I can't find any sources for specific grosse messer techniques (but they might be out there somewhere). So I think you have to be clever here. Look at dussack techniques and techniques for the langes messer, to learn about messer fighting. Also look at longsword techniques for the use of a two handed sword and more on the use of the cross guard. I would also recomend you to look at katana techniques because the two weapon are so similar.
@gurkfisk89 I make no claim to be an expert, but didn't Talhoffer write a manual on grosse Messer fighting? I know somewhere in the past I have seen drawings and instructions of grosse Messer techniques.
I know he has the kind of lages messers we see in this clip. But idk about the grosse messer (the two handed version). I'm no expert either so there may be one. If you ever come across the drawings or instructions again, please send me a PM.
@ThePowerExcess The CS grossemesser is IIRC a two handed "kriegsmesser" type weapon, right? In that case, it's used just like a longsword. You can even strike with the back edge... some were sharpened for a bit of their length, and if not, you can still generate sufficient impact with a blunt back edge.
The "Gross Messer" today usually refers to a messer style weapon, the length of a long sword ~4 ft long. Langes Messer refers to these types of weapons.
I got a question: is it better, when holding the blade with two hands, to swing with the blade perpendicularly, so to avoid having your fingers/palm cut as the weapon makes an impact?
@wamken619 Proper attacks will keep your hands relatively safe regardless of angle. However, rising attack are risky as they tend to leave your head open unless done as a "zwerchhau". Depending on the stance your opponent uses, you will use certain attacks that will cut off as much of his counter-attacks as possible.
When I first saw the words "Langes Messer" I was like "That's the gayest name I've ever heard". And then I actually watched some videos and realized "DAMN, that thing looks like a mini Buster Sword!"
Just thought this information might be of interest to some folks watching this video. HANWEI is going to produce a production made PRACTICAL LANGMESSER. I have seen pictures of the prototype and it looks very nice. It has a blunt tip and edge. I was excited to find all of this out so thought I would share. I have been hoping for something like this to come out for quite some time.
Oh and by the way if you study old Lawbooks from back in the day,... well lets say authoritys didnt respond kindly to some 3'rd class low life Joe Sixpack handling a sword. In some places you got hanged on the next tree when you where eyebaling a weapon. Using techniques like those in the video against upper class people got you in all sorts of troubles (hanging for example :) and even regular citiziens had to pay heavy compensation fees if they cut someone an Arm or two :).
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Many people are wondering about the Sword grabbing. Well there is no reason to deny it but European common Swords where pretty crappy back in the days. It was more about beating the other guy than actuall cutting. The Better Swords on the other Hand where extremly expensive (like a luxury car for example) and therefore most Common people (if they somehow got a weapon at all which was not normal) used garbage cause they simply couldnt afford a decent sword.
Okay, I'm looking to actually make a few swords. I've the knowledge, materials, and ability. My trouble arises from the choice between a Falchion or a Langes Messer.
Anyone with some background want to put in a few words of debate for either/or?
The main difference to my eye is the tip of the blade- curved, or straight.
@maulex18 ein sax ist gerade und relativ kurz, eine machete ist bei der spitze meist breiter als beim heft (prinzip wie bei einer keule/axt), und das lange messer ist praktisch die europäische antwort auf das katana
can you tell me where do you get those messer? ive actually been hunting a good one for a while now and cant find one i really like, can you help point me please?
@EHSPP16 Groups like the HEMA Alliance and the WMA Coalition can help you find a group near you. They're both good associations and they work closely with each other. Most major cities have a group or two like this.
What's the difference between a falchion and a messer? is it just much shorter and more seax-like? I noticed some them in the Talhoffer pictures have allmost no quillions.
@300warrior300 From what I've read, they're pretty much identical. The main difference is the pommel. Messer has a displaced curving pommel, like those on scimitars and falchion is often equipped with the apple form pommel.
@300warrior300 I do believe it is the entire hilt construction. Namely, messers have the slab construction with rivets (like a large kitchen knife handle) and falchions typically have a standard cruciform sword hilt. The blades of both weapons vary a lot, and many share almost identical blade shapes from what I've seen.
@rehwr that is partially due to the fact that there are only so many ways to use a weapon similar to this and the fact that people in the Philippines(avid machete users) were introduced to European swordplay by the Spanish and learned quite a bit from them they then incorporated it into their fighting systems before they used it and sticks to kick the Spanish off their islands the moral is if you are going to oppress someone do not teach them cool ways to fight first
Traditionally I have always loved Sabers as my prefered weapon but the more I see and research of Messers, the more I am becoming a convert. Finding a source of messers in Australia is tough let alone finding instruction. Any ides on where to go from here?
Another great video! Entertaining, and very educational!
I love the comments on half-swording and gripping the blade. I guess having a blunt back of the blade would help that, thus making it doable with a scottish backsword.
The opinion that one is able to grip a *sharp* blade provided pressure is put on the flat not the edge is very interesting, though a little difficult to envisage. Sounds like something one should practice slowly with a good partner!
I learned quite a few of these techniques from FMA, but they are taught as if they are unique to FMA when in actuality they also occurred in Europe. Good stuff.
@elgostine I don't see a reason why messer techniques can't be used with an arming sword as well, in fact, some techniques would be more suitable with it (false edge striking).
@Ranziel1 the reason im asking is that, im trying to find the european counterpart to the chinese jian, i thought it was rapier, but its often been described as being a cut aand thrust sword, aso i figured 1 handed swords like the henry V sword and other such blades, might be a close analogue and wanted to see a comparison of techniques.
@elgostine though these guys would be interesting to see up against a guy with a chinese dao as the dao perforns roughly the same functions in a fight i.e a singel edged hacker and chopper
btw im not looking for an ultimate 'whoes better' but i want to get an idea of how cultres took to various weapons
sehr nette techniken hab grade erst angefangen am langen messer zu arbeiten geföllt mir sehr gut. wäre mal interessant nen ernsthaftes sparring zu sehen
Just one little thing, when using halfsword let the messer lead and not you elbow. Furthermore i really loved it, awesome techniques and also the introcate ones looked very simple.
Fantastic! I love these videos, keep them coming! Its a shame that these fight manuals dont exist further back in time it would be brilliant to see similar things for saxon or norman fighting methods.
Indeed. However, given the similarity of swordsmanship from around the globe, we can with some reasearch at least get an idea of how it might have been done. Take a look at the videos of the group Hammaborg here on youtube for their interpretations on earlier fighting styles.
@Kunstdesfechtens: That's not correct. The Messer is part of a development of weapons with riveted handles coming up in the late middle ages. The "Bauernwehr" and many other weapons are part of the same family. There is no direct development from the Sax to the Messer, the only parallel is that they both are single-edged. I have studied those weapons some years and own a few original pieces myself. Sorry for bad English, would like to discuss it in German any time.
I've been practicing and studying and teaching rapier and cut and thrust fencing for 14 years...and I learn something EVERY time I watch you guys. I have to hate you out of jealousy!
@TheRealGladiatores I have not read the text myself but another interperitation of the technique at 1:16 that i have seen is to go for the halfsword stab and if he avoids it by stepping back you can follow up with the mordschlag(don't know if its the same term in longsword and messer). Just another option you guys might consider. I love all the vids you guys do btw.I find them very helpful.:)
@TheRealGladiatores its a great technique against an armoured opponent. The beat of the hilt sends shockwaves through plate armour and can even fracture bones underneath.
Why? You don't (and didn't) always want to kill or maim your opponent! Let's say that this is someone in your village who has had too much to drink and has gone berserk at the barn dance. It would be a terrible idea to kill him, he's married to your cousin, you would be prosecuted, his brother would want revenge, there would be no end of trouble.
So just knock him out instead. Good idea to train techniques for that type of situation as well.
Well, you'd be better of using your fists... or a chair for that, not a sharp sword. But maybe, who knows. A strike like that could a crack a skull though, not the safest way to put down your drunk relative.
@authordragonbreath Cutting edges rely on friction and motion to cut unless its a scalpel, in order to cut without a sliding motion you need the blade to come down with speed and *Hack*. I have myself tried using the pommel and guard of a hand & half sword to strike a table and as long as there is no friction and sliding you wont get cut, besides even thin gloves would protect against bruises if the technique is done properly.
There's no reason you can't grab a very sharp blade; any chef can tell you that. Halfswording (or half-messering) doesn't require a blunt blade. Just don't let it slip.
I have a machete sharp enough to obliterate brush (and cut my thumb while touching up :x ), but I can easily grip the blade with my undersized hands and hit things with it -- no damage done!
European swords were blunt-sharp. Which means only the tip was really sharp, middle was somewhat sharp and bottom and shoulder were often blunt. Besides, you should be grabbing the blade by flats. not the edge.
Also known as battle blunt or a variety of other names. A sword that's too sharp at the edges will tend to nick and break, whereas one that won't cut you just by running your finger along it can still be plenty sharp enough to take your head off.
Toll zusammengestelltes Video, Gute Kämpfer, gute Technik, Musik passt, schnitt is gut: vor allem aber einen Respekt an den Kameramann! Diese Dynamik mit Winkel, Bewegung und Zoom bei perfekter Quadrierung sieht man nich so oft bei dieser Art Videos. Klasse Truppe!
Plate armor was rare. It was a comlicated device that is a masterpiece by itself.
It was used in one-on-one fights, such as judical duels, between two nobles that could afford such armor. Those likely wouldn't fight with messers though, since it was considered a cheap weapon for common men.
And why can't you see an advantage of armor is a duel? It's like in every other fight - increased protection and advantage in grappling.
In your example the power would be much greater, besides, the cut would be already made and the axe would just push pieces to the sides, breaking the remaining joint.
Try grabbing a kitchen knife hard with you hand, of course it will be painful and you will likely recieve a shallow cut, but it's a good price for defeating your opponent.
Well, yes you're certainly right; however, let's keep in mind these tricks were meant to be performed with gloves on... the typical gloves at the time would've been a very tough fire-hardened leather. While plate armour was the distinctive style, I really doubt it would've been put to any use in one-on-one duelling.. I can't see any advantage, hah.
Is is entirely possible to half-sword barehanded as shown in the video. Plate armour was often used in duels between knights. Heck, historical fencing manuals show people wearing full plate but no gloves or gauntlets of any kind. :)
leather+fire=burnt useless leather. You may be thinging of boiled leather, in which case it would not be a glove but hard glove shapped peiaces of leather sewn together. Hardened leather is not very flexible. Their leather gloves would be no thicker than our modern leather gloves.
No, the method is to soak the leather in water or oil and turn it by a fire, thus making it rigid and hold shape. The same effect is seen if you simply leave leather in nature exposed to the elements; it is rained-on and then stiffened by the heat of the sun.
Real leather is fire resistant (note: I said resistant, not proof. It'll still melt & shrivel under extreme heat, but a small flame will not harm it.)
There're various degrees of hardness a leather glove or other leather wear can be hardened to. And leather gloves can be made extremely thick, through many layers. Only the outermost layer & only the part covering the backs of the palms, as well as over the backs of fingers (but not the joints, so as to keep the glove flexible), is hardened to the effect of having the stiffness of a shell.
As long as the blade doesn't slip, you won't get cut. Cuts are created by impact and "draw-cutting", not by gripping. You _might_ get cut superficially, but think of the callouses you'd have on your hands from training swords for several hours every day since childhood. Worst case scenario, you've got a deep paper-cut like wound, and he's got his skull caved in. Fair trade in my book. :)
Gloves, gaunlets etc.... Callouses? I don't think so. Try holding a blade like that and bash on something like they do in this vid. and callouses or not, you will get cut, even if the blade doesn't slip it will still move in your hand and wedge. Think of chopping wood when the axe is already stuck in the wood and you bash it down to split it apart.
The manuals consistently show half-swording with bare hands. Modern researchers have done it: From the ARMA forum: "I can grab my sharpened sword ("chisel sharp") in the middle of the blade and thrust at a suspended car tire or switch to halfsword from a "florysh" and do a mortschlag at the same tire with serious power. No gloves needed. What keeps my fingers from coming off is a) Excerting pressure on the flats of the blade, not the edges and b) not sliding along, but keeping a firm grip"
I have a grosse Messer and it is the finest sword I've ever handled. I would like to know some techniques used with that type of blade, as it's about twice as long and probably twice as heavy as the Langes Messer. It is the second-longest sword I own, next to one that is just under 6 feet long.
It's shown in messer manuals. You can even "half sword" with a dagger to set aside attacks from longer weapons. With the messer, it was called "gripping with the armoured hand" because it was of most use in armoured combat, but works just fine unarmoured. :)
Because the momentum is stopped, there's not much danger of getting cut, especially if done at speed. You're also controlling his arm at the wrist, keeping him from cutting properly. There is no technique that can't be countered, however.
Ceomyr: functionally a centergrip round shield is identical to a much smaller buckler. With a couple of differences however, the underarm moves are more limited in scope due to the size of the shield. The shield itself does not have to move in as exagerated a manner as it's smaller cousin. As well the shield alone can be used for certain of the entrapment moves performed in the I33 text. Definately not Vikes UK legal
I'm curious how historical martial techniques with swords, maces, axes, and spears are peformed with the use of shields on both sides. After being told how important shields were to the Spartan way of fighting by my classics major GF, I've been wondering how much that applies to combat in the middle ages.
There are very few extant manuscripts on the use of full-sized shields. There is a reasonable amount on buckler. By the time most of the manuscripts were written the use of the shield had fallen by the wayside.
Yup. Check out "sword tug of war" here on youtube where my teacher holds on to the blade of an Albion Earl, and I drag him around by the grip. It's my sword, and it's SHARP.
I like that you trade off who is attacking. In other martial art videos we only see one person's prespective on how to attack. This way we see two people's and it seems a more approachable fight pattern rather than one dummy being beat up by an "expert"
This seems much more pure and intellectual rather than egotistical and forced.
As long as the sword doesn't slip, you'll be fine. Check out "sword tug-of-war" here on youtube to see me pull my teacher around while he grips the blade of a sharp sword.
Depends on how sharp the blade is, not where it's made. The sharper the blade, the more easily it is damaged. Modern JSA practicioners keep their shinken very sharp, but I've heard that Samurai would dull their blades a bit in sand before battle to better preserve the edge. Europeans sometimes used differential sharpening, so that the part nearest the tip was the sharpest, getting duller as it reached the crossguard. Of course, katanas have a whole blunt back edge to grip, which is often done.
Yes. So long as you maintain firm pressure on the non edge surfaces of a blade, you will only suffer superficial cuts, if you bleed at all.
Unless they are using a fillet knife, straight razor, or something similarly sharp, but no sword is ever kept that sharp, the edge would be fragile and impossible to maintain.
OK, LOVE that you guys are exploring this. Despite some of the comments you're getting, there was an art here that got lost after gunpowder and epees.
Some of the movements early on make me (almost) think that they had aikido training. I think I only agree with about half of your interpretations, but I'm glad that you're putting it out there. Critics have to have something to work with, after all ;)
Also irgendwie ....ob sowas im Ernstfall hinhaut :O .. ich weiss ja ned.
Wenn man in 1000 Jahren die Jediritter findet auf BlueRay denken wohl auch alle es gab mal Lichtschwerter lol
theBergiNet 1 month ago
Ich freue mich wie Ihr das alte Fechterwissen zu neuem Leben erweckt habt!
Fritztoons 1 month ago
considering the term "Langes Messer" to be gay would be an absolute proof you have no understanding of German.
2bjjones 3 months ago
This is so much cooler than modern fencing.
draggeddownthehole 3 months ago
Gekonnt!
LokiVonIldoran 3 months ago
I would love to see this style vs. Escrima.
Leidern 4 months ago
God save them... good plays...
DiscerningDisdain 5 months ago
GAAAAYYYY
jerico36024 5 months ago
Wonderful!
MrCubano666 6 months ago
I just got the Cold Steel gross messer, could you point me to some more sources about this kind of fighting? Are there any books on the subject?
Do you think that i could use the dussack techniques?
Are the greatsword techniques more apropriate?
ThePowerExcess 6 months ago
@ThePowerExcess
I can't find any sources for specific grosse messer techniques (but they might be out there somewhere). So I think you have to be clever here. Look at dussack techniques and techniques for the langes messer, to learn about messer fighting. Also look at longsword techniques for the use of a two handed sword and more on the use of the cross guard. I would also recomend you to look at katana techniques because the two weapon are so similar.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
@gurkfisk89 I make no claim to be an expert, but didn't Talhoffer write a manual on grosse Messer fighting? I know somewhere in the past I have seen drawings and instructions of grosse Messer techniques.
GaraLuiMartin 1 month ago
@GaraLuiMartin
I know he has the kind of lages messers we see in this clip. But idk about the grosse messer (the two handed version). I'm no expert either so there may be one. If you ever come across the drawings or instructions again, please send me a PM.
gurkfisk89 1 month ago
@ThePowerExcess The CS grossemesser is IIRC a two handed "kriegsmesser" type weapon, right? In that case, it's used just like a longsword. You can even strike with the back edge... some were sharpened for a bit of their length, and if not, you can still generate sufficient impact with a blunt back edge.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 months ago
ich will des auch mal können!!
skallisippe 6 months ago
Just my curiosity... How many stitch scars did our ancestors have on the inside of their hands?
YMS09D 6 months ago
The "Gross Messer" today usually refers to a messer style weapon, the length of a long sword ~4 ft long. Langes Messer refers to these types of weapons.
theArmourerII 7 months ago
awesome stuff
7uos 8 months ago
I got a question: is it better, when holding the blade with two hands, to swing with the blade perpendicularly, so to avoid having your fingers/palm cut as the weapon makes an impact?
wamken619 8 months ago
@wamken619 Proper attacks will keep your hands relatively safe regardless of angle. However, rising attack are risky as they tend to leave your head open unless done as a "zwerchhau". Depending on the stance your opponent uses, you will use certain attacks that will cut off as much of his counter-attacks as possible.
Kunstdesfechtens 8 months ago
When I first saw the words "Langes Messer" I was like "That's the gayest name I've ever heard". And then I actually watched some videos and realized "DAMN, that thing looks like a mini Buster Sword!"
And so I shut up.
qwertyuiop298 8 months ago 8
@qwertyuiop298 it means long knife in german...
creekrocker 1 month ago
what the difference between langes messer and grosse messer?
the0edge0master 8 months ago
@the0edge0master Different word choice. Langes Messer means long knife while Grosse Messer means Great Knife. Same concept, just another word choice.
Altonahk 7 months ago
what are those short swords called that you are using?
HawkmanWalker 8 months ago
@HawkmanWalker
Langes Messer (literally long knife).
gurkfisk89 8 months ago
whew. nasty pieces of cutlery those. this is why most people brought spears with them
DiVeronica 8 months ago
Dieses "Lange Messer" sieht ein bisschen wie Falchion bzw Malchus aus!
Ist es das Selbe?
Pepe87ms 9 months ago
Just thought this information might be of interest to some folks watching this video. HANWEI is going to produce a production made PRACTICAL LANGMESSER. I have seen pictures of the prototype and it looks very nice. It has a blunt tip and edge. I was excited to find all of this out so thought I would share. I have been hoping for something like this to come out for quite some time.
Humble777Servent 9 months ago
hïhî_pässt_hîêr_net_rèïn_âbà_ich_bíñ_só_èìñsåm_wîll_jemänd_mìt_mïå_schrëíbéñ
LonelyiTamao764 10 months ago
Great vid, its good to see techniques for the Messer, as there is'nt alot out there showing it in use. Keep up the good work.
MrJmak223 10 months ago
Great Videos. Really powerfull demonstrations, but still controlled... I am very impressed. :)
SankeEngelskrieger 11 months ago
Oh and by the way if you study old Lawbooks from back in the day,... well lets say authoritys didnt respond kindly to some 3'rd class low life Joe Sixpack handling a sword. In some places you got hanged on the next tree when you where eyebaling a weapon. Using techniques like those in the video against upper class people got you in all sorts of troubles (hanging for example :) and even regular citiziens had to pay heavy compensation fees if they cut someone an Arm or two :).
Alamo25 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Many people are wondering about the Sword grabbing. Well there is no reason to deny it but European common Swords where pretty crappy back in the days. It was more about beating the other guy than actuall cutting. The Better Swords on the other Hand where extremly expensive (like a luxury car for example) and therefore most Common people (if they somehow got a weapon at all which was not normal) used garbage cause they simply couldnt afford a decent sword.
Alamo25 1 year ago
Okay, I'm looking to actually make a few swords. I've the knowledge, materials, and ability. My trouble arises from the choice between a Falchion or a Langes Messer.
Anyone with some background want to put in a few words of debate for either/or?
The main difference to my eye is the tip of the blade- curved, or straight.
Wolfighter27 1 year ago
1:20 - 1:23
LoL
Schildschmied 1 year ago
I was just wondering where your group gets its training messers from?
duokun 1 year ago
Are these plays from the Talhoffer manual?
nikgodson 1 year ago
At 0.47 he cuts with the blunt edge!
fsbritney 1 year ago
@fsbritney
Nope. He cuts the throat, not the arm. Thus edge faces upwards.
MorangRus 2 days ago
Does anybody make the Lange Messer in 16 inch (40cm) blade length ? Up to 22 inch (50cm) ?
Roddyoneeye 1 year ago
wo liegtder unterschied zwischen sax ,machete und langen messer ?
maulex18 1 year ago
@maulex18 ein sax ist gerade und relativ kurz, eine machete ist bei der spitze meist breiter als beim heft (prinzip wie bei einer keule/axt), und das lange messer ist praktisch die europäische antwort auf das katana
xXxAvatarOfKhainexXx 1 year ago
can you tell me where do you get those messer? ive actually been hunting a good one for a while now and cant find one i really like, can you help point me please?
AhzarielAngelus 1 year ago
I love how people think only the orientals had martial arts.
Where would I go and what would I have to do to learn this?
EHSPP16 1 year ago
@EHSPP16 Groups like the HEMA Alliance and the WMA Coalition can help you find a group near you. They're both good associations and they work closely with each other. Most major cities have a group or two like this.
Kunstdesfechtens 1 year ago
What's the difference between a falchion and a messer? is it just much shorter and more seax-like? I noticed some them in the Talhoffer pictures have allmost no quillions.
300warrior300 1 year ago
@300warrior300 From what I've read, they're pretty much identical. The main difference is the pommel. Messer has a displaced curving pommel, like those on scimitars and falchion is often equipped with the apple form pommel.
Ranziel1 1 year ago 3
@300warrior300 I do believe it is the entire hilt construction. Namely, messers have the slab construction with rivets (like a large kitchen knife handle) and falchions typically have a standard cruciform sword hilt. The blades of both weapons vary a lot, and many share almost identical blade shapes from what I've seen.
ruebuscm 1 year ago
You are great!
Jograndable 1 year ago
Beautifull techniques...of a time where a man and a sword could make a difference in this world!
swordmaster1716 1 year ago 3
Nicely!
Katzentatze 1 year ago
I've noticed that some matchete fighters fight in a similar manner!
rehwr 1 year ago
@rehwr that is partially due to the fact that there are only so many ways to use a weapon similar to this and the fact that people in the Philippines(avid machete users) were introduced to European swordplay by the Spanish and learned quite a bit from them they then incorporated it into their fighting systems before they used it and sticks to kick the Spanish off their islands the moral is if you are going to oppress someone do not teach them cool ways to fight first
lockbreak12 1 year ago
@lockbreak12 Thanks
rehwr 1 year ago
Traditionally I have always loved Sabers as my prefered weapon but the more I see and research of Messers, the more I am becoming a convert. Finding a source of messers in Australia is tough let alone finding instruction. Any ides on where to go from here?
sighrd 1 year ago
Sehr schöner Saxkampf. Darf man fragen welche Länge diese Sax misst? ;)
GaiusMaximusJulius 1 year ago
Another great video! Entertaining, and very educational!
I love the comments on half-swording and gripping the blade. I guess having a blunt back of the blade would help that, thus making it doable with a scottish backsword.
The opinion that one is able to grip a *sharp* blade provided pressure is put on the flat not the edge is very interesting, though a little difficult to envisage. Sounds like something one should practice slowly with a good partner!
taitungknight 1 year ago
@taitungknight Take a look at this watch?v=7rqP1F36EMY
Ranziel1 1 year ago
@Ranziel1
Thanks very much!
taitungknight 1 year ago
who the hell clicked on thumbs down...
kdsbsb 1 year ago
Wohl die ästhetischste Art zu kämpfen!
eXtremeBaum 1 year ago
Wow this is excellent! Awesome! Super! Great job!
AnGobh 1 year ago
nice!!!
jettarulz 1 year ago
Sehr gut !
Strickorix 1 year ago
I learned quite a few of these techniques from FMA, but they are taught as if they are unique to FMA when in actuality they also occurred in Europe. Good stuff.
renrakali 1 year ago
is there anything on the arming sword by itself?
elgostine 1 year ago
@elgostine I don't see a reason why messer techniques can't be used with an arming sword as well, in fact, some techniques would be more suitable with it (false edge striking).
Ranziel1 1 year ago
@Ranziel1 the reason im asking is that, im trying to find the european counterpart to the chinese jian, i thought it was rapier, but its often been described as being a cut aand thrust sword, aso i figured 1 handed swords like the henry V sword and other such blades, might be a close analogue and wanted to see a comparison of techniques.
elgostine 1 year ago
@elgostine though these guys would be interesting to see up against a guy with a chinese dao as the dao perforns roughly the same functions in a fight i.e a singel edged hacker and chopper
btw im not looking for an ultimate 'whoes better' but i want to get an idea of how cultres took to various weapons
elgostine 1 year ago
@elgostine may be the Scottish basket hit broad sword. The blade is kind of similar.
sixyears 1 year ago
Hey, where did you record your videos? The setting looks great!
wudangdaoist 1 year ago
sehr nette techniken hab grade erst angefangen am langen messer zu arbeiten geföllt mir sehr gut. wäre mal interessant nen ernsthaftes sparring zu sehen
katthedemon 1 year ago
Just one little thing, when using halfsword let the messer lead and not you elbow. Furthermore i really loved it, awesome techniques and also the introcate ones looked very simple.
blerofict 1 year ago
isnt there ANYTHING on the grosse messer.
elgostine 1 year ago
What about a comprehensive dvd on this we can buy online?
duran3d 1 year ago
Fantastic! I love these videos, keep them coming! Its a shame that these fight manuals dont exist further back in time it would be brilliant to see similar things for saxon or norman fighting methods.
danhodg1 2 years ago 4
Indeed. However, given the similarity of swordsmanship from around the globe, we can with some reasearch at least get an idea of how it might have been done. Take a look at the videos of the group Hammaborg here on youtube for their interpretations on earlier fighting styles.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago 2
DAMN NICE!
do you guys know steve tappin?
PuddingblendeR 2 years ago
The shape of the weapon reminds me a little of the merovingian sax
enfielddnepr 2 years ago 6
Nice observation. The messer is a direct descendant, so to speak, of the sax and langsax, which were basically pan-Germanic.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago 17
@Kunstdesfechtens: That's not correct. The Messer is part of a development of weapons with riveted handles coming up in the late middle ages. The "Bauernwehr" and many other weapons are part of the same family. There is no direct development from the Sax to the Messer, the only parallel is that they both are single-edged. I have studied those weapons some years and own a few original pieces myself. Sorry for bad English, would like to discuss it in German any time.
14santiago52 1 year ago 4
Okay, I read the comments and i get the thing about not slipping, but still, you can't deny that 1:16 is lolworthy.
authordragonbreath 2 years ago 4
Thats why we put this piece in :)
TheRealGladiatores 2 years ago 5
I've been practicing and studying and teaching rapier and cut and thrust fencing for 14 years...and I learn something EVERY time I watch you guys. I have to hate you out of jealousy!
Quillons1 2 years ago 2
@TheRealGladiatores I have not read the text myself but another interperitation of the technique at 1:16 that i have seen is to go for the halfsword stab and if he avoids it by stepping back you can follow up with the mordschlag(don't know if its the same term in longsword and messer). Just another option you guys might consider. I love all the vids you guys do btw.I find them very helpful.:)
xtimtimx1198 2 years ago
@TheRealGladiatores its a great technique against an armoured opponent. The beat of the hilt sends shockwaves through plate armour and can even fracture bones underneath.
permhaaland 1 year ago
Why? You don't (and didn't) always want to kill or maim your opponent! Let's say that this is someone in your village who has had too much to drink and has gone berserk at the barn dance. It would be a terrible idea to kill him, he's married to your cousin, you would be prosecuted, his brother would want revenge, there would be no end of trouble.
So just knock him out instead. Good idea to train techniques for that type of situation as well.
3ng4n 2 years ago
Well, you'd be better of using your fists... or a chair for that, not a sharp sword. But maybe, who knows. A strike like that could a crack a skull though, not the safest way to put down your drunk relative.
Ranziel1 2 years ago
Or use a beer jug. They actually trained jug-fencing too.
BadMartini 2 years ago
@authordragonbreath lolworthy indeed and the look of glee on the mans face
lockbreak12 10 months ago
@authordragonbreath Cutting edges rely on friction and motion to cut unless its a scalpel, in order to cut without a sliding motion you need the blade to come down with speed and *Hack*. I have myself tried using the pommel and guard of a hand & half sword to strike a table and as long as there is no friction and sliding you wont get cut, besides even thin gloves would protect against bruises if the technique is done properly.
AesirCharm 9 months ago
@authordragonbreath that is how you fight people in armor :)
Enysvar 4 months ago
sehr schön!
valentinsebastian 2 years ago
where do you all have such informations, that are "that shurely right",
with some links to sources of such information you would be remakingly more credible!
maggotinc 2 years ago
There's no reason you can't grab a very sharp blade; any chef can tell you that. Halfswording (or half-messering) doesn't require a blunt blade. Just don't let it slip.
seosaidh 2 years ago 27
Exactly. As long as a blade edge is not allowed to move (within a firm grip), it is unable to draw, and thus is unable to cut.
Excellent comment.
VorpalDrake 2 years ago 5
but i still wouldn't be to keen on grabbing a blade in my hands without gauntlets
FULLTHROTTLE87 2 years ago
I have a machete sharp enough to obliterate brush (and cut my thumb while touching up :x ), but I can easily grip the blade with my undersized hands and hit things with it -- no damage done!
M.
meversbergii 2 years ago 2
@seosaidh
they would most likely be wearing some kind of gloves anyways
Supertomiman 11 months ago
European swords were blunt-sharp. Which means only the tip was really sharp, middle was somewhat sharp and bottom and shoulder were often blunt. Besides, you should be grabbing the blade by flats. not the edge.
Ranziel1 2 years ago
Wrong, they were as sharp as Katanas and only Fechterschwerter for the courtfight where a bit blunt in the lower third of the sword.
ExtremeDeathman 2 years ago 2
Also known as battle blunt or a variety of other names. A sword that's too sharp at the edges will tend to nick and break, whereas one that won't cut you just by running your finger along it can still be plenty sharp enough to take your head off.
Nightgaun7 2 years ago 3
This is not always true.
VorpalDrake 2 years ago
Lol at 1:17
authordragonbreath 2 years ago
Back in the day, swords were in truth usually only scissor sharp, as opposed to razor sharp, grabbing a sword by the blade was actually quite common.
TheVoraciousSnapmare 2 years ago
I like that guy's outfit, the brown one. What is he dressed as? I like his hat.
spinhook888 2 years ago
That like Joint lock like arm twist sword grab thing is badass, I've watched that thing like 20 times figuring out how to do it.
IvonoftheGWF 2 years ago
Me too, its pretty metal.
TheVoraciousSnapmare 2 years ago
Impressive.
Mantinae 2 years ago
great job. what kind of coat does the guy in the brown coat have?
CraobhRuadh 2 years ago
Comment removed
mortuary3 2 years ago
The last move was AWESOME!!
T.T
LughOnG 2 years ago
Toll zusammengestelltes Video, Gute Kämpfer, gute Technik, Musik passt, schnitt is gut: vor allem aber einen Respekt an den Kameramann! Diese Dynamik mit Winkel, Bewegung und Zoom bei perfekter Quadrierung sieht man nich so oft bei dieser Art Videos. Klasse Truppe!
DaSappMan 2 years ago 2
BersiCH zustimm
Und man kann mit bisschen Übung richtig schnell werden. Sehr schöne Kampfkunst!
oOReiko 2 years ago
Genial
BersiCH 2 years ago
Plate armor was rare. It was a comlicated device that is a masterpiece by itself.
It was used in one-on-one fights, such as judical duels, between two nobles that could afford such armor. Those likely wouldn't fight with messers though, since it was considered a cheap weapon for common men.
And why can't you see an advantage of armor is a duel? It's like in every other fight - increased protection and advantage in grappling.
Ranziel1 2 years ago
Absolutely beautiful, and a real shining example of the excellent work being done by German HEMA groups!
Superb!
hotspurschool 2 years ago
great!! very interesting!
Knoth47 2 years ago
Klasse Bewegungen und Musik, passt alles.
Respekt !!
kalyptus666 2 years ago
Excellent video. *****
VegaEtereo 2 years ago
In your example the power would be much greater, besides, the cut would be already made and the axe would just push pieces to the sides, breaking the remaining joint.
Try grabbing a kitchen knife hard with you hand, of course it will be painful and you will likely recieve a shallow cut, but it's a good price for defeating your opponent.
Ranziel1 2 years ago
Well, yes you're certainly right; however, let's keep in mind these tricks were meant to be performed with gloves on... the typical gloves at the time would've been a very tough fire-hardened leather. While plate armour was the distinctive style, I really doubt it would've been put to any use in one-on-one duelling.. I can't see any advantage, hah.
DaaanceYouLoser 2 years ago
Is is entirely possible to half-sword barehanded as shown in the video. Plate armour was often used in duels between knights. Heck, historical fencing manuals show people wearing full plate but no gloves or gauntlets of any kind. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
leather+fire=burnt useless leather. You may be thinging of boiled leather, in which case it would not be a glove but hard glove shapped peiaces of leather sewn together. Hardened leather is not very flexible. Their leather gloves would be no thicker than our modern leather gloves.
iceland2121 2 years ago
No, the method is to soak the leather in water or oil and turn it by a fire, thus making it rigid and hold shape. The same effect is seen if you simply leave leather in nature exposed to the elements; it is rained-on and then stiffened by the heat of the sun.
DaaanceYouLoser 2 years ago
Real leather is fire resistant (note: I said resistant, not proof. It'll still melt & shrivel under extreme heat, but a small flame will not harm it.)
VorpalDrake 2 years ago
There're various degrees of hardness a leather glove or other leather wear can be hardened to. And leather gloves can be made extremely thick, through many layers. Only the outermost layer & only the part covering the backs of the palms, as well as over the backs of fingers (but not the joints, so as to keep the glove flexible), is hardened to the effect of having the stiffness of a shell.
VorpalDrake 2 years ago
How does he hold the weapon by the blade, such as from 1:09 to 1:27?
JackDigital 2 years ago
As long as the blade doesn't slip, you won't get cut. Cuts are created by impact and "draw-cutting", not by gripping. You _might_ get cut superficially, but think of the callouses you'd have on your hands from training swords for several hours every day since childhood. Worst case scenario, you've got a deep paper-cut like wound, and he's got his skull caved in. Fair trade in my book. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago 5
Gloves, gaunlets etc.... Callouses? I don't think so. Try holding a blade like that and bash on something like they do in this vid. and callouses or not, you will get cut, even if the blade doesn't slip it will still move in your hand and wedge. Think of chopping wood when the axe is already stuck in the wood and you bash it down to split it apart.
bklopman 2 years ago
The manuals consistently show half-swording with bare hands. Modern researchers have done it: From the ARMA forum: "I can grab my sharpened sword ("chisel sharp") in the middle of the blade and thrust at a suspended car tire or switch to halfsword from a "florysh" and do a mortschlag at the same tire with serious power. No gloves needed. What keeps my fingers from coming off is a) Excerting pressure on the flats of the blade, not the edges and b) not sliding along, but keeping a firm grip"
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago 3
You should make vids with pole axe. Great job!
Jarvensen 2 years ago 2
nice !
xiivampire 2 years ago
Ehlich, Leute, respekt vor euren Moves, sauber!
Iocatores 2 years ago
I have a grosse Messer and it is the finest sword I've ever handled. I would like to know some techniques used with that type of blade, as it's about twice as long and probably twice as heavy as the Langes Messer. It is the second-longest sword I own, next to one that is just under 6 feet long.
DaaanceYouLoser 2 years ago
Sehr gelungen. Meinen Respekt vor solchen Meistern *verbeug*
lg
Erik
ErikTributsch 2 years ago
some techniques shown here, are they called half-swording? i thought its only done with longer swords?
icecrimson 2 years ago
It's shown in messer manuals. You can even "half sword" with a dagger to set aside attacks from longer weapons. With the messer, it was called "gripping with the armoured hand" because it was of most use in armoured combat, but works just fine unarmoured. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
sehr schön. axel ucc hamburg
fewag 2 years ago
So that messer sword has a single cutting edge?
zombiefodder55 2 years ago
Yes.
TheRealGladiatores 2 years ago
Also, some messers have part of the back edge sharpened, and some have a little "point" along the back edge as well.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
@zombiefodder55
messer means "knife" also this is no sword because a big knife
firelord3377 1 year ago
ich finde alle eure videos wirklich sehr interessant und finde es wirklich gut, dass ihr das erbe der europäischen kampfkünste bewahrt.
aber jetzt mal eine frage zu einer bestimmten technik: nämlich der konter bei 0:55 min.
besteht da nicht die gefahr, dass man sich im achselbereich verletzt? oder ist davon auszugehen, dass man dafür ein kettenhemd trägt?
bin ganz und gar nicht vom fach, also verzeihung, falls die frage dumm ist ;)
boritomc 3 years ago
Because the momentum is stopped, there's not much danger of getting cut, especially if done at speed. You're also controlling his arm at the wrist, keeping him from cutting properly. There is no technique that can't be countered, however.
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
Very inspiring.
youngbloodtim 3 years ago
Incredible work guys!! Bravo!!
Maerokane 3 years ago
As an aside have any of you worked with the "La jeu de la Hache" manuscript. Or done video's of this grade
LutefiskSavage 3 years ago
Ceomyr: functionally a centergrip round shield is identical to a much smaller buckler. With a couple of differences however, the underarm moves are more limited in scope due to the size of the shield. The shield itself does not have to move in as exagerated a manner as it's smaller cousin. As well the shield alone can be used for certain of the entrapment moves performed in the I33 text. Definately not Vikes UK legal
LutefiskSavage 3 years ago
go on guys!
XkaschaX 3 years ago
Where can I find good blunt Messers?
VikingWannaBe51887 3 years ago
"New Stirling Arms" they make good Wooden Messers and have a nice, light weight steel messer that, while expensive, is well crafted.
ragnarok993 3 years ago
I couldn't find their steel messer on their site. Can you send me a link?
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago 2
I'm curious how historical martial techniques with swords, maces, axes, and spears are peformed with the use of shields on both sides. After being told how important shields were to the Spartan way of fighting by my classics major GF, I've been wondering how much that applies to combat in the middle ages.
ceomyr 3 years ago
There are very few extant manuscripts on the use of full-sized shields. There is a reasonable amount on buckler. By the time most of the manuscripts were written the use of the shield had fallen by the wayside.
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
mmmmmmhhhhhh köstlich! wie der Rest von euch auch! also, eure Videos natürlich... MAnn seid ihr GUUUTTTTT!!!! Danke, echt jetz!
rezitiert 3 years ago
I've never handled a sharpened sword myself, but is it really alright to half-sword barehanded like that?
Hyperpulsehammer 3 years ago
Yup. Check out "sword tug of war" here on youtube where my teacher holds on to the blade of an Albion Earl, and I drag him around by the grip. It's my sword, and it's SHARP.
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
Great stuff. There is a lot of crap on the net concerning Western Martial Arts -- this is NOT it. Keep up the good work!
roeyrboat 3 years ago 2
Very nice. Good to have pride in our western heritige. Some nice stuff in there that is hard to learn from the east.
Yakshinian 3 years ago 2
reminds me of Assassins Creed
harman2267 3 years ago 2
Who needs long swords or katanas? As our dear corcodile dundee once has said: "THIS is a knife!" And I gladly agree.
2ndCthulhu 3 years ago
I like that you trade off who is attacking. In other martial art videos we only see one person's prespective on how to attack. This way we see two people's and it seems a more approachable fight pattern rather than one dummy being beat up by an "expert"
This seems much more pure and intellectual rather than egotistical and forced.
Well Done.
johhny3m 3 years ago
While grabing a cutting edged sword is there a chance of cutting your hand?
mitsotribal 3 years ago
As long as the sword doesn't slip, you'll be fine. Check out "sword tug-of-war" here on youtube to see me pull my teacher around while he grips the blade of a sharp sword.
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago 2
I watched it...Can you do the same thing with a Japaneese blade?
mitsotribal 3 years ago
Depends on how sharp the blade is, not where it's made. The sharper the blade, the more easily it is damaged. Modern JSA practicioners keep their shinken very sharp, but I've heard that Samurai would dull their blades a bit in sand before battle to better preserve the edge. Europeans sometimes used differential sharpening, so that the part nearest the tip was the sharpest, getting duller as it reached the crossguard. Of course, katanas have a whole blunt back edge to grip, which is often done.
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
Yes. So long as you maintain firm pressure on the non edge surfaces of a blade, you will only suffer superficial cuts, if you bleed at all.
Unless they are using a fillet knife, straight razor, or something similarly sharp, but no sword is ever kept that sharp, the edge would be fragile and impossible to maintain.
CCNorse 3 years ago 4
So you can grab and a long sword which is double edged either,cause the messer is edged in one side...
mitsotribal 3 years ago
very good!!
jmtyrell 3 years ago
Greate, realy greate :)
7dni 3 years ago
True european art, let's value our roots, unlike those waps idiots who like anime.
Good job mates.
milkau828 3 years ago
Liking anime, neither makes you an idiot, nor makes you not value your roots.
Thinking it does, though...
ZarlanTheGreen 3 years ago 6
OK, LOVE that you guys are exploring this. Despite some of the comments you're getting, there was an art here that got lost after gunpowder and epees.
Some of the movements early on make me (almost) think that they had aikido training. I think I only agree with about half of your interpretations, but I'm glad that you're putting it out there. Critics have to have something to work with, after all ;)
ChurchHatesTucker 3 years ago
WOW! This is more or less professional swordplay. Absolutely impressive.
Hordarfylki 3 years ago
Great video guys, really impressed!
Do you have any footage of you doing those techniques in bouting/sparring?
labeteduschola 3 years ago
Very nicely done. I am impressed.
haffoc 3 years ago