Lecture: Erasmus Lecture -- Peter Enns, Feb. 9, 2011

[TrustinJC]

Interesting.

[lukehase]

That was really thought provoking, I enjoyed it.

[YOBBOJOBBO66]

why must he put up so many straw men, and take a consistently wrong view on scripture that is very plain and clear? For example: Cain's wife - does Genesis 4 say that Cain found his wife in Nod? No. If he took a sister then that wasn't incest as God did not give that law until the time of Moses. It is sad to think that some will be taken in by his view.

[prakashjeyg]

So he is saying that...Gen 1 is hard to understand and move on to Mark?...hahahah .So change the bible to your view or Science view. WRONG! What kind of preacher he is and what he is doing in Westmont CHRISTIAN College.What he is saying is AGAINST the Christian doctrine. Change our view according to the Bible.

[tristianos]

this guy doesnt get it at all, but he sounds very intellectual all the same.

[ArchieLovesMe]

Perhaps next Mr. Enns will be saying that Jesus was metaphorical if He gets in the way of his "science".

[CoolnessInGod1]

I ran out of space on the last post, but I just have to mention that not only did ancient silly Paul view Adam as the first man, so did Jesus himself - but then, Jesus was an ancient man as well....no! Some things are very black and white, either you believe in the inerrancy of the bible as the inspired word of God or you don't - simple. If you don't and you start to put your mind into this you are saying that you are bigger than God. I think Peter Enns is wrong. May God help him see.

[CoolnessInGod1]

Well, actually the bible does say that men and dinosaurs lived at the same time. If you look at the creation week, God created all things including dinosaurs and people during the first week. The name dinosaur wasn't invented until many, many thousand years later.

Paul was wrong???? Really??? Just an ancient man who didn't know any better? How about the bible being the INERRANT and INSPIRED word of God? That's what it is in my life! Genesis flexible??? NOT so!

[VforVideo]

At least he is looking at the Bible and showing his students the way different people interpret it.

I'd much rather take a class from this man than sit in a Ken Ham lecture where I'm told that If I don't believe that Dinosaurs existed with humans (although this never appears in the Bible) then I can't be a Christian. The Word of God deserves two things; first my unyielding faith, and second, my thought and meditation on it.

Do you know the mind of God? Let's look at the Bible, not AiG

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo There's only one way to interpret the bible and that is the correct way which is typically using scripture to back up scripture, not some form of maybees, theories or could haves. Ken Ham NEVER said if you don't believe dinosaurs are in the bible, you can't be Christian. There are many Christ followers who have been brought up believing its ok to believe in both long ages (evolution) and the bible, but haven't been exposed to the truth of what Jesus himself believed (see Mark 10:6)

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Good idea, Let's look at the bible ALONE Sola Sciptura

[Wolffe999]

Does he really believe in the Bible?!  Everything he says questions what the authority of scripture, God's Word, says. There is a lot of speculation in his theories of scripture which begs the question, Does he believe anything the bible says? You know, like the virgin birth, the resurrection and the forgiveness of his sins thru the blood of Jesus.

What a hashing of scripture! His teachings should be refuted and he needs to repent of his sins against the Word of God.

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999

Genesis wasn't written as a science book (science, as a field of study, has only been around for the last 300 or so years).

I see a man humbly trying to think about the Word of God. He isn't 'hashing' anything. He never said "you MUST accept what I'm telling you or you don't really believe." He seems to love the Bible more than he loves his own interpretation of it...can you say the same thing?

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Your right, Genesis is not a science book, but it is a history book and every area of science that it touches upon, it has complete authority and accuracy. Dinosaurs are in fact mentioned in the bible, what kind of animal can you think of that has the tail of a cedar tree (Job 40:15-24). This speaker is a complete heretic and deserves no recognition of any kind of authority of scripture. What he loves is his own interpretation and leading others away from truth. REPENT and believe

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999

You can't have it both ways. Sola Sciptura AND Dinosaurs? No way. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but on one hand you seem to be saying Job mentions what COULD be a dinosaur...ergo, there were dinosaurs mentioned in the bible...and on the other had you say we shouldn't creatively interpret scripture. How much Sola Sciptura are you doing when you say Cain slept with his sister and dinosaurs lived with people? ...sounds like creative interpretation to me.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Can you give me a suggestion of what other animal has great loins with the tail of a cedar tree? (Job 40: 16-17). What's wrong with Cain sleeping with his sister. It wasn't uncommon in anciet times to have relatives marrying other close relatives. Its only due to DNA mutations (bad ones) that today, if we were to do the same, it would have disasters results. The results of sin, I might add.  Eve came from Adams rib... how close of a relative is that?!

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999

To be clear, looking at that verse in JOB 40... You're right. It MIGHT be talking about a Dinosaur. It also might be talking about a Hippo. I also don't think it matters very much. What matters is when you tell people the Bible DEFINITELY says something it doesn't say instead of being honest and saying "I don't know, the Bible doesn't talk about dinosaurs or evolution directly but here is what I think."

Be careful before you call someone a heretic.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Have you ever seen the tail of a Hippo? Its tiny!! You're right about dinasuars becuase its a new word (less than 150 yrs old). Before that, they called them dragons. Dinosuar means "large lizard", reptile just like hmmm... kamoto dragon. Funny how that works huh?! Evolution is not mention either because it never happened, except micro-evolution with is species within a "kind" like different kids of dogs, cat and people. The bible is not a smorgabord, its either all true or not

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999 The Cedar analogy refers to the way the tail moves (read carefully), not it's size, but again. I don't think it really matters. God is revealing His power here isn't he? Look at these fantastic things God has created! Job 40:15 doesn't exist as evidence for dinos, but to reveal the Majesty of the Creator God.

"The bible is not a smorgabord, its either all true or not" -what exactly are you saying here? If I disagree with 'Answers in Genesis' then I disagree with the bible?

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Yes, the way its moving like a large powerful cedar, not a willow branch in the wind like a hippo or elephant.

If one reads the bible plainly, especially in Genesis 1 where even Jesus believes that God (himself) created man and woman "from the beginning" not eons after the beginning. God also acknowledges creation in 6 days in the 10 commandments . Martin Luther struggled why God took so long unlike creating the stars in one day. Could not God have created he earth in one day too?!

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999 Of course God could have created the earth in one, literal, 24-hour day! Of course Cain could have had relations with his sister. Of course Behemoth could have been a Brontosaurus. But I only accept these as (unlikely) possibilities, not concrete Biblical truths.

I'm not sure what you mean by reading the Bible 'plainly.' But I believe we can both read through Genesis and disagree about these things without anyone being a heretic.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Do you believe in death before sin? If you do, then that would unbiblical since sin brought death into the world; without sin, there was no death. Do you believe Jesus was telling the truth when he said that "from the BEGINNING, God made them man and woman?" Most liberal Christians don't consider the implications of claiming a YES with these two questions because one cannot believe in scriptural inerrancy while denying scriptural truth in claiming death before sin.

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999

These are your implications, not mine. Call me a liberal, heretic, or whatever else you want to call me. I'm in good company. :) All I know is that I believe what the Bible says...everything else is debatable.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo You said "All I know is that I believe what the Bible says..." Do you?! Do you believe Jesus when he said God made them man and woman "from the beginning" and God (thru Paul) said that "thru sin, death entered the world". I admit, these were stumbling blocks for me since evolution (life from non-life; death without sin, etc) and creation are bookends of opposition, one of them had to be wrong. I encourage you to re-evaluate whether you truly believe what the Word of God is teaching

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999 "I encourage you to re-evaluate whether you truly believe what the Word of God is teaching"

And I encourage you to evaluate whether you are being a religious bully or not. You're walking an incredibly thin line sir. I can't judge your heart, but God will. Of course I believe in what the Word of God is teaching, I can do that without believing the earth is 6,000 years old. YOU are adding to scripture when you say if I don't accept this interpretation then I can't accept the Bible.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Bully, no more like standing for truth and not bending to secularists or liberal Christians who want it both ways! Can a truly born-again Christian beleive the earth is millions of years old, yes they can be a true beleiver BUT if they are shown their correction thru scripture (2 Tim 3:16) that "death came thru sin" and Adam was created "in the beginning" and still denies the truth, THEN I question what they hold as their authority... man or God. I choose God. Who's your authority?

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999  God will judge me. I fear His Judgement, not yours. You can say what you will. I deny that the Bible says the earth is 6,000-10,000 years old. If you think that means I'm denying truth, then curse me. I don't fear your curse or your rebuke. I fear the One who can cast into hell.

May God look at my heart and judge whether I'm denying Him and His Word or the pseudo-biblical doctrine of AiG.

My authority, and my judgement, will come from God alone. Romans 2:1

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo You're right, God will judge you. "I deny that the Bible says the earth is 6k-10k yrs old" You deny the simple reading of Gen 1?! Do you also deny Jesus linage in Luke 3? Which one of these people were imaginary? If none, then by process of elimination, Adam lived approx. 6k yrs ago. What man lived before Adam? What was the purpose of warning Adam and Eve that "they would surely die..." if death was already a reality?

Too many reasons why the earth can't be millions of years old!

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999

Genesis 1:2 "and the earth was formless and void, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

God is the Sovereign Creator. I do not claim to know His mind. I am only a man. Genesis gives us only the answers we need. Nothing more

I'll let you figure out how I can accept Biblical authority without believing in a young earth.

Again, curse me if you will. My guide is the Word and the Spirit of God. Not you or the powerful organization that you're defending. James 1:5

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999 But my understanding is that rebellion against God existed before man. Luke 10:18 and Isaiah 14:12 -- Satan falls from Heaven because of his rebellion. Evil existed before Adam and Eve...there was a Tree of the Knowledge of Good AND Evil right? So yes, I believe physical death existed before the fall of man. As soon as Man rebelled, they were kicked out of the garden. Death followed.

I'm not Bible scholar, but you look foolish when you question my faith in God's Word.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo (1) the bible is NOT clear WHEN Satan (an ANGEL) rebelled, whether before or after creation. I'd say after due to Gen 1:31 and (2) Death came to MAN thru the sin of Adam (a MAN). God said "if you eat of the fruit of the tree of Good and Evil, you (a MAN) shall surely die". God didn't say when he would die, because man, originally created immortal became mortal because of sin. IF physical death happened before the fall of man, then was man's only punishment being kicked out of Eden?

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999 ) "the bible is NOT clear WHEN Satan (an ANGEL) rebelled, whether before or after creation."

Exactly. The Bible is not clear about some things. It's clear when it needs to be clear. It is the perfect Word of God.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo "It's clear when it needs to be clear" like Gen 1, the creation. Very clear and simple to understand. Since everything was "very good" in Gen 1:31, there must have been no sin, no death and Lucifer was still God's Angel... before he committed the great sin of pride which some men still commit today by denying the truth of scripture and putting man's ideas (evolution, life from non-life) before God's claim of creation. What is your understnading of creation?

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999 Like you, I can only go on God's word. I'm glad that the Bible is the foundation of your understanding.

I believe in the possibility of a time gap between Genesis 1:2 and 1:3. God created the Heavens and the earth...the earth was formless empty...(gap)AND THEN... This is why I don't have a problem with rocks being dated to billions of years.

I think these are open handed issues -meaning we can disagree. :) This dialogue has caused me to take a close look at the Word. So thank u!

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo I'm thankful that you too use the bible as your foundation. And yes, we can both disagree on issues that are non-essential doctinal issues. Please keep in mind that we should only use scripture to compare with scripture as its important to remove our bias from wordly thinking as I used to do as well. Believing that God created the heavens and the earth exactly as written in Gen 1 is quite enlightening as we don't need to always find ways to meld worldly thinking with God's word.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo You may not like AiG take on creation, but I would encourage you to seek other resources including well known & respected preachers such as Dr. John MacArthur for example. He has excellent material on creation (from a biblical perspective) along with Dr. Charles Stanley, Josh McDowel, and many others I would be pleased in providing for your if your interested. On a side note; typcially dating rocks usually comes with circular reasoning based on fossils found within them & visa versa

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999 I don't like any Creationist theory that declares war on science, or tries to create a false science to "back up" the Bible. I'll stick with my NASb Genesis and read it "plainly" as you put it.

Only here because Ken Ham said this guy was a heretic.

The Evangelical war on science sickens me. It fuels atheism. It shakes those who have weak faith. It says things that aren't Biblical...and claims that if you don't agree, you don't believe in the Bible.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Science does support a young earth. Historical science is a guessing game not to mention circular reasoning. Scientists can't tell the cause of death of those found a hundred years ago, but claims to know what dinosuars had for breakfast millions of years ago. How foolish is that?! BTW, your NASB DOES teach a 6-day creation. Formless and void does not equal gap. Where did you get that from? What would you call someone who doubts everything the bible teaches? A Heretic?! I do.

[VforVideo]

I only have to look up on a clear night to know that science does not support a young earth :)

Fortunately, time isn't really relevant when you're dealing from God's perspective. Time is really a man made construct. If you want to call a period of time 24 literal hours or 7,000 years, that's fine with me...but don't graft it into today's scientific model.

I just hate to see division over something that I consider to be trivial as far as it relates to things that God wants for us.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Yes, the heavens declare the glory of God. Many Christians don't realize the implications of believing in long ages because this theory also teaches that the stars were created first and the earth last, whereas the bible teaches the earth was created first and the stars last. To believe either a gap theory or long day ages, one must also believe in death before sin. Do you believe that?! That goes against so many principles of scripture, I can't even begin to list them all here.

[VforVideo]

It takes starlight millions of years to travel to earth, this is a possible reason that stars are not mentioned until the fourth "day."

Long ages, short ages....they have nothing to do with Genesis. AiG makes tons of cash creating controversy that isn't in the Bible. I don't believe in Genesis because any scientific model backs it up. I don't need science to back it up...It takes lots of faith and wisdom to accept the bible without having to declare war on science.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo light years are a measurement of distance, not time. Actually, its the secular community that is creating all the controversy. Up until Darwin came along (actually other just before him), it was a known and accepted fact that the earth was as young (or old) as the bible had taught. We treat 6000 yrs as young where in fact, its quite old. Today scientists like throwing around million or billions of years as if it a simple number.

[BronyEditor]

@Wolffe999 Nonsense. First of all, Darwin had no influence on the scientific consensus regarding the age of the earth. Geology was established well before he was born. Before Darwin, Geologists like William Smith and John Phillips were arguing for an old earth.

The 6000 year date comes from Bishop Ussher. Before him, Christians did not attempt to use the Bible to date the age of the earth. And in fact, Christians like Augustine were against treating scripture as a science textbook.

[Wolffe999]

@BronyEditor Nonsense

[BronyEditor]

@Wolffe999 Oh really? You're disputing the fact that the science of Geology (which was established before Darwin) was already challenging the idea of a young earth before Darwin was even born? If you'd like, I can name several geologists that argued for an old earth long before Darwin was even born.

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Do you agree with the virgin birth? The ressurection? Miracles? How about anything supernatural the bible teaches?! Where do you draw the line between what you believe and don't believe?  Would you consider yourself a good person? Jesus said, "None are good, no not even one". Have you kept the 10 commandments? Where are you going after you die? Jesus said, "you MUST be born again to inherit the kingdom of God". Have you repented of your sins and placed your trust in Jesus?

[VforVideo]

@Wolffe999

Yes, I believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, the only way to have a relationship with God.

To answer your next question...

Parts of the bible I take literally ( that is...scientifically) and others I do not. Psalm 93:1 (and many other passages in the Bible) describe the Earth as immovable. Of course we now know that the Earth revolves around the sun...so I can't apply Psalm 93:1 to today's science. That would be silly, and It would take away from the point of the verse

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo  I trust that your relationship with Christ was established by agreeing with scripture that we are hopeless in attaining forgiveness and salvation without repentance and faith.(Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9) Yes, many Psalms are written allegorically as songs and poetry, however the word used for "cannot be moved" in (Psalm 93:1) is the Hebrew word "mowt" (Strong's #4131) meaning it "cannot be overthrown, dislodged or drop". It has nothing to do with being stationary. Context is everything!

[Wolffe999]

@VforVideo Does a hippo move its tail like a cedar; it seems to me, more like a piece of string stagling in the wind. A cedar has size and power, like the tail of just about any dragon, dinasuar or many lizards (including crocidiles).

I think second guessing what Paul (visa vi the Word of God) is saying instead of reading it plainly (as we should, for the most part) and especially comparing scripture verses with other scripture verses is the best way to interpit the bible... not guessing

[DemolayTx]

Let me summarize this guy: the Genesis account doesn't mean what it says, Paul didn't know what he was talking about, nor Jesus about "beginnings". But Jesus promise of his kingdom and salvation - that you can take to the bank. WAKE UP! The book is either all true, or all false; either the inspired word of God, or it isn't.

[onceforgivennowfree]

I guess it comes down to ultimate authority. Are you going to take the bible for what is says, or are you going to interpret it through the lens of something else, be it the watchtower organization, current scientific ideas, or something else.