NTSB Colgan Air Crash Animation Flight 3407

[myHome109]

The icing conditions and the control response in this video looks a lot like the NASA experiment on Tail Plane Icing Stall. Please go watch the NASA Tailplane Icing Video Glenn Research Center by airboyd 2 yr ago 23.21 min..

[LateNightCable]

The Dash 8 is a sleek looking plane, but doesn't have sufficient wing surface to save itself from such a desperate situation, pilot error or not, that's my opinion... I wouldn't want to be flying one of those shits on a cold dark night.

[mightybedbugs]

God Imagine being on that death trap. Everything is normal. You feel the plane slow down. Then it slows way down.. Jerks. Starts dropping. And while dropping, the plane flips all around. You know your fate is sealed and there is nothing you can do about it. All others on board know too. Everyone is screaming in sheer terror of death. How truly horrifying.

[dieselphiend]

How convenient for the US Government that Beverly Eckert, a leading 9/11 Truther was on that plane.

Plane crashes are one of the favorite assassination methods of intelligence agencies, as most planes can be completely taken over remotely with the on-board Home Run systems.

[Jimmy81691]

@dieselphiend your insanity is hilarious

[dieselphiend]

@Jimmy81691 your support for your government handlers is disgusting...

[DarkxSpirit2014]

i remember this day so clearly. I live less than a mile from where the crash was and the whole ground shook and you saw the explosion and everything; it was so scary. And all those people lost their lives because of dumbfuck poilots screwing up- good job Colgan...

[hollowpoint45acp]

pilot's history is clear--never should've been in command of a cropduster, let alone a common carrier

[BMWMarv]

@hollowpoint45acp I get your point, but do a search on "Crop Duster Negotiating Power Lines", and watch the video posted by tjodalv44 before putting down cropdusters... maybe say he shouldn't have been in command of a Hoveround...

[swidd2]

Question to consider: would a greater emphasis on the concept of single pilot operation of flaps, power and gears be encouraged, to make sure tired motherfucking pilots flying don't lose sense of what's going on?

[375GTB]

2-9-10 PBS: FRONT LINE "FLYING CHEAP" just dissected this whole sorry situation, with Colgan and all the "regional" contract airlines to the majors. The FAA's being in bed with the airlines, contractors they are supposed to be regulating.

Fly a Regional.... drive a Prius... say your prayers.

[CIWS1]

Colgan Air is one of the fastest growing airlines out there and are ranked 8th in terms of on time flights even over major airlines. They are not cheep nor are they dangerous. This was the Pilots fault not the aircraft. Blameing an entire business for the mistake of an individual is unsupportable.

[7133853333]

Ok maybe it was the crew's mistake, but don't try to defend one of the companies who ruin the regional business in the US. Companies like Colgan, Mesa, GoJet etc are the real people who we need to blame for; they are making money out of the pilots (US$16 Hour), poor maintenance, really bad ground services.And don't let me start with the majors.... so please do no disrespect the memory of all the people who died that day... and yes this includes the pilots!

[CIWS1]

I have no disrespect for the pilots. I know most of the Colgan flight crews(not this particular team however), this was still pilot error. And I really don't appreciate the dig on the Maintenance. Albany (where the Q's are maintained as well as the Saabs) have a high standard. Don't lump Colgan in with Mesa please. Nothing i have said is disrespectful to thoes who have died either.

[plasticbarf]

Who hired the pilot?

[Necrommancer]

well the plane lost airspeed so it stalled, thats the reason of the crash i guess

[CIWS1]

If i recall correctly he had turned on his DeIce system right after departure from Newark. DeIce only works if you already have enough ice built up. Anti Ice is left on during flight, This is basic aviation education, i learned it in A&P school. NEVER thought i would see it actually happen to my own company. The PIC was to blame. Not the aircraft.

[xfernydrummerX]

hello sir, whatsDelce?

[CIWS1]

Sorry i missed the space bar lol! I was trying to say De-ice.

[bethpage89]

Ic no factor in this crash.

[bethpage89]

Ice no factor.

[CIWS1]

ice big factor.

[Deej1188]

Even if ice was a factor, this was still a recoverable stall. They still pulled up on the yoke. The pusher turned on and they fought that. Even if you remove ice from the equation, they did a lot wrong.

[CIWS1]

Actually it really wasn't by the time they got there. They had gear down and flaps down. they were at low airspeed and were at a low altitude. They couldn't have recovered at that point. The ice Killed the wings lift. No airspeed no room to nose down and gain it back. The pilot did pull up on the sticks when it automatically nosed over to recover from the stall but it didn't matter by then. ICE+LOW AIRSPEED+LOW ALTITUDE= NTSB investigation.

[Deej1188]

I'm no pilot but I took 375GTB's advice and watched "Flying Cheap" by PBS Frontline.

They had clips from the NTSB investigation hearing before congress. They asked a test pilot if in his professional opinion, if this was a recoverable stall.  He said yes.

Even if the ice killed the wings' lift, doesn't pulling up in a stall complicate things? So it doesn't matter that the pusher activated and they pulled up? I don't get it.

[CIWS1]

Yes you are correct. Pulling up in a stall is bad especially if you don't have airspeed to recover. The Aircraft's Stick pusher detected the stall and automatically nosed the plane down. The problem was A: the altitude was too low and they had no airspeed. Could this have been avoided? yes, if they had not slowed as much as they had. The Pilot made it much worse when he over reacted and hauled back on the stick against the pusher. So yeah i suppose it could have recovered but it would have been.

[CIWS1]

Close enough that it would have been questionable at best, it still may not have had enough altitud to recover. The pilot was to blame from the start and his over reaction simply put the final nail in the coffin.

[blusheep2]

CIW..I hope your not a pilot at Colgan if you think a stall is unrecoverable from 1500' even with some ice. In fact this a/c climbs to 1750 AGL before the flaps are raised and the final element of the event happens. in fact they dont lose any altitude until after the flaps are raised. so while the shaker/pusher is operating they are managing to climb. I think that rules out ice being an issue and any thought that they couldn't have recovered.

[bethpage89]

@CIWS1:

When the stickshaker activated there was sufficient speed for recovery with no loss of altitude.

The pilot was pulling back on the yoke before the stickpusher activated.

[linoleumcarving]

wow ! powerfull

[noox89]

That's weird...If the AP was on I think that the Auto/thrust was also on...AP was armed in APR mode so it should also maintain speed, but I am not familiar with AP systems on this airplane...Pilots might have been desoriented when stalling in IMC conditions

[bethpage89]

Not many turbopropeller aircraft have autothrottles. The pilots control the power.

[latetalent]

seems to a simple stall to me

not blaming the crew:

pilots are not to increase aoa (pitching up) in an imminent stall situation

when in a stall they should follow known recovery techniques

r.i.p.

[AirplaneRider]

Cody is absolutely right. Newbie pilots are taught basic stall recovery techniques, techniques that were not applied here and that could've saved their lives.

I think panic sets in when you see the airplane descending in a stall at such a low altitude, but good pilots overcome the urge to pull back and recover from the stall instead.

[bethpage89]

They were not at a low altitude when the stickshaker first activated,

when the stickpusher first activated,

or when they first stalled.

They stalled again at 1920' MSL. They might well have recovered from that, too, if they had tried.

From the moment the stickshaker activated the pilot flying fixed too much attention and effort on bank angle, which didn't matter, inadvertently nosing up, climbing 200 feet, stalling, and stalling again after losing about 600 feet.

[Valkyriepure]

Stick shaker and pusher activated ,max power was never applied. Excessive aileron should never be applied in a stall as it will make a stall worse. From 2:20 max power neutral aileron and forward pressure to increase speed would have saved the a/c. Instead the pilot went from full left to full right aileron and never applied a back pressure. ATR's will stall suddenly if speed drops too low.

[codyl1992]

the fundamental stall recovery procedure is to restore smooth airflow over the wings by pushing the yoke forward and putting the airplane into a descent to gain some airspeed, and therefore smooth flowing air over the wings. clearly, this was not done as the plane pitched up instead of down. if they had pitched down and regained the smooth flow over the wings, the plane would likely have not crashed.

[datzfast]

its was good flying just too much ice.

[bethpage89]

--Hardly any ice. Its effect was negligible. If it were iced up badly it wouldn't have climbed 200 feet before stalling.

[flitetym]

... lotsa 'jr -- flips' makin' comments here ... better see what that relieved FSDO inspector had to say ... airspeed control was excessive across the field of pilots ... I commented earlier that 'failure to monitor rapid deterioration of airspeed' was the prime causative factor ... so, jr flip, I was right ... you are wrong ... get over it.

[britishagentTV]

Does anybody know if the Autothrottle was active?

[bethpage89]

That airplane, like most airplanes, does not have autothrottles.

[Paralyzer]

most commerical airlines do have auto throttle. so you are wrong there. all planes with autopilot usually have autorhtottle also

[bethpage89]

Some turbopropeller aircraft have autothrottle(s), but it is not usually the case.

Many jet airliners have autothrottles, and many do not.

[tomford8]

very sad such a tragic loss of life

[flitetym]

1) Insufficient application of power for the airframe's configuration and weight (largely unchanged throughout the sequence)

2) Failure to monitor rapid deterioration of airspeed

3) Faulty stall/spin recovery technique (full deflection of rudder in the direction of the rotation, and continuous back-pressure)

=============

Folks, let us review:

A) MAX POWER

B) FLAPS TO THE MANUFACTURER'S RECOMMENDED POSITION

C) PITCH TO THE RECOMMENDED RECOVERY ANGLE

D) POSITIVE RATE--GEAR UP

E) PRAY !

[jrankinejr]

i hope your comment was a joke right? Turbo Prop Icing 101: It was not a wing stall(eliminating stall/spin theory), it was a tail stall. Wrong recovery procedures. T-TAIL TURBO PROP IN ICING, DO NOT TOUCH THE FLAPS AND DO NOT USE THE AUTOPILOT! (autopilot flies the aaircraft until the aircraft will not fly (Roselawn, IN)To recover from a tail stall, pitch-up and reduce power.

[bethpage89]

The tail didn't stall. It was very effective in pitching the plane up to 31º.

[mattwright16]

think: to recover from a tail stall, you pull back. the pilot clearly did that, so how could it be a tail stall?

it's a wing stall. he acted wrongly. pure pilot error

[billvon2]

>it was a tail stall.

In a tail stall, the plane pitches nose-down violently as it loses the negative lift of the horizontal stabilizer. It is brought about by high speeds, flap actuation and high power settings in combination with heavy tailplane icing.

In this case, the nose came _up_ as speed decayed and flaps came down. That is the opposite of what you would expect with a tail stall. In addition, the rolling you see is characteristic of a wing, not a tail, stall.

[billvon2]

This accident was likely caused by a simple stall exacerbated by icing on the wings, which increases stall speeds significantly. The pilot did not maintain airspeed and allowed the aircraft to stall. Once it stalled, the pilot did not initiate stall recovery procedures, and kept it in a stall until impact.

[bethpage89]

billvon2:

It flew very slow before stalling.

[DrDee2009]

To recover from a stall you need airspeed. To gain airspeed in a stall you have to pitch down. Without altitude, you cannot recover from a stall.

[bethpage89]

DrDee2009:

They had  about 1800' AGL when they first stalled.

That's enough altitude.

[jrankinejr]

FINALLY SOMEONE THAT'S NOT CLUELESS!

[planesense99]

The last recovery effort is getting a lot of attention but after the loss of airspeed we all know it is a game of luck after that. The auto pilot played a critical role in the accident. The disengagement of it gave the pilots a stalled airplane and lot of confusion. The pilot flying was given less than 2 seconds before the time of first being aware of a problem to initiating recovery, I do not think anyone can make a informed decision in that amount of time.

[bethpage89]

When the autopilot disengaged it gave the pilots a flying plane.

The plane didn't stall until the pilot pitched it up to 31º.

The stickshaker is a stall warning system; it activates before the stall so the pilot can recover and not stall.

[SuperSexyCommando]

woman should not be pilots just to fit a quota -- they people who want to be pilots who train hard and earn their wings should be pilots- and if they are women, so what.

[mozart237]

that thump that the voice recorder picked up was probably a passenger who wasn't strapped in flying toward the front of the plane when it's nose was pointed almost straight down

[jsollien]

Thanks buddy, I'm sure that is the kind of information that people are looking for.

[jimaperkins]

Either the data is bad, or the data collection was hampered (i.e. a frozen Pitot tube). I dont know of any plane that will pitch down 30 to 45 degrees in a clean configuration and loose airspeed.

22:16:47, dwn 20 deg. Spd 123kts

:48, dwn 30 Spd 134

:49, dwn 30 Spd 139

:50, dwn 45 Spd 133

:51, dwn 40 Spd 117

:52, dwn 30 Spd 110

All this is happening while the pilot is continuing to pull back on the yoke. If the data is bad, when did it start lying to us?

[mozart237]

my theory is because the plane was basically free falling when it went vertical at that point, and when the wings leveled out it slowed it down a bit.

[prtarver]

No bad data I think, "falling leaf maneuver" though. You can purposely hold back pressure in a stall and the nose will oscillate up and down gaining and losing air speed over and over again, looks like a leaf falling from a tree. This airplane though had full power and soon after a couple seconds of these oscillations ended up in a power-on stall then spin entry with not enough altitude to recover. Pitot heat would have been on upon entering visible moisture and/or air temps below freezing.

[bethpage89]

jimaperkins:

The airspeed data are good.

--Lots of backpressure, high angle of attack, and the aircraft was not moving in the direction that the nose was pointed.

[CaptMoo]

The importance of not being confident

[rallyden]

i first thought it was ice or something...then after viewing this i can only say that the pilot let it stall and crash!

after flaps 5 and airspeed around 180+, he decreased power to near idle and never touched it again til stall. during all this, he lowered the gear, the condition levers went up (more drag), and called for more flaps. The A/P held 2300' as the airspeed decayed to below 130. Then the stall recovery was blotched and the rest history.

[RyanRBiggs]

OK so here's the real deal speculation from an account in Aviation Week journal: the captain is most experienced in a different airplane much more subject to tailplane icing than this plane. He barely knows this plane. He gets too slow, which makes the stick shaker fire, which is supposed to alert him to increase power and lower the nose. Instead, he thinks it is tailplane icing stall and makes the right control input for tailplane stall (nose up), which is totally wrong here. Seems out of it...

[prtarver]

Bingo

[cjracer1000]

ok 1 auto pilot was on to be too slow or the flaps wernt on high enough either way the auto pilot should not have been set to that slow, then when they disengaged they pulled back, which all ican say is just plain stupid, if the shaker is on and you hear the stall warning don't they know what causes a stall! i mean if your trained you should know what causes a stall and how to get out of a stall, i mean REALLY! but this is sad

[Arrowhead2k1]

The pilots were too busy yammering with eachother, they forgot all about flying the plane!

[cjracer1000]

MMHMM!

[treetpflyer]

Well, in my opinion, the first issue is the being dependant on the Auto Pilot. It appears the Auto Pilot handed him an aircraft on the verge of the stall. If he were to have been hand flying, he would have felt the sluggish response. I have felt this myself and it is a spooky feeling if you are not ready for it. Basic IFR unusual attitude training, with an icing emergency to boot. Then with pilot fatigue added in sealed their fate. This is very reminesant of the American Eagle flight 4184.

[Spoffo]

This was an understandable response from a sleepy pilot, worried about icing who misses the decaying airspeed. There's a NASA video that illustrates it: a) Ice builds up on horiz stab b) lowering flaps changes airflow, produces incipient tail stall c) first symptom is violent elevator shake in yoke d) response is pull UP to break tail stall, full power and (maybe) retract flaps. This isn't likely with the Dash 8, but is with many commuter types, and the pilot recently transitioned from the Saab.

[surferpilot]

Such a sad outcome that could have been avoided if basic flight training procedures that even a private pilot learns when a stall is encountered. (1) lower the nose of the aircraft, (2) add power (3) level the wings (4) do not retract flaps until the stall is recovered from.

[fastfashn]

I've been thinking, and the only thought that comes to mind is, "He panicked."

He felt the plane settle and since he wasn't paying attention to his instruments (?) he pulled back on the wheel and she dumped the flaps. There just wasn't the altitude left to recover from the bone-numbing dumbness.

Passengers were killed by stupidity.

[fastfashn]

Would you have dumped the flaps in a stall? That sounds counter intuitive since I'd think that means you've lost even more lift?

What do you think?

[jbskies]

Yeh, it will lost more lift. Non of the stall recovery procedures involve dumping flaps during the recovery. Like many high-wing Cessna go-around accidents, the FO impulsively raised flaps worsen the problem.

[gmcm6]

not correct! the first 10 flaps give you more lift, the rest give you more drag only so you can have a slower steeper desent. To regain speed you have to reduce flaps to 10 degrees max!

[cc201135]

so, you mean

if the pilot decide to increase flaps to 15, the throttle should push higher to maintain speed? but how about drag from landing gear?

But looks like nobody pay attention to air speed at that time isn't it?

[jbskies]

Both pilots behavior matches Aeronautical Decision Making's "hazardous attitude" -- Impulsivity (do something quickly!):

The captian impulsively pull up without following the correct procedure (and check the air speed).

The FO impulsively raise the flaps without coordination with captain because she thought lowering the flags to 15 degree caused the problem.

[gsmac1969]

Pure pilot error. The plane started to stall when the flaps went to 15. He correctly went to full power when the stick shaker activated, but did not push the nose down. Speed continued to bleed off, a wing dropped, and the stick pusher activated, which WOULD have saved them - except the captain overrode the stick pusher and pulled BACK, which sealed their doom.

[sdilullo]

Which then induced a power-on stall/spin. If you watch the indications, he never appears to apply any opposite rudder to counteract the spin entry. Probably didn't have enough altitude to recover at that point anyway, but still...

[j1992g]

stupid!

he pulled the plane up in a stall at low altitude!

wat he should of done is put full power on that thing and leveld out and came in 5 degree flaps cuz of the ice on the wings thats y it stalled in the first place

[ubuibiok]

No, he pulled up in a stall but he should have already had the power up because he had called for 15* flaps, Gear was down, Ice on the wings @ 02: 08 .... then the shit hit the fan and it was all over but the impact.

Ice slipped into the flap opening, left side upon going to 15* at/near the 10* position, power applied,  tried to level @ 02:10 ... by by

[rjmontgom]

A good point about the power. Note that they were doing 180 KIAS, and were level at 2300 when the gear was deployed. Now, unless power was increased (which it wasn't), either the airplane needs to descend or it will slow . As they stayed at 2300 feet, the airspeed predictably started bled off. Unfortunately, the pusher activated right after Flaps-15 was selected (coincidence), which likely caused the flying pilot to think "tailplane stall". I'm surprised they put the gear out that early.

[ubuibiok]

I keep thinking about seat 2 all day...she had the flaps and put them back in ASAP, then the transcript hit me, she questioned that flap call to 5* at 00:49 but keep mum.... by the time she calls gear down....air speed is way to low and he had nosed up at 02:04 with speed at 138 calls for flaps 15* and check list, his bad and the ground won the stick flight but she had them flaps on retract ASAP , the fix... ??? FAR and FAA Problem on inbound commuter flights, pilot training requirements.

[rjmontgom]

The thing that we all seem to forget is that we have an FO who was a fully trained and rated pilot. I'm not sure if her Flaps-5 question was a failure to understand or an assertion, but... Why didn't she question the "gear down" call when they weren't at the FAF yet? (I don't know about Colgan, but every company I've flown for says to put the gear out at the FAF.) Why didn't she make an airspeed call when the Capt got slow? Why didn't she question the Flaps-15 call?

[ubuibiok]

I bet there are a bunch of people who wish they could ask her.... just at stall, 02:07 , flaps indicated to 7.5 ,132, @ 2280 as he is nosed up to maintain 2300 ..., HOT-2 " uhhh " ...49 souls on board... winter flying in upper NY, Buffalo wings know have a double meaning for me.

[bethpage89]

rjmontgom:

The stickshaker, not the stickpusher, activated right after the "Flaps 15º" call.

Flaps 15º was never selected.

The stickpusher didn't activate until the pilot had already pitched up to about 30º.

[Jakearoo14]

Why the hell did he pull up? 2:06

[ubuibiok]

Because the FAA Rated him Qualified to fly IFR and He Wasn't....

[Lettenbichler]

That´s by far the main reason for the crash! Pretty sad though

[Jakearoo14]

Is that not common sense though i am not a pilot but i understand basic physics and aerodynamics how why the hell was this guy not adequately trained. I would have to blame the airline.

[gmcm6]

Becouse he belived he had a tail stall in that icing condition. whitch was wrong.... And from his school records, he was a bad pilot. He failed all the tests at least once from private to commercial. (Yes, my FAA flight instructor told me this)

[Jakearoo14]

ah i see thank you for clearing that up