Chomsky on Palestine, Israel, and the US-11/29/07 (3/3)

[g7870]

All the coments miss the real issue. Talking about what the bible and god says shows that we are more interested in our beliefs than in solving the problem that is Palestine. Hopeles peace, ceasefire, sectarian dispute talks and the ego tripping comments below to me say that Palestine is a 'dead' country. The internal conflicts, Israels stirs these problems while it creeps over the West bank and puts out propaganda to the world. Palistine is bleeding to death. Its commited suicied. I dont care

[BarackHObamadotcom]

Doesn't he realize that the Palestinians don't have the power (and don't want it). Muslims would sabotage it.

Every time Arafat (terrorist)was at the table there was a terrorist attack.

Not sure what Chomsky is so confused about.

[karmagal]

This is an excellent piece. Thanks for posting in its entirety. Noam Chomsky's understanding of the global political climate, both historically and currently, is nothing short of brilliant.

[DanLackey]

Thanks, Chomskyan . . . for the addition. Reading the first response to this tape (from one Maxwedge12000) I was reminded again of the downside of Internet anonymity, I mean the mask of "user names," which allow the ignorant and the petulant and the vile the therapy of "free" expression but demand in return not one ounce of civil responsibilty for what they say. I decided some time ago that I did not wish to say anything on the net that I would not say at, say, my school.

[Alexopolux]

why are out there so few people like you?

[Chomskyan]

Thanks. And I agree with you about the nature of the internet.... It can be a great tool for information and organization, but it also brings out the anti-social crowds who are terrible distractions.

[boing3887]

so you'd say that everything he says is patently false? i mean, the palestinians ARE being treated like shit, and it's not because they're ALL terrorists lol. we can start from there. that's true, right?

[Maxwedge12000]

" so you'd say that everything he says is patently false?" I can't say that because no human can possible know everything he has said because he has been flapping his jaws for 60+ years. But from what I have heard him say he is mostly wrong and views things in an overly simplistic way. You would be wise to never listen to this guy without doing a ton of investigation into the topic yourself. Chumpsky cannot be trusted.

[boing3887]

what you wrote is not a valid reply. that'd be like me saying that everything darwin said is false but that i can't possibly verify my claim absolutely because darwin published hundreds of papers. don't just call him a fruitcake or a 'chumpsky.' give a counter-argument. i seriously invite you to. i like debate and i like learning new things, and i also don't agree with everything he says. but his commentary on our foreign policy is right on, unless you ignore other countries' histories.

[Maxwedge12000]

I never said everything chomsky said was wrong.

You are projecting. He knows far, far less about foreign policy then you think he does.

[Chomskyan]

This guy has repeatedly commented on my uploads with useless tantrums and personal attacks. He is a troll, he is not interested in dialog. He'll stop when people ignore him.

[Maxwedge12000]

Just because you worship old chumpsky does not mean eveyone else has to also. This is a free country with free thinking people. Chumpsky is old fashioned thinking and we need to get progressive in our ways. No time for old time stuff.

[BohemianElectric]

When it comes to foreign policy, Noam Chomsky has been one of the most progressive thinkers to grace our period. Also, if a policy maker did listen to him, we may not be in our terrible Middle East situations, nor would our nation's leaders be such greedy bastards. And how much research have you done into the topics he talks about, Maxwedge? I'm guessing the extent of what the presidential cabinet lets on Faux News about "Hezb'allah's repeated anti-Israel aggression."

[Maxwedge12000]

Check out the youtube video called, "fitna the movie"

[BohemianElectric]

Yes, there is a jihadist movement that is based on racism, sexism, and violence. However, it in no way is what Islam really is. Also, it doesn't justify Israel's imperialistic libido (nor does it justify them dropping white phosphorous, with worse effects than napalm, on Beirut). Nor does it justify Joseph Kony's interpretation of Christianity (look him up), or Bush's and Falwell's interpretations, all of which make me somewhat ashamed to have faith in Christ.

[karmagal]

What does fitna have to do with Noam Chomsky? Why don't you check out the "holy" bible. Its the most genocidal piece of literature on the book shelf, but its no more dangerous than the Koran. Radical people are dangerous. Also, check out christian reconstructionism or zionism. And while your at it, research something called false flag operations. This should keep you busy for a while.

[Maxwedge12000]

It proves that chomsky is either completely ignorant of the radical islamic movement in the middle east or ignores it in is ramblings.

[BohemianElectric]

Ignorant? Try his literature. He talks extensively about these movements. And it isn't the "Radical Islamic Movement," these organizations have different initiatives. The only thing that binds them is their faith, which would be like binding me and Joseph Kony, which would be a terrible mistake. Labeling it the "radical Islamic movement" proves that you're completely ignorant of the situation in the Middle East, beyond what Condi tells you.

[boing3887]

i read a Q&A once by chomsky where someone asked him 'why don't you focus on real criminals like bin laden?' and chomsky said sumtin like 'well, i take it for granted that bin laden is a horrible human being who deserves to be brought to justice.' i think chomsky's point is that our govt's role in all this is often minimized in mass media except when it comes to partisan politics - both ways, in which case, bombs away!

[boing3887]

i mean, if one learns bout george washington beyond the watered-down elementary/high school shit, we can learn about the large role that washington played in wiping out the native americans - they called him 'town destroyer.' we also learned that washington owned slaves and so on, as did thomas jefferson - the genius who wrote our ground-breaking (in terms of human rights) constitution. we learn alot bout human nature by seeing both the flaws and strengths contained in people.

[BarackHObamadotcom]

"Why don't you check out the "holy" bible. Its the most genocidal piece of literature on the book shelf,"

In what way?

[karmagal]

Are you kidding me? The old testament is filled with "god's wrath". Everything from plagues, to floods, to animal slaughters and sacrifices, to killing over jealousy to wiping out of every human being (including children) in Sodom and Gomorrah. There's not enough room here.

[SkeffingtonP]

You have a Pagan view of God and his relationship with mankind. You're obviously going to come to that conclusion.

[karmagal]

Oh, that's rich. Is this your final analysis based on zero information about me? My comment was about the bible, not god. If I was going to discuss a fictitious character, I'd probably go with the great and powerful oz, although, there are some similarities to these two characters. Both ruled by fear, both demand tests to prove worthiness, both had an appreciation for sacrifice. Wow, I never noticed that before now.

[SkeffingtonP]

What I am saying is that I believe that the Bible is Divine. What I am saying is that you think that plagues, floods, etc. fly in the face of what I would call a loving-God. What I am suggesting is that the purpose of punishment is not a God who had a bad day at the office and is taking it out on his kids. (He is Omnipotent and has non needs).

His punishment is instructional. The goal of our lives is not to avoid pain. Pain is the symptom not the problem. What we are striving for is a relation.

[SkeffingtonP]

Begin with the post below.

...which is the ultimate pleasure. When we stray He reminds us of what we are doing to ourselves by punishing us. (When the child runs into the street to fetch the ball, the only driver who comes out to hit the kid is his father...he's the only one that really cares).

I understand your animosity. I am simply presenting an alternative view; one which I believe to be correct. I am observant Jew and am very happy with life and relationship with God.

Thanks.

[karmagal]

I have no animosity, I have indifference. The bible, other than being a book of interesting tales, has no impact on my life. I came here with a built-in moral compass so the threat of death being the wage for sin would be comical if it weren't so blatantly manipulative. I'm not a rookie when it comes to religion so your view point is nothing new. If your "god" tells you its your birth right to exterminate Palestinians, its a genocidal message. It was hideous when Hitler did it, and it still is

[SkeffingtonP]

Alright, you started off this dialogue with a reasonable statement and now you are just making your ignorance glaring. What the heck does killing Palestinians have to do with being a Jew, observant that is. I don't think killing Palestinians is correct either. Neither do most people with whom I associate.

[karmagal]

You're ego is getting in the way. The above clip is about Israel/Palestine/US. All my comments have been in reference to this. "You're god" wasn't directed at you, per se, but at the general "you" who's god tells them its good to kill Palestinians b/c that's what the above clip is about. I hope I don't have to break everything down so tediously. If this doesn't apply to you, no need for name calling, just say "my god doesn't spread that message". I can follow.

[karmagal]

The message you follow teaches you to believe. The message I follow teaches me to think. I respect your choice. I know there's plenty of room here for everyone. What is wrong, according to my moral compass, is murdering people for not following another group's idea of the "correct" message. Each person's message has to be correct for them and them only.

[SkeffingtonP]

In terms of moral compass, we can go on forever about this, but you realize that without God there is no objective morality. Is being gay moral? Well 30 years ago in the US it wasn't, not it is. Is pulling the plug moral, it depends who you ask. Is killing yourself moral?

[karmagal]

Ah, again we disagree. Believing in god does not guarantee someone has a working moral compass. What that does, all too often, is let people off the hook. If their god tells them something is right, or worse, righteous, they do it and justify it no matter how heinous it is. Like killing Palestinians. Just because you don't support it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You did watch the above clip, correct? Well, religious zealots are an enormous part. Them and plain ole oil greedy Americans.

[karmagal]

As far as the morality questions you posed are concerned, I will decide what's right for me as that is all I have the right to. I'm not making life judgments for anyone else. Do you think you're in a superior position to make life judgments for all mankind about who they sleep with? The things you find morally reprehensible should apply to you, only. If you think gay is wrong, don't be gay. If you don't support pulling the plug, worry about you're own plug, but keep your hands off others.

[SkeffingtonP]

"Do you think you're in a superior position to make life judgments for all mankind about who they sleep with?"

Yes. Do I think it will change what they believe? No. Do you think that being open to everything is positive? Do you think that a complete breakdown of boundaries is positive?

This whole notion of "you do what you do and I'll do what I do" is the beginning of any breakdown of sense of cultural and national identity.

[Maxwedge12000]

Exactly what about chomsky's views on the palestinian/israeli problem do you find so earth shatteringly brilliant?

[Chomskyan]

I don't think everyone should "worship" Chomsky, I think people should hear what he has to say, if they are interested in these issues.

I agree with you that this is a free country, that's why I am trying to bring another voice to the discussion. If you think Chomsky has "old fashioned thinking," you are welcomed to refute him with your own arguments. I haven't stopped you in anyway.

In fact, you are just a troll. That's oaky, I support your right you troll around with ad hominem attacks.