Screams, Slaps and Lovaas

[christschool]

Wow, 3 years ago. Time flies.

[JonahTorn]

I have Tourettes and there were members of my family who never understood things I did when I was young like looking as if I was talking to my self, rubbing against walls to feel even and stuttering that would come and then disapear. It can be hard with Tourettes because we are not to litteral. We tend to know exatly what every expression and reaction means and we know when people do not understand us very well.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

Autistic child born w/ different brain & exhibits "Stimulus Overselectivity" meaning doesn't learn properly through natural exposure (unfocused) conditioning

Tough love is not necessary & can B avoided 2 detriment if unaware of how to compensate is avoided

Tough love is not key. Behavioral momentum is key more then love 4 their progress

Temper tantrums R 95% of time related 2 language/expression barriers so learning theory that works (ABA) would help them not harm themselves or others

[truejustice1]

Just have a cycle of reprocushions to were the most boring and worse punishments first then if they keep having problems help them just because there a problem child and test them all...

[Grapejuice22]

There are different degrees of autism.

The sevearist case I saw was a little boy who had neurotoxicity from mercury in his vacine, the poor boy rocked back and forth and shaked his hands, it was so sad.

The mildest cases are when a person behaves normaly to others but inside their mind they feel that there is a communication barier, and some lose screw.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

No kidding autism is spectrum disorder & Lovaas' procedure took kids like 1 U mention who rocks back & forth or who bites their pinky finger straight off with their own mouth & taught them 2 talk & live in society seemingly pretty normal or obviously disabled, but able 2 work a regular job.

What happened 2 child U call worst case?

1 of my nephew's could not speak & would harm himself & others in past, but now speaks normal, but is obvious impaired.

What would U do? Let rock no progress.

[hvetebroed]

So I'm not convinced autism is a disorder, and I don't think people get it. I just think we don't want to take the trouble to understand it.

For what it's worth, dealing with the autism itself was never a problem for me. But dealing with society's reaction to autism has always been a huge problem... I'm way more scared of the specialists with their cures and theories than of the autism itself.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

hvetebroed,

When people had autism in the 50s & 60s it meant that 90% had no functional language.

Are you saying you have autism?

[hvetebroed]

No. I'm not autistic. And my son has language. He made a youtube video. His screen name is arnebenne. :-)

[ABAisSCIENCE]

Try reading about autism as to what it really was in the past and then you might understand the literature more.

My family members did not talk until an intervention was applied.

Perhaps you are speaking about aspergers.

As an aside one of my nephews are indistinguishable now and the other who wasn't even making sounds can speak quite well, but he is obviously disabled within three seconds to anyone.

[hvetebroed]

Interesting! Thanks for the info.

[hvetebroed]

You know, thanks for this. My son is diagnosed with autism, and he has always been really easy going. If you wonder what he's like, he made the only movie on my channel. I've never wished he were some other way. I've always felt I had really good contact with him, no interpersonal issues whatsoever. And he can read my emotions like a book. If a shadow of discomfort passes through me fleetingly, he feels it out of the back of his head.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

hvetebroed,

Is your son talking? If not then you might want to look into behavior modification. This is because 50 years ago not much was known about how to teach them and so things have changed big time since this article.

90% of children with autism can learn functional language by ABA.

47% can B indistinguishable by ABA & what this means is they learn naturally now & fit into society as opposed 2 self-stimulating all the time or being frustrated due 2 being unable 2 communicate.

[spreadthesymbol]

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[Happyautism]

Many autistics with comunication problems are frustrated and my sons do have temper tantrums, but they are not devil children, then are like every other child, tantrums are comon.

the lable devil kids is just stupid, and not at all helpful. That child that was described as a ''devil kid'' was obviously not getting the right kind of help

[Happyautism]

''lol psychiatry noobs'' i take it you play warcraft too!

I am not suportive of the extreem punishments at all. It sounds like torture not therapy of any kind.

My view is if the behaviour is not harmful, like flapping and the child enjoys it, let it continue.

Reports can be spun either way - if they want the child to seem really really bad and then ''cured'' they can say anything. Autism speaks DOES not speak for autism.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

I feel I must one last thing and that is I actually like Christschool for I did understand why he blocked me. I felt wrongly, but I understood it. Yet it must be pointed out that he has unblocked me and if he accepts the last posting I just gave I would feel done with my discussion on that video. Again - Christschool an awesome job of educating others on aversives and I support your stance - Just happen to be in debt to Lovaas indirectly.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

Of Course there is one last thing that could be said for Lovaas Significant Deception and that is that by blocking a person might not be able to explain the comment they said. For instance, in the last comment I wrote the individual with autism could be brought back into society. I did not mean that as what I thought but what historically happened as the person was in an institution previous to Lovaas intervention.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

The fact is that without learning the mind is not being pruned and the individual has no chance to learn any behaviors to allow them to be exposed to social reinforcers. This is why babies with autism exhibit social skills and as they age they do not. If one is not reinforced then one will not exhibit behaviors. We need to learn how to strengthen the behaviors they do exhibit better and never give up on exposure to contingencies that will cause them to learn and grow to be independent.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

The fact of the matter is that autism is a disability. Did you know that over 50% of individuals with autism did not develop functional language in the 70s and an even higher percentage had mental retardation along with the autism? Believe me I'd rather write MR then the whole words, but let it sink in.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

Basically what it means is that teaching techniques are being found for all people and the significance is likely to be more obviously seen for those who are harder to teach. Yet all people need to learn for two reasons: First it develops the mind and second it strengthens the mind. The old adage use it or lose it is true.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

If one finds out that classical conditioning and operant conditioning techniques work on typically developing humans and work on people with autism this does not dehumanize either group. Furthermore, if dogs learn by classical conditioning and operant conditioning this does not dehumanize people anymore than dedog the dog.

[CoolNASCARGuy]

Autism Speaks never did, and certainly never will, speak for me. They doctored their documentary 'Autism Every Day'.

[totallyawsum]

sentence about that thought, speak the sentence. old adage-think before you speak applies. streaming conscienceness is of no use here.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

Furthermore, Lovaas taught children language who would not otherwise and has left aversives. I think Christschool has a great message. I just wish it wasn't Lovaas he was attacking and rather someone he knows today who uses them. Yet if you want to learn more check out other autism videos by Christschool.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

I think one needs to ask one more question into today.

Does Christschool have science to back him up in any of his videos when he by implication assumes that parents love their children any less when they do behavior modification? If it teaches is it valuable to the child and the parent? We can love without words, but can we understand as easily without it?

[ABAisSCIENCE]

Christschool has made me think something new. I never would have thought this without the journey to defend Lovaas. What is more harmful behaviors at early age that prune to be non-social or shock applied in minimal dosage over very few days. Does the child need to self injure to deserve shock? I've never thought about that before. Never had seen particular article Christschool did. Truly amazing!

[ABAisSCIENCE]

This might end it for me, but I just want to say that I hope Christschool made you think for a minute about the past, abuse, and I'm glad you brought up parents. Things have changed, but things are the same. Abuse goes on, but Lovaas was proving learning and not intending abuse. He accomplished a great deal for teaching methods and bringing hope for a better future.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

These children even if unable to become typical were after Lovaas able to speak functionally and thus avoid abuse during the lifespan. Was shock (mild-attention effect only desired then pain) the best treatment? Behavior serious for some treatment effects quicker than anything available today. Cost of effective alternative is high.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

I would want my eight year old back after four years of abuse by the state. I would want my child to learn functional language rather than only be able to parrot others words without function for them. I want parent training in my home. Available at UCLA begun by movements in California. But you must know how to teach principles to children. See Lovaas' history for that.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

Here is a thought about what parents had to chose for eight year old. Would you rather your child be in 4 pt restraint or that they learn to not bite to expose their bone at the shoulder. It's only two days of shock treatment. It was institutions at four years old and given up to state prior.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

Lovaas eliminated the behavior of children biting the flesh off their shoulders. He eliminated self injurous behavior and allowed return to the family as opposed to an institution for a 16 year old who severed the pinky finger off by mouth. Lovaas has shown what shock can be used to control and the alternative use of shock outside of UCLA was such that individuals could not learn afterwards like a lobotomy. Lovaas showed autistic children could learn.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

The autistic child is treated differently by all institutions and professionals, but let us say that the technique teaches. Futher let us say the past home setting or institution teaches. To understand that read "A case for the selective reinforcement of punishment" by DM Baer from 1968 and remember the story is historical and the professionals are to be commended for bringing science to those with disabilities, which brought what we all benefit from today

[CoolNASCARGuy]

ABA only teaches the child one thing: to mimic normal behavior without actually understanding why/when the behavior should be used. I've never had ABA and I'm A LOT BETTER OFF THAN A LOT OF MY KINDERGARTEN-AGED AUTISTIC CLASSMATES ARE!

ABA is typically used with aversives, which I regard as inhumane if unnecessarily used (which it unfortunately is most of the time).

[ABAisSCIENCE]

Well, you can't speak for the behaviorism community. They do not use mostly aversives. They control contingencies and that means building behavior through reinforcement. Aversives are being removed overtime and is mostly gone in all reality, but those who are not properly trained do chose to add them at times because of the past.

[CoolNASCARGuy]

I'm not speaking for the behaviorism community.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

Your comment on teaching mimicing: "old." Do you know why it makes sense? Because autism is stimulus overselectivity or the learning of behavior under one stimulus which might be either irrelevant or only a part of the stimulus for when a behavior is to occur. Thus, the child will not generalize or use a behavior naturally until training covers multiple exemplars or stimulus fading for initiated speech. Who wrote the literature on generalization? Baer who taught Lovaas (read behaviorists).

[ABAisSCIENCE]

As an autistic person you insult a person with autism for being robotic and you attribute it to the training, but maybe it's the autism. I find you offensive for insulting my nephews who were robotic and echoing speech until the training was complete and now they are indistinguishable in both speech, intelligence, and social skills. Behaviorism does not remove autism it conditions behaviors offering new reinforcement contingencies and thus normal behavior.

[CoolNASCARGuy]

ABA is STILL too much like animal training. It is dehumanizing.

[ABAisSCIENCE]

If you learn to shut up in an elevator due to contingencies did it dehumanize you? If a man learns to shut up in a bathroom and a woman learns to talk in a bathroom due to different contingencies did it dehumanize them? If a dog learns to salvitate to a bell being rung due to stimulus pairing with food did it dehumanize the dog?

[CoolNASCARGuy]

Go to this website and look at the article entitled 'My Position on ABA'. It WAS NOT written by me, but I strongly agree with this person:

home[dot]att[dot]net/~ascaris1­/

[ABAisSCIENCE]

home[dot]att[dot]net/~ascaris1­/

I feel the person is dreaming relative to what autism is historically or even what it is today. Look I'm all for Christschool believing that we need to see the positive and portray the positive and I'm all for getting aversives out of interventions for those with disabilities. [More on next one]

[ABAisSCIENCE]

You asked does it work? Lovaas 60s eliminated self injurous behavior and child either returned to parents trained or institution and behaviors then 4 pt restraint. 70s learnings from aversive treatment outcomes allowed treatment to evolve to result in indistinguishable children. 80s results published and acknowledged as only scientific study that stands scrutiny.

[menny825]

My nephew with autism has an older brother and sister. To not know them if you were to just see them like on a playground, the autistic nephew plays mostly by himself. They like repetitious things, scheduly, sometimes to repeate a word or phrase over and over. They (mostly you can say all, the spectrum is SO great) don't interact much with others, especially strangers, and my nephew doesn't like formal setting. (circle time at his school, sitting down at a dinner table with more than 2 people)

[menny825]

Autistic children are not devilchildren. I have a 5 yr old nephew with autism. I worked at a daycare for 4 yrs and we had two autistic children there. Children with any type of autism has at least one area that is difficult. No one is absolutely sure what causes it...genetic or enviomental. With the right "therapy" (aba n such) autism children can gain SOOO much. Not always to the point of a "typical child"

[LucyShy]

Autism is sooo much more complicated than that. They aren't neurotypical. They do not think, the way other children think. They don't react, the way other children react. In a way, they are sweet, since they aren't as cunning and manipulative as a NT child. They just are who they are. They are also very hard workers, since they have to deal with so many things just to.. speak, dress, communicate, that a NT child just naturally learns. To say they are a devil is really misinformed.

[nervousneuron]

Thanks for this nice reply! Seems like nobody thinks autistics are manipulative any more than average (I didn't think so either, it must be just a product of journalism and making things appear worse than they are as parodied in Christschool's video Nyrotypicalism Everyday). And that's a good point that it's less likely, I didn't even think of that.

[LucyShy]

Finally it tries to force eye contact; the stimulus is overwhelming, painful, horrible AND is preventing him from getting to the rock - He has a meltdown. Basically screaming until he can get away and back to the safety of his own quiet world.

What we see is a 'bad kid' running away from his parents into the street for no reason and not listening or looking at them when they try to tell him it's dangerous; and then having a 'temper tantrum' because he 'doesn't get his way'.

[LucyShy]

Imagine a kid, in his own world, running to inspect a rock across the street. Suddenly out of 'nowhere' (at least to him) something forceful grabs him by the shoulders, sending shocks throughout his system. Then they restrain him; he can't get away from the touch. There's a tremendously loud noise extremely close to his face; he turns his face & it follows him...

[LucyShy]

The repetitive behaviors ("Stimming") is a form of self-stimulation. It's thought that their brains have trouble 'feeling' their own bodies as well as connecting to outside stimulation; so they do these things to get some comforting sensation out of it. It has NOTHING to do with others. Temper tantrum happen in all children, however in autistic kids often outside stimulus is actually painful for them.

[LucyShy]

Autism, from what I understand, can not be seen as a child attempting to use their behavior to hurt others; basically because the very idea of autism is that the child isn't connected to others. There's a HUGE spectrum of course, but severely autistic kids wouldn't have a clue if mom, dad, Dr., therapist, teacher were frustrated or angry with them. They don't interact that way.

[tester7555545]

I like your bandana

[nervousneuron]

I haven't heard from you in ages and I was wondering what happened, though I suppose your LJ explained that :(

[nhdad]

Any text as old as this one (1965) should only be read to understand the historical context. We've learned so much since then that little of the diagnostic and treatment information is completely out of date.

[nhdad]

Oops - I should read exactly what I write before hitting "post comment." Please substitute the word "little" with "all."

[christschool]

nhdad, if "we" whoever we is (neurotypicals?) has learned that the "diagnositic and treatment information is completely out of date" then why do ABA conferences still invite Lovaas to speak on the topic of the "Use of Aversives" in contemporary ABA? Behaviorists are all about making money off autistic lives, same as the discredited DAN! doctors. I want to see an autistic made "indistinguishable" by ABA.  Where are they?

[nhdad]

I can't tell you why ABA conferences still feature Dr. Lovass as a speaker. I haven't been active in the field in years. However, my general opinion of behaviourists is that they tend to be too narrow in their focus. I prefer a broader, more multi-disciplinary approach.

[KuraiGaka]

I was watching an old family video and in the video, you could see me at probably age 4-5, sitting in front of the telly. My sister moved some object on the mantle piece and I started screaming. I'm actually glad that mum just kept on filming instead of molly coddling me better because I realise that I was screaming because I must have felt that my older sister was ruining what I made into some kind of model (My childhood masterpiece, heheh!).

[KuraiGaka]

Like most autistic kids, I didn't quite trust the world around me so I sort of had to make up my own rules which is a basic human characteristic. When there is chaos around you, you need to make a haven or a small society otherwise you would go absolutely mental and be part of a havoc.

For me, I almost lived in an imaginary world. Not literally but, y'know, constant daydreaming. I did that a lot and hated it when I was disturbed.

[KuraiGaka]

I think that was a benifit because I am pretty good at art (not to be obnoxious), very good at writing short stories and have a passion for filmmaking/animation.

Also, you should have a look at "Freak, geeks and Aspergers Syndrome" by Luke Jackson. It might answer a lot of your questions. It certainly answered some of mine.

[nervousneuron]

Thanks for the comment. Mind if I ask something? If you were having a tantrum as a kid, would you like somebody to hug and pat you (or whatever they do) to make you feel better? Or worse? Would that even work?

I had a look at that book on google: books. It's very cute, I love all the little pictures that go along to explain things.

[KuraiGaka]

Oh, no way! Hugs and cuddles made me scream even more! I don't quite know why. Sometimes, I don't like hugs and sometimes I do. I guess I just felt patronised if someone cuddled me or invaded. Funnily enough, I'm more intimate with dogs than people (I just mollycoddle them!).

[raulitech]

Austistic people are often highly intelligent and with a 'classic visual spatial peak'. Nervousneuron, check out youtube user silentmiaow and her 'recovering from autism' clips.

[nervousneuron]

I've seen those three videos with Laura in it. It's funny that people think that if you can talk you are not autistic.

(Oh, I mean funny in the 'weird, strange, unusual, suspicious' way rather than 'ha ha, it's so funny I can't stop laughing!)

[bk696]

I believe that any behavior that my autistic child may display that seems 'inappropriate' to others is simply his reactions to an environment that is odd to him, his way of stabalizing himself for 'balance'.

He's actually a rather 'laid back' and happy child, though he has his moments, just like any other child does. Several NT kids that I have been around are nowhere near as 'well behaved' as he is and that goes for alot of adults as well...

[bk696]

As for my NT child. He's LOVES his little brother and is very protective of him. Any disagreements they have is typical 'sibling rivalry'. My kids seem to forgive quickly and rarely hold grudges and it's nice to see that they can work out their differences without me having to step-in.

They're really great kids :)

[christschool]

NN, what is described in the Life article isn't tough love, its sadistic torture. Now, if we remove the autistic children from the images and put DS and CP children in their place, most people wouldn't think twice to call it torture.  But, when people see autistic faces, they see "normality", but there is no hidden NT inside autistics.

[christschool]

It's how people process the "face", if they can't see the difference, they don't believe it exists phenomenon and attribute the neurological difference to "bad" behavior. Or, some believe it must be some sort of poisoning because they can't visually reconcile the difference.

[MichaelFrankel]

Autistic kids just need a priest to exorcise the demons! My friend's little brother is a violet autistic who seems to like to inflict pain onto other people and animals. They keep him busy with task like playing sports and other things to tire him out and he seems to do pretty well as long as he gets lots of attention.

[christschool]

Some autistic children have undergone exorcisms and been killed in the process. Google autistic, exorcism, death and you'll see. Not anything to joke about.

[KuraiGaka]

Yes, I think I heard about a priest who sat on an autistic boy during a sermon and said he was praying to release evil spirits from him. The boy suffocated to death. I wonder why people care more about the ethical treatment of prisoners rather than the ethical treatment of children? Disgusting!

[CoolNASCARGuy]

Oh yeah. When I read the article about him in my local paper, I was real angry.

[christschool]

News from the Indiana paper's this week: [In the exorcism,] Swain said Uyesugi "forced the boy down, punched him in the face several times, put his fingers in the boy's throat, causing him to vomit."

"When the family objected, Uyesugi told them that the vomit was demons being cast out," Swain said.

[lilacpilgrim13]

I would consider that, not just abusive and violent but also perverted. Demons in the form of vomit? That's somehow very convienient! I mean, if demons are so easy to remove from the body, what are angels? Spit? Urine? Excretion?

No. If a person can do that to a child, they aren't helping them. Just fulfilling their sick fantasies...

[CoolNASCARGuy]

Uyesugi? Wait a minute, you aren't talking about the Wisconsin death, are you?