@JohnnyRock2000 US don't want your balls. You're already barrowing our left one. J/K Seriously, I never thought about it. What would it be like if you had more indigionous military equip. The only thing I know that's orginal and made in Caanada are mountain bikes.
@MavHunter20XX - Basketball, Univeral Health Care and more. Sure, we live under the US shadow, but we are the good guys and your true friend. Not like Israel, that picks your pocket and manipulates you folks into huge and costly wars. Give Israel a smack on the backside of the head, open a dialogue with the whole word. Gotta concentrate on your own country and it's overall health, or others like China and Israel will rule you.
@MavHunter20XX "For the past 25 years, A glorified crane has proven itself to be more like the space shuttle’s right hand – or maybe its whole right arm, capable of both heavy lifting and an incredibly delicate touch.The remote manipulator system – named Canadarm in honor of the country that built it" “It was a major breakthrough" quote from NASA website
@JohnnyRock2000 lol apparently we are buying them back this year. Something like 65 f-35 jets. We should have kept the plans though. It makes no sense, like building a sand castle and destroy it, accept it was a really expensive sand castle lol.
@777Sarahbelle - It's a sad legacy. Whatever the cause, money or manipulation, John Diefenbaker will be remembered for this one sad thing. Would have been great to mothball the whole thing, not vaporize it.
Deifenbaker listened to Eisenhowers intimidation scare tactics to scrap the aircraft. The Americans did not want the Russians and the rest of the World know what Canada had available. Thanks to Eisenhower the World got stuck with the Cold War mess. Ask US General Patton about what kind of asshole idiot Eisenhower is.
@BBQFanNo1 The Arrow was in much the same position as the TSR2. Lots of potential but a long and very expensive development road. Canada as with the UK simply couldn't afford to fund it particularly as it would be a short production run. It is obviously an emotional topic for Canadians but there is also a lot of myths about what happened and why. Conspiracy theories about this can generally be disproved by reviewing documents and reports from the time. PS I don't think Ike drove Soviet policy.
Deifenbaker listened to American Eisenhower's bullshit threat that the Americans would not protect Canada from the Russians unless the AVRO Arrow is scrapped and dismantled.
The CF-105 and the XB-70 were both great weapons of the cold war. Both were NEVER meant to go into production. They were built to make the Soviets spend billions of rubels on counter measures like the MIG-25 and other weapons systems. The cold war was fought in the wallet and not the battlefield.
This is getting tiresome, it was scrapped out of common sense, if your anti american bs can't get that little fact into your head how can you really look down at americans. As petev said, like the xb70 these things get canceled when they make no sense anymore.
@adm7007 THey would have stuck with it, had the program not been so expensive. That's why they cancelled the Arrow program; it simply cost too much. Unfortunately that also meant we would get stuck with second-hand Hornets, and then switch to technologically inferior F-35's in the near future. Our air force is really a joke in terms of intimidation.
@MapleLeafAce the cf 35 isnt inferior its a class -30 dBSM stealth multi role fighter carrier and v tol capable it can use more weapons and has a heavier payload it is either equal or surpasses an f 22 rapter in manouvrability and weapons payload tied in stealth wins in ability to go more places loses in speed but wins in more modern electronics an the americans backed out of the f 35 JSF program as well as the f 22 and Lockhead Martin is a multy national company not just an american company
Mig-25/Arrow > much heavier, faster, one seat/two seat, 4 missiles/2 missiles, smaller in all dimensions, delta with rear wings/tailless delta. Not much in common except both were high speed jets.
@lucmitchify It wasn't really a matter of US approval/disapproval. The prevailing thinking (among the British, Americans, etc.) held that interceptors were going to become increasingly redundant in an age of strategic missiles. Of course the role didn't entirely disappear, but a large, expensive program to fill such a narrow role was difficult to justify.
@LeopoldPlumtree Well the time line your talking about here the USAF was still heavly dependent on bombers to deliver nuclear wheapons ,the B52 , B58 hustler, the ICBM hadn't taken over completley yet ,the reason for the Soveit Mig 25 Foxbat high altitude Mach 2.8 all weather interceptor .
@kamphwagon1 "Was still" does not mean "were going to." I said it was believed, in the late '50s, "that interceptors were going to become increasingly redundant in an age of strategic missiles." I didn't mean that age had arrived yet, just that it was projected to be coming soon, which it was. You don't spend what would today equate to billions of dollars on a weapon system you don't believe will still be relevant in several years.
To the people complaining that the US arms industry killed the Arrow... please. The Canadian government killed it because they couldn't afford it. Canada built a world class aircraft, but didn't have a world class economy to pay for it. It simply made more sense economically to license-build existing designs. Same thing for the TSR. Britain's population and economy couldn't keep up with the budget demands of such world beating aircraft... which is why they went to less expensive aircraft.
@DesScorp Absolutly untrue. The final cost of the Arrow was less than the cost of the cf100. Avro built 629 CF100 aircraft at an all up cost of $780 mil. the final cost of the Arrow fully deployed for 100 Arrows was around that same figure at $660mil. consider this. That for many years we defended the north with 66 VooDoo air craft. and now are doing the same with Cf18s of around 100 planes now in service. the Arrow was built in such a fashion as to give the airframe extended sevice life...contd
@mahoganyrush300: You're low-balling the cost in an attempt to butress your 'American interference' conspiracy theories. Most verifiable estimates suggest a fly-away cost of $12M+ per airframe. Keep trying, though
@DesScorp Would likely still be in service though in the more advanced forms that the company had on the drawing board. As for the tsr it is very clear far more so than with the arrow that US interference on several levels most definitly occured.
@DesScorp had Canada ben left alone they would of had a market to sell..thats what killed them ..Eisenhower seen pearl habour after math and knew the rest of the war was going to be won in the air and ground he been around lot of the 101 airborne div and was sent to Washington and there was sooo many things with him and aircraft even into Korea alot of his campain funds were aircraft companys 1958 seen the start of the B-52 and world records which would of been broken and sales lost
If you want some good Documentaries on the avro arrow go here,
avhouse ca/av_005 htm
The docs' have never before seen Avro footage, from the CF 100 to the Avro Car, they got documentaries on it. Very professionally made, the dvd's look like something you would buy at HMV
@PinchinFilms So you are Jans grandson, very cool. i spent some time on the phone with him when I did my research on the arrow in the early eighties. He gave me some very interesting information on the flying characteristics of the plane, a very cool guy allround.
I wish I could have been there to see this magnificent site.
Makes me cry everytime I see this knowing the potential that was there, taken away by a dick face from Saskatchewan (my home province which I fucking HATE,btw) Diefenbaker. Then when he found that is was still wanted, he destroyed them to make himself not look like a bloody fool.
My province hails Diefenbaker as so great. I remember getting suspended from History class every time I brought up canceling the arrow.
Few years older than the Foxbat. Foxbat was made to compete with the Arrow. Of Course the Arrow was cancelled because America, Candas neighbor , was jealous.
Canadians: The Avro Arrow was a FAILURE, search for this video on youtube. such grievance explanations from canadians is embarrassing when you pretend you are superior to americans yet behave so childishly over such things. don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions;) the avro was one of several such planes in the running, it was not a great leap forward, and it was obsolete thanks to icbms, militarys cancel programs all the time, valkaries etc
You should think twice about calling people morons if you can't be bothered to actually read what you are replying to. The valkyrie was canceled, and obsolete from the get go, just like the arrow, which was the point. Your babbling about the accident is completely out of left field.
@1ofDawnmist The Valkyrie was not cancelled because of wingtip vorticies. Every aircraft produces these. It was an astonishing technological achievement but as a high altitude bomber, it was realised that SAM technology would be able to counter it. It was not partially stealthy as was the SR-71. There is also no evidence that F-104s could escort them. The F-104 was short ranged and could only exceed Mach 2 for a few minutes. The Valkyrie cruised at M3+ for several thousand miles.
@LeopoldPlumtree lol XD good point. The only thing I don't exactly like about the arrow is the fact that its shape is a little....generic. Sure it looks pretty awesome regardless but I guess that's the only downfall for me.
@kapquarfa Oh, I wouldn't call it generic. Sure, there were other tailless deltas, but the Arrow had a very distinctive appearance. The trailing edges of the wings tapering rearward sets it apart from most other deltas. A very pretty bird.
America forced us to disarm this fantastic air craft, it is more advanced today than most military aircraft today, if we brought it back, it would be the fastest fighter in the world.
is that why space flight in the usa was possible only by the help of german scientist?:)):))...and a lot of inventions were made by...EUROPEANS:P
usa has a lot of retards there,that go armed into schools and just kills people at random...and that happened several times in the usa if i remember corectly....so your full of everything guys...even of yourselfs:)
The Arrow's planned engines (never installed) weren't proven, the weapons pack was a good idea, but it wasn't even at prototype stage-no advanced avionics, no ejection seat,a primitive canopy.The addl work was prohibitively costly. No, Diefenbaker did well to cut our losses. RCAF aircrew were pleased to get the 101. Recognize the Arrow was unaffordable-hey; we got schools and health care instead-so be happy!
Just to let all you know. I'm Canadian. I find Canada an extremely pathetic country. The caucasian race is going extinct due to all the foreigners here. All I can say is GO U.S.A! WOOOOOOOOOOW! USA! USA! USA! FUCK CANADA! USA! USA!
Wow. All I can say to your retarded comment is wow. Why do I hate Canada? It's because of people like YOU. People who come into this fucking country who cant speak english, people who come here and do as they fucking please. I got a fine for telling a sand nigger merry christmas. So FUCK CANADA! GO USA! USA! USA! GOD'S LAND! USA! AMERICA!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!!
you are the troll for looking at my comment and just needing to comment on it. lmao you nerds make me laugh. seriously get a life and move out of your mothers basement.
This movie is as embarrassing as some of the comments by Canadians on here.
Diefenbaker was more of an uninformed fool rather than a traitor. Hindsight is 20/20 and we look back on the Arrow as a 'what might have been' rather than thinking about the huge hurdles that it still had to surmount to get into squadron service.
Just leave it as it is. A great Canadian aircraft that was at least the equal to the F-4 and BAC Lightning for the role it was designed...
Its funny when historians claim that the Arrow was cancelled because of bombers being obsolete with the era of ICBM's.
Well guess what, back in the 50's and 60's we had something called Electronic Counter Measures
We had the ability to jam radar systems, dazzle missile tracking systems, and this one fact on its own trashes the entire idea of the Arrow being cancelled because of bombers becomming obsolete.
The Americans wanted to dominate the Aerospace industry
Outfoxed and conned by American 'experts' predicting the end of manned fighters -- Jeez, Canada threw away a perfect opportunity to take the lead in innovative supersonic fighters and provide some competition for America's aerospace industry. A terrible shame. America has sabotaged, blackmailed and subverted numerous foreign-based industries & economies around the world. Diefenbaker was outmaneuvered and lost his credibility by Kennedy for his anti-nuke and strong sovereignty position.
See the video titled: "Canadians, the Avro was a failure". The video can be found right here on youtube, is only a few minutes long, and is an excellent insight as to how the Canadian propaganda machine has seriously led it's people astray. The US had nothing to do with the cancelation of this aircraft, or any British programs my friend.
@JohnQRandom I saw that video, Interview of Michael Bliss. His synopsis is erronious as is His information. The arrow was not improperly tested as a for instance. His choice of language is an example of his ignorance of the entire program. American industry greatly feared the arrow and avro canada. Ike did have some influence but takes indepth explanation.
That is absolute bullshit and you know it. It seems you are getting your information about this aircraft from this rediculously, fabricated, propaganda movie shown here. The Arrow wasn't even test flown by Canadians as so wrongly depicted in the movie, and it never "buzzed" An American airforce base. The movie also fails to mention the number of "NON-Canadians " involved with its construction.
@JohnQRandom The test pilots were Jan Zurakowski and Spud Potocki both of polish desent Peter Cope of great britian and RCAF evaluation pilot Jack Woodman born and raised in Saskatoon. Jack was the only canadian born pilot to fly the arrow. His job was to put the plane through it's paces and was very impressed with what the air craft was able to do. Having flown the american planes he Knew the difference. The movie is 50% balogna But its like britany spears It's fluff but it's fun fluff.
I know exactly who the test pilors were and the fact that they were "Polish". The F-106 served as the USAF's interceptor for many years. It was fast, versatile and had a range that met the needs to cover the entire North American continent. It is absolutely inconceivable that "jealous" Americans canceled the Arrow program, and that belief is nothing more than a scape goat for Canadians who are desperately seeking an identity. I'm sorry, I refuse to buy into it.
@JohnQRandom Jealous americans never cancelled the Arrow, Dief cancelled the Arrow having been persuaded by others that it was in the countries best intrest to do so. Read his memoires he talks about this issue and explains his position. Dief was misled by numerous advisors, those that new nothing of the missle age that did not exist yet and whom new nothing of the aircraft age that did. But this missle theory marched on in the minds of the powers that be and never came to fruition.
@JohnQRandom Further to that is the knowing that america was selling planes then and still is...to us...and everyone else for that matter, up until now! To develope an airframe fire control and avionics now requires a consortium of nations to complete. The euro fighter and F35 are examples of this. WHY!! Because it costs so much. This is what killed the arrow. But it is known for an additional 50.000.000 and the cancellation charges to be paid! We could have had all the arrows the RCAF wanted.
@JohnQRandom Further to that is the knowing that america was selling planes then and still is...to us...and everyone else for that matter, up until now! To develope an airframe fire control and avionics now requires a consortium of nations to complete. The euro fighter and F35 are examples of this. WHY!! Because it costs so much. This is what killed the arrow. But it is known for an additional 50.000.000 and the cancellation charges to be paid! We could have had all the arrows the RCAF wanted.
Furthermore, the Avro was an incomplete, time consuming, and expensive aircraft that no other nation wanted to buy "if" it were to ever be completed. Both the US and the UK not only had their own programs going, but the real threat were soon to be Soviet "missles", which for the most made an"interceptor" (like the Arrow) obsolete. I advise you to get your news from something other than Rick Mercer and Molson beer ads.
@JohnQRandom If you look at all the airplanes that the US sold to canada the brits the israelis the germans the french The dutch the belgians. And we are buying the F35 that is still not able to meet the arrows performance. The big difference between the two is that the F35 is VTOL. It is a strike fighter as opposed to an interceptor. The arrow with its removable weapons pack would easily adjust to the job being able to carry missles bombs or teddy bears if thats what you wanted.
@JohnQRandom The arrow was built using the cook craige method of development going straight into production avoiding the prototype stage . The aircraft was ready for the RCAF beginning with arrow 206 all the airforce needed to do was decide on a weapon the American airforce offered for free. There is so much to discuss that this forum is inadequate for space If you wish I will talk to you by phone on my nickel . Just let me know here, I will give you my email you can send your # I will call.
@krivan2494m Good Grief ! Blame the USA for British, and Canadian socialist government mistakes. Yes they should have kept building their own aircraft but their silly social programs ate up the money so they had to buy cheaper USA planes. Blame Socialism the true evil in shuting down these programs. In any event the arrow was obsolete the first time it flew. Even the F106 could out perform it.
@redbaroniii Sorry my man but the F106 was no where near the Arrow as an aircraft. The Arrow had many specialties the F106 was of a conventional design. The Arrow just to make a few points could turn 360degrees at mach 1.5 at 2 g's without loss of speed or alttitude the 106 could not. The mk2a version with the ps13 engine would have broken all records. the thrust to wieght ratio was there the wing area was there the frictional heat defence was there. As an interceptor nothing flying today contd
@redbaroniii is equivalent to the Arrow. the much debated Foxbat is in that vien but could not divert the heat for sustained mach3 flight the arrow could because of the honeycomb micro balloon epoxy insulation used to control heating in the Arrow The Foxbat is very heavy by comparison. The sr71 is another airplane that could but it was unarmed as it was a spy aircraft. There is so much to know about the arrow. "Avro aircraft and cold war aviation" by Randal Whitcomb is a book you need to read.
@raynus1 3 yf1.2 were built it test fired six missles. Intersting fact to know is that when avro was approached in 1958 on a proposed spyplane the specs of the then secret skunk works aircraft were shown to jim floyd his answer was that the arrow fit that requirement but would need refueling in the air the americans were shocked . read the arrow by less wilkinson. stainless steel was the proposed metal for future arrows. that would have been employed in critical areas of heat.
@raynus1 The arrow structure in mk3 arrow included airframe air conditioning (which temprature control failure nearly froze zura in one flight) epoxy micro baloon insulation and other exotic metals in heat critical areas to control heating. you also had in the arrow the issue of heat a tempting to expand the wing and fuel in the wing trying to cool the structure changing the aerodynamics of the wing. these issues were ocercome by designing the air foil to compnsate for these changes.
@LeopoldPlumtree you must not forget that the Arrow was a developemental aircraft that would bypass all the miss givings that developed with the cf100.until the mkV. By the time rl 327 roled off the line we may have seen a radically different airframe. As for being a paper airplane that would be false to say. The F106c was because the company had no plans to develope the airframe any farther. It was a political ploy by political people and had nothing really to do with convair. Avro continued
@LeopoldPlumtree -on the other hand, had every intention of forging ahead with the planes development. The science is there the materials had been ordered and were on hand and in the processing stage. There was a lot going on in that factory no one knows about. For instance the ideas behind putting a man in space was already hatching in jim chamberlins mind. A super sonic transport was drawn up and ready for presentation to any who may be interested.read the jetliner by Jim Floyd, good stuff!!!
@LeopoldPlumtree I also would like to hear from you what your thoughts are on a new fighter for Canada I asked raynus the same question I would like to know what your thoughts are as well.
@mahoganyrush300 I've stated somewhere before I'm not entirely convinced of the F-35 would be the best solution for Canada, especially given the costs. I'm not even close to being an expert analyst on these matters, but it seems to me that the philosophy behind the F-35's A2A capability is predicated on the notion it'll never allow any situation to degrade to within visual range. Not sure how well that'll work in the real world. The close company of an Su-27/30/35 might be nerve wracking.
@LeopoldPlumtree Good day Sir! I found a very interesting video on youtube. Isreal and US to develope modern Arrow three missle defence. What is most interesting is an F15 taking off wearing 2 of these anti Icbm missles under wing. the appearance of the aircraft so equiped, Is chillingly similar to the Avro proposal from 1959 out lined in whitcombs books COLD WAR TECH WAR and AVRO CANADA AND COLD WAR AVIATION A must read for guys like you Raynus and myself. Enjoy the books and video.
@raynus1 the spyplane was proposed first the interceptor idea later. under the guise that an interceptor flying out of area 51 would not seem then unusual. A look into Lyndon Johnsons papers hint at this. we do know he announced the existance of the yf12 in 1963 the proposal itself was cancelled in 64 but continued flying for research. What kind who knows. the sr71 and the arrow are in many ways comparable aircraft both handling the same difficult problems in different ways migs25 & 31 also.
@raynus1 As for the Arrows cost see Fred Smyes book on line. he was president of avro at the time. the book is called Canadian aviation and The Avro ARROW. he gives the real figures and he was the one whom really new. I was surprised at how close my own figures were. While I have your ear, that, of another aviation enthusiast. Give me your take on Canada buying a new fighter jet. Is the f35 the right kind of aircraft for Canada I favor the F18 super hornet. I would like to here your thoughts.
@mahoganyrush300: Doubtful. The CF-105 still utilized aluminum alloy machined wing skins. Aircraft designed for sustained flight at mach 3 required stainless steel, inconel, or titanium skin panels. The A-12/SR-71 required expansion-gapped corrugated titanium panels. The XB-70 required a massive freon cryogenic heat-exchanger assembly to cool the interior, as well as cooled 'wet walls' around the landing gear and drag chute bays.
Just finished a biog on Zura, the Arrow test pilot and WW2 ace.
Like the TSR2, the CF105 was way ahead of it's time and US technology ( - fly by wire aspects would not be matched until the Airbus or even later F16.)
BUT did it make economic sense? Without the US huge tax revenue- Not so sure.
Canada lost expertise and 14000 jobs but the key people were headhunted by NASA to lead the space program. Though the US paid the bill Canada should be as pound of Apollo as Von Braun's Germany.
Beautiful, innovative aircraft. A shame what happened to it. A bigger shame that partial blueprints were later found in a Russian archive. Apparently Avro had a mole problem.
And I notice people are blaming the Americans for its demise. Partial blame must rest with the Diefenbaker government, along with controversial (and bullshit) reports from American and British "experts" predicting the end of the manned fighter.
Canada is what the U.S could have been if it have outlawed slavery out right, not have killed all the Indians, had abandoned their ridiculous racism,had seen the glory of socialism and hadn't developed nuclear weapons and wagged it's finger at Russia. Also, McGill beats the shit out of Berkeley, Chalk River beats Los Alamos-I wish I had the money to move!!!! Fuck Hey Canadian white women!!
Then the Americans wonder why everybody shits on them. This is one of the reasons why. Man why can't us Canadians make a more modern version now? Guess we'll get forced to buy some expired US goods this time.....
Even the pilot of the arrow Came along way..Forced out of poland in the war to fighting back in England Against the germans as a Spitfire pilot to becoming a Canadian and a test pilot for avro
not to mention our engineers were employed un the us after cancellation, which led to their computer system development. take a look at the sr71 and the arrow nose on, the similarities are striking.
This plane will never be forgotten, no matter how "obsolete" it isn't. Mach 3 performance in a 1950's design is what makes this plane one of the greats. It proves that Canada can keep up.
She broke mach 2 before the whole world and had the capability of mach 3 with the Iriquas engien! (sorry for bad spelling) She is the best damn intersepter that never was! My heart broke when I read about her in history class, I was so mad, I wanted to jump back in time and beat the fuck out of Deifenbaker!
Don't let history get you down. Remember in that era there was never an on-board flight computer system before the Arrow. She was the first, be proud of Canadian engeneers, we build the bridges and pave the way for new hights. Check out the bridge between PEI and the main land, that is a huge feet of accompishment!
When Canada was a proud country... Like adm7007 stated. Well, we got Bombardier now!
ftp2leta 2 weeks ago
i live in canada, and everytime i see this magestuic plane rage fills my heart. How dare they just throw it all away, the whole fucking program
MiloMatrataMusic 3 weeks ago
With the cancellation - Canada cut off it's balls and handed them to the US.
JohnnyRock2000 2 months ago
@JohnnyRock2000 US don't want your balls. You're already barrowing our left one. J/K Seriously, I never thought about it. What would it be like if you had more indigionous military equip. The only thing I know that's orginal and made in Caanada are mountain bikes.
MavHunter20XX 2 months ago
@MavHunter20XX - Basketball, Univeral Health Care and more. Sure, we live under the US shadow, but we are the good guys and your true friend. Not like Israel, that picks your pocket and manipulates you folks into huge and costly wars. Give Israel a smack on the backside of the head, open a dialogue with the whole word. Gotta concentrate on your own country and it's overall health, or others like China and Israel will rule you.
JohnnyRock2000 3 weeks ago
@MavHunter20XX "For the past 25 years, A glorified crane has proven itself to be more like the space shuttle’s right hand – or maybe its whole right arm, capable of both heavy lifting and an incredibly delicate touch.The remote manipulator system – named Canadarm in honor of the country that built it" “It was a major breakthrough" quote from NASA website
xcaibur 2 weeks ago
@JohnnyRock2000 lol apparently we are buying them back this year. Something like 65 f-35 jets. We should have kept the plans though. It makes no sense, like building a sand castle and destroy it, accept it was a really expensive sand castle lol.
777Sarahbelle 3 weeks ago
@777Sarahbelle - It's a sad legacy. Whatever the cause, money or manipulation, John Diefenbaker will be remembered for this one sad thing. Would have been great to mothball the whole thing, not vaporize it.
JohnnyRock2000 3 weeks ago
@JohnnyRock2000
BAC TSR2, ditto.
xcaibur 2 weeks ago
makes me cry a little
ChampionStuff 2 months ago
Despite the actual footage of RL 201 taking off, this production is just friggin horrible.
mindlesspup 2 months ago
Deifenbaker listened to Eisenhowers intimidation scare tactics to scrap the aircraft. The Americans did not want the Russians and the rest of the World know what Canada had available. Thanks to Eisenhower the World got stuck with the Cold War mess. Ask US General Patton about what kind of asshole idiot Eisenhower is.
BBQFanNo1 3 months ago
@BBQFanNo1 The Arrow was in much the same position as the TSR2. Lots of potential but a long and very expensive development road. Canada as with the UK simply couldn't afford to fund it particularly as it would be a short production run. It is obviously an emotional topic for Canadians but there is also a lot of myths about what happened and why. Conspiracy theories about this can generally be disproved by reviewing documents and reports from the time. PS I don't think Ike drove Soviet policy.
completeaerogeek 3 months ago
Deifenbaker listened to American Eisenhower's bullshit threat that the Americans would not protect Canada from the Russians unless the AVRO Arrow is scrapped and dismantled.
BBQFanNo1 3 months ago
The CF-105 and the XB-70 were both great weapons of the cold war. Both were NEVER meant to go into production. They were built to make the Soviets spend billions of rubels on counter measures like the MIG-25 and other weapons systems. The cold war was fought in the wallet and not the battlefield.
peterv56 4 months ago
maybe this aircraft its best aircraft every built in CANADA and scrap for the usa
ticul032 4 months ago
@ticul032
This is getting tiresome, it was scrapped out of common sense, if your anti american bs can't get that little fact into your head how can you really look down at americans. As petev said, like the xb70 these things get canceled when they make no sense anymore.
omgwtfbbqstfu 3 months ago
Sad story.
Canada builds something great and the government destroys it.
Other countries have built many great aircraft and Canada can't have just one?
Fucking joke!
adm7007 6 months ago 6
@adm7007 THey would have stuck with it, had the program not been so expensive. That's why they cancelled the Arrow program; it simply cost too much. Unfortunately that also meant we would get stuck with second-hand Hornets, and then switch to technologically inferior F-35's in the near future. Our air force is really a joke in terms of intimidation.
MapleLeafAce 6 months ago
@MapleLeafAce CF-18 aircraft are not second hand. They were purchased new.
LeopoldPlumtree 6 months ago
@MapleLeafAce the cf 35 isnt inferior its a class -30 dBSM stealth multi role fighter carrier and v tol capable it can use more weapons and has a heavier payload it is either equal or surpasses an f 22 rapter in manouvrability and weapons payload tied in stealth wins in ability to go more places loses in speed but wins in more modern electronics an the americans backed out of the f 35 JSF program as well as the f 22 and Lockhead Martin is a multy national company not just an american company
purecanaidian 6 months ago
Best Plane EVER! Beautiful flight! I'm Canadian :D
UCCOSACCCSN 6 months ago
Stolen by russians and passed off as the MIG 25 foxbat.
booker365 8 months ago 8
@booker365 Now that is just silly. They don't even look alike...
completeaerogeek 3 months ago
@booker365
Mig-25/Arrow > much heavier, faster, one seat/two seat, 4 missiles/2 missiles, smaller in all dimensions, delta with rear wings/tailless delta. Not much in common except both were high speed jets.
52111centrumcz 2 months ago
@ Raynus Make a better one! :D
AaronsTube100 9 months ago
ROFLMAO! WTF did I just see?!?
TheTopBloke 9 months ago
the plane never exist...
Mumutkotekeling 10 months ago
@Mumutkotekeling it did, avro canada built the plane, but the usa did not approve it so they destroyed everyplane they made!
lucmitchify 10 months ago
@lucmitchify It wasn't really a matter of US approval/disapproval. The prevailing thinking (among the British, Americans, etc.) held that interceptors were going to become increasingly redundant in an age of strategic missiles. Of course the role didn't entirely disappear, but a large, expensive program to fill such a narrow role was difficult to justify.
LeopoldPlumtree 10 months ago
@LeopoldPlumtree Well the time line your talking about here the USAF was still heavly dependent on bombers to deliver nuclear wheapons ,the B52 , B58 hustler, the ICBM hadn't taken over completley yet ,the reason for the Soveit Mig 25 Foxbat high altitude Mach 2.8 all weather interceptor .
kamphwagon1 10 months ago
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@kamphwagon1 "Was still" does not mean "were going to." I said it was believed, in the late '50s, "that interceptors were going to become increasingly redundant in an age of strategic missiles." I didn't mean that age had arrived yet, just that it was projected to be coming soon, which it was. You don't spend what would today equate to billions of dollars on a weapon system you don't believe will still be relevant in several years.
LeopoldPlumtree 10 months ago
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Isn't this just the movie "Tucker" with hoseheads?
faffaflunkie 10 months ago
To the people complaining that the US arms industry killed the Arrow... please. The Canadian government killed it because they couldn't afford it. Canada built a world class aircraft, but didn't have a world class economy to pay for it. It simply made more sense economically to license-build existing designs. Same thing for the TSR. Britain's population and economy couldn't keep up with the budget demands of such world beating aircraft... which is why they went to less expensive aircraft.
DesScorp 11 months ago
@DesScorp Absolutly untrue. The final cost of the Arrow was less than the cost of the cf100. Avro built 629 CF100 aircraft at an all up cost of $780 mil. the final cost of the Arrow fully deployed for 100 Arrows was around that same figure at $660mil. consider this. That for many years we defended the north with 66 VooDoo air craft. and now are doing the same with Cf18s of around 100 planes now in service. the Arrow was built in such a fashion as to give the airframe extended sevice life...contd
mahoganyrush300 11 months ago
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raynus1 11 months ago
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raynus1 11 months ago
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@mahoganyrush300: You're low-balling the cost in an attempt to butress your 'American interference' conspiracy theories. Most verifiable estimates suggest a fly-away cost of $12M+ per airframe. Keep trying, though
raynus1 11 months ago
@DesScorp Would likely still be in service though in the more advanced forms that the company had on the drawing board. As for the tsr it is very clear far more so than with the arrow that US interference on several levels most definitly occured.
mahoganyrush300 11 months ago
@DesScorp had Canada ben left alone they would of had a market to sell..thats what killed them ..Eisenhower seen pearl habour after math and knew the rest of the war was going to be won in the air and ground he been around lot of the 101 airborne div and was sent to Washington and there was sooo many things with him and aircraft even into Korea alot of his campain funds were aircraft companys 1958 seen the start of the B-52 and world records which would of been broken and sales lost
freakyflow 10 months ago
If you want some good Documentaries on the avro arrow go here,
avhouse ca/av_005 htm
The docs' have never before seen Avro footage, from the CF 100 to the Avro Car, they got documentaries on it. Very professionally made, the dvd's look like something you would buy at HMV
superman1749 1 year ago
Canadian government fucks everything military up!!
knowpassword 1 year ago
Wow was that Prince from LEXX in the tower?
monkeyman1140 1 year ago
Agreed. It's such a shame that the script contained so many inaccuracies. The true story is just as compelling.
jrcadet4 1 year ago
As the Grandson of Jan Zurakowski I'm proud of this moment!
PinchinFilms 1 year ago 2
@PinchinFilms So you are Jans grandson, very cool. i spent some time on the phone with him when I did my research on the arrow in the early eighties. He gave me some very interesting information on the flying characteristics of the plane, a very cool guy allround.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
I wish I could have been there to see this magnificent site.
Makes me cry everytime I see this knowing the potential that was there, taken away by a dick face from Saskatchewan (my home province which I fucking HATE,btw) Diefenbaker. Then when he found that is was still wanted, he destroyed them to make himself not look like a bloody fool.
My province hails Diefenbaker as so great. I remember getting suspended from History class every time I brought up canceling the arrow.
snake2006 1 year ago
it's too bad they cancelled such a wonderful aircraft project.
link2400 1 year ago
they don't have any subdivisions so near the Toronto airport runway
areolaman 1 year ago
Reminds me of the Mig-25 Foxbat.
inhocsignovinces88 1 year ago
@inhocsignovinces88 According to the Mitrokhin Archive, the Soviets did look at the Arrow when developing the Foxbat.
VigilanteAgumon 1 year ago
@inhocsignovinces88
Few years older than the Foxbat. Foxbat was made to compete with the Arrow. Of Course the Arrow was cancelled because America, Candas neighbor , was jealous.
scarface8999 1 year ago
@scarface8999: The MiG 25 was developed to counter the XB-70 Valkyrie, a mach 3 strategic bomber.
raynus1 1 year ago
@scarface8999
Canadians: The Avro Arrow was a FAILURE, search for this video on youtube. such grievance explanations from canadians is embarrassing when you pretend you are superior to americans yet behave so childishly over such things. don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions;) the avro was one of several such planes in the running, it was not a great leap forward, and it was obsolete thanks to icbms, militarys cancel programs all the time, valkaries etc
omgwtfbbqstfu 3 months ago
@omgwtfbbqstfu Fuck you Eisenhower!
BBQFanNo1 3 months ago
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1ofDawnmist 3 months ago
@1ofDawnmist
You should think twice about calling people morons if you can't be bothered to actually read what you are replying to. The valkyrie was canceled, and obsolete from the get go, just like the arrow, which was the point. Your babbling about the accident is completely out of left field.
omgwtfbbqstfu 3 months ago
@omgwtfbbqstfu all right, I give up.
I apologize for my behavior, I will promptly remove my comment as of now.
1ofDawnmist 3 months ago
@1ofDawnmist
np
omgwtfbbqstfu 3 months ago
@1ofDawnmist The Valkyrie was not cancelled because of wingtip vorticies. Every aircraft produces these. It was an astonishing technological achievement but as a high altitude bomber, it was realised that SAM technology would be able to counter it. It was not partially stealthy as was the SR-71. There is also no evidence that F-104s could escort them. The F-104 was short ranged and could only exceed Mach 2 for a few minutes. The Valkyrie cruised at M3+ for several thousand miles.
completeaerogeek 3 months ago
Polish pilot in probably most amazing plane ever, nice.
INeedToLiveLonger 1 year ago
sr-71 or avro arrow....hmm which is cooler?....(no sarcasm intended)
kapquarfa 1 year ago
@kapquarfa To me, they're both equally sweet, in their own ways.
The only thing the SR-71 is lacking is an embarrassingly hammy made-for-TV movie of its own. :D
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago 2
@LeopoldPlumtree lol XD good point. The only thing I don't exactly like about the arrow is the fact that its shape is a little....generic. Sure it looks pretty awesome regardless but I guess that's the only downfall for me.
kapquarfa 1 year ago
@kapquarfa Oh, I wouldn't call it generic. Sure, there were other tailless deltas, but the Arrow had a very distinctive appearance. The trailing edges of the wings tapering rearward sets it apart from most other deltas. A very pretty bird.
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago
had no idea Dan Akroyd was involved with the Arrow. must be how he got his foot in the door with the blue bros. people.
Love4SK 1 year ago
Quite possibly the silliest movie ever barfed out by the CBC.
The CF-105 project deserved a much better eulogy than that rancid giggle.
raynus1 1 year ago 11
That was a great, if heartbreaking movie. Very well done.
My only problem with it was that I couldn't help but expect Dan Ackroyd to come out with something silly and funny every time he opened his mouth.
NVanWendy 1 year ago
Such a fantastic aircraft that ended up cancelled by politics and US insistence like the British TSR2
mobius1aic 2 years ago
America forced us to disarm this fantastic air craft, it is more advanced today than most military aircraft today, if we brought it back, it would be the fastest fighter in the world.
flightrulez 2 years ago
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"..it is more advanced today than most military aircraft today..."
How so?
"..if we brought it back, it would be the fastest fighter in the world..."
Really? Faster than an F-15?
raynus1 2 years ago
i'm european by the way:D
adyRadeon 2 years ago
is that why space flight in the usa was possible only by the help of german scientist?:)):))...and a lot of inventions were made by...EUROPEANS:P
usa has a lot of retards there,that go armed into schools and just kills people at random...and that happened several times in the usa if i remember corectly....so your full of everything guys...even of yourselfs:)
adyRadeon 2 years ago
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The Arrow's planned engines (never installed) weren't proven, the weapons pack was a good idea, but it wasn't even at prototype stage-no advanced avionics, no ejection seat,a primitive canopy.The addl work was prohibitively costly. No, Diefenbaker did well to cut our losses. RCAF aircrew were pleased to get the 101. Recognize the Arrow was unaffordable-hey; we got schools and health care instead-so be happy!
jimmyinablizzard1 2 years ago 4
Just to let all you know. I'm Canadian. I find Canada an extremely pathetic country. The caucasian race is going extinct due to all the foreigners here. All I can say is GO U.S.A! WOOOOOOOOOOW! USA! USA! USA! FUCK CANADA! USA! USA!
crissglitch666 2 years ago
fuck u u pathetic piece of shit! y dont u go live in the states then? u ungreatful little basterd! but let me ask u y do u hate ur country?
airplane82 2 years ago
Wow. All I can say to your retarded comment is wow. Why do I hate Canada? It's because of people like YOU. People who come into this fucking country who cant speak english, people who come here and do as they fucking please. I got a fine for telling a sand nigger merry christmas. So FUCK CANADA! GO USA! USA! USA! GOD'S LAND! USA! AMERICA!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!!
crissglitch666 2 years ago
@crissglitch666 shut up troll.
flightrulez 2 years ago
you are the troll for looking at my comment and just needing to comment on it. lmao you nerds make me laugh. seriously get a life and move out of your mothers basement.
crissglitch666 2 years ago
criss is not a canadian, he is actually a mexican - check his IP
Fromanttodugong 2 years ago
Since when was a mexican a canadian? Your IP shows you as a taco fucker.
Fromanttodugong 2 years ago
LMAOLMAOLMAOLMAOLMAO!!!! How would you know? Obviously your IP pinging skills are close to ZERO.
crissglitch666 2 years ago
Who needs to ping when a bluff is enough to upset you ;)
Fromanttodugong 2 years ago
u are gay, go learn spanish and move to usgay. cash in that clunker bitch
Riproaria9 2 years ago
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banjer4u 2 years ago 2
This movie is as embarrassing as some of the comments by Canadians on here.
Diefenbaker was more of an uninformed fool rather than a traitor. Hindsight is 20/20 and we look back on the Arrow as a 'what might have been' rather than thinking about the huge hurdles that it still had to surmount to get into squadron service.
Just leave it as it is. A great Canadian aircraft that was at least the equal to the F-4 and BAC Lightning for the role it was designed...
Propsink 2 years ago
Its funny when historians claim that the Arrow was cancelled because of bombers being obsolete with the era of ICBM's.
Well guess what, back in the 50's and 60's we had something called Electronic Counter Measures
We had the ability to jam radar systems, dazzle missile tracking systems, and this one fact on its own trashes the entire idea of the Arrow being cancelled because of bombers becomming obsolete.
The Americans wanted to dominate the Aerospace industry
mattmatt115 2 years ago
its called sputnic! and the dumbass Diefenbaker decided to scrap the arrow so he could buy American missle defence, fucking trator!
rad4life1 2 years ago
I'm Jan Zurakowski's Grandson!!
PinchinFilms 2 years ago
I'm one of the sound designers of this film. In fact,
you are the grandson of a legend!
scotgregory 2 years ago
Shame on US gov that made too pression on Canadian gov that they have to stop this program.
Avro Aircraft had to burn all the documents !
Shame on US gov that install nuclear missile in Canada to destroy soviets bomber instead of this fabulous plane. What a DCA !
With canadians civilians on the ground !
Sham on on US gov that makes the same with the fabulous TSR2 to the British gov,
Britains have to buy F111, but it was most expensive !
I hope that this never happen again !
ch307 2 years ago
why did they cancel this beauty?
xtremefxguitar 2 years ago
Outfoxed and conned by American 'experts' predicting the end of manned fighters -- Jeez, Canada threw away a perfect opportunity to take the lead in innovative supersonic fighters and provide some competition for America's aerospace industry. A terrible shame. America has sabotaged, blackmailed and subverted numerous foreign-based industries & economies around the world. Diefenbaker was outmaneuvered and lost his credibility by Kennedy for his anti-nuke and strong sovereignty position.
starmanskye 2 years ago
We brits may have bought some of these. A slim chance but there you go. We had our TSR2 cancelled so we know the pain.....
Alembic25 2 years ago
Great day for Canada back then.
pspboy7 2 years ago
It was sure was.
TK42100 2 years ago
US Policy and lobby of Us armament production has killed Canadian Arrow, and British TSR.2.
krivan2494m 2 years ago 6
@krivan2494m
See the video titled: "Canadians, the Avro was a failure". The video can be found right here on youtube, is only a few minutes long, and is an excellent insight as to how the Canadian propaganda machine has seriously led it's people astray. The US had nothing to do with the cancelation of this aircraft, or any British programs my friend.
JohnQRandom 1 year ago
@JohnQRandom I saw that video, Interview of Michael Bliss. His synopsis is erronious as is His information. The arrow was not improperly tested as a for instance. His choice of language is an example of his ignorance of the entire program. American industry greatly feared the arrow and avro canada. Ike did have some influence but takes indepth explanation.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
@mahoganyrush300
That is absolute bullshit and you know it. It seems you are getting your information about this aircraft from this rediculously, fabricated, propaganda movie shown here. The Arrow wasn't even test flown by Canadians as so wrongly depicted in the movie, and it never "buzzed" An American airforce base. The movie also fails to mention the number of "NON-Canadians " involved with its construction.
JohnQRandom 1 year ago
@JohnQRandom The test pilots were Jan Zurakowski and Spud Potocki both of polish desent Peter Cope of great britian and RCAF evaluation pilot Jack Woodman born and raised in Saskatoon. Jack was the only canadian born pilot to fly the arrow. His job was to put the plane through it's paces and was very impressed with what the air craft was able to do. Having flown the american planes he Knew the difference. The movie is 50% balogna But its like britany spears It's fluff but it's fun fluff.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
@mahoganyrush300
I know exactly who the test pilors were and the fact that they were "Polish". The F-106 served as the USAF's interceptor for many years. It was fast, versatile and had a range that met the needs to cover the entire North American continent. It is absolutely inconceivable that "jealous" Americans canceled the Arrow program, and that belief is nothing more than a scape goat for Canadians who are desperately seeking an identity. I'm sorry, I refuse to buy into it.
JohnQRandom 1 year ago
@JohnQRandom Jealous americans never cancelled the Arrow, Dief cancelled the Arrow having been persuaded by others that it was in the countries best intrest to do so. Read his memoires he talks about this issue and explains his position. Dief was misled by numerous advisors, those that new nothing of the missle age that did not exist yet and whom new nothing of the aircraft age that did. But this missle theory marched on in the minds of the powers that be and never came to fruition.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
@JohnQRandom Further to that is the knowing that america was selling planes then and still is...to us...and everyone else for that matter, up until now! To develope an airframe fire control and avionics now requires a consortium of nations to complete. The euro fighter and F35 are examples of this. WHY!! Because it costs so much. This is what killed the arrow. But it is known for an additional 50.000.000 and the cancellation charges to be paid! We could have had all the arrows the RCAF wanted.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
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@JohnQRandom Further to that is the knowing that america was selling planes then and still is...to us...and everyone else for that matter, up until now! To develope an airframe fire control and avionics now requires a consortium of nations to complete. The euro fighter and F35 are examples of this. WHY!! Because it costs so much. This is what killed the arrow. But it is known for an additional 50.000.000 and the cancellation charges to be paid! We could have had all the arrows the RCAF wanted.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
@JohnQRandom I found a site on google ADA-AVRO ARROW ARCHIVES. AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE ARE SOME INTRVIEWS WITH THE PILOTS A MUST READ.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
@mahoganyrush300
Furthermore, the Avro was an incomplete, time consuming, and expensive aircraft that no other nation wanted to buy "if" it were to ever be completed. Both the US and the UK not only had their own programs going, but the real threat were soon to be Soviet "missles", which for the most made an"interceptor" (like the Arrow) obsolete. I advise you to get your news from something other than Rick Mercer and Molson beer ads.
JohnQRandom 1 year ago
@JohnQRandom If you look at all the airplanes that the US sold to canada the brits the israelis the germans the french The dutch the belgians. And we are buying the F35 that is still not able to meet the arrows performance. The big difference between the two is that the F35 is VTOL. It is a strike fighter as opposed to an interceptor. The arrow with its removable weapons pack would easily adjust to the job being able to carry missles bombs or teddy bears if thats what you wanted.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
@JohnQRandom The arrow was built using the cook craige method of development going straight into production avoiding the prototype stage . The aircraft was ready for the RCAF beginning with arrow 206 all the airforce needed to do was decide on a weapon the American airforce offered for free. There is so much to discuss that this forum is inadequate for space If you wish I will talk to you by phone on my nickel . Just let me know here, I will give you my email you can send your # I will call.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
@krivan2494m Good Grief ! Blame the USA for British, and Canadian socialist government mistakes. Yes they should have kept building their own aircraft but their silly social programs ate up the money so they had to buy cheaper USA planes. Blame Socialism the true evil in shuting down these programs. In any event the arrow was obsolete the first time it flew. Even the F106 could out perform it.
redbaroniii 1 year ago
@redbaroniii Sorry my man but the F106 was no where near the Arrow as an aircraft. The Arrow had many specialties the F106 was of a conventional design. The Arrow just to make a few points could turn 360degrees at mach 1.5 at 2 g's without loss of speed or alttitude the 106 could not. The mk2a version with the ps13 engine would have broken all records. the thrust to wieght ratio was there the wing area was there the frictional heat defence was there. As an interceptor nothing flying today contd
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
@redbaroniii is equivalent to the Arrow. the much debated Foxbat is in that vien but could not divert the heat for sustained mach3 flight the arrow could because of the honeycomb micro balloon epoxy insulation used to control heating in the Arrow The Foxbat is very heavy by comparison. The sr71 is another airplane that could but it was unarmed as it was a spy aircraft. There is so much to know about the arrow. "Avro aircraft and cold war aviation" by Randal Whitcomb is a book you need to read.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
@mahoganyrush300: Not so. The YF-12A was armed, and predated the SR-71.
raynus1 11 months ago
@raynus1 3 yf1.2 were built it test fired six missles. Intersting fact to know is that when avro was approached in 1958 on a proposed spyplane the specs of the then secret skunk works aircraft were shown to jim floyd his answer was that the arrow fit that requirement but would need refueling in the air the americans were shocked . read the arrow by less wilkinson. stainless steel was the proposed metal for future arrows. that would have been employed in critical areas of heat.
mahoganyrush300 11 months ago
@raynus1 The arrow structure in mk3 arrow included airframe air conditioning (which temprature control failure nearly froze zura in one flight) epoxy micro baloon insulation and other exotic metals in heat critical areas to control heating. you also had in the arrow the issue of heat a tempting to expand the wing and fuel in the wing trying to cool the structure changing the aerodynamics of the wing. these issues were ocercome by designing the air foil to compnsate for these changes.
mahoganyrush300 11 months ago
@mahoganyrush300 "The arrow structure in mk3 arrow included..."
"Would have included" or something along those lines would be more like it. It was, after all, what you'd like to call a "paper airplane."
LeopoldPlumtree 11 months ago
@LeopoldPlumtree you must not forget that the Arrow was a developemental aircraft that would bypass all the miss givings that developed with the cf100.until the mkV. By the time rl 327 roled off the line we may have seen a radically different airframe. As for being a paper airplane that would be false to say. The F106c was because the company had no plans to develope the airframe any farther. It was a political ploy by political people and had nothing really to do with convair. Avro continued
mahoganyrush300 11 months ago
@LeopoldPlumtree -on the other hand, had every intention of forging ahead with the planes development. The science is there the materials had been ordered and were on hand and in the processing stage. There was a lot going on in that factory no one knows about. For instance the ideas behind putting a man in space was already hatching in jim chamberlins mind. A super sonic transport was drawn up and ready for presentation to any who may be interested.read the jetliner by Jim Floyd, good stuff!!!
mahoganyrush300 11 months ago
@LeopoldPlumtree I also would like to hear from you what your thoughts are on a new fighter for Canada I asked raynus the same question I would like to know what your thoughts are as well.
mahoganyrush300 11 months ago
@mahoganyrush300 I've stated somewhere before I'm not entirely convinced of the F-35 would be the best solution for Canada, especially given the costs. I'm not even close to being an expert analyst on these matters, but it seems to me that the philosophy behind the F-35's A2A capability is predicated on the notion it'll never allow any situation to degrade to within visual range. Not sure how well that'll work in the real world. The close company of an Su-27/30/35 might be nerve wracking.
LeopoldPlumtree 11 months ago
@LeopoldPlumtree Good day Sir! I found a very interesting video on youtube. Isreal and US to develope modern Arrow three missle defence. What is most interesting is an F15 taking off wearing 2 of these anti Icbm missles under wing. the appearance of the aircraft so equiped, Is chillingly similar to the Avro proposal from 1959 out lined in whitcombs books COLD WAR TECH WAR and AVRO CANADA AND COLD WAR AVIATION A must read for guys like you Raynus and myself. Enjoy the books and video.
mahoganyrush300 10 months ago
@raynus1 the spyplane was proposed first the interceptor idea later. under the guise that an interceptor flying out of area 51 would not seem then unusual. A look into Lyndon Johnsons papers hint at this. we do know he announced the existance of the yf12 in 1963 the proposal itself was cancelled in 64 but continued flying for research. What kind who knows. the sr71 and the arrow are in many ways comparable aircraft both handling the same difficult problems in different ways migs25 & 31 also.
mahoganyrush300 11 months ago
@raynus1 As for the Arrows cost see Fred Smyes book on line. he was president of avro at the time. the book is called Canadian aviation and The Avro ARROW. he gives the real figures and he was the one whom really new. I was surprised at how close my own figures were. While I have your ear, that, of another aviation enthusiast. Give me your take on Canada buying a new fighter jet. Is the f35 the right kind of aircraft for Canada I favor the F18 super hornet. I would like to here your thoughts.
mahoganyrush300 11 months ago
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raynus1 11 months ago
@mahoganyrush300: Doubtful. The CF-105 still utilized aluminum alloy machined wing skins. Aircraft designed for sustained flight at mach 3 required stainless steel, inconel, or titanium skin panels. The A-12/SR-71 required expansion-gapped corrugated titanium panels. The XB-70 required a massive freon cryogenic heat-exchanger assembly to cool the interior, as well as cooled 'wet walls' around the landing gear and drag chute bays.
raynus1 11 months ago
@krivan2494m Canada and Britain belong as an empire. The US armament production should've been completely ignored.
DJonX7 11 months ago
Just finished a biog on Zura, the Arrow test pilot and WW2 ace.
Like the TSR2, the CF105 was way ahead of it's time and US technology ( - fly by wire aspects would not be matched until the Airbus or even later F16.)
BUT did it make economic sense? Without the US huge tax revenue- Not so sure.
Canada lost expertise and 14000 jobs but the key people were headhunted by NASA to lead the space program. Though the US paid the bill Canada should be as pound of Apollo as Von Braun's Germany.
Sqdrn1 2 years ago
The North American A-5 Vigilante, which first flew in 1958 as well, had fly-by-wire.
raynus1 2 years ago
You should see Malton now.
Aggiechilds 2 years ago
best looking plane.
noobkamal 2 years ago
Great plane....oh yeah 75% of the players on your american hockey teams are canadians get over it americans can't play hockey
Chad00202 2 years ago
Beautiful, innovative aircraft. A shame what happened to it. A bigger shame that partial blueprints were later found in a Russian archive. Apparently Avro had a mole problem.
And I notice people are blaming the Americans for its demise. Partial blame must rest with the Diefenbaker government, along with controversial (and bullshit) reports from American and British "experts" predicting the end of the manned fighter.
ev8d8 3 years ago 2
Damn that fucking John Diefenbaker! What a stupid ass hole! He is without a doubt Canada's biggest and most embarrassing mistake!
deksam101 3 years ago 2
I love reading comments from Canadians.They can watch a video about anything and yet their comments always reflect their envy for the USA.Priceless.
goonercrew08 3 years ago
i gues that caue we all pised that we let our airforce lead over u guys fall
callum3069 2 years ago
Im sorry,I dont understand what it is your trying to say.Try english.
goonercrew08 2 years ago
thats cause* my bad lmao
callum3069 2 years ago
You mean you're, not your. try english. fag
fords12345 2 years ago
Try using capital letters when beginning a sentence.
goonercrew08 2 years ago
My fuck, I bet you have a masters in English. Get bent.
fords12345 2 years ago
Your fuck alright.Loser.
goonercrew08 2 years ago
don't confuse envy with dislike. P.S hockey is a Canadian sport and Americans still get there ass whipped by Canadians every Christmas.
supertestII 2 years ago 2
Thanks for letting America have 24 of your 30 NHL teams.
goonercrew08 2 years ago
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snazzy099 2 years ago
your welcome for supplying something like 50% of the NHL's players.. The U.S. will never compete with Canada's hockey superiority.
snazzy099 2 years ago
thanks for the money! :)
freakyflow 2 years ago
i thought it was a mig 23 for a sec there
Pauln2008 3 years ago
Nice --- but there was no female engineer --- no offence.
hcanuck7 3 years ago
Canada is what the U.S could have been if it have outlawed slavery out right, not have killed all the Indians, had abandoned their ridiculous racism,had seen the glory of socialism and hadn't developed nuclear weapons and wagged it's finger at Russia. Also, McGill beats the shit out of Berkeley, Chalk River beats Los Alamos-I wish I had the money to move!!!! Fuck Hey Canadian white women!!
titowasagoodman1980 3 years ago
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ev8d8 3 years ago
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ev8d8 3 years ago
fucken sad that we make advanced fighters and the states makes up blow them up
hemsky911 3 years ago
Then the Americans wonder why everybody shits on them. This is one of the reasons why. Man why can't us Canadians make a more modern version now? Guess we'll get forced to buy some expired US goods this time.....
Eurosubstance 3 years ago
I hear we're getting F-35's. And avro has a shit load more designs including a plane that didn't had a need for a rudder
serento50 2 years ago
Even the pilot of the arrow Came along way..Forced out of poland in the war to fighting back in England Against the germans as a Spitfire pilot to becoming a Canadian and a test pilot for avro
timberwolf7102james 3 years ago
not to mention our engineers were employed un the us after cancellation, which led to their computer system development. take a look at the sr71 and the arrow nose on, the similarities are striking.
Allenw01101986 3 years ago
This plane will never be forgotten, no matter how "obsolete" it isn't. Mach 3 performance in a 1950's design is what makes this plane one of the greats. It proves that Canada can keep up.
F22RaptorSquadron 3 years ago
keep up? u mean exceed and leave everything behind!!!!
triniphoenix007 3 years ago
damnnnnnnnnnn,,,what a beauty
march25opel 3 years ago
She broke mach 2 before the whole world and had the capability of mach 3 with the Iriquas engien! (sorry for bad spelling) She is the best damn intersepter that never was! My heart broke when I read about her in history class, I was so mad, I wanted to jump back in time and beat the fuck out of Deifenbaker!
rad4life1 3 years ago
If only that were possible :(
kuro123 3 years ago
Don't let history get you down. Remember in that era there was never an on-board flight computer system before the Arrow. She was the first, be proud of Canadian engeneers, we build the bridges and pave the way for new hights. Check out the bridge between PEI and the main land, that is a huge feet of accompishment!
rad4life1 3 years ago
Yeah, you're right :). Crossing that bridge takes quite a bit, it's awsome. I just wish that the Arrow wasn't canceled... D:
kuro123 3 years ago
me too, I love her with all my heart!
rad4life1 3 years ago
Amen :)
kuro123 3 years ago
she definately would have blown the v22 raptors outa the air
triniphoenix007 3 years ago
correction f22 raptors...was thinkin honda there for a second
triniphoenix007 3 years ago