadows in the israel-palastine conflict too. Just like the Shadows and the centauries.
einherje71 1 month ago
There is also a parallelism with the three predominate faiths of the region. The hate is palpable where military segregation is necessary. You could be bombed, have your house burned down or even be killed. It's almost a fantasy wish that all would have mass amnesia and get to start over without the past memories of atrocities against each party of another. I wish all people a life full of progressive and humane resources such as food, education and shelter but not any teachings that make hate.
BigDiamondCutter 1 month ago
Are not the Narns clearly Jews and the Centauri Germans? No Babylon 5 equivelant to Jewish bolsheviks though.
captainstern3 2 months ago
How is this even closely related to Israel and palestine?
The Jews came back to their homeland after 2000 years of being dispersed. They came by ships and bought back their land. Jordan then tried to annihilate them (as usual) and failed (as usual).
Tell the suicide bombers and terrorists to stop sending rockets every day, and there will automatically be peace.
pingviller 2 months ago
@pingviller And tell the Jews to stop building settlements on Palestinian land. And tell them to stop blockading the Gaza Strip that is causing widespread poverty in the region. Tell them to stop evicting Palestinians from their homes. Oh and tell them to stop opposing the recognition of a Palestinian state.
What? You didn't realize that the Palestinians have some legitimate grievances against the Israelis? You didn't research the complexities of the conflict?
Typical.
Violent2aShadow 2 months ago
@Violent2aShadow
I don't mean to get techinical here, but the Palestinians don't reckongize Isreal, so how can they have grievances with something they don't reckongize ?
Fact, there current gourverment has vowed to drive the jews back into the sea.
Fact that hostilities orginaly started because of them.
Fact after 2 very bloody conflicts which they started and got beaten in they still had too resort to terrorisme.
What you only researched the last 10 years ? Typical.
WarSmurfs 1 month ago
@WarSmurfs When a group exists yet is not recognized by another... what does that say about the latter? I am not pro-isreal or pro-palestine since I belong to neither. However, I am compassionate of the suffering found in that area of the middle east. It appears all sides are raised by their elders to believe that hatred of the "enemy" is justice yet no one appears to see the true suffering of their civilization. Their potential is essentially nothing since they are consumed in this sad cycle.
BigDiamondCutter 1 month ago
@WarSmurfs Your "facts" are bullshit
The war was started by Egypt and Syria.
So right there we can see you dont have a fucking clue.
DrJReefer 1 month ago
@pingviller Of course the Canaanites were there before the Jews but they were exterminated... by Jews. I'm an anti-semite for pointing this out and therefore automatically in the wrong.
captainstern3 2 months ago 2
"It no longer matters who started it G'kar, it only matters who is suffering."
holdmyhandtv 3 months ago
throw this at the israelis and the palestineans.... it's the same story but no one seems to realize! plz, let them be enlighted!
Cult1022 3 months ago
@Cult1022
Amen to that!
Teardehawkee 3 months ago in playlist Teardehawkee's favorites
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Cult1022 3 months ago
if we look at 9 11 when the plains whent into the trade center and the war on afgans who will stop all the killings!
deanlelie3000 4 months ago
Londo & G'Kar - one of the best tandems ever :)
The most amazing thing is the transformation they both undergo. G'Kar starts as a vengeful and arrogant politician, but becomes very wise and enlightened by the end of the series.
Londo begins as a cheerful funny character, passes through a period of anger and extreme arrogance, and manages to gain some wisdom eventually, although at a heavy price.
It seems strangely appropriate that they died together.
AlexeiVoronin 4 months ago
Angrydead, all he had to do is impersonate his god to get this done, which isn't a good thing to do, but i think sometimes, the ends do justify the means, like this situation.
BoredandTired81 4 months ago
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IrishMike666 4 months ago
@vclxrr There's so much i want to say, but cannot. All that i can get across is: We are all Kosh.
all that could really be added, would be to understand that Kosh would say that he is who he has always been,and so.....we are who we have always been..(nod to Trek fans here) "A dangerous, savage,child race."....so long as we can manage to avoid killing ourselves off,we could become what Kosh was speaking to. and this is of course what this little talk is all about anyway right?
IrishMike666 4 months ago
The trouble with Star Trek is that it's never had the poetry we see here in B5. Episodic TV (stories that run only one stand-alone episode at a time) cannot reach the heights and the depths of the human soul like this. And this wasn't the only time this happened. B5 did this all the time. B5 is to Star Trek what Shakespeare is the "Two and a Half Men"
sunnchilde 4 months ago
There is no place where darkness lies, where light can-not be born.
DrunkenAnimaVideo 5 months ago
ANDREAS KATSULAS WAS GREAT IN THE PART OF GKAR! MAY GOD REST HIS SOUL!
CD1789 5 months ago
Babylon 5 was so well written out. The best series in the 90s and if you ask me, still the best darn show out there, long live Babylon 5.
omega1123 5 months ago
Undoubtedly, Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas are the best of the best. May the latter rest in peace!
lurconis666 5 months ago
1:13-1:20 is such an awesome display of enormous rage and hatred. And then comes the epiphany ... Katsulas FTW.
dvdv7777 5 months ago
Damn this was a great show
artbunker 6 months ago 19
Such a great scene.
But my biggest issue with this is that G'kar doesn't go to his friends and allies after this and tell them what he's learned.
You'd think that would be the logical thing to do.
TheJboy88 6 months ago
@TheJboy88
he sort of does - writes it down and tells garibaldi
darkstar1345a 6 months ago
@darkstar1345a correct
hamsteronspeed01 6 months ago
@TheJboy88 Maybe it would help to "walk a mile in his shoes" so to speak. What whould you do if you had such a profound vision? Think about it for a while... Kosh appears as an angel to G'Kar, drops mad knowledge on him, and poof! he's gone. What would you do? My opinion on this would be that running off and telling everyone he sees would make him look like the guy with the " Repent the end is near" sign....lol just a thought.
IrishMike666 4 months ago
G'Kar asked the Vorlon question at 1:45 "Who are you?"
YelDohan 7 months ago
"What hope is there left for Narn if all of Creation falls around us? No hope, no dream, no future, no life. Unless we turn from the cycle of hatred towards something greater." Reminds me of a quote of captain Sinclair "You become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy" which certainly holds true for the Narns. If you compromise anything to tear down the enemy you will corrupt yourself beyond recognition. The only hope is to turn away hatred, and treat it as the poison it is.
LordGodsServant 7 months ago
what a great series!... it's like some sort of "Bible" (or other text people consider important) or mythological stories full of important symbolic meaning about humanity and Reality. I've watched my DVD sets through maybe 8 times and I've just started watching them again - maybe I'll learn something new or have some new reflections on the complexity within this grand series! It's much more than just entertainment ... it's modern-day Mythology full of important lessons and hidden meanings!
pugcasso 7 months ago
It seems that G'Kar holds a piece of Kosh within him. "I have always been here" he said. Kosh didnt just come to save Londos life, he came to save G'Kar's very soul from the darkness of hate. G'kar once quoted Shiquone, the narn relegious figure. "There is a greater darkness then the one we face. It is the Darkness of the soul that has lost its way." Seems it fits perfectly with what G'Kar was going threw at that moment.
porpus99 8 months ago
@Kwinnky
Exactly. Ulkesh wanted only one thing from the younger races: obedience. Nothing more. "It is wise for the arrow to remember it does not choose the target". Kosh, in his own way, cared.
Nergalsama01 8 months ago 2
Too bad the vorlons couldn't take their own advice when it pertains to themselves and the Shadows.
prncmodred 8 months ago 2
@prncmodred AH HA!!! a true flicker a wisdom!! :)do you also remember when Sheridan compared them to parents arguing in front of their chlidren. manipulating them, trying to get them to pick sides. not for the benefit of the children but for themselves. This is how Kosh was different. I believe this is also a deeper secondary message of this epiphany. "when we involve ourselves in the lives of others. Are we doing so for their benefit? or for our own? for if it is the latter than we are corrupt
IrishMike666 4 months ago
it does not matter who started it. it only matters who is suffering
wise words
dchris1990 8 months ago 2
G'kar reminds me of an elegant sword. beaten with hammer, tempered by fire to be doused by wisdom. powerful in application and noble in bearing.
MangoBastard 9 months ago 3
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@MangoBastard "G'kar reminds me of an elegant sword. beaten with hammer, tempered by fire to be doused by wisdom. powerful in application and noble in bearing."
I've seen excellent descriptions of G'Kar before, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do so with so few words, so poetically stated. That is a magnificent turn of phrase!
logandarklighter 8 months ago
I have to say that Londo and G'kar relationship over the series is THE BEST IN THE HISTORY OF TELEVISION!
brav0wing 10 months ago 14
I like to think of a quote of Commander Sinclair from season 1 of the show "When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy" that is certainly true of the Narn/Centauri situation and even the Shadow/Vorlon war. The Narn's had no desire beyong destroying the Centauri and became just as bad as the Centauri. It means that if you focus on your hate of something to the exclusion of all else you lose in the end, because you will do anything, sacrifice anything to tear that thing down
LordGodsServant 10 months ago 2
i always felt that they didnt need to physically put kosh there at the end -- if we couldnt figure out it was him by the fact that he took the appearance of g'kar's father, something he's known to do, the "angel" at the end makes it unmistakable. actually showing kosh was hitting us over the head with it
gunsbulletsheroin 10 months ago
@gunsbulletsheroin I actually like it. In GKar's dream, we see Kosh as he truly is... a kind, gentle, wise old man. Then outside, we see the hard shell that he showed the world.
starsiegeplayer 7 months ago
@starsiegeplayer I disagree, I don't see the dream-Kosh as his true self, rather a form he's coldly taking to manipulate G'Kar -- it's not just any old man, but his father and he's exploiting G'kar's feelings toward him. Now Kosh's manipulation may be justifiable and it certainly made G'kar into a better man. But Kosh had his own goals in mind
gunsbulletsheroin 7 months ago
@gunsbulletsheroin The "angel" was the true tip off to G'Kar that it wasn't really his father, and he knew it. Kosh also appeared to Sheridan as his father (and wasn't pretending to be his father either). This is, I think, because Kosh thought of people like G'Kar and Sheridan like his own children.
starsiegeplayer 7 months ago 2
@starsiegeplayer i don't agree. sheridan (and delenn i guess) was the only one who knew that the "angel" everyone saw was kosh. kosh and sheridan had a much closer relationship than kosh and g'kar (sheridan carried a piece of kosh and was often sent visions by him) and the two were much closer to being on equal footing (sheridan's about the only member of a younger race that could convince him to sacrifice himself). g'kar saw the "angel" as further proof of the divine nature of his revelation
gunsbulletsheroin 7 months ago
@gunsbulletsheroin Yes, there's no question as to what G'Kar saw the "angel" as. What I am saying: G'kar didn't think his father was an angel at the end. Kosh chose the appearance of a parent because that's how Kosh sees himself.
starsiegeplayer 7 months ago
@gunsbulletsheroin Here, I disagree with you, and agree with starsiegeplayer, Kosh sees the younger races as children. He is one of the oldest of the Vorlons, and thus one of the wisest. Compare to his replacement, who was cold, blunt, and forceful. When that happened, I was initially shocked, I didn't like the change to the Vorlons. However, I realized that the Vorlons didn't change, Kosh was simply more perceptive when it came to the younger races than the rest.
Jallorn 6 months ago
@gunsbulletsheroin manipulate g'kar? yes. but i don't think he did so in a "cold" way to reach his own goals. kosh and the vorlons were of the opinion that the narn (and centauri) were a lost people. it may have been too late to save them as a race, but it's never too late to save their souls. i think kosh sent this vision to manipulate g'kar and the narn by extension into becoming an asset to the "army of light" but also to help g'kar and the narn become something nobler than they were.
Swordsman808 6 months ago
@Swordsman808 I think it was more than just that. Before this Kosh's advice was to let them die. I like to think this was also Kosh realising that there was something worth saving. Kosh was never as brutal as Ulkesh was, but I think for most of the series he didn't realise that. He was always mroe sympathetic to the younger races, but it wasn't until near the end that he saw how much things needed to change and finally started taking action(ultimately prompted by Sheridan)
Wirrn 5 months ago
@Swordsman808 wow. Kosh was truly wise. uhm,was that g`quan,the main hero of of the Narm ppl?you know,the winged narn that appeared to g`kar?
waynec38 3 months ago
0:21-CURTAIN!!!!
angrydead 10 months ago
After 4 years we were finally allowed to learn what the Vorlon had been trying to tell us all of that time. But, just as J'Kar had to be in a certain place to begin to understand that, so did the audience... truely great writing.
LordGodStronghold 10 months ago
@LordGodStronghold Not all the vorlons were benevolent, ...just some, including Kosh! When Sheridan asks Kosh to intervene in the shadow war, he said that there are just few of them! At first I thought that he was talking about his race, but actually he was talking about the few of the Vorlon that remembered the true purpose of their race,...that of teachers and not of ideologists! That's the reason why Kosh (or what remained of him in Sheridan) kills the crazed vorlon that replaced him!
brav0wing 10 months ago 3
Has anyone ever seen the parallelism of this conflict between the Centauri vs Narn and Israelis and Palestinians? The cycle of death between both sides. Listen to the words of the "angel" and substitute. I wish for peace in the Middle East so all the people can live the happiest lives possible without fear of suicide bombers or attacks.
BigDiamondCutter 11 months ago 19
@BigDiamondCutter I think that was where JMS drew the inspiration for the cycle of hatred between the Narns and the Centauri.
Fbueller129 10 months ago
@BigDiamondCutter I totally agree. It's ironic that a sci fi fantasy show could wake us and shake us into realizing who we truly are in this reality!
peskylisa 2 months ago
One of the best scenes in the entire show. All I can think when I'm watching it though is 'That's Bishop Brennan!'
Dimbo 11 months ago
And the sign behind the Vorlon says "Danger". Another piece of the mystery surrounding whether they are really good or bad until we learn later.
Andreas Katsulas is such an amazing actor. Especially when it comes to expressing emotion.
JoeHooker11 11 months ago
@gasdfw5 More difficult.
AubinMagnus 11 months ago
Dust to Dust was such a great episode.
crusher0427 11 months ago
The flashback sequences are good, but I've come to hate how no one ever uses the POV for them to make it realistic.
Varrenify 11 months ago
@Varrenify yes that was a shame they didnt do a POV.
DLPBurke 5 months ago
What episode is this from?
hearthetruth2 11 months ago
@hearthetruth2
Dust to Dust.
crusher0427 11 months ago
@hearthetruth2
Dust to Dust from Season 3 episode 6. Great episode.
crusher0427 11 months ago
Dust to Dust from Episode 6, season 3.
crusher0427 11 months ago
BTW, Gkar was the best character in Sci Fi. Wow from villain to hero in 5 seasons
Bander1 1 year ago 9
@Bander1 no! Babylon 5 is more about Mollari's path to redemption! Gkar was never the vilain, he even helped Sinclair's Girlfriend with a wonderful speech in the first season
raoulhery 2 months ago
@raoulhery
Also true...originally sworn enemies...they were the key to each other's redemption.
Bander1 2 months ago
@Bander1 I think that G'Kar was just like Boromir. The only thing he always wanted was for his people to be safe. And that is what he tries to do, time and again.
month32 2 months ago
One of hte best TV scenes ever best of Sci Fi TV
Bander1 1 year ago
It is enough to make grown men weep.
Incredible acting.
singletona082 1 year ago 3
3 people are loyal to the royal court
chockn 1 year ago 7
I have watched this whole series about 6 times now, It still makes me laugh out loud and cry. I love it.
galvador12 1 year ago 3
God but I miss Andreas Katsulas.
fatibel42 1 year ago 62
@fatibel42 He has gone to travel, beyong the rim.
PhoenixPlaneswalker 6 months ago 2
@fatibel42 Wildly underated. The Christopher Lee of our generation.
DrJReefer 6 months ago
That's what's so awesome about Kosh-a simple nudge and he turned an angry bitter racist into the great man he had the potential to be.
angrydead 1 year ago 40
@angrydead (regarding Kosh) Indeed, i agree. And, i think we all have chances to be like that, each in our own way: Each day, the things we do and say to those we encounter may have a more profound impact than we will ever know.
There's so much i want to say, but cannot. All that i can get across is: We are all Kosh.
vclxrr 4 months ago
Comment removed
alorednes 1 year ago
Despite how often Kosh looked and behaved apathetically towards others I think this clip and the later clip where he's dying, show that he does care for them. He cares for Sheridan, G'Kar, and the rest in his own way and giving nudges in the right direction when they're ready to step forward.
NeoIvan17 1 year ago 5
9 question marks ?????????
funkmystar 1 year ago
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The Shallow vs. Vorlons? Epoch movie theme? Matrix theme? Final Fantasty theme?
Final Conflict theme? Ori theme in Star Gate? Notice how many shows in sciefi went religious? What is the secret source of these religious themes?
All from a secret website put up in 1988. Believe it not, the predicted Little Book, which would finally explain the mystery of God. I read it, guess what? IT DOES!
As impossible as it sounds, it does! Everything
Finally put in a book( God vs. Satan Untold Story
lindazimmer 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The Shallow vs. Vorlons? Epoch movie theme? Matrix theme? Final Fantasty theme?
Final Conflict theme? Ori theme in Star Gate? Notice how many shows in sciefi went religious? What is the secret source of these religious themes?
All from a secret website put up in 1988. Believe it not, the predicted Little Book, which would finally explain the mystery of God. I read it, guess what? IT DOES!
As impossible as it sounds, it does! Everything
Finally put in a book( God vs. Satan Untold Story)
lindazimmer 1 year ago
@lindazimmer Cool story bro
AleximusMaximus 1 year ago
their struggles are analagous to israel palestine
LambChowder1 1 year ago 3
@LambChowder1 its all basic war policy ,the duality of an enemy and a good guy ,but who is who?are both not the enemy of themselves if they both choose paths of hate,,..yep its a tricky 1
reksub10 1 year ago
@LambChowder1 Perhaps I think their's a more timeless quality than that. Any two races locked in a cycle of pain and war can relate I hope.
angrydead 1 year ago 2
I think Kosh was the only one of the Vorlons that realized they and the Shadows were caught in the same cycle as the Narns and the Centauri. He genuinely wanted to help the younger races and not simply impose his people's dogma on them. That's why he really brought the inquisitor to test Delenn, taught Sheridan and intervened in this instance in order to show them a different way than Order vs. Chaos.
Fbueller129 1 year ago 8
This show was epic!!!
mitchtivi 1 year ago 4
there comes a time in our life's when the peney drops this is just one of them when g'kar gets a second chance and see's were it can all end for the narns so standding at a cross roads it is upto you were you can turn. the vorlon was the sign, left to the darkness right to a new life and if you can be the bigger man, and go foward you will have a long life.but life is short and what gose a round comes around like in the film
deanlelie3000 1 year ago
This is probably the best scene I have ever seen on TV. There are some that may have come close, but the intensity of the dialogue, all the drama leading up to this point and the paradoxical relationship between Londo and G'Kar is the best thing this or any other TV show I've watched have to offer.
TheFlash011 1 year ago 3
And to think I wasted my time watching DS9 when I should've been watching the real deal. I can deffinately see where them TREK producers ripped off their ideas from.
Bla31n 1 year ago 4
@Bla31n I remember that the DS9 Showrunners and B5 Showrunners were A-Okay with one another. Even JMS thinks they didn't rip him off.
ShadowSonic2 1 year ago
@ShadowSonic2 I came off a little too harsh. I wasn't exactly taken to B5 when I first watched dips-and-dabs of it back as a kid. I had something of a borderline obsession with TREK; that was till after it started to turn me off. TNG movies were lousy and VOY got on my nerves. I began to despise Contemporary TREK.
Bla31n 1 year ago
@Bla31n I didn't have the station B5 was on until it was on TNT, but I enjoyed it. I didn't watch much Trek after TNG, some DS9 and some VOY. I began doing research a few years ago and found out most of what was bad about VOY and ENT was really due to extreme Executive Meddling and not the Producers/Writers. So I enjoy it all.
ShadowSonic2 1 year ago
@ShadowSonic2 (In regard to producers messing with StarTrek). I'd tend to agree somewhat. I think the biggest problem that shows like that face is not that the events portrayed wouldn't necessarily be something that might happen in the Trek universe. Rather, i think it's about a combination of limited screen time + lack of vision. A show needs to capture our imagination quickly, and have a visionary behind it. That's why B5, ST:TOS, and ST:TNG did so well. Otherwise, it becomes more about money.
vclxrr 4 months ago
@vclxrr DS9 did have Mike Piller (for the first 2 seasons) and Ira Behr (for the rest, brought in by Piller) guiding it. VOY suffered from not having dedicated showrunners, or showrunners allowed to do what they wanted (Braga had great ideas, but was constantly overruled). ENT HAD a good showrunner (Manny Coto) but not soon enough.
ShadowSonic2 4 months ago
@ShadowSonic2 I also see that formula come together well in BtVS (Buffy) (which had Joss Whedon as its visionary, creator, writer, and executive producer) and new Doctor Who (which has had, over the course of its run so far, two very good primary writers whose vision for the show has created story arcs with excellent internal consistency).
vclxrr 4 months ago
If you would seek vengeance, begin first by digging two graves.
dkerris 1 year ago 5
@dkerris Very true
LiberorumDeus 1 year ago
0:22
They caught the wall of to the left
Roncace 1 year ago
one of the best scenes in sci-fi history!!
honor his name! ;-)
tasmandevil0811 1 year ago
Who or What is my true enemy? Years ago this scene rattled my conscience with the force of an exploding star. I will never forget.
TheOuterMost 1 year ago
g kar and londo are the loveliest, coolest and very honorable caracters of the babylon series!!!!
respect.
eddydamaskus 1 year ago 3
1:00
bolrins32 1 year ago
Loved Kosh, hated what happened to him
highlandwolf01 1 year ago
Good old Kosh
all13Doctors 1 year ago
Someone should show this to the Arabs...
Optimusnorm 1 year ago
@Optimusnorm
Don't forget the Israelis...
PeoplesGeneral 1 year ago
@PeoplesGeneral - it's more relevant to the Arabs. The Israelis aren't raising their kids to hate or trying to change history to support their cause of total annexation of the entire middle east with Jews under their rule.
Optimusnorm 1 year ago
@Optimusnorm
Are you sure you're seeing both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
You might wanna look up a groups of people who have an ideology that "true Jews" in Israel and America label as "Zionists".
PeoplesGeneral 1 year ago
@PeoplesGeneral - yes I'm seeing both sides. I don't really love either but as I mentioned the Israelis are not raising their kids with guns in hand, glorifiying suicide bombings and brainwashed to wipe out their enemies from existence.
Actually believing Jews are quite few in number. Most Israelis are secular and want to survive in a sea of hostility...they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Optimusnorm 1 year ago
@Optimusnorm
Tell me something about Israel, I don't already know... I dated an Israeli girl from Haifa back in college. She's quite "secular", like most western Christians and even some Muslims.
Palestinians/Arabs aren't teaching their kids to hate, the groups known as Hezbollah, and Hamas, however do.
Meanwhile groups from Israel known as people with a Zionist mentality, and some people within the IDF and Mossad are going around killing Palestinians and bulldozing their homes.
PeoplesGeneral 1 year ago
@PeoplesGeneral - I suggest you look into Hamas, who control most of the schools and media and whose official mandate is to wipe Israel out of existence. Israel would be insance NOT to suggest killing them is a bad idea.
Let's not forget half of northern Israel spends their nights sleeping in shelters because of random rocket attacks which have been going on for years.
There is a huge amount of Anti-Jewishness in the Arab world...I know because I live there...it's shocking.
Optimusnorm 1 year ago
@Optimusnorm - I think it's because violence begets violence. Unfortunately, because of the lavish US support, the Israeli people are now hated across the region, because the support gives comfort to the most violent and hardline elements of Israeli society. Why back down or propose some reasonable compromise on an issue when you can simply afford to be as brutal as one might ever hope to be in the suppression of the slightest offense. In that way , the Israeli people could not be more poorly
proadmin1 1 year ago
@Optimusnorm supported. Such accommodation of radicalization and hard-line attitudes and an unfortunate level of hubris among the political elites that has left Israel boxed into a corner, where all the choices are bad.
In that way, I think the United States, owes an apology to the Arab world for being less than fair and an apology to the Israeli people for indulging the worst behavior in the Knesset & IDF & Jewish political class in the US, In that way, I think video is _very_ appropriate.
proadmin1 1 year ago
@proadmin1 Clearly you have no idea about Islam or you would realise there is no dialogue with it, it won't allow for it. It is an evil religion.
DLPBurke 5 months ago
@DLPBurke I worked and lived in Israel for 3 years, two of my staff were arrested & I was harassed for miscegenation. One of my staff was repeatedly assaulted and discrimination against Arabs both on staff and off was both open, rampant and severe. In the lesson of who is right and who is wrong, this video is incredibly relevant and for myself, I choose to be 6000 miles away and as economically and politically disengaged from my former circumstances as possible, but thanks for asking.
proadmin1 4 months ago
@proadmin1 I know full well what Islam is about and what Palestine is about so it is no good trying to convince me with your stories.
DLPBurke 4 months ago
Comment removed
proadmin1 5 months ago
@Optimusnorm
That being said... there are plenty of similarities between current world events involving conflict and Babylon 5...
More advanced races/nations/groups prey on those who are weaker... the weaker ones lacking technological parity fight back by resorting to a form of brutal "asymetrical warfare" the stronger side condemns as "terrorism". Then again, bombs falling from the air are equally as terrifying as those planted on a roadside.
We even see this in several Babylon 5 battles.
PeoplesGeneral 1 year ago
@Optimusnorm Might be a good idea to show it to the Americans, too.
Dracofire87 1 year ago
@Dracofire87 - I think we should show it to the Indonesians, Iranians, Russians and Turks before the USA...
Optimusnorm 1 year ago
@Optimusnorm
EVERYONE should be shown this. Even if the hatred/anger/war/fighting is between only 2 people.
"Anger is like a hot coal you intend on throwing at someone, in the end it is you who gets burned." -Buddhist saying
PeoplesGeneral 1 year ago
G'kar had one of the greatest character arcs in all of TV: from mustache twirling villain to a leader, prophet, and wise, wise man. And no one could have done it better then Andreas Katsulas.
wynternight777 1 year ago 4
This show isn't really about Sharidan, Garibaldi, Ivanova, or Delenn. They are just providing the background and flesh out the universe.
The important story is entirely about Londo and G'Kar realizing their mistakes and together becomming better people.
Yora21 1 year ago 113
@Yora21
Hmm. G'kar manages to save his people. "Some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved". But Londo... Poor man.
At the end he slowly realize what horrible choices he made. "I could warn you, but you would not listen" says one technomage in one of the episodes.
I hope the Centaury survives but they are in for a hard time after B5 is destroyed.
stormrain71 1 year ago 3
@stormrain71 the technomage is named elric. just so u know XD
undertakerattic 1 year ago
@stormrain71 Not really, in JMS revealed that at the time of "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" both the Narn and the Centari were still kicking. When you think about it though, Molari did as much good as G'Kar, whatever intentionally or not, the difference is that he did a lot bad things before it and had to suffer a gruesome fate which was, for all intense and purposes, undeserved. Still, he pulled through, despite all the bad things that happened.
Mahaanus 1 year ago
@Yora21 I'd say it's more about the characters, not the glitz like so many shows these days.
Enderschoice 1 year ago 2
@Yora21 What?... I had the impression that this show is about everybody including peripherals, not just the principal players.
-R78
Rodimus78 1 year ago
@Yora21
The show is about Babylon 5.
If the story of the relationship between Lando and G'kar seems more important to you than any of the other stories in the series, then that is what you'll take out of it, but it could not stand on it's own.
z3r0t0l3r4ns 1 year ago
@Yora21
I can say the show was always working on a higher level when it came to those two.
sedeyus 1 year ago 4
@Yora21
I disagree - although a high story point was definitely Londo and G'Kar, I think a lot of the characters went through that point of abandoning their old selves to become something better than they were - Sheridan weakest because he never seemed to go through that epiphany, but Delenn and her rituals, Garibaldi and his fear of control... Not all of them went into a "right direction" either, Ivanova turned to disillusion.
Mithlas0 1 year ago
@Mithlas0 And Lennier was the same way, not being able to accept that Delenn and Sheridan were together.
Gallowell 1 year ago
@Mithlas0 "Sheridan weakest because he never seemed to go through that epiphany..."
I think Sheridan has his epiphany on Zha'ha'dum with Lorien (that whole thing about finding something worth living for, instead of something worth dying for).
squigglyjoe 1 year ago 2
@Yora21 B5 and the new BSG were both about putting people with inherent character flaws in messed up situations and having them react. To me that is more entertaining to watch a character grow and change. Unlike star trek where you don't really see that as much.
laxguy22655 1 year ago 5
@laxguy22655 Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that or anything. After all some near mindless action can be a healthy thing. Especially if it's anything like the most recent Trek movie (we seariously need MORE of that.)
singletona082 1 year ago
@Yora21 That's why they're left last in the opening credits. Always save the best for last!
PeoplesGeneral 10 months ago
Interesting how the Vorlons always appear as father figures in their psychic visions yet in Lorien's vision they appear as a woman frozen in ice
robblindsay 1 year ago
@robblindsay
Thats most likely because of the whole honor thy father belief system thats shared with both societies, that or it was just a more compelling to the show :D
cidesplague 1 year ago
@robblindsay
I think its because the Vorlons are the "Lords of Order" hence, as the shadows say "frozen in place". While the Shadows appeared as various characters always changing signifying their "Lords of Chaos" status.
Also, if you remember when Delenn, Ivanova, and Lyta went searching for Sheridan flying around Z'Ha'Dum in the White Star, the Shadows "spoke" (telepathically) to the crew in their respective fathers' voices.
PeoplesGeneral 1 year ago
SO F***ING AWESOME
jimsalehi 1 year ago
0:53 DAMN THATS SOME HEAVY SHIT JUST SENT SHIVERS.... IM OF TO GET THIS ON DVD, ITS BEEN TO LONG AND IT STILL HAS THE POWER!!!
wow just remembered, cant wait for "i am called valan, and we have much work to do''
bigabs18281 1 year ago 2
I feel so sad for the Centaury. The vorlorns just ignored them instead of teaching them. "We should let them pass" Kosh says in one episode.
I just hope the aliens out there would be so kind as to teach us and not wait for us to destroy ourself.
A little help would be nice.
stormrain71 1 year ago 2
The Vorlons manipulated the Xon, the other intelligent species native to Centauri Prime. Unfortunately they were wiped out after an extremely long and bloody war with the Centauri.
pmagrin 1 year ago
It's worse when the old emperor only wishes to see a Vorlon once before he dies. And when he asks Kosh how everything will end, the short answer is just "In fire."
Yora21 1 year ago
pay no attention to the Vorlon behind the curtain....
Bronasaxon 1 year ago 138
@Bronasaxon You mean Kosh, alias Sinclair, alias Valen, alias G'kwan?
williamskidfears 1 year ago
@Bronasaxon the Vorlon was in control you fool! Kosh was all seeing etc.
Lindial 1 year ago
@Bronasaxon You mean Sinclair?! :-D
williamskidfears 9 months ago
It's so funny when G'kar goes into Lundo's place all drugged up. Listen to the music in the background!
Danny77uk 2 years ago
it doesnt matter who started it-It only matters who is suffering-something we would do well to remember in our world
angrydead 2 years ago 4
Remember that this Vorlon manipulation. They used the Narn just like everyone else.
Danny77uk 2 years ago
I think you're missing the point.
angrydead 2 years ago
No i'm not. It's a nice sentiment but G'kar was being manipulated so that he would sacrifice his people for someone else's benefit, in this case the Vorlons.
In the Shattered Dreams, the Narns literally threw themselves into the line of fire because G'kar asked them too.
Danny77uk 2 years ago
Hardly Kosh is in the right on both account. Firstly the Narn's desire for vengence has led them to the very edge of destruction secondly if he wishes to redeem his people then a great deal must be sacrificed. The later revelations regarding the Vorlons makes neither of those things incorrect. It's probably worth noting that supplementry information makes it clear Kosh was a member of the 'dove' Vorlon faction and that his death sent the 'hawks' into overdrive.
angrydead 2 years ago
It was not the Narn's desire for vengeance that led them to destruction but Londo's desire for a new Centauri empire. He started that war. It was not the Narn's who needed redemption but the Centauri.
Danny77uk 2 years ago
Not really, the Narns had been relentlessly antagonistic towards pretty much everyone prior to the war. The Centari may be guilty but it's clear that Hatred and hypocrisy had eaten the Narns from the inside.
Take a look at how they're portrayed in season one for example
angrydead 2 years ago
True, but remember also that Morden gave the Narns a chance to be Shadow thralls. But G'kar's vision wasn't big enough for them.
The Narn's could easily have been the aggressors in which case it would be Londo being lectured by Kosh regarding the need to sacrifice when his people were decimated.
My point is that sentiments without context are just that, sentiment. Christ said that if a man should steal your shoes, offer him you jacket as well. Do you really think that would work IRL?
Danny77uk 1 year ago 2
That isnt really a statement in defence of Narn simply being shortsighted does not make one great, plus it was dumb luck that some Human asking philisophical questions has an army of Darkness to back them up
Sentiments are often unrealistic but they always reflect a real aspiration and something worth attempting, something which Christ was probably aware of. simply put holding grudges is counter productive and lands you in shit in all worlds
angrydead 1 year ago
This one of my favorite scenes!! I love how G'Kar looks into Londo's mind, and later he sees his father through Kosh. VERY COOL!!
thomascromwellsgirl 2 years ago
epic show, it stands on the very top of Sci-Fi.
scratchy996 2 years ago
God bless you Andreas Katsulas for giving us such a great character like G'kar. He is, without doubt, my absolute favorite Babylon 5 character, followed by Delenn.
silaku 2 years ago 4
yes one of the most powerful and sad scenes in B5.
It could also point at Israel and Palestine.
If both sides are dead, noone will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matter who started it. It only matter who is suffering.
stormrain71 2 years ago 3