TURBULENT SOULS - MAKING SENSE OF AN INCREDIBLE STORY

[LosAngeleno1959]

B'H"

Great presentation Rav Chaim. Can you recommend a good book that shows facts on the involvment of the Vatican in the Shoah? I have friends that do not believe me when I speak of this.

[gambleor]

Rabbi, I am a Orthodox Christian but I must say that it's clear you put a great deal of time and thought into your analysis of this story. It was very beautiful commentary and one well appreciated. Thank you.

[IzabellasHope]

forget the conspiracy theories about kennedy..take a look at his speeches...re: persecution, what i mean is that when we choose a side, all of a sudden the oppositte view becomes more apparent giving one the impression that overwhealming forces are against us..dualistic thinking..the thing is to stand back, take a breath and realise that the views that we see as threatening are not the overwhealming view of the majority just the view of the most passionate individuals of each side...

[HeroesofApostasy]

We have that with the false Left-Right paradigm. The majority of people are moderates, but the press always goes to the extremists. If you keep the citizens at war with each other then they aren't paying attention to Washington as much. The truth is both major parties are rotten to the core and there isn't much difference between the two, both would sell this country out for a nickle.

[HeroesofApostasy]

It's not their fault, it's our fault, we are all to happy to be fat, stupid, and sedated, and let them run this place into the ground.

As Franklin said............

"A republic if you can keep it"

[rabbichaimmoshe]

i never thought that a discussion about religion would degenerate into berating

people. i acknowledge that i am fat and lazy, but i reserve judgement for others to prove their mettle.

[HeroesofApostasy]

I wasn't talking about you or anyone specific, I was talking about the American public as a whole.

Pleeeaasse, you don't seem to reserve your judgment about liberals, homosexuals, other religions, etc.

[IzabellasHope]

in terms of government, it depends on the elected representative in power and the power of its constituency to lobby them...perhaps if the USA adopted a policy of compulsary voting it might give some of these powerful lobby groups less chance to unfairly influence the system..

[HeroesofApostasy]

That would be against freedom though....compulsory anything. I would love for voters to have to pass a basic US History, US Government, and US Constitution test. If they can't pass it.......no vote. There are too many ignorant people who vote from emotion and are stone stupid when it comes to our history and gov't. The last time they did a survey only 6% could pass such a test, that's beyond sad.

However, this would also be against the freedom to vote. Freedom is always a double edged sword.

[IzabellasHope]

atheism on its own is not dangerous, but organised and with an ideal in its head that is saving the world from some theistic menace is just as dangerous as any religion...one of the reasons why this kind of thinking is dangerous is because each of us interprets these things in their own way..you might just use the word metaphorically but the guy next to you might take it to mean something more drastic...hence we end up with things things like the cultural revolution

[HeroesofApostasy]

The Atheists of today are not typically authoritarian in any way. They're not going to walk into a place of worship and disturb it. No physical violence, this is an ideological war, a war of ideas. They just want religion out of gov't. The evangelicals wield enormous power through lobbying, money, and voting blocs. They are a state fiat religion, which is forbidden by the Constitution.

[HeroesofApostasy]

However, Atheism is not some monolithic group, there is no cohesion, and for the most part just individuals who vary greatly. Atheism is such a small part of their lives. Sure they have clubs now, but as far as formulating something monolithic most people oppose it in favor of individualism. They don't want to form a religion of non-religion.

[HeroesofApostasy]

The main objective is defusing fundamentalism and extremism.

[IzabellasHope]

evangelicals do not have so much power here as they do in the US...eg.i am not sure if its the same now..but when i went to a state school children were given a choice of subjects religious education or another subject...the class was split in two during that period..probably these days the religious education has been cut out...so in our case secular education has more dominance over religious..parents who want their children to have a religious education have to send them to a private school.

[HeroesofApostasy]

There is no forced religious education per se. The problem is they want to hinder legitimate science and teach creationism. However, they also whine about not being able to pray or read the Bible in school, which is a lie. They can pray and read the Bible (outside of class time) in school all they want. MANDATORY prayer and forced Bible readings by school officials are forbidden.

[HeroesofApostasy]

They think they have a monopoly on religion, what about people of other faiths? Why should they have to be forced to learn Christianity? What about people of no faith? We live in a plural nation with people of all faiths and no faith. That's the problem, that's why secularism is the only answer. However, I would almost be moved to say that a comparative religion class should be taught.

[IzabellasHope]

i have known just about every group in the world who claims they were persecuted for their beliefs..the christians say they were persecuted as well..islam claims its being persecuted..etc etc..do you see what i am getting at? communism was the extreme of what atheism and secularism can do..both extremes are dangerous..and the thing is it doesnt take much to tip the moderate into the fanatical..it happens very quickly.

[HeroesofApostasy]

Everyone has been persecuted at one time or another, even the Mormons. Certainly the Jewish people have a greater claim to this, but everyone most likely has a claim to persecution at one time or another.

I certainly don't endorse an Atheistic State for any reason. I don't believe in concentrating power, it always turns out bad. If I were to decide to change sides and become a theist again than I have shot myself in the foot advocating such a thing. I like freedom.

[IzabellasHope]

lets talk about duality instead...

atheism/theism...

two faces of the same coin depending on how it is flipped...

just like good and evil

happiness and sadness..

what do you think??

[HeroesofApostasy]

Atheism is simply a negation of theism. They keep each other at bay for the most part and that's a good thing. I'm glad I have the freedom in this day and age to be an apostate without being burned alive at the stake or stoned to death. Most religions have been defused from extremism with modernity. However, fundamentalism and extremism in religion is starting to grow.

I think that is the true fight of non-theists at this time.........religious fundamentalism and extremism.

[HeroesofApostasy]

Some unfortunate people still in theocracies are not so lucky.

[IzabellasHope]

I am extremely biased for instance and i am not afraid to admit it to myself..good grief..have you noticed the topic has completely changed..next we will be arguing over politics.. :-P i hate politics...

[IzabellasHope]

each government has an agenda..including secular governents and they use various means to force their agendas...there is no neautrality because people by nature are biased...some more than others..but if you dig deep enough there is always bias..

[HeroesofApostasy]

Everyone is bias. That's why you have to have constant checks and balances in the system. More importantly you have to have a knowledgeable public that holds that authority accountable. Our Constitutional Republic or Indirect Democracy is a good system, but unfortunately people have grown apathetic. The Constitution is subverted and no one cares as long as they get something out of the deal the gov't goes unchecked.

[HeroesofApostasy]

One of the big problems is there are no more heroes, genuine statesmen, great leaders, or presidents anymore. There are only professional politicians.....businessmen.

[HeroesofApostasy]

No inspiration.

[IzabellasHope]

what did you think of Kennedy?

[HeroesofApostasy]

I really can't answer that, I have not studied him well enough to formulate a sound opinion. There is so much conspiracy wrapped around him I can't really grasp fact from fiction.

[IzabellasHope]

and now i really must go or i will get stuck to the computer all day...btw...science and biology were my favourite subjects at school... good talking to you :-)

[IzabellasHope]

Us and Them? Secular societies also force their secularism and attack the fabric of non secular education...so who is oppressing whom? each society forces its views onto the rest depending on who is in power..Secualrism has also caused its share of bloodshed throughout history as can be seen with the history of communism and its outcomes...i am afraid of human nature and mob mentality regardless of which camp it comes from...live and let live i say...

[HeroesofApostasy]

This is a common misconception. Secularism is NOT Atheism or an Atheistic State, it's simply NEUTRALITY. What religion should the gov't endorse? Would you want to be forced to learn Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism???

Communism is Communism NOT Secularism.

Secularism is live and let live = gov't neutrality. Neither forced religion or an Atheistic State.

[IzabellasHope]

i didnt say that secularisms was equal to communism but it was most definately a secular and atheistic government that forced atheism onto its populace...if you read my statement you will see that i dont like any view to be forced down my throat regardless of which camp it is. i am simply pointing out the dangers of the us and them mentality which so often leads to bloodshed.Even secular schools force their views which is secularism..

[HeroesofApostasy]

That's just human nature. People will fight over anything. However, in studying religion I find most of the atrocities done in the name of a G-d have nothing to do with a G-d. It's simply over politics, resources, land, money, and power. Communism was largely an Atheistic State because the power and influence of the Russian Orthodox Church posed a threat to it's authority. Communism is Authoritarian so all competition had to be destroyed.

[HeroesofApostasy]

Or the religion simply becomes a puppet for that authoritarian government.

[IzabellasHope]

we should always question and debate...it is the only way to further our understanding...the problem seems to be that people are not really debating just talking at each other...anyway...i have to go...duty calls...catch you later

[IzabellasHope]

well it seems like just another religion to me :-)

pleasure to meet you agnostic atheist... i did get the distinct impression that you like debating the Rabbi and i get the impression that he enjoys debating you..

[HeroesofApostasy]

It can certainly look that way sometimes. As I said before it's more a retaliation to the evangelical/anti-science crowd for trying to influence the gov't. Atheism doesn't have to be a response to religion at all, but it would require them to back off. Secularism insures the most freedom for everyone both believers and non-believers. If they want to teach religion they can do it in religious schools.

I do enjoy arguing with the Rabbi much, he makes me think even if my position is unchanged.

[IzabellasHope]

it doesnt stop them from doing so and from attacking every aspect of Judaism...i dont think that is an excuse or a reason..i think its just plain arrogance and a desire to put people down simply because their belief does not gel with them..

[HeroesofApostasy]

You have two sides to Atheism right now. You have the "New Atheists" who want religion to go away completely and openly attack believers. Then you have the "Old Guard"....live and let live Atheists who are happy not to care what others do. They'll still debate you though. :)

As Atheism gets bigger and more cohesive into a movement, you will probably have a great schism between these two camps. Typically, the "New Atheists" do not like the "Old Guard" and consider them a weak link.

[HeroesofApostasy]

It happens, but Judaism is not horribly offensive and annoying like Christianity. There are no Jews running around telling others that they have to believe what Jews do or else they will spend an eternity roasting in a fiery pit.

[IzabellasHope]

exactly...we are in agreement over that...not only that but Jews basically tell you to be who you are born to be and that you dont have to be a Jew to get to heaven...thats always a bonus :-)

[IzabellasHope]

not lepers..but some "atheists" do rather remind me of the way born again christians like to go around a proselytise...i have a good channel for you..ill send you the link

[HeroesofApostasy]

In a way militant Atheism is a product of Evangelical Christianity. They want to force their beliefs on everyone and people are tired of it. They are a state fiat religion of the US. So Evangelical Christianity kept pushing and crossed the line, they created the monster and now they will have to deal with it. Many of us are former Evangelicals. We are only using their tactics against them.

Judaism keeps to itself and doesn't proselytize, it's not an issue.

[HeroesofApostasy]

I'm more of an Agnostic Atheist, a god could exist, but I have to reason to believe in one. Positive Atheists on the other end claim there are no gods.

I think "G-D" is just a metaphor for something much bigger than us.....an indescribable abstract idea that we cannot figure out. Not necessarily a "being."

I'll check out the link, thanks.

[HeroesofApostasy]

*no reason

[IzabellasHope]

great..i believe in those things too..but i dont put my faith in them :-)

[IzabellasHope]

and by the way..it still takes faith to believe in those observations to be correct :-P

[IzabellasHope]

actually i am very interested to know what it is that you believe in...

[IzabellasHope]

what DO you believe in?

[HeroesofApostasy]

A great deal of the same things you do.......sans any deities. Atheists are normal people, we're not lepers.

[IzabellasHope]

..just out of curiostiy..what is it exactly that you like about Judaism? is it the hats? the hair?

[HeroesofApostasy]

History, literature, culture, ideas.

[IzabellasHope]

you are making a whole heap of assumptions about me and what i believe which are entirely coloured by your own prejudices and perceptions of what G_d is...faith comes in many shapes and sizes and doesn't always rely upon G_d..but you are determined to be arrogant and make yourself seem bigger by trying to humiliate me and paint me as superstitious..if that is what makes you happy then you can paint me in whatever strokes you want...here...have a paint brush and have fun Rembrant

[HeroesofApostasy]

And likewise you have about me hypocrite. Atheism only addresses disbelief in deities it does not address what I do believe in.

[IzabellasHope]

theists don't believe that science is the ultimate truth..it is what it is..a bunch of observations and conclusions..no matter how you look at it...at the end of the day it is just science and in itself not proof of anything except how things appear to work and function

[HeroesofApostasy]

No one said science was the end all be all or that it was anything more than explanations for how things work. And you were just complaining about assumptions??

[IzabellasHope]

but unlike you i don't have faith in man and therefore i don't have faith in science as being the ultimate proof of anything other than the observation and conclusions that man makes in his striving

[HeroesofApostasy]

Well unlike you I don't need to believe in a big invisible tyrant outside of space and time. I don't fear death so an afterlife is useless. I don't fear the fact that we are completely insignificant in a huge and hostile universe. I don't need a lucky rabbits foot in the sky to make it through the day. It is what it is, we should make the best of what we have.

[IzabellasHope]

you are glued to this channel and to just about every video that is made...it has nothing to do with me or my statements but everything to do with you and you constant need to re-assert your belief in science and its conclusions..science is just observations of phenonema and classification of that phenonema..classifications made by man who needs to find order in the environment around him

[HeroesofApostasy]

I like Judaism and I like the Rabbi. I don't care for the deity.

Science has nothing to do with disbelief. There are plenty of theists who have no problem believing in science and a G-d. Your point is moot.

[IzabellasHope]

wow..i just picked up a pen and did the same..gravity all right...thank G_d for small favours..

[HeroesofApostasy]

Good now you understand how to demonstrate how gravity works, congratulations. I bet if you keep picking up and dropping the pen it will continually fall and the same results will happen every time. You can then logically through reason and evidence come to the conclusion that gravity exists, it works, and you can count on it to work. Absolutely no faith required to believe it.

[IzabellasHope]

as for G_d, i have no need to manifest Him at all..and as for demonstration...you are the one who engaged me in the subject as indeed you seem to be drawn towards this subject matter repeatedly

[HeroesofApostasy]

Only because of your silly "it takes faith" to believe in science statement.

[IzabellasHope]

will it? well then it seems that you have faith in the laws of gravity then doesn't it? You also have a lot of FAITH in your peers...

[HeroesofApostasy]

NO, I can demonstrate it right now. I just picked up a pen and dropped it.

GRAVITY!

[IzabellasHope]

typo..in most (cases)

[IzabellasHope]

i find it strange when i see a so called "atheist" continualy debating with "theists" ...a true atheist would have no need to discuss a deity that he knows doesn't exist, in most..its like debating with someone to give you reasons to prove that santa claus exsits..the louder the atheist cries nay..the clearer it becomes how much they want and need for someone to silence the doubt within their minds so that they can believe..

[HeroesofApostasy]

Nope, you can enjoy religion sans deities. It's nothing more than philosophies retarded step cousin. Plus there is the cultural/historical angle.

It actually worked the opposite for me. My doubts were about G-d and no one had answers, you have it backwards. However, I'm definitely not alone as religion is in decline and it's accelerating. Europe is going secular, America will follow. Each new generation is less likely to believe than the last.

[IzabellasHope]

also..i didnt posit a diety in the case of the rising sun..you did..i merely pointed out that from observation people can have have faith that the sun will come out tomorrow...so i guess it can follow that in the same way people can from observation of the all "scientifc" wonders around us have faith that all of this complexity has a rhyme and purpose and has been orchestrated...much as a mathematitian sees rhyme and patters in the numbers before him...

[HeroesofApostasy]

There is no need for faith, we know how gravity works, it's proven. We know that we will continue to revolve around the sun period.

[IzabellasHope]

heroes...you have faith in the scientist who gathered the evidence that puts forward the proposition...you have faith the information they have given you is correct..you have faith that the satelite images we see from space are real..how do you know they are real.did you see them yourself? did you gather all this evidence for yourself or did you just accept it as fact because someone else says they have..now if thats not faith i dont know what is..

[HeroesofApostasy]

No, there is no faith involved. At any time I can have access to the same techniques and formulas used. Plus, it is peer reviewed and constantly retested and reevaluated. Science unlike religion is not static. This is just a cutesy way for theists to try to equate us to their non-evidence for deities.

Feel free to manifest and demonstrate your deity anytime.

[HeroesofApostasy]

That's not faith, faith is believing without evidence. The sun doesn't rise, we revolve around the sun, there is no faith about it. Barring some cosmic disaster we know we will continue to always revolve around it.

[rabbichaimmoshe]

faith is that the things we take on observation will continue for there is no compelling reason that they continue.

faith also sees beyond knowledge that what we don't understand we accept on faith-good morning!

[HeroesofApostasy]

Of course there is a compelling reason, in the case of the sun.......gravity. I see no reason to use faith to posit a deity when the laws we know sustain the Universe just fine without a deity being involved. To me it's simply additional and unnecessary.

The Mayans had faith the sun would "rise" if they ripped the still beating heart out of another human and sacrificed them to insure it. Luckily, we know better now.

[HeroesofApostasy]

Much in the same way that I can find studying Judaism, it's literature, history, and people, fascinating without a belief in the deity.

[IzabellasHope]

Faith comes from knowledge...knowledge comes from observation...faith without knowledge is not faith at all...if i observe that the sun rises in the morning throughout the years then i can have faith that if i wake at a certain hour i will have light to guide me.even science is based on a certain amount supposition..therefore it also has elements of faith..

[HeroesofApostasy]

Truth is Truth regardless of feelings and emotions......I completely agree. I fail to see how any religion is the pursuit of it considering the "faith" factor, but I digress.

[IzabellasHope]

apart from that..regardless of my background i can understand the longing to return...perhaps that is the true alyah...the alyah we make in our hearts..

[IzabellasHope]

it is a return to the source...if one accepts Hashem as the One True G_d, then one has to accept the teachings of the Torah to be the correct and authentic teachings, and the best people to intrepret the Torah is the people who wrote it and re wrote it with such care throughout the centuries...before that we had no knowledge of Hashem.