science are not god. its the only way we explore and understand.we keep learning universe.endless learning=science.forget the space,our land and seas are not fully discover yet.then sometime we look to the sky and ask again; why this is so endless? while we were getting weak...then again; Why my God?
False reasoning. By the same logic, the Invisible Flying Unicorn must also be real. However if you can't sense something, it is most likely less real than life, which can be sensed
freemanr..to say it is dishonest..to have surity..of god..reveals a surity /you would deney others..life is very complex..
those who would have life occur by chance/yet have been unable to replicate it scientificly..indeed can only speculate..on the cause/in fact many studiouslty avoid the first life..contending that life evolves..yet in this contention are unable to state definitivly the first life/from which they claim all living evolved..god is the nature that underpins natural-selection
The inability to replicate something does not signify the need for an intelligent design. On cannot singlehandedly create a language, yet that does not mean languages have a single creator. On the contrary, that means they are built from the bottom up.
Language was not just an arbitrary assignment of words, and it certainly isn't today. Its slowly developed as more and more people are immersed in it. Little intelligence is required.
Evolution, which is of more relevance, requires absolutely no intelligence whatsoever.
You want to show of your ignorance? Did you know that "theory" is the highest state that an scientific idea can achieve?
to claim a theory/as a science is pure delusion..science IS SUPPOSED to have faulsifyability..ie have certain facts that if disproved..invalidate the theory/
please reveal your cleverness/by stating the faulsifyables of evolution/reveal one evolution of genus..into new genus
simply speaking science talks about species/because genus cant evolve out of genus
THIS HAS NEVER been observed/not one[all evolution is intra genus]species are within genus
Yes, words meanings change, just like nature changes, which points to a constantly changing world, and a constantly changing universe; had it been created by God, there would be such perfection that change wouldn't be necessary.
A theory is an element of science. It is falsifiable, in that if something were disproven, the theory may be invalidated, but the same is with every theory, such as the theory of quantum mechanics. In this sense, creationism is not science, because it can't be disputed
@freemanrevolution - Creationism can be disputed, create life and you will have disproved creationism. That's all there is to it, it isn't easy, but if creationism is wrong, then it should be doable. If life does not need to be created, then science at one point or the other should be able to replicate how life originated. Abiogenesis looks good as a theory on paper, but it doesn't explain "life" it just explains how inanimate matter could mimic life.
Your assertion about creationism is complete nonsense. It is like saying that it can be disputed that black holes don't exist, because all you have to do is find me a black hole. Making a claim that is not based on any evidence but still not disprovable is not a theory. Its a filling in the gap. A claim is only a theory if it is backed up by empirical evidence
Apart from your pretentious philosophical blabbering, answer this question: Would proving that God is not needed to create life disprove creationism or not? Taking into consideration that creationism claims that God is the SOLE creator of life? Think about it. And the evidence leading to the "theory" of God's existence are abundant, they are all around us. Look at your newborn baby and then come and tell me that the universe is Godless.
Let me let you in on a little secret. Just because there isn't an explanation for something does not mean you can take the liberty to make something up. Your God is just as valid as me saying that a group of highly intelligent extraterrestrials set off a device that created the universe and anihilated themselves in the process.
You're missing my point, explaining matter than has no beginning requires belief in supernatural intervention and that intervention had to be conscious. The only logical "explanation" is that the universe was nothing but complete void with no matter at some point, and matter one days just popped into existence. It's either that of that matter has always been there which I'm sure no scientific mind no matter how great can wrap his or her mind around.
Only a person who is too egotistic would after contemplating the world we live in assume he knows everything there is to know about it to the point where he can assert it was created without a God. Can you honestly believe the matter of the universe had no beginning (the matter that resulted in the big bang) when at the same time you don't believe in the supernatural?
You're appealing to emotion, and you fail to understand my position. As an agnostic, I think that whether there is a creator, or a group of creators, or anything else, is unknowable.
However evidence points away from the perfect, omnipotent Abrahamic God. Why are 99% of all species that ever lived extinct? Why is the universe billions of years old, yet life on our planet is only hundreds of millions years old? Why do stars die? Why do they implode? How can you can you say this is a design ?
The fact that God is perfect has no barring on this world, this world was never intended to be perfect in the sense that you are implying, in Abrahamic faiths perfection is what we get in the afterlife. And just because you don't know what the wisdom is in something doesn't mean there is no wisdom. The universe looks old to us but to a being outside the boundaries of time, it's a drop in the sea, a short period of prepping and staging maybe?
No, you missed the point entirely. Actually two points. The first is how do we know that God exists, and no other God does? The second is that since we don't know the conditions needed to create the universe in the first place, we can't make any "logical explanation" without falling for the "God of the Gaps" fallacy
I believe that is where atheists and agnostics got it wrong. Do you truly believe that billions of people believe in the Abrahamic God with no proof? Do you think Muslims believe in a God and a prophet that everybody else these days seem to believe are "hostile" just because they were told to do so?
Are you really using that kind of reasoning? If you say that something is true because billions believe it to be true, that's appeal to authority. A logical fallacy
Excuse me, when did I claim that billions of people have "inferior minds"? Do I immediately write them off as such when I disagree with a good number of people? Are you writing off all those people who don't accept Islam as "inferior people"?
"Are you writing off all..." No, but then again it's a different case atheist think that theists are gullible fools (not assuming been told that by atheists) because they can't see there is no god, since I believe in God, I know believing is not a matter related to wits and mental capacities, so obviously I don't think people who don't believe in Islam are mentally inferior.
So, youre assuming that because a group of atheists told you THEY think theists are gullible fools, that means all atheists, and even agnostics (including myself) think the same way? If not, why the hell did you bring it up?
And don't you find it even a little bit unjust that all the people who reject Islam will be going to hell? If its not based on intelligence or logic, then why such a punishment?
"...that all the people who reject Islam will be going to hell" Yes actually, all God is asking human beings to do is to believe in him and only him, the one true God, in Islam any sin is forgivable except for ascribing no partners to him. That is basically the gist of ISlam, Our presence on earth is a test towards that end. IF worshiping God is the reason were on this earth to begin with, then yes, you'll get your punishment for failing that test, and the word is belief +works.
As a Muslim to me the Quran is proof enough, it's a miracle of language (in its original language) as well as content. It challenges the mind, not just the spirit. I'm not saying you should take my word for it, but don't judge the truth of what I'm saying without at least reading the Quran.
I have read the Quran, and to be honest, if you think it is miraculous, I think you have lost touch with reality. Btw you used straw man when you claimed I didn't read the Quran
Well to get a taste of the Quranic miracle you have to read it in its original language, Arabic, the language is so eloquent that pagan Arabs at the time of the prophet who were at the times Masters of poetry and language could only explain it by calling is sorcery - as opposed to just accepting that it came from God. There's always something lost in translation, whether be it meaning or beauty.
So, if God wanted mankind to follow this religion, why can its sacred text only be truly understood in its original Arabic? Why aren't there several Qurans written verbatim of each other across the world, in several languages, all uncorrupted? Is that too much to ask of your God?
Its not even enough to say that it was immediately revered. It took several wars for Muhammad to take over the entire peninsula, and several uprisings after that to convince everyong
I already answered that question, if the Quran was sent in any language, you'd find people who don't speak that language asking that same question, the problem isn't with the Arabic language, it's with the fact that no matter what you are translating from and what you are translating into , there will be something lost in translation. But Arabic isn't a dead language, it's the mother tongue of over 250 million people. Do you know of any universally understood language out there?
"Why aren't there several Qurans..." and then you tell me my arguments are fallacious!!! . And what about when language itself changes? what then? another Quran should be revealed? How many languages has there been since Islam begun? how many languages are there now? And I'm including even languages spoken by only small minorities (so that they too can be saved). So, what you want is for God to have a standby press ready to issue a new translation of the Quran every time language changes (cont)
Actually no, standard Arabic isn't changing, it's standard. Read a bit about the Arabic language, it's development was not like that of the English language or any other language I know of.
Because with your line of logic, a new revised translation of the Quran every couple of centuries to make room from language development, because the main issue here making sure people won't misunderstand something just because of language variations.
Only 1/30th of all people speak Arabic, so if Islam is to be a universal religion, then it has a huge language barrier to overcome.
And yet, the Quran, as you claim, can be understood by today's Arab speakers, then language development isn't the problem. And since languages are actually dying out as opposed to coming into existence, this really shouldn't be a heavy task for an omnipotent deity
So basically this is a test for God to make your life easier? Yes,God could do what you are asking for, but he didn't, I personally find your request unrealistic and unnecessary, it's not a major obstacle because the main pillars of Islam are clear, and are not open for interpretation, what makes a Muslim what he is isn't something disputed upon, you want hundreds of Quran versions floating around just to make it easier for you not to lose some of the details in the translation.
And again, even if God did give humanity what you're asking for, human nature would find away to dispute about it. But finally, it's all a test, do you think the only thing keeping people from embracing Islam is quibbling over words in translations? Those who don't want to open their hearts won't believe no matter what. You have to do your own homework, I'm not here to defend Islam for me, I'm already a Muslim, I'm defending it for people like you.
But just so that you know, God did reveal 7 verbatim versions (Ahruf) of the Quran in the very beginning accommodating the various dialects of the Arabian tribes at the time. And only one remains now after the Arabic language has become more standardized. So, God did actually do what you just asked for. But asking for it to be done for every language on earth, is unrealistic and unnecessary.
How do you know which portrayal of god - if any - is the true one? you study the teachings of each religion you can get your hands on and weigh the merits of each. If you ask me, believing in more than one God is just not instinctive, "too many cooks ruins the dish (or something to that effect)" so we're left with monotheism. And do you think it's a coincidence that all three monotheistic religions claim to have been revealed by the same God? (even if the older religion refuses to accept that)
Your reasoing in following monotheism is flawed. If you do a science project, is it easier and better when you do it by yourself or in a group?
No, I don't think it's a coincidence. Christianity started out as a Jewish sect, and Muhammad just grabbed the coattails of the world's perdominant religion to gain power.
Tell me, if you judge a religion based on it's merits, then you know right from wrong. Otherwise you couldn't judge them. So why do you need religion in the first place?
Religion isn't only about right from wrong, it's about purpose, origins and life after death. The meaning of life has been the "holy grail" of humanity ever since the dawn of time, in religion we find the meaning of life. And if prophet MOhammad (PBUH) was riding the coattails of Judaism and Christianity then why didn't he claim to be the son of God or the Messiah or even the reincarnation of god himself?
The meaning of life is a question that deserves better than a made up answer. When you tell someone that you know exactly what the meaning of life is, you are lying to them. Do you know why? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers beyond mine.
Muhammad claimed to be the very last prophet, the mercy of mankind, al-Insan al-Kamil (the perfect man), and ultimately infallible. Thats a pretty big claim already. Its safe to say that he was not very modest.
"deserves better than a made up answer." You were criticizing me for assuming earlier, and now you're making your own assumptions, you're assuming it's made up, worse yet, you're basing that on your already held beliefs that religion is false.
Our prophet was not a perfect man, granted his was guarded by God from falling into major sins, but he made mistakes, he never said he was perfect. But he is the perfect role model for the Islamic faith.
Yes, you can argue that each later religion plagiarized the older one, Christianity might have copied Judaism and Islam might have copied Christianity... But isn't it just possible that all three religions were revealed by the same God? Wouldn't that make more sense than believing that somehow several desert dwellers throughout history were able to pull the greatest con of all time hundreds of years apart?
It certainly not a great con. You may call it that, but that's pure subjectivity. And I do agree your assertion is possible, just as it is possible that in two minutes, meteor will come down and crush you. Possible
The most influential men in history somehow pulled off the exact same con and were able to become the spiritual rulers of billions of people getting them to believe in an invisible being who live in the sky so sincerely that even today in the age of technological advancement, more and more people are willing to buy into their supposedly false doctrines.
Actually, it's less and less people who are falling for this deception. According to Zogby and PEW, for every one person who gains a faith, between two and three lose faith in God. For thousands of years, it was easy to convince illiterates to believe this, but now those myths are dying off
Yes, but do Zogby and PEW tell you which faith people are losing and which faith is being gained? Islam is the fastest growing religion, people are dropping out of Christianity and other religions, and many of them find their way into Islam... so in general, yes, more people are losing faith that those gaining it, but if you look at Islam, you'll find the ratio of those dropping out to those going in quite in favor of those who embrace ISlam.
If you look at Islam, most of its growth comes from higher than average birthrates. In fact, more people convert to Christianity than Islam, and about 75% of those who enter Islam leaver after 3-5 years.
Even in just raw growth, atheism and agnosticism still outpace both of these religions. And this is without missionaries or any other widespread effort to "convert" people.
For a person who talks about proof and evidence you're taking too much liberty with numbers without giving references for them. You just made the claim that more people convert to Christianity. care to show me a reliable reference for that claim?
You really find it more plausible to think that you are simply smarter than Billions of other people dwelling on this planet? And you find it easier to accept that explanation that to say perhaps those people are on to something - I better take a deeper look.
No, I just find your logic fallacious. I don't find myself to be smarter, but I'm certainly not going to follow what everyone else is doing just because they are
"I just find your logic fallacious" Exactly, YOU "find" my logic fallacious, it doesn't mean that is true. You're already conditioned against belief in God or Islam, just as you would argue that I'm conditioned to accept Islam. Doesn't mean my argument is correct, but it certainly doesn't imply that it isn't. Some see my arguments quite compelling, you don't, that's your own business.
The only people who might see your arguments as compelling are either the wary, the already convinced, or yourself. However, its not just my own opinion, but I have even proven to you that your arguments do not follow logic. I have literally shown you, and brought up the names of the fallacies you are using.
I am not conditioned against belief in God. I was born Jewish, to two religious parents, and based on my own research, I gave up faith in God altogether. But you seem to follow like a sheep
"The only people who might see your arguments as compelling are either the wary" Again, you're giving an opinion, which I thought there was no place for in a "logical" discussion. It seems you're fine with yourself generalizing and assuming but but you don't hesitate to call me out on my "fallacies" and assumptions.
"But you seem to follow like a sheep " Thank you for resorting to that kind of language - I said conditioned and you say follow like a sheep, another assumption that you are making about how I came to believe what I believe. Nice!
"do we know that God exists, and no other God does?" First you believe that "a god" exists by examining the universe, and then believing that such a God would not leave us wandering aimlessly and would have certainly left us some sort of directions to take our cue from, and you look for those directions. I for one can't believe that God only a few people can truly "know" God, and if a religion is exclusive and by invitation only, I tend to take it off the list. It's solving by elimination.
You're making assumptions based on no evidence. The truth is if we are created, we don't know if whoever created us is still interfering with us, or even still exists. If you assume, you're being dishonest with yourself
You don't know if the creator still exists, but I do, I have the Quran for one. Perhaps you read it, although I "doubt" you read all of it, but even if you did, I'm not going to blame you for not finding a translation as unique as I know the original Quran in Arabic is. And before you ask, if God had revealed the Quran in any language it would have been miraculous in that language and any translation made by man would be lacking, it just happens to be in Arabic.
Telling me "Its true because I think its true" is not an argument. Remember, you approached me, not the other way around. If you are now upset that you are realizing you can't assert what you are trying to assert, don't blame me. Just remember-don't bite off more than you can chew.
Answer me this, why didn't God reveal the Quran in EVERY language?
I think I have shown you how your "logic" is fallacious. It is also not instinctive- if it was, why did Abrahamic monotheism appear only 3000 years ago, out of our 200000+ year history?
Think of how without any scientific instruments of measurements, you would "logically assume" the sun revolves around the earth. Given that this isn't true, it serves as a testament to the fact that humans are prone to get shit dead wrong. So, in my opinion, in place of certainty, all that is left is doubt
No, you've shown me that you are not convinced by it, that doesn't make it fallacious.
"It is also not instinctive..." for one who supposedly read the Quran that is a lousy question to ask - in Islam we believe prophets had been sent to all nations all throughout history - for all we know Buddha could have been a prophet and then his people made him into a God. Just because we don't have documented records of those prophets doesn't mean they weren't sent.
"No, you've shown me that you are not convinced by it, that doesn't make it fallacious.
"
You misunderstand. I am not convinced because it IS fallacious.
You may believe that prophets were sent to every nation, but answer me these questions two-What happened to their teachings, and Why did Muhammad "succeed" whereas these so-called prophets didn't?
I recommend that if you want to continue this, lets use PM
You think the big bang means there's no god, when even with the big bang,something was floating in space for an eternity without a beginning, and that is something even science can't explain.
@freemanrevolution - I'm no scientist, but I always thought "Fact" was the highest state a scientific idea could achieve. I don't think you can say "The earth revolves around the sun" is a theory, now, can you? It was a theory at one point, but now it's a "fact". Am I missing something?
If you think that a "fact" is the highest state, then don't bother being a scientist any time soon. The Earth revolving around the sun is not a theory, but this is because its not an idea, or at least no longer is. Centuries ago, when it required us to speculate and gather information, it may have been, but now it is merely an observation, because it requires empirical data.
So, while observations and empirical information are present, they are not ideas. Just results from logic
freemanrev..we can safely say that life is real/thus god must also be realised to have a reality/life in all its possabilities reveals the hand that is cause..currently my neighbours are having a party..they havnt said this to me..but going by the loud music..the sounds of people having fun..these indicate to me a party/just so..i see/hear/smell/taste /experience or be aware of other life..knowing its cause/god..is in the main good..i chose to see the good of life as reflecting the good of god
If you choose to see one thing and not the other, thats also intellectual dishonesty.
How do you know your senses are not deceiving you? Haven't you watched the video, and figure out what highflyingdutchman was trying to claim? Direct your complaints to him
Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion. (3:185)
Here is the thing, both translation is basically saying the same thing. webster dictionary illusion is:
1 a obsolete : the action of deceiving b (1) : the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled : misapprehension (2) : an instance of such deception
Do you think its okay for us to fight over translation? Isn't it fitna? for we both agree translation of quran isnt 100% precise.
No but some people want us to believe that this life is illusionary and that everything we see does not exist, rather, it is just a "Dream", and that we will wake up to the real life, this is what these freaks want us to believe
Since this world is misleading us, it is fair to say its an illusion. But the catch is that we must keep our mind straight and win the battle, even when the enemy try to deceive (illusion) us
Akhi are you serious in your words? What are you doubting here? That this life is real or what? The verse does not say that at all my brother, it says that this life is vanity and play, not that it is a dream or not real, akhi this is a dangerous philosophy, to believe that this life is not real is Kufr(Disbelief), this life is real because Allaah created it, and the life after this life is also real because Allaah created it.
good thinking...everything could just be an illusion. What we see may be an illusion and it could really be something beyond our imagination. What we smell could be an illusion. etc..etc..
one second its working..next second..'it'..is dead..there is no more electrical signal..but thats only input
just as a dream is electrical;..where the input..i find it easier to feel..we[our brain]is more that the flesh we call me
i feel good..i feel bad..thats based on our imput..but we are about output..what difference can/have we made..what output has resulted from our input?
did we love others/help others..or just helped ourselves?
just imagine if all the sensory neurons going to the brain were cut of,we would still have the same consciousness but without feeling anything about the "outside" universe
that would be like hanging in the darkness of space,
seeing,hearing,smelling,tasting or feeling nothing
interesting concept cutting off sensory inputs..its sort of what we are doing..what with watching vidios/tv/adverts/in the visual..or music/radio..in the auditry
then we get into airconditioning/warming when its cold or cooling when hot..little wonder many dont know what is real[anymore]
even such learnings gained from walking/lets drive[or are we being driven]have credit..yet the credit is debt..have plenty/even in scare-city.
little wonder people dont get god.were missing his lessons
the virtual reality or the dreams themselves are enough to get curious about the fact about our lives
sometimes when I do the exact same thing at exact same time day after day,it just makes me think which day is real,is the time really passing by,or "am i still living in the same moment that i lived yesterday "bcs the time passes so quick,yet when you do the same things,it gets something like Déjà vu
and also there are atheist matterialists who are sure about themselves .. :P
I like this video...it really makes a person think....
it's an interesting idea.
nadia01ss 2 years ago
science are not god. its the only way we explore and understand.we keep learning universe.endless learning=science.forget the space,our land and seas are not fully discover yet.then sometime we look to the sky and ask again; why this is so endless? while we were getting weak...then again; Why my God?
murm6 2 years ago
If life isn't real, then God isn't either
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
you cant "feel","smell","taste" or "see" God
so what is the connection
just the opposite if this life is an illusion,there must be some kind of source of it
happy new year X=D
HighFlyingDutchman 2 years ago
False reasoning. By the same logic, the Invisible Flying Unicorn must also be real. However if you can't sense something, it is most likely less real than life, which can be sensed
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
you cant "feel","smell","taste" or "see" the power that created you
now you are free to give a name
HighFlyingDutchman 2 years ago
In other words, make something up? That is intellectual dishonesty in a nutshell. If you can't sense God, you can never be sure he exists.
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
freemanr..to say it is dishonest..to have surity..of god..reveals a surity /you would deney others..life is very complex..
those who would have life occur by chance/yet have been unable to replicate it scientificly..indeed can only speculate..on the cause/in fact many studiouslty avoid the first life..contending that life evolves..yet in this contention are unable to state definitivly the first life/from which they claim all living evolved..god is the nature that underpins natural-selection
oneundergod 2 years ago
The inability to replicate something does not signify the need for an intelligent design. On cannot singlehandedly create a language, yet that does not mean languages have a single creator. On the contrary, that means they are built from the bottom up.
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
Someone had to inteligently join a word to a given meaning..thus language was born
Before then.. it was only a thought..
of course language has no single creator..but the thought that gave rise to the word did
Here is a brand/new word..glibilish..[its where a reply seems glib..but is in fact blabber/giberish..Where the reply egsamle..is unrelated to topic/..
The reply oversimplfied..[it has become a dorkinism]..a dorkins evolution..[the evolution/..you get..when you only got a theory.
oneundergod 2 years ago
Language was not just an arbitrary assignment of words, and it certainly isn't today. Its slowly developed as more and more people are immersed in it. Little intelligence is required.
Evolution, which is of more relevance, requires absolutely no intelligence whatsoever.
You want to show of your ignorance? Did you know that "theory" is the highest state that an scientific idea can achieve?
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
gay isnt gay..words meanings change
to claim a theory/as a science is pure delusion..science IS SUPPOSED to have faulsifyability..ie have certain facts that if disproved..invalidate the theory/
please reveal your cleverness/by stating the faulsifyables of evolution/reveal one evolution of genus..into new genus
simply speaking science talks about species/because genus cant evolve out of genus
THIS HAS NEVER been observed/not one[all evolution is intra genus]species are within genus
oneundergod 2 years ago
Yes, words meanings change, just like nature changes, which points to a constantly changing world, and a constantly changing universe; had it been created by God, there would be such perfection that change wouldn't be necessary.
A theory is an element of science. It is falsifiable, in that if something were disproven, the theory may be invalidated, but the same is with every theory, such as the theory of quantum mechanics. In this sense, creationism is not science, because it can't be disputed
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
@freemanrevolution - Creationism can be disputed, create life and you will have disproved creationism. That's all there is to it, it isn't easy, but if creationism is wrong, then it should be doable. If life does not need to be created, then science at one point or the other should be able to replicate how life originated. Abiogenesis looks good as a theory on paper, but it doesn't explain "life" it just explains how inanimate matter could mimic life.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Your assertion about creationism is complete nonsense. It is like saying that it can be disputed that black holes don't exist, because all you have to do is find me a black hole. Making a claim that is not based on any evidence but still not disprovable is not a theory. Its a filling in the gap. A claim is only a theory if it is backed up by empirical evidence
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
Apart from your pretentious philosophical blabbering, answer this question: Would proving that God is not needed to create life disprove creationism or not? Taking into consideration that creationism claims that God is the SOLE creator of life? Think about it. And the evidence leading to the "theory" of God's existence are abundant, they are all around us. Look at your newborn baby and then come and tell me that the universe is Godless.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Let me let you in on a little secret. Just because there isn't an explanation for something does not mean you can take the liberty to make something up. Your God is just as valid as me saying that a group of highly intelligent extraterrestrials set off a device that created the universe and anihilated themselves in the process.
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
You're missing my point, explaining matter than has no beginning requires belief in supernatural intervention and that intervention had to be conscious. The only logical "explanation" is that the universe was nothing but complete void with no matter at some point, and matter one days just popped into existence. It's either that of that matter has always been there which I'm sure no scientific mind no matter how great can wrap his or her mind around.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Only a person who is too egotistic would after contemplating the world we live in assume he knows everything there is to know about it to the point where he can assert it was created without a God. Can you honestly believe the matter of the universe had no beginning (the matter that resulted in the big bang) when at the same time you don't believe in the supernatural?
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
You're appealing to emotion, and you fail to understand my position. As an agnostic, I think that whether there is a creator, or a group of creators, or anything else, is unknowable.
However evidence points away from the perfect, omnipotent Abrahamic God. Why are 99% of all species that ever lived extinct? Why is the universe billions of years old, yet life on our planet is only hundreds of millions years old? Why do stars die? Why do they implode? How can you can you say this is a design ?
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
The fact that God is perfect has no barring on this world, this world was never intended to be perfect in the sense that you are implying, in Abrahamic faiths perfection is what we get in the afterlife. And just because you don't know what the wisdom is in something doesn't mean there is no wisdom. The universe looks old to us but to a being outside the boundaries of time, it's a drop in the sea, a short period of prepping and staging maybe?
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
No, you missed the point entirely. Actually two points. The first is how do we know that God exists, and no other God does? The second is that since we don't know the conditions needed to create the universe in the first place, we can't make any "logical explanation" without falling for the "God of the Gaps" fallacy
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
I believe that is where atheists and agnostics got it wrong. Do you truly believe that billions of people believe in the Abrahamic God with no proof? Do you think Muslims believe in a God and a prophet that everybody else these days seem to believe are "hostile" just because they were told to do so?
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Are you really using that kind of reasoning? If you say that something is true because billions believe it to be true, that's appeal to authority. A logical fallacy
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
I didn't say something is true because billions believe in it, but writing off those billions as "inferior minds" is wrong.
abujana1976 2 years ago
Excuse me, when did I claim that billions of people have "inferior minds"? Do I immediately write them off as such when I disagree with a good number of people? Are you writing off all those people who don't accept Islam as "inferior people"?
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
"Are you writing off all..." No, but then again it's a different case atheist think that theists are gullible fools (not assuming been told that by atheists) because they can't see there is no god, since I believe in God, I know believing is not a matter related to wits and mental capacities, so obviously I don't think people who don't believe in Islam are mentally inferior.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
So, youre assuming that because a group of atheists told you THEY think theists are gullible fools, that means all atheists, and even agnostics (including myself) think the same way? If not, why the hell did you bring it up?
And don't you find it even a little bit unjust that all the people who reject Islam will be going to hell? If its not based on intelligence or logic, then why such a punishment?
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
"...that all the people who reject Islam will be going to hell" Yes actually, all God is asking human beings to do is to believe in him and only him, the one true God, in Islam any sin is forgivable except for ascribing no partners to him. That is basically the gist of ISlam, Our presence on earth is a test towards that end. IF worshiping God is the reason were on this earth to begin with, then yes, you'll get your punishment for failing that test, and the word is belief +works.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
As a Muslim to me the Quran is proof enough, it's a miracle of language (in its original language) as well as content. It challenges the mind, not just the spirit. I'm not saying you should take my word for it, but don't judge the truth of what I'm saying without at least reading the Quran.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
I have read the Quran, and to be honest, if you think it is miraculous, I think you have lost touch with reality. Btw you used straw man when you claimed I didn't read the Quran
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
Well to get a taste of the Quranic miracle you have to read it in its original language, Arabic, the language is so eloquent that pagan Arabs at the time of the prophet who were at the times Masters of poetry and language could only explain it by calling is sorcery - as opposed to just accepting that it came from God. There's always something lost in translation, whether be it meaning or beauty.
abujana1976 2 years ago
So, if God wanted mankind to follow this religion, why can its sacred text only be truly understood in its original Arabic? Why aren't there several Qurans written verbatim of each other across the world, in several languages, all uncorrupted? Is that too much to ask of your God?
Its not even enough to say that it was immediately revered. It took several wars for Muhammad to take over the entire peninsula, and several uprisings after that to convince everyong
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
I already answered that question, if the Quran was sent in any language, you'd find people who don't speak that language asking that same question, the problem isn't with the Arabic language, it's with the fact that no matter what you are translating from and what you are translating into , there will be something lost in translation. But Arabic isn't a dead language, it's the mother tongue of over 250 million people. Do you know of any universally understood language out there?
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
"I already answered that question"
No you didn't. I asked EVERY language, not ANY language. If Islam is a universal religion, why aren't Qurans written for everyone to understand?
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
"Why aren't there several Qurans..." and then you tell me my arguments are fallacious!!! . And what about when language itself changes? what then? another Quran should be revealed? How many languages has there been since Islam begun? how many languages are there now? And I'm including even languages spoken by only small minorities (so that they too can be saved). So, what you want is for God to have a standby press ready to issue a new translation of the Quran every time language changes (cont)
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
If its fallacious, then which fallacy is that an example of?
Never mind that. Irrelevant.Isn't Arabic also changing? And is this too much to ask from an all-powerful, all knowing God?
" So, what you want is for God to have a standby press ready to issue a new translation of the Quran every time language changes"
Like I said, too much to ask? Arabic wasn't even a major language at the time Islam was created. It only became so as a result of Islam.
But the main point is, why can't God do this
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
Try not to answer reply to my comments until I'm finished my response please. unless of course if you're trying to overwhelm me.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Actually no, standard Arabic isn't changing, it's standard. Read a bit about the Arabic language, it's development was not like that of the English language or any other language I know of.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Because with your line of logic, a new revised translation of the Quran every couple of centuries to make room from language development, because the main issue here making sure people won't misunderstand something just because of language variations.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Only 1/30th of all people speak Arabic, so if Islam is to be a universal religion, then it has a huge language barrier to overcome.
And yet, the Quran, as you claim, can be understood by today's Arab speakers, then language development isn't the problem. And since languages are actually dying out as opposed to coming into existence, this really shouldn't be a heavy task for an omnipotent deity
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
So basically this is a test for God to make your life easier? Yes,God could do what you are asking for, but he didn't, I personally find your request unrealistic and unnecessary, it's not a major obstacle because the main pillars of Islam are clear, and are not open for interpretation, what makes a Muslim what he is isn't something disputed upon, you want hundreds of Quran versions floating around just to make it easier for you not to lose some of the details in the translation.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
And again, even if God did give humanity what you're asking for, human nature would find away to dispute about it. But finally, it's all a test, do you think the only thing keeping people from embracing Islam is quibbling over words in translations? Those who don't want to open their hearts won't believe no matter what. You have to do your own homework, I'm not here to defend Islam for me, I'm already a Muslim, I'm defending it for people like you.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Since youre refusing to switch over to PM, which would be easier, I guess I will take the initiative. From now on, I will respond via PM
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
Oops, I saw this a little too late, OK, I'll switch to PM. Sorry, it just didn't cross my mind that you would want to.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
But just so that you know, God did reveal 7 verbatim versions (Ahruf) of the Quran in the very beginning accommodating the various dialects of the Arabian tribes at the time. And only one remains now after the Arabic language has become more standardized. So, God did actually do what you just asked for. But asking for it to be done for every language on earth, is unrealistic and unnecessary.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
How do you know which portrayal of god - if any - is the true one? you study the teachings of each religion you can get your hands on and weigh the merits of each. If you ask me, believing in more than one God is just not instinctive, "too many cooks ruins the dish (or something to that effect)" so we're left with monotheism. And do you think it's a coincidence that all three monotheistic religions claim to have been revealed by the same God? (even if the older religion refuses to accept that)
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Your reasoing in following monotheism is flawed. If you do a science project, is it easier and better when you do it by yourself or in a group?
No, I don't think it's a coincidence. Christianity started out as a Jewish sect, and Muhammad just grabbed the coattails of the world's perdominant religion to gain power.
Tell me, if you judge a religion based on it's merits, then you know right from wrong. Otherwise you couldn't judge them. So why do you need religion in the first place?
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
Religion isn't only about right from wrong, it's about purpose, origins and life after death. The meaning of life has been the "holy grail" of humanity ever since the dawn of time, in religion we find the meaning of life. And if prophet MOhammad (PBUH) was riding the coattails of Judaism and Christianity then why didn't he claim to be the son of God or the Messiah or even the reincarnation of god himself?
abujana1976 2 years ago
The meaning of life is a question that deserves better than a made up answer. When you tell someone that you know exactly what the meaning of life is, you are lying to them. Do you know why? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers beyond mine.
Muhammad claimed to be the very last prophet, the mercy of mankind, al-Insan al-Kamil (the perfect man), and ultimately infallible. Thats a pretty big claim already. Its safe to say that he was not very modest.
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
"deserves better than a made up answer." You were criticizing me for assuming earlier, and now you're making your own assumptions, you're assuming it's made up, worse yet, you're basing that on your already held beliefs that religion is false.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Our prophet was not a perfect man, granted his was guarded by God from falling into major sins, but he made mistakes, he never said he was perfect. But he is the perfect role model for the Islamic faith.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Yes, you can argue that each later religion plagiarized the older one, Christianity might have copied Judaism and Islam might have copied Christianity... But isn't it just possible that all three religions were revealed by the same God? Wouldn't that make more sense than believing that somehow several desert dwellers throughout history were able to pull the greatest con of all time hundreds of years apart?
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
It certainly not a great con. You may call it that, but that's pure subjectivity. And I do agree your assertion is possible, just as it is possible that in two minutes, meteor will come down and crush you. Possible
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
The most influential men in history somehow pulled off the exact same con and were able to become the spiritual rulers of billions of people getting them to believe in an invisible being who live in the sky so sincerely that even today in the age of technological advancement, more and more people are willing to buy into their supposedly false doctrines.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
Actually, it's less and less people who are falling for this deception. According to Zogby and PEW, for every one person who gains a faith, between two and three lose faith in God. For thousands of years, it was easy to convince illiterates to believe this, but now those myths are dying off
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
Yes, but do Zogby and PEW tell you which faith people are losing and which faith is being gained? Islam is the fastest growing religion, people are dropping out of Christianity and other religions, and many of them find their way into Islam... so in general, yes, more people are losing faith that those gaining it, but if you look at Islam, you'll find the ratio of those dropping out to those going in quite in favor of those who embrace ISlam.
abujana1976 2 years ago
If you look at Islam, most of its growth comes from higher than average birthrates. In fact, more people convert to Christianity than Islam, and about 75% of those who enter Islam leaver after 3-5 years.
Even in just raw growth, atheism and agnosticism still outpace both of these religions. And this is without missionaries or any other widespread effort to "convert" people.
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
"75% of those who enter Islam leaver after 3-5 "
For a person who talks about proof and evidence you're taking too much liberty with numbers without giving references for them. You just made the claim that more people convert to Christianity. care to show me a reliable reference for that claim?
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
You really find it more plausible to think that you are simply smarter than Billions of other people dwelling on this planet? And you find it easier to accept that explanation that to say perhaps those people are on to something - I better take a deeper look.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
No, I just find your logic fallacious. I don't find myself to be smarter, but I'm certainly not going to follow what everyone else is doing just because they are
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
"I just find your logic fallacious" Exactly, YOU "find" my logic fallacious, it doesn't mean that is true. You're already conditioned against belief in God or Islam, just as you would argue that I'm conditioned to accept Islam. Doesn't mean my argument is correct, but it certainly doesn't imply that it isn't. Some see my arguments quite compelling, you don't, that's your own business.
abujana1976 2 years ago
The only people who might see your arguments as compelling are either the wary, the already convinced, or yourself. However, its not just my own opinion, but I have even proven to you that your arguments do not follow logic. I have literally shown you, and brought up the names of the fallacies you are using.
I am not conditioned against belief in God. I was born Jewish, to two religious parents, and based on my own research, I gave up faith in God altogether. But you seem to follow like a sheep
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
"The only people who might see your arguments as compelling are either the wary" Again, you're giving an opinion, which I thought there was no place for in a "logical" discussion. It seems you're fine with yourself generalizing and assuming but but you don't hesitate to call me out on my "fallacies" and assumptions.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
"But you seem to follow like a sheep " Thank you for resorting to that kind of language - I said conditioned and you say follow like a sheep, another assumption that you are making about how I came to believe what I believe. Nice!
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
"do we know that God exists, and no other God does?" First you believe that "a god" exists by examining the universe, and then believing that such a God would not leave us wandering aimlessly and would have certainly left us some sort of directions to take our cue from, and you look for those directions. I for one can't believe that God only a few people can truly "know" God, and if a religion is exclusive and by invitation only, I tend to take it off the list. It's solving by elimination.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
You're making assumptions based on no evidence. The truth is if we are created, we don't know if whoever created us is still interfering with us, or even still exists. If you assume, you're being dishonest with yourself
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
You don't know if the creator still exists, but I do, I have the Quran for one. Perhaps you read it, although I "doubt" you read all of it, but even if you did, I'm not going to blame you for not finding a translation as unique as I know the original Quran in Arabic is. And before you ask, if God had revealed the Quran in any language it would have been miraculous in that language and any translation made by man would be lacking, it just happens to be in Arabic.
abujana1976 2 years ago
Telling me "Its true because I think its true" is not an argument. Remember, you approached me, not the other way around. If you are now upset that you are realizing you can't assert what you are trying to assert, don't blame me. Just remember-don't bite off more than you can chew.
Answer me this, why didn't God reveal the Quran in EVERY language?
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
I know what I'm saying isn't "scientific" but I believe it's at least logical and instinctive.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
I think I have shown you how your "logic" is fallacious. It is also not instinctive- if it was, why did Abrahamic monotheism appear only 3000 years ago, out of our 200000+ year history?
Think of how without any scientific instruments of measurements, you would "logically assume" the sun revolves around the earth. Given that this isn't true, it serves as a testament to the fact that humans are prone to get shit dead wrong. So, in my opinion, in place of certainty, all that is left is doubt
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
No, you've shown me that you are not convinced by it, that doesn't make it fallacious.
"It is also not instinctive..." for one who supposedly read the Quran that is a lousy question to ask - in Islam we believe prophets had been sent to all nations all throughout history - for all we know Buddha could have been a prophet and then his people made him into a God. Just because we don't have documented records of those prophets doesn't mean they weren't sent.
abujana1976 2 years ago
"No, you've shown me that you are not convinced by it, that doesn't make it fallacious.
"
You misunderstand. I am not convinced because it IS fallacious.
You may believe that prophets were sent to every nation, but answer me these questions two-What happened to their teachings, and Why did Muhammad "succeed" whereas these so-called prophets didn't?
I recommend that if you want to continue this, lets use PM
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
Oops, sorry, I just realized that I logged in using an old account of mine, this is Psychlopes1976
abujana1976 2 years ago
You think the big bang means there's no god, when even with the big bang,something was floating in space for an eternity without a beginning, and that is something even science can't explain.
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
@freemanrevolution - I'm no scientist, but I always thought "Fact" was the highest state a scientific idea could achieve. I don't think you can say "The earth revolves around the sun" is a theory, now, can you? It was a theory at one point, but now it's a "fact". Am I missing something?
psychlopes1976 2 years ago
If you think that a "fact" is the highest state, then don't bother being a scientist any time soon. The Earth revolving around the sun is not a theory, but this is because its not an idea, or at least no longer is. Centuries ago, when it required us to speculate and gather information, it may have been, but now it is merely an observation, because it requires empirical data.
So, while observations and empirical information are present, they are not ideas. Just results from logic
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
freemanrev..we can safely say that life is real/thus god must also be realised to have a reality/life in all its possabilities reveals the hand that is cause..currently my neighbours are having a party..they havnt said this to me..but going by the loud music..the sounds of people having fun..these indicate to me a party/just so..i see/hear/smell/taste /experience or be aware of other life..knowing its cause/god..is in the main good..i chose to see the good of life as reflecting the good of god
oneundergod 2 years ago
If you choose to see one thing and not the other, thats also intellectual dishonesty.
How do you know your senses are not deceiving you? Haven't you watched the video, and figure out what highflyingdutchman was trying to claim? Direct your complaints to him
freemanrevolution 2 years ago
In the quran Allah (swt) says:
Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion. (3:185)
mhtg4 2 years ago 2
29:64 Quran
"This worldly life is no more than vanity and play, while the abode of the Hereafter is the real life, if they only knew."
HighFlyingDutchman 2 years ago
"he life of this world is but comfort of illusion." (3:185)
This verse does not say that this life is an illusion, the verse says:
"The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing)."
Meaning that you are decieved by its enjoyment, not that you are in a illusionary world, go and study from the salafi scholars instead of HARUN yahya
easyonetwothree 2 years ago
Yes you are referring to Yusuf Ali translation, while i'm using Marmaduke Pickthall....
mhtg4 2 years ago
No Im not refering to Yusuf 'Ali, Im refering to the most authentic translation which is recommended by our 'Ulama, By al-Hilali and Mushin Khan
easyonetwothree 2 years ago
Here is the thing, both translation is basically saying the same thing. webster dictionary illusion is:
1 a obsolete : the action of deceiving b (1) : the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled : misapprehension (2) : an instance of such deception
Do you think its okay for us to fight over translation? Isn't it fitna? for we both agree translation of quran isnt 100% precise.
mhtg4 2 years ago
No but some people want us to believe that this life is illusionary and that everything we see does not exist, rather, it is just a "Dream", and that we will wake up to the real life, this is what these freaks want us to believe
easyonetwothree 2 years ago
Since this world is misleading us, it is fair to say its an illusion. But the catch is that we must keep our mind straight and win the battle, even when the enemy try to deceive (illusion) us
mhtg4 2 years ago
Akhi please leave this philosphy, the salaf didnt do da'wah this way.
easyonetwothree 2 years ago
this is not my philosophy bro,but this may be really real :D
as might also be understood from the verse above,but we cant be sure anyway
just like we can never be sure if there is matter outside or is this life nothing but another dream that we will be waken up when we die
wassalaam
HighFlyingDutchman 2 years ago
Akhi are you serious in your words? What are you doubting here? That this life is real or what? The verse does not say that at all my brother, it says that this life is vanity and play, not that it is a dream or not real, akhi this is a dangerous philosophy, to believe that this life is not real is Kufr(Disbelief), this life is real because Allaah created it, and the life after this life is also real because Allaah created it.
easyonetwothree 2 years ago
No doubt this life is real, for we will be judged by how we conduct ourself here.
but we also have to notice this world is just a testing zone, and it is finite. while the next world is completely different...
This video is saying just that, questioning the limitation of this world.
mhtg4 2 years ago
Yes,Allah Soubhanahou wa Ta'alaa creates this life for us
We just cant be sure in which way
Allahu A'alam
Actually the video is for matterialists,bro
to destroy their hidden "god" matter
wassalaam
HighFlyingDutchman 2 years ago
good thinking...everything could just be an illusion. What we see may be an illusion and it could really be something beyond our imagination. What we smell could be an illusion. etc..etc..
omgodsword 2 years ago
true, but sad, when consider, that we barely can think of our selves, think, to think of reaility and other outside the self stuff.
LifeTraveler32 2 years ago
im wary of oversimplification..what is the brain?
one second its working..next second..'it'..is dead..there is no more electrical signal..but thats only input
just as a dream is electrical;..where the input..i find it easier to feel..we[our brain]is more that the flesh we call me
i feel good..i feel bad..thats based on our imput..but we are about output..what difference can/have we made..what output has resulted from our input?
did we love others/help others..or just helped ourselves?
oneundergod 2 years ago
just imagine if all the sensory neurons going to the brain were cut of,we would still have the same consciousness but without feeling anything about the "outside" universe
that would be like hanging in the darkness of space,
seeing,hearing,smelling,tasting or feeling nothing
but still aware of existence...
HighFlyingDutchman 2 years ago
interesting concept cutting off sensory inputs..its sort of what we are doing..what with watching vidios/tv/adverts/in the visual..or music/radio..in the auditry
then we get into airconditioning/warming when its cold or cooling when hot..little wonder many dont know what is real[anymore]
even such learnings gained from walking/lets drive[or are we being driven]have credit..yet the credit is debt..have plenty/even in scare-city.
little wonder people dont get god.were missing his lessons
oneundergod 2 years ago
the virtual reality or the dreams themselves are enough to get curious about the fact about our lives
sometimes when I do the exact same thing at exact same time day after day,it just makes me think which day is real,is the time really passing by,or "am i still living in the same moment that i lived yesterday "bcs the time passes so quick,yet when you do the same things,it gets something like Déjà vu
and also there are atheist matterialists who are sure about themselves .. :P
HighFlyingDutchman 2 years ago
huh? that just confuses me more...
penfolduk78 2 years ago
what was the thing that had already confused you?
HighFlyingDutchman 2 years ago
Very true, if people define this material life as the only one and real, then they have made a real loss...
zzaarrker 2 years ago
cool you are making vids again mashallah!
theamericanmuslimah 2 years ago 2
thanks sistah X=D
HighFlyingDutchman 2 years ago