Find the site "Hebrew for Christians" and/or type into your search engine "Behold the Goat of God". You will find your answers there. Since the work is copyrighted, I am not posting a link in here, nor am I copying what was said in here. The different connections are layered much deeper than what your video scratches upon on the surface.
Seriously now, is that all you do with your time is TRY to disprove the Bible, well if it is then I would have to say "What a waste of LIfe". You will never, never prove God wrong. Blashemy will only get you...well, I think you know that.
Here's an idea: I suggest all humans unconsciously recognise the golden rule as a fundamental necessity for people who have to live with one another. They also know that to follow this rule will take a degree of self-sacrifice. I propose that every tradition of sacrifice--there are many, world-wide--including Christ's sacrifice--stems from an unconscious recognition of this need for self-sacrifice. (BTW Jesus, Paul, Peter and James all cite the golden rule.)
Nearly all scriptures that xtians and messy antics try to use for evidence that their pagan messiah existed, always turns out to be talking about ISRAEL or the relative of someone being spoken to. They use the same worn out scriptures taken out of context with the chapter or even the chapters before.You can always tell you're talking to someone who has not read the Tanak for themselves but only repeating what someone else preached.
Really I guess killing humans as a sacrifice is good if God says so. After all Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his human son. But this is ok because God changed his mind! He just wanted to see if he would do it. Because he was willing to do anything out of FEAR of God the biblical God spared him! Yuck No wonder there are so many atheist in the world! Why do people of today not find blood sacrifices to a god repugnant and primitive? !
RELIGION is so stupid! I look forward to it being gone!
Besides it seems that the Jewish and Christians are not saying the Bible is not a whore but instead Jews and Christians are just haggling over the price! The Christians think that sacrificing a human being to God and using his blood to wash away sins is reasonable. We are talking about real blood here! Not wafers and wine! Jews disagree and think it is reasonable to just use the blood of goats and bulls and to kill for God is only good for animals So murder or suicide is good but what kind?
Darn I know Jesus didn't fulfill the the Jewish law. So he isn't the messiah but did you have to use Psalm 49:7 ? How am I supposed to defend myself from bible thumpers threatening me for not believing in Jesus as the messiah using this verse? They are going to say I took it out of context. That the psalm wasn't saying that human blood can't pay for sins just that you can't by it with money argh! Psalm49:6They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
(cont'd) As this video states, Passover has nothing to do with atonement, but it DOES have to do with saving people from death. The blood from the sacrificed lamb protected the Hebrews from death, as the blood of the sacrificed Jesus protected his friends from death.
I think Jesus died to literally save the lives of his friends, in the mold of the "good shepherd" protecting his sheep from the wolf (John 10:11-18). Anyone else would have tried to run away, which is why he was unique, but if he had done that then his friends would have been the ones crucified, being that their group was identified as insurrectionary. It was the ultimate show of love and faith (John 15:13 "There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends.").
COMPARE: You Shall be Clean....to....Take Away and the fact that Yom Kippur was a yearly "MUST" Once sins are "Removed" due to the fact that "He Took away", you have no need for Yom Kippur.
I dont advocate religion. I stand as one that was transformed from misery into joy, and from hatred into love when I asked Jesus to take my life and do with it as he pleased.
Religion is mans abilities. I want to see Gods ability not my ability. Im done with my ability, Im grossed out with myself/ego and now enjoy the privelege of seeing God work in me and thru me forever. Hooyah!
And once again I ask believers ; What does a sacrificial ritual murder accomplish??? To apace an angry deity who wants to punish those who defied it? beyond that.. What does the brutal torture and murder of a human being accomplish???
@markimark202 The Servants Songs in Isaiah have nothing to do with Jesus. But even if they did, that has nothing to do with Christian misappropriation of Passover imagery and the fact that Passover had nothing to do with atonement for sins.
@ProfMTH "HE was pierced, for OUR transgressions," is this not clearly atonement? Was he not crushed for our iniquities? Did not his punishment, bring us peace? Did he not bear the sin of many? The Suffering Servant is all about the atonement. Yes. I know I'm deviating from the passover discussion, but ....The Suffering Servant IS Jesus :) You used to believe it, didn't you?
The passover lamb marked whom belonged to God whom did not. Christ our passover made distinction.Atonement for sin was not primary purpose of Christ dying it was appeasement of God's Nature. No appeasement, no taking away of sin The writer of Hebrews is saying blood of bull and goats could never take away sin, because it never appeased God.Jesus said this is blood of new covenant a new meaning to Passover. Not only selection, but appeasement.New covenant means new words of covenant to sacrifice
Despite the misguided beliefs of Christians, the Scriptures says that only YAH is the Savior not anyone else. Therefore, we dont need to be saved by any man, infact it says that human sacrifice is not acceptable to YAH!
Here's some other issues: Jews would no doubt find the whole idea of a man being God in the flesh to be utter blasphemy. The Messiah in Judaism also would not lead the Jewish people away from the Torah, not would he alter the Torah in any way.
God set up the atonement to be temporal until Christ came and established his Kingdom Dan. 2:44, its like when you buy something on CREDIT you pay monthly until you are done however when you keep buying on CREDIT you still owe. Same deal with Jewish law. In the other had God's plan was that the blood of CHRIST on the CROSS would nailed the debt fully and completely Col. 1:13, 2:14. For God so loved the sinners. John 3:16.
This cleansing of their sins was TEMPORAL because they had to do it yearly if they were cleaned completely they should have DONE IT ONCE. There is a difference to be clean for one and to be clean for ever. If you actually read the whole chapter of Hebrew 9 and 10 you will figure out that Jesus is used as a Lamb and scapegoat. A lamb who had to die and the scapegoat to represent our cleaning forever.
In "Jesus for the Non Religious," John Shelby Spong argues that early Christians built up a mythology around Jesus using imagery from BOTH Passover AND Yom Kippur. Jesus became the "lamb" whose sacrifice caused death to pass over his followers, and he became the "scapegoat" who took away the sins of the world. These references seem to have become conflated in our Gospels. Whether they began as distinct, parallel tracks in the attempt to mythologize Jesus is something we can only speculate on.
@mildmannrdreprtr "These references seem to have become conflated in our Gospels."
Well, it seems to me more correct to say that the references are conflated in the New Testament, not so much the gospels. In any case, Passover imagery is dominant.
The Messiah cannot trace his lineage through Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to both Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel.
It's amazing how Christians believe that God has to punish sin with death or else he would not be a just judge. So in order to remain just, he punishes someone who doesn't deserve punishment (Jesus) instead of just deciding not to punish someone who does deserve punishment (the rest of us sinful humans). Plus, such an act creates a theological loophole where the burden of sin is unjustly shifted onto Jesus.
2:37 you've missed context again. This portion of a psalm is speaking about the fact that whether a man is rich or poor, neither can live forever - in other words, everyone dies. No one can pay a ransom for anyone which allows them to cheat death.
@ProfMTH As for the "Lamb of God" having nothing to do with forgiveness; if you remember the account of the first Passover accurately (Exodus 12), it was the SACRIFICE OF A LAMB, who's blood was painted on the door's posts that kept the plague from falling on your house; "I will pass over you (the Hebrew meaning "spare" or "protect") and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt." It was the blood of the Lamb of God that "spares" us eternal separation.
@ProfMTH No Yeshua didn't pay any amount of money to ransom anyone. Context is vital. The passage you refer to is speaking of rich & poor (monetary wealth vs lack thereof).
@ProfMTH No. The passage has nothing what so ever to do with a person being executed or even about sins. It's actually a very simple to understand passage - very straightforward. The entire context shows that he is saying everyone dies and there is no amount of money on earth that could ever be paid to anyone which would allow a person to literally live forever (to cheat physical death).
@BornInTzyon Thank you for pointing out context:) The preluding scriptures:
"Why should I fear in times of trouble, when the iniquity of those who cheat me surrounds me, those who trust in their wealth and boast of the abundance of their riches? Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit."
These scriptures IN O WAY contradict Christ's sacrifice.
@peartkyle You're welcome and I agree...unfortunately I've also been guilty myself, in the past, of taking things entirely out of context to fit an idea or teaching that I wanted to be true. We live & learn that way I guess. Shalom.
Apparently God is so pissy when we sin, that he has to make us feel pissy as well. But he decided to put all his pissiness into Jesus, who felt really pissy when he was crucified.
This is why context is vital to consider. 2:05 Quite the opposite is true! See Heb 9:2 "the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." The writer is correct, the blood doesn't take away the uncircumcised heart which continually sins. The grace of YHVH removes sin tho' sacrifice is required. What He desires is not sacrifice, but a circumcised heart made available through the new covenant (Yirm 31:31-33, Heb 10:16)
There are at least 100 more I could list, but is getting late and I type slow. If you really want to know truth you will ask GOD to reveal it to you and he will be faithful to show you. YESHUA was rejected by people then and its obvious he is still being rejected today. YESHUA said "many are called, few will come", rest assured every knee will bow and declare HE is LORD.
@ProfMTH I completely agree w/your response about sacrifice for unintentional sin. I've heard people claim this too. It's clearly not the case b/c in these particular circumstances, it was offered for particular offenses only. As far as Avraham, he wasn't "saved by faith" rather his faith was accounted to him as righteousness. B'reshit/Gen 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, & He credited it to him as righteousness." When reading about his life you see that this belief resulted in action.
Have GOD's own name applied to him, Isaiah 9:5-7, Jeremiah 23:5-6, fulfillment, Philippians 2:9-11. Come 69x7 years(483 years) after the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem, Daniel 9:24-26, fulfillment Matthew 2:1, 2:16-19, Luke 3:1, 3:23. Be born of a virgin, Isiah 7:14, fulfillment Matthew 1:18, 2:1, Luke 1:26-35. He would be born in Bethlahem, Micah 5:1-2, fulfillment, Matthew 2:1, Luke 2:4-7. He would be adored by great persons, Psalms 72:10-11, fulfillment Matthew 2:1-11 .....
to be the decendant of Judah, Genesis 49:10, fulfillment Matthew 1:2-3, Luke 3:33, Hebrews 7:14. To be the decendant of David and heir to the throne, 2 Samuel 7:12-13, Isaiah 9:6-7, 11:1-5, Jerimiah 23:5, fulfillment Matthew 1:1-6, Acts 13:22-23, Romans 1:3. Have eternal existence, Micah 5:1-2, fulfillment John 1:1, 1:14, 8:58, Ephesians 1:3-4, Colossians 1:15-19, Revelations 1:18. Be the Son of GOD, Psalm 2:7, Proverbs 30:4, fulfillment Matthew 3:17, Luke 1:32...
The seed of the woman that would bruise or crush the serpents head, Genesis 3:15, fulfillment, Galatians 4:4; 1st John 3:8. To be the seed of Abraham Genesis 12:3, fulfillment, Matthew 1:2, Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16. To be the seed of Isaac, Genesis 17:19 & 21:12, fulfillment, Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Hebrews 11:17-19. To be the seed of Jacob and the star out of Jacob who will have dominion, Genesis 28:14, Numbers 24:17,19, fulfillment Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Revelations 22:16 ....
First of all, there was no sin offering for intentional sin only offerings for un-intentional sin. There wasnt an offering for intentional sin because the entire BIBLE was about how GOD was going to have his messiah be the sacrifice. We all are atoned for by faith. Even Abraham was saved by faith, not sacrifice. Faith in YESHUA of Nazereth, GOD incarnate in the flesh. As far as scripture that validates his credentials, read my following posts....
Romans 5:11"& not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now recieved ATONEMENT." It was done on Passover because it was for the "sins if the world" not just the sins of the Jews. Lamb's blood was put on the door posts in Egypt when the "angel of death" was going through & it would passover any house with it on it's door posts. Today, your heart is your door posts & if the Blood of Jesus isn't on it, you are not saved. ONLY JESUS SAVES!!!
@wayinoutreach "Because 'death' has no sting any more for the believers!! Jesus conquered death on the Cross, for ALL who believe in Him!!"
Not responsive to my question. You're merely repeating one version of the Christian appropriation of Passover to give meaning to Jesus' execution. You haven't explained your claim at all.
@ProfMTH You are the one misquoting. You take a Jewish ritual between them & God & try to put it between all men & God. "Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the SINS OF THE WORLD. Since the Blood of the Lamb was placed on the door posts in Egypt Passover was celebrated because DEATH PASSED OVER. Get it??? Death now passed over all TRUE BELIEVERS. Again, Rom.5:11 says so!! Also, God's greatest accomplishment wasn't creation, it was the REDEMPTION OF MAN & that's what really bugs Satan. & U??
I didn't say anything about misquoting. And I certainly haven't misquoted anything. It would be useful if you could at least *try* to stick with the actual matters being discussed here.
"You take a Jewish ritual between them & God & try to put it between all men & God."
That's precisely what you and loads of Christians before you--going back to the earliest days of the Jesus movement--have tried to do with Passover.
@ProfMTH So in 2011, suddenly u are right with yr interpretation? Romans 5:11"& not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now recieved the ATONEMENT." Do you even know what the word ATONEMENT means? John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, & saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Also Ex.12:13 , Isaiah 53:7, 1 Peter 1:19, Rev.5:6. The Jews still have their day of Atonement & bull, they just can't do it.
@ProfMTH I have refuted what you have said & I did it with Scripture. Your NON-ACCEPTANCE of it doesn't invalidate it in any way shape or form. It just shows how THICK the scales over your eyes actually are.!! You will probably stand at the White Throne of Judgment & argue with God that you aren't really there either!!
You should really learn to read whole Passages instead one sentence within a paragraph lol
Hebrews 10 make it clear the These sacrifices did not permenantly Atone for sins like Jesus did. Atonements had to continue each year. God told Abraham he would one day Provide a Lamb for Sacrifce and in the Meantime had other animals other than a lamb ordered for sacrifice which is Why he provided a ram instead. Jesus is the Only lamb of God which takes away all sins forever.
@ahmalala "You should really learn to read whole Passages instead one sentence within a paragraph lol"
And you should find a new line that has basis in reality. I always read the entire passage, but I'm amazed at how many apologists will invoke "context" as if it were a talisman that makes all the problems go away. I'm starting to think that the apologists who do this most frequently are the most weak-minded of the lot.
(con't) @ahmalala "Hebrews 10 make it clear the These sacrifices did not permenantly Atone for sins...."
Yes, I know. I didn't say anything different. But since you invoke context, you do well to follow your own advice by recalling that one of the main themes of Hebrews is that Jewish Law generally & its sacrificial system in particular, which in the Jewish scriptures Yahweh says were perfect & made people righteous, were merely a "shadow of the good things to come and not the very form...
(con't) ...of things" (Hebrews 10:1). The writer to the Hebrews is quite clear in saying that the sacrificial system did not and indeed *could* not do what it was purported to do. It was just some preshow in anticipation of the execution of Jesus.
"God told Abraham he would one day Provide a Lamb for Sacrifce"
Passage?
"Jesus is the Only lamb of God which takes away all sins forever."
Passover lambs had NOTHING to do with atonement for sin. Nothing.
@ProfMTH "Passover lambs had NOTHING to do with atonement for sin. Nothing."
Go to Biblegateway. Search the Word "lamb" they where used for atonement or sin offerings all the time.
“If, however, they are poor and cannot afford these, they must take one male lamb as a guilt offering to be waved to make atonement for them" Lev 14:21
@ProfMTH "by your own admission, he wasn't a priest "in the order of" it. " You truly cannot read. I said he Was A HIGH PRIEST, just not in the order of Arron, The old new covenant order and new ones are different. God would provide his lamb for the New covenant not the old. Wise up :)
@ProfMTH God himself would provide a Lamb Genesis 22:8 Jesus was a High priest in the order of Melchizedek as stated in Hebrews. Melchizedek appeared to Abraham with Bread and wine symbolizing the Future passover the Last supper for which Jesus would be the passover lamb. Genesis 14:18
@ahmalala "God himself would provide a Lamb Genesis 22:8."
You quote Abraham's diversionary statement to his soon-to-be burnt offering son as a prediction of Jesus as the lamb of your god? Oy vey. The desperation of apologists.
@ProfMTH Obviously you cant read lol. He(Abraham) said God Would provide the Lamb. Not He(abraham) Would provide the lamb. You see He knew he wouldnt really have to sacrifice his Son because of God's promises. He trusted God. You should learn to do the same :)
Obviously, you are delusional and desperate to shoehorn reference to Jesus into as many parts of the Jewish scriptures as possible regardless of how poorly they fit and ridiculous they are.
@ProfMTH 1st reference to Jesus in in Gen.1:26 "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness,..." 2nd mention is Gen.3:15"I will put emnity between thee & the woman, & between they seed & HER SEED." That is the only reference to a woman having seed, because it was refering to Jesus being born to a virgin. God puts Jesus in the Old & New Testaments. They are all HIS WORD. John 1:1"In the beginning was the WORD & the WORD was with God & the WORD was God." By Him were all things made.....
@metal4life68 I'm reposting the comment of yours that you deleted: "Why should I believe any of this video. It's someone right not want to believe in God. The difference Christ and the bible has made in life is enough for me. If I wouldn't have accepted Christ in my life I know I would have self destructed and have already been physically dead not mention spiritually. I pray you find peace."
You should believe the video because it presents facts. If you'd prefer fantasy, don't believe it.
@rbmath "your problem is your refusal to honestly study ALL the scriptures on a topic. your hatred for God is blinding you."
If you ever have something of substance to offer, be sure to let me know. If, as it seems, the above-quoted is the best you can do, you shouldn't waste my time or yours with it. It doesn't refute one bit of the argument I've laid out in the video and makes you look like extremely silly.
@ProfMTH ... RE: you look like extremely silly.. No.. you just prove your unwillingness to honestly study ALL the scriptures on a topic. Just point out your great lack of honesty and biblical understanding is enough for me since I hardly doubt your willing to admit to be being wrong until God has mercy on you.
@rbmath Feel free to present a refutation of the case I have laid out in the video. Beating your chest and asserting that I'm being dishonest and all the rest of the gibberish you've been posting does NOTHING to establish that the case I've laid out in this video is wrong. In short, put up or shut up.
@ProfMTH your reasoning is flawed. IF your false views had any chance Paul the apostle Paul, a former Pharisee who knew Jewish law a lot better than you or I did would have seen it.
@rbmath "I have 2000 years of church history to back me up."
I wasn't aware that "church history" is infallible. Again, you need an argument, not an appeal to authority. You do love the logical fallacies.
"Your reasoning is flawed."
HOW?! HOW IS MY REASONING FLAWED? BE SPECIFIC! If you cannot be specific, just say so because I'm about done wasting my time reading these baseless assertions & logical fallacies of yours.
@ProfMTH The passover ceremony was a reminder of God's deliverance from being slaves in Egypt, Exo 12:26, Exo 13:3,14, Deu 4:9. God redeeming His people. it pictured Christ redeeming His people from being slaves to sin Joh 8:34, Rom 3:23. Christ our deliverance from our "spiritual Egypt" Joh 8:36. RE:Appeal to authority.. At least they UNDERSTAND what they are talking about, where you have no clue.
@ProfMTH. So you know that answer. you just not honest enough to admit your wrong. Once again its your natural hatred for God that shines through your propaganda
@rbmath " you just not honest enough to admit your wrong"
I'm not wrong. You made my point for me--the very point I make in the video. Passover had NOTHING to do with atonement for and forgiveness of sin, but Christians appropriated its imagery. Why? Because Jesus' death didn't actually fulfill the Law vis-a-vis atonement and forgiveness.
@ProfMTH Your wrong. and may God open your mind before its too late... 1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
@straygypsy.. RE:Joseph wasn't jesus's natural father.. Joseph WAS NOT Jesus natural father. about the rest of your post I have NO idea what your talking about and I could careless. 1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
So, you want people to believe an atheist 2Co 2:14, over what the apostle John and the apostle Paul, a former Pharisee who was killing Christians believed that Jesus WAS OUR PASSOVER.
@rbmath It seems you didn't pay attention to the video. I haven't contested the New Testament's saying "Jesus WAS OUR PASSOVER." Rather, my argument goes to the fact that Passover has nothing to do with atonement for and forgiveness of sins. You should pay attention.
"you want people to believe an atheist...over...the apostle John and the apostle Paul"
Your ad hominem and appeal to authority are duly noted.
@RepresentingTruth Please don't do a video response....he's just going to tear it to shreds and you will end up embarrassing anyone that believes that Jesus is the Messiah. No offense intended, but he's fairly intelligent and seems to be able to discuss things better than you. Not that I don't agree....I just don't think it wise to argue with people that don't believe He is the Messiah....it doesn't usually do anything but make it worse. Shalom and much love.
@jonahofakron Well I have already on the virgin birth question. My purpose is not to convince him. My purpose in my videos is to show that Christians can respond. Did you check out my response to the virgin birth question? BTW I do have one advantage. One of the guys at our church was Jewish and I have already talked to him about it. I would probably have him look at it before I would respond. I may or may not but I am not afraid to do so. Thanks
@jonahofakron Your welcome. Maybe I allow you to see a rough draft before I put it up. Tell me what is strong and what is weak and that could be a help. Let me know.
This video is a joke. The day of atonement only covered their sins for another year. It was like a credit card that carried the balance until it was paid in full by Jesus. Let me spoon feed something to you. Jesus himself said thy sins be forgiven thee. Tell me Mr. know it all was that on the day of atonement? No, and the thief on the cross was also forgiven. Nice try but you mockery does not work with me and Jesus will set you straight at the judgment.
@RepresentingTruth "Well I guess I am a threat to you since you cannot refute me."
Refute you? You ignored the argument presented in the video in favor of merely noting that the Yom Kippur atonement ritual was a yearly event. So was the Passover, but of course the Passover had nothing to do with sin--and Passover having nothing to do with sin is the issue here. So, no, you're not a threat. You're hilarious. Although, sadly, it seems you can't or won't deal with the actual argument made.
@ProfMTH Thank you for responding. I do enjoy your mockery and do enjoy showing your error. Christ is our passover. Even you bring that out. I will make it easy for you to understand. The same one that is called our passover is the same one that was the once and for all sacrificed for our sins. Heb. 10:1-14 So passover is a type and shadow of the real being Jesus Christ. See Heb. chapter 9 Recap Passover = Jesus sacrifice = you failed. Nice chatting with you.
@ProfMTH He that hath ears to hear let him hear. Okay I will go a little slower for you. You state Christ is our passover right? I clearly gave you references that Christ paid for our sins. Now Christ as our passover paid for our sins. How can you say passover has nothing to do with sin when CHRIST OUR PASSOVER PAID FOR OUR SINS? That is like saying BP had nothing to do with the BP oil spill.
@RepresentingTruth "You state Christ is our passover right? I clearly gave you references that Christ paid for our sins. Now Christ as our passover paid for our sins."
You may repeat this as many times as you like. Repetition will not change the fact that Passover had NOTHING TO DO WITH REMISSION OF SINS. N O T H I N G! Dying on Passover does not fulfill the Law with respect to remission of sins.
@ProfMTH This is my body which is broken for you. This is the blood of the New Covenant. I guess that means nothing to you. I think a video response would be the best. I am finding that I may not have time at this moment but I will consider it in the future.
@RepresentingTruth "This is my body which is broken for you. This is the blood of the New Covenant. I guess that means nothing to you."
As I said in the video, it's an appropriation of Passover symbols in order to make them about something they were never about, i.e., the remission of sins. Again, you make my point for me.
@jonahofakron "Doesn't it have to do with death 'passing over' those that accept the blood?"
Not exactly. The blood on the door post was a sign to the angel of death that the house was a Hebrew dwelling and, therefore, the firstborn in the house should not be killed. It had nothing to do with sin or atonement for it. And only the firstborn were the target of the plague.
@ProfMTH Is it possible that you have missed the point and gone off on a tangent? Kinda hard to believe that everyone up to this point have gotten it so wrong. Why didn't the Jews point this out to the Christians long ago?
If there was one thing I could pick from the entire bible to prove Jesus wasn't God, it is this. Nicely done. What's more evident is how Christians are responding to it. If your best counter-argument is that "it doesn't matter" or "you are going to burn in hell" then you seriously need to consider what you believe, because those aren't arguments. Instead of damning someone to hell, how about explain why he is wrong. It's a better way of getting your position across.
This is a really weak arguement. I don't see how you can make such a bold statement based off of it. I am not sure if you are an Atheist or what your agenda is. I am sure that Biblical Scholars and Theologians would have figured this out by now and mentioned it, if it is that big of a deal, which either way, it's not. Not a million men can discredit God or Scripture, let alone one. You could posess the knowledge and wisdom of God if you really wanted to, then you would see.
@TeaMaster1978 "I am not sure if you are an Atheist or what your agenda is."
What does it matter? An argument stands or falls on its merits, regardless of who is making and what, if anything, his or her agenda may be. So you would do well to support your unargued assertion that my argument is "really weak" with some specifics that refute it. Short of that, you've merely expressed a baseless opinion. Thanks.
@ProfMTH=You're an Anti-Christ, the Bible makes it definitely and absolutely clear in 1 John 2:22 who every says that Yeshua (JESUS) is not the Messiah is a liar and therefore is an Anti-Christ and reject both God the Father and God the Son. The Bible code from Isaiah 53 reveals the Messiah's name is Yeshua, you keep stating that Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with Him you will surely die in your sins and you will suffer eternal damnation.
@blacksand27 If you're a believer, be careful when you say he wasn't a man: 1 john 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
"flesh" means a man prone to sin. concordance it if you don't believe.
ALso, the passover lamb was actually an Egyptian deity. In sacrificing the lamb, they were sacrificing egypts false idols. The hebrews were even scared to do this in front of the egyptians, but that was the test that God was giving them, to see if they trusted Him. "And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?" exo 8:26
@blacksand27 thats interesting that jesus will say " The wounds I was given at the house of my friends" (zac 13), since it is a chapter on false prophets
Really? 1 Timothy 2:5 is an odd passage then, isn't it--that whole business about "the MAN Christ Jesus" (emphasis added)? You might want to look up the "hypostatic union." It's kind of a big deal in most Christian circles.
(con't) @blacksand27 "one day Jesus will show up as King and priest and my Jewish brother will ask the Messiah `where did you get thoese marks ` and he will say I got them in the house of my friend"
You should watch my "Jesus Was Not the Messiah" video. It deals with that purported "prophecy" and shows how Christians have blatantly abused that text from Zechariah--a text that is about a false prophet.
@ProfMTH - he was made fully man in flesh & mind, but was an incarnation from God down to man. He remained inwardly as God, but was made to bear and be human so as to righteously pay the sin in full forever
@ProfMTH I was writing about the whole thing the churches lie the authors lie the publishers lie etc. Being more informed about the subject than it's conspirators is the only way to convince anyone, and you've done a good job.
I always thought just as the Passover lamb represented the transition between slavery and freedom of the Isrealites; Jesus as the spiritual lamb represented the transition from slavery of sin to freedom of life. I equate the blood of Jesus with the Old Testiment blood used to wash away sins. No matter the process, only God can cleanse one of sins. Following blood rituals was an indication of love and respect for God. God reciprocated by cleansing man of their sins.
@msudlp "I always thought just as the Passover lamb represented the transition between slavery and freedom of the Isrealites; Jesus as the spiritual lamb represented the transition from slavery of sin to freedom of life."
Which is an appropriation of Passover imagery, not a fulfillment of anything.
At 2:41 your use of Psalm 42:7 is out of context. Start at verse 5, where a hypothetical question is posed:
"Why should I fear when evil days come, when whicked deceivers surround me - those [wicked] who trust in their WEALTH and boast of their GREAT RICHES?"
(Then verse 7) "No one [in context of WEALTH] can redeem the life of another or give to God a [payment] for [lives]."
Note, payment is not "impossible", but (verse 8) "The ransom for a life is costly. No [money] is ever enough."
@jpmay26 First, it's Psalm 49, not Psalm 42. Second, note that verse 7 say "No man can BY ANY MEANS." That's not limited to money by either the context or the language of the specific passage. Third, your rewording of verse 7, while clever and convenient, is just that: a rewording. The word translated as "ransom" (no one can "give to God a ransom for him") is not limited to money. Verse 8 says people should "cease trying forever" to do this. No human sacrifice can redeem.
@ProfMTH (You're correct on the Chapter. I was working from memory, but you're still incorrect)
"No man by any MEANS"...the Hebrew word used is "yif Deh" from the word "paw Daw", which means either "redeem or redemption price", is a financial term used, just like OUR word "means" can also be used financially, as in "living above one's means".
Our word "Ransom" is English. Yet "Kaferov" (the Hebrew word used) is where we get "coffer".
As I'm sure you know Passover was when the hebrews in Egypt killed a lamb and put the blood on the door as a symbol of God's people and so punishment passes them by.
Could it be this that Paul is meaning?
As for a man being able to take away sin, many/all Christians believe Christ was fully God too.
@coolbanana165 "As I'm sure you know Passover was when the hebrews in Egypt killed a lamb and put the blood on the door as a symbol of God's people and so punishment passes them by."
Actually, that's not what the blood on the door was about. See, e.g., Exodus 12. The lamb's blood was put on the door to signal to Yahweh (or his angel of death) that Hebrews lived in the dwelling and, therefore, Yahweh's final plague on the Egyptians--i.e., the killing of the first born--would not mistakenly...
(con't) @coolbanana165 ...hit a Hebrew home. The Hebrews had nothing to be punished for in the story, and the killing of the Passover lamb had nothing to do with sin.
"As for a man being able to take away sin, many/all Christians believe Christ was fully God too."
Indeed. But it was Jesus qua human being--"the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ" (Hebrews 10:10)--that the New Testament claims got the job done.
Find the site "Hebrew for Christians" and/or type into your search engine "Behold the Goat of God". You will find your answers there. Since the work is copyrighted, I am not posting a link in here, nor am I copying what was said in here. The different connections are layered much deeper than what your video scratches upon on the surface.
GodHasNOMother 2 weeks ago
@GodHasNOMother You will find it on the site under sub heading "Holidays" and if you go there it is called: Further Thoughts for Yom Kippur.
GodHasNOMother 2 weeks ago
So...the price of sin is death...or one goat?
ChakraKnot 3 weeks ago
@ChakraKnot Depends on which text one views as authoritative. ;-)
ProfMTH 2 weeks ago
Seriously now, is that all you do with your time is TRY to disprove the Bible, well if it is then I would have to say "What a waste of LIfe". You will never, never prove God wrong. Blashemy will only get you...well, I think you know that.
followgood 3 weeks ago
@followgood "Seriously now, is that all you do with your time is TRY to disprove the Bible...."
No. But even if it were, you'd still have to deal with the merits of the argument, which you have attempted to avoid in a most ham-handed way.
ProfMTH 2 weeks ago
Here's an idea: I suggest all humans unconsciously recognise the golden rule as a fundamental necessity for people who have to live with one another. They also know that to follow this rule will take a degree of self-sacrifice. I propose that every tradition of sacrifice--there are many, world-wide--including Christ's sacrifice--stems from an unconscious recognition of this need for self-sacrifice. (BTW Jesus, Paul, Peter and James all cite the golden rule.)
NevilleRhysBarnes 1 month ago
No One can atone for another... read EZEK 18 ... the whole chapter.
BassicPeach 2 months ago
Nearly all scriptures that xtians and messy antics try to use for evidence that their pagan messiah existed, always turns out to be talking about ISRAEL or the relative of someone being spoken to. They use the same worn out scriptures taken out of context with the chapter or even the chapters before.You can always tell you're talking to someone who has not read the Tanak for themselves but only repeating what someone else preached.
BassicPeach 2 months ago
Really I guess killing humans as a sacrifice is good if God says so. After all Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his human son. But this is ok because God changed his mind! He just wanted to see if he would do it. Because he was willing to do anything out of FEAR of God the biblical God spared him! Yuck No wonder there are so many atheist in the world! Why do people of today not find blood sacrifices to a god repugnant and primitive? !
RELIGION is so stupid! I look forward to it being gone!
brgordon38 2 months ago
Besides it seems that the Jewish and Christians are not saying the Bible is not a whore but instead Jews and Christians are just haggling over the price! The Christians think that sacrificing a human being to God and using his blood to wash away sins is reasonable. We are talking about real blood here! Not wafers and wine! Jews disagree and think it is reasonable to just use the blood of goats and bulls and to kill for God is only good for animals So murder or suicide is good but what kind?
brgordon38 2 months ago
Darn I know Jesus didn't fulfill the the Jewish law. So he isn't the messiah but did you have to use Psalm 49:7 ? How am I supposed to defend myself from bible thumpers threatening me for not believing in Jesus as the messiah using this verse? They are going to say I took it out of context. That the psalm wasn't saying that human blood can't pay for sins just that you can't by it with money argh! Psalm49:6They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
brgordon38 2 months ago
(cont'd) As this video states, Passover has nothing to do with atonement, but it DOES have to do with saving people from death. The blood from the sacrificed lamb protected the Hebrews from death, as the blood of the sacrificed Jesus protected his friends from death.
KayBeeEee1983 3 months ago
I think Jesus died to literally save the lives of his friends, in the mold of the "good shepherd" protecting his sheep from the wolf (John 10:11-18). Anyone else would have tried to run away, which is why he was unique, but if he had done that then his friends would have been the ones crucified, being that their group was identified as insurrectionary. It was the ultimate show of love and faith (John 15:13 "There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends.").
KayBeeEee1983 3 months ago
COMPARE: You Shall be Clean....to....Take Away and the fact that Yom Kippur was a yearly "MUST" Once sins are "Removed" due to the fact that "He Took away", you have no need for Yom Kippur.
RM77MKII 3 months ago
In the picture jesus got six pack Abs.
he was a bodybuilder besides the mesiah?
Ha ha ha.
DesIlluminatti 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I dont advocate religion. I stand as one that was transformed from misery into joy, and from hatred into love when I asked Jesus to take my life and do with it as he pleased.
Religion is mans abilities. I want to see Gods ability not my ability. Im done with my ability, Im grossed out with myself/ego and now enjoy the privelege of seeing God work in me and thru me forever. Hooyah!
j919or 3 months ago
And once again I ask believers ; What does a sacrificial ritual murder accomplish??? To apace an angry deity who wants to punish those who defied it? beyond that.. What does the brutal torture and murder of a human being accomplish???
The answer ; nothing!! Nothing at all.
shinoharataro 3 months ago
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed..
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin...
For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53, The Suffering Servant)
markimark202 4 months ago
@markimark202 The Servants Songs in Isaiah have nothing to do with Jesus. But even if they did, that has nothing to do with Christian misappropriation of Passover imagery and the fact that Passover had nothing to do with atonement for sins.
ProfMTH 4 months ago 4
@ProfMTH "HE was pierced, for OUR transgressions," is this not clearly atonement? Was he not crushed for our iniquities? Did not his punishment, bring us peace? Did he not bear the sin of many? The Suffering Servant is all about the atonement. Yes. I know I'm deviating from the passover discussion, but ....The Suffering Servant IS Jesus :) You used to believe it, didn't you?
markimark202 4 months ago
@markimark202 " The Suffering Servant is all about the atonement."
As I said, the Servants Songs in Isaiah have nothing to do with Jesus. See my "Jesus Was Not the Messiah" series.
"You used to believe it, didn't you?"
I did.
ProfMTH 4 months ago
@ProfMTH what happened?
conraddoavil 3 months ago
@markimark202 So much words, but still no answer to the real question...
Doctordbergambacht 2 months ago
@markimark202
in order:
-so what about when he said the wine was his blood?
-and god needed to kill his boy to do that?
-if jesus needed to die, then when heorid came, why did they run?
-so what happened to hebrews who got injured and healed BEFORE jesus came?
-what a nice dad
-WHY did he need his child to under what he caused and have him die to do it?
-If he's the son of a god who is perfect, how can he take it onto himself?
infernalone666 1 month ago
The passover lamb marked whom belonged to God whom did not. Christ our passover made distinction.Atonement for sin was not primary purpose of Christ dying it was appeasement of God's Nature. No appeasement, no taking away of sin The writer of Hebrews is saying blood of bull and goats could never take away sin, because it never appeased God.Jesus said this is blood of new covenant a new meaning to Passover. Not only selection, but appeasement.New covenant means new words of covenant to sacrifice
polopowers1 5 months ago
Despite the misguided beliefs of Christians, the Scriptures says that only YAH is the Savior not anyone else. Therefore, we dont need to be saved by any man, infact it says that human sacrifice is not acceptable to YAH!
asayal6 5 months ago
WOOT! Nice to know where "scapegoat" came from :)
bebopbountyhead 5 months ago
@bebopbountyhead :-)
ProfMTH 5 months ago
Here's some other issues: Jews would no doubt find the whole idea of a man being God in the flesh to be utter blasphemy. The Messiah in Judaism also would not lead the Jewish people away from the Torah, not would he alter the Torah in any way.
Akira625 6 months ago
God set up the atonement to be temporal until Christ came and established his Kingdom Dan. 2:44, its like when you buy something on CREDIT you pay monthly until you are done however when you keep buying on CREDIT you still owe. Same deal with Jewish law. In the other had God's plan was that the blood of CHRIST on the CROSS would nailed the debt fully and completely Col. 1:13, 2:14. For God so loved the sinners. John 3:16.
xdeltomx 7 months ago
This cleansing of their sins was TEMPORAL because they had to do it yearly if they were cleaned completely they should have DONE IT ONCE. There is a difference to be clean for one and to be clean for ever. If you actually read the whole chapter of Hebrew 9 and 10 you will figure out that Jesus is used as a Lamb and scapegoat. A lamb who had to die and the scapegoat to represent our cleaning forever.
xdeltomx 7 months ago
In "Jesus for the Non Religious," John Shelby Spong argues that early Christians built up a mythology around Jesus using imagery from BOTH Passover AND Yom Kippur. Jesus became the "lamb" whose sacrifice caused death to pass over his followers, and he became the "scapegoat" who took away the sins of the world. These references seem to have become conflated in our Gospels. Whether they began as distinct, parallel tracks in the attempt to mythologize Jesus is something we can only speculate on.
mildmannrdreprtr 8 months ago
@mildmannrdreprtr "These references seem to have become conflated in our Gospels."
Well, it seems to me more correct to say that the references are conflated in the New Testament, not so much the gospels. In any case, Passover imagery is dominant.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
This is interesting - I found this using google.
Evidently Jesus came from a line that was cursed.
The Messiah cannot trace his lineage through Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to both Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel.
doobdoob2 8 months ago
It's amazing how Christians believe that God has to punish sin with death or else he would not be a just judge. So in order to remain just, he punishes someone who doesn't deserve punishment (Jesus) instead of just deciding not to punish someone who does deserve punishment (the rest of us sinful humans). Plus, such an act creates a theological loophole where the burden of sin is unjustly shifted onto Jesus.
Vicarious redemption is the OPPOSITE of justice.
Ledwix 9 months ago
2:37 you've missed context again. This portion of a psalm is speaking about the fact that whether a man is rich or poor, neither can live forever - in other words, everyone dies. No one can pay a ransom for anyone which allows them to cheat death.
BornInTzyon 9 months ago
@BornInTzyon "No one can pay a ransom for anyone which allows them to cheat death."
Well, you believe Jesus can (and *did*) pay that ransom, don't you?
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH As for the "Lamb of God" having nothing to do with forgiveness; if you remember the account of the first Passover accurately (Exodus 12), it was the SACRIFICE OF A LAMB, who's blood was painted on the door's posts that kept the plague from falling on your house; "I will pass over you (the Hebrew meaning "spare" or "protect") and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt." It was the blood of the Lamb of God that "spares" us eternal separation.
peartkyle 9 months ago
@peartkyle Did the Passover lamb in Exodus atone for sin?
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@peartkyle Still waiting for your response, Peartkyle. Did the Passover lamb in Exodus atone for sin?
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH No Yeshua didn't pay any amount of money to ransom anyone. Context is vital. The passage you refer to is speaking of rich & poor (monetary wealth vs lack thereof).
BornInTzyon 9 months ago
@BornInTzyon So you believe that passage allows for a ransom for sins by a human being getting executed?
ProfMTH 9 months ago 2
@ProfMTH No. The passage has nothing what so ever to do with a person being executed or even about sins. It's actually a very simple to understand passage - very straightforward. The entire context shows that he is saying everyone dies and there is no amount of money on earth that could ever be paid to anyone which would allow a person to literally live forever (to cheat physical death).
BornInTzyon 9 months ago
@BornInTzyon Thank you for pointing out context:) The preluding scriptures:
"Why should I fear in times of trouble, when the iniquity of those who cheat me surrounds me, those who trust in their wealth and boast of the abundance of their riches? Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit."
These scriptures IN O WAY contradict Christ's sacrifice.
peartkyle 9 months ago
@peartkyle You're welcome and I agree...unfortunately I've also been guilty myself, in the past, of taking things entirely out of context to fit an idea or teaching that I wanted to be true. We live & learn that way I guess. Shalom.
BornInTzyon 9 months ago
@peartkyle So sacrificing himself to himself makes sense to you??
atheistram 9 months ago 10
@atheistram
Apparently God is so pissy when we sin, that he has to make us feel pissy as well. But he decided to put all his pissiness into Jesus, who felt really pissy when he was crucified.
Mectrixctic 5 months ago
@Mectrixctic lol... yep. :D
atheistram 5 months ago
This is why context is vital to consider. 2:05 Quite the opposite is true! See Heb 9:2 "the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." The writer is correct, the blood doesn't take away the uncircumcised heart which continually sins. The grace of YHVH removes sin tho' sacrifice is required. What He desires is not sacrifice, but a circumcised heart made available through the new covenant (Yirm 31:31-33, Heb 10:16)
BornInTzyon 9 months ago
@BornInTzyon AMEN!!
peartkyle 9 months ago
There are at least 100 more I could list, but is getting late and I type slow. If you really want to know truth you will ask GOD to reveal it to you and he will be faithful to show you. YESHUA was rejected by people then and its obvious he is still being rejected today. YESHUA said "many are called, few will come", rest assured every knee will bow and declare HE is LORD.
Torahkeeper007 9 months ago
@Torahkeeper007 "First of all, there was no sin offering for intentional sin only offerings for un-intentional sin."
See, e.g., Leviticus 6:1-7. Do you believe deceiving another, cheating another, and/or falsely swearing are unintentional acts?
"Even Abraham was saved by faith...."
James 2:20-24 says otherwise.
As far as Jesus' "credentials", have a look at my "Jesus Was Not the Messiah" series.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH I completely agree w/your response about sacrifice for unintentional sin. I've heard people claim this too. It's clearly not the case b/c in these particular circumstances, it was offered for particular offenses only. As far as Avraham, he wasn't "saved by faith" rather his faith was accounted to him as righteousness. B'reshit/Gen 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, & He credited it to him as righteousness." When reading about his life you see that this belief resulted in action.
BornInTzyon 9 months ago
Have GOD's own name applied to him, Isaiah 9:5-7, Jeremiah 23:5-6, fulfillment, Philippians 2:9-11. Come 69x7 years(483 years) after the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem, Daniel 9:24-26, fulfillment Matthew 2:1, 2:16-19, Luke 3:1, 3:23. Be born of a virgin, Isiah 7:14, fulfillment Matthew 1:18, 2:1, Luke 1:26-35. He would be born in Bethlahem, Micah 5:1-2, fulfillment, Matthew 2:1, Luke 2:4-7. He would be adored by great persons, Psalms 72:10-11, fulfillment Matthew 2:1-11 .....
Torahkeeper007 9 months ago
to be the decendant of Judah, Genesis 49:10, fulfillment Matthew 1:2-3, Luke 3:33, Hebrews 7:14. To be the decendant of David and heir to the throne, 2 Samuel 7:12-13, Isaiah 9:6-7, 11:1-5, Jerimiah 23:5, fulfillment Matthew 1:1-6, Acts 13:22-23, Romans 1:3. Have eternal existence, Micah 5:1-2, fulfillment John 1:1, 1:14, 8:58, Ephesians 1:3-4, Colossians 1:15-19, Revelations 1:18. Be the Son of GOD, Psalm 2:7, Proverbs 30:4, fulfillment Matthew 3:17, Luke 1:32...
Torahkeeper007 9 months ago
The seed of the woman that would bruise or crush the serpents head, Genesis 3:15, fulfillment, Galatians 4:4; 1st John 3:8. To be the seed of Abraham Genesis 12:3, fulfillment, Matthew 1:2, Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16. To be the seed of Isaac, Genesis 17:19 & 21:12, fulfillment, Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Hebrews 11:17-19. To be the seed of Jacob and the star out of Jacob who will have dominion, Genesis 28:14, Numbers 24:17,19, fulfillment Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34, Revelations 22:16 ....
Torahkeeper007 9 months ago
First of all, there was no sin offering for intentional sin only offerings for un-intentional sin. There wasnt an offering for intentional sin because the entire BIBLE was about how GOD was going to have his messiah be the sacrifice. We all are atoned for by faith. Even Abraham was saved by faith, not sacrifice. Faith in YESHUA of Nazereth, GOD incarnate in the flesh. As far as scripture that validates his credentials, read my following posts....
Torahkeeper007 9 months ago
Romans 5:11"& not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now recieved ATONEMENT." It was done on Passover because it was for the "sins if the world" not just the sins of the Jews. Lamb's blood was put on the door posts in Egypt when the "angel of death" was going through & it would passover any house with it on it's door posts. Today, your heart is your door posts & if the Blood of Jesus isn't on it, you are not saved. ONLY JESUS SAVES!!!
wayinoutreach 9 months ago
@wayinoutreach " It was done on Passover because it was for the "sins if the world" not just the sins of the Jews."
Why would Passover be a better time for "the sins of the world" as opposed to "just the sins of the Jews"?
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH Because "death" has no sting any more for the believers!! Jesus conquered death on the Cross, for ALL who believe in Him!!
wayinoutreach 9 months ago
@wayinoutreach "Because 'death' has no sting any more for the believers!! Jesus conquered death on the Cross, for ALL who believe in Him!!"
Not responsive to my question. You're merely repeating one version of the Christian appropriation of Passover to give meaning to Jesus' execution. You haven't explained your claim at all.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH You are the one misquoting. You take a Jewish ritual between them & God & try to put it between all men & God. "Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the SINS OF THE WORLD. Since the Blood of the Lamb was placed on the door posts in Egypt Passover was celebrated because DEATH PASSED OVER. Get it??? Death now passed over all TRUE BELIEVERS. Again, Rom.5:11 says so!! Also, God's greatest accomplishment wasn't creation, it was the REDEMPTION OF MAN & that's what really bugs Satan. & U??
wayinoutreach 9 months ago
@wayinoutreach "You are the one misquoting."
I didn't say anything about misquoting. And I certainly haven't misquoted anything. It would be useful if you could at least *try* to stick with the actual matters being discussed here.
"You take a Jewish ritual between them & God & try to put it between all men & God."
That's precisely what you and loads of Christians before you--going back to the earliest days of the Jesus movement--have tried to do with Passover.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH So in 2011, suddenly u are right with yr interpretation? Romans 5:11"& not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now recieved the ATONEMENT." Do you even know what the word ATONEMENT means? John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, & saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Also Ex.12:13 , Isaiah 53:7, 1 Peter 1:19, Rev.5:6. The Jews still have their day of Atonement & bull, they just can't do it.
wayinoutreach 9 months ago
@wayinoutreach "So in 2011, suddenly u are right with yr interpretation?"
You've yet to refute what I've said.
" Do you even know what the word ATONEMENT means?"
I do. I also know it has nothing whatsoever to do with Passover. There was, as the video explains in great detail, a Day of Atonement.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH I have refuted what you have said & I did it with Scripture. Your NON-ACCEPTANCE of it doesn't invalidate it in any way shape or form. It just shows how THICK the scales over your eyes actually are.!! You will probably stand at the White Throne of Judgment & argue with God that you aren't really there either!!
wayinoutreach 9 months ago
@wayinoutreach "I have refuted what you have said & I did it with Scripture."
Actually, you have not. You have merely given a version of the Christian appropriation of Passover.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
You should really learn to read whole Passages instead one sentence within a paragraph lol
Hebrews 10 make it clear the These sacrifices did not permenantly Atone for sins like Jesus did. Atonements had to continue each year. God told Abraham he would one day Provide a Lamb for Sacrifce and in the Meantime had other animals other than a lamb ordered for sacrifice which is Why he provided a ram instead. Jesus is the Only lamb of God which takes away all sins forever.
ahmalala 10 months ago
@ahmalala "You should really learn to read whole Passages instead one sentence within a paragraph lol"
And you should find a new line that has basis in reality. I always read the entire passage, but I'm amazed at how many apologists will invoke "context" as if it were a talisman that makes all the problems go away. I'm starting to think that the apologists who do this most frequently are the most weak-minded of the lot.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH Everything u said is refuted by actually reading the book of hebrews, especially chapter 9. This video as most are is shameless. lol
ahmalala 10 months ago
@ahmalala "Everything u said is refuted by actually reading the book of hebrews"
Quite the opposite.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
(con't) @ahmalala "Hebrews 10 make it clear the These sacrifices did not permenantly Atone for sins...."
Yes, I know. I didn't say anything different. But since you invoke context, you do well to follow your own advice by recalling that one of the main themes of Hebrews is that Jewish Law generally & its sacrificial system in particular, which in the Jewish scriptures Yahweh says were perfect & made people righteous, were merely a "shadow of the good things to come and not the very form...
ProfMTH 10 months ago
(con't) ...of things" (Hebrews 10:1). The writer to the Hebrews is quite clear in saying that the sacrificial system did not and indeed *could* not do what it was purported to do. It was just some preshow in anticipation of the execution of Jesus.
"God told Abraham he would one day Provide a Lamb for Sacrifce"
Passage?
"Jesus is the Only lamb of God which takes away all sins forever."
Passover lambs had NOTHING to do with atonement for sin. Nothing.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH "Passover lambs had NOTHING to do with atonement for sin. Nothing."
Go to Biblegateway. Search the Word "lamb" they where used for atonement or sin offerings all the time.
“If, however, they are poor and cannot afford these, they must take one male lamb as a guilt offering to be waved to make atonement for them" Lev 14:21
ahmalala 10 months ago
@ahmalala "Go to Biblegateway. Search the Word "lamb" they where used for atonement or sin offerings all the time."
And tell me, how many of those references refers to Passover, hmm? Just give the number that refer to Passover.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH it wouldnt matter since Jesus was the high priest in the order of Melchezedek not Arron!
ahmalala 10 months ago
@ahmalala "it wouldnt matter since Jesus was the high priest in the order of Melchezedek not Arron!"
I'll take that as an acknowledgement (albeit a begruding one) that there are zero references to Passover lambs as having anything to do with sin.
I won't even bother raising the question about how Jesus fulfilled the Law when, by your own admission, he wasn't a priest "in the order of" it.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH "by your own admission, he wasn't a priest "in the order of" it. " You truly cannot read. I said he Was A HIGH PRIEST, just not in the order of Arron, The old new covenant order and new ones are different. God would provide his lamb for the New covenant not the old. Wise up :)
ahmalala 10 months ago
@ProfMTH God himself would provide a Lamb Genesis 22:8 Jesus was a High priest in the order of Melchizedek as stated in Hebrews. Melchizedek appeared to Abraham with Bread and wine symbolizing the Future passover the Last supper for which Jesus would be the passover lamb. Genesis 14:18
ahmalala 10 months ago
@ahmalala "God himself would provide a Lamb Genesis 22:8."
You quote Abraham's diversionary statement to his soon-to-be burnt offering son as a prediction of Jesus as the lamb of your god? Oy vey. The desperation of apologists.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH Obviously you cant read lol. He(Abraham) said God Would provide the Lamb. Not He(abraham) Would provide the lamb. You see He knew he wouldnt really have to sacrifice his Son because of God's promises. He trusted God. You should learn to do the same :)
ahmalala 10 months ago
@ahmalala "Obviously you cant read"
Obviously, you are delusional and desperate to shoehorn reference to Jesus into as many parts of the Jewish scriptures as possible regardless of how poorly they fit and ridiculous they are.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH 1st reference to Jesus in in Gen.1:26 "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness,..." 2nd mention is Gen.3:15"I will put emnity between thee & the woman, & between they seed & HER SEED." That is the only reference to a woman having seed, because it was refering to Jesus being born to a virgin. God puts Jesus in the Old & New Testaments. They are all HIS WORD. John 1:1"In the beginning was the WORD & the WORD was with God & the WORD was God." By Him were all things made.....
wayinoutreach 9 months ago
Comment removed
metal4life68 10 months ago
@metal4life68 I'm reposting the comment of yours that you deleted: "Why should I believe any of this video. It's someone right not want to believe in God. The difference Christ and the bible has made in life is enough for me. If I wouldn't have accepted Christ in my life I know I would have self destructed and have already been physically dead not mention spiritually. I pray you find peace."
You should believe the video because it presents facts. If you'd prefer fantasy, don't believe it.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
@ProfMTH I pray you find peace in hell.
metal4life68 10 months ago
@metal4life68 "I pray you find peace in hell."
Ah, so you *do* prefer fantasy. Well, whatever spins your wheels.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
your problem is your refusal to honestly study ALL the scriptures on a topic. your hatred for God is blinding you.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath "your problem is your refusal to honestly study ALL the scriptures on a topic. your hatred for God is blinding you."
If you ever have something of substance to offer, be sure to let me know. If, as it seems, the above-quoted is the best you can do, you shouldn't waste my time or yours with it. It doesn't refute one bit of the argument I've laid out in the video and makes you look like extremely silly.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH ... RE: you look like extremely silly.. No.. you just prove your unwillingness to honestly study ALL the scriptures on a topic. Just point out your great lack of honesty and biblical understanding is enough for me since I hardly doubt your willing to admit to be being wrong until God has mercy on you.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath Feel free to present a refutation of the case I have laid out in the video. Beating your chest and asserting that I'm being dishonest and all the rest of the gibberish you've been posting does NOTHING to establish that the case I've laid out in this video is wrong. In short, put up or shut up.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH I have 2000 years of church history to back me up. You have your ignorance...
rbmath 11 months ago
@ProfMTH your reasoning is flawed. IF your false views had any chance Paul the apostle Paul, a former Pharisee who knew Jewish law a lot better than you or I did would have seen it.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath "I have 2000 years of church history to back me up."
I wasn't aware that "church history" is infallible. Again, you need an argument, not an appeal to authority. You do love the logical fallacies.
"Your reasoning is flawed."
HOW?! HOW IS MY REASONING FLAWED? BE SPECIFIC! If you cannot be specific, just say so because I'm about done wasting my time reading these baseless assertions & logical fallacies of yours.
"Paul the apostle...knew...a lot better"
Appeal to authority.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH The passover ceremony was a reminder of God's deliverance from being slaves in Egypt, Exo 12:26, Exo 13:3,14, Deu 4:9. God redeeming His people. it pictured Christ redeeming His people from being slaves to sin Joh 8:34, Rom 3:23. Christ our deliverance from our "spiritual Egypt" Joh 8:36. RE:Appeal to authority.. At least they UNDERSTAND what they are talking about, where you have no clue.
rbmath 11 months ago
@ProfMTH your problem is that you are still captive to sin and hatred toward God.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath "The passover ceremony was a reminder of God's deliverance from being slaves in Egypt, Exo 12:26, Exo 13:3,14, Deu 4:9."
I know. Nothing to do with atonement for and forgiveness of sin.
" it pictured Christ redeeming His people from being slaves to sin "
Christian appropriation of Passover imagery, as I said in the video.
You've got nothing. But you and I already knew that.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH. So you know that answer. you just not honest enough to admit your wrong. Once again its your natural hatred for God that shines through your propaganda
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath " you just not honest enough to admit your wrong"
I'm not wrong. You made my point for me--the very point I make in the video. Passover had NOTHING to do with atonement for and forgiveness of sin, but Christians appropriated its imagery. Why? Because Jesus' death didn't actually fulfill the Law vis-a-vis atonement and forgiveness.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH Your wrong. and may God open your mind before its too late... 1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath At least man can read scripture...
G-d required the Messiah to come from the line of David through Solomon.
Mary came from Nathan (Solomon's brother)
Joseph wasn't jesus's father....
case closed.
And learn to read dickhead....
straygypsy 11 months ago
@straygypsy you do know that their are TWO genealogies, Through Mary and Joseph, Joseph was Jesus LEGAL FATHER.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath Which would further his disqualification even FARTHER!
Joseph was a descendant of Zerubabel (1.Chron 3:23).
Any descendant of Zerubabel (aka Jeconia curse) NO MAN THAT IS A DESCENDANT OF THIS SEED SHALL INHERIT THE THRONE OF DAVID!! (Jer. 22:24-30)
Now you know why Xtians brewed up a plot to make it look like Joseph wasn't jesus's natural father..
OH! And by the way, you can spare me the adoption garbage. A Cohen Gadol (High Priest) could not pass on his priesthood through adoption
straygypsy 11 months ago
@straygypsy.. RE:Joseph wasn't jesus's natural father.. Joseph WAS NOT Jesus natural father. about the rest of your post I have NO idea what your talking about and I could careless. 1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath Thank you for finally admitting you don't know what I am talking about.
I am talking about TORAH and Jewish Law. Something you and every other Xtian know absolutely nothing about.
That's why you are nothing more than a modern day Horus worshiper..
straygypsy 11 months ago
@straygypsy it seems your the one who has no clue. bye
rbmath 11 months ago
So, you want people to believe an atheist 2Co 2:14, over what the apostle John and the apostle Paul, a former Pharisee who was killing Christians believed that Jesus WAS OUR PASSOVER.
rbmath 11 months ago
@rbmath It seems you didn't pay attention to the video. I haven't contested the New Testament's saying "Jesus WAS OUR PASSOVER." Rather, my argument goes to the fact that Passover has nothing to do with atonement for and forgiveness of sins. You should pay attention.
"you want people to believe an atheist...over...the apostle John and the apostle Paul"
Your ad hominem and appeal to authority are duly noted.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH ... My "ad hominem" is a fact about your understanding.
rbmath 11 months ago
@MrVisions Good point.
RepresentingTruth 11 months ago
@owenmatthewtiernan I tried to tell him that but he is out in left field. I am thinking of doing a video response.
RepresentingTruth 11 months ago
@RepresentingTruth Please don't do a video response....he's just going to tear it to shreds and you will end up embarrassing anyone that believes that Jesus is the Messiah. No offense intended, but he's fairly intelligent and seems to be able to discuss things better than you. Not that I don't agree....I just don't think it wise to argue with people that don't believe He is the Messiah....it doesn't usually do anything but make it worse. Shalom and much love.
jonahofakron 11 months ago
@jonahofakron Well I have already on the virgin birth question. My purpose is not to convince him. My purpose in my videos is to show that Christians can respond. Did you check out my response to the virgin birth question? BTW I do have one advantage. One of the guys at our church was Jewish and I have already talked to him about it. I would probably have him look at it before I would respond. I may or may not but I am not afraid to do so. Thanks
RepresentingTruth 11 months ago
@RepresentingTruth Absolutely. Thank you for taking the comment in the right spirit. Have a good one. I'll check out your other video.
jonahofakron 11 months ago
@jonahofakron Your welcome. Maybe I allow you to see a rough draft before I put it up. Tell me what is strong and what is weak and that could be a help. Let me know.
RepresentingTruth 11 months ago
This video is a joke. The day of atonement only covered their sins for another year. It was like a credit card that carried the balance until it was paid in full by Jesus. Let me spoon feed something to you. Jesus himself said thy sins be forgiven thee. Tell me Mr. know it all was that on the day of atonement? No, and the thief on the cross was also forgiven. Nice try but you mockery does not work with me and Jesus will set you straight at the judgment.
RepresentingTruth 1 year ago
@RepresentingTruth "Nice try but you mockery does not work with me and Jesus will set you straight at the judgment."
lol As ever, thanks for the laugh and the evangelistic threat.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Well I guess I am a threat to you since you cannot refute me. Nice chatting with you and have a nice eternity.
RepresentingTruth 1 year ago
@RepresentingTruth "Well I guess I am a threat to you since you cannot refute me."
Refute you? You ignored the argument presented in the video in favor of merely noting that the Yom Kippur atonement ritual was a yearly event. So was the Passover, but of course the Passover had nothing to do with sin--and Passover having nothing to do with sin is the issue here. So, no, you're not a threat. You're hilarious. Although, sadly, it seems you can't or won't deal with the actual argument made.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Thank you for responding. I do enjoy your mockery and do enjoy showing your error. Christ is our passover. Even you bring that out. I will make it easy for you to understand. The same one that is called our passover is the same one that was the once and for all sacrificed for our sins. Heb. 10:1-14 So passover is a type and shadow of the real being Jesus Christ. See Heb. chapter 9 Recap Passover = Jesus sacrifice = you failed. Nice chatting with you.
RepresentingTruth 1 year ago
@RepresentingTruth "Christ is our passover. Even you bring that out."
And Passover has nothing to do with sin.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH He that hath ears to hear let him hear. Okay I will go a little slower for you. You state Christ is our passover right? I clearly gave you references that Christ paid for our sins. Now Christ as our passover paid for our sins. How can you say passover has nothing to do with sin when CHRIST OUR PASSOVER PAID FOR OUR SINS? That is like saying BP had nothing to do with the BP oil spill.
RepresentingTruth 1 year ago
@RepresentingTruth "You state Christ is our passover right? I clearly gave you references that Christ paid for our sins. Now Christ as our passover paid for our sins."
You may repeat this as many times as you like. Repetition will not change the fact that Passover had NOTHING TO DO WITH REMISSION OF SINS. N O T H I N G! Dying on Passover does not fulfill the Law with respect to remission of sins.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH This is my body which is broken for you. This is the blood of the New Covenant. I guess that means nothing to you. I think a video response would be the best. I am finding that I may not have time at this moment but I will consider it in the future.
RepresentingTruth 1 year ago
@RepresentingTruth "This is my body which is broken for you. This is the blood of the New Covenant. I guess that means nothing to you."
As I said in the video, it's an appropriation of Passover symbols in order to make them about something they were never about, i.e., the remission of sins. Again, you make my point for me.
" I think a video response would be the best."
Great. I look forward to it.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Doesn't it have to do with death 'passing over' those that accept the blood? Just wondering what your thoughts were on that.
jonahofakron 11 months ago
@jonahofakron "Doesn't it have to do with death 'passing over' those that accept the blood?"
Not exactly. The blood on the door post was a sign to the angel of death that the house was a Hebrew dwelling and, therefore, the firstborn in the house should not be killed. It had nothing to do with sin or atonement for it. And only the firstborn were the target of the plague.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
The Day of Atonement was only meant for the nation of Israel. The Passover works fine for me - as it did Paul who knew much more on the matter,
williamgivens 1 year ago
@williamgivens " The Passover works fine for me...."
That's nice. However, it had nothing to do with the sin.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
Comment removed
williamgivens 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Is it possible that you have missed the point and gone off on a tangent? Kinda hard to believe that everyone up to this point have gotten it so wrong. Why didn't the Jews point this out to the Christians long ago?
williamgivens 1 year ago
If there was one thing I could pick from the entire bible to prove Jesus wasn't God, it is this. Nicely done. What's more evident is how Christians are responding to it. If your best counter-argument is that "it doesn't matter" or "you are going to burn in hell" then you seriously need to consider what you believe, because those aren't arguments. Instead of damning someone to hell, how about explain why he is wrong. It's a better way of getting your position across.
mxmsfuyt 1 year ago
@mxmsfuyt Indeed. Thanks for the comment.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
This is a really weak arguement. I don't see how you can make such a bold statement based off of it. I am not sure if you are an Atheist or what your agenda is. I am sure that Biblical Scholars and Theologians would have figured this out by now and mentioned it, if it is that big of a deal, which either way, it's not. Not a million men can discredit God or Scripture, let alone one. You could posess the knowledge and wisdom of God if you really wanted to, then you would see.
TeaMaster1978 1 year ago
@TeaMaster1978 "I am not sure if you are an Atheist or what your agenda is."
What does it matter? An argument stands or falls on its merits, regardless of who is making and what, if anything, his or her agenda may be. So you would do well to support your unargued assertion that my argument is "really weak" with some specifics that refute it. Short of that, you've merely expressed a baseless opinion. Thanks.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
Yeshua (JESUS) is definitely and absolutely the atonement. You want proof? Isaiah 53:5 is fulfilled in 1Peter 2:24.
knightsofstjoan2004 1 year ago
@knightsofstjoan2004 "Yeshua (JESUS) is definitely and absolutely the atonement. You want proof? Isaiah 53:5 is fulfilled in 1Peter 2:24."
lol Watch my series "Jesus Was Not the Messiah." Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with Jesus.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH=You're an Anti-Christ, the Bible makes it definitely and absolutely clear in 1 John 2:22 who every says that Yeshua (JESUS) is not the Messiah is a liar and therefore is an Anti-Christ and reject both God the Father and God the Son. The Bible code from Isaiah 53 reveals the Messiah's name is Yeshua, you keep stating that Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with Him you will surely die in your sins and you will suffer eternal damnation.
knightsofstjoan2004 1 year ago
@knightsofstjoan2004 "The Bible code from Isaiah 53 reveals the Messiah's name is Yeshua...."
Ooo, the "Bible code", eh?
"you keep stating that Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with Him"
It has absolutely nothing to do with him. Nothing at all.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH=Liar, you're a big fat deceitful liar, you will surely die in your sins and you will suffer eternal damnation.
knightsofstjoan2004 1 year ago
@blacksand27 If you're a believer, be careful when you say he wasn't a man: 1 john 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
"flesh" means a man prone to sin. concordance it if you don't believe.
petshaw2009 1 year ago
ALso, the passover lamb was actually an Egyptian deity. In sacrificing the lamb, they were sacrificing egypts false idols. The hebrews were even scared to do this in front of the egyptians, but that was the test that God was giving them, to see if they trusted Him. "And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?" exo 8:26
pianokid100 1 year ago
@blacksand27 thats interesting that jesus will say " The wounds I was given at the house of my friends" (zac 13), since it is a chapter on false prophets
pianokid100 1 year ago
@blacksand27 "he [i.e., Jesus] was not a man"
Really? 1 Timothy 2:5 is an odd passage then, isn't it--that whole business about "the MAN Christ Jesus" (emphasis added)? You might want to look up the "hypostatic union." It's kind of a big deal in most Christian circles.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @blacksand27 "one day Jesus will show up as King and priest and my Jewish brother will ask the Messiah `where did you get thoese marks ` and he will say I got them in the house of my friend"
You should watch my "Jesus Was Not the Messiah" video. It deals with that purported "prophecy" and shows how Christians have blatantly abused that text from Zechariah--a text that is about a false prophet.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH - he was made fully man in flesh & mind, but was an incarnation from God down to man. He remained inwardly as God, but was made to bear and be human so as to righteously pay the sin in full forever
jessicamunguia1 1 year ago
If you repeat a lie long enough people will believe it.
1965ace 1 year ago
@1965ace And what, if any, lie do you believe is being repeated here?
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH I was writing about the whole thing the churches lie the authors lie the publishers lie etc. Being more informed about the subject than it's conspirators is the only way to convince anyone, and you've done a good job.
1965ace 1 year ago
I always thought just as the Passover lamb represented the transition between slavery and freedom of the Isrealites; Jesus as the spiritual lamb represented the transition from slavery of sin to freedom of life. I equate the blood of Jesus with the Old Testiment blood used to wash away sins. No matter the process, only God can cleanse one of sins. Following blood rituals was an indication of love and respect for God. God reciprocated by cleansing man of their sins.
msudlp 1 year ago
@msudlp "I always thought just as the Passover lamb represented the transition between slavery and freedom of the Isrealites; Jesus as the spiritual lamb represented the transition from slavery of sin to freedom of life."
Which is an appropriation of Passover imagery, not a fulfillment of anything.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
At 2:41 your use of Psalm 42:7 is out of context. Start at verse 5, where a hypothetical question is posed:
"Why should I fear when evil days come, when whicked deceivers surround me - those [wicked] who trust in their WEALTH and boast of their GREAT RICHES?"
(Then verse 7) "No one [in context of WEALTH] can redeem the life of another or give to God a [payment] for [lives]."
Note, payment is not "impossible", but (verse 8) "The ransom for a life is costly. No [money] is ever enough."
jpmay26 1 year ago
@jpmay26 First, it's Psalm 49, not Psalm 42. Second, note that verse 7 say "No man can BY ANY MEANS." That's not limited to money by either the context or the language of the specific passage. Third, your rewording of verse 7, while clever and convenient, is just that: a rewording. The word translated as "ransom" (no one can "give to God a ransom for him") is not limited to money. Verse 8 says people should "cease trying forever" to do this. No human sacrifice can redeem.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH (You're correct on the Chapter. I was working from memory, but you're still incorrect)
"No man by any MEANS"...the Hebrew word used is "yif Deh" from the word "paw Daw", which means either "redeem or redemption price", is a financial term used, just like OUR word "means" can also be used financially, as in "living above one's means".
Our word "Ransom" is English. Yet "Kaferov" (the Hebrew word used) is where we get "coffer".
(continued...)
jpmay26 1 year ago
(Continued @ProfMTH...)
The Hebrew language didnt' deal in abstracts, but real things. The idea of "redemption" was "a real exchange [of something] for a payment amount".
Putting it all together, "No brother by any *real exchange [Price] or payment amount* can [pay for] a man or give to [any] gods coffer [a pay]."
"Ach lo fadoh yifdeh ish; lo yitten lelohim kaferov"
Why?
"The coffer for a soul is costly ["veyekar" = precious, rare] and IT *ceases forever* [vechadal le'ovlam]. "
jpmay26 1 year ago
As I'm sure you know Passover was when the hebrews in Egypt killed a lamb and put the blood on the door as a symbol of God's people and so punishment passes them by.
Could it be this that Paul is meaning?
As for a man being able to take away sin, many/all Christians believe Christ was fully God too.
coolbanana165 1 year ago
@coolbanana165 "As I'm sure you know Passover was when the hebrews in Egypt killed a lamb and put the blood on the door as a symbol of God's people and so punishment passes them by."
Actually, that's not what the blood on the door was about. See, e.g., Exodus 12. The lamb's blood was put on the door to signal to Yahweh (or his angel of death) that Hebrews lived in the dwelling and, therefore, Yahweh's final plague on the Egyptians--i.e., the killing of the first born--would not mistakenly...
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @coolbanana165 ...hit a Hebrew home. The Hebrews had nothing to be punished for in the story, and the killing of the Passover lamb had nothing to do with sin.
"As for a man being able to take away sin, many/all Christians believe Christ was fully God too."
Indeed. But it was Jesus qua human being--"the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ" (Hebrews 10:10)--that the New Testament claims got the job done.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH If I change what I said then to say that the blood of the lamb allowed the hebrews to live when they otherwise woulf have died.
Of course I think that God would have known without the blood though, but its the meaning that counts.
coolbanana165 1 year ago