David Foster Wallace on Commercial literature and reading

[ouroboros98]

beautiful, gifted man. I could listen to him for hours. It seems that in his final days, he had begun to feel that his literary style had become a gimmick and lost its vitality. I would only say that Infinite Jest is the most ambitious book I have ever read, and if the style became a gimmick in the end, it was worth it for this work alone.

[MouseEars32]

But you do know!



[TheChap36]

I just hate when people tell me "I don't have time to read." Fucking make time to read, assholes! Or, "Reading is gay." Hmm, I didn't know reading had a brain to necessitate a sexual preference. Go live your dull life and fuck off somewhere else. Jerkoffs.

[8644371]

@GreenNiagara If we just patiently watched the change unfold before us, we'd understand the world a lot better.

[8644371]

@GreenNigara "Do you honestly think it would be easier to express the principles of capitalism in a film?"

I think that we could understand capitalism a lot better without another mind imposing its narrative. That would be brilliant. Just as it is. Meetings. Skyscrapers. Private schools. Colleges. Government buildings. Government meetings. Just as it is.

Observing the subjects be subjective and observing the objects be objective. No narrative. Just as is. We could learn a lot that way.

[8644371]

A diagram of an atom contains shapes of probability magnitudes and linear algebra equations and symbols.

And sure: there are captions.

And I think an actual hi-def picture of a beaver dam would contain MUCH MUCH more information than a paragraph of how a beaver dam is constructed. Like I said: the imagination of nature is so much more than the imagination of man.

Words can never fully capture reality. That hi-def picture though: that captures A LOT more than that man could in his paragraph.

[GreenNiagara]

@8644371 This "hi-def picture" may show more information, but how much would be relevant? I don't give a shit about the trees in the background, dude. Specificity and clarity are two more strengths of the written word.

Not knocking movies, or pictures, or anything like that. But your narrow-minded view of "getting across information" is simplistic in the extreme. There are many ways to express ideas, observations, whatever. Depending on the circumstance, some are best suited to written mediums.

[8644371]

@GreenNiagara How do you know that those trees don't have an important thing to do with that dam. What if The trees behind that dam are different. (Not likely, bu what if?) That'd mean that beavers would be favoring a different tree that's not at that body of water. An now it gets interesting. And a puzzle emerges. And we have to imagine what has happened.

You then don't a have a narrator doing the thinking for you and it kind of becomes fun to imagine.

[GreenNiagara]

@8644371 You're reaching now. The fact is that a paragraph describing the dam, the inner workings of the dam, and how the dam is constructed will, in 999 out of a thousand cases, be much more useful re. the dam than a picture of the scene, "hi-def" or not. Who's being all abstract now?

By the way, this hypothetical paragraph can be as objective as a picture. How exactly would a flat description of the dam be "doing the thinking" for me?

[hghbunger927]

@8644371 This is the dumbest argument among probably smart people I have ever seen. Reading breeds imagination, I thought if nothing else everyone understood that, the setup takes a little more work, but having a narrator shouldn't invalidate any of the side pleasure that you as a reader get out of it.

Your right on certain counts, there is no reason to use big words when you don't have to, that stuff does piss me off, but many words do more than describe, they carry an implicit feeling.

[8644371]

@GreenNiagara Experiment (or experience) is only what brings knowledge.

Getting dirty in the mess brings knowledge. Sitting by your window-sill reading a book only brings theory (or idea). Reading books doesn't even get close to the real thing (reality). By reading: You only stay in the comfortable recesses of your arbitrary abstractions from that book. And your mind is the easiest thing to fool: for the imagination of man is so much less than the imagination of nature (reality).

[GreenNiagara]

@8644371 Well, okay. I mean, "probability magnitudes and linear algebra equations" would make for quite a complex diagram of a simple atom, but whatever. Besides, that further undermines your point- what is that picture without those written clarifications? I'll tell you: worthless.

Sure, much of literature is concerned with ideas. What is so wrong with that? Ideas are the foundation of everything we do. Do you honestly think it would be easier to express the principles of capitalism in a film?

[8644371]

@GreenNiagara Ask yourself this: What contains more information: a diagram of an atom, or a textbook definition of an atom? (People who try to learn chemistry by only reading from the text frustrate me. If knowing the name of a thing doesn't constitute knowledge of that thing, then how would reading a series of names about that thing provide knowledge of that thing? It's the diagrams, the math, the imagination, of that thing that creates an idea—and only an idea—of that thing.

[GreenNiagara]

@8644371 A diagram of an atom would likely include (written) captions. Rather, ask yourself this: What contains more information, a picture of a beaver dam or a paragraph discussing the construction of said dams?

That kind of analogy is worthless. "Information" is not a monolith. Certain ideas, certain plots, certain voices cannot be adequately expressed in a visual medium. Look at Pynchon's Mason & Dixon - part of the fun is the 18th century diction, which could not be duplicated in a movie.

[8644371]

@GreenNiagara I disagree right back at you.

People in the reader community (to me) over-esteem words. Pictures contain more information than words. Sounds contain more information than word. Taste contains more information than words.

Readers fall into the same trap that I did. Readers forget that there's a difference between knowing the name of something and actually knowing something. They think the other way. They think that a word is this glorious enigma saturated with truth.

[8644371]

And they philosophize. And they reason with words.

Basically: What I see is this: The reader community elevates the word to a higher value than I feel it is. They learn tons and tons and tons of words: most of them redundant repetitions of other words that mean the same fucking thing. Like vituperate. And fulminate. And vociferate. And diatribe. And on and on and on.

And when they use an arcane (or polysyllabic) word, and the listener doesn't understand the word, the reader feels superior.

[GreenNiagara]

@8644371 Seems to me like you walked into a Creative Writing 101 class and generalized about the literary community from there. Read Stephen King's On Writing. His first piece of advice? Put down the thesaurus and simplify.

[GreenNiagara]

@8644371 That's a gross oversimplification. Right now I'm reading Chuck Palahniuk's Haunted. I'd challenge you to envision a filmed version of that story. Seriously, good luck. And if nothing else, books can push the envelop further that visual media (this is entirely coincidental, but Palahniuk actually includes a postscript discussing this very concept).

There are things words can do that pictures cannot. Have fun with Infinite Jest: The Movie. Actually, that would be hilarious.

[MetricStarDestroyer]

I love how he can say something absolutely incredible then end it with 'I don't know' as if he hasn't completely nailed it. What an amazing guy he was.

[8644371]

This guy is a pussy.

Seriously: reading novels isn't all that it's cut out to be. Movies are more efficient. They contain more information. And you don't get as many pompous people in the audience. (You know who I'm talking about: the assholes who think they're superior because they use words like ameliorate instead of fix.)

Besides, if you want to imagine interesting and crazy things, quantum physics takes the cake.

[8644371]

But that requires math, and likely those who are among the "reader" community started reading because they sucked at math.

You can get away with arbitrariness with reading. You can't get away with it in math.

Seriously: this guy bitches too much.

[GreenNiagara]

@8644371 I disagree. Sure, there are advantages to movies. This hardly invalidates literature. Off the top of my head, in books the narrator (even if s/he's omniscient) takes a more active- or at least more distinct- role in the story. Books are more intimate, they're like a conversation, and unsurprisingly, this is something that celebrated writers like DFW, Pynchon, and even the more skilled "commercial" writers like King take advantage of.

[Savorist]

David Foster Wallace is Kurt Cobain. Jonathan Franzen is Dave Grohl. Your high school English teacher is Krist Novoselic.

[anthonydc50]

@Savorist Don't hold the image of Franzen as the lesser talent who writes more accessible stuff. Reread Freedom, it does things that Wallace wasn't capable of.

[Savorist]

Nothing wrong with accessibility. I just read with awe when I read DFW, like I'm witnessing a large Renaissance painting. With Franzen, I feel spoken to by an older brother. There's less reckless abandon, more steering, more caluclation... Be honest with yourself, my friend, he could not write Infinite Jest (yeah, yeah, DFW could never write Freedom, yada yada... it's opinion, my friend).

[anthonydc50]

@Savorist Obviously you're welcome to whatever opinions you like, it just seemed from your first post that you were putting DFW and Franzen into the lazy categories I myself put them in before paying closer attention to each. They are trying to do very different things, and I say that not as an empty cliche. Here's a potentially disturbing question for you: which do you think is most similar to Kafka?

[Savorist]

Jonathan Franzen always looks down when he talks. DFW always looks up when he talks. That difference is palpable in their writing.

[comoescribirunlibro]

Great author and great interview: breathtaking...

[mattsspats]

truely heartbreaking to have lost him. Just read a passage in Infinite Jest where he is describing depression, clearly his depression and his suffering was so profound, all the more profound because of his ability to articulate it.

[howeuth]

I need to have money to understand the abstract. I need to have a big bank account to appreciate literature. I need to have a useless BA to have intelligence. I need to use spell check to spell intelegence and literater. I need silence to be human.

[Forehead2Brick]

It's hard for me to imagine him without his bandana.

[mateo3470]

ADD

[carbine125]

Voice sounds reminded me of James Ellroy. Different of course and kinda soothing.

[scrumpyJ5]

He's so right about quietness. I think Chuck Palahniuk says in one his novels one time that there is nowhere in American culture that can have real silence anymore. We're always on the move, always looking for more instants... I'm gonna start making more of an effort to spend less time on the laptop or on electronics, and more time reading or just in silence. I'm not one of those people who spends endless time online or watching TV already, but I feel my attention span draining away sometimes.

[Slntb]

@scrumpyJ5

That's from lullaby.

[telephilia]

One of the great minds of his generation. He will be missed.

[TommyTomato93]

@Blunic I know what you mean about him sort of deviating into random tangents when he talks, but I think if you watch the interview a second time, you can start to understand where he's going and he makes some great points. That there's a kind of dichotomy between serious and commercial art wherein those who appreciate the latter are fulfilled, but not intellectually stimulated, while those who appreciate the latter are gratified in a complicated but saddening way.

[TommyTomato93]

i want to give him a hug

[motzke08]

Wow, he has such an pleasant voice, I could listen for hours.

[maankindj]

humans

please

live beyond, i am struggling with it myself

but it's important i think

not guess, think

sincerely

[bbasement]

@maankindj

That is beautiful! You write that?

[maankindj]

@bbasement yep, thanks!

[itpduder]

Give a guy enough rope. . . .

[seawall3]

Rest in peace. Very sad for the world to lose such an interesting mind.

[anthonydc50]

@Blunic I think you probably could prove it, but he's talking here about deep stuff that you can't really quantify. I just know that when I surf online or watch TV I'm giving into an urge to escape the fact that I am alone, that I am the only person inside my quiet, slowly mentating head. It's like I want to abandon myself and be embraced by something that will accept this abandonment and comfort me. I'm English, but my guess is that most TV and internet users feel similarly.

[royalaxation]

@thisisgrey Let's not get too self-righteous here. The intellectual is unequivocally also the American shopper. Unless the intellectual is living entirely off the land, making her own clothes from hemp or hide, brushing her teeth with an elk hair toothbrush and eating chipmunk chili, she's still a shopper. Hell, Hank Thoreau – that most "self-sufficient" of American intellectuals – and his bro John practically introduced shopping to Concord. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

[CastleRockFan]

@Blunic Nonsense? How so? (I ask this in a non-belligerent way, mind you. I just think he's making good points at the end, and would like to better understand why you disagree.)

[xslumlordx]

He expresses such a baseless and pretentious opinion I can't tell if he's kidding.

[CastleRockFan]

@xslumlordx Elaborate.

[biglardass]

Miss you, pal.

[septip123]

2:20 - that's it. Brilliant, brilliant.

[brothamouzoune]

@septip123 when he said that a wave of something washed over me, like clarity of lucidness or something. There aren't really words for what it was: It was a truly perfect description. Perfect (n) excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, accurate, exact, or correct in every detail. This is what that was.

[prrrrecious]

I have the same dilemma. There are many things I want to write but am afraid no one will read because they don't include a zombie ensemble or family of vampires. Sometimes I think I was born a little too late. Sometimes I think we're headed for a de-evolution or in the midst of one. The idea of bending into the numbed region of popular culture deeply hurts.

[ZachClooney]

@prrrrecious I know exactly how you feel. And I too feel gloomy about the future of readership for literature with a capital 'L'. Born a little too late? May be. But we still have the time to make an impact. Writers like DFW's friend Franzen do make a difference among the cultured masses. You have to write what you have to write, not what you think might get a big readership like Twilght.

[brothamouzoune]

@prrrrecious I feel your pain aswell. There are others like you.

[ZachClooney]

Thank you so much for uploading these DFW interviews. These are so precious.

[Super8StrikesBack]

Great interview now go and read Infinite Jest!

[8644371]

Shit. I've been thinking along the same exact theme these past 3 months.

[jakkelyd]

Thanks for this upload!

[thisisgrey]

well, the guy hung himself. Guess that's not a good argument agains quiet.

[Artzineonline]

@thisisgrey Thanks for commenting. Mr. Wallace bravely prospered as a writer, DESPITE a debilitating illness. He tragically succumbed to this illness, but I'm sure he never capitulated on any of his convictions.

[thisisgrey]

@Artzineonline I was discussing with a friend how the pursue of deepness can lead to angst and how the pursue of superficiality never leads to angst. What do you think?

[Artzineonline]

@thisisgrey "It is unimaginably hard to do this, to stay conscious and alive, day in and day out." -DFW Superficiality, I suppose is a way out of this responsibility. His novel Infinite Jest illustrates this point. The Novel is "deep" but it's also FUN to read, so the answer, I imagine, is to try to reach a balance of both.

[septip123]

@thisisgrey everyone can be depressed : the intellectual and the american shopper.

[Outthereandback]

@thisisgrey Life forces a consistent oscillation between degrees of both--this is the idealists permanent dilemma. Nonetheless, I agree with you in large part, the polarity is striking--indifferent contentment at the enormity of life or being crushed and alienated through it.

[bunkopaniczny]

@thisisgrey Well i can say this: i've pursued both 'deep' and 'superficial' works. And personally; i've found BOTH can lead to either pleasure or angst. For instance pursuing 'superficiality' can lead one to wake up one day with: "What the hell have i done with my existence?" and wind up with angst. On the other hand I've pursued 'deep' work (art/literature/film) and came away with a feeling of great pleasure & accomplishment. And vice/versa. I think "Artzineonline' is correct: 'balance'?

[FreezerKing]

@Artzineonline In the disease of depression, you understand the distortions it is making in your reality but you still can't get around them. This makes the depression even worse.

It's a wonder he lasted so long.

[spooner1957]

@thisisgrey if you're gonna write about a writer killing himself show some respect and use proper language.

clothes are hung

people are hanged

[thisisgrey]

@spooner1957 ups, sorry. English is my second language.

[spooner1957]

@thisisgrey my apologies. i thought you were tryin to be clever ha. but now you know one of those weird little things about the english language!

[samthewaggon]

@thisisgrey

well, the guy HANGED himself...

[bigshleigh]

logic for teh win

[coolpiza]

God, he was so, so, so, so, so smart.